102. Women Betray Too

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcasts was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Huel, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Huel. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: Hello everyone, welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: This is Marty and today I have two guests with me and this is going to be a really special episode.

1:32 [SPEAKER_03]: It's something we haven't done before. [SPEAKER_03]: This podcast is all about the trail trauma that as you all know. [SPEAKER_03]: Typically we are seeing mostly situations where the betrayer is a man and the betrayed partner is a woman. [SPEAKER_03]: And we all know that this is not always the case, and that there are a lot of betrayed men out there, and there's a lot of women who betray their partners.

1:57 [SPEAKER_03]: So today I am very privileged to have with me a woman who is going to share her story of [SPEAKER_03]: what it's been like for her as a female betrayer. [SPEAKER_03]: And I also have with me an expert in the field who specializes in women who betray. [SPEAKER_03]: So go on and I start with Patty.

2:15 [SPEAKER_03]: Patty, why don't you introduce yourself and let us know why you decided to come here today and have this conversation. [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you, Melanie. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me on today. [SPEAKER_02]: It is a bit nerve wracking. [SPEAKER_02]: This feels like the most sort of public presentation I've made of myself since really kind of starting to work on this aspect of my life.

2:35 [SPEAKER_02]: So I do identify as a sex addict and a sex and love addict and I've been. [SPEAKER_02]: working on those aspects of my life and recovery for about the past three years or so. [SPEAKER_02]: But this is a pattern that's been present in my life early since I was a teenager since I was very young.

2:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know how we got associated with helping couples heal. [SPEAKER_02]: I am married and infidelity has been a big part of our story about my story. [SPEAKER_02]: And we have been in active recovery as [SPEAKER_02]: some of my infidelity and marketing, I'll just a little over three to go.

3:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And we floundered for quite a while in the recovery space. [SPEAKER_02]: There's not a lot of resources out there for women betrayers and male betrayed partners. [SPEAKER_02]: And we were lucky enough to be introduced to the helping couple's heel podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: I'd say maybe a little over two years ago.

3:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And that really brought a lot of answers to questions that we'd work finding elsewhere. [SPEAKER_02]: So the concepts that you've talked about on here with Dr. Minwala and the partner trauma model and really the integrity of abuse piece. [SPEAKER_02]: I think was the missing component for us that really brought some language and some real help to the situation that, you know, there are some answers in my story in the sex addiction recovery world.

3:58 [SPEAKER_02]: but there were a lot of things that were still not answered, and I think the integrity of use piece and really the partner trauma recovery model has really helped us take the next steps in our recovery. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I really wanted to be able to come on and share a little bit of my story and our story.

4:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Really just to help more women know that there are resources out there for us and really just to provide some more information for people so that they know that there's places [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks, Patty. [SPEAKER_03]: Before I introduce our expert, I want to also acknowledge how vulnerable this is for you to come on and share your story in this way and you will be helping a lot of people, but I just want to say, breathe and I do recognize that this is really brave, so thank you.

4:44 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for being here. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not the easiest things to share about yourself, but I think it's important. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why I'm here. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: All right, so now I would love to introduce Judith, can you please share with us a little bit about you and the work that you do and why you decided to join us for this conversation today.

5:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, thanks, Marty for having me and yeah, piggyback on what you said, I wanted to acknowledge you for your courage, Patty, like I know it takes a lot and I know that this is going to help a lot of women. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm Judith Nissenson, and I'm a certified betrayal trauma coach, and here recently, I decided to just work mainly with women betrayers.

5:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason that is is because there's not many outlets for them out there. [SPEAKER_01]: So my husband is a betrayal shrink, and I'm Nissenson, and he and I just started working together to help couples who are in this different dynamic [SPEAKER_03]: want to tell us a little bit about what you typically see in your practice, what you've learned since you've been doing this work.

5:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So I started doing this work starting this year. [SPEAKER_01]: I shift it from working with the trail trauma women who were betrayed and now I'm working with women who are betrayers and what I'm noticing the first thing of course is that there is not much out there. [SPEAKER_01]: One of the nuances that I also notice is that the biggest question that I get asked is do men and women cheat for the same reasons?

6:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm discovering that it's not true. [SPEAKER_01]: Way different for both of them. [SPEAKER_01]: So I would love to talk a little bit about those nuances here. [SPEAKER_01]: And Patty, I want to, you know, kind of get into your brain to see how that kind of relates to you. [SPEAKER_01]: I also want to teach women on how they're not broken.

6:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to normalize the conversation [SPEAKER_01]: we've been hiding for way too long and in that hiding week fail to heal. [SPEAKER_01]: What I'm noticing with the women that do come to me is that there are a lot of old betrayals, meaning I have 60 year old, 70 year olds who betray their husbands 20, 30, 40 years ago and they're just now doing the work.

6:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So their whole marriage has been this whole chaotic trying to figure out what is what? [SPEAKER_01]: And they've been miserable. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, I think it's very necessary to normalize this conversation so that women don't wait 20, 30 decades to find the healing. [SPEAKER_01]: And not only that, the husbands, they're also lost.

7:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So imagine living in that betrayal trauma for decades, that's not a life. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and also if we look at the collective socialization of both men and women, each gender is put into a specific camp about what's supposed to be normalized around sex, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And the men are supposed to be the ones that are conquesting, like they're the ones that are dominating women and having lots of sex.

7:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's all okay. [SPEAKER_03]: They could do that. [SPEAKER_03]: And the women are supposed to be the ones that are [SPEAKER_03]: actually women's sexuality often is sort of like secondary to men, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Even early on, I think years ago, I think this is changing, but girls are taught that their role in sex is to please the men.

7:49 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very mixed message, my knee because we're also taught that that is a lot of our value, right? [SPEAKER_02]: That our value is being attractive and desirable and sexual, but only with our targeted partner, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And so we're supposed to navigate this world of knowing that that's where our value lies or believing, being taught that that's where our value lies, but then somehow containing and controlling that, [SPEAKER_02]: and directing that towards a single individual person.

8:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is really a difficult task. [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it sets up for some challenges for sure. [SPEAKER_03]: So Patty, can you take us back a little bit and share a bit about your story and maybe some of the things that you have learned about yourself on this journey? [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, and a question in a nutshell.

8:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah, of course, none of this is information that I really knew about myself three years ago. [SPEAKER_02]: This has been a tremendous road of discovery since the beginning of this, you know, journey along with my husband. [SPEAKER_02]: There has been a lot of discovery about.

8:53 [SPEAKER_02]: patterns that developed early in my life and maybe things that had dramatically impacted me in my life that I didn't really acknowledge early. [SPEAKER_02]: I did say that I was broken. [SPEAKER_02]: I did paint myself as a broken person that I was just damaged and didn't function properly because I didn't carry with me a lot of what people call like the big tea traumas, you know, like I wasn't [SPEAKER_02]: abused as a child.

9:20 [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't technically neglected. [SPEAKER_02]: My parents were married and stayed married. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, text book wise, you would think I checked all the boxes for having a normal healthy upbringing. [SPEAKER_02]: So it wasn't really, and so I had the chance to kind of dive in a little bit deeper than I did recognize that some of the things that I did experience as a child, [SPEAKER_02]: We're not normal and we're not healthy and helpful in in raising me to be able to have, you know, good belief in myself and good confidence in self esteem.

9:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And so my father was a very caring person, but not in he was an older father when I came along kind of late in the game. [SPEAKER_02]: And so both of my parents were very detached. [SPEAKER_02]: There was not a lot of emotional support. [SPEAKER_02]: It was a very quiet household. [SPEAKER_02]: Children were kind of seen and not heard.

10:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And that sort of an environment, pretty rigid rules and regulations that we followed. [SPEAKER_02]: And my father was also absolutely worked and so the value that I was really taught from an early age was the work concepts, right? [SPEAKER_02]: We're all hard workers. [SPEAKER_02]: That's where your value is.

10:27 [SPEAKER_02]: You work hard. [SPEAKER_02]: You support yourself like those were the values that were instilled in me at an early age. [SPEAKER_02]: So I there was a lot of, I think, attention, missing from my life when I was younger, where I sort of sought outside sources for a lot of praise and validation and so I would get that from [SPEAKER_02]: coaches or teachers or other people that were kind of authority figures to me and other than my parents, right, and, you know, it was probably in my early teenagers that I [SPEAKER_02]: started to, I think there was a movie that came out a few years ago that was titled like the summer I turned pretty or something like that.

11:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And I can think back on that. [SPEAKER_02]: It was, you know, like the summer I turned 14. [SPEAKER_02]: And all of a sudden that was a way that I could get attention from people and praise and validation and all of the things that I think we're missing in my life. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was a pretty little girl.

11:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And that got me into [SPEAKER_02]: groups and circles and acceptance that I hadn't had before. [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of struggled to fit in as a kid. [SPEAKER_02]: I was smart, but I was athletic and then I just didn't really fit in any particular box, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: And so all of a sudden, my looks were something that could get me accepted into some of those circles, you know.

11:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that kind of started to develop into a little bit of a monster. [SPEAKER_02]: I started noticing that I could have control over people and over situations by using my looks and my physical traits. [SPEAKER_02]: And unfortunately, I had a traumatic incident when I was 15.

12:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I was the victim of a sexual assault. [SPEAKER_02]: but I didn't really recognize it as that at the time. [SPEAKER_02]: I put myself in a situation with people much older than myself and I was taken advantage of. [SPEAKER_02]: But at the time, I really took the ownership of that and I said, you know, I put myself in this position.

12:19 [SPEAKER_02]: what happened to me happened to me because of the choices I made and I didn't talk to anybody about it and I didn't share that with any not a soul not anyone on my friends no one in my family and it wasn't really until I was even in my 30s that I could actually look at that and say that that was a sexual assault you know for most of my life I just carried it as that was my first time and it sucked but it was my fault right it was my choice.

12:44 [SPEAKER_03]: So you're saying that the first time that you were sexual or that you had in our course was a sexual assault? [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm Patty. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was with an older person, Stranger, and there was alcohol involved, which I'd never consumed alcohol before.

13:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was provided to me by these people. [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, so I carried that really for a very long time without really acknowledging what it was. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think very soon after that, like literally weeks or months after that is when I started down a path of a lot of promiscuity.

13:21 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm looking back on it now and in talking now with their festival that it seems like it's not uncommon for that to be a choice that's made. [SPEAKER_02]: It's maybe not a conscious decision. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it was a conscious decision at the time, but women I think that undergo something like that very often either lean towards being very conservative and rigid and not wanting to have any kind of sexual content.

13:48 [SPEAKER_02]: or I think in my instance, I wanted to somewhat normalize it. [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to dilute the incident by just, if I expose myself, it doesn't mean it's match right. [SPEAKER_02]: If I go have a lot of sex now, then that incident doesn't matter as much and it's not as traumatic. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just something I do now, right?

14:08 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that was the path that I very unintentionally but, you know, like as a coping mechanism, just kind of went down that path. [SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of promiscuity through high school, you know, reputations that develop around that type of thing and then walling off. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's where I think the beginning of the sequence sexual basement started for me.

14:29 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, no one been my family knew that I was doing those things. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I really close friends knew that I was doing that. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a lot of [SPEAKER_02]: Secret sexual partners as the teenager boys that I would just go drop by their house and like nobody knew what was happening.

14:44 [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't boyfriends, right. [SPEAKER_02]: These were just like secret little rendezvouss that I was having at a very young age. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this was like 1617. [SPEAKER_03]: So if you weren't telling people and this was secret, what I make up is that it felt shameful. [SPEAKER_03]: There was something about this that didn't feel right for you because girls do talk to each other and share lots of things especially when they're excited about things and if you'll proud of themselves, right?

15:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was not this. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, looking back. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I felt immediate shame about it, but I knew that it was something that other people wouldn't approve of. [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: I knew that that was behavior that would not be acceptable to my family who was very conservative and to most of my friends who would have probably at least in my eyes looked down on that home of behavior.

15:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Then thought I did have friends that turned away for me because of my reputation. [SPEAKER_02]: And my response to that was just to put up more walls and I really convinced myself that I was somehow this kind of evolved person, you know, where I was like, this is what a modern woman is right that she doesn't need these boundaries and these kind of stereotypical like guardrails that we've placed on women like I kind of took this stance of like.

16:00 [SPEAKER_02]: liberalism and feminism and sideway. [SPEAKER_02]: Here I am, and this is just how I am and deal with a kind of thing, but really underneath, I think there was a lot of pain that just didn't ever really get processed. [SPEAKER_02]: So my infidelity started really as soon as I started having relationships from my very first boy friends, was very rare that I would have any kind of consistent monogamy with a partner.

16:24 [SPEAKER_02]: And that led to a lot of [SPEAKER_02]: You know, even relationships that I really wanted to have and I wanted them to work. [SPEAKER_02]: I loved these people. [SPEAKER_02]: I just I could not refrain from outside behaviors. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, I felt broken like this was just too.

16:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I was and I wasn't. [SPEAKER_02]: someone capable of being monogamous or faithful to anyone. [SPEAKER_02]: And that led into my first marriage. [SPEAKER_02]: And for the first couple years of that marriage, I was staying faithful and I was being monogamous and not relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: Although, you know, I look back on that now.

17:01 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm certain that there were behaviors that were inappropriate that I was doing. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure I was still flirting with people. [SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: speaking inappropriately to people and putting myself in situations that were probably inappropriate, even though there wasn't any physical acting out at the time, but then that pretty quickly dissolved after the first couple years into a progressive escalation of [SPEAKER_02]: physical affairs until that was discovered after about six years of marriage and my first husband really wanted to stay and wanted to work three things and this is a hard one for me because I couldn't do it I didn't want to do it at that time and I just ran

17:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I did a lot of gas lighting at the time, really saying that it was all on him that he had made me feel certain ways and was neglectful and mistreating me, which really was true, but I convinced myself of that. [SPEAKER_02]: I just ran, you know, and I didn't do any work on myself, didn't recognize the need to do any work on myself, and just believed that I could start another relationship after a couple of years, and that everything would be better, even though I hadn't actually addressed any of the problems.

18:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And so as patterns do, it came back again, and after a couple years of cutting myself on the back for keeping my behaviors in check, then everything started [SPEAKER_02]: I am currently married and rehabilitating that marriage at this point. [SPEAKER_02]: So the difference in this one is, I mean, it's uncanny how similar marriage to was to marriage one.

18:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And the sense that the same kind of escalation, the same patterns, like almost to the T. And literally the day that my current husband, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: it was kind of a maker break situation. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was literally about to walk out the door to go stay at the same hotel where I stayed when I left my first husband.

18:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was about to literally do the same exact thing. [SPEAKER_02]: And something was different this time in the way that my husband looked at me and just he didn't want me to leave. [SPEAKER_02]: and I chose to say that was the big difference. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I didn't run this time and that led to a lot of painful work that's still ongoing.

19:18 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's the difference. [SPEAKER_02]: This time I chose to stay and chose to face my issues and my problems and my struggles. [SPEAKER_02]: and to try to work to be a better person, first and foremost, and then a better watch. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been a long, difficult, challenging road, but I do feel the hope of the recovery.

19:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel a lot of the promises that we speak about in the recovery world really have already started to come true with for me. [SPEAKER_02]: and living a life of integrity and honesty and vulnerability at this point is I can't imagine living that past life again. [SPEAKER_02]: Really, since I have made this stuff in my life, there's not even temptation or desire.

20:05 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no positive light shed on that past life. [SPEAKER_02]: Like it is, [SPEAKER_02]: And a bismal thing to look back on and see just the devastation that I caused but also the depth of the low life that I was living. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I was really even though I felt like I was living my best life looking back and retrospect.

20:27 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a terrible life to be living and it was extremely destructive to myself and everyone around me. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so often, we focus on the betrayal of the relationship. [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, it's horrible, it's traumatic, it's devastating. [SPEAKER_03]: But what doesn't get talked about enough is what you were just talking about, which was the self-betrayal.

20:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And even for my husband to this day, I think that component still comes in right where it's like, well, you were just out there having a great time living it up, doing whatever you wanted. [SPEAKER_02]: And at times, I even struggled with that myself looking at back and saying, well, why wasn't I just in a pile on the floor, committing all of these atrocities?

21:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Why wasn't I more shameful, more guilty, you know, struggling more with it? [SPEAKER_02]: And it was really through I took the shame to connection course that helping couples heal offers through the community. [SPEAKER_02]: And I had to learn more about which shame is and how it presents differently in different situations for different people.

21:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was really eye-opening for me because I was feeling guilty about not feeling guilty. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a lot of that going on. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, why didn't I feel more shame about these things? [SPEAKER_02]: And I had to learn about myself that my shame presented in different ways that it presented in aggression towards my husband.

21:44 [SPEAKER_02]: I would pick fights with him and I'd be physically abusive towards him. [SPEAKER_02]: And emotionally, it just awful to say terrible, terrible things. [SPEAKER_02]: and learning that that is partly how my shame presented in my relationship with him. [SPEAKER_02]: I was pushing him away because of that shame that was coming up.

22:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't be in an intimate relationship with someone that I was hurting so badly, but I didn't see it as that at the time. [SPEAKER_02]: So I really had to learn more about how shame comes up for me. [SPEAKER_02]: It comes up in other ways, too, in people pleasing and overworking, so I get the validation from my work peers.

22:20 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it comes up in lots of different ways, but it was really helpful to learn more about that. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I also want to ask something patting. [SPEAKER_01]: So throughout your journey, when you were a teenager, you said, all this happened to you, did you know who you were as a woman?

22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know who you are now? [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm working on them. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, honestly, that's probably a life-long journey, but I do think I have a much better idea of who I am. [SPEAKER_02]: I heard other women use, I've heard other men use this to about the community in term.

22:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, I don't think I had much of a personal identity. [SPEAKER_02]: I was trying so hard to be accepted by other people, like just to find my tribe. [SPEAKER_02]: Like who do I fit in with? [SPEAKER_02]: Where do I fit in this world? [SPEAKER_02]: That I was willing to self-sacrifice. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would morph myself into whatever was going to get me accepted into that group and not very much presented itself in my [SPEAKER_02]: sex addiction.

23:16 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I, I was a different person to every different partner. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was very good at reading those people and figuring out what they were looking for. [SPEAKER_02]: And I would make myself whatever that was. [SPEAKER_03]: And I just want to interrupt right here and that with any betrayal no matter what gender the betrayer is and that right there's manipulation right there because you were not being authentic when you shut up into that relationship with the person who's on the other side of that thinks that that's who you are so they're choosing to be in a relationship with you and to engage with you based on who you are showing that moment right at that moment.

23:54 [SPEAKER_02]: 100% you know for my husband I mean that's I mean there's so many things that are you know very difficult betrayals but that's a huge one like for him and for most of my friends and my professional life I present myself as a very altruistic like I'm in health care I take care of people I do volunteer work like oh I'm this great person you know I just put myself up on this pedestal and [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, my husband says that all the time, like, he used to talk me up to everyone.

24:25 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he used to go to people and say, like, how great his wife was. [SPEAKER_02]: And she does all these wonderful things. [SPEAKER_02]: And she's such a great person. [SPEAKER_02]: And then he would take that on for himself to say, she's such a great person. [SPEAKER_02]: And she chose me, right?

24:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And so the painting of finding out that I'm not this great person, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And then that I dragged him into this because it's false, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Like he fell in love with and committed to a false representation of what I was. [SPEAKER_02]: and then finding out that part of it.

24:59 [SPEAKER_01]: The ultimate betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that in itself is the betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're not who you said you work. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, even just the nuts and bolts of it. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is one of the things that's maybe different on the male side of the betrayed partner.

25:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Just break it down to a financial contract. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I went into a contract of marriage under false pretenses. [SPEAKER_02]: Right? [SPEAKER_02]: I presented myself as this person. [SPEAKER_02]: who was trustworthy and loyal and a great person. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was not that.

25:28 [SPEAKER_02]: So from that standpoint, you know, that contractive marriage is null and boy. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I do want to say I want to go back for a second. [SPEAKER_03]: You have said several times you're not a great person and I really want to make this distinction between you did not do great things.

25:44 [SPEAKER_03]: You hurt people and you hurt yourself and those things weren't great but that does not mean that you are not a good person and that by the way is what shame does that's right. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the shame is not I did bad things the shame is I am bad. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because part of your identity it does and obviously that's a hard one to shake that's still kind of in my language.

26:04 [SPEAKER_02]: It's important for me. [SPEAKER_02]: I think in my recovery to recognize that I'm still the same person right I'm the person that I was when I was born and I'm still the same person. [SPEAKER_02]: I have evolved a lot and certainly I've changed probably the most in the last three years of growth and discovery.

26:22 [SPEAKER_02]: I know for my partner for my husband, he really has to look at it very concretely like the old patty is dead and buried and gone. [SPEAKER_02]: And the new patty is this person because when he looks at me if he sees [SPEAKER_02]: Any behaviors or anything that feels like old patty dots for the trouble starts.

26:44 [SPEAKER_02]: That's where he feels unsafe and we get into that dance. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so Thankfully, most of old patty really is dead and buried and gone. [SPEAKER_02]: She still pops up every once in a while, but I have to look at it a bit differently for myself. [SPEAKER_02]: I really adopt one of the things we say in the recovery spaces.

27:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll accept the past. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't wish to shut the door in the past, but I understand that that's part of who I am and how I've come to be this person today. [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want to just ignore that that's been part of my past because when I don't acknowledge it, I feel like I run the risk of [SPEAKER_02]: going down those same pathways.

