105. Women Healing Together

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcast was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:10 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, everyone. [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: This is Marty and I feel like I always say this But I have some guests today that I'm really excited about so I'm just going to dive in and Introduce who's here today.

1:37 [SPEAKER_03]: So first of all, I have Maddie Corman who you guys I'm sure all know by now say hi Maddie [SPEAKER_01]: I do believe you. [SPEAKER_01]: I can see it. [SPEAKER_01]: You guys can't see her face, but you're genuinely excited to have this group on and I'm happy to be here as part of that. [SPEAKER_03]: I am before I introduce you guys, I'm just going to give a very brief sort of context for our conversation today.

1:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Some of you might know that Maddie and I about a year and a half ago started to do retreats together. [SPEAKER_03]: So far, just for women betrayed partners. [SPEAKER_03]: We've done three to date. [SPEAKER_03]: and we love doing these retreats. [SPEAKER_03]: We were just talking a little while ago about how while Zoom is really effective and thank God we have it now, and at the end of the day, there's nothing quite like being together in the same room in person.

2:22 [SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, we love doing retreats and we did one last October. [SPEAKER_03]: And it was called Empowered at Sea and we had eight amazing beautiful women come on that ship with us. [SPEAKER_03]: And we have two of those women here today to talk because Maddie and I could share, you know, from our perspective as the facilitators, what the retreat was like and how fabulous the women were and what was gained.

2:45 [SPEAKER_03]: But at the end of the day, it [SPEAKER_03]: is so much more helpful and people can actually hear directly from people about their own experiences. [SPEAKER_03]: So I am thrilled to introduce you today to Amy and Shana. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for being here. [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for having us.

3:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, maybe we can just start with asking each of you just to share like why did you decide to come onto the empowered head seat crews? [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't start. [SPEAKER_05]: I've done a [SPEAKER_05]: I've done other ones with you. [SPEAKER_05]: I did another retreat with you prior to the cruise.

3:20 [SPEAKER_05]: And also a workshop after the cruise, I've done intensives. [SPEAKER_05]: I've done all of them. [SPEAKER_05]: But what was really unique about this opportunity is I love to go on curses. [SPEAKER_05]: Anyways, that was already a love of mine. [SPEAKER_05]: There's something about being surrounded by water that feels healing to me.

3:38 [SPEAKER_05]: And I also saw it as an opportunity to do something I don't generally do. [SPEAKER_05]: and that's to prioritize myself and to prioritize my healing. [SPEAKER_05]: And I felt like stepping away from all of the responsibilities of day-to-day life that you even think about when you're doing like a weekend retreat.

3:57 [SPEAKER_05]: You're still worrying about things at home, worrying about the, you know, what's for dinner tomorrow. [SPEAKER_05]: Like all of the things that we think about every day, I just decided to take advantage of an opportunity [SPEAKER_05]: and to give myself space to heal in a different way.

4:15 [SPEAKER_05]: And so that was my thought going into it. [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Shana, what about you? [SPEAKER_02]: So for me, betrayal has been a part of my marriage for it'll be 28 years of marriage this summer and I've been a wife along with three kids. [SPEAKER_02]: And if you think 28 years ago, what there was even for resources to get support, it was not very well known.

4:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And I sense that I have done, I hope, need support groups for women. [SPEAKER_02]: And I haven't really done one where I go and just take care of myself. [SPEAKER_02]: For me, I didn't want a weekend away. [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to have fun, fun is important to me. [SPEAKER_02]: And not having to worry about the details as good for me.

4:57 [SPEAKER_02]: So go on a cruise and October was something that I might, oh, that's going to be hard. [SPEAKER_02]: I worked in the schools, I have to eat there. [SPEAKER_02]: October get it away, no way, that's going to be hard. [SPEAKER_02]: But so I've done one other cruise in my life to last there.

5:12 [SPEAKER_02]: So doing a cruise, [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't done a lot but it sounds good. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know anyone that's going on this and I'm okay with that sure all room with somebody. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that's right. [SPEAKER_02]: You had a roommate. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this sounds like a fun adventure and let's do it and you didn't know any of the other women coming into that.

5:30 [SPEAKER_02]: No, not at all. [SPEAKER_02]: I hadn't met anyone until the airport right before going. [SPEAKER_02]: I just happened to run into someone's. [SPEAKER_02]: That was it. [SPEAKER_02]: Talk about brave. [SPEAKER_02]: So brave. [SPEAKER_02]: And we familiar with Maddie and I. Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So for Marty and Maddie, I need I love listening to their podcast morning.

5:47 [SPEAKER_02]: Many years to start exploring podcast being fairly new and Marty, your podcast was one of my favorites to listen to. [UNKNOWN]: And [SPEAKER_02]: I've always had a way of bringing it back around to you. [SPEAKER_02]: You want couples to stay together and you're not bashing the man as horrible human beings.

6:03 [SPEAKER_02]: It's of how healing and walking us through that process and every single episode of your dog marks at all. [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much in that that I can take and share with others but really help in my own healing process. [SPEAKER_02]: And so that was the main introduction that I had had to you and with Maddie with one of my groups we have [SPEAKER_02]: And that was really the introduction that I'd had in the 90s, of course, I fight everything else to all of her past movie experience.

6:29 [SPEAKER_02]: But that was about, yeah, I was like, wow, this is cool that someone who's as cool as Maddie would come and join us in just ordinary people on a cruise. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that was the first disappointment was. [SPEAKER_01]: discovering how not crews were the Matty. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so good to see both of you guys.

6:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We did get really close as a group and not that I am cool, but I had never been on a cruise before Marnie had to kind of drag me on kicking and screaming because [SPEAKER_01]: I had said, here's what I'm interested in when Marne and I met and really had such similar world views and views on how we wanted to help especially betrayed partners and we care very much and we like to be a little bit silly sometimes so we're both people who hold really serious trauma and delight in different hands sometimes even in the same hand.

7:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was really interested in bringing women together in person because I know how lonely as those of you that don't know I am a betrayed partner. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just the only a season of my life by far. [SPEAKER_01]: There was nothing to even compare it to. [SPEAKER_01]: And I am a person who likes to be around people, but I couldn't be around people during this time who didn't get it.

7:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It just felt lower being with people than being alone. [SPEAKER_01]: So the thought of the couple of times that I had gotten to spend time in person with other betrayed partners had been so healing [SPEAKER_01]: Retreat or intensive we wanted to add some element of [SPEAKER_01]: delight if possible and still leave room for all the grief work, all the bonding, all the talk about recovery because both are important.

8:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And Marnie was like, a cruise is a great place for all that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I had, I'm not gonna lie. [SPEAKER_01]: I had a misconceptions about cruises. [SPEAKER_01]: For me, before during and after, well, there is no after. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still a betrayed partner, but a little farther along in my [SPEAKER_01]: I really need some alone time.

8:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just really important to me and I didn't understand that a cruise. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd only seen pictures and I was like, everybody's always on a conical line. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how will I really explain the spiritual side of being on the water and I didn't believe her until I was there and it's so healing and we really incorporated that into her breath work, our meditation work.

