103. Consequences with Ned Fulmer

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcast was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Huel, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Huel. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: Hello everyone welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: This is Marty and today I have a guest with me who I feel has a very important and unique story to share with us some of you might recognize my guest today.

1:39 [SPEAKER_02]: His name is Ned Fomer and I'm going to actually allow Ned to go ahead and share a little bit about his story to provide some context. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a few things I want to say about Ned and why we decided to do [SPEAKER_02]: So Ned's discovery or the discovery that his wife had was very public, any discovery is devastating shattering, just traumatizing.

2:03 [SPEAKER_02]: And when you add a public discovery on top of that, it comes with a whole lot of complexity that I don't think is talked about very much. [SPEAKER_02]: So I felt like it would be an important thing to come on and share that. [SPEAKER_02]: And also, I don't know that I've had a lot of men come on, [SPEAKER_02]: who share their story of healing.

2:21 [SPEAKER_02]: I know I've had couples on before and I know that's very, very helpful. [SPEAKER_02]: But being able to have a man come on and share his journey through discovery, addiction, healing, all of that would be super helpful to others. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, Ned, I'm so glad you're here. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here.

2:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Marny. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So why don't we talk about why would people know you? [SPEAKER_02]: Where would people know you from? [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I'm honored to be here. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little strange because I both have listened to so many of your podcasts as well as you are our couples therapists.

2:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a bunch of contexts colliding here. [SPEAKER_01]: And I imagine that some of your audience may not have any idea who I am. [SPEAKER_01]: But a little background on the, I'm a YouTuber and a producer for the last decade, I've made comedy videos for the internet, started at a company called BuzzFeed, and created a show called The Try Guys.

3:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I've done a bunch of different stuff, but one of the things that I sort of became known for was actually my relationship and family. [SPEAKER_01]: and talked about that journey of being a young couple and starting to have children. [SPEAKER_01]: My ex-wife Ariel became a character in a way in our show.

3:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was known as a public figure. [SPEAKER_01]: She was known as a public figure. [SPEAKER_01]: And in 2022, I had an affair with an employee of my production company, our producer actually, and all of this became a very public scandal which had immense consequences in all of our lives.

3:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for being willing to share this because I imagine acknowledging the affair, who the affair was with, how an impacted aerial, how an impacted your career, all of that can't be easy to talk about, and so I know that I was really clear with you. [SPEAKER_02]: We started talking about [SPEAKER_02]: the possibility of you being a guest on this podcast that the most important thing is that this is helpful to our audience.

4:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Our audience is made up of people who are desperately wanting to heal and wanting to believe that healing is possible. [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever that looks like and it looks so different for so many people and you have as I said earlier like a unique experience and your story is deeply personal.

4:41 [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: I just know it can't be easy. [SPEAKER_02]: am I right with that or if I'm not right and this is super easy for you because you're someone who's used to being public and sharing publicly then that's great but I imagine it might be a little bit more vulnerable for you to share in this way.

4:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely I've been on podcast before of course but it's a deeply personal and painful time in my life and the fact that it's a very public thing that a lot of people walk up to me on the street and we'll know about certainly [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd like to say if anybody does know who you are who's listening and has opinions or judgments, which is really normal in the world that we live in.

5:24 [SPEAKER_02]: We hear stories and we have feelings about that. [SPEAKER_02]: And I know a lot of people had a lot of feelings about your story and the impact had had an aerial that I'd like to ask people to really listen with an open mind and to hear you as a man who has [SPEAKER_02]: been on this journey to come home to himself and to be someone who lives with integrity and just to be open to the possibility of changing and transformation.

5:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why we're here today to talk about what that journey looked like for you. [SPEAKER_02]: So why don't we start with what your life was like maybe right before the discovery and then how was the discovery made? [SPEAKER_02]: What actually happened? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, keeping a secret sexual basement or leading a double life is really not that dissimilar to being a performer on YouTube, when you're performing on YouTube, you're performing a version of yourself.

6:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm on camera as the character of Ned, like choosing what to say to try to make things funny or to try to highlight certain parts of myself that I think will get a good reaction. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's this mask that I think I carried in so many aspects of my life. [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly, carrying on a secret affair is like the ultimate having one mask to the world and one secret that is slowly Eating you away inside and destroying the foundations of your relationship without even knowing it.

6:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was fully You know had this Delusions and rationalizations that oh if nobody knows what's happening then it's not gonna hurt them or [SPEAKER_01]: This is okay because of XYZ, you know, the first step in kind of healing was to start addressing that. [SPEAKER_01]: And the immense consequences that I faced, you know, in a way, I'm grateful because there wasn't the ability to run away from anything.

7:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't, yes, my marriage is on the rocks, but I still have this great job or oh, well, I got fired from my job, but my wife doesn't know about it, you know. [SPEAKER_01]: I guess what I'm trying to say is the consequences for me were personal, professional, even my very sense of identity was shattered and those consequences were things that I was able to grab onto as a catalyst for change because there was really no other option.

7:43 [SPEAKER_02]: So did you want to get caught, Ned? [SPEAKER_02]: I know that's probably a question that's coming out of the blue, and I wasn't planning on asking it. [SPEAKER_02]: But the reason I'm asking is that you were just acknowledging that, well, I mean, let's be honest, thank God this happened because as awful as it's been, you are now living a very different way, right?

8:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that might never have happened. [SPEAKER_02]: But the reason I'm asking about if you wanted to get caught is because the way that it happened, [SPEAKER_02]: It didn't seem as though you were trying to really hide it. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you can share a little bit about that. [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to go into the details of it.

8:16 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that many people that are trying to hide their secret sexual basement are not seen in public. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the context there is I was seen with my a fair partner going out in public. [SPEAKER_01]: And someone photos of that and sent it to our partners and my office and [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I mean, we went to a major concert together.

8:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I think at this point, it had been going on for many months. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I wouldn't have said at the time that I wanted to get caught, but looking back on it, I certainly was behaving in a way that I did. [SPEAKER_01]: And I subconsciously, most assuredly, [SPEAKER_01]: needed and wanted this fractured life to end because it's horrible.

9:02 [SPEAKER_01]: It's exhilarating but then it's just devastating and feels like there's no way out or at least for me. [SPEAKER_01]: I felt that way because trying to stop the affair was unsuccessful and imagining telling your partner is mortifying. [SPEAKER_02]: So how did you find out that Ariel knew or that Ariel had received those photographs?

9:23 [SPEAKER_01]: She originally forwarded me an email that kind of described it. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't actually see the photographs until much later. [SPEAKER_01]: But she basically asked me about it. [SPEAKER_01]: And then I told her the truth because she kind of thought that it was like, oh, it must have been me with my sister or something like that.

9:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I told her the truth, it's like all of those things that I had been telling myself, as to why it was okay what I was doing or how it wouldn't really be that big of a deal. [SPEAKER_01]: Everything became clear in that moment, just how much I had been hurting my partner, this person like cared so much about, or at least said that I did, but then clearly it was behaving in a way that [SPEAKER_01]: And it's painful for me to remember and to surface those memories because of just how distraught she was and how much I realized that I hadn't hurt her and coming to an acceptance of that and holding myself accountable in that way of saying that I did that and they were painful choices that I made despite knowing that you shouldn't have just been kind of the journey

10:40 [SPEAKER_02]: So, can you share with us a little bit about the consequences that you experienced after the public discovery of your affair? [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. [SPEAKER_01]: So, like I said, I'm this on-camera personality known for having an adorable family and wife. [SPEAKER_01]: I have business partners who we are all building this comedy brand together.

11:01 [SPEAKER_01]: The immediate consequences were shattering my marriage. [SPEAKER_01]: and then my business partners found out the context of me having a relationship with an employee of our production company, which was concerning to them and they ultimately chose to part ways with me and kind of force both me and aerial away from the brand and even edit me out of videos, which then the audience noticed and was confused about, then the photos kind of went [SPEAKER_01]: and the whole story went viral on the same bread that's me being pushed away from the brand.

11:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just completely overwhelming for me for aerial kind of a slow moving train wreck that over a course of about a month as we're dealing privately with this immense fallout. [SPEAKER_01]: We're also kind of navigating this behind the scenes workplace tension as to like, wow, what's going to happen.

11:58 [SPEAKER_01]: What are these other people going to choose to do? [SPEAKER_01]: And then that all blew up and then once it was public there was a bunch of memes and jokes and videos that a whole bunch of people made about me and about the whole situation and it was just sort of overwhelming and that's when I went to treatment.

