Israel Votes: World Jewry – The Invisible Stakeholders

0:00 Join Arc Plus to get ad-free access to every episode of For Heaven's Sake and help support independent Jewish media. Join at arcmedia.org. [musical jingle] You are listening to an Arc Media podcast. For Israelis, it's still October 7th. I think that for the majority of Jews that I meet, they're living still in October 8th.

0:29 This election is about how can you help my October 8th crisis, while for Israelis, how do you help my October 7th crisis? We do not create antisemites. Antisemites create themselves. But what we do impacts on how our friends abroad regard us. It weakens the ability of diaspora Jews to find allies among non-Jews, to stand and defend Israel, and even to defend their own communities.

1:04 There's never been more coverage of Israel in the Jewish world, and never less of it worth trusting. Our Arc Plus members are what allow us to have these conversations honestly, without pulling punches. Join Arc Plus at arcmedia.org. Hi, friends. This is Daniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute, and this is our podcast, For Heaven's Sake, in collaboration with Arc Media.

1:32 Today is Wednesday, October 14th, and our theme under our series Israel Votes, we entitled World Jury, The Invisible Stakeholders. Right now, Yossi, you're in Jerusalem. I'm in Toronto as we're taping this podcast in the midst of a North American tour. And you realize that as we Israelis think about this election nonstop, we analyze it, we listen to every poll.

2:05 We wonder-- I don't know, there's this amazement how there's a stream of news, yet it doesn't seem to change the election results. The blocks are stable. We're watching. We're now a little un- less than two weeks away for what many of us feel is a critical, critical election for our future. But we're not the only players. Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people, Zionism is not principally about recognizing Israel's right to exist. It's about Israel as an integral part of what it means to be a Jew around the world. And as I travel around the world, you meet Jews who, for whom this election is one of the most important elections in their lives.

2:51 Now, in the United States, without doubt, the midterms are also of critical significance, not just for the future of America, but for many Jews, for the future of their role and their place in America. But even more importantly, or a close second, is what's happening in Israel. And this election is gonna determine to what extent they continue to feel that they have a stake or that Israel is still an integral part of their Jewish life.

3:20 And so let's talk about the invisible stakeholders and compare them. And you know, we're not gonna compare in our remarks the far-right diaspora Jew with the far-right Israeli Jew. That's not our primary audience. It's from the Likud, you know, Democrats, Republicans, mainstream Jewish community, and the majority of Israeli Jews. An election with two stakeholders, one visible and one invisible. Yossi, start please.

3:50 Your thoughts on the differences between the two. You know, Daniel, when you opened with the date, it occurred to me thirteen days, and my stomach dropped. And I've never felt this way about any election. There's never been an Israeli event that I felt in some way my future is really hanging in the balance.

4:17 And so maybe before getting into the substance of the question, looking at what are the issues that are exercising Israelis, what are the issues that are on the diaspora agenda with this election, I'd like to just speak even a little personally about what this election means to me and why I'm living in such a state of anxiety, acute anxiety.

4:42 And I think it's true for very many Israelis, especially in our camp, Daniel, in, in the broad opposition. And the opposition in Israel, and I think this is important for people abroad to understand, is not left. It has a left component, but the Israeli opposition goes from left to center to right. It really is a kind of mini national unity government.

5:08 So when I speak as somebody coming from the opposition, I'm trying to be as broad as possible in what are the issues that are concerning us. But again, before getting into the issues, what is the sensibility? What is the anxiety here? And I think that for the opposition, what's at stake is nothing less than the future of startup nation, the viability of startup nation.

5:36 And if this coalition or some semblance of this government comes back to power, my greatest worry is that we're going to see a mass emigration, especially of young people, especially of young secular Israelis, uh, the backbone of startup nation and future startup nation. And what really underlies that anxiety is a question Of can our children live normal lives? Or look, there's no such thing as normal in Israel. It's all relative. But can our children live in the cracks of crazy Israel and find some semblance of normalcy? And you know, lately, every time I'm in Tel Aviv, I feel this heartache. I look at these great kids. What do they want?

6:34 They want what kids want in New York, in Paris. They wanna be able to have a reasonable life. They wanna be able to party sometimes. They wanna be able to have good jobs. And at the same time, they're ready to defend Israel. They're ready to do what they have to do. But life here is so difficult just objectively, and then you factor in the insanity that we are causing to ourselves.

