104. Neuro-Difference, Betrayal Trauma, and Healing

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couple's heel podcast was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:10 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: Hello everyone, this is Marnie and welcome back to the Helping Pupples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: Today I'm going to be talking about a topic that I had not talked about before and for all of my long-time listeners, you will know that I have over 100 episodes now and again, not once have I talked about this particular topic.

1:44 [SPEAKER_02]: So for many, many people in the recovery community and the recovery world, [SPEAKER_02]: Traditional one size fits all treatment models just doesn't work and actually can feel like another layer of trauma in trying to get help and that's if their brain doesn't process information and sensory input or social cues in the standard way.

2:07 [SPEAKER_02]: So when you have a neurodivergent individual, or couple, or person, whether they are the one who is the trade, or they are the one who is the betrayed partner, then the language of anything from empathy, to boundaries, regulation, all of that often needs to be translated into more of a [SPEAKER_02]: And so I have invited Candice Christianson to join us today to have a very meaningful and deep conversation about treating a neurodifferent person.

2:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just going to give you guys a tiny bit of information about Candice before we get going. [SPEAKER_02]: So Candice Christianson is a clinical visionary and a leading voice at the intersection of neurodiffference, complex trauma and relational integrity. [SPEAKER_02]: as the founder of the Namaste Center for Healing, with over 20 years of experience as a trauma therapist, Candace works at the critical intersection of neurodivergence and high complexity recovery.

3:09 [SPEAKER_02]: She has dedicated her career to helping highly traumatized neurodifferent adults and couples navigate the volatile landscapes of intimate partner violence, domestic abuse, [SPEAKER_02]: And product behavioral and substance addictions like sex porn finances and food. [SPEAKER_02]: Candace.

3:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so glad that you're here and I have a lot to learn. [SPEAKER_02]: I am so excited about talking to you about this topic. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to say right off the bat for people that Candice has also written a book, which I feel like was so incredibly needed.

3:47 [SPEAKER_02]: The book is called Love Sex and Autism, the Radical Truth about intimacy and neurodifference. [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I'm really excited to get into all of it. [SPEAKER_02]: So why don't we just start Candice with you sharing a little bit about how you came into this space, specifically.

4:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my own journey is how I came into this space, Bernie. [SPEAKER_01]: I had been missed diagnosed my whole life with different diagnoses anxious borderline avoidant and finally in my mid 40s. [SPEAKER_01]: I know I was anxious. [SPEAKER_01]: I knew I had a history of child sexual abuse, but I also knew [SPEAKER_01]: For me that there was a lot going on really socially and sensory wise communication wise that didn't fit the boxes that people were trying to stuff me in.

4:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So finally I had a really astute clinician who said, have you ever wondered if you're autistic and I had I had done a lot of my own self diagnosing, which is actually quite common. [SPEAKER_01]: for folks that are autistic and undignosed because we rabbit hole everything. [SPEAKER_01]: It becomes a special interest if you will, our panel group deck, and understanding ourselves.

4:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was really validating to my entire system to have someone finally see me. [SPEAKER_01]: And then came the bigger challenge, which was Chris and I had been limping along for several years. [SPEAKER_01]: And he had gotten online to find support for partners, and the response was your doomed.

5:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, run your marriage won't make it your relationship won't last and he actually was the one that said we've got to figure this out because both of us knew that we wanted our relationship, but we knew that the way it was going wasn't working. [SPEAKER_01]: So really, this book, it's our story, along with clinical stories and then a ton of resources research from throughout the years of me doing this work and really planting my flag, us planting our flag at Namaste Center for Healing.

5:49 [SPEAKER_01]: to say, hey, to those of you that have neurologically different brains, whether it's biological, so we're talking autism 80 HD audio HD, which really now is a combination OCD, or so many, or an environmental neurodiffference, which you know very well from partners who are portrayed PTSD.

6:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, we have tips, tools, and resources here. [SPEAKER_01]: We can help you heal from this. [SPEAKER_01]: And let me add one more thing. [SPEAKER_01]: The reason I say neurodifferent is because so many labels that hurt me and so many labels of hurt so many other people that are similar to me with my brain.

6:28 [SPEAKER_01]: That I really feel like I'm neurologically different. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel like I'm divergent. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel like I'm deficient. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I really wanted to instill hope for autistic ADHD couples that you each have a neural culture and a neural language and there's a difference.

6:49 [SPEAKER_01]: There's not a deficiency just a difference and it's really just like a culture. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really about learning the way that we communicate and the way that we connect. [SPEAKER_01]: That's it really. [SPEAKER_01]: It is. [SPEAKER_01]: If we can start without foundational premise [SPEAKER_01]: Then we can do some hard of work, like working through the betrayal, if there's betrayal, right?

7:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Like talking about intimacy, like working through the day-to-day challenges of executive function. [SPEAKER_01]: But we have to start with the foundation of having a neural language that we each understand. [SPEAKER_02]: There are so many things I want to say right now that I don't, I don't even know which one to first of all, thank you for sharing your story at for banking and a passion project because the reality is that I have seen so many patients struggle and are looking for tools that to be completely honest, I haven't necessarily been able to provide and will often refer out for more specialized treatment.

7:44 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, with betrayal trauma, it's already so difficult to heal. [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much complexity when you don't have any neurodiffference, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And so this does. [SPEAKER_02]: It adds like another level of complexity and then with all the mystique, no seas that happens.