9:04 [SPEAKER_01]: our group work. [SPEAKER_01]: We really did use the imagery of the ocean. [SPEAKER_01]: One other thing I just want to add before we go back to our wonderful ladies. [SPEAKER_01]: Marny you said there's nothing like being in person which I agree because of the bonding because of so many things and one thing I wanted to add about that is [SPEAKER_01]: I would go do my therapy or even my group when I was relatively new in recovery and then I had to go back home, had to go back home and be a mom and I was in really severe betrayal trauma.

9:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I had to go be a wife to someone I was furious with and scared to love and to have a few days where I could just feel whatever I wanted to feel and not have to then put on whatever [SPEAKER_01]: to go to be a parent, to go to be a spouse or a daughter or a sister. [SPEAKER_01]: It was just such a relief to me to have those couple of times where I could just be myself.

10:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like that's exactly what we wanted to provide on this retreat, right, like a safe space where you don't have to, you can fall apart and you don't have to pull yourself back together like you said to go home and be a mom, right, or be a teacher. [SPEAKER_01]: and somebody else is dealing with food.

10:26 [SPEAKER_01]: That seems like a small thing, but it was really huge for me as a female human. [SPEAKER_01]: to go, I can eat when I want to eat. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not responsible. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to worry about anybody else. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's lots of options. [SPEAKER_01]: It may sound small, but for me, that was something that was so exhausting every day.

10:46 [SPEAKER_01]: On top of all the recovery work I was having to do just to get through the day. [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes just the thought of what I was going to eat and or feed my family for dinner could just put me down on the ground. [SPEAKER_03]: is really hard to balance when you're dealing with betrayal or any kind of trauma.

11:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Amy was talking before we came on about her dog and it's like, Amy, I won't go into the details, but you were saying how everything can be okay and then it's the dog or it's the something, it's life, life thing that when you are also dealing with betrayal and recovery, that can be the thing.

11:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully, [SPEAKER_01]: for the week that we're doing these retreats, those things are being dealt with by somebody else. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's why we like doing these retreats for multiple days as opposed to just a weekend, because we also know that it can sometimes take a day or two to just land and drop in and get present.

11:46 [SPEAKER_03]: But I want to turn it back over to Shana and Amy to share about, first of all, let's start with that first day when you guys walked into that room. [SPEAKER_03]: where we were all waiting, where you're welcome bags for sitting on the counter and, you know, Shawnee, well, you knew at this point now you had met your roommate, right, because you had already.

12:04 [SPEAKER_03]: And Amy, you came with another friend from recovery, so you knew somebody. [SPEAKER_03]: But walking into that room together, all of you together and seeing us and all of the women, what was that like for you on day one? [SPEAKER_05]: For me, when I thought like I was carrying this heavy weight on my shoulder of loneliness, like this is such a lonely place.

12:27 [SPEAKER_05]: It's so isolating. [SPEAKER_05]: And I feel like at least in our story, you know, we didn't share what was happening. [SPEAKER_05]: I held this all myself. [SPEAKER_05]: And it wasn't until I got into a women's group where I met my friend that came with me on a cruise that I really started to feel like I [SPEAKER_05]: or people that we're going to at least not just give me words of the affirmation and like the people that know me and love me that would be like you're going to be okay, you're going to be fine.

12:59 [SPEAKER_05]: No, I finally had women that were like we get it. [SPEAKER_05]: And [SPEAKER_05]: I know how horrible it is, so I finally had down that, but it was always confined to kind of like what Natalie was saying in this little box of time. [SPEAKER_05]: And so if you have women's group once a week for an hour and a half, that's really hard to share space so that everybody has an opportunity to share and cross us things and by the time you're really starting to feel like you're ready to start sharing more it's time to go.

13:31 [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think that there was always kind of something that held me back from really sharing the way that I would have if there was an opportunity to have more time and space to do it. [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think walking into that room was the first time I felt like I'm going to really have this space.

13:50 [SPEAKER_05]: to share and also connect with all of these people who, assuming that at that point, understood my journey also. [SPEAKER_05]: Our stories were all very different, but we all had criminality and what lot is there. [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think for me, walking in, of course, there is anxiety because you're like, you know, or be telling our stories, how much of our stories are retelling, or people going to judge me, or it's my story going to be the worst, like all of those fears that you go into it with.

14:23 [SPEAKER_05]: I definitely had those and I think those first moments were a little uneasy. [SPEAKER_05]: I was lucky enough that I knew you and Maddie from the previous retreat that I've been on so I felt that connection so that was comforting for me and I have my roommate who I knew so I feel like I came in kind of with you know an edge of I just had more anxiety about.

14:46 [SPEAKER_05]: what was this going to look like? [SPEAKER_05]: And also just being excited that I was going to have the space to finally be able to share and talk about things that I hadn't ever talked about before, ever. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for me, when I walked in the room, like, all right, there's a circle of chairs.

15:02 [SPEAKER_02]: It looks like there's about eight to ten chairs, there's bags, you may probably want for each person, okay, start counting the bag, okay, there's that little psych, yeah, about a small group here, there's blanket, why can't we blanket for what does everyone have one? [SPEAKER_02]: And then I started think, okay, well, I met my [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I've listened to the podcast and never met Maddie or Marty in person.

15:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Alrighty, let's do this. [SPEAKER_02]: They don't be fine. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, I hear the little apprehensive at first, but so glad that we had the blankets. [SPEAKER_02]: And so glad that we had that room that was consistent for us. [SPEAKER_02]: That was our coming together room on the cruise.

15:47 [SPEAKER_02]: The trip had so many different spots, but that was always the same place where we came together. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, Linda things, [SPEAKER_02]: like we needed to it just very welcoming and and then we started rolling. [SPEAKER_03]: And I just have to say, Sean, I was sort of like the life of the party.

16:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I need to just make that statement. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, everybody was fun and wonderful. [SPEAKER_03]: Sean, I brought some big, really unique and fun to the space. [SPEAKER_03]: I think we can all agree. [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: Just wanted to hand out if you, I wanted to hand out tissues when people did, but that was a beauty of, I mean, what part of what we did was, and you said from the gate, okay, it's not very responsibility to help anyone else, and I'm like, oh yeah, I know that no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no

16:43 [SPEAKER_05]: and knowing exactly what they're stealing and knowing exactly what they're going through. [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes even feeling it for them because it's exactly what you know you went through and to not be able to like go get people hugs or hand them to shoes was so hard. [SPEAKER_05]: That was really hard.

17:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we didn't say you can't hug or I think welcome as long as the other person's cool, but no handing tissues. [SPEAKER_03]: Wow. [SPEAKER_03]: I met in the middle of them talking. [SPEAKER_03]: I wasn't a little of them talking, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Of course. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So for anybody who knows me or has been in a group with me, you know that I encourage no handing anyone tissues.

17:20 [SPEAKER_03]: unless the person asks for them. [SPEAKER_03]: If somebody asks, then of course, but the reason for that is that when somebody is especially in this kind of a setting, right, like what you're describing, you're in this very like sacred space with other people and you're sharing things that oftentimes you've never shared before.

17:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're crying, sometimes that feels good. [SPEAKER_03]: and someone handing you a tissue even with the most beautiful intention behind it can be like you're making us uncomfortable or no no it's okay it's okay stop or stop crying right again it's not the intention but that can shut somebody down or it can make somebody feel like I'm too much I've also heard many women say I want to cry this feels good it feels good to get this out I haven't been able to do this before and I just want to ugly cry [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, I just wanted to put that comment that you made into some kind of a context of people like I don't want to go on a cruise with these people who don't let let us have tissues.

18:20 [SPEAKER_03]: So let's come back and talk about what did you get from the cruise what were some of the highlights for you. [SPEAKER_02]: me what I got from this was that community of women. [SPEAKER_02]: We had bonded in a way. [SPEAKER_02]: We had a week together of coming and talking about hard things, but also time where we were able to have right time.

18:41 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like it's been beautiful since then. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Marty, you madly let it for us, but you created a group where now we're all coming around each other and supporting each other, whatever we're faced with something hard. [SPEAKER_02]: The beauty of it, it's not always, oh, Amy's always got a problem and the rest of us are having to come around just Amy.

19:00 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's been every one of us that have reached out and said, hey, I've got something going on and just feeling [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, we've bonded. [SPEAKER_02]: We know what's going on to where we can come alongside and support. [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, the foundation of the group, we have the good things set up as far as how even respond.

19:20 [SPEAKER_02]: And so what I hear you saying, yeah, it's the way that we would say things we call [SPEAKER_02]: to read it back to them how we heard it versus giving advice. [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a good foundation. [SPEAKER_02]: And then as we get together on the call discipline, reaching out for help, everyone has something to contribute.

19:38 [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone just, I don't know how to help them power it. [SPEAKER_02]: Empowerment and see, it came back to just, yeah, we can do this together. [SPEAKER_02]: It truly was an empowerment of, we now have a society of women around us kind of, but just are there for each other? [SPEAKER_02]: That's so beautiful.

19:57 [SPEAKER_03]: so happy because that's what it is about. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, yes, we want to have this experience together for the week, but the idea is that at last long after you come back from the cruise. [SPEAKER_01]: Unity, a sisterhood is formed and you guys are, I mean, we've had, we've only done it a couple of times.

20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: We've only done the cruise one time, but the people who are supposed to be there end up being there and it's unlikely fellows sometimes. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we had women [SPEAKER_01]: Different ages, different demographics from all shape sizes from all over the country, very different acting out behavior from your partners, different stages in life, people have young children, no children.

20:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that all was important for you guys to be seen, but I watched [SPEAKER_01]: friendships and a sisterhood forum regardless of oh our husbands had the same acting out behavior. [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't about that. [SPEAKER_01]: It was our feelings that we're sharing together. [SPEAKER_01]: So Shana, yeah, we were really hopeful that you guys would take it off of the boat and into life.

21:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And both Marnie and I have received amazing text messages, occasional photos of the women getting together sometimes in real life, but also really staying connected via text and zoom. [SPEAKER_01]: And that has last [SPEAKER_01]: many months passed. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm glad that you took that away.

21:21 [SPEAKER_01]: What about on the boat or on the land, you know, when we would dock what were some things that were important or fun or surprising, absolutely, the growth work and the trauma release, I think that that's not something that you can do in a room full of strangers. [SPEAKER_05]: And we were strangers.

21:43 [SPEAKER_05]: So we had connected enough that we all felt safe enough to do that together. [SPEAKER_05]: And that was really powerful for me and I think for everyone else, but it only worked because of the connection that we were able to make the trust that we were able to have on each other and to not.

22:01 [SPEAKER_05]: have that heavy feeling of who's going to be judging me if I cry, who's going to look at me funny if I am not able to do this part of the work. [SPEAKER_05]: But there just was no worry at all about any kind of judgment. [SPEAKER_05]: Like we were experiencing that together, we all had different responses to the work that we did, but we did it together [SPEAKER_05]: In probably one of the most vulnerable states that I have allowed myself to be in and I think that that just only intensify the connection that I had already made with these amazing women and that it's moments like that when you're like.

22:47 [SPEAKER_05]: These aren't just going to be women I met on a first. [SPEAKER_05]: These are people that I have connected with on a level that I haven't, I mean, I had best friends for decades, it's different. [SPEAKER_05]: It's a different kind of connection. [SPEAKER_05]: It's a different type of understanding.

23:04 [SPEAKER_05]: And so I think for me, that was the biggest thing that I took away from the land excursion that we all did was that was so powerful and it just couldn't have been done with just a group of strangers and just couldn't I don't believe. [SPEAKER_03]: Something that stands out to me about that excursion, I don't know if you guys remember this, but this sort of to me represents the beauty of the retreat like sobbing crying.

23:29 [SPEAKER_03]: trauma release all of this, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And then, then we left that beautiful studio and we're walking back. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you guys were there, but I remember stopping into some kind of a bakery and there was huge cookies right there. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know, we got the cookies.

23:47 [SPEAKER_03]: I do like a snake or doodle or some kind of peanut butter thing was a normal butter. [SPEAKER_03]: peanut butter, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And I just, I remember that. [SPEAKER_03]: I remember like walking back and it wasn't all heavy. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like we would go in and out like we would spend the day in that room that's sacred space, this sort of like sacred cocoon.

24:06 [SPEAKER_03]: And then we would meet, you know, a couple hours later in the dining room and have a beautiful dinner together. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's another thing like Maddie and I actually do join for that. [SPEAKER_03]: I know there's probably [SPEAKER_03]: Lots of different ways that people do retreats, but we do join for the meals and we're all together and it really does kind of keep the group very consistent, right?

24:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's not like suddenly we're gone, we drop out and then it's just you guys. [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, I was just thinking about that like how we do hold those two things at once. [SPEAKER_03]: We can get into it, we can be deep, there can be tears and pain and then some laughter and then some joy and then some cookies and dare I say there was dancing.

24:40 [SPEAKER_03]: which is another thing we can talk about, but I did want to check with Shana about that same thing. [SPEAKER_03]: What did you get Shana from the work that we did both on land and on the boat? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, one of the things that stands out to me are those dinners that we had together as a whole day to and every dinner, though, we tried to sit by somebody different because you're in a kind of a loud dining room to an extent, but not so loud, but it's easy to have a conversation with two to three people right around you, so we had the chance for that, but also it was quiet enough to where there were times where we would get a piece of matty and morning's.

25:16 [SPEAKER_02]: with them to share with the whole group and interact with us at a level. [SPEAKER_02]: We were able to ask questions and our concerns. [SPEAKER_02]: What were you on us? [SPEAKER_02]: You guys were able to address at those dinner. [SPEAKER_02]: It was very valuable for me the way we were able to interact with those dinners.

25:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, like you said, we were all definitely together at that point. [SPEAKER_02]: And then in the evening, we've had a little bit of time. [SPEAKER_02]: to do stuff together. [SPEAKER_02]: There's a group for people like, I'm too tired and need to go to the weekend. [SPEAKER_02]: And so we start off the week.

25:41 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was kind of like, okay, it's kind of weird. [SPEAKER_02]: But by the end of the week, none of us wanted to go back to our rooms. [SPEAKER_02]: That last night was my favorite night where it's like, let's go. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's go up and let's see. [SPEAKER_02]: What's on the agenda of things on the boat that are happening?