7:04 For me, this election is about my kids being able to stay in Israel, and their friends being able to find a normal life here, and I've never felt that way before, with all of the ups and downs, with all of the conflicts. And so I think it's, for me it's important to just put out there what Israelis like me are feeling as this election is getting closer.

7:29 You know, a- as you were talking, first I was waiting for you to say your kids, 'cause I know how personal this is. And it's personal for all of us. You know, but it's not just your kids, Yossi. I participated a seminar, really a critical seminar for my growth and thought about Israel at the institute.

7:48 It's called Israeli Values, in which we talk about what is it that we believe Israelis are thinking about, and what Torah do we have to produce to engage Israelis and the central challenges that they face? And very often the way the seminar starts is we go around, there's 14 people in the seminar, and say, "What are you thinking about? What are you experiencing? What are you hearing?"

8:11 Uh, very much like what you just started today. And a group of individuals, not in their 20s, 30s, people in their 40s, just on their own, in Jerusalem, not just in Tel Aviv, were talking about how often they were participating in conversations in which people were asking themselves, "Is it time to move?"

8:35 Now, these people were not planning on moving, but this was the milieu, the, the environment in which they were living. This was a viable option. It's part of a conversation. And it reminds me, I don't know, you weren't in Israel in the early '70s when, uh, we moved here. There was a mass, mass emigration from Israel. Tremendous, what Israelis call yerida, going down.

9:01 You know, since Israel is the center of the world, when you move to Israel you go up, and when you leave Israel you go down. And it caused Rabin then to call those who are leaving, I don't know, the dung of bugs or something, somehow trying to [laughs] to sway the sentiment. The waste, the fallen waste of Israeli society [laughs].

9:20 Yeah, that's a nicer way to say it. Um, but it was remarkable how many people, and this is a group of people not, as you said, and I really liked your framing, that the opposition is a national unity opposition. These are people, this included settlers, people from the right, people from the left. A whole spectrum of people are in this. And how prevalent the conversation was.

9:43 The only disagreement I have with you is that I don't think the question is only whether they, it's the future of startup nation. I think for them it's a question of the future of their home. Right. It's just like, does this feel- Yes... like the type of country that shares my ideals, my values, my aspirations? Yeah, you know, by startup nation I really mean the Israeli success story. In all of its...

10:08 And, and, and you're right, it's not only the literal meaning of startup nation, it's the broad expression of the extraordinary story we've built here. Yeah. Of the type of life we've been able to build despite the danger which is always around the corner. Okay, so we wanted to start with the invisible stockholders, but Yossi, you wanted a voice for the visible stockholders.

10:32 Right. Got you. Right. And it's true, and we have to-- It's part of the story. And by the way, for many of the invisible stockholders, it's not a question of whether they're gonna leave, 'cause they're not here. But there is a question of whether they're gonna continue to have a relationship. So the similarity really starts there. Right.

10:52 To what extent Israel is gonna be a continuous, vibrant, vital part of their lives as Jews or as, in the visible ones, as Israelis. No, that's, that's a really important point, because what you're saying then is [laughs] that for liberal Zionists in the diaspora, the equivalent in terms of how they're relating to this election is also whether they will be able to continue to find a spiritual home in Israel, whether Israel will in some way be an extension for them of home.

11:22 Right. Okay, so now let's more specifically, yes. So let's look at what the issues are for the Israeli opposition, and what the issues are, let's say, for liberal Zionists in the diaspora. So for us here, probably the most urgent and immediate issue, and, uh, Eisenkot says this is going to be the very first move he's going to do if and when he becomes prime minister, is establish a commission of inquiry into October 7th.

11:56 The urgency for that, I think, is this need that we all have to move on. We've spoken about this. We spoke about it last week. Until there isn't a self-inquiry- Into how did this happen? What is our takeaway? How do we make sure that we don't repeat the same mistakes? We're going to remain stuck in October 7th.

12:19 So the first item on the agenda for the opposition, which God willing will be the coalition, is moving past October 7th by an immersion into what went wrong. That's the first issue. The second, and Eisenkot and Bennett certainly, uh, make this very clear, the second issue right behind the first is to immediately begin to reordering the relationship between the state and the, uh, Haredi, the ultra-Orthodox community, specifically to begin cutting off the massive infusion of funds.