8:01 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm so grateful that you're sharing your story because you obviously have a story of hope. [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what people always need to hear. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're hope merchants, if you think about the work that you and I do, we are hope merchants and so many of our clients, they come in without any hope and so we're holding a lot of that hope, and especially if there's a difference in neuro type and.

8:24 [SPEAKER_01]: My partner has betrayed me in all these ways and now we just got diagnosed with autism is an excuse. [SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean? [SPEAKER_01]: What do we even do with us? [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is for you, Marty and the clinicians coaches that work with any human that's autistic ADHD any couple because you also have just a treasure trove of tools.

8:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a whole chapter on sex-important addiction, a whole chapter, chapter 14, or oh my gosh you guys are in conflict or oh let's talk about different types of empathy. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about the different neural languages and neural communicators which wonder you, let's talk about it.

9:00 [SPEAKER_02]: What if you have Candace a couple and you have one person who has a neurodifference and the other person does not? [SPEAKER_02]: Do you in the book but also in your own practice is that something you come across a lot and you address? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Because I imagine it's really, really stressful and frustrating for both people, like one person to not feel like they can be understood, right?

9:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And they're so different than the other person who wants to understand and wants to communicate, but doesn't know how or doesn't have the tool. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: And what I think, too, is that we all have different brains. [SPEAKER_01]: We really do. [SPEAKER_01]: People are now challenging this notion of neurotypical, especially I like to say, especially post-pandemic, because I really feel like the pandemic was so traumatizing in so many ways.

9:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you think about it with the clients we work with, when there's betrayal, the brain changes with trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: The brain absolutely changes. [SPEAKER_01]: So with post-traumatic stress, [SPEAKER_01]: even present traumatic stress because I work with a lot of partners who are experiencing intimate partner violence or IPB, that changes the brain.

10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: The brain literally goes on overdrive all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm often working with one partner that's their brain, the other person is diagnosed autistic and likely with autism we're going to see ADD or ADHD. [SPEAKER_01]: And so again, it's really about that, but there's also some really, I think foundational tools that we can offer like let's slow this down, let's slow things down because traumatized systems hyper vigilance systems process really fast.

10:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But you might have a partner who's autistic or ADHD that actually processes slower because the input is just a lot for their system. [SPEAKER_01]: And so they might freeze, they might be feeling so much energetically and emotionally of what their betrayed partners feeling. [SPEAKER_01]: that they don't know what to do with it.

10:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So we say slowers faster. [SPEAKER_01]: And we're working really with both nervous systems. [SPEAKER_01]: I talk about this a lot in the book, just really slowing it down, working with the nervous systems so that we can actually get somewhere with healing. [SPEAKER_02]: That's why I should say, would you agree that oftentimes neurodifferent folks, by the way, I'm using that term, I never used to before, I saw it outside and it's funny, you wrote it up.

11:21 [SPEAKER_02]: When you said, let me just say one more thing, I was literally about to say, can you explain why you use the term neurodifferent? [SPEAKER_02]: So, thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: I learned something new and I'm already putting it into practice. [SPEAKER_02]: So, a lot of, [SPEAKER_02]: neurodifferent people often feel, I think, I've seen this.

11:39 [SPEAKER_02]: They feel broken or like something's the matter with me when they're trying to recover in a, you know, just sort of like a typical recovery model. [SPEAKER_02]: So what are we missing when we don't look at this through more of a neuroaffirming lens? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, there's so much that's missed.

11:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe I can answer in terms of how autistic and ADHD like to include that, people really kind of process the world, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So believe it or not, I like to start with you think about an autistic ADHD kiddo, like we think about a child. [SPEAKER_01]: They're processing the energy and emotions of everyone around them.

12:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So imagine a classroom. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lot of energy and emotion. [SPEAKER_01]: We have what's called sensory gating issues, so it's hard for us to filter out. [SPEAKER_01]: So it is like we're being just flooded with information. [SPEAKER_01]: Then we have this sensory environment that no one talks about.

12:37 [SPEAKER_01]: for us the lights so much noise way too many people and then we have all these things like sensory like touch like tags seems on clothing the way clothes feel what we have to brush our teeth I don't like how that feels [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to call my hair. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think about that for kiddos.

12:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and then let's add on the piece of now you're going to go into a world where the neural language is very new once it's not direct like your language. [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to give you a deck of no cards and everyone else has a regular card deck and you just have to figure out what everyone's referring to.

13:19 [SPEAKER_01]: right? [SPEAKER_01]: Then let's add in sex. [SPEAKER_01]: No one's talking about that. [SPEAKER_01]: You just have to figure it out, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So, but you're not supposed to learn it online because you're bad. [SPEAKER_01]: You're just supposed to know and then this is what you're supposed to do, right?

13:34 [SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to give eye contact, which for an autistic person is like torture because it actually puts us in a state of being traumatized. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a hyper-vigilant. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh. [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's all these things going on for a kiddo than a teenager and desperately wanting to fit in, which is also a trauma response, funning to fit in, I'll do whatever you want for you to like me, being bullied because we're different, right?

14:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you have someone that gets exposed online to porn. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, wow, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So sensory seeking is a way that we cope. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing that today with my little stem toy, just holding out my finger, I feel the pressure it feels really good. [SPEAKER_01]: It helps me focus on you, else we stay calm in my body.

14:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It helps me actually articulate what I'm saying. [SPEAKER_01]: But if you imagine a child and parents are saying in a teenager, don't quit tapping your foot. [SPEAKER_01]: It's annoying. [SPEAKER_01]: Quit tapping your pen. [SPEAKER_01]: You're driving me crazy, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Stop.

14:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Then we learn to literally. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like taking a blind person's came away and saying, just figure out your environment. [SPEAKER_02]: This is heartbreaking to me as I'm listening to you. [SPEAKER_02]: It really is. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's clinicians. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like on the chapter, as I like review of some reviewing it a lot right now, because like the presentation I'm doing and I'm thinking, I'm so glad to be able to speak about what I'm writing because what I don't want is for anyone that is experiencing betrayal to think I'm minimizing.

15:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not minimizing the experience of an autistic person. [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of their actions because they're still committing betrayal, and I say that, you know, you still committed betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: Just because your autistic doesn't mean you have a license to betray. [SPEAKER_01]: What I am doing though is hopefully helping people understand why.

15:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're an anxious kiddo and anxious teen, you're exposed to porn visually, it feels good. [SPEAKER_01]: So visual stimming, like I'm stimming here, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, then you masturbate, tactile stimulation. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, then you actually ejaculate, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, well guess what happens to the body?

15:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Whoa, my gosh, this is my anti-anxiety medication. [SPEAKER_01]: After all day of holding it together, masking, so camouflaging who we are, because we're trying to fit in so bad, we get homework exhausted. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, then we have to practice, do homework, there's so many demands.

15:52 [SPEAKER_01]: The either melt down, which looks like a tantrum, it's not, it's a physiological response that we can't control, or we shut down because the world is just too much. [SPEAKER_01]: So we literally crawl in a hole or closet or play video games quietly, right? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just giving examples, but as adults, right?

16:08 [SPEAKER_01]: They might cope in these maladaptive ways, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Anything too much out of control, anything is problematic. [SPEAKER_01]: And what you and I are in the business of is working with people that have out of control sexual behavior. [SPEAKER_01]: So when I work with autistic folks who are struggling with that, that's really how I explain it, and I explain it in chapter 14.

16:28 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is what happens, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Another thing is like transactional sex. [SPEAKER_02]: That was just kind of true. [SPEAKER_01]: That sex is very common. [SPEAKER_01]: Why? [SPEAKER_01]: Because we thrive in predictability. [SPEAKER_01]: We thrive in predictability.

16:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I have to follow a schedule every single day or I'm a mess. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I just would like, voila, all my time is at right. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know, we thrive in predictability and helps us feel safe. [SPEAKER_01]: Even if for folks that are like, my partner really struggles with predict schedules and already teens, they struggle with it.

17:05 [SPEAKER_01]: They might say they struggle, but it saves us. [SPEAKER_01]: It is literally a life-samer for us, but without predictability, [SPEAKER_01]: You go to work and the rules keep changing or overwhelmed. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and let's throw in a relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: There are no rules. [SPEAKER_01]: No one's told you about the rules.

17:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and guess what. [SPEAKER_01]: We're also going to throw in sex. [SPEAKER_01]: You're just supposed to know that's what's wrong with like the regular world and the culture. [SPEAKER_01]: So, and therapists go, well, let me. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we're see. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's right. [SPEAKER_01]: We're just going to put you through the same workbook in this, but you can't you can't.

17:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to start where we start, which is, let's soften the lighting in the room. [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm doing a web call, I'll say, let's just try having natural light. [SPEAKER_01]: Just turn the lights off. [SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel right now? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, I feel like I can breathe all of a sudden close your door.

17:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see if we can get some quiet in the room. [SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything you could just fidget with. [SPEAKER_01]: while we're on the call, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just thinking going back to the way you were saying about little ones, you know, against, but let's say ADHD or autism, that oftentimes they get in trouble for fidgeting.

18:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Here you're talking about using something like that as a resource to help ensue, and it's often something that they're actually, you know, they're shamed about or they get in trouble for. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Every adult I work with, I'll say that. [SPEAKER_01]: Did you STEM as a kid?

18:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you fidget? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I was told to stop and then we'll do intensive with people where they'll come in and we have STEM toys in a basket and many people, it's like they've been told it's bad to STEM. [SPEAKER_01]: They're like holding themselves and I'll just say keep doing whatever works for you.

18:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Just whatever works for you, right? [SPEAKER_01]: because the first thing clinically that we want to do is help the person that's autistic get comfortable in the sensory environment. [SPEAKER_01]: If I already don't feel safe and many don't because they've had trauma from therapists and medical providers that are well-meaning, but just not educated, we've got to create safety.

19:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And first we do that sensory-wise. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's demolize what you need, you know, that's why it's not my stay is that an actual house. [SPEAKER_01]: It's incredibly sensory soothing. [SPEAKER_01]: You the minute you walk in, the smells are very gentle. [SPEAKER_01]: The lighting is very soft.

19:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I've had autistic people say, I feel like I can breathe again when I walk in your building. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I love it, sure. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm listening to it. [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't have an autism diagnosis, but I'm thinking I want to move in. [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to see it as soon as possible.

19:33 [SPEAKER_02]: It just sounds comforting. [SPEAKER_01]: It is. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so comforting. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's comforting to all of us. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, humans have been through a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And then when we add in, you know, I've worked in the substance abuse arena that was very hard and very different because cheating with a bottle is very different than cheating with a person or a porn.

19:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so traumatic. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a whole other level of trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a whole [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's complex. [SPEAKER_01]: It's complicated. [SPEAKER_01]: And then when you find out your partner has a different neurology neuro type, it's like, What do we even do with this?