12:20 [SPEAKER_02]: silent for a moment because I'm just imagining I've been working with this population for about 20 years. [SPEAKER_02]: I think at this point and I know the devastation that comes with every single discovery and to imagine having that happen and then to have all of the memes and the comments and the opinions and voices from people that thought that they knew you and I get that right because that's [SPEAKER_02]: and people do think that they know you.

12:51 [SPEAKER_02]: At the same time, they don't and you and Ariel were a couple with children and a family that was navigating something deeply personal and then having to deal with the public fall out of that and all those other voices. [SPEAKER_02]: So I just have an unbelievable amount of compassion for both of you having to try to navigate that while you were trying to navigate the reality of your secret life being exposed.

13:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think as everyone in your audience will know it's hard enough navigating this with it's just completely private and then to have your school community know or to have your office community know or to have in my case the entire internet know seemingly. [SPEAKER_01]: But what it led to for aerial was there were now all of a sudden sort of a viral story.

13:43 [SPEAKER_01]: There would be random photographs [SPEAKER_01]: Months prior to discovery that just a fan saw at them just kept up. [SPEAKER_01]: So it was this kind of slow drip of Information that was really really painful for her and not all of it was true So you would get troll emails from people saying oh I slept with him too and blah blah blah This is where she's like I don't even is this what so she didn't even know what to believe [SPEAKER_01]: right, right, and it wasn't until we were able to work through and kind of do a full disclosure that she really had that kind of boundary from the trolls and from the public, because at that then she knew exactly what everything had happened and that went from there.

14:29 [SPEAKER_02]: So I imagine that those people who do know your story and have heard about this likely know more of the salacious details, right, more of the photos and them getting sent and the affair. [SPEAKER_02]: I imagine what most people don't know about is your journey of recovery and what happened after this explosion online and where there were these trolls and memes and [SPEAKER_02]: all sorts of external painful experiences that you were having.

15:00 [SPEAKER_02]: But why don't you share now the story of Ned? [SPEAKER_02]: What happened to you after your life blew up in that way? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the public nature of it, I had to kind of tune that out and just fully shut it down. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you say, did you want to get caught? [SPEAKER_01]: And in some ways, I was like grateful that there was this big rupture in my life where I could kind of stop doing this behavior that I had this deep [SPEAKER_01]: recovery.

15:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I was able to go to inpatient treatment. [SPEAKER_01]: I was able to be surrounded by who are recovering from all sorts of things, whether it was alcoholism, eating disorder, depression, all sorts of things in this language of addiction and cycles of [SPEAKER_01]: where you're running from something to like seek something and you hiding the truth really helped give me a framework to understand what I had been doing and why having an affair was so just all consuming to me and it was really it started on like a personal side of just shutting everything else out and starting to understand these different parts of myself were [SPEAKER_01]: starting to recalibrate my sense of reality.

16:24 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just like, hey, writing down and being explicit, these are all the things that you believed about reality that weren't true, that these were delusions. [SPEAKER_01]: These are all the things that you knew were false, but you could told yourself anyways. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the truth of what happened.

16:39 [SPEAKER_01]: you've lost your job, you've lost your marriage, you've lost friendships, you know, all of the consequences were just, you know, I kind of had to accept them and accept that because of these selfish repeated actions and because of secrets that I had kept, this was the consequences of my life.

17:01 [SPEAKER_02]: This sounds like it must have been incredibly humbling. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So, what did you learn about yourself in treatment, and those early days? [SPEAKER_01]: I learned that I wanted to be liked so much that I wouldn't hide things that were uncomfortable about myself from people that extended from me showcasing myself as a public brand, with only the rosy parts of things, you know, kind of this manufactured version of reality, [SPEAKER_01]: those people pleasing tendencies have been preventing me from really being able to be honest and vulnerable and if something's not working to be able to say why or to express your own needs and to hold other people's needs as their own rather than a lot of I had been experiencing was, you know, I would perceive rejection as a sense of what was bad about me rather than

18:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, even learning about boundaries, an emotional regulation was like a big helpful part of it. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just thinking about the irony of you having such a hard time with rejection, and then as a result of this sort of public discovery, the amount of projection that you write that that was part of the consequences.