13:01 And the [laughs] I'd say hovering over this agenda is some, the most visceral longing of the entire opposition, which is getting rid of Netanyahu, forcing Netanyahu into retirement. So that's, that I would say, you know, on the most minimal level, these are the three issues, longings that unite the opposition.

13:28 You know, Yossi, as you're talking, with the exception of the third World Jewry has a completely different-- That's not their agenda. It interests them, but it's- Completely different. Completely different. Yeah. So I think that for World Jewry, maybe the most urgent, immediate issue is stopping the settler violence, and I think that that is a priority for the opposition, but it isn't the first few issues that they're going to deal with.

13:55 I think it's the next level of issue. In the diaspora, I think it's to stop the disgrace of the good name of the Jewish people that diaspora Jews are living with every day. They see the violence. It's-- There was just a segment on 60 Minutes. Israelis don't have a clue that this is going on. They don't have a clue of how the settler violence is reshaping the image of Israel and by extension of the Jewish people, that this is an historic disaster for the Jewish people.

14:31 And we know, and, and here I'm, I'm speaking again broadly for the opposition, we're angry that this is happening. We want it to stop. We intend to stop it. But it doesn't have that same urgency, I think, that it has for diaspora Jews and by extension, movement on the Palestinian front, especially Gaza, which Israelis are hardly thinking about.

14:58 Aside from you, Daniel, I don't know really anyone who's seriously thinking about the peace board in Gaza. You have lots of people on the right here who are thinking about, "How are we going to renew the fighting against Hamas?" But within the opposition, you know, I think there's this feeling of, "Okay, there's a prolonged ceasefire. I don't want to think about it." You have to get out more, Yossi, and meet my people, I mean.

15:23 Meet all six of us who are thinking about this. That's right. That's right. But you see, in the diaspora, you're probably closer to a majority. Yeah. And that's part of the gap between us. The gap here. If I would speak about the invisible stakeholders, I think pointing to settler violence and movement on the Palestinian front is critical.

15:46 But I actually believe the biggest issue is your third, and it is just not Netanyahu. They're all connected. You mentioned to somehow resurrect the good name. I'd like to frame this a little bit, that last week we spoke about how for Israelis it's still October 7th. October 7th is the present. I think that for the majority of Jews that I meet, they're living still in October 8th. October 8th is the present. The diaspora Jews. But it's just getting- You're talking- In the dia- World Jewry Mm-hmm.

16:20 For World Jewry. And what do I mean by that? For us, October 7th is the present, but we're in a better place 'cause even though we didn't have a national inquiry as to what happened, still Hamas is weaker, Hezbollah is weaker. The fear of October 7th is there, but we're in a stronger place right now. I don't know whether that's the case with Iran or not.

16:44 But overall, October 7th is defining our consciousness, but it's defining it also from a position of strength, of reclaiming our deterrence and reclaiming certain capabilities. But for World Jewry, October 8th, which was when the condemnation of Israel, the condemnation of Israel as a colonial power which deserves October 7th, the undermining of the legitimacy of Zionism and even of Jews who are Zionists, as our colleague Elliot Cosgrove, we've spoken about it, you know, saying, "This is my Judaism.

17:23 It's like Zionism has done-- You distinguish between Jew and Zionist. This is part of my Judaism, just like Shabbos is." The sense that I could invalidate your principles, it starts on October 8th. The sense of fear or insecurity starts on October 8th, but it's just gotten worse. While we've had three years of struggle, the reality is that the enemies of Zionism, and in many ways also the enemies of Jews, are far more prominent. They're winning their primaries in many areas. What's gonna happen?

18:00 Who's gonna win in the midterms in the United States? Very often, Jews have to decide what do they think is the worst danger for Israel. Is the worst danger for Israel- A Al-Sayyed in Michigan? Or is it Trump? And they're making these distinctions because October 8th is defining them, and it's cascading And it's not only the what's dangerous for Israel, it's what's dangerous for themselves- For them... with- That's correct.

18:25 Yeah. Thank you for adding that, 'cause that's correct. That's even what I meant to say. It's my life is insecure. I'm in an October 8th- Yeah... which is just getting worse. Just getting worse. That's a really important insight. Really important insight. And what's happening for them is, well, we want to ensure in Israel that another October 7th doesn't happen, and that's why we want a national inquiry.

18:49 For the average North American Jew, for example, and I haven't spoken, but I'm sure Jews around the world, Australia, anywhere, Britain, France, how do I reclaim my place of safety? My place as being a respected, valued part of the society within which I live? And Israel is the source of a certain defaming of the Jewish story.

