110. The Abandonment Wound, Betrayal, and the Road to Healing

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marnie Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcasts was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:10 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Marty. [SPEAKER_01]: Somewhere around last January, I had a couple come on.

1:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Many of you will remember because I got a lot of feedback about this episode, but I had Laura and Scott come on to share their recovery journey with you. [SPEAKER_01]: And that was really a beautiful story of hope about a couple that started out dealing with the devastation of the trail and how they sort of walked through that together to get where they are now.

1:53 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm bringing Scott back today to not just talk about his recovery, but also a very specific topic that Scott had to contend with during his healing over many, many years. [SPEAKER_01]: got in the way of his healing with his wife and impacted Laura quite a bit. [SPEAKER_01]: So let's just dive into it.

2:16 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be talking about abandonment. [SPEAKER_01]: You might hear this as the abandonment wound. [SPEAKER_01]: It's talked about in many different ways, but before I even go into it, let me introduce Scott and say welcome. [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, thank you, Marty. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so glad to be back and first thing I'm going to do is thank you because you helped us be guided through this, how difficult it is, the trail trauma and abandonment are really difficult, mixture.

2:44 [SPEAKER_01]: who very much so. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm ready about to start talking about it, but I want to put it into a context, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to use your story to share about how a band that can show up in someone's life and in their world and in their own addiction. [SPEAKER_01]: But then how that very issue can make healing with a partner that much more difficult.

3:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But before I do that, you know what? [SPEAKER_01]: I want to thank you as well because having a conversation like this is incredibly vulnerable because you are sharing probably the parts of yourself, I imagine that you don't typically go to dinner and talk about over, you know, over, of course, right?

3:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So you're coming into this place and with no other motivation other than to share your story, share your hope and give more opportunity to other people for their own healing. [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's difficult and our process as you know was a really long process and it caused my wife many, many years of having to tolerate and I'm going to use the word figure out, I don't know if I figured this out, Marnie, whatever it was that made a difference, it took a long time.

3:53 [SPEAKER_02]: and it was really painful for my wife and it was really painful for me and if this episode helps someone a few people understand this a little better understand the dynamic. [SPEAKER_02]: This is totally worth it. [SPEAKER_01]: I really do believe in this moment I can say, I know with certainty that this is going to help people because as somebody who deals every single day with betrayal trauma and working with my clients, I hear the abandonment wound come up so often.

4:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And when someone has an abandonment wound, they have to do a lot of work on themselves to heal that. [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much pain. [SPEAKER_01]: but where it gets even more complex is when it shows up in somebody who's betrayed their partner and they need to show up and do the work to help their partner heal, but just their partner's presentation, just the anger and all of that that the partner's dealing with is scary, terrifying, even [SPEAKER_01]: to the person who's caused all that damage and it's very difficult because of that abandonment wound for them to show up and do what's needed.

4:53 [SPEAKER_01]: To heal the good news is Scott has, I'm not going to say he's mastered this. [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's perfect. [SPEAKER_01]: I let him share his story. [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't ever want to put anyone on a pedestal and say this person has achieved the thing. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, [SPEAKER_01]: But I know that Scott, you've worked so hard, you did a really deep dive and it was not easy and you swam through it and you did come to the other side of the pond so.

5:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited to talk about it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, me too. [SPEAKER_01]: So should we just dive in? [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So when people talk about an abandonment wound, it's essentially a trauma-informed fear of being discarded. [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me if you agree, Scott, but I think every human or most humans on some level.

5:40 [SPEAKER_01]: fear of abandonment because it doesn't feel good right if you're in relationship right with another person you're in a relationship or you're in a job and you're like go or you're dating somebody or you have a friendship and they say I don't want to be friends anymore they just goes to you that's always going to be painful right or we all gain safety by co-regulating with others and when relationships end right we have that fear.

6:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then when somebody has experienced abandonment in their childhood, it's more of a pathological fear. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, most people, all humans, as we said, we don't like abandonment. [SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to feel discarded. [SPEAKER_01]: However, for someone who experienced an abandonment wound, then experiencing abandonment in adult relationship is it's about trauma and it's really more pathological and it's when people need help, right?

6:29 [SPEAKER_01]: So typically when you have this wound, your nervous system isn't just worried that your partner [SPEAKER_01]: It's physically an emotionally terror that your foundation will disappear at any moment, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's the deep internal voice that says, if I'm not enough or things get too difficult, I'm going to be replaced or I'm going to be left behind.

6:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have more to say, but let's start there. [SPEAKER_01]: Scott, how does that land for you? [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yeah, it's what it feels like and there's two sides of it. [SPEAKER_02]: There's the part of me that, and I should say, Marny, I never knew I had an abandonment wound until post discovery.

7:13 [SPEAKER_02]: never had any idea. [SPEAKER_02]: I knew my biological father chose to not live with me. [SPEAKER_02]: Never knew I had an abandonment wound and we can talk about that. [SPEAKER_02]: But when I started to feel it, like there's two sides, there my greatest desire is to feel needed, wanted, connected.

7:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And my greatest fear is connection. [SPEAKER_02]: has not worked out in the past. [SPEAKER_02]: So I fear that that relationship is not going to be solid and yet it's what I want the most. [SPEAKER_02]: And so it is this incredible push-pulled dynamic, which showed up all over the place in my relationship.

8:00 [SPEAKER_02]: You remember Laura would describe this awful cycle we had where I was calling. [SPEAKER_02]: I was in the place of, [SPEAKER_02]: needing her to show how much she wanted me. [SPEAKER_02]: In the middle of the trail trauma, right? [SPEAKER_02]: How's that going to work out? [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

8:16 [SPEAKER_01]: We're supposed to be triaging the partner's pain. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm clawing to know that she loves me and wants me. [SPEAKER_02]: And then with her boundaries, it felt like there was a plexiglass wall around her. [SPEAKER_02]: It felt like she was impenetrable.

8:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, that was your experience of her experience, was she setting reasonable, appropriate safety boundaries because of how she had been harmed. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to say right off the bat, that as a therapist, this is a very difficult dynamic for me personally to work with.

8:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason for that, it's because I have so much compassion for both people in this equation, because Scott, you're abandonment and your fear of Laura leaving you and that feeling like if she said a boundary, it's like this wall, right, and you're shut out. [SPEAKER_01]: I get that for her, you reacting that way.

9:13 [SPEAKER_01]: It was awful, [SPEAKER_01]: She needs you to be able to give her space and to acknowledge why she needs that space and why she has the boundary and for you to respect it Not to make it about you. [SPEAKER_01]: So I have tremendous compassion for her what that was like But for you too because you're not choosing to have an abandonment wound and an abandonment wound is probably The hardest most painful thing for a human being to experience in the world because we are wired for attachment [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, and it's so adjacent to betrayal trauma.

9:46 [SPEAKER_02]: They're nearly one and the same. [SPEAKER_02]: So as the cycle would go, I would be clawing. [SPEAKER_02]: Then my needs would not get met. [SPEAKER_02]: So then I would get angry that my needs were not being met. [SPEAKER_02]: And then Laura would have to up her boundaries, where it appeared I was losing her.

10:10 [SPEAKER_02]: And then I would love bomb her to get her back. [SPEAKER_02]: And then the cycle continues. [SPEAKER_01]: Looking back now in hindsight, do you think you really were losing her? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying was she ever thinking about whether or not she would leave. [SPEAKER_01]: I think every betrayed partner does, right?

10:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And he could sort of go with that experience. [SPEAKER_01]: But from a reality perspective, because at the time, you were not operating from reality, you were operating from this lens of an abandonment one. [SPEAKER_01]: So looking back now from a place of reality, and clarity, do you think that you were losing her in reality?

10:44 [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, I wasn't. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's really important to talk about, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Because at the time, the abandonment wound is bigger than reality, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: And we're talking about things that are truly I can say, now, I mean, these were the perceptions of my six-year-old.

11:00 [SPEAKER_02]: That's who was in conversation with my wife. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I watched it happen. [SPEAKER_01]: I watched it happen. [SPEAKER_01]: I watched it happen. [SPEAKER_01]: Which is why I love, love, love talking to you. [SPEAKER_01]: And I love your story because it didn't come easy. [SPEAKER_01]: And you did the work.

11:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And for anybody listening who's relating and saying, oh my God, this is my thing. [SPEAKER_01]: This abandonment has been, is the thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Then it think it's really important that you recognize and think you will hearing Scott's story today, it's not an easy thing to work with.

11:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Not at all, bore both, holy cow. [SPEAKER_02]: My wife should never have been right through our whole marriage. [SPEAKER_02]: You described it just the other day as this abandonment wound being a God-sized hole. [SPEAKER_02]: And that was never Laura's to fill. [SPEAKER_02]: And here I am seeking her to fill this while she's trying to deal with her betrayal trauma wound.

11:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember the first time I talked to you ever. [SPEAKER_01]: I've mentioned this to you, right? [SPEAKER_01]: We've talked to you. [SPEAKER_02]: You have morning. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, about a hundred times. [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember I had talked to Laura first and she gave me the story and it was just she was in so much pain.

12:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I talked to you and your presentation was so different. [SPEAKER_01]: You felt like things were so great, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like you really, and I think a big part of that, by the way, is because you were in recovery, you were sober. [SPEAKER_01]: from acting out, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You were not betraying anymore.

12:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that speaks to sort of that difference in reality. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I talk a lot about partners having two distinct realities. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's an example, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you were coming in like, oh, we're going to do some, let's do some work. [SPEAKER_02]: And I got, I got a jump in, take full ownership here, Marnie.

12:45 [SPEAKER_02]: If you really for a flight back on our relationship, I wasn't sober then. [SPEAKER_02]: I was more sober. [SPEAKER_01]: You thought you were though, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Don't you think you thought you were? [SPEAKER_02]: I do. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, the word that I use all the time is I felt righteous.

13:06 [SPEAKER_02]: I felt righteous. [SPEAKER_02]: I am in a marriage. [SPEAKER_02]: A marriage is supposed to be loving. [SPEAKER_02]: She's supposed to make me feel wanted. [SPEAKER_02]: She's supposed to make me feel whole and I was righteous about it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in order for you to try to fill that God-sized hole, that we just talked about, you were trying to get Laura to do that, and yet Laura was drowning.

13:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. [SPEAKER_02]: in Betrayal trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure. [SPEAKER_01]: She was drowning because of what you had done. [SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing, you couldn't see it because your fear of being left and your need for her to validate you, it was so huge. [SPEAKER_01]: So you'll probably hear me say this a lot today during this conversation, but [SPEAKER_01]: I have immense compassion for those who are struggling with abandonment because nobody asks for that.

14:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody wants to experience what it's like to feel abandoned in a way that as you grow up and you enter adult relationships, you're driven by the need to not be left. [SPEAKER_01]: And when you throw in the trail trauma on top of it, and then you take a couple that are trying to heal, it's like throwing gas on the fire, just, you know, stoking it.

14:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's take a pause and go back a little bit in time. [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to have you share. [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit about your story, just kind of like the broad strokes. [SPEAKER_01]: And then if you can share at what point did the word abandonment and all of this that we're talking about come into play for you like at what point did you even have an awareness of this because I imagine that like you said earlier, you didn't for a while.

14:53 [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't know what was driving this. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so wanting to just kind of share your story. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thanks, Marty. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to pick up on the words you just said this drive to not be left. [SPEAKER_02]: Once I finally decided on some healing as I unpacked my entire life, I realized that everything I had ever done was the proof that I mattered.

15:17 [SPEAKER_02]: everything I'd ever done. [SPEAKER_02]: So I shared the first part. [SPEAKER_02]: When my mom found out that she was pregnant with me, he decided I was not part of his five-year plan. [SPEAKER_02]: So he decided to leave. [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't really know what happened. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know the last time he...

15:35 [SPEAKER_02]: saw me, I think he was in my life, but nobody's ever really filled in what happened between age birth and say three and a half. [SPEAKER_02]: And so at three and a half, my stepfather came into my life. [SPEAKER_02]: He was always dad. [SPEAKER_02]: He was dad. [SPEAKER_02]: He's the one that raised me.

15:55 [SPEAKER_02]: My biological father never got talked about ever, and I realized that my first time hiding, my first time keeping secrets, was that this was my family, and that there was nothing else. [SPEAKER_02]: So I remember being, oh, I don't know, seven years old, and my dad, right? [SPEAKER_02]: My stepdad, which I always called dad, [SPEAKER_02]: He adopted me think I was seven and I remember going in school that day I feel like I had a note course memories at seven or low I remember coming in to school that day and like telling my teacher This is my new name so I had a new middle name.

