109. When Needing Feels Unsafe: Understanding Dependency, Shame, and Healthy Interdependence

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marnie Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcasts was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Huel, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Huel. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:10 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone, welcome back to Helping Couples Hill pod cast. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Marty. [SPEAKER_01]: And today, I'm going to tackle the topic of dependency, which came up actually in my men's shame group last week.

1:41 [SPEAKER_01]: So, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that I talk a lot about how shame is a major barrier to healing after betrayal, and that while we can't cure or eradicate shame, we can build resilience, which is essentially the skill of being able to manage the shame in the moment when it comes up without collapsing or letting it just take us down.

2:03 [SPEAKER_01]: The goal is to recognize that it's there without actively engaging with it. [SPEAKER_01]: We can simply just be aware of its presence. [SPEAKER_01]: So a big part of building shame resilience involves the ability to reach out and speak shame. [SPEAKER_01]: And doing this is the antithesis of what Bernay Brown calls the shame screen.

2:21 [SPEAKER_01]: A shame screen is a psychological defense mechanism. [SPEAKER_01]: Basically it's the invisible wall or mask that you put on to keep people from seeing the real you. [SPEAKER_01]: The easiest way that you can think about this is as a filter for your vulnerability. [SPEAKER_01]: When you operate behind a shame screen, you are essentially curating what you want to let other people see.

2:44 [SPEAKER_01]: You are not being fully authentic because you're afraid that if people saw your true self, your needs, your fears, your mistakes, or your perceived flaws, they would reject you, or abandon you. [SPEAKER_01]: A shame screen is fueled by the belief if they really knew me, they wouldn't like me.

3:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So the screen is protective. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like wearing a suit of armor. [SPEAKER_01]: By keeping people at a distance, then we feel safe from the potential of being seen and then judged or abandoned or ejected. [SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing, there's a really big trade-off. [SPEAKER_01]: The shame screen is also a two-way street.

3:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So while it might keep someone from getting to your vulnerabilities, it also keeps them from truly connecting with you. [SPEAKER_01]: You might be able to get through life like this, but you don't get intimacy because you're only letting people interact with a polished or safe or curated version of yourself.

3:38 [SPEAKER_01]: When I start every cohort of my shame to connection course, the first day, I ask them to let go of whatever the curated version is. [SPEAKER_01]: I ask every man in the group on the first live session to share their story. [SPEAKER_01]: And I always start by saying, I don't want you to share the parts that you think we're going to like.

3:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want you to curate a version of you. [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to share with us who you really are. [SPEAKER_01]: But let us know the really you. [SPEAKER_01]: Imagine standing behind a one-way mirror. [SPEAKER_01]: You can see everyone else clearly, but they cannot see you. [SPEAKER_01]: You might feel safe because they can't get to you, but you're also completely alone behind that glass.

4:19 [SPEAKER_01]: The shame screen is the barrier that prevents you from asking for help. [SPEAKER_01]: To ask for help, you have to admit that you have a need, and admitting you have a need means lowering the screen and letting someone see your vulnerability. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you are walled off behind a shame screen, it makes sense that it would be confusing when you're asked to reach out to others for support.

4:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So how does any of this connect to the men shame group that I mention just a few minutes ago? [SPEAKER_01]: And why is the topic of dependency relevant? [SPEAKER_01]: The men in my group were not just confused about how to ask for their needs to be met, but about what their needs actually are.

4:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Most of them couldn't even distinguish between a need and a want. [SPEAKER_01]: And I realized in that moment that this lack of understanding is the single biggest barrier to reaching out for support, and ultimately the biggest barrier to intimacy, because if we don't know what we need, we can't ask for it.

5:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And if we can't ask, we stay stuck in isolation, and isolation is where shame grows, and where shame lives. [SPEAKER_01]: Shame resilience involves getting out of isolation by connecting with others and asking for help. [SPEAKER_01]: Understanding your own needs makes asking for support easier and less confusing.