19:15 And so for them, as you're looking at this election, are you gonna give me an Israel that I could be proud of? Are you gonna give me an Israel that I could present to my friends? That my friends are gonna look at it and say, "Yes, this is a great country"? And as a result, for many North American Jews, just not Netanyahu is as central as it is for you.

19:38 Hilltop Youth is an expression of the moral abominations that are being advocated for or allowed by this government, by Netanyahu. The toxicity of Netanyahu, the... Give me another face. Like, even if the policies don't change- Right. Right. Right... give me somebody else, 'cause I want to walk as a lover of Israel and a Zionist. I want to be safe, and I want to be proud in America, and in Canada, and in England, and in Australia, and wherever it might be. But I don't feel that right now. So this election is about how can you help my October 8th crisis?

20:20 While for Israelis, how do you help my October 7th crisis? We'll be right back. This show exists because we think that disagreement, done honestly, is how you actually learn something. Arc Plus members make that possible. When you join, you're funding independent coverage of Israel and Jewish life across the whole Arc Media network.

20:45 You also get ad-free listening in this show, and member exclusive content on Call Me Back, Arc News Daily, and Chosen People Problems. If For Heaven's Sake has been a resource for you to understand Israel and the Jewish world, consider becoming a member. Join Arc Plus at arcmedia.org And we're back. You know, Israelis are certainly aware, I would even say acutely aware and interested, in the rise of this feeling of vulnerability that Jews everywhere around the world feel, and that Israelis experience when we travel abroad.

21:28 And so they're aware of that, but I don't think that they're aware of just how urgent that is in terms of their ability to sustain an intimate relationship with Israel. I don't, I don't think that most Israelis get that. And certainly they don't understand the connection with this election. But I'd like to just focus on what you were saying before about Netanyahu, because I think this is also revealing in terms of what it is that diaspora Jews detest about his leadership, and what Israelis detest, and it's not necessarily the same thing.

22:10 For diaspora Jews, you know, as, as you were really saying, Netanyahu is the face of the disgraceful Israel. Netanyahu is the face that disgraces Israel in the world. Israelis are kind of aware of that, but most Israelis will say, "Well, it doesn't really matter who the prime minister's going to be, they'll hate us anyway." Even on the opposition, that's a prevailing sentiment.

22:36 What Israelis are so enraged about with Netanyahu is what he has done to the national ethos, what he has done to our solidarity, to our ability to hold on to a shared value system of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, uh, his assault on Israel's democratic institutions. This is what concerns the opposition. Uh, what he has done to the ethos of responsibility. You know, he's the first leader, the first prime minister that we have had who never takes responsibility.

23:14 I read this recently, that every Israeli prime minister has appointed a commission of inquiry at some point during their term in office. Every one. He's our longest serving prime minister, 19 years, not a single commission of inquiry. And so what that tells you- That's because, Yossi, it didn't take us long for you to focus on Netanyahu, [laughs] even though we're supposed to be focusing on the invisible stakeholder. No, but it's, it's, it, it is.

23:40 But Netanyahu... No, I'm with you. It is. [laughs] But the only reason is, is Netanyahu, there was nothing to inquire. You know? There was nothing. That's right. That's right. It's not his fault that nothing happened. What do you want from him? You know? You're blaming him- Right. Right... for nothing. Or whatever did happen is everybody else's fault. So- Yes. That was also said... so it's really interesting when you think about what it means to be a lover of Israel and living abroad, and what it means to be a lover of Israel living in Israel. And what happens here, the texture of Israeli life- becomes the most important issue, and naturally so.

24:17 And for Jews abroad, the way that Israel projects itself in the world, which also of course reflects on them, is naturally the most important issue. And so- Right. And paradoxically, Yossi, even people in the opposition still believe that Netanyahu, because he speaks with the right accent, is still a great spokesman f- person for Israel, and they don't understand how alienating he is.

24:44 He doesn't speak a value language. His aggressiveness, his projection of arrogance, he's lost so much of the world, but he has a good accent. Yair Lapid could attack Eisenkot for his poor English- Yes... as opposed to Netanyahu. And Eisenkot's- Yeah, exactly... basic response was- So they still think that Netanyahu is the great spokesperson, 'cause they still think, by the way, that it's all public relations.