18:25 [SPEAKER_02]: It was more than you ever would have imagined. [SPEAKER_01]: I know it's true. [SPEAKER_01]: It is ironic that the performer that just loves being on stage and loves the external validation of an audience or of a crush or of just anyone that's not yourself in intrinsic self-esteem. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, all of a sudden, losing hundreds of thousands of followers and having millions of mean comments being right about you.

18:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's definitely here now three, four years later has led to resilience about external validation. [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to ask that because I think, again, working with addiction for so many years and one of the foundations of most of the addicts that I've worked with is this deep desire for external validation for being like to being approved of and that is a big part of the recovery process is having to learn how to.

19:17 [SPEAKER_02]: get validation from yourself, like where it's most important and not needing that, but you had sort of this, you get it really have a choice in that, right? [SPEAKER_02]: It was something that's just kind of was necessary, right? [SPEAKER_02]: From the beginning for you, and I imagine incredibly painful and really hard.

19:35 [SPEAKER_02]: But how valuable because in life that resilience really is important because the truth is we are as human beings going to be rejected over and over again, whether it's in the workplace, whether it's personally in relationships, whatever it is. [SPEAKER_02]: And when we don't have that resilience and we do take everything so personally.

19:55 [SPEAKER_02]: It creates immense pain, and then is an addict, what do we do we run from pain and hide, right, and keep secrets and have sexual basements or other kinds of basements there. [SPEAKER_02]: They're not always sexual, but in this case certainly that's what happened. [SPEAKER_01]: right exactly.

20:10 [SPEAKER_01]: You're right it's been kind of forced upon me but it's certainly helped me develop that sense of intrinsic self-esteem and to feel comfortable being myself and to accept the horrible things I've done and to just find a way forward regardless. [SPEAKER_01]: So you know now I'm three four years later at a point where I've [SPEAKER_01]: have wanted to put new creative work out there.

20:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And guess what, it's not going well. [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what, that's okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm proud of my work on its own sense and I'm making money in other ways. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a consequence of my actions ultimately. [SPEAKER_01]: But I've been able to not let it define me as, you know, something.

20:49 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's really beautiful to hear because I do a ton of shame work with clients and, you know, one of the important pieces in working with shame and building shame resilience is being able to separate your identity from the experience. [SPEAKER_02]: And when we don't, when we're not able to separate the identity and we feel like we are this, we are just an addict, we are the some of the worst things that we've ever done.

21:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's not something that happens overnight. [SPEAKER_01]: It takes time and it's something I'm still working on. [SPEAKER_01]: But that time in the treatment type of setting was really helpful. [SPEAKER_01]: And that we did a 30 day therapeutic separation where I was only face timing the kids and certain intervals.

21:35 [SPEAKER_01]: not talking to Ariel though and then it's slowly I continue to do so reliving with times where I can come to the family home and be there and then we started to do couples therapy and slowly started to piece things back together and I think I'll told I was doing IOP for like [SPEAKER_01]: Six or seven months, I continued to do that program for a good amount of time on that community and the friendships that I made there and the fellowships that I made there People I'm in contact with every day to this day, and as challenging as that period was for me I'm immensely grateful that I was able to take that time to heal and To start to rebuild a new version of myself when that was less reliant on others for joy and able to find a sense of peace and

22:22 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and again, there's this irony that you were publicly presenting this one side of yourself, this curated version of yourself to millions of people out there who are watching you and in that way you're living this double life and you're not living according to your values and all of these things and then you get caught, you get exposed.

22:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds like, then you actually found people who got to know the real you. [SPEAKER_02]: You couldn't hide anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: You came into treatment and it's like, you buried it all. [SPEAKER_02]: This is who I am. [SPEAKER_02]: This is what's happened to me. [SPEAKER_02]: These are the parts of myself that I've been hiding from and I've been hiding from the world.

22:59 [SPEAKER_02]: And while a lot of the rest of the world were spending their time making up memes and being hurtful and saying harmful things, the people that were actually getting to know you, I imagine we're offering support and love. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because they were all going through versions of the same thing.

23:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's something that I realized is it doesn't matter if you're famous or not. [SPEAKER_01]: There's infinite ways to totally mess up your life and to suffer the deep, deep consequences of addiction or just bad choices and being in those rooms where people are sharing that and this empathetic acceptance of each other.

23:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was very healing for me and a big reason why I wanted to do a show like the podcast I just have been working on which is called rock bottom and it's like stories of people's lowest moments and how they overcame them and you know people obviously filter that show through me cheating on aerial and some people are like [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's just profiting off of cheating.

24:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this is how can you be a rock bottom if you're starting a podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: And I hear those criticisms. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's reasonable that people would think that, but I believe in the work. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if it can help just one person by sharing those stories of recovery.

24:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it's worth it. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, I think that's really important work. [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to give you the opportunity net to talk to those people out there who've betrayed a partner, both men and women, who might be at the part of their journey where they don't yet understand fully the impact of betrayal on the partner.

24:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I think even you, I imagine would say that, you know, where you were when you first got discovered and where you are now, there's a big difference in what you understand about the impact on Ariel. [SPEAKER_02]: It got bigger and bigger and more clear over time. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure at the beginning you knew obviously she was hurt and devastated, but it's so much more than that.

24:59 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very clear that we're here to tell you your story, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And Ariel's not here to tell her story. [SPEAKER_02]: But I would love for you to share from your experience what you saw as how this impacted your partner. [SPEAKER_02]: Because this is a huge opportunity for those who are listening to pay really good attention if you keep asking your partner to stop asking questions.

25:25 [SPEAKER_02]: If you are thinking or saying that your partner is overreacting or wanting them to move on or asking, how long is this going to take? [SPEAKER_02]: That is more harmful. [SPEAKER_02]: And that often comes from really like number one, the compartmentalization, the deep shame, the denial, all of that.

25:42 [SPEAKER_02]: But the truth is if there's going to be healing, there needs to be an understanding and an naming and acknowledgement of the depth of partner trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're able to speak to that, I think many people would really get a lot of value from it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the partner trauma that runs incredibly deep and it's certainly not something that I realized in that moment of discovery.

26:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember even that she's in tears and screaming at me as everything in her world that she knows is falling apart screaming, taking me back to the airport. [SPEAKER_01]: She had just arrived. [SPEAKER_01]: We were going to go to a wedding and she obviously didn't want to go to the wedding to fly back to LA.

26:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Even then I remember thinking like, [SPEAKER_01]: it'll probably be fine. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so just not aware of the depth of trauma this was causing on my part. [SPEAKER_02]: So what did you see over time? [SPEAKER_02]: What did you observe that shows you how much pain she was in? [SPEAKER_01]: over time, I observed that it was just a complete unraveling of her whole fabric of reality that she didn't know what was true and what was not true, the things that were previously joyful memories became poison, things that there's a hypervigilance around.

26:56 [SPEAKER_01]: anything related to the effort partner or anything related to the potential secret, you know, I've seen her have a sense of strength and resilience, but then at the same moment, just things will switch and be very fragile and triggers will come just seemingly out of nowhere, you know, and this is even still like three [SPEAKER_01]: for you, you know, this is not like, oh, do a year of just weekly couples therapy and you're, you know, everything's back to normal.

27:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's, you know, it's, she has such sadness around the rosy vision of her life and our life that she had. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's rebuilding herself in her own way and finding joy within herself and not through our relationship anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: any sort of like trying to explain something or trying to put spin on something, you know, even when there are small ways I catch myself doing that, even a very small explanation that you think you as the betraying spouse, making a rationalization, and validates the betrayed partners really.

28:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So I've had to catch myself. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because what I see most often is that the more somebody acknowledges their partner's pain, the deeper their shame and the harder it is to tolerate seeing the person that way and then, you know, with addiction, there's so much cognitive distortion happening that impaired thinking that says it's not as bad as it seems or whatever the stories that you tell yourself to feel better.

28:26 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: But that's not reality. [SPEAKER_02]: The reality is very much that this person felt safest in the relationship with you and then that safety net or the safety cord. [SPEAKER_02]: What if you want to say is cut in an instant? [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have children or you are working to repair and build something new together, you're then seeing this person having ambiguous grief where you're mourning the relationship, but here they are, you're having coffee together, but it's not the same because it can ever be the same.

28:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not something that you can really talk about, even our first public statement together, you know. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's very hard to convey nuance of all of these feelings and a public form, but even in a private form. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you may tell your friends, oh, we're working through the aftermath of an affair, and I don't think that anyone can fully understand what you're going through.

29:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Even closest friends might say like, [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you really messed up, or that was a crappy thing you did, but glad you guys are doing what you need to do and kind of working through things for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Even though it's a very nice thing to say, the person has no idea that depth of pain and complete identity fragmentation that the betrayed partner is feeling.

29:39 [SPEAKER_02]: That's so true, Ned, and I think a big part of that also is that most people, unless they study psychology or human development or something like this happens, they don't learn about attachment and attachment theory and the role of attachment in relationships and adult relationships and when you really understand attachment.

29:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It becomes very easy to understand how betrayal can sort of cut to the depths of somebody's safety and place in the world. [SPEAKER_02]: But that's not something we learn about, typically, and I think we should, I think we should all learn about attachment, because we all experience attachment in our life or we don't experience attachment, and then as a result of that, [SPEAKER_02]: have a lot of problems relationally and probably in other areas of life as well as we get older.

30:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps if we did get education on attachment and had more of an understanding and a foundation of understanding that we would have more insight into how we're showing up, we're not showing up in our relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a great point. [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like here it's ripped out of your chest, right?

30:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're being torn away from your parental figures. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's helped me understand how painful it is because when it came to the public nature of things, obviously a lot of people do not like cheating and let me know in various comments and DMs. [SPEAKER_01]: And then other people might say, I don't understand this reaction.

31:00 [SPEAKER_01]: He just cheated. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like he murdered someone. [SPEAKER_01]: And because it's very common, like a lot of people get divorces or cheat or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: but now seeing the pain first hand, I'm like realizing that it kind of doesn't matter if it's common or it's so so painful because it is completely uprooting the entire fabric of your reality.

31:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, when you've spent years with somebody believing them to be a certain person and even entering the relationship based on who you believe this person is and that person led you to believe that, you know, and then you've got years invested and then you find out it's not just the betrayal it's realizing everything that happened it's starting to put together this sort of like a film of what happened like oh wait, so that night when I thought this that's what actually happened or when you went on that vacation or when I was doing this, [SPEAKER_02]: and it all starts coming together and then it's realizing so you did more than cheat, you lied to me, right?

32:00 [SPEAKER_02]: You looked at me, you lied to me, you spent time away from our family, you took resources, maybe money, time, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Attention, away from me and from our children, [SPEAKER_02]: and gave that away, so it's all of that that's so painful, you know, I think when we talk about cheating and betrayal people look at the act, like that one big act, right?

32:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Thinking of of that and truthfully, that's like one very small part of, I don't want to say small, that's not fair, because it's small, but it really is just the, what's the word I'm looking for? [SPEAKER_02]: It's the [SPEAKER_01]: Tip of the iceberg. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: It's the tip of the iceberg.

32:40 [SPEAKER_02]: It's everything that comes after that, that I think causes so much pain. [SPEAKER_02]: I think for a partner as the history unfolds and questions get answered, the more pain there is to be honest. [SPEAKER_02]: I think probably that's why after disclosure, even the disclosure is so important because every partner deserves to know their reality.

33:01 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that that's one of the reasons there's so much pain after that because now it's recognizing all of the behaviors that were accompanying the secrecy. [SPEAKER_02]: All of those kind of abusive patterns of behavior and that creates an extraordinary amount of grief. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

33:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And some of the ways that I would rationalize that to myself are around the concept of lies of omission, which I don't think I knew before this process, but I would say, oh, well, you know, she asked me directly. [SPEAKER_01]: I would tell her, but she doesn't need to know this. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to not say this.

33:34 [SPEAKER_01]: And then [SPEAKER_01]: learning after the fact, oh, that's called a lie of omission. [SPEAKER_01]: You're still damaging this person's sense of their gut or they're trusting you because you're not telling the whole truth. [SPEAKER_02]: And a live omission is all about trying to control another person's reality, but also it's a very selfish thing and that's saying that it's always conscious.

33:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of times it's not conscious at all, but if you're leaving something out, it's usually because you know that if you were to include that information, there would be some consequence. [SPEAKER_02]: It could be that your partner gets angry or doesn't trust you or decides they want to leave you or whatever it is.