20:12 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of partners will say, is this an excuse? [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely not. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a license to do what they did. [SPEAKER_01]: And if we can just help you understand what's going on, so at least the two of you can communicate differently, perhaps better, perhaps when boundaries are being set, we can have a clarity in the space around it, right?

20:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe what's happening with your partner is what I call persistent, not pathological, but demand avoidance. [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many demands, maybe your partner is like, [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's talk about that. [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean the betrayed partner or the partner that carries all the cognitive load or all the load and so much of the load has to like run around and not have needs and just constantly take care of their autistic partner.

21:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's educate on what it is and then let's support each of you, the autistic person as well to be responsible for their own care, but also what are some ways that two of you can communicate better, so both of you feel like your needs are met. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think that that's really a challenging dynamic because in the world of betrayal trauma, oftentimes, especially in the earlier stages, right, where a partner doesn't feel safe at all and their world's blown up, it's very hard for them to give space to the betraying partner and to their needs.

21:39 [SPEAKER_02]: But when we're talking about what we're talking about now, you can't ignore the fact that that person does have needs and that things might actually escalate and be worse right if that person is not getting what they need and that could be really hard for a betrayed partner really hard.

21:59 [SPEAKER_01]: When I was writing this morning, I kept telling like the editors, we have to make sure that the language is supportive and very sensitive to betrayed partners. [SPEAKER_01]: Because there is a delicate dance. [SPEAKER_01]: I talk about the Cassandra syndrome in chapter 13, when I talk about abuse.

22:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to say so many of the betrayed partners we work with are also victims of intimate partner violence, IPV. [SPEAKER_01]: you can be autistic and still be abusing your partner. [SPEAKER_01]: You can be autistic and still be narcissistic. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying everyone is by any means.

22:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Cassandra syndrome is really those partners that their needs just keep getting shut. [SPEAKER_01]: and then they find out, oh, this is what's been going on behind my back. [SPEAKER_01]: The trail on top of like I'm literally jumping to fonding, I'm rescuing, I'm doing, but what about me?

22:56 [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to be really sensitive to that. [SPEAKER_01]: One of the sections in chapter 13, I talk about is how autistic Cassandra's are very vulnerable to Casanovas, and those are the individuals that are very [SPEAKER_01]: which you see, we can see an autistic person can still be deceptive in their sophisticated addiction because addiction is very sophisticated.

23:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I really hope that me saying that helps the partners listening that when I talk about [SPEAKER_01]: thinking about your autistic partners needs. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of like, you might just need to slow down with what you're saying literally let's just slow down right let's just pause, but I'm not asking for some great big magical thing that a betrayed partner is needing to do I'm not.

23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I know from my own lived experience and so many folks that I've worked with now over the years that it is my responsibility as the autistic ADHD person to access and use the resources and the tools hence what motivated me to write this so many resources and tools right and then work with the team of people we have to work with the team of people to make sure that we have [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I want to show you from a moment to looking at this from the perspective of the partner who is the one that has neurodiffference.

24:30 [SPEAKER_02]: So, the trail trauma is inherently dysregulating. [SPEAKER_02]: We know that. [SPEAKER_02]: So, for a neurodivergent or a neurodivergent partner who may already struggle with sexual processing, right or flooding or activation, how does the trail trauma impact their nervous system differently?

24:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my goodness. [SPEAKER_01]: It just created this slide so I'm presenting the cultural autism studies at Yale tomorrow it will be recorded so it's called KC C a S why I say that just because it's fresh so I'm glad you asked it's really fresh. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the thing so. [SPEAKER_01]: For an autistic person, a betrayed partner that's also autistic, a big part of what is so traumatizing is this justice piece.

25:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Where's the justice? [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: Where's the justice in this? [SPEAKER_01]: And then also not just having complex PTSD, but there's a lot of like rage itself. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think partners do that anyway that are betrayed, but I see it like hardcore like loud voices loud parts that are just angry itself, right?

25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: You're so like really critical. [SPEAKER_01]: There's also this like recovery and their partner's addiction and their partners behavior becomes their rabbit hole their entire life their passion project their special interest and so that in and of itself can be absolutely exhausting. [SPEAKER_01]: Depression, struggling, like everything gets exacerbated, talk about sensory overload.

26:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I mean, I have partners that are ADHD or autistic, they will say I literally just sat on the corner of the bathtub and just stared at my phone and I realized it would have been like three hours. [SPEAKER_01]: So like just the trauma and the burnout that I mean, there is such a thing as autistic burnout and ADHD burnout, but the burnout and the intensity and the exhaustion, it's like magnified because again, we're already sensitive to the emotion and energy around us.

26:46 [SPEAKER_01]: There tends to be even a folder autistic, the betrayed partner a lot of times little on here is they tend to take on a lot of the cognitive and workload of the house. [SPEAKER_01]: And then let's just add on all that the energy and emotions, right, of everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: The responsibility for their kiddos.

27:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my heart hurts for betrayed partners period and betrayed partners that are also neurodifferent because watching like, and I will say like the courage that these partners have to go on day off, I think. [SPEAKER_01]: How are you doing this, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So it's unbelievable because you're right, just being a betrayed partner is, I don't even have to say it because people that have been listening to my podcast know exactly what it's like to be a betrayed partner, right?