25:08 You know, "We just need a good spokesperson." And Eisenkot's response, though, Eisenkot had a very good response, which is, "With my English, I will be able to defend Israel far better than Mr. Golden Tongue with his English." With his English. And so, uh, yeah Let, as we're talking about this election from different perspectives, you raised this beforehand, but let's think about it more strategically.

25:31 Do you believe that Israelis need to take into account this invisible stakeholder? 'Cause Israelis are, in my language, we're in October 7th, world Jewry's in October 8th. We're in different worlds. We see Netanyahu different. Our problems are different naturally. But to what extent should these invisible stakeholders become a more central part of an Israeli conversation, or not?

25:59 No, it's a, it's, it's- Like, even think about your kids... I see. It's... Yeah, no, absolutely. Look, the positive change that's happened here since October 7th in the Israeli relationship to the diaspora is that they're paying attention. Israelis really are noticing what's happening in the diaspora, and they're concerned.

26:18 The less positive side of that is that they're concerned only about antisemitism. They haven't yet made the transition to the next step of saying, "Well, you know, we really ought to be taking diaspora Jews seriously. What do they think? They've been living through this just as we have." All right, in a different way, but each of us has experienced October 7th and its aftermath in, um, different forms of crisis.

26:50 And October 7th was the first time in the history of the Israeli diaspora relationship where Israel was at war, and both diaspora and Israel were experiencing variations of crisis. And that hasn't, we haven't connected the dots there yet. That, I think, needs to really be the next step, and certainly for us as, at the Hartman Institute, you know, we are really, if only by default, we are the [laughs] the preeminent institution that's sitting on the fault line between Israel and the diaspora.

27:30 This is where the conversations happen. And I think we really need to try to figure out, how do we help Israelis, who are now finally paying attention to the diaspora, expand their awareness and really begin asking themselves questions? For example, how does what we do here impact on their lives? Now, this is, for Israelis, this is a very complicated question because if you so much as hint to Israelis that what we do here creates antisemitism, you will get the legitimate outraged pushback that Jews don't create antisemitism, and I believe that that's true.

28:13 But that's not the end of the conversation. Yes, we do not create antisemites. Antisemites create themselves. But what we do impacts on how our friends abroad regard us. It weakens the ability of diaspora Jews to find allies among non-Jews, to stand and defend Israel, and even to defend their own communities.

28:41 And so we have to start taking responsibility for how we project and how that impacts on the psychological well-being of the diaspora, and sometimes not only the psychological well-being, sometimes the, the physical well-being. You know, going back to your favorite subject, Netanyahu, [laughs] for a moment, Netanyahu is the first prime minister in Israel who really advocated the position that we don't need diaspora or world Jewry.

29:16 We have the evangelicals. We don't need you. That's correct. He said, "You're not a strategic asset anymore." Yeah. Now, throughout the history of Zionism, Israelis have always been ambivalent about Jews who live around the world 'cause as I said beforehand, to move to Israel is to rise. To leave Israel is to go down.

29:36 The center of the world is Israel, and you have to live here. And if you don't live here, you're missing the most vibrant and important moment and event in Jewish history. You're a spectator. We are the players. Israelis have great difficulty recognizing that Jews have multiple homes. They much prefer your term diaspora. I don't use that term. You know, they prefer, "You're a diaspora. We're home, and you're diaspora."

30:03 But even though they saw this disparity, from the beginning, Israelis understood that they need world Jewry That even though we're the center, world Jewry is an integral part of our security, our survival, our political viability. And all Israeli prime ministers and Israeli leaders developed that relationship and nurtured it to the extent that every single leadership, if you're part of a leadership group, even though you're members of some mikvah council somewhere [laughs] if you get a, a leadership, the prime minister will speak to you.

30:46 Like world Jewry have access to our leaders. Like you go try to meet the prime minister or the defense minister, but if you're from some small little synagogue and federation calls you a leadership mission, you have access. It was part of the cultivation and a recognition that not that it's simply ideologically we're one people, but that begrudgingly we need you. The first one who overtly said, "We don't need you anymore-" Hmm. Hmm...

31:15 you're not my ally," was Netanyahu. Yes. And Israelis have been influenced by that. And part of this question of this invisible stakeholder is to what extent Israelis are gonna understand not merely that what we do impacts world Jewry, as you said, and it's not a merely, it's what does it mean to be a part of a Jewish people?