27:20 [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to respect the fact that all of these things have led up to where I am today and acknowledge that I do have this problem and it's something that I need to always be conscious of and aware of and how I interact with my environments and everyone that I come across and meet in the world.

27:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to be very cognizant of this part of my life and it does impact everything. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's important to highlight something that you just said, which is it's complex. [SPEAKER_03]: There's more than one thing happening at once because yes, you were talking about, you're not going to disown the part of your life, your story where you did things that are outside of your values and where you hurt yourself and others, right?

28:01 [SPEAKER_03]: So you want to take accountability there. [SPEAKER_03]: You want to be accountable and those behaviors are not okay and in present time and in the future you will not engage with them. [SPEAKER_03]: But then it's also so important to hold that other truth of who were you and why were you doing those things and having the compassion for that patty That patty who grew up and you might not have had like you said the big tea trauma But yeah, well the tools and also you know you were someone who wanted attention you said you didn't feel like you were noticed or you were seen and [SPEAKER_03]: it felt good for you when you actually felt like you fit in.

28:34 [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel just so much compassion for that girl who was also being a chameleon and turning herself upside down to try to show up and be a certain way because you thought that's how that person would like you as opposed to you just feeling like I'm myself in all situations and I can be myself and I could be worthy of attention and love and all of those things.

28:56 [SPEAKER_03]: So I really do feel like it's important to recognize for anyone who has betrayed a partner. [SPEAKER_03]: You've got these two things. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, yeah, you have to take complete accountability for what you've done. [SPEAKER_03]: You are responsible for it. [SPEAKER_03]: You made those choices.

29:08 [SPEAKER_03]: And we have to manage the going into then that self-hatred and the self-loving. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then on broken and all of that stuff, because then we're ignoring this other part. [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, this is where I think it gets confusing [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's so important to really get to understand the wise because that's the only way that you can prevent those patterns.

29:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I just say I'm never going to do it again and just cross my fingers and light knuckle it. [SPEAKER_02]: That's not going to work, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And that didn't work before. [SPEAKER_03]: Right, you said that after your first marriage, that's what happened. [SPEAKER_03]: I want to pause for a second and ask Judith actually to jump in here and share, I'm curious what you have seen in your own practice with Patty's story, sort of what you're normally seeing.

29:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's very relatable. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Patty. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, everybody has a different story. [SPEAKER_01]: But the underneath layer is usually the same. [SPEAKER_01]: There's something that was missing. [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't seen. [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't acknowledged.

30:08 [SPEAKER_01]: There was some kind of form of neglect. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that was just emotional neglect at a young age. [SPEAKER_01]: You also said the secrets. [SPEAKER_01]: You created that pattern 16 and 17 so that became a pattern for you that became part of how you did life and didn't know it.

30:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So I noticed all these things with these women's where they don't understand where it happened and you nailed it. [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't understand the why you cannot correct it. [SPEAKER_01]: So the real work is understanding why. [SPEAKER_01]: What was I missing? [SPEAKER_01]: What was I not saying?

30:38 [SPEAKER_01]: What is it identified? [SPEAKER_01]: I was talking to Marty and before you jumped in, what I noticed is that women, all of us, were already painted by society that were supposed to fit a certain mold. [SPEAKER_01]: And you did the opposite, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, I'm not gonna fit in this mold and I don't care, but you didn't, and spied off, did care.

30:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you kind of went against it. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I asked you earlier, it's like, okay, throughout this process, did you know who you were? [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, no, in fact, I don't even know who I am just yet. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the other point to this aspect that we don't know who we are because first of all, we're born female.

31:13 [SPEAKER_01]: That's one X. I hate to say it, but it is because in our society, that's what it is. [SPEAKER_01]: We're expected to do certain things. [SPEAKER_01]: We're expected to just look good, but not say anything. [SPEAKER_01]: We're expected to be faithful regardless of what. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're giving all these check marks, right?

31:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm going to graduate and then I'm going to find the [SPEAKER_01]: So we're too busy following this checklist that we forget to discover who we are, what we want, and what our desires are. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's where it begins. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the biggest problem that we're not exposed to ourselves.

31:48 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, like you said, you self-sacrifice. [SPEAKER_01]: in order to fit in. [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that creates even more trauma, creates even more problems. [SPEAKER_01]: And you dig yourself into this whole lot more deeper. [SPEAKER_01]: So I like to work with women as, let's find out who you are.

32:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a million dollar question, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's trying to figure it out. [SPEAKER_01]: But I think I kind of nailed it. [SPEAKER_01]: I think I figured it out. [SPEAKER_01]: No one knows the answer to this, but you. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that we get to create that in the moment.

32:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want, I can say, I am joyful. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm happy. [SPEAKER_01]: And I am centered. [SPEAKER_01]: if I say that I'm that that I am those things. [SPEAKER_01]: So I get to say who I am in the moment and I think a lot of women are not they don't understand that just yet right so healing is part of understanding who you are understanding the why so that it doesn't happen again.

32:36 [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing that I do see with my women is when they are discovered, there's even more self-sacrifice happening and they get further away from knowing themselves because now they've been caught. [SPEAKER_01]: Now they want to make it better. [SPEAKER_01]: Now they want to work on the things and then they end up fitting another mold.

32:55 [SPEAKER_01]: This is what I have to do. [SPEAKER_01]: This is what it looks like. [SPEAKER_01]: I have to do this. [SPEAKER_01]: I have to do that. [SPEAKER_01]: Regardless of how they feel. [SPEAKER_01]: And some of the abuse that the women I've been working with verbal abuse and even in sexual abuse in some ways, because they did what they did, now they're in the state where, yeah, I deserve this.

33:12 [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to clarify that you're saying that the women that you're working with who identifies the betrayers are getting verbally abused by the betrayed male partner. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for what they did, which is understandable, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's the pain coming through. [SPEAKER_01]: It's the anger and the male does not know in this case how to soften the trigger or how to stabilize it, how to regulate and what's happening is then more damage is happening.

33:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And the woman, again, loses herself because now I'm trying to fit into this role of what he wants me to be so that I can make this marriage survive. [SPEAKER_02]: We definitely experienced that dynamic for I would say the first maybe year and a half or so after discovery because I exactly what you're saying like I just felt like.

33:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I just need to sit back and take whatever he's stitching out. [SPEAKER_02]: It makes sense that he's very hurt and he's lashing out. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I did, you know, I was being coached to have boundaries and to have respectful this and not and like it just couldn't happen. [SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't land.

34:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I know that's what's happening in my practice. [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it was a very tough road to walk for me in early recovery because my personal recovery was [SPEAKER_02]: The established boundaries keep your personal self safe and like you know really trying to establish that work for my own individual recovery.

34:31 [SPEAKER_02]: But trying to rehabilitate a marriage at the same time. [SPEAKER_02]: I really didn't feel like I had any rights to say. [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't want to do that. [SPEAKER_02]: And it was a very tricky road for a long time. [SPEAKER_02]: And thankfully, we're not in that space anymore.

34:46 [SPEAKER_02]: We've come through that. [SPEAKER_01]: But what did you do to interrupt it? [SPEAKER_02]: What happened? [SPEAKER_02]: What switched? [SPEAKER_02]: I think a couple of things. [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that was recommended for me and my personal recovery that translated to us was we did an abstinence period.