16:35 [SPEAKER_02]: I had a new last name. [SPEAKER_02]: I really didn't know what to make of that I just did it and so most of my life was just marching on right not paying attention to anything just doing [SPEAKER_02]: So course perfectionism was huge. [SPEAKER_02]: I was good and perfect. [SPEAKER_02]: I was probably the best athlete.

16:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I was if not the best student. [SPEAKER_02]: I was pretty close. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, that continued all the way through college. [SPEAKER_02]: I remember getting into a really good college, and for me, it wasn't good enough. [SPEAKER_02]: I had to attend what I considered the best college.

17:15 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember I did that because I remember what my dad's eyes looked like when we were touring that campus. [SPEAKER_02]: None of this that I know at the time. [SPEAKER_02]: None of this that I know that everything I was doing was [SPEAKER_02]: So external validation became who I was.

17:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Everything that I was came from what people told me I was. [SPEAKER_02]: Or what award I had received or what school I get into. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if my sexuality was normal in high school, felt like it. [SPEAKER_02]: I remember like childhood breakups, like the eighth grade breakups.

17:54 [SPEAKER_02]: way over the top like days of just crying and blubbering. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that's terribly normal. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really know. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, probably drinking more than I should underage and then problematic sexual behaviors really came about in my early 20s.

18:16 [SPEAKER_02]: continued to progress like many do. [SPEAKER_02]: I lost my first marriage to my kids mom because of that because I didn't want to own it at the time. [SPEAKER_02]: Behavior is continued. [SPEAKER_02]: So pornography, emotional affairs, went opportunities for strip clubs for there. [SPEAKER_02]: I would go, lot of fantasy and a lot of lying.

18:45 [SPEAKER_02]: who I was, all of me, was unbelievably scary. [SPEAKER_02]: So I lied a lot, even just in embellishing things, you know, embellishing, little things like I would go for a run for six miles and somebody'd say, hey, what'd you do this morning? [SPEAKER_02]: And I'd say, I ran six and a half miles.

19:08 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that a giant light, but no, I always had to be a little bit better, just a little bit better. [SPEAKER_02]: And so through my relationship with Laura, there were a lot of... [SPEAKER_02]: indicators. [SPEAKER_02]: She had caught me using pornography. [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of indicators of computer use and things like that.

19:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And just a lot that she knew was wrong. [SPEAKER_02]: She would call me out on it. [SPEAKER_02]: I would lie. [SPEAKER_02]: I would push it off, avoid it, whatever it might be. [SPEAKER_01]: Scott, had you told her the truth about why your first marriage ended? [SPEAKER_02]: I did, but not fully.

19:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I told her enough that I could release myself from keeping all the secrets, but not enough so that she would have informed consent. [SPEAKER_02]: So at some point, she, as you remember from the first episode, she discovered that I was having an emotional affair. [SPEAKER_02]: And finally, she had like, I have the data that I can make this one stick.

20:11 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that wasn't the end of it. [SPEAKER_02]: I still really struggled to get sober. [SPEAKER_02]: You remember that I lied through a portion of our early recovery, and then there was a second discovery. [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was really, I didn't even know if it was that point. [SPEAKER_02]: I think the big one is I got a DUI when I was at probably my lowest point.

20:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the last time I drank. [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the time I was like, oh my god, this, I'm a train wreck. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a complete and total train rack. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that was the point that I said things have to change. [SPEAKER_02]: And so one of the first things I did is I said, okay, how can this be?

20:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I've lived this. [SPEAKER_02]: what I thought nearly perfect life, if you don't look at all those other stuff, if you don't look at the train wreck, right, the rest of the scene is really good. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I kind of said, what makes me different? [SPEAKER_02]: And I picked up probably Susan Anderson's book on abandonment.

21:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just started to think about it and read it. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh my god, everything in here. [SPEAKER_02]: I had read the Patrick Carn's books by then. [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, let's call it I dallyed around in recovery a little bit. [SPEAKER_02]: But I hadn't really tried, right?

21:34 [SPEAKER_02]: I did enough so my wife thought I was doing something. [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to ask your question about that until you stumbled upon that book which was sort of the shift for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Can you describe what was going on in the healing or in your attempts to heal with Laura like relationally what was happening and where you're moving forward where you stuck.