25:54 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, there's this silent disco, or there's this trivia show. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's go see what that's all about. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: can we talk about the trivia thing for a second because that's really one of the highlights of the week for me, Maddie wasn't feeling so great and you guys had all decided that that's where you know, you know, for those who haven't crews before, they're say newsletter that comes out every night and tells you all the different things that are going on in the [SPEAKER_03]: And so you guys had decided to go to this, I think it was like a game show.

26:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever, and I just kind of came in, I was going to just, you know, just kind of like see you guys and just support you and doing something fun. [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, Maddie wasn't there. [SPEAKER_03]: And all of a sudden, I was there. [SPEAKER_03]: You came later. [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.

26:37 [SPEAKER_03]: You weren't there at the beginning. [SPEAKER_03]: You had headphones on and we're suddenly going to live against, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So all of a sudden, several of us, me included, were called by the host or the MC or whoever it is of this game show. [SPEAKER_03]: And we were like, [SPEAKER_03]: Wait, what?

26:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And so apparently, Shawna, our clown of the group signed us up without telling us. [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, listen, I am a trooper. [SPEAKER_03]: So I was like, all right. [SPEAKER_03]: And so several of us got up there and participated. [SPEAKER_03]: And you guys, it was so. [SPEAKER_03]: fun and funny and the laughter and I was in the front.

27:11 [SPEAKER_03]: So I got to see, by the way, Shawna, but did not sign herself up. [SPEAKER_03]: I tried to say that. [SPEAKER_03]: My name just didn't get drawn. [SPEAKER_02]: All that we could go. [SPEAKER_02]: I just went in and we were able to put our names on a piece of paper and where we were from and put it into this hat and then they drew Brandon names out of the hat.

27:27 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I put everybody's this man. [SPEAKER_02]: I was the first look there and I was like, oh, just, you [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it was really hilarious and something that I remember really well is since I was in the front. [SPEAKER_03]: There was a whole line of people behind me, part of this game.

27:45 [SPEAKER_03]: So you guys were all sitting right in front of me in this group of chairs. [SPEAKER_03]: So I got to watch you and it was amazing for me to see you guys laughing, connecting with each other, like all of that. [SPEAKER_03]: Just the joy, the pure joy. [SPEAKER_03]: And I have like goosebumps when I'm talking about it.

28:06 [SPEAKER_03]: because I remember one of the women said to me it was actually later on either that night or another night when we were dancing or when she was dancing she started crying and she said to me I never thought that I would laugh again or I never thought I would dance again. [SPEAKER_03]: And so when I remember that hilarious game that Shana signed me up for to me it represents something so much bigger than just some random, you know, cruise game show.

28:30 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like a really significant event [SPEAKER_01]: I think that a lot of us who've been through betrayal and betrayal trauma have so much loss. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the big losses, the big impact consequence is just a it's a thief of joy, the situation. [SPEAKER_01]: And even a lot of us when we're with our partners or even our families go, even when something feels fun, it's so bitter sweet.

28:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost never just purely light. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, this is fun. [SPEAKER_01]: Can you believe you almost blew up our whole family, you know, but here was a group of people who a had a shared experience. [SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't like. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretending to be happy so that my kids will see a happy person, even though I'm miserable, or I'm pretending to be happy so our friends don't know that we're going through this.

29:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody was just showing up light because they were actually light. [SPEAKER_01]: And part of the lightness, I think, came from the heaviness of during the day, kind of grieving and then dancing, and then grieving again and then singing and being silly. [SPEAKER_01]: reclamation of spaces, including dancing with each other, dancing with ourselves, not going well until everything's worked out with my partner, I can't go dancing.

29:53 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had that experience watching you guys as well. [SPEAKER_01]: It was really amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: And just for if anyone's listening right now [SPEAKER_01]: there was and is a lot of time where you can be by yourself as well. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I said as an introverted extroverted introverted introvert depending on the day and especially for me during the early years.

30:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I really needed to have some of that and then go process. [SPEAKER_01]: And like Shauna said, one of the great things about dinner was as opposed to going to your group once a week. [SPEAKER_01]: And then having all these things happen a lot of you guys would go back and have calls with your husbands and some of them didn't always go that well or some of them went beautifully and then.

30:38 [SPEAKER_01]: you could come to dinner and we would process it together. [SPEAKER_01]: We would talk about it and share and hold space. [SPEAKER_03]: It really was, I think you guys, it really was like a perfect representation of this idea of holding grief and joy at the same time and really being able to experience both.

30:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I want people to take away from today because you're right, it's a stealer of joy. [SPEAKER_03]: It leaves so much destruction in its wake and for betrayed partners, [SPEAKER_03]: there's this fear of am I going to get myself back am I going to come back my life is now you know surrounded by all this recovery stuff it's like everything's about this and where am I in all of it right and so really giving yourself this opportunity to carve out time to just come home to you [SPEAKER_03]: to just come back.

31:26 [SPEAKER_03]: And Ali is actually joined us. [SPEAKER_03]: Another one of these amazing women who came. [SPEAKER_03]: And I was just thinking, Ali, when I looked at you, I remember seeing you dancing. [SPEAKER_03]: Like I remember you on that, I think it was the last night. [SPEAKER_03]: And for everybody who's like, what did they're dancing?

31:40 [SPEAKER_03]: Or what did they just so you know, it was actually it's called a silent disco, which is a really cool thing. [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone's wearing headphones. [SPEAKER_03]: And [SPEAKER_03]: and they're hearing their own music. [SPEAKER_03]: So you can be sort of dancing on your own, or with a group or whatever it is, and that's what we were doing.

31:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And I just remember Ali looking over in you or just you were dancing it up, like you were really, really filled with joy. [SPEAKER_03]: You were smiling and oh my God, just witnessing that. [SPEAKER_03]: That's why I do what I do, by the way, because to be able to see that, to see you kind of come back to life, it's just so extraordinary and beautiful.

32:13 [SPEAKER_03]: So while we have you here, Ali, [SPEAKER_03]: Can you maybe jump into the conversation and share with us why you came on the cruise? [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, this was not my first intensive. [SPEAKER_04]: It was actually my third intensive and I was, gosh, I was about.

32:30 [SPEAKER_04]: 14, 15 months in to my betrayal journey. [SPEAKER_04]: It was also not my first go around with Marnie and Maddie. [SPEAKER_04]: I had had that great experience in Temecula and I had a great friendship with another woman who was able to go on the cruise with me and we thought, gosh, why not?

32:50 [SPEAKER_04]: What a fun thing to do and I'll tell you out of all three of my [SPEAKER_04]: such a special healing experience. [SPEAKER_04]: And I really do think it is because it was such a wonderful balance of grieving, shared experience, joy. [SPEAKER_04]: conversation, silence, and you also had so much time to just go and be alone if you wanted that too.

33:25 [SPEAKER_04]: And that combination was really just magical. [SPEAKER_04]: I felt seen, held, heard in a way that was unmatched in the rest of my recovery. [SPEAKER_02]: That's so beautiful. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just so beautiful. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's what it's about at the end of the day, you know, I was asking Shawna and Amy both what it was like to like walk into the room that first day and sort of be with all these people now.

33:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, you did know Maddie and I say you had that and you knew Amy. [SPEAKER_03]: So you had that leg up in that way. [SPEAKER_03]: But what was that like for you to come into that space? [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's always nerve wracking, right, because you just don't know like, I think every betrayed partner wants to be loved and accepted, and you never know what you're walking into and how people wear their own economy, how they're feeling in their journey.

34:16 [SPEAKER_04]: And yet I think it is this weird, [SPEAKER_04]: thing that no one wants to be in this club, but once you're in, you're kind of in. [SPEAKER_04]: And like, you get embraced in a way that it's really hard to duplicate in other environments and other circles. [SPEAKER_04]: And after that first session, [SPEAKER_04]: there was a sense of safety that was very quickly adopted and felt.

34:41 [SPEAKER_04]: So as nerve-wracking as it is, the bonding that happened, I was surprised at how quickly that happened. [SPEAKER_04]: We had a really special group and I don't know if it was the crews or the people or what but again it was so magical and it just felt safe so quickly which I hadn't always had that experience in other intensive.

34:59 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and you guys went really deep. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean there was so much vulnerability very quickly. [SPEAKER_03]: And Amy actually before you came on the call, I always said something very similar that when we did the excursion to the yoga studio, to do the breath work and the trauma release exercises and all of that, that to do that sort of really intimate work would really require a level of safety and connection with the others and that we had really formed that in the couple of days that we were together before.

35:26 [SPEAKER_03]: We arrived in Key West and went to do that excursion. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And, Marnie, I don't think you give yourself enough credit, which is fine, because I'll do it for you. [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think that all of the women had been listeners of the podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: A couple of them had met us at another retreat, but people do feel like they know you.

35:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And as someone who is a listener and your friend, you are the same person. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you do show up authentically and many partners who feel so lonely and have heard your voice. [SPEAKER_01]: a beacon of light in a really dark time, then get to meet you in person and I've been on I've been in the car with a partner as I was driving her to her full therapeutic disclosure and you call, then she couldn't believe she was hearing your voice, you know, and we've had at the other way around where you've been in my car and a client has called and they've been like, yeah, we've [SPEAKER_01]: There is something about going, oh, I am in a safe space.

36:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm with people who get it, but I also have someone who's an expert in this. [SPEAKER_01]: And on my own recovery, I can say it's a real combo platter of I need people who really understand because they've been through it, but then I also need professional help. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm proud of our retreats because we have.

36:45 [SPEAKER_01]: you who is an expert, but also so compassionate. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we also have me who's just another bozo on the bus, you know, but I'm a little bit ahead of most of the partners because I've been doing this for a long time and had such a crash course in my own. [SPEAKER_01]: the trail trauma recovery and then getting certified.

37:07 [SPEAKER_03]: So you're also also madty. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's important to say you're also a beacon because you've been through it and you've come out on the other side where I think so many betrayed partners would like to get to, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And so [SPEAKER_03]: I think that you're sort of a living proof on some level that you can get through this.

37:23 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I will say for those who don't know your story, Maddie, is with her husband, they did stay together. [SPEAKER_03]: But that's not what I mean when I say a beacon and sort of a success story. [SPEAKER_03]: It's wonderful that she healed her marriage with her husband, but she healed herself.

37:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, like above all, that's what I like to focus on is that regardless of the status of your relationship or the future of your relationship, the thing that matters the most is your relationship with yourself and I think every woman that came on that cruise walked in and was struggling with their relationship with themselves.

37:58 [SPEAKER_05]: I would like to just take a minute to give both of you your flowers because I personally never felt like a participant in a retreat like I felt like there was a genuine heartfelt investment from both of you ball eight of us. [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't like you guys were just there just like hey let's go on a cruise and invite some women so we can do some work while we're there it wasn't that at all and I felt that and.

38:27 [SPEAKER_05]: It showed up in other ways too, like not just in that room. [SPEAKER_05]: Like Sean mentioned the blankets. [SPEAKER_05]: You know, the thoughtful things like that that, I mean, and to be honest, if you, if people listening are envisioning up sitting in a conference room for this, no, we never sat on the chairs, we grabbed those blankets and we sat on the floor, we were cutled up, we were, you know, however, we needed to sit to feel comfortable sometimes if you laying on our stomachs, it wasn't a traditional like, here are our facilitators and here are the participants, it didn't feel that way.

39:01 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't like you guys truly care about our journey, where we were at, where we were going. [SPEAKER_05]: And always be really appreciative of that because I felt that it made a difference for me and how I experienced the entire cruise because it wasn't just we're here at this retreat to be talked at like you guys genuinely wanted to share what we were feeling what we were thinking what our experiences were, but then you also cared about us as people I remember one night at dinner morning was like, [SPEAKER_05]: Who's got all kinds of pets and what's their names?

39:37 [SPEAKER_05]: Like it wasn't just the trail trauma. [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't just how broken we felt. [SPEAKER_05]: It was I want to know also about you because you're not just this thing that happened to you. [SPEAKER_05]: There's all these other things about me that matter. [SPEAKER_05]: And I remember saying a little thing to everybody talk about what kind of dogs they had, what kind of cats they had, what their names were and feeling like [SPEAKER_05]: This is going beyond just we're here to talk about the trail trauma.

40:04 [SPEAKER_05]: I'll share this story. [SPEAKER_05]: I've grew some for more teenage artists my favorite place. [SPEAKER_05]: We got on that ship and I'm like outing. [SPEAKER_05]: We got to go to the martini bar to make a favorite place. [SPEAKER_05]: The bar is made of ice. [SPEAKER_05]: It's amazing.

40:19 [SPEAKER_05]: And throughout the whole week, I was trying to get people to go to the Margini bar and nobody would go. [SPEAKER_05]: So I found, and there was one person in her group that was like, I will never go to the Margini bar or I'm in bed by eight, like, that's not my thing. [SPEAKER_05]: And there was one night, we all ended up not only at the Margini bar together, but we went for seven reasons.

40:38 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't remember why we were also in our pajamas. [SPEAKER_05]: We were in our pajamas at the Margini bar. [SPEAKER_03]: I know why because I know exactly why because we made a plan to meet back after dinner like later on and have sort of like a campfire conversations and we told you to come in pajamas and so everyone came in the job is and you guys decided to go out after.

41:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so I mean here we were at a martini were on the Christian inner pajamas. [SPEAKER_05]: And there was like people all around the bar dressed up and cute dresses and he and he just laughed and had so much fun and I'll never it doesn't mind how many cruisens I go on that will be my most memorable martini bar experience and the person who he was in bed by eight o'clock she even showed up like she even was there she also went dancing on the last night I know you're talking about yeah she did.

41:37 [SPEAKER_05]: Now, again, it's because the bond we were able to create the safety we felt in each other, like I feel like any of those reservations, like we're going on to a ship where you don't feel like you know anyone and you have no idea what to expect in yourself. [SPEAKER_05]: Let it with all of these feelings that you're dealing with in your marriage that.

41:56 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's almost unexpected, you don't expect it and then when it happens you're like, oh, like these are these are my sisters like this is that it's a such a unique experience and I'm so so thankful that I went and I did it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny Amy we're talking a lot about the joy and the dancing and the laughter and I think.