35:00 [SPEAKER_02]: So we did a 90 day abstinence period. [SPEAKER_02]: We failed the first. [SPEAKER_02]: But that was an important kind of reset, I think, for both of us because immediately after discovery, there was like a desperation, I think, on both sides where my husband was going through a lot of needing to, you know, for lack of a better word, like reclaim territory, you know, it was a bit of that kind of caveman, like this is my mind, you know, woman, and I'm going to take her block, right?

35:33 [SPEAKER_02]: So there was a lot of that happening. [SPEAKER_02]: And I at the time really didn't feel like I had a voice to say, I'm not comfortable with it. [SPEAKER_02]: But then the other thing that was happening for me internally was a lot of just personal shame and disgust around sex. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, sex is what got me into this mess.

35:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to be seen as a sexual being right now. [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to just crawl under a rock and hide somewhere until things were magically better. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was just disgusted with myself and then I was also picturing my husband looking at me with disgust, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was like, how do I navigate this space where I'm trying to, you know, rehabilitate this marriage, but also keep myself safe and keep my own personal recovery on track and make sure that we come out of this [SPEAKER_02]: with a healthy relationship and not something that's been further traumatized by those interactions.

36:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the opposite in this period was good for both of us because we had to learn other ways to express intimacy with each other and support each other and affection and other forms of intimacy that aren't just sexual interaction. [SPEAKER_02]: And I do think that was kind of the starting point of that was for us just to take a break from sexual intimacy and not to say that that's the answer for everyone.

36:59 [SPEAKER_02]: But we were so caught up in this just like physical battle that I think taking a break from that was really important. [SPEAKER_02]: And then honestly, I was a lot of just my personal work to and kind of reframing and letting go of a lot of my own shame around those behaviors. [SPEAKER_02]: As I understood more about where and how and why those things developed in me, I was able to let go of a lot of the shame that I carried around that.

37:25 [SPEAKER_02]: one of the things that it's been interesting and being in both couples recovery and individual recovery is that there are even women in my sex addict group who are between partners and they will actually say I'm so glad you're here and thank you for the things that you're saying because they feel like their husbands probably feel similar things but they're just not able [SPEAKER_03]: they certainly learn how to when they get into this process, right?

38:00 [SPEAKER_03]: It's inevitable. [SPEAKER_03]: No matter which side you're on, if you're the betrayer or if you're the betrayed partner as a man, you're going to learn to talk, you're going to learn to express yourself, and you're going to learn how to be intimate in ways other than sex. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

38:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, Marty, I think that's another point that's very important communication. [SPEAKER_01]: We're not born with it. [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_01]: I bet Patty did not know how to say anything she wanted to say when she was a teenager. [SPEAKER_01]: She probably didn't have the experience to express her emotions.

38:26 [SPEAKER_01]: None of us did until we practice it. [SPEAKER_01]: We have to learn it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's cultivated. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that it's important for people to understand just basic communication. [SPEAKER_01]: When am I being passive? [SPEAKER_01]: When am I being aggressive? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that doesn't work.

38:38 [SPEAKER_03]: I work with a lot of couples in my therapy practice and I will often at the end of a really powerful session where there's been a lot of communication and it's you know really beautiful and profound and I'll say okay guys. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to ask that you do not have conversations like this outside of therapy right now.

38:54 [SPEAKER_03]: The goal is to be able to get you to the place where you can do that, but because most people like you said didn't learn how to have those conversations and when you're not in a contained. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you've got two dysregulated systems trying to have a relationship and it doesn't usually go well.

39:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So again, I'm not trying to say that every conversation that a couple has should happen in the context of the therapy session, but I do want to explain how it's important to learn these relational skills and a big one is communication. [UNKNOWN]: Yep. [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny. [SPEAKER_02]: So we do our fanos check ins on a fairly regular basis.

39:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's the structure for the check ins that we use in the end is for needs right and nearly every single time we both just say open communication like keep communicating with me because. [SPEAKER_02]: It's something neither of us did at all before you know my husband will say that his answer to everything since his early childhood was it's fine I'm fine everything's fine put up a wall I'll take care of it myself everything's fine and my approach was just silence.

40:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Just shut down, walled off. [SPEAKER_02]: And that was what I was taught as a child. [SPEAKER_02]: I was told not to speak. [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't asked to speak that my voice was not valued at all. [SPEAKER_02]: And so from what I saw from an emotional spectrum, it was the same like make a nice pretty picture that he presented to the world and anything that's dirty and unpleasant.

40:21 [SPEAKER_02]: we just don't talk about that. [SPEAKER_02]: That's just behind the door under the rug. [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody even knows that that's there, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And that was very much how I built my world. [SPEAKER_02]: And like here's the pretty face and the facade and all the things and everything else that's dirty and unpleasant happens in the basement that nobody knows about.

40:40 [SPEAKER_02]: We're no one gets to see it, but you, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Judith, I wanted to ask you, what do you see as the greatest challenge that is experienced in recovery by female betrayers? [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe something that might be different for the challenges that men experience. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I know like what we were talking about earlier, the self-sacrifice that even happens while they're gruebulitating.

41:05 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't see that they are self-sacrificing. [SPEAKER_01]: They're becoming someone, they think their husbands want them to be at the cost of their authenticity and that in the long-run doesn't work. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things I noticed a lot that's a big barrier and then we'll go over through the okay take me through it what happened he said this I said that then this happened okay and why didn't you stop and right there and keep yourself say oh well he's not I deserve this so it's a lot of the self loading I deserve this and I think.

41:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It's important for them to realize that no, you're worthy. [SPEAKER_01]: So I constantly tell them, no, you're here. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not broken. [SPEAKER_01]: You're good. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not the first. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not the last. [SPEAKER_01]: We're human. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to normalize that this is not one thing that has to define you for the rest of your life.

41:53 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one part of many other beautiful things about you. [SPEAKER_03]: Can you take that in, Patty? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I wonder what you're thinking as you're hearing, Judith, say that. [SPEAKER_03]: You're worthy. [SPEAKER_03]: This is one part of you. [SPEAKER_02]: I love that that's the message, it is so hard to take in on this side, especially in the beginning.

42:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I think I have much more of an open mind for that now after the work that I've been able to do, but that is a really tough message to them, but all the more important that it's repeated over and over and over, because I don't believe me. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I know they won't believe me the first time the second time the third time, but I'm hoping by the hundredth that they start to believe it and they start to believe in themselves.

42:28 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, also, the thing is, and this is, again, not just for male-be-trade partners, for any betrayed partner, but, in times they are saying to the betrayer, you are awful. [SPEAKER_03]: You are evil. [SPEAKER_03]: You are a master, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, as the betrayer that you did do these things, and you did cause so much pain and harm to the person.

42:46 [SPEAKER_03]: So when they're saying, you are awful, you're horrible, you're a master, you're evil. [SPEAKER_03]: I think you're a sociopath. [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're someone who comes from background where you're also don't feel that great bag or self, which is hence why you were not being authentic in your relationships and you're showing up trying to be who other people want you to be, then you're going to likely take on that role.

43:08 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I am a monster. [SPEAKER_03]: I am evil, right? [SPEAKER_02]: You need to accept those terms. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: But that doesn't help the relationship, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Because then it keeps you stuck. [SPEAKER_03]: It keeps you stuck and it keeps you focused on yourself.

43:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Now you're focused on how awful you are. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, your partner actually doesn't want you to stay stuck in that place because then you're not able to show up for them and their pain. [SPEAKER_03]: when anyone, when any betrayer, again, regardless of gender, says, I'm not that person anymore.

43:35 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not doing that anymore. [SPEAKER_03]: And so let's move on or any sort of iteration of that, that's not okay either because they're denying it's two different places that we get to stand in at the same time. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm choosing to stand here powerfully and still will get what she did and still take responsibility.

43:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not going to step out of here [SPEAKER_01]: I deserve it. [SPEAKER_01]: I deserve to be treated with love and respect as well. [SPEAKER_01]: Regardless of what I did, I'm not making it right. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not justifying it, but if we're going to heal, yes, I'm going to take responsibility and this is what it looks like.

44:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm literally standing in this place and taking responsibility and being myself on don't [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that was really helpful for me to learn about was the idea of internal and external filters. [SPEAKER_02]: To be able to set a boundary where I can hear those things coming at me, but I had to get to a place where I was strong enough in my belief in myself to say, I hear what's coming at me.

44:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I know which components of that are true and not true for myself now today. [SPEAKER_02]: And I can let the things that are not true just sort of slide off of me and take the things that are true and acknowledge that but that doesn't happen right away. [SPEAKER_02]: I needed to get to a place where I did believe in myself that I can be this better version of myself and so I could stand in that place and take that right initially.

44:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I would take all of that on and. [SPEAKER_02]: We could do a probably a whole other session on just the fact that there's all the words that we have for women who do this. [SPEAKER_02]: There's like a whole vocabulary of slurs we can throw at women who are in this world, you know, where we don't have that kind of language for men who are betrayers.

45:16 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's an interesting kind of, you know, that's one of those social things where there's all sorts of descriptive lovely terms that can get rolled at us for being female betrayers. [SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: to be able to kind of take that and know what's true and not true, but that took a while to get to that point.

45:33 [SPEAKER_03]: I was just reminded, I was telling Judith before you got on the call, Patty, that I read today in the New York Times, that the woman who was part of the Cold Play scandal, remember back in the summer, finally shared her story, and I read it, and the amount of words that she was called, like you just said, I mean, she received, she said 50 to 60 death threats.

45:56 [SPEAKER_03]: And by the way, I'm no way excusing what she did, but I do think it's really important to recognize that in society, I think this is one of the very big differences. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not okay. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's not okay for anyone to cheat. [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_03]: Men get some kind of a hall pass to it.

46:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And the consequences are generally very different. [SPEAKER_03]: And that reminds me of the, you know, I imagine we all remember the Scarlet Letter, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And we had to read it in school. [SPEAKER_03]: Like I remember reading that when I was in like junior high school.

46:25 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, that's about a woman who her husband was away and she got pregnant and never shared who this partner was or the father of the baby. [SPEAKER_03]: And she was completely outcast. [SPEAKER_03]: She had to stand, you know, on a scaffold for public humiliation. [SPEAKER_03]: She had to wear a scarlet aid.

46:43 [SPEAKER_03]: clothing for times. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: And the punishment was meant to shame her to make her feel broken and wrong and worthless and to deter others from committing the same, you know, let's say crime or sin. [SPEAKER_03]: But do you guys remember what the consequences were for the man who she had the affair with?

47:03 [SPEAKER_03]: Who was he? [SPEAKER_03]: Arthur Dinsdale, right? [SPEAKER_03]: He had no public punishment. [SPEAKER_03]: He was never publicly exposed in any way for what he did. [SPEAKER_03]: And because he is a male and he's a respected minister, right? [SPEAKER_03]: He was a respected minister. [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think the author was intentionally trying to show how society punishes women openly and allows [SPEAKER_03]: powerful men or men to hide.

47:30 [SPEAKER_03]: And listen, it's not okay for anyone to betray. [SPEAKER_03]: There are consequences and should be consequences. [SPEAKER_03]: But I do want to shine the light here on the fact that men and women are treated differently and they're treated differently because of the socialization that each experience.

47:49 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think that that's really important. [SPEAKER_03]: We need to bring a lot [SPEAKER_03]: and there's one other thing I wanted to say that it's important. [SPEAKER_03]: At some point, one or both of you mentioned the word abuse. [SPEAKER_03]: Was it you, Judith? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I see it a lot.

48:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's a lot of abuse. [SPEAKER_03]: And so this is an important point I want to make too. [SPEAKER_03]: Every single betrayer regardless of gender, [SPEAKER_03]: engages in abusive behavior towards the betrayed partner because in order to have a secret sexual basement, there is implicitly abuse.

48:17 [SPEAKER_03]: There's deceit. [SPEAKER_03]: There's gaslighting emotional manipulation, reality manipulation. [SPEAKER_03]: We can go on and on, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Definitely. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And we also see abuse that happens on the other side with the betrayed partner, again, regardless of gender.

48:33 [SPEAKER_03]: So the betrayed [SPEAKER_03]: furious. [SPEAKER_03]: However, that doesn't make it okay to be abusive. [SPEAKER_03]: And we see that happen. [SPEAKER_03]: So I want to say and call out abuse, no matter which side of the equation you're on, whether you were the betrayer, whether you're the betrayed, abuse is not acceptable or tolerable.

48:56 [SPEAKER_03]: And as a therapist, I will call that out. [SPEAKER_03]: But what's then important? [SPEAKER_03]: is to give tools to the betrayed partner to be able to express what is going on for them in a healthier way or in a communication communication and teaching the betrayer again whether male or female how to stand in their truth as we've been talking about in this conversation but to also give space to listen to and hear the experience of the betrayed partner.

49:23 [SPEAKER_03]: but both have to work on the healthy communication, showing up, regulated in their grown adult self and be able to come together to talk about what is a profound trauma because there is nothing more painful in a relationship for there to be this sort of the loss of the person that was dependent on for safety.

49:45 [SPEAKER_03]: Attachment trauma, betrayal trauma is profoundly painful. [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the things that brings up for me, and in the beginning early stages of our recovery, so much of the difficult behaviors that we were expressing towards each other after we were able to kind of dig into a little bit more, it was all coming from fear on both parts.

50:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, there's lots of emotions in there, but fear was so prevalent for both of us in the beginning. [SPEAKER_02]: Fear that this would be the last straw he's definitely going to leave, you know, that was my fear. [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be the thing that's too much. [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be the thing that makes him leave.

50:23 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be alone in my life. [SPEAKER_02]: Everything's over, you know, and his fear was she's not going to be able to stop. [SPEAKER_02]: This is going to happen again. [SPEAKER_02]: Why am I putting myself in this position to be hurt this way again? [SPEAKER_02]: You know, all those things.

50:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And then also, [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to be enough. [SPEAKER_02]: She's going to choose to leave. [SPEAKER_02]: So there was so much fear, big den that triggered all of these just really unhealthy responses to behaviors. [SPEAKER_02]: But like when we were able to break it down further down in our recovery path, that's really what it was.

50:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And even today, I think when we get dysregulated or things come up that are more challenging like that, [SPEAKER_02]: tends to be what's at the root of it is that fear component and I think now that we're three years post discovery and we've gone through a lot of these big roller coaster ups and downs and Explosions and little explosions and big explosions and many able to kind of regroup from those the more we've gone through those the more confidence and security we have in [SPEAKER_02]: Our relationship together that we can go through those things and come out on the other side and still be together as a couple and still be loving towards each other.