5:33 [SPEAKER_01]: So today I want to help you develop an understanding of dependency needs. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to look at why meeting isn't a weakness and how you can actually start identifying and voicing your own needs. [SPEAKER_01]: To understand why we struggle here, I'm going to be using my mentor and teacher P.A.

5:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Melody's model on developmental immaturity as a guide. [SPEAKER_01]: If you have ever worked with a pit-trained therapist or if you've attended any programs at the Meadows, this will likely be familiar and just a refresher for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Our birth, our survival is humans, depends entirely on our caregivers, because we are biologically wired for attachment, it is our nature to be completely dependent.

6:19 [SPEAKER_01]: As infants, we express all of our needs, our hunger, our need for comfort, for safety, without any hesitation. [SPEAKER_01]: When our caregivers consistently and appropriately meet those needs, then we develop a secure foundation. [SPEAKER_01]: However, when childhood trauma or neglect occurs, this natural developmental process is interrupted, and this is a core issue of developmental immaturity.

6:48 [SPEAKER_01]: When a child's needs are ignored or shamed or inconsistently met, they do not learn how to self-south or how to rely in a healthy way on others. [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of developing into a balanced, interdependent adult, they often develop immaturities in how they relate to their needs and wants.

7:08 [SPEAKER_01]: In this area of self-care and interdependence, there are three ways that people get stuck when they miss out on healthy dependency as a child. [SPEAKER_01]: We may become overly dependent and feel like we cannot survive without another person's constant support, approval or direction. [SPEAKER_01]: We might struggle to make decisions alone and often experience a deep sense of helplessness or even panic when not in a relationship or not in a place where we can get that need met from another person.

7:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Overly dependent people rely on others to regulate their emotions and define their sense of self and might feel truly panicked or helpless without a partner or someone else to lean on. [SPEAKER_01]: We may also become needless or wantless. [SPEAKER_01]: This person learned early on that having needs was dangerous, so they disconnected from their internal cues.

8:02 [SPEAKER_01]: These people struggle to identify what they need or want and often feel complete blankness or confusion when they're asked to prioritize themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: And they view having needs at all as a source of stress. [SPEAKER_01]: They truly don't know what they want because they're scared of the disappointment of not getting it.

8:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Or finally, we may become anti-dependent. [SPEAKER_01]: The anti-dependent person maintains a stance of hyper-independence as a defensive wall. [SPEAKER_01]: They view relying on others as weak, or as dangerous or shameful. [SPEAKER_01]: They pride themselves on being self-sufficient. [SPEAKER_01]: and in being the one who takes care of everyone else.

8:42 [SPEAKER_01]: While secretly, likely feeling resentful and lonely, they actively push others away or shut down to avoid the vulnerability of needing support firmly believing that they are the only person that they can safely rely on. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to make sure that I am really clear that regardless of which of those stances you relate to, that you know that you haven't done something wrong or bad.

9:07 [SPEAKER_01]: All of those are survival adaptation, and a survival adaptation is not in any way a character flaw or a weakness. [SPEAKER_01]: If you learned as a child that your needs were ignored, shamed, or even dangerous to express, then you had no option other than to adapt in order to survive. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's important to mention that people who had a similar experience in childhood around dependency will not necessarily have the same dependency stance as adults.

9:36 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, if both were told that they were selfish when they asked for their parents to meet a need, for instance, it could be something really small, like asking for a glass of water before bed, or asking for a snack in between a meal. [SPEAKER_01]: But when this kind of thing happens over and over, it's no longer a small thing.

9:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It becomes something really big, the messages, your needs don't matter. [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, the intention behind this doesn't even make a difference, it doesn't impact the outcome. [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, if one of those two children in that example had a sibling that had a serious illness and constantly needed attention and medical care.

10:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's possible that the parents were overwhelmed and didn't have the bandwidth and emotional resources to be there to meet the needs of the [SPEAKER_01]: healthy child. [SPEAKER_01]: So it doesn't have to be neglect in the context that we often think of when we hear neglect. [SPEAKER_01]: Those parents might be meeting all the child's basic needs.

10:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But they also make it clear that anything beyond that is burdensome. [SPEAKER_01]: and they believe that the other child will understand and the truth is children want to be good. [SPEAKER_01]: They want to make their parents proud. [SPEAKER_01]: They want their parents approval, that's normal.

10:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Because remember, getting approval is necessary for attachment. [SPEAKER_01]: So to that child, this is about survival. [SPEAKER_01]: The child in this example wants to help their parents and so they might become extremely skilled at meeting their own needs and never asking for help. [SPEAKER_01]: Or, that child might grow up to be an adult who is overly dependent, because they are so desperate to find others to repair that wound that they had from childhood.

11:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe if someone else doesn't find them to be a burden. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe if someone else attends to their needs, that would prove that they are in fact important and worthy of love and worthy of care. [SPEAKER_01]: The thing here is that it doesn't work. [SPEAKER_01]: They actually don't end up feeling worthy.

11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: At any point, they continue to engage in this pattern over and over, which often causes problems in relationships and also prevents the person from becoming reliant on themselves to meet the needs that they are able to meet. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, another person who grew up in that same family, [SPEAKER_01]: and have the same experience of the ill sibling and the parents who don't have the extra resources or bandwidth to attend to their needs, that person may grow up to be anti-dependent.

11:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Unlike the other example, the idea of being dependent on others is intolerable. [SPEAKER_01]: The possibility of being ignored or shamed again is too much, it's too scary. [SPEAKER_01]: So they won't take what feels like a risk, and it's a risk to ask for needs to be met. [SPEAKER_01]: Anti-dependency is extremely harmful, however, as I said earlier, the fundamental problem with anti-dependency is that it operates as a defensive wall.

12:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It breeds isolation and loneliness. [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot be fully known if you won't let anyone in. [SPEAKER_01]: So by maintaining that, I don't need anyone's stance or I can meet my own needs. [SPEAKER_01]: You effectively block the feedback loop that is necessary for personal growth.

12:37 [SPEAKER_01]: When you don't allow others to influence you or to support you, [SPEAKER_01]: You remain trapped in your own perspective, repeating the same patterns without the benefit of getting other people's insights. [SPEAKER_01]: And we need other people's insights. [SPEAKER_01]: We need other people.

12:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Anti-dependent people are often over-functioners. [SPEAKER_01]: They take on the weight of everything because they don't trust others to do it right or they feel that asking for help again as a sign of weakness. [SPEAKER_01]: This leads to a quiet and very toxic resentment, which might sound like, why does nobody ever ask if I need help?

13:12 [SPEAKER_01]: The problem is that the anti-dependent person has signaled to the world that they don't need help, so the world stops offering it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's also physically and emotionally exhausting to be anti-dependent when you view reliance as shameful. [SPEAKER_01]: Your nervous system remains stuck in this chronic state of fight or flight or high alert and you're always carrying the full load of your [SPEAKER_01]: at least to irritability.

13:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And it leads to a feeling of just being done with people around you, simply because you're tired of carrying them or you're tired of carrying all the weight. [SPEAKER_01]: Anti-dependency makes it impossible to be comfortable relying on others for anything. [SPEAKER_01]: It denies the reality that humans are wired for connection.

14:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And we are, we are 100% wired for connection. [SPEAKER_01]: And by rejecting the need for others, then you're essentially rejecting the very biological system that keeps us regulated and grounded and honestly that keeps us sane. [SPEAKER_01]: Paradoxically, that tough guy or tough woman persona often keeps people at a distance.

14:25 [SPEAKER_01]: When you never express a need, the people around you, your partner, your friends, your family, your neighbors, your employers or employees, none of them feel like they have a way in. [SPEAKER_01]: They feel unneeded, they feel useless, they feel disconnected. [SPEAKER_01]: They certainly don't feel close to you.

14:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So anti-dependency doesn't just isolate you, it actually hurts the people who care about you. [SPEAKER_01]: It staves them of the chance to participate in your life. [SPEAKER_01]: The bottom line here is that the anti-dependent person isn't actually self-sufficient. [SPEAKER_01]: Here she is self-protected and has learned to mistake isolation for independence.

15:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Healing involves moving toward healthy interdependency, which is the ability to be both self-reliant and comfortable relying on others when necessary. [SPEAKER_01]: For the anti-dependent person, for example, moving out of this stance isn't about becoming weak or helpless, it's about becoming accessible.

15:24 [SPEAKER_01]: To yourself, to your partner, and to the people who can actually help you carry the load. [SPEAKER_01]: The problem with being overdependent is that it keeps a person trapped in a state of immaturity or a rest of development, or stunned it in some way, where they outsource the most critical responsibility of adulthood, which is self-regulation.

15:45 [SPEAKER_01]: While the anti-dependent person fears being seen and therefore walls themselves off, the overdependent person fears being alone, and therefore clings to others to keep their internal world stable. [SPEAKER_01]: This stance creates a complete loss of self-governance. [SPEAKER_01]: The over-dependent person doesn't believe that they can handle their own feelings.

16:06 [SPEAKER_01]: They look to others to do for them what they haven't learned to do for themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: This is problematic because they are constantly at the mercy of someone else's mood or someone else's availability. [SPEAKER_01]: So if their partner for example is happy, then they feel happy.

16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: They become anxious, they may spiral. [SPEAKER_01]: It creates a very fragile existence because they're emotional well-being. [SPEAKER_01]: They're emotional baseline is constantly shifting based on external factors that they are powerless over. [SPEAKER_01]: over dependency forces the other person that they're in a relationship with into a role that they didn't sign up for.

16:48 [SPEAKER_01]: That of the parent or of the regulator. [SPEAKER_01]: They begin to feel burdened or suffocated or resentful because they are now responsible for tuner systems, their own and their partners. [SPEAKER_01]: In a relationship, this often leads to a cycle where the partner will pull away to protect their own sanity, which triggers more panic in the over-dependent person, which causes them to cling tighter.

17:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So paradoxically, being over-dependent makes real connection and intimacy impossible. [SPEAKER_01]: True intimacy requires two distinct, separate, whole people coming together. [SPEAKER_01]: If one person is just merging with the other to survive, they aren't interacting with their partner.

17:34 [SPEAKER_01]: They're essentially using their partner as a crutch, but that's not done with ill intent. [SPEAKER_01]: It's an unconscious process that's happening again as a survival response, but the relationship essentially becomes about meeting rather than relating. [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing about over-dependency is that it breeds helplessness.

17:53 [SPEAKER_01]: When a person habitually relies on others to solve their problems, or to make their decisions, or to help them figure out how they should feel, or sue their anxiety, they never build the muscles of self-reliance. [SPEAKER_01]: They begin to believe the lie that they cannot cope on their own.

18:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And this creates a feedback loop of incompetence, but the thing is they are not incompetent. [SPEAKER_01]: but they really believe that they are. [SPEAKER_01]: But less they do for themselves, the less capable they feel, and the more they believe they need someone else to survive. [SPEAKER_01]: Another major problem with over dependency is that it masks underlying shame.

18:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And in my work, and I think many of you know this, especially with men, this is often the most important thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Many over dependent men act like they are just so loving or they're devoted, but underneath, [SPEAKER_01]: is often unprocessed shame or a deep belief that they are not enough on their own.

18:51 [SPEAKER_01]: The truth is, acting loving or devoted isn't actually authentic. [SPEAKER_01]: because that love is often a demand for reassurance from another person. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like an attempt to borrow self-worth from someone else. [SPEAKER_01]: Without approval from someone else, they don't know who they are, which actually leads to another major problem.

19:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It leads to identity crisis and anxiety. [SPEAKER_01]: Moving out of over-dependency isn't about becoming an island or being anti-dependent, as I talked about a little while ago, anti-dependency is filled with its own problems. [SPEAKER_01]: This is about self-containment, which means learning that they can handle their own feelings, that they can set their own boundaries and make their own decisions, and then, [SPEAKER_01]: From that place of strength, they can choose to connect with others because they want to, not because they need to be saved, not because they need the other person.

19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: They need to learn that it's possible to be a separate, whole person and still be in a deep and loving relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: The final stance, this final sort of immaturity around the topic of dependency, [SPEAKER_01]: is the needless wantless stance. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's perhaps the most deceptive of the three immaturities.

20:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It often masquerades as being easy going or low maintenance. [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone who's needless and wantless, but especially men, often mistake needless wantless behavior for self-sufficiency. [SPEAKER_01]: And that might sound really good. [SPEAKER_01]: But the reality is that it's none of those things.

20:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually a survival strategy that over time has turned into a pretty significant deficit. [SPEAKER_01]: As I said earlier, when someone is needless and wantless, they have effectively turned off their internal signaling system. [SPEAKER_01]: They aren't just ignoring their needs, they have become dissociated from their needs.

20:46 [SPEAKER_01]: The most dangerous aspect of being needless and wantless is that you cannot selectively numb yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: When you train your brain to stop signaling I need this to avoid the pain of disappointment or shame or being rejected, you're also simultaneously turning off the part of your brain that signals I want this.

21:06 [SPEAKER_01]: This creates a significant problem. [SPEAKER_01]: You lose your ability to feel all of the good feelings, the joy, the excitement, the passion. [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't let yourself feel the hunger for your basic needs, then you stop feeling the hunger for the things that make life meaningful.

21:23 [SPEAKER_01]: This stance creates a massive, silent setup for resentment in relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: Because the needless wantless person never expresses a need, they develop this secret and unconscious expectation that they're partner, [SPEAKER_01]: When that person fails to meet the need, because it was never communicated in the first place, the needless whantless person feels deeply hurt or rejected or abandoned.

21:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, if you never have to advocate for a need for yourself, then you never have to do the work of figuring out who you are, which is actually how identity is created. [SPEAKER_01]: Identity is often formed by learning what you want, and what you don't want. [SPEAKER_01]: If someone is needless wantless, they often don't know their own preferences, they don't know their boundaries, they don't know their own values.

22:15 [SPEAKER_01]: They essentially become a chameleon and adapt to whoever is in the room, because they have no core self. [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps the most devastating consequence of being needless wantless is that that person is invisible. [SPEAKER_01]: They cannot connect in a meaningful way with another person, intimacy requires two people.

22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: If you aren't bringing your needs to the table, if you aren't asking for what you need, you aren't actually participating in the relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: You're just accommodating everyone else. [SPEAKER_01]: Your partner can't love you. [SPEAKER_01]: They're only loving the version of you that accommodates them.

22:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And this leads to a profound type of loneliness, even when you're surrounded by people. [SPEAKER_01]: And this stuns growth. [SPEAKER_01]: Conflict is the engine of growth in a relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: When you are needless wantless, you avoid conflict at all costs. [SPEAKER_01]: You think you're being a good boy or a good girl by not making waves.

23:09 [SPEAKER_01]: But the truth is, by avoiding conflict, you are robbing the relationship and yourself of the chance to navigate differences, to set boundaries, and to grow stronger together. [SPEAKER_01]: The needless wantless person often thinks that they're being selfless, but they're actually being self abandoning.

23:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Being needless wantless is not a virtue. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a survival mechanism [SPEAKER_01]: but you're not a child anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: When you refuse to acknowledge what you need, you are not being strong. [SPEAKER_01]: You're being invisible. [SPEAKER_01]: Authenticity requires you to show up with your needs intact so that people can actually meet you and be in relationship with you.

23:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I also want to talk about this stance in the context of self-care. [SPEAKER_01]: For someone's stuck in a needless wantless stance, self-care is not just difficult, but it becomes conceptually impossible. [SPEAKER_01]: Self-care is the foundational responsibility of every adult. [SPEAKER_01]: It is basically the act of parenting yourself.

24:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you operate as needless wantless, you've effectively severed the connection [SPEAKER_01]: because you cannot acknowledge your needs, you can't advocate for them, and then consequently, you can't provide for them. [SPEAKER_01]: This creates a state of chronic deficit in your life.

24:37 [SPEAKER_01]: You run on empty until you inevitably crash or explode or lose it by refusing to acknowledge what you need to function, you are not being tough or low maintenance or easy going. [SPEAKER_01]: You're actually abandoning yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: So to break this cycle, you have to treat your needs, not as once or as luxuries that you can ignore, but as essential, non-negotiable.

25:04 [SPEAKER_01]: These are the things that you require to keep yourself stable and healthy and sane and alive and capable of showing up for the people in your life. [SPEAKER_01]: It's necessary to maintain relationships, to maintain healthy relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: I also want to make sure that I'm being clear when I talk about self-care in this context, I'm not talking about a spa day or going to get your nails done or going out to play nine holes of golf.

25:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about adult competency. [SPEAKER_01]: It's something that you must do to be successful and responsible in life. [SPEAKER_01]: And to get there, we have to learn to distinguish between [SPEAKER_01]: So needs are non-negotiable. [SPEAKER_01]: Needs are required for our physical and our emotional health.

25:54 [SPEAKER_01]: They are the baseline for our survival, for our mind, our body, and our soul. [SPEAKER_01]: If we don't have adequate food, shelter, safety, or emotional nurturing or connection, then we are not able to thrive. [SPEAKER_01]: when we live like that, then we're basically just surviving in a deficit.

26:14 [SPEAKER_01]: In recovery or in our healing, we prioritize our needs first. [SPEAKER_01]: We have to learn to identify them and then communicate them and then ensure that they're met. [SPEAKER_01]: Once are the desires that add flavor to life. [SPEAKER_01]: These can be things like our hobbies, ways that we feel creative, or specific ways that we like to connect with other people.

26:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Wants bring us joy, and then joy brings us hope. [SPEAKER_01]: But here's the critical part. [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot build abundance on a cracked foundation. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you are ignoring your basic needs because you're trying to fill yourself up with wants or vice versa, you're going to be in a cycle of instability.

27:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Both are important, but there is an order of operations and that order is really important. [SPEAKER_01]: Once we have a stable foundation of meeting our needs, we can then expand our capacity to pursue our wants. [SPEAKER_01]: Healing this core issue is a process of reclaiming your voice.

27:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Healthy interdependency is the ability to be both self-reliant and comfortable relying on others. [SPEAKER_01]: And what I mean by that is, it's the ability to be self-reliant when you can be, when you're able to care for yourself and take care of something great, you are. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's also being comfortable relying on another person when you really can't be self-reliant and you don't have what you need in order to be successful.

27:50 [SPEAKER_01]: You can start by asking yourself some of these questions, can I identify my need in the moment? [SPEAKER_01]: For example, can I say something like, I feel overwhelmed right now? [SPEAKER_01]: Can I express it? [SPEAKER_01]: Can I voice my need clearly? [SPEAKER_01]: That might look like I need 10 minutes to reset.

28:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And then ask yourself, can I trust that this need is actually safe? [SPEAKER_01]: Can I trust that it's safe to have this need? [SPEAKER_01]: How we start doing interdependence is by asking these kinds of questions. [SPEAKER_01]: It's by having a strategy and there are some rules that can help us with this.

28:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so there are three rules to help with starting this process of working towards interdependence. [SPEAKER_01]: The first is the do it yourself check. [SPEAKER_01]: This is really for somebody who falls into that overly dependent category. [SPEAKER_01]: If you can take care of the need yourself, do it.

28:53 [SPEAKER_01]: The second rule, this is the resentment check. [SPEAKER_01]: If you are being asked for help, but you know that you'll end up feeling used or feeling angry, say no. [SPEAKER_01]: You are not obligated to overextend yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: And the third is the enabling check. [SPEAKER_01]: If someone asks you for help, but helping them would actually stop them from growing or learning how to take care of themselves to climb.

29:18 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the difference between helping and enabling. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is self-care. [SPEAKER_01]: Every adult is responsible for their own issues. [SPEAKER_01]: We have the right to ask for help, but we do not have the obligation to be the caretaker for everyone else. [SPEAKER_01]: So going back to my men's shame group and perhaps some of you will relate to this, too, as you're listening.

29:40 [SPEAKER_01]: There's often a complete lack of understanding in practical terms how to actually do this. [SPEAKER_01]: So when you need to ask for support, you're essentially asking the other person to see you. [SPEAKER_01]: So don't start with a demand. [SPEAKER_01]: Start with yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: Speak in an eye statement.

29:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So instead of saying something like, you never help me with the house. [SPEAKER_01]: Try saying, I'm feeling overwhelmed and I'd really like help or I need help clearing the kitchen so I can reset. [SPEAKER_01]: When you practice expressing your need clearly without shaming the other person for not already knowing what you need, then you are teaching your nervous system that an is safe to be known and you're moving out of that shame-filled isolation space and into true connection with another person.

30:27 [SPEAKER_01]: If you find yourself stuck in the shame of needing someone, I want you to remember this. [SPEAKER_01]: You are not too much for needing support. [SPEAKER_01]: Your needs are the baseline of your humanity. [SPEAKER_01]: When you choose to be honest about what you need rather than pretending you're fine or demanding that others fix it for you, you are not being weak.

30:45 [SPEAKER_01]: You are practicing truly the most radical act of integrity that I know. [SPEAKER_01]: You are proving that you are a person who is capable of being known. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to remind you that dependency is not a weakness. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a human requirement, and I know for people that have had a very difficult or complex relationship with dependency, this is going to be a hard thing to grasp, because truly you've likely grown up and been existing in the world with a core belief that dependency is weakness.

31:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So this will take a little bit of work. [SPEAKER_01]: Learning to ask for what you need and also learning to give yourself what brings you joy, right, getting your wants met. [SPEAKER_01]: That is the ultimate act of self-care. [SPEAKER_01]: It's essentially moving out of basic survival and moving into authentic relationships.

31:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't realize when putting together the shame-to-connection curriculum that a lack of understanding of dependency needs would make learning about how to reach out and speak shame and ultimately building shame resilience more challenging and confusing. [SPEAKER_01]: So I am so grateful to the men in my group for asking the questions that inspired me to record this podcast today.

31:57 [SPEAKER_01]: By asking for my guidance, you allowed me the opportunity to provide the clarity and understanding needed to continue [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're listening to this for feeling safe enough with me to practice the skill of reaching out and asking for help. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what this entire shame course is about.

32:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine, like the men in my group, many of you listening right now might relate to not knowing what your needs are, or how to move towards interdependence. [SPEAKER_01]: If that's you, I encourage you to find the handout and the worksheet that I am linking in the show notes. [SPEAKER_01]: I created them both to help you do a deeper dive into your own dependency needs.

32:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you'll find them helpful, and I also encourage you to spend some time thinking about who in your life are the safe others that you can practice doing this with. [SPEAKER_01]: You are worthy of connection. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening, see you next time. [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, if you find the podcast helpful, please take a moment to leave a review.

32:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It really does help others who are struggling find their way to helping couples heal. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the Trail Trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

33:20 [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

33:39 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.