42:18 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we talk a lot in the recovery world about doing somatic work and part of doing somatic work is just so that your body can feel when you've been in this kind of betrayal trauma just. [SPEAKER_01]: is so severe, and our bodies are bracing for impact. [SPEAKER_01]: We're scanning for danger.

42:37 [SPEAKER_01]: We can't really take deep breaths. [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of somatic work is just for a minute, just let your body go, and then, oh, how does it feel to just have a couple of moments where you feel safe? [SPEAKER_01]: Where you've let go, you've put down a piece of your armor, and to have these major moments where your body, like Marny said, remembers that you can dance again [SPEAKER_01]: That is therapeutic, you know, I think, Marnie and I want to be clear that we're not like, and then we do the therapy and then we dance like it's all part of the healing and a lot of times recovery were especially sadly for partners is very serious because it is serious business and we don't minimize that.

43:20 [SPEAKER_01]: But having some delight and some lightness is so important to people who are carrying so much. [SPEAKER_01]: So we watched you guys and you're right, Shana and Ali and Amy, there was a method to the madness. [SPEAKER_01]: We weren't on day one like, why don't you guys get in your pajamas and go have Martin?

43:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, bye, two or three days in. [SPEAKER_01]: people had gotten so open with one another that you guys could be together and it was like there was no one else on the ship. [SPEAKER_01]: We would watch you guys walking and other people would look at you and be like, oh, I wish I could have that.

44:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And so many of us have had the opposite experience where people are looking at us who know our stories going poor them. [SPEAKER_01]: I would never want to be. [SPEAKER_01]: I would never do this. [SPEAKER_01]: I would leave. [SPEAKER_01]: I would stay. [SPEAKER_01]: I would have this feeling.

44:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I would [SPEAKER_01]: You guys get rid of judgment of yourselves and each other. [SPEAKER_01]: That was so beautiful. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, one of the memories I have along those lines. [SPEAKER_02]: Again, remember, you're up by the hot tub or the pools for a lot of us women. [SPEAKER_02]: That's a hard place to be around bikini, lots of skin showing.

44:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And you're feeling things, you're sensey things. [SPEAKER_02]: And you don't have anyone to talk with or process through on what you're seeing, both male and female. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh, my god, it's looking at the, you know, it's like, [SPEAKER_02]: to process through with women what we were seeing and how it was making us feel in that moment.

44:52 [SPEAKER_02]: You don't get that at a normal retreat that would be like a material comfort at a weekend away at this house where that's the only place you're now. [SPEAKER_02]: We got to be in the moment where a lot of a space difference will be. [SPEAKER_02]: and processed through that together and talked through it and even find funny things in the moment to help because that humor, that joy, that can come from, I'm not alone and what I'm struggling with I know and we can actually laugh about what's going on and then come back home from that with a different perspective or a voice.

45:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think there was one woman who said that she was planning to never go to a pool again and certainly not with her husband but to have an opportunity [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wait, I like this. [SPEAKER_01]: And I can do this and not actually have to be looking over my shoulder or wondering.

45:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a really good point, Seanan. [SPEAKER_01]: And we forget about that because other people don't think like that. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and here's the deal. [SPEAKER_03]: You guys all know this, but there's triggers everywhere. [SPEAKER_03]: You can't avoid them. [SPEAKER_03]: Even if you were able to stain your home all the time, you also have a TV.

45:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Right? [SPEAKER_03]: And that's one of the biggest triggers is what you can see on TV or even on the radio. [SPEAKER_03]: So [SPEAKER_03]: part of this very brave and painful journey that you're on is to learn how to navigate and how to survive all those triggers. [SPEAKER_03]: And so what I think you were just speaking to is a real life in real time opportunity, Shana, to like be out there in a triggering environment and to have other people to be with and to work through that.

46:24 [SPEAKER_03]: Because the answer [SPEAKER_03]: for long-term recovery and healing is not avoid triggers. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that that's possible. [SPEAKER_03]: I think you can avoid certain things. [SPEAKER_03]: Like if there's a specific place where you learned about something happening, yeah, you don't have to go to that place.

46:39 [SPEAKER_03]: But I think that that's also empowering going back to why we call this empowerment at sea. [SPEAKER_03]: Like you guys were able to empower yourself to be in an environment that could be triggering and scary and uncomfortable. [SPEAKER_03]: But you took it back, [SPEAKER_03]: And I also do want to say for anyone who is considering joining us for this next retreat, you do not have to go to the pool.

46:59 [SPEAKER_03]: So we don't have any events, for instance, in the Martini Bar, or, you know, the silent disco is totally volunteer. [SPEAKER_03]: You have the opportunity to join for some of those things, but those things are all voluntary. [SPEAKER_03]: In terms of, [SPEAKER_03]: the retreat activities themselves, they're in as Shana said earlier, a safe container in a very sacred space and away from everybody else on the ship.

47:22 [SPEAKER_03]: So you have the opportunity to choose what group activities outside of the retreat setting right outside of like our coaching sessions. [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to attend? [SPEAKER_03]: And like someone said earlier, the most awesome thing to see was that everybody was really attending.

47:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Like for the most part everyone chose to do that, but you're never told that you have to do something. [SPEAKER_03]: It's optional. [SPEAKER_03]: So I want to ask each of you to share if there was a part of you that you feel was healed. [SPEAKER_03]: on that ship and to share what that was for you.

47:51 [SPEAKER_03]: Like what did you get that you were able to take home with you besides each other because I've heard from everyone that that's sort of like the biggest takeaway. [SPEAKER_05]: I think yeah absolutely hands down it was the connections we made with each other like they're lifelong for me for sure.

48:10 [SPEAKER_05]: But I think besides the connection, I felt like I was able to kind of [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't have control over what happened to me. [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't have control over my reality being shattered. [SPEAKER_05]: And so feeling powerless was something that had become baseline for me. [SPEAKER_05]: And I think going on this, I felt like I was able to take some power back and realizing that I can't control what he's doing or what he's going to do in his recovery.

48:39 [SPEAKER_05]: But I can absolutely control my own and my own recovery. [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that kind of play it into also like, you know, justifying going justify and taking the time away from family and work and all of that is it's my way of controlling my recovery. [SPEAKER_05]: This isn't something I asked for it happened to me, but now I'm in control what I do with it and I felt empowered to do that because of the connection by me because of the works that we did.

49:05 [SPEAKER_05]: We were talking a lot about all the fun things we did amazing fun things so we did a lot of hard work also. [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, a lot of hard work, like many tears, many not handing each other clean access, even though it was really hard. [SPEAKER_05]: And I think that I walked away feeling like that's what I've got from it.

49:24 [SPEAKER_05]: My site and sisterhood, I felt like I'm finally able to have some control of my own recovery. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we picked the word that was our word and we wrote it in a shell. [SPEAKER_02]: And my word was peace. [SPEAKER_02]: To me, I got a vision of, you're on a boat out in the water and there's storm happening all around you and yet you can still feel secure you can still find peace even with that storm could you can't control that storm around you so that peace that can come in that kind of a storm it just was.

49:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was just empowered with that from the crews and from the 80s people. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I can go and take care of myself. [SPEAKER_02]: I can go across the country. [SPEAKER_02]: We're almost somebody I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: Be vulnerable with a group of women that we all have very different backgrounds and different stories.

50:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And yet now it's like those are the first people I want to tell you when I am faced with tickleful because I know that that is who will help bring me that piece. [SPEAKER_02]: I know that I've got this truth that's going to help me. [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the last exercises that you gave us to do on our clothing circle was to write a little note to like two or three people in it.

50:28 [SPEAKER_02]: And it wasn't much into that when we were all like hit this right at two or three people. [SPEAKER_02]: We're at root now. [SPEAKER_02]: We want to say something to each person and that's great. [SPEAKER_02]: And I've got mine. [SPEAKER_02]: I still have mine. [SPEAKER_02]: We had to tear the little cards up into tiny little pieces and order to be able to write something to everyone because we knew that we were all part of this group and we wanted to be those words over each other.

50:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And we felt the power. [SPEAKER_02]: I know I know what I need to hear. [SPEAKER_02]: I know how I've connected with Ali. [SPEAKER_02]: I know how I've connected with Marty and Maddie in ways that I want to give them those words so that they take that way with them and build a power of been out alone and you're not in this by yourself.

51:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I kept mine too. [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't expect to get any. [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't expect to get any at all. [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, you guys given to each other and so I value that and cherish that so much. [SPEAKER_05]: I have mine also and I also still have my shell and it is sitting in my bathroom and next my vanity.

51:23 [SPEAKER_05]: Mine too. [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to bring up the sheds funny you talked about the shell shot on because that was kind of my thing as well and since my husband and I have gotten into a rhythm and recovery where we've really focused on. [SPEAKER_04]: attempting to reconcile like there was a long time where I was on the fence and since then, you know, we've had a lot of walks outside.

51:43 [SPEAKER_04]: We do a lot of nature walks and we started finding just really magical things like feathers and cool like heart shaped rocks and things. [SPEAKER_04]: So we got this gold kind of framed glass box that we keep all of our nature treasures in and that's where [SPEAKER_04]: mindset acceptance.

52:07 [SPEAKER_04]: And I mentioned I was about 14, 15 months in. [SPEAKER_04]: If any of you are there or have been there, you know, that's one of those points where you kind of hit this exhaustion wall. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think I and hit that my husband had just had a second integrity relapse. [SPEAKER_04]: So he had with help all the little information from me and.

52:24 [SPEAKER_04]: It was better experience than the first and it's still hurt like crazy and yet I had seen all the progress he had made and I'd seen all the progress I had made and I didn't want that to be for nothing and so I went into this cruise feeling exhausted feeling a little lost and really hurt and I wanted nothing more than to have acceptance for this being where I'm at right now.

52:50 [SPEAKER_04]: I will say, I am not 100% there yet, but I think the cruise was the first step to accepting this is my present day. [SPEAKER_04]: And Marny used said something to me when I was expressing some doubt and some frustration about that relapse. [SPEAKER_04]: You said, you're just a month out from that be patient with yourself.

53:11 [SPEAKER_04]: Give yourself some grace. [SPEAKER_04]: And just that validation alone allowed me to release some of the pressure that I was putting on myself to be in a place that I wasn't at right at that moment and Is something that I'm trying to embrace every day to moving forward is this is where I'm at today.

53:29 [SPEAKER_04]: This is the reality that I have today. [SPEAKER_04]: and take another step forward. [SPEAKER_04]: So I think that the cruise was my first step towards acceptance and it will be a continuing journey for me. [SPEAKER_03]: It's so beautiful to hear. [SPEAKER_03]: I want to be mindful of time.

53:45 [SPEAKER_03]: I know that we've been talking for a while, but I do think that it's worth addressing who the cruise is for, right, and who's it not for, because I would never want somebody to [SPEAKER_03]: attend anything if it's not right for them where they are at that time. [SPEAKER_03]: So do you guys want to maybe speak to that a little bit?

54:00 [SPEAKER_03]: Who you feel like the cruisest for and who maybe would not be ready for something like this? [SPEAKER_05]: You feel like we had women at all different stages of this process, journey, whatever you want to call it. [SPEAKER_05]: And so I don't know that it's necessarily like about where you're at in it because we all kind of met each other where everyone was at.

54:20 [SPEAKER_05]: But I think that [SPEAKER_05]: Maybe for someone who is still in that place where everything is a trigger like they can't get past that initial painstaking where you can't you can barely get out of bed like it's too heavy I think for someone who is still feeling really raw in this process.

54:44 [SPEAKER_05]: I think other than that, as long as you are emotionally able to participate in that means also holding other people's pain, like I now know these seven women's stories and I carry them with me and I also, you know, [SPEAKER_05]: think about them often. [SPEAKER_05]: So you have to be able to also carry each other's story in a way carry each other's pain because when you see someone that you now care about in pain or hearing something it's difficult.

55:14 [SPEAKER_05]: And then I think that that's also something that you have to be prepared for. [SPEAKER_05]: So I think as long as you're emotionally in a place where you can participate and also be able to hold space for others. [SPEAKER_05]: I think that [SPEAKER_05]: that would really be the only thing I would say in terms of who would be a good fit to go on this cruise or any of the retreats to that matter.

55:36 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I tend to agree, Amy. [SPEAKER_04]: I think we all were able to really meet each other where we were. [SPEAKER_04]: And we were all in very different places. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's part of what made the dynamic wonderful. [SPEAKER_04]: So I would not really exclude much.

55:48 [SPEAKER_04]: I do think it would be hard to be there if you are in that immense crisis phase or even maybe pre-disclosure phase. [SPEAKER_04]: depending on where you're at emotionally like my disclosure happened pretty quickly, so that was a short period of time. [SPEAKER_04]: I know some people are longer, so that's going to vary.

56:02 [SPEAKER_04]: But I'd say if you're in that pure crisis phase, some stabilization might help so that you can maximize your experience and really create that connection so that your head isn't just constantly spinning. [SPEAKER_04]: But again, I think the magic and the beauty of these things is that we've all been there done that and we do meet each other where we're at no matter where that is.

56:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I didn't think of one of our partners in this. [SPEAKER_02]: Having signed up at the last moment, joined with the last second. [SPEAKER_02]: Was still in a state of crisis? [SPEAKER_02]: Was it sure whether or not she would be able to open out? [SPEAKER_02]: of her growth from the beginning to the end.

56:38 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, you guys know exactly who I'm talking about without saying names because you became, I've got goosebumps! [SPEAKER_02]: It's just even just still taking back on that of how much even a hard time it can be a start by the end. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, Lauren, you do such a good job, Matt.

56:58 [SPEAKER_02]: You guys do such a good job, but it's hard. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe if you're nursing a baby and you can't leave a baby, that would be a reason not to come, but there's not many. [SPEAKER_01]: It's magic. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just magic. [SPEAKER_01]: We were all just nodding when you were describing.

57:12 [SPEAKER_01]: that particular sister. [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, there's a lot of fear to leave this behind. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of reasons to not go, but to give this treat to yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: I know that one of the women said to me that she had been holding on to a lot of resentment for her husband who had done a lot of intensive and.

57:31 [SPEAKER_01]: done inpatient and I think she had never taken time to really do something for her own healing and for her own well-being and this felt like a form of justice in a way. [SPEAKER_01]: So whatever the reasons, I think a lot of [SPEAKER_01]: you guys came for different reasons, but you really did come together for healing.

57:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think anybody was expecting it to fully be what it was. [SPEAKER_01]: And that was great too. [SPEAKER_01]: People just knew they needed something. [SPEAKER_01]: This is too much to carry alone. [SPEAKER_01]: And so many of us just go, I don't know, maybe this will help. [SPEAKER_01]: And just to hear that at least three of you, and I know we've heard from the [SPEAKER_01]: healing and reclaiming yourselves is so awesome.

58:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And I agree with Marnie that we do a lot of couples work and we love couples work but there's something about women coming together. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about what will happen in your relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: It's what will happen with your relationship with yourselves. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think just like you guys didn't know what you were coming for, but you knew you wanted something.

58:39 [SPEAKER_03]: I think for Maddie and I, it's very similar. [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, we had an agenda, we shared that with you guys before the cruise. [SPEAKER_03]: But we were willing and ready to switch and pivot when we needed to and we did quite a few times. [SPEAKER_03]: So I think Maddie and I also knew it needed to happen, but I also don't think that we could have put into words exactly what it was.

58:58 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, it's sort of like a knowing like you guys knew I needed this and I think we knew that we needed to do it So something I wanted to say was I agree with you guys about who is this for who's this not for that really? [SPEAKER_03]: Well, first of all, it's definitely not about what you are partner did.

59:13 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not about what they're acting out behavior was It's not really about when did you find out? [SPEAKER_03]: But I do think that if you are in a substantial state of crisis, like you're not going to get what you need out of it, like when you guys think about when you've been in the worst of the trauma and you're not thinking clearly, right?

59:31 [SPEAKER_03]: That wouldn't be the best thing. [SPEAKER_03]: What would be really great for that person would be another intensive where it's more therapeutic. [SPEAKER_03]: And the sense they might have some trauma modalities, EMDR, somatic therapy. [SPEAKER_03]: But what I do want to say for anyone who's listening and feeling like, oh, this is exactly what I need.

59:47 [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't think that I'm in that place based on what I'm hearing. [SPEAKER_03]: Just know that we're doing another retreat. [SPEAKER_03]: It's in Montauk. [SPEAKER_03]: It's on land, but it's on the water, and that's in April. [SPEAKER_03]: if this isn't the time, there will be other time.

1:00:01 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not going anywhere. [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to keep doing it because as we just said, I think it's really important. [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think there's anything quite like women healing with other women and by the way men healing with other men. [SPEAKER_03]: I really think that we heal through the eyes of others.

1:00:16 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's what happened when we were out on that ship. [SPEAKER_03]: The way that this came together was so organic and beautiful and you said an amazing precedent for future retreats and I just feel so honored that you all trusted us that you showed up and that you sort of just went with it.

1:00:34 [SPEAKER_03]: and that you came out of it with a group of sisters who, you know, are there no matter what. [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to say something earlier. [SPEAKER_03]: I think at Amy, you were saying that you felt like you were empowered by it. [SPEAKER_03]: You got some power back and it made me think like, yeah, betrayed partners are so disempowered because you don't have a choice, right?

1:00:51 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like you asked for it. [SPEAKER_03]: So there's so much disempowerment. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why I think that doing something like this is so valuable because it's taking you from a place of disempowerment and it's giving you your power back. [SPEAKER_03]: is so incredibly important.

1:01:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you guys have any final thoughts that you'd like to share? [SPEAKER_03]: And if anybody is out there thinking, like, how do I know if this is right for me? [SPEAKER_03]: What would you say? [SPEAKER_02]: even have an idea that might be something you want to do, explore it more. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I just think, all right, I looked in, that's like, yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

1:01:22 [SPEAKER_02]: There's roadblocks that could have gotten in the way. [SPEAKER_02]: I first stopped being, okay, it was an October, and I had just switched jobs, and it was going to, I was not to ask for a week off from school, right after starting a new job. [SPEAKER_02]: I think I shouldn't do it, but I know, no, no, keep going like, well, I'm not going to let the airline take it, see how much they cost.

1:01:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And if they're crazy, expensive, then I'm not going to do it. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, then for whatever reason, the airline taking sort of crazy expensive when I went to book my flight. [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, things just kind of worked out. [SPEAKER_02]: And then it's like, I'm going to remember someone I don't know.

1:01:53 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have someone to deal with me. [SPEAKER_02]: I can. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I don't want to know that lifelong friends now for doing and people that just get it. [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're thinking about it, there's also the chance to call and talk to your people learning and ask for the question.

1:02:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, I'll talk to anybody who's wondering if it's right for them or wants to know a little bit more. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm happy to do that. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Shana. [SPEAKER_05]: I think I would say that [SPEAKER_05]: In general, as women work care takers and we're focused on other people.

1:02:21 [SPEAKER_05]: So I would say, you're worse the time you're worse the money, it's an investment, like I said earlier, your reality was shattered and now you can invest in yourself. [SPEAKER_05]: and surround yourself with people who are gonna understand and are gonna offer you safety that you likely don't have in your day-to-day.

1:02:43 [SPEAKER_05]: And I mean, that's, it's priceless in comparison to what you're paying to do to do it. [SPEAKER_04]: For me, probably one of the scariest things going in was the cruise element itself. [SPEAKER_04]: I was not a cruiser, I was novice, I was so thankful to have my partner, Amy, help me out because she's cruise pro.

1:03:02 [SPEAKER_04]: But there were several of us that really had never been on a cruise and didn't know what we were doing. [SPEAKER_04]: And I would say if that's something that feels intimidating to you or feels a little scary, [SPEAKER_04]: It was the best first cruise experience ever. [SPEAKER_04]: So I would say don't let that hold you back and just have an exploratory call, see if it's right for you.

1:03:22 [SPEAKER_04]: But gosh, I wouldn't trade this experience for the world. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: I love cruising. [SPEAKER_03]: I've done, I think, about 10, 11 cruises in the last two years, which might seem excessive, but I love it. [SPEAKER_03]: And this took a to a whole new level, healing on the water was incredible.

1:03:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And actually, you guys, I wish that I, [SPEAKER_03]: could jump into a retreat on the ocean for myself, you know, because I think it was Amy that said earlier, just the water is so healing. [SPEAKER_03]: There's something about it that's just, I don't know, you know, we talk a lot about like a higher power in the recovery world.

1:03:54 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that there's something about the water. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, it's just something that's so much bigger. [SPEAKER_03]: the new, right, and vast. [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, it's like filled with possibility. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's beautiful. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you all for coming on the retreat and I feel like my life is better having gotten to know you all.

1:04:12 [SPEAKER_03]: And to anybody who's listening, if you're interested, the dates of the next Empowered at C is August 1st through the 6th of the 7th. [SPEAKER_03]: I cannot remember, and I'm so sorry, but it's on the website and of anyone wants to learn more just book a free call and we're happy to tell you more.

1:04:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And thank you, Shauna, Amy, and Ali for coming on and sharing parts of your story with us. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, it's morning, for having us. [SPEAKER_03]: We'll talk soon. [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks everybody, we'll see you next time. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast where you're healing is our number one priority.

1:04:46 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about betrayal trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 5662-379-4325. [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about.

1:05:11 [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community. [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.