108. Who Are You Trusting With Your Betrayal Trauma?

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marnie Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couple's heel podcast was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:10 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone, welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill Podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Marty. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk to you today about who you are trusting with your betrayal trauma.

1:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk to you about this because it's something that has been bothering me for a long time. [SPEAKER_01]: And I decided to finally record this episode today because I literally just received a message a few hours ago that brought it up again. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's in the front of my mind right now and I think it's a really [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's about who we are trusting to help us heal from betrayal.

1:59 [SPEAKER_01]: People recovering from betrayal are an incredibly vulnerable population. [SPEAKER_01]: People come into this space where this work, feeling incredibly confused, devastated, disregulated, desperate for answers, and often questioning their own reality. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what good reason they have already been lied to.

2:20 [SPEAKER_01]: They have already been deceived. [SPEAKER_01]: They have already been given information that wasn't true. [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes, unfortunately, the next person they trust can inadvertently create another layer of harm. [SPEAKER_01]: I am increasingly concerned about professionals who publicly position themselves as specialists in betrayal when their experience, their actual experience, training, supervision, consultation, or depth of clinical exposure is quite limited.

2:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to be very clear about something. [SPEAKER_01]: This conversation is in no way about gatekeeping. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not interested in that. [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that there are so many amazing resources out there, so many people capable of helping so many incredible programs available and I collaborate with and refer to colleagues regularly.

3:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about saying that there is only one right way to treat betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: That's just not the case at all. [SPEAKER_01]: There are different models. [SPEAKER_01]: There are different theoretical orientations. [SPEAKER_01]: There are different clinicians, coaches, researchers, and organizations contributing valuable ideas to this field.

3:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Healthy disagreement is completely appropriate. [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, it's not just appropriate. [SPEAKER_01]: It's welcome. [SPEAKER_01]: It's important. [SPEAKER_01]: I was on the debate team in college. [SPEAKER_01]: I love a healthy debate. [SPEAKER_01]: What concerns me is when personal opinion is presented as established clinical fact, particularly when that opinion contradicts a substantial body of research or the collective experience of established professionals and organizations working in the field of the trail trauma for years.

3:54 [SPEAKER_01]: and that distinction matters. [SPEAKER_01]: There is a huge difference between saying, this is what I have observed in my practice or this is what I've observed with my clients and saying this is how betrayal recovery works. [SPEAKER_01]: Those are not the same statement. [SPEAKER_01]: And when you are working with people who are already vulnerable, that distinction carries with it enormous, ethical weight.

4:20 [SPEAKER_01]: One specific example of what I'm talking about is the conversation around how long recovery from betrayal takes. [SPEAKER_01]: I have heard people make very definitive claims about recovery timelines, including claims that challenge the idea that recovery can take years. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what I think we need to be very careful about.

4:38 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no universal stopwatch that says every portrayed partner or every couple will recover in exactly three years, five years, 12 months, or any other number. [SPEAKER_01]: And the way I was reminded of this is that a former client just sent me a post from a pretty inexperienced coach who was telling their audience to essentially wipe out the idea of a three to five-year recovery timeline.

5:02 [SPEAKER_01]: The message essentially was just, don't buy into that timeline if you accept it, you're just signing yourself up for it. [SPEAKER_01]: I and my clients have healed in a fraction of that time. [SPEAKER_01]: To me, this kind of coaching advice that we see circulating on social media might sound empowering on the surface, but it could be deeply invalidating in practice.

5:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, on the surface, this sounds like a really great message of hope, who wouldn't want to be told that they can hack their healing and be done with the pain in a [SPEAKER_01]: but I have to be very, very clear. [SPEAKER_01]: That is not empowerment. [SPEAKER_01]: It's anecdotal and in the context of betrayal trauma, anecdotal is dangerous misinformation.

5:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It refers to claims or advice based entirely on personal experience observations or a small non-representative sample of individuals. [SPEAKER_01]: So when you hear someone say for example, my clients all recovered in six months or I got over my trauma [SPEAKER_01]: When you hear someone tell you to hurry up and heal, or imply that your timeline is a result of your mindset, please do not listen.

6:09 [SPEAKER_01]: When someone says, my clients did it fast. [SPEAKER_01]: Please recognize that as simply anecdotal. [SPEAKER_01]: anecdotal evidence relies on the experience of one person or a small group. [SPEAKER_01]: It lacks the rigor of data of clinical data, which observes outcomes across a large diverse population over time.

6:30 [SPEAKER_01]: When a coach uses anecdotal evidence to tell others how they should heal, then they are ignoring the vast range of variables that affect recovery, such as the severity and need to have the betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: the individual's nervous system history and trauma response and the level of safety and support available in their current life or in their current environment.

6:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I'm going to give an example of anecdotal versus evidence-based, so that this is easily understood. [SPEAKER_01]: anecdotal might sound like, I did it this way and it worked for me so it's true for everybody. [SPEAKER_01]: The clinical or evidence-based would sound like the data suggests that for the majority of people nervous system regulation and integration take X amount of time and hear the markers of that process.

7:16 [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing about anecdotal is that it confuses suppression with healing. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a very critical distinction in betrayal trauma, [SPEAKER_01]: with true healing or true integration, and individual might appear healed because of all sorts of reasons, maybe they've compartmentalized their pain, or they've minimized the impact of the damage that has been caused, or they have somehow learned to avoid triggers.

7:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Essentially, what that looks like, and we hear this a lot in the 12-step rooms, is white knuckleling. [SPEAKER_01]: whitenuckling your way through, suppressing emotions or compartmentalizing is very different from true nervous system integration. [SPEAKER_01]: Those who heal quickly for all sorts of different reasons, maybe they had high levels of existing resilience prior to the trauma or they have specific resources or maybe a less complex trauma profile.

8:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever the reasons are, these people often become the [SPEAKER_01]: by projecting their journey onto everyone else, they create a standard of normalcy that is actually an outlier, anyone who doesn't fit that accelerated timeline is then unfairly judged as stuck or failing. [SPEAKER_01]: And when we tell trauma survivors, [SPEAKER_01]: That recovery is a choice or a matter of willpower or mindset.

8:42 [SPEAKER_01]: We are literally pathologizing the grieving process. [SPEAKER_01]: And the grieving process is just the natural and normal response to loss. [SPEAKER_01]: And in betrayal, as we know, there is so much loss. [SPEAKER_01]: So to pathologize the grieving process and minimize the neuroscience of trauma, which tells us it takes time.

9:01 [SPEAKER_01]: The brain doesn't bounce back in a day or two or months or a year. [SPEAKER_01]: That three to five year window that clinicians and especially C-Sats often talk about is literally just a recognition of the natural complex and very non-linear reality of rewiring a nervous system that has been shattered by betrayal.

9:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But trail trauma isn't just about getting over a bad experience. [SPEAKER_01]: It involves the integration of someone's shattered reality. [SPEAKER_01]: It involves the processing of complex grief. [SPEAKER_01]: And ambiguous grief, which I'm sure you've heard me talk about before. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, trying to grieve somebody who is actually still here.

9:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that person is still sleeping next to you every night, or maybe they're living in a different house around the corner. [SPEAKER_01]: But regardless of where they are, they are still here. [SPEAKER_01]: And it involves the painstaking, rebuilding of safety. [SPEAKER_01]: If you aren't healed in nine months, it does not mean that you have bought into some kind of negative timeline or negative mindset.

9:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that you have a bad mindset or you're doing something wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: It means you are human. [SPEAKER_01]: It means that your body and brain are doing exactly what it needs to do to stabilize. [SPEAKER_01]: My approach has always been the opposite of hurry up. [SPEAKER_01]: I believe in honoring the magnitude of what you've been through or what you are currently going through, if that is the case for you now.

10:21 [SPEAKER_01]: True healing isn't about shortening your timeline, though of course I wish it could happen faster. [SPEAKER_01]: I wish there was a magic button I could push in your suffering would just end, but that's not reality. [SPEAKER_01]: neuroscience is reality. [SPEAKER_01]: PTSD can last for decades or potentially a lifetime if left untreated.

10:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I do not say that to scare you, but I'm saying it to be transparent about the reality of trauma so you can approach your healing with realistic expectations. [SPEAKER_01]: That said, I also want you to know that in my own practice, I have never had a client remain trapped in the cycle of betrayal of trauma for a lifetime.

10:57 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I have seen many clients reach that other side and go on to [SPEAKER_01]: Healing means moving out of the survival state, but it does not mean forgetting and it does not mean never being triggered again. [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually not uncommon at all for symptoms to flare up, or worsen during stressful events like D-days and adversaries, or when reminders of the trauma are present.

11:21 [SPEAKER_01]: True healing is about giving yourself permission to move at the speed of your own [SPEAKER_01]: True healing happens when you stop fighting your recovery and start engaging with it actively. [SPEAKER_01]: We aren't looking for a quick fix. [SPEAKER_01]: Quick fixes don't last. [SPEAKER_01]: We are looking for a foundational shift that holds up under the weight of real life and over long periods of time.