51:34 [SPEAKER_02]: But in the beginning, there's no confidence in now. [SPEAKER_02]: There's no confidence that this person's going to still be here tomorrow. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very unsettling place to be in the beginning. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and when we act out of fear, it's not genuine because we're just acting out of fear trying to survive versus thriving.

51:54 [SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask each of you to share what are you both suggest from women who are listening who have betrayed and do not know where to go or what to do. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I can jump in first. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I did go ahead because I did want to also mention this part too earlier. [SPEAKER_02]: I know not everybody that's listening will identify as an addict, right?

52:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I've identified myself as a sex addict, as a sex and love addict. [SPEAKER_02]: But I would say that those recovery resources that are available in that world have been extremely helpful to me. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think just the term sex addict tends to push people away. [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's misconception and there's a version to that term or that title or the expectation that you're going to call yourself not.

52:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's important for me to put people at ease with that. [SPEAKER_02]: virtually phone meetings in person meetings for both sex addiction, sex and love addiction, and as a sex of hoax and on a miss as well as another group. [SPEAKER_02]: And they are all 12 step programs. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of misconceptions around 12 step, right, that it has to be religious based and you have to, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: all of that stuff is not really true.

53:09 [SPEAKER_02]: It's open to everyone of all genders, all gender preferences, all things. [SPEAKER_02]: We take all comeers and I think just being able to sit like just try to join a meeting. [SPEAKER_02]: You don't even have to turn your camera on. [SPEAKER_02]: Just join a meeting and listen to what's being talked about because I think while a lot of the women in our group [SPEAKER_02]: Even women in some of my other programs, I'll say that I go to an essay, a group of sex addicts and anonymous group, and then kind of like push back like, oh, like, I'm not a sex addict, right?

53:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm not that. [SPEAKER_02]: But when you really start to hear the women share in this group, for most of us, it's not the sex. [SPEAKER_02]: The sex was a tool that we used to get what we really were seeking, which is for a lot of us, the validation. [SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: The attention and the praise and just somebody being interested in you and pursuing you and those components right and so I think there's just socially kind of a misconception about what this world is and I think there's a tremendous like I have found so many resources and also just community right yeah being in a room.

54:16 [SPEAKER_02]: a virtual room of 40 other women who come from all walks of life, races, creating its colors, gender, sexual preferences, sexual identities, all the things, and realizing that there's a lot of commonality to our story. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, everybody's story is unique and different, but we all can share in some of the components that do bring us together and for a lot of us, it's that it's that we were using for [SPEAKER_02]: To get what I thought I needed, which was external validation and pay is to say, I'm worthy.

54:52 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm worth something because [SPEAKER_02]: these people are interested in me and see my value heal. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm super grateful for my personal recovery. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm almost 19 months sober in my individual program. [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason that that's not three years is because I continued lying for a substantial part of our initial recovery.

55:14 [SPEAKER_02]: So June 5th of 2024 is my [SPEAKER_02]: the behavior that I really had to stop. [SPEAKER_03]: It's part of the abuse that I was talking about a little while ago. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think for me, just a willingness to put aside labels and stereotypes and preconceived ideas about what addiction is, what recovery looks like, what 12 step recovery looks like, because there are resources out there, but there's sometimes in these places where I think women [SPEAKER_02]: because if you walk into an essay in person meeting, it's going to be mostly known.

55:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I have a follow-up question and then I want to hear from you, Judith, about what you would tell women out there where they can go for help. [SPEAKER_03]: The patty, I know that you also were in a women's coaching group. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm curious for you, what did you get from that?

56:11 [SPEAKER_03]: Or what would be the benefit of joining that kind of a group that you couldn't get in your 12 step program? [SPEAKER_02]: That's an excellent thing to bring up to Bernie. [SPEAKER_02]: So I was in a specific coaching group for women betrayers offered through the helping couples heel community.

56:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And they each, we're old, provided the missing piece for me. [SPEAKER_02]: So my own personal recovery with addiction was and is still very important. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's important in my own life, but also in my coupleship with my husband and a relational recovery. [SPEAKER_02]: But there was always an element that was missing.

56:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't sit and either could my husband sit with this concept of will be addiction made you do. [SPEAKER_02]: You were an addict. [SPEAKER_02]: You had a disease. [SPEAKER_02]: You had this problem. [SPEAKER_02]: You had no control over it. [SPEAKER_02]: You couldn't have made a different choice.

56:57 [SPEAKER_02]: That's never really landed fully with me. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that there are certainly components of that. [SPEAKER_02]: And I do have compulsion and addiction components, but at the end of the day, [SPEAKER_02]: I made choices, I made choices to lie and to manipulate and gas light and do all of those integrity abuse behaviors in order to keep that addiction going and so the helping couples heel community really brought that piece into the forefront where it says here's the piece that's been missing.

57:27 [SPEAKER_02]: the integrity abuse component and understanding how that was impacting my husband. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, honestly, the day that I came fully clean to my husband was the first meeting that we attended for the community. [SPEAKER_02]: It was literally a Wednesday that we had a community call with the helping couple's heel community and it was about integrity and about lying and about a polygraph.

57:52 [SPEAKER_02]: And I literally went home that afternoon and that was when I came fully clean with my husband with the last couple lies that I've been holding. [SPEAKER_03]: Wow. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think the partner of Bichray won't model that's presented in helping couples heal and the integrity of use component because I was still doing that.

58:09 [SPEAKER_02]: I was still. [SPEAKER_02]: committing these lies in this manipulation and gaslighting behaviors we're still going on. [SPEAKER_02]: And understanding how that fit into my own recovery, but also our couple ship recovery was crucial. [SPEAKER_02]: And so being in a group of very small group of women who really like we really [SPEAKER_02]: partner vitriol model.

58:31 [SPEAKER_02]: So we walked through, you know, Minwall is 22 rooms and really understood the impact of what we have done on our partners. [SPEAKER_02]: That also helped us really dig into some of the wise of our own behavior. [SPEAKER_02]: Some of those things when we first went to the workshop, Marnie that you guys hosted, my husband and I both attended and I remember you guys being there.

58:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it was interesting to be there, I mean, I learned so much for it was very eye opening just the whole workshop in general, but I remember in some of the moments in there very much feeling like I was in this workshop on both sides. [SPEAKER_02]: Because of my sexual trauma in the past and because I had been at the trade partner in the past and then here I am as the betrayer and so there were so many things that were very revealing on both sides.

59:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I could really identify with both sides of the story. [SPEAKER_02]: And so walking through and detail, what a betrayed partner goes through, and how that shapes your worldview and all of the things in your life that was really, I think, very important. [SPEAKER_02]: And being able to have a small group of women, [SPEAKER_02]: where we could really vary openly and with the great deal of vulnerability and compassion and understanding being able to walk through those things and talk through those things with each other was incredibly valuable.

59:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for explaining that I think that's important because I think sometimes people have no idea where to go. [SPEAKER_03]: They're like, okay, I'm told to go to this meeting and then maybe I'm told to that and then maybe I should join this group. [SPEAKER_03]: And what do I do? [SPEAKER_03]: And what's the difference.

1:00:10 [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for sharing your experience with that well, and I will say that we really took a throw everything at the wall and see what sticks because, you know, there's so much desperation in the beginning or just like I I'll just take anything I'll take anything that's out there. [SPEAKER_02]: And we didn't do that in, you know, what works and what doesn't work.