21:56 [SPEAKER_02]: So, when I started to, I'm going to call it, I hate this because it was terrible. [SPEAKER_02]: I like titrated off of, I went from bad pornography to not so bad pornography to, this is not really pornography. [SPEAKER_02]: Right, so then when I really started to try not to use pornography and when I stopped drinking and all the sudden I stopped having all the things that were keeping me distant from my real feelings my feelings exploded.

22:33 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: It was really bad. [SPEAKER_02]: Laura was experiencing betrayal trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: I was in the basement just in tears. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't really know why. [SPEAKER_02]: I knew my life was falling apart. [SPEAKER_02]: I knew I was supposed to be doing something different for my wife and I felt absolutely helpless.

22:57 [SPEAKER_02]: just absolutely helpless and it was such a foreign feeling for me. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a guy that gets things done, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I had had success in every area of my life. [SPEAKER_02]: And here I am, having somebody drive me to work. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in all these programs. [SPEAKER_02]: Laura has these needs.

23:18 [SPEAKER_02]: We're trying to do check-ins. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just a total emotional wreck. [SPEAKER_02]: That explains it, I don't know if it does or does it. [SPEAKER_01]: Very much, 100% and that compassion, like my compassion meter, it's like off the charts because, you know, I think of Laura, I think of Mike, I know what she needed.

23:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I know what she needed for me. [SPEAKER_01]: And I also know what you wanted to give her, like I know you. [SPEAKER_01]: And I know, [SPEAKER_01]: how much you love her and that you wanted to heal. [SPEAKER_01]: And I also understand that there was something going on inside of you that made it impossible for you to step outside of yourself, writing your own fear in your own pain in order to come over there and help her.

23:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, the metaphor that you just gave, like she was over here with the trail trumpet, you were in the basement in tears. [SPEAKER_01]: That's like a [SPEAKER_01]: in a relationship trying to heal like the partners upstairs and the one that's heard her really needs to be there with her or with him, triaging, you know, helping in whatever way supporting, right?

24:19 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what's needed. [SPEAKER_01]: If any relationship if there's a rupture, you have to heal it and usually the healing starts at least with the person that caused the rupture, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But in this situation, you've got that person who's been hurt and then the other person is down in the basement, crying.

24:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And probably in that moment, not crying about the pain that their partner is in. [SPEAKER_01]: Not that you didn't care about it, but I make up that it's more about the terror of what's going to happen to you. [SPEAKER_02]: It's the terror, and this is really settling in with me like in this moment.

24:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Not only the terror, also the word I use, the helplessness. [SPEAKER_02]: the helplessness of I can't find it within me to help her. [SPEAKER_02]: And it was the first time that I experienced like whatever you want to call it, the self-worth, the ego, the god-center, or whatever we want to name it, I realized that mine was empty.

25:16 [SPEAKER_02]: My tank was empty, my ability to [SPEAKER_02]: self-south, my ability to navigate my emotional system, my ability to esteem myself was like zero. [SPEAKER_02]: I had always depended on things and my wife and all these other things and now they didn't exist. [SPEAKER_02]: There was nobody patting me on the back morning.

25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, at the heart of every single abandonment wound, you tell me if you resonate with this guy, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a distortion in how the person views themselves in relation to their partner. [SPEAKER_01]: So they often subconsciously believe. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, that's important subconscious because it's not like you said before, you were walking around and you weren't aware of any of this.

26:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You weren't walking around as a man saying, I'm a man with an abandonment wound, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And as such, it's impacting my relationship my partner in this way. [SPEAKER_01]: So they often subconsciously believe that their value is tied to being chosen or tied to achieving something or performing in some way, right?

26:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Or if they really knew my flaws that they would leave or unreplaceable, all of those things are sort of what the core beliefs are of the person who has that abandonment. [SPEAKER_01]: Does that sound resonant for you? [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the most [SPEAKER_02]: is to truly understand the words.

26:44 [SPEAKER_02]: behind what's going on for you. [SPEAKER_02]: My words, my core emotional wounds are unwanted. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't matter, and I'm not good enough. [SPEAKER_02]: And I can feel still to this day. [SPEAKER_02]: Any of those things? [SPEAKER_02]: And the snap of a finger. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I always know that about myself.

27:05 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm okay with that. [SPEAKER_02]: I understand that I can have those feelings. [SPEAKER_02]: There's another part that sort of connects to what you were saying. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a rejection detector. [SPEAKER_02]: It's how I walked around life. [SPEAKER_02]: And this really complicated the relationship.

27:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I would know every moment where my wife didn't want me. [SPEAKER_02]: I would know every moment where it felt like she was rejecting me. [SPEAKER_02]: I would know every moment where I thought I didn't matter to her. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this could be as simple as, hey, honey, at the grocery store today, could you grab me a bag of apples, and I look in the drawer two hours later, no apples.

27:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And here goes the next three days. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, it doesn't matter if the reality is that she ends up with a migraine headache and was under threat like on to the covers all afternoon or if she had a client that was in crisis she's actually allowed to forget even and she's allowed to forget right and so what detector I didn't have because the rejection detector is what kept me safe.

28:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I always think of it as like a radar my little personal radar is looking around keeping me safe making sure that I'm not going to get rejected again. [SPEAKER_02]: So, I really did this. [SPEAKER_02]: I tried to like re-tune this little radar and I think you helped me with this. [SPEAKER_02]: Like Scott, let's start looking for the places where you do matter and where you are loved and where you are wanted and so I really tried to do that and they were all over the place.

28:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just going to say there was a lot of evidence of that. [SPEAKER_02]: tons of evidence of that. [SPEAKER_02]: But I couldn't see it. [SPEAKER_02]: I was only looking for the other stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: And just a little side story at some point Laura bought me this little, this little sign.

29:04 [SPEAKER_02]: And it said, I freaking love you. [SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, in the times that you can't remember this, just put it up on your shelf. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't always give you this. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't. [SPEAKER_02]: And when you forget, just look at it. [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know how healthy that is, Marny, but it was so bad, right?

29:25 [SPEAKER_02]: It was so bad that she needed to get a sign, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Cause she couldn't always say it. [SPEAKER_02]: She couldn't. [SPEAKER_02]: She didn't always feel that way. [SPEAKER_02]: She's dealing with betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a really interesting dynamic here that I want to mention, which is we're talking about your abandonment wound, which is something that didn't come from the betrayal back for you with something that was established at a young age, right in childhood.

29:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to say that every betrayed partner, usually, or I should say almost every betrayed partner, at least the [SPEAKER_01]: have an abandonment wound that shows up specifically as a result of the betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: So for the betrayed partner, this wound is almost always active because the betrayal itself was a form of abandonment, right?

30:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It was the choosing of another person or another thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Something else was chosen over them. [SPEAKER_01]: So it really does confirm that fear of [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not chosen. [SPEAKER_01]: So now you have somebody who's had a long standing abandonment wound, right? [SPEAKER_01]: With terror of being left or discarded or not chosen.

30:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And then that person causes serious damage and harm to another person who now is terrified that they're going to be left because they were essentially abandoned during all of the time that the acting out in the secret basement was a secret. [SPEAKER_02]: And they're still being abandoned.

30:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and so now they're being, well, and Betray partners can be abandoned and recovery by for many different reasons. [SPEAKER_01]: One should be that the person's continuing to act out, the other is they can be refusing to go to treatment. [SPEAKER_01]: Another is ongoing lies, even if they're quote-unquote small lies, all of these things.

31:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're dealing with a situation where the Betrayer is someone with a major really [SPEAKER_01]: the energy and the relationship and the needs and the need for attention and validation, bringing it back to themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, once again, the betrayed partner is left feeling, I am sitting here in my moment of need and I am continuing to be abandoned.

31:26 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not showing up for me. [SPEAKER_01]: You are completely consumed with you and your fears. [SPEAKER_01]: And many partners end up saying that now I have to take care of that. [SPEAKER_01]: I do love you in your in pain. [SPEAKER_01]: And again, for all different reasons, some partners choose to end up caring for their partner who calls them pain.

31:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think then part of their healing or their journey becomes learning how to stop doing that to allow their partner to heal. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Marny, we hear this all the time when partners try to share their experience and then all the sudden it becomes all about the betrayer. [SPEAKER_02]: All the sudden it's all about his wounds, his needs.

32:06 [SPEAKER_02]: Or hers. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so, you know, I started playing around with abandonment. [SPEAKER_02]: I started thinking maybe I need to go find my biological father, maybe some magical things going to happen, and I'm going to feel wanted. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, turns out, again, nobody would really tell me.

32:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And this went on like, months, months and months. [SPEAKER_01]: And