11:51 [SPEAKER_01]: When a professional or a coach tells you that you're healing timeline is a choice. [SPEAKER_01]: They are subtly shifting the burden of trauma back onto you where it does not belong. [SPEAKER_01]: It suggests that if you are in better yet, it's because you aren't trying hard enough, or you're buying into the wrong mindset.

12:09 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a very dangerous power dynamic. [SPEAKER_01]: A betrayal-culture therapist does not dictate your pace. [SPEAKER_01]: They walk beside you at your pace. [SPEAKER_01]: They respect the weight you are carrying rather than trying to convince you to put it down before you're ready. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to speak directly now to anyone listening who feels stuck in that messy non-linear middle-ground of recovery.

12:35 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the place where the integration happens. [SPEAKER_01]: It might feel awkward and bad and like you're not moving forward. [SPEAKER_01]: But again, this is a pivotal transformative time. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the time when you're learning to trust again. [SPEAKER_01]: When you're learning to regulate again and learning to build a new life on a foundation that was shaken.

12:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps that collapsed completely. [SPEAKER_01]: There is no advanced student in this process who gets to skip the hard work. [SPEAKER_01]: Be wary of anyone selling you a shortcut. [SPEAKER_01]: Be aware of anyone telling you that a shortcut exists. [SPEAKER_01]: Healing is not a race, and the only right timeline is the one that allows you to arrive at a place of true, sustainable safety.

13:24 [SPEAKER_01]: If you are currently in that nine month, one year, or even two mark and you're still struggling, you are not failing. [SPEAKER_01]: You are simply on the path. [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot accelerate deep, relational healing the way you can when you listen to a podcast at a higher speed to save time.

13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no shortcut to safety. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't let someone else's claims about fast healing make you feel like you are behind or worse that you are doing something wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: The last thing I want to highlight is that for a person with betrayal trauma, feeling behind in their recovery is a major source of shame.

14:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So in the example, I gave you about the coach who sent a message on her social media platform about the fact that it shouldn't take three to five years to heal. [SPEAKER_01]: That coach's advice in my opinion inadvertently weaponizes that shame. [SPEAKER_01]: People are different. [SPEAKER_01]: The nature and the severity of betrayal are different in every situation.

14:23 [SPEAKER_01]: The duration of deception is different. [SPEAKER_01]: The presence or absence of ongoing disclosure is different. [SPEAKER_01]: The degree of accountability is different, the degree of humility is different. [SPEAKER_01]: There may be an unlikely R attachment injuries or attachment trauma.

14:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Trauma responses compulsive sexual behavior or addiction. [SPEAKER_01]: Family of origin issues mental health problems. [SPEAKER_01]: Substance use, there could be financial betrayal, parenting issues, or years of accumulated relational injury. [SPEAKER_01]: So, no responsible professional should ever promise a particular timeline, and they should certainly never give false hope.

15:01 [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to say that the absence of a universal timeline does not mean that recovery is necessarily quick either. [SPEAKER_01]: For many, many people, healing from betrayal is a long-term process. [SPEAKER_01]: And I really wish it wasn't. [SPEAKER_01]: I say this all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: If it was possible to do it faster, I think I would have figured that out by now.

15:21 [SPEAKER_01]: I certainly know that I would have given it everything I had to try to figure out how to make healing happen faster. [SPEAKER_01]: But when we're dealing with betrayal trauma and the nervous system, remember this is neuroscience and mindset and willingness and wanting does not heal trauma.

15:37 [SPEAKER_01]: it takes a lot more and it takes time. [SPEAKER_01]: And there is substantial clinical literature describing betrayal trauma and attachment injury and trauma recovery and the impact of compulsive or addictive sexual behavior on partners and relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: So, when someone makes an extremely confident statement about what recovery should look like, I think we need to ask, where did that claim come from?

16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it based on clinical experience? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it based on a particular theoretical model? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it the person's personal philosophy? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it anecdotal? [SPEAKER_01]: Or is it supported by research? [SPEAKER_01]: And most importantly, are they telling the client which of those things it is?

16:18 [SPEAKER_01]: because people deserve to know the difference between evidence and opinion. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying opinion doesn't matter, of course it does, everyone has an opinion. [SPEAKER_01]: And when we trust somebody, oftentimes we rely on those opinions or we certainly take them into account.

16:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But people, again, when they're dealing with making decisions about their treatment and when they're experiencing betrayal trauma, they deserve to know the difference, specifically between what is evidence and what is opinion. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is why I want to encourage you to vet your professionals.

16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Create a treatment team based on what you need, and that requires some initial research and work. [SPEAKER_01]: If you are considering working with someone because they call themselves a betrayal specialist, I want you to ask questions. [SPEAKER_01]: Not because you need to find the perfect professional.