1:00:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, honestly, like who knows, like we did so many different things. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to say this worked better than that or whatever, but however that's happened over the last three years. [SPEAKER_02]: We are in a much better place and I am in a much better place individually.

1:00:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And so we're so grateful for all of those things, but it wasn't the easiest thing to find, right? [SPEAKER_02]: We had to really dig and find these little morsels and it would be, he talked to this person and they're like, Oh, have you read this book or listen to this podcast? [SPEAKER_02]: And that's how you found things, right?

1:00:58 [SPEAKER_02]: It was just kind of this. [SPEAKER_02]: discovery, navigation, like your explorers out in the insured waters, you know. [SPEAKER_03]: I just need to say real quick, interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: You've mentioned being a part of the online couples community several times throughout this conversation, Patty, and I happen to know because that community is through helping couples heal, and I'm a part of it, that in a community of about 25 couples, you guys are the only couple that identifies as a female betrayer and a male betrayed partner.

1:01:26 [SPEAKER_03]: And I am curious about that. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that definitely says something, guys. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm curious on both of you. [SPEAKER_03]: What is the message that that sends? [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting for sure. [SPEAKER_02]: I will say that by the time we join the community, we had already been experiencing that dynamic in every school group that we go to.

1:01:44 [SPEAKER_02]: We do attend some other couples recovery programs as well. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's usually the same thing. [SPEAKER_02]: We're very commonly the only one in this dynamic. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to speak too much for my husband, but it's interesting because there's a lot of similarities.

1:01:56 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the male betrayers in the group that were in, we share a lot in common. [SPEAKER_02]: We share a lot of the same entitlement issues. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm working super hard. [SPEAKER_02]: I deserve this and that. [SPEAKER_02]: And I personally put myself in an environment where I was always around a lot of men.

1:02:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I kind of adopted this sort of male view of myself in the world. [SPEAKER_02]: So I share a lot in common with the male betrayers in the group. [SPEAKER_02]: But there's differences that are important to recognize and I think especially for my husband as a betrayed male partner who's chosen to stay that puts them in a very small percentage out there, you know, we don't have children so it's just the two of us he doesn't have any obligation to stay with me outside of if he took a vow of marriage and.

1:02:43 [SPEAKER_02]: He takes that very seriously. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I feel incredibly lucky every single day that he's here and has chosen to take this journey with me and is very committed to our recovery, but it's not easy for him. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, joining these kinds of groups where he's automatically kind of lumped in with this group of women, you know, betrayed partners.

1:03:02 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, there's already heaps of shame that come with having a wife who's done the things that I've done. [SPEAKER_02]: And when we talk about societal roles for men and women and expectations, there's a lot that goes into that. [SPEAKER_02]: What's wrong with you as a man if your wife was doing [SPEAKER_02]: And he carries all of that and that's a tremendous amount of shame for him to take on and the fact that he's chosen to stay, you know, he's lost friendships over that very close friends that he's cut out of his life because they don't agree with his choice to stay and that's difficult and it's very isolating.

1:03:50 [SPEAKER_03]: And I want to say, I'm hoping that people that hear this podcast will hear your story and please consider joining this community because this community was not created for male betrayers and female betrayed partners. [SPEAKER_03]: It's created for people that are dealing with betrayal, trauma, and want to heal their relationship.

1:04:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And I will also say for the male betrayed partners who might be listening, there are resources for you guys too. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Judith has been, and my husband also found a lot of support in an infidelity survivors group. [SPEAKER_02]: So there was a ball of staff related adjacent ISA, ISA, infidelity survivors and anonymous, and there are, there's not many, but there's male specific groups in there, and that was really a lifeline for him in the beginning because it is such an isolating thing to feel like, [SPEAKER_02]: you have to be the only person that this has happened to.

1:04:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And to know that you can come to a place where that is not the case, right? [SPEAKER_02]: That you are not alone. [SPEAKER_02]: There are other people who have walked through this. [SPEAKER_02]: That was a very important life lying for him in the beginning. [SPEAKER_02]: because there were dark days for a very long time and there still are.

1:05:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we're three years out. [SPEAKER_02]: We're nowhere near resolution of these things, but there is hope, there is support. [SPEAKER_02]: There are resources. [SPEAKER_02]: There are a little bit harder to find on this side of the street, but they're out there for sure. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and to piggyback on that, everything you said absolutely and the one thing that I do notice that does help is when we keep it, I know that Marnie, you're saying couples, that's great because you had both male and female, but when we have just a women's group or a men's group, where it's just women betrayers.

1:05:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really really powerful. [SPEAKER_01]: I think if you can find a group of just women or betrayers or if you're male and betray, find a group of just men who have been betrayed, you'll find that support is better. [SPEAKER_01]: And due to do have some of those groups and if you do, are they yes, I do and they're online they're online they're on my website women's work dot com under groups so that's my only two cents on that one everything patty said plus sex gender specific groups.

1:06:07 [SPEAKER_03]: yeah and helping couples heal we have one group for female betrayers and it's different from yours due to if i think that what you offer is really amazing and probably would be an amazing jumping off point because it's an eight week group with a curriculum and our group there's no curriculum it's an ongoing group patty how long were you in that group [SPEAKER_02]: a long time.

1:06:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, every year, it was over a year. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was maybe like 15 months or 16 months or something like that. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So it would be sort of like taking all of the things for instance, Judith, that a person would get from your program and then being able to integrate it into life and talk to other women about challenges and how are you doing this?

1:06:43 [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, so there's no end date on our groups. [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that those are amazing resources, all of them. [SPEAKER_03]: We'll put everything that we've talked about in the show notes and [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, of course. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, tell us real quick about your podcast.

1:06:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's called Women Cheat 2 and they're very, very short because I know where moms, where workers, we're doing all these things and we're still trying to discover who we are. [SPEAKER_01]: So they're anywhere from 9 to 13 minutes. [SPEAKER_01]: Everything is very specific to a certain topic and they're out every week.

1:07:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Women Cheat 2, anywhere you can listen to your podcasts. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thanks. [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_03]: Well Judith, I'm really grateful that you came and I appreciate your time and patty. [SPEAKER_03]: I want to give you a little warning that you might have.

1:07:27 [SPEAKER_03]: what some people call a vulnerability hangover, right? [SPEAKER_03]: You might think exhausted after this experience. [SPEAKER_03]: I really do recognize just the courage that it took for you to be here today and to share so openly and [SPEAKER_03]: you are a beautiful story of transforming and recovery and you are a beautiful recovering woman and I'm so grateful that you shared your story with us and that you've trusted me in helping couples heal to walk beside you in this journey.

1:07:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you guys have been a big part of our story, and we're really grateful that we found the podcast first, helping couple seal podcasts, because that really was an eye-opener. [SPEAKER_02]: And then if that just led us into more work with you guys in the community and it's been a big, I don't think we would be where we are.

1:08:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, if we hadn't found that piece, that was definitely a missing piece for us. [SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm very grateful. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: Alright, well thank you again both of you and thanks to all of our listeners thanks for being here be gentle with yourselves and we will see you again soon.

1:08:30 [SPEAKER_03]: Take care. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

1:08:56 [SPEAKER_00]: are help as available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

1:09:15 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.