31:36 And Jewish peoplehood is an integral part of what it means to be a Jew, this sense of collective responsibility and loyalty. But to what extent are we gonna create a realignment or a return back to our strategic assessment of world Jewry as critical for the viability of Israel? It's so self-evident right now as the world, we're losing so many friends and so many allies, how critical it is that the Jewish people still remain our allies and advocate for us.

32:10 But that understanding that what we do impacts world Jewry is not just because we owe them, but also how do we turn back the Netanyahu move of saying, "Ah- Right. Right... there's, there's only- You know, it's interesting though... there's only six million of you. There's 80 million evangelicals." And then we now realize that evangelical millennials are just like Jewish millennials, and Vance and it, like isolationism is- Right... hitting there, too. So who do we count on?

32:39 These invisible stakeholders are our allies, and I think Israelis under Netanyahu have forgotten their security significance to us. No, it's interesting, but I, my sense is that October 7th created a big shift in Israeli consciousness. And even Netanyahu, I can't recall hearing Netanyahu say anything like that since October 7th.

33:04 I'm wondering if, I, I mean, Netanyahu will never say he was wrong, but the fact that he's not repeating that mantra, I, I wonder if that in itself isn't an indication that he's pulled back from that position. But, um, I think that there have been deep shifts in how Israelis view the diaspora, and I do use the word diaspora, and I once would have used the word Galut, which means, uh, exile.

33:36 In my more, uh, right-wing Zionist days, I would have said Galut, and you'll certainly still hear that on the Israeli right. But so I see the diaspora as a happy compromise between exile and no diaspora. Jews living abroad are not in any diaspora. They're completely at, at home. We can argue that. But what I do see in Israeli discourse is a very subtle shift toward legitimizing the diaspora.

34:07 Now, when you started this conversation way, way at the beginning [laughs], you used the word yerida, and you explain it means going down, and that's how Israelis would refer to emigres. You're going down from the land of Israel. Israelis don't use that word anymore. Israelis on the right, on the religious right, will still say yerida. What do Israelis say today about emigration?

34:33 What's the word that they use? Relocation. Relocation. Relocation. You just have to say it in Hebrew. And that's exactly how it's used in Hebrew. And so if you were to say yerida among contemporary, certainly secular circles, but not only, not only, I think even in, in moderate religious circles, yerida, it sounds like one of those, you know, fuddy-duddy Hebrew names that Israeli parents no longer give their children, you know?

35:04 [laughs] And so there's a shift, a linguistic shift, which I think points to something deeper, especially since October 7th, and that is a certain humility in Israeli consciousness. We know we have screwed up so badly. Now e- everyone in Israel will give you a different reason for why we screwed up, but there is a very broad consensus here that we have screwed up this story.

35:32 And so there's this sense of, of when we face the diaspora, it's not with the old hubris. We know that we're not the end all and be all of Jewish history. We, we understand that, and we know that we came very close to blowing it on October 7th. So, so I think that this change in language is also indicative of a very necessary toning down of the old Israeli arrogance toward the diaspora. You know, today it's 13 days.

36:06 By the time this podcast falls, it'll be 12 days. My stomach just dropped again, Daniel. [laughs] We really have to tell the truth. In 12 days, we're gonna have a critical election, both for the visible and the invisible stockholders and stakeholders. We'll keep on watching I have to keep on traveling and talking.

36:22 I'll be back in Israel right before the election, of course, to vote. But it's just with all the struggle, the attention that Israel still has, the importance that Israel has, these invisible stakeholders want to be stockholders. They want a stake here. And whether this election will help them or not, or increase the difficulty for them, like for your children, 12 days away. But Yossi, it was a pleasure, really a pleasure talking to you about it.

36:52 Great to speak with you, Daniel. Thank you. Imagine a gap year that's not a detour, but a launchpad. At the Shalom Hartman Institute's Havruta Gap Year Program, students spend a year after high school in the heart of Jerusalem, immersed in serious Beit Midrash learning with Hartman's world-class faculty, including leaders such as Donil Hartman, Tal Becker, and Ilana Steinhain.

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37:36 Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute. Join the Hartman Institute in person on Israel's election day. Tal Becker will sit in conversation with Abigail Pogrebin on Tuesday, October 27th at 6 p.m. in New York City. Tal and Abigail will look beyond the headlines to consider what the election results might reveal about Israelis today and about Israel's future. Learn more and register at the link in the show notes.

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