17:04 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't exist. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no perfect. [SPEAKER_01]: But it is about you making sure that you find someone that you're putting your trust in, that you feel safe with. [SPEAKER_01]: Because you deserve to know who you are putting your trust in. [SPEAKER_01]: Ask questions like, how long have you actually worked in this field?

17:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, really worked in this field. [SPEAKER_01]: How many years have you spent directly working with betrayed partners, betraying partners and couples dealing with the trail? [SPEAKER_01]: What was your actual role during those years when you were working with those clients? [SPEAKER_01]: Were you a therapist, a coach, an intern, an administrator, a program or clinical director, were you a business owner or a group facilitator?

17:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, leadership experience is valuable, administrative experience is really valuable, coaching experiences valuable. [SPEAKER_01]: But those things are not interchangeable with clinical experience, and sometimes clinical experience is what is needed. [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes a coach is great for a specific time, and then we need to move to a higher level of care, or sometimes we're in a higher level of care and then we move to a coach.

18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody has an incredibly important role. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's important for you as someone who's coming in to get help to know [SPEAKER_01]: What is the person in front of you able to do to help you? [SPEAKER_01]: And how did they get their training? [SPEAKER_01]: How did they become the right person to help you?

18:23 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you know that they're the right person? [SPEAKER_01]: So ask, ask exactly what they've been doing with this population, ask what training have you received? [SPEAKER_01]: Not just are you certified, but what did the training actually involve? [SPEAKER_01]: How extensive was it? [SPEAKER_01]: What model or models do you use?

18:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Who developed those models? [SPEAKER_01]: What is the theoretical and research foundation behind them? [SPEAKER_01]: How do you stay current with development in the field? [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, I realize as I'm saying this, that it might feel overwhelming, and you're likely already overwhelmed, and when we are overwhelmed, we often just want to find someone we can trust and believe in and know that they have our back.

19:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So believe me, as I'm offering you this list of questions to ask, I'm also very aware that it might feel exhausting or frustrating or unnerving. [SPEAKER_01]: for you to have to ask these questions and figure it out by yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: But unfortunately, this is your responsibility.

19:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Making sure that you get the best possible care is the greatest gift you can give yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: And sadly, nobody else can do that for you. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, [SPEAKER_01]: I really encourage you to continue to ask all the questions. [SPEAKER_01]: Ask things like, do you participate in ongoing supervision or consultation or mentorship?

19:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you do any continuing education? [SPEAKER_01]: Because this work is really complicated. [SPEAKER_01]: I say this in every episode. [SPEAKER_01]: Betrayal trauma and treating betrayal trauma and recovering from betrayal trauma is very complex. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't simply take a weekend training and suddenly understand betrayal, trauma, or know how to treat it.

19:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't read a book or listen to a handful of podcasts and suddenly become an expert. [SPEAKER_01]: And suddenly understand the nervous system and attachment injury and compulsive sexual behavior or trauma or disclosure or shame or relational repair or any of those things or a combination of all of those things.

20:17 [SPEAKER_01]: The enormous complexity of working with both partners and the couple. [SPEAKER_01]: expertise develops through training, experience, supervision, consultation, humility, and continued learning. [SPEAKER_01]: Not just one of those things, but all of those things. [SPEAKER_01]: And frankly, I respect professionals who know what they don't know.

20:38 [SPEAKER_01]: To me, that's a marker of expertise. [SPEAKER_01]: To me, that is a marker of professionalism. [SPEAKER_01]: I also want you to ask and be curious about [SPEAKER_01]: Do they have relationships with other experienced professionals in the field of betrayal? [SPEAKER_01]: Do they consult with people who specialize in areas outside of their own expertise?

20:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Do they have access to psychiatrists, physicians, trauma specialists, addiction specialists, couples therapist, sex therapists, or other professionals when a client needs something outside their scope, because no one person knows everything. [SPEAKER_01]: the best professionals I know do not pretend that they do.

21:18 [SPEAKER_01]: They collaborate, they refer, they consult, they ask questions, and probably most important, they always continue learning, and they are willing to say, I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: That's not weakness, that's professional integrity, and professional integrity is a powerful foundation for building trust.

21:38 [SPEAKER_01]: When someone says I don't know, that creates a space where genuine inquiry and growth can happen, rather than performative expertise that comes from seemingly having all the answers. [SPEAKER_01]: Personally, I would much rather hear someone say to me, I don't know, then receive an answer based on my opinion or speculation, which is often disguised as fact.

22:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I value the integrity of an I don't know, because it builds trust, whereas guesswork undermines trust. [SPEAKER_01]: Certainty can sometimes be a major red flag, not always. [SPEAKER_01]: There are things that are certain, but absolutely sometimes. [SPEAKER_01]: Be careful with anyone who is an answer for everything, especially when their answer is presented as the only answer.

22:23 [SPEAKER_01]: The trail is not simple. [SPEAKER_01]: It is the opposite. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it is complex. [SPEAKER_01]: There are no [SPEAKER_01]: five sentences that explain every betrayed partner. [SPEAKER_01]: There is no one timeline that applies to every couple. [SPEAKER_01]: There is no one intervention that works for everyone.

22:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And there certainly isn't one person who has figured out this entire field. [SPEAKER_01]: If someone tells you something that sounds very definitive, especially if you don't know them well, and if you aren't familiar with their credentials, ask them. [SPEAKER_01]: What's the evidence for that?

22:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And see what happens. [SPEAKER_01]: A good professional should be able to have that conversation with you. [SPEAKER_01]: They should be able to tell you, this is what the research says, this is what my clinical experience has shown me, this is one theory, or this is just my opinion. [SPEAKER_01]: Those distinctions are really important, mostly because they're just honest, people that are coming to us for help have been misled.

23:19 [SPEAKER_01]: You've likely been misled. [SPEAKER_01]: You've been deceived, you've been deceived, so honesty is more important than anything. [SPEAKER_01]: The people coming to see us as professionals deserve better. [SPEAKER_01]: You are not just another person or client, you are likely questioning your sanity, you are likely questioning your worth or your future.

23:40 [SPEAKER_01]: You may be questioning your marriage, you may be questioning whether you can ever trust your own intuition again. [SPEAKER_01]: You may have spent years being told one thing while another reality was happening behind your back. [SPEAKER_01]: So when you finally seek professional help, I believe that I have an enormous responsibility [SPEAKER_01]: We cannot recreate as professionals the very dynamic that you are trying to heal from by giving you certainty where there isn't certainty, or giving you an opinion where there should be evidence, or having confidence where there isn't confidence.

24:20 [SPEAKER_01]: That is why I am becoming increasingly passionate about encouraging people to vet their professionals. [SPEAKER_01]: And after you ask all of those questions that I've suggested today, sit back and listen and pay very close attention to how the person responds. [SPEAKER_01]: Because expertise is not just about having a title.

24:39 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so much more. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about having a large following or a large audience. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not about being charismatic. [SPEAKER_01]: It isn't just about having a podcast or a course or a certification or a website that's really cool and says specialist. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think people who are already hurting deserve to be extraordinarily careful about who they hand their healing to.

25:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm talking to you because betrayal has already taught you what it feels like to trust someone who wasn't trustworthy. [SPEAKER_01]: I believe very strongly that the helping relationship should never become another betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: I know I probably sounded really intense in this episode, and I even feel it in my own body, but I really feel strongly about this, so many of my clients come to me and they have had treatment and do trauma.

25:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Treatment and just trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: comes from professionals who are meant to help and actually cause further harm. [SPEAKER_01]: And so because of the fact that I would say that the majority of my clients, the majority of the clients that come into both my clinical practice and to help in couples heal looking for help, [SPEAKER_01]: share that they have already been harmed by therapists, or coaches, or sponsors, and with a sponsor, they're not a professional.

26:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would even say that with a sponsor, there's a little bit more grace, right? [SPEAKER_01]: They're just peers in a program offering experience, strength, and hope. [SPEAKER_01]: But when someone's coming and paying money and investing, financially investing, investing of their time, their energy, their trust, [SPEAKER_01]: It's really important that the people that they're trusting are deserving of that trust.

26:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope that this was helpful. [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that if you are not working with people that you feel confident in or that you haven't yet started to find your professionals, that you'll take some time and maybe re-listen to the episode and jot down some of those questions that I was suggesting.

26:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I think oftentimes when we first talk to a person, particularly a new therapist, someone we might be maybe intimidated by or a little bit afraid of, it's hard in that moment to think of the best questions. [SPEAKER_01]: When, I know for me, like, if I have to go to the doctor, back when I had cancer and I would go to the doctors and meet different doctors and I was trying to determine who my team was going to be.

26:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I would bring people with me to write things down or I would always make sure that if I was alone, I had a note pad and I was taking notes because I would never remember afterwards anything that had been said. [SPEAKER_01]: So come back to this episode as many times as you'd like. [SPEAKER_01]: Take notes, write down the questions, add to the list, think of your own questions that I might have not included here today, and really become your biggest advocate, advocate for your healing because you deserve it and you are worth it.

27:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening and I'll see you again soon. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

27:51 [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

28:10 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.