27:32 [SPEAKER_02]: It is. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the standing. [SPEAKER_02]: It's traumatic. [SPEAKER_02]: It's complex. [SPEAKER_02]: It's confusing. [SPEAKER_02]: It disrupts everything. [SPEAKER_02]: And then to have this added layer and because of all the misdiagnosis and just missed. [SPEAKER_02]: diagnoses.

27:46 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking now about betrayed partners who don't have a diagnosis, but they actually are neurodifferent. [SPEAKER_02]: And then they're coming in for help as a betrayed partner. [SPEAKER_02]: And then they're not getting the treatment that they actually need. [SPEAKER_02]: And they're not being understood.

28:03 [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard enough as a betrayed partner to feel understood. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: So what should people look for what are some of these. [SPEAKER_02]: that would help someone identify that maybe there is a difference in their brain. [SPEAKER_02]: Or even a therapist, by the way.

28:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, the first thing I'm gonna say is if you have a partner that's autistic ADHD like does a track like, okay? [SPEAKER_01]: So when I see of this person as that I'm looking at the partner to look for traits, [SPEAKER_01]: And it can be very subtle because for those of us that get adult diagnosed, we have learned to mask and, you know, people that are born as like female identify right, born female, absolutely, are it could be experts in masking, but there are certain things that all here like really sensory sensitive like tactile defensive.

28:56 [SPEAKER_01]: will take things literally when I'm talking, you know, and I'm just going to tell everyone listening that it's not one thing. [SPEAKER_01]: You can be sensory sensitive, but if you don't take things that are very sensitive, very emotionally sensitive, curfew melts, highly intuitive, [SPEAKER_01]: And when we look at children that are autistic, especially kiddos are actually really attuned and really intuitive.

29:20 [SPEAKER_01]: But what happens is all the sensory noise, everyone's emotions get in question when kiddos will just say what it is that they see or feel and being told no, that's not or don't be rude or what then they start to question it so that the intuition goes out the window. [SPEAKER_01]: But with the autistic female, I'll see that a lot, um, hyper focus, they can rabbit hole, you know, just struggling, but then like super power caregivers on the one hand.

29:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to say this is everyone because they can be super hero caregivers. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like to say super power. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's just cliche. [SPEAKER_01]: But just super duper. [SPEAKER_01]: I can do this all day. [SPEAKER_01]: But then there's this heavy like burnout, right?

30:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of hyper focus I'll see. [SPEAKER_01]: And then really, really vulnerable to victimization. [SPEAKER_01]: I will have autistic betrayed partners that sometimes they'll bypass what their partners done. [SPEAKER_01]: So we have to also work on that. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I don't want to disclosure.

30:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to know, I'm okay. [SPEAKER_01]: I am maybe I would be okay if yes. [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of like bypassing what's been done like the harm that's been done a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not saying, you know, not autistic people do this. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just kind of sharing what I've noticed.

30:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And already I think walking in with self-doubt, lot of just questioning self-esteem. [SPEAKER_01]: Typically we know this autistic females, a history of being victimized, a history of being bullied, a history of sexual assault or harassment, a history of being in relationships that are abusive.

30:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say those are kind of off the top. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: I know it's not an easy answer. [SPEAKER_02]: And like you said, it doesn't mean that because you have this and you don't have that, that there's, yeah, it's kind of complicated in that way. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because a diagnosis really we're looking at a series of traits were on a continuum more than a spectrum because I might struggle with eye contact than the next autistic person sitting by me right, but then I might really struggle with like.

31:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Spatial cues and be like standing too close and the other person might need a lot of distance to any of their things right, but we're on a continuum and they're definitely our traits that we all fit in and by the time we're adults there's so many more traits and the diagnostic manual so many more traits the diagnostic manual is really geared towards boys like white autistic boys.

31:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It really misses the boat in terms of looking at female and non-binary individuals. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just give a shout out. [SPEAKER_01]: Alley Dearborn who's also a clinician and seesat she and I created a screening tool and autistic screening tool that we use for anyone and it's also sensitive to if you're female and if you're non-binary because we're looking at different things like eating disorder behavior, you know, body dysmorphia and I get that yes males can have that as well but there are certain things that [SPEAKER_01]: that we're also listening for that just aren't asked and are not, they're not in the diagnostic manual.

32:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that a self screening tool or is that something like that? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, where would someone find that? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had it on our website for a while then we edited it. [SPEAKER_01]: People couldn't just email me and if you post the email, I also had it at the very bottom.

32:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I think a link to it, but I tell people just email me. [SPEAKER_01]: I can add it to my email too to kind of just remind people that we have that. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, clinicians can use it and folks that are curious can use it. [SPEAKER_01]: Another website I'll say that does screening that's incredible is embrace autism.com and it's embrace underscore autism.

33:01 [SPEAKER_01]: They have all the like self administered tests. [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why I say that's important is because actually at a Harvard psychologist asked me this last year. [SPEAKER_01]: He was like, can I just ask you something about screening? [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, we have a clinic here and we're so full that by the time I screen someone they've literally done all the self assessments.

33:21 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about that? [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, here's the thing. [SPEAKER_01]: By the time an autistic person walks in the room with you, they are the expert, absolutely of their own experience. [SPEAKER_02]: So when I heard that's what your experience was, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Or was.

33:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I hear of these neuropsychologists are like, no, too many people are being diagnosed by the way, that's unethical. [SPEAKER_00]: You can't not diagnose someone because too many people are diagnosed. [SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, when I read the reports of these psychologists that are trying to argue why the person isn't and in doing so they actually argue why they are, you know, it's like we know like by the time an autistic person if they're coming in and saying I know I'm autistic, I need this to validate it, but I already know.

34:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Trust us because people really do know. [SPEAKER_01]: They really do know. [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, it is harder to identify in adults with complex trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: It's harder to identify females often because we mask. [SPEAKER_02]: And people really need to be open to that. [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to circle back, I know I'm kind of going back and forth between the trade partner and the betrayer and all the different things, but something that earlier was you really explained how pornography could be one of those acting out behaviors that an autistic person can seek and you also mentioned transactional sex.

34:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you see in this population affairs and relational relationships, right, as well, or is that not something you're going to see so much in the disclosure of somebody who identifies as autistic? [SPEAKER_01]: They do, I do see that. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought about that, too. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, where does infidelity come in?

34:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Where it's not necessarily this compulsive, but it's a long term relationship, yes. [SPEAKER_01]: I do see that. [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't seen that a lot by any means. [SPEAKER_01]: I do see more of the transactional online or I pay you. [SPEAKER_01]: You do this for me. [SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty straightforward.

35:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to be emotional. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to communicate, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But if you think about an affair, [SPEAKER_01]: It's different than living day to day with someone. [SPEAKER_01]: The quote demand, remember we talked about that, the persistent demand that autistic folks can have, it's different.

35:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's just a difference. [SPEAKER_01]: It's still a transaction just in a different way. [SPEAKER_01]: You get to share how much you share. [SPEAKER_01]: It still is a fantasy and I will say and I wrote about this in the chapter on what we're talking about, you know, out of control sexual behavior.

35:45 [SPEAKER_01]: maladaptive limmerance is often part of that. [SPEAKER_01]: So maladaptive limmerance is the person becomes their special interest. [SPEAKER_01]: And it is a fantasy. [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times it is not based on reality, it is delusional, and that creates a whole other set of kind of confusion for the partner.

36:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what did you see in this person? [SPEAKER_00]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: But I literally don't see that in this person. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are you talking about? [SPEAKER_01]: And then a lot right so that's more of what I see if there's this affair right where they're kind of put on a pedestal and they're and we can also look at it as this is for clinicians but also partners you know wondering there can be trauma repetition in it so it's like [SPEAKER_01]: mom who was emotionally unavailable might look like a fair partner.

36:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And so then there's this maladaptive lemurance in fantasy about this person. [SPEAKER_01]: They create all this big story around it. [SPEAKER_01]: Then they're getting their sexual needs met. [SPEAKER_01]: But again, it's through this fantasy. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not reality. [SPEAKER_01]: It's this escape from the reality that feels very demanding and right is too much everything is too much for me I can't so I go over here and I live this fantasy out still traumatic completely but that were of what I see if there's like enough fear happening.

37:05 [SPEAKER_02]: That's helpful. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: I want to be mindful of time, but I have still, there's two things in my mind as we're talking. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I will say that I have so many more questions and things I want to talk about. [SPEAKER_02]: The good news is that we've got the book.

37:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And for anybody who's listening who's interested, we will of course put the information about the book and the show notes as well as Candace's email and then the embrace autism website. [SPEAKER_02]: So two questions. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to miss though. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: One of them, and I think this one is really important.

37:33 [SPEAKER_02]: It's about empathy. [SPEAKER_02]: So there's an empathy gap, I think, in general, it doesn't matter if we're talking about somebody who's newer different, or if it's a typical person tripper. [SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes a neurodifferent individual from my understanding will be accused of lacking empathy.

37:52 [SPEAKER_02]: When they're actually experiencing trouble identifying their emotions, which might come with their diagnosis, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So how can couples tell the difference between a lack of care and a neurodiffference and how empathy is expressed? [SPEAKER_01]: So not be able to show empathy in the way that the partner wants can feel like a lack of care.

38:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, if we're looking at is the autism as it's something else. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to go off of a series of traits, but I'll just say in the book. [SPEAKER_01]: I have a whole section on empathy. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's why. [SPEAKER_01]: double empathy problem, right?

38:28 [SPEAKER_01]: There's research about it showing that you put two autistic people together and they totally understand each other and they can see it. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not a matter of my autistic partner doesn't have empathy. [SPEAKER_01]: If they don't, we're looking at something else. [SPEAKER_01]: I really want people to hear that, okay?

38:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Four types of empathy that are out in the world. [SPEAKER_01]: The first one is what everyone says is empathy and even betrayed partner. [SPEAKER_01]: They don't see my point of view. [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have empathy. [SPEAKER_01]: But there's three more passionate empathy or effective empathy, which is, I feel your emotion so strongly, but I don't know what to do.

39:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it mine? [SPEAKER_01]: Am I feeling mine? [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, they're crying. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I want to cry. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but is that me? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it them? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what to do, so I freeze. [SPEAKER_01]: And then betray partner goes you're so heartless why are you just staring at me, do something, right?

39:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Sematic empathy, super strong, somatic connectors, right? [SPEAKER_01]: High-percentative, really, truly, similar. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel physically what you're feeling. [SPEAKER_01]: So I describe that I'm going to cry. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, again, I feel the emotion of sadness or anxiety.

39:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm physically feeling it in my body, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know what to do with it. [SPEAKER_01]: That's really the problem. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a gap right there. [SPEAKER_01]: and then response of empathy, which like I'm a response of empathy, how can I help? [SPEAKER_01]: How can I help?