34:13 [SPEAKER_02]: but then you're taking away their ability to make an informed choice. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: And as we've continued this journey, we attempted to rebuild a romantic relationship for some years and then eventually decided that we were better as friends and are now kind of rebuilding, like a friendship and a co-parenting partnership.

34:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So as part of that eventually we have started dating other people and now it can be very challenging to understand the difference between a boundary of privacy and that's something where you're trying to manage your perception as someone else's perception, which perhaps is something that some of your audience could relate to if they're further along.

34:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I know a lot of people in this community are trying to rebuild just marriage and that's it. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's what we've experienced lately in the last six months is those sort of challenges. [SPEAKER_02]: That makes me think of, well, two things. [SPEAKER_02]: One is that your story is one that shows that there aren't just, you know, just this either you stay or you go, or if you go, you're never speak to the person again, or you hate each other, right?

35:20 [SPEAKER_02]: There's this other place where sometimes even when you work towards something and you're hoping to rebuild, it doesn't always go that way. [SPEAKER_02]: And that's really beautiful, not just for you and for aerial, but also for your children, for your family. [SPEAKER_02]: But then that comes with a whole lot of complexity, which is what you're just talking about because if you have no contact or you don't talk or you just talk about the kids and there's no friendship there, then you don't have to worry about what it's like to try to have privacy or navigate what should I say and look at boundaries.

35:50 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very black or white. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like we don't talk about any of this. [SPEAKER_02]: But with what you're doing with Ariel and the choices that you guys have made in wanting to heal your relationship and have a friendship, that does give you a lot of more challenging things to have to navigate.

36:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's led to more boundary conversations and more explicitly defining what we want information on and what we don't because I've over this three or four years of working together and really grateful that we've built a new sense of friendship and a co-parenting partnership and a, you know, the type of relationship where we can go on a family vacation together or spend the family holiday together.

36:28 [SPEAKER_01]: or have dinner altogether, or like all go to a fun event, we spend a good amount of time as a family, and I think that's a wonderful thing for our children and for us as friends. [SPEAKER_01]: We even chose to live in Greece last summer for a month, which was a big adventure and incredible experience for the children, and then we would not have been able to make that choice without working through all of this and having these big challenges.

36:54 [SPEAKER_02]: I love that you're sharing that net because one of the greatest fears that people have in all of this is how is this going to impact my kids, how is it impacting them when we're living in the same house and we're trying to navigate all of this trauma and how would it impact my kids if we separated or we divorced, would they be okay, there's so much fear about that.

37:15 [SPEAKER_02]: So I love that you're sharing this experience that you've been able to keep this family unit intact. [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to talk a little bit about your kids at all and how they're doing? [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know that this is a public podcast, so I do want to keep much of my children's lives private now.

37:30 [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of something. [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing differently than in the past, um, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: But the kids are doing great. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, having two parents that love them and are able to coexist and create family memories. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's been really wonderful for them.

37:46 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, now in this past year, we live in two [SPEAKER_01]: Daddy's house and mommy's house are different reasons and then there are times when I'll bring over bagels to mommy's house or mommy will come bring over pizza and we'll all kind of have that shared time and between me and Ariel and you know it's just completely botonic and we do have a romantic lives that's different and private but you know there's still a sense of connection and I think a sense of [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, when you're rebuilding from betrayal, there's this sense of the past is gone.

38:25 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not repairing a marriage so much as you're building a completely new one because the old one died. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to grieve it. [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like we went through that process for our past life in so many ways as gone. [SPEAKER_01]: And even though we're not building a new romantic relationship, we're building this new way of living and way of family life, I think keeps all the things that were good about our relationship and we're working even before, and that we've built even stronger now and allows space for us to express ourselves as individuals and to have more of a sense of autonomy.

39:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, I hope that story can be inspiring for people who may be feeling like the trapped between the, oh, we're separating, and I'm never going to speak to you versus, oh, now we're keeping our marriage. [SPEAKER_02]: And something that I hear really loudly in this conversation is that while the marriage is not going to continue that parts over that did not mean that you decided to go back out and live a life without integrity that you continue to work on yourself and living honestly, not perfectly, but wanting at least and making efforts to live a very different way.

39:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And a way that's really integrated with all parts of myself. [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard, but it feels much better to be kind of living an alignment with my values and to be accepting of who I am and I would never wish this on anyone. [SPEAKER_01]: But I certainly feel much more, I don't know, even how to describe it, just like a sense of everything is aligned and integrated in my life now.

40:07 [SPEAKER_02]: and those people that like you know you right they really know you as opposed to you having all this you know millions of people that are fans and like you and and think you're fantastic but not really knowing you yeah and there's something about that about being able to be in relationship with people who know all sides of you all versions of you and still choose to love you.

40:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's really a wonderful thing and it's also made me see that external validation that's like it's all kind of fake and it's like, you know, at the end of day, the job is a job and what really matters most is being able to be seen and be acknowledged in relationships that you have and to live according to your values and hold that sense of integrity and recovery work in the program and everything have been super helpful in that.

40:53 [SPEAKER_01]: It's ironic that I'm saying all of that about external legislation and we're doing a public podcast, but I think the point of it is to help other people that are going through similar things because you know, I don't care if this gets a thousand views or million views, you know, it's like I just want to be able to connect with your audience.

41:10 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's hope it just finds the people who need it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, this podcast is not about external validation. [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I think for me, I can speak personally there, you know, in almost every episode, I have to worry that I'll say something that's going to be hurtful or something that's not going to feel right or people aren't going to agree or I'm going to upset people.

41:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So I very much understand that I'm not going to necessarily get a lot of positive validation, although I should say that and thank people for giving me feedback because [SPEAKER_02]: my understanding is that people do get a lot from listening, not just to me, but to the guests that I bring onto this podcast.

41:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what it's about. [SPEAKER_02]: It is about giving people hope and supporting them in the journey. [SPEAKER_02]: So as we are wrapping up, what would you like to say to those listening? [SPEAKER_02]: What would you like to leave them with? [SPEAKER_02]: Remember, we've got betrayed partners listening, we've got people who've betrayed.

42:04 [SPEAKER_02]: We have people that their relationship has ended. [SPEAKER_02]: people whose relationships are healing and people who don't know what's going on. [SPEAKER_02]: What would you say to all of them? [SPEAKER_01]: It brings me back to the time when I was first listening to your podcast in this deep crisis moment.

42:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember driving back and forth between treatment and spending time with the kids listening to your podcast in the car and just going through every single episode and like relying on every single word or guest to give me some sense of hope and my life as I was facing [SPEAKER_01]: the spouse business partners, millions of people that indulge me.

42:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just cling to any sense of hope. [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess I hope in this moment if someone's listening, looking for hope that there is hope and accepting the reality and taking accountability if you're a wayward spouse. [SPEAKER_01]: And then just [SPEAKER_01]: the patience of that it's not going to be something that happens immediately, but it's kind of a lifelong practice really that you'll start to cultivate over time and just one day after the other maybe one day you'll look back and say, well, here I've started making little changes in my life and now I can look back and say, hey, here's all the ways those changes have stacked up to become habits and then to become a sense of your identity operating system for life.

43:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And now you can never undo that pain for either person. [SPEAKER_01]: But you can eventually start to process it and to come to a new sense of normal that I hope for you is stronger with more integrity, more aligned with your values and build steeper connections with important people in your life and to know the things that are not as important to just for what they are.

43:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Just noise. [SPEAKER_01]: And you've certainly learned that lesson. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm really grateful that you have trusted me on your journey through this process. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm really grateful that you chose to share your story in this forum because I do think that there's a lot of hope here.

44:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's a reminder that you don't know how it's going to go. [SPEAKER_02]: We can't plan sort of what the outcome is. [SPEAKER_02]: But the idea that I really want people to take away is that healing can happen regardless of the ultimate outcome. [SPEAKER_02]: Right, healing is about ourselves.

44:26 [SPEAKER_02]: and you can't heal a relationship when you haven't healed yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: So I appreciate the work that you've done and, you know, I hope you continue to grow and heal and thrive and be happy and fun joy and all of that stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for your really appreciate it.

44:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thanks to all of my listeners as always for tuning in for being here. [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope you'll get a lot of value from this podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm looking forward to seeing you all again soon. [SPEAKER_02]: Take care. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast where you're healing is our number one priority.

45:08 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325. [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about.

45:33 [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community. [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.