39:44 [SPEAKER_01]: What can I do? [SPEAKER_01]: And some partners do that. [SPEAKER_01]: And then their portrayed partner will say, I don't want you to do anything. [SPEAKER_01]: I just want you to fill with me, right? [SPEAKER_01]: For someone who they know how to, I know how to though. [SPEAKER_01]: I know how to help you, right?

39:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so that's the fourth one. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what it's about. [SPEAKER_01]: Can each of you, I literally talk about this. [SPEAKER_01]: I am [SPEAKER_01]: Can you go through the list and figure out which ones do you respond to best? [SPEAKER_01]: How do you express empathy? [SPEAKER_01]: If you know that your partner needs you to have, I see your perspective.

40:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you learn the script? [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say, be okay with scripts. [SPEAKER_01]: Scripts help someone. [SPEAKER_02]: That's a hard one. [SPEAKER_02]: And I know I all talked to some betrayers who will say I did what you told me to do. [SPEAKER_02]: I did what you suggested. [SPEAKER_02]: And my partners like you're just repeating what morning has told you or what you've learned in that group.

40:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the betrayer actually feels hopeless like I'm trying. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing everything I can. [SPEAKER_02]: So I often will tell the betrayed partner. [SPEAKER_02]: I understand that that script might feel very disingenuous and very frustrating. [SPEAKER_02]: But give some grace as they're doing their best if they're doing their best.

40:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But if this is about neuro type, especially scripts help us. [SPEAKER_01]: This is a joke I use all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: Chris used to say, I love it when someone makes me a cup of coffee. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be like, oh, awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: Love you. [SPEAKER_01]: Have a good day. [SPEAKER_01]: Finally, he goes, I want you to make me a cup of coffee.

41:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's my language, direct. [SPEAKER_01]: He was being nuanced. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't speak that language. [SPEAKER_01]: It's literally foreign to me. [SPEAKER_01]: So I now know that script. [SPEAKER_01]: I get up in the morning, I go, I know he'd want coffee. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna make him coffee.

41:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: That's so beautiful. [SPEAKER_01]: I know the script. [SPEAKER_01]: I know the script. [SPEAKER_01]: which is really framed for me. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a weeping in a coupleship. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're choosing to be in this relationship, it's not you, me. [SPEAKER_01]: We can put the fear all day long, but we are the ones in this together.

41:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So can we learn how each other's brains work? [SPEAKER_01]: How are bodies respond? [SPEAKER_01]: How we actually communicate? [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of autistic people aren't the best at communicating verbally. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm blown out of the water that I'm articulating as well as I am.

41:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and maybe that's imposter syndrome or whatever right, but I will say I can do this here because this is just this is also like what I do all day it's very predictable, but if Chris and I get an argument, I and the texture queen. [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot, I will stutter, I will cry, stutter, free, I can't verbalize it, but I can text and process through texting.

42:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, how do our bodies communicate? [SPEAKER_01]: How are our brains working? [SPEAKER_01]: And what's going on internally? [SPEAKER_01]: That's really what this is about. [SPEAKER_01]: speaking our language together. [SPEAKER_01]: I have a whole section on the seven types of neurocommunicators.

42:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Someone we're over on monologue. [SPEAKER_01]: Me, summer pass of listeners, Chris, summer rejecters. [SPEAKER_01]: Me, if I'm scared, I'll just say an automatic no. [SPEAKER_01]: No, if I don't have the data. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: And all that is is our nervous systems are just on [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

42:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you can't co-create a relationship if you don't know how to speak each other's language. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was thinking, I really go, when you said Candace that it was freeing for you to get the script and to be like, oh, I know he likes cup coffee. [SPEAKER_02]: That helps him feel a little cared for.

43:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I imagine it was also freeing for him to know that he had right. [SPEAKER_02]: He had actually successfully expressed to you, communicated to you what you could do to help [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, read him for both of us. [SPEAKER_01]: I talk about in the beginning my story, how he and I met and then I talk about our story continued right and kind of throughout and like I said weaving in kind of some clinical examples I've mixed and matched if anybody that's listening is like that's my story I promise I have literally mixed a matched stories because I'm trying to keep a confidence but I work with a hundred percent of this population and so when people will read the stories I'll say holy cow it's like she's

43:57 [SPEAKER_01]: telling my story, I hate partner this right here, right? [SPEAKER_01]: That even can create understanding. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the book, the book, like all right, like, you know, that this couple that she talks about, oh, oh, really, that's okay. [SPEAKER_01]: You've never communicated it that way, but that's what I experienced.

44:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think everyone should read this book. [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that so much. [SPEAKER_01]: I do want to add that have a couple of sections that there's we have multiple identities that's chapter three for betrayed partners where let's say you're with a male partner [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the chapter on intimate partner violence, the chapter on sex, like let's just redefine sex on your terms and what is a rousal mean.

44:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at the mess. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at the neuro norms around sex. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not ready for some of these chapters, I literally say in the beginning, skip it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right, chapter three, I suggest it like you guys think you don't identify but keep going but I want to be trade partners to hear skip that one to if you need to and really take it at your own pace because I don't think anyone's written about autism and out of control sexual behavior in a book.

45:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I know there's research. [SPEAKER_01]: I cite the one research study, but there's not a lot and there's definitely I have not been able to find anything about autistic people committing into my partner violence. [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard about the victimization. [SPEAKER_01]: So they're kind of groundbreaking chapters, but I will say they were really hard excruciating at times for me to write.

45:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Because they're heavy. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a painful topic. [SPEAKER_01]: So for those listening, please, just like pace. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like, again, without adding this additional complexity, this is all so painful. [SPEAKER_02]: And I tell my clients that are in certain groups or programs, I would say the same thing, go at your own pace.

45:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And I tell people even sometimes, but the podcast, I'll give a disclaimer, like, you might not want to listen to this. [SPEAKER_02]: right and that's okay there's nothing wrong with you actually that's really great that you're listening to your intuition and making a decision about what is best for you right now it doesn't have to be forever right but for now let me ask one last question.

46:15 [SPEAKER_02]: So for the person who feels like a failure in recovery, who's been in, let's say, a traditional therapy or the 12-step world or traditional groups, or whatever it is, because their brain works differently, what is the first step for that person toward shifting into a recovery that actually feels like the right place for them?

46:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It's such a good question. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say that there's so much out there nowadays. [SPEAKER_01]: If you are a neurodifferent and you're curious and you're listening, I have a whole other podcast, Fabulously Candace, it's on the website. [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people listen to that.

46:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Find other things if you're able to to listen to anything about autism, my book, Devon Prices Books on Unmasking Autism. [SPEAKER_01]: seek out supports. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know social media can be hard for folks and recovery because you're not supposed to be on it. [SPEAKER_01]: People can reach out to me.

47:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I often will do a consultation call where people will just ask me questions and get validation. [SPEAKER_01]: People can come do intensive with us. [SPEAKER_01]: They can work with their providers. [SPEAKER_01]: They can stay and then come to us for five days. [SPEAKER_01]: Go back [SPEAKER_01]: find groups.

47:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Chris and I will be starting a 12 week master class on the book is the roadmap for couples starting May 19 come to a class. [SPEAKER_01]: You could work with you can do your essay, but it takes a team approach for autistic folks in recovery. [SPEAKER_01]: It is not one therapist. [SPEAKER_01]: And people often don't understand why that is.

47:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you could have a C-Sat that you work with, and then you could have an autism specialist too. [SPEAKER_01]: We work on different things, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Then you could have a couple of therapists, and then you might have an executive function coach, because you just need that too.

48:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'm the therapist that's brought in as a consultant to talk about autism insects, or maybe they'd crossed into escalated addictions, or even offending. [SPEAKER_01]: I oftentimes have brought in there. [SPEAKER_01]: Then they have a psychiatrist doing the meds. [SPEAKER_01]: They've got their C-Sat.

48:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a seasat, but I'm not working in that capacity. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the autism consultant, right? [SPEAKER_01]: There's a team approach that really works well with our systems so that the autistic person goes, I feel so seen. [SPEAKER_01]: Can you help my therapist? [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.

48:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I've done that before. [SPEAKER_01]: Consult the therapist. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the language, hey, I've got a book now. [SPEAKER_01]: You can keep working with them. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's some tips and tools. [SPEAKER_01]: Great, oh my gosh, thank you so much, says the therapist. [SPEAKER_01]: Because a lot of therapists are, I mean, every therapist I've worked with has been well-intended.

48:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the realities we're trained with compassion, we're trained, we just people get scared of what they don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes with autism we make it harder than it is. [SPEAKER_01]: an autistic system is a highly sensitive system. [SPEAKER_01]: It's very similar to what we would do with a traumatized system.

49:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Slower, let's dim the lights. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you need a way to blanket your some water? [SPEAKER_01]: You know, let's pause. [SPEAKER_01]: How's your body feeling? [SPEAKER_01]: What do you need? [SPEAKER_01]: Are you warming up? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, it sounds just like working with trauma.

49:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, very similar. [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, I have a [SPEAKER_02]: a new founder appreciation for working with this population and just for the nuances and, you know, the complexity, I use that word complexity so much, but I feel like every time I talk about another aspect of the trail trauma, it really does become more and more and more complex.

49:37 [SPEAKER_02]: I am most grateful, Candice, that I feel like I'm walking away feeling like I have a lot more clarity and a lot more hope. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm hoping that the listeners that are hearing this today also, if this is something that resonates for them, whether they're just hearing something now, that's like wait a second, maybe there's some connection, like I think that I resonate here, or if you're already in this world and you've been navigating it, I just hear so much hope in it, [SPEAKER_02]: and your marriage.

50:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's going to be very, very helpful to a lot of people. [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very, very grateful that you took the time to come on. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Any last thing you'd want to say to people that are listening, like if you can say one final thought, what would it be?

50:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Now my gosh, every single human on this planet is worthy of love and connection and healthy intimacy and if you choose healthy sex, including autistic and ADHD people. [SPEAKER_01]: And for those of you that are healing from betrayal trauma that have a partner that was just diagnosed or has been diagnosed, I want you also to know that you also are worthy of healing.

50:43 [SPEAKER_01]: and that you can heal together if both of you want that you're all so deserving of that and that's so important and we have a ton of resources. [SPEAKER_01]: So people can reach out to me. [SPEAKER_01]: You can email me. [SPEAKER_01]: I do my best to respond as quickly as I can website.

50:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got the book now. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank goodness. [SPEAKER_01]: There is hope. [SPEAKER_01]: There is hope. [SPEAKER_01]: There is hope and every human is worthy of love. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much, Candace. [SPEAKER_02]: So much. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks everyone for being here.

51:12 [SPEAKER_02]: We will see you again really soon. [SPEAKER_00]: Take care. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

51:37 [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

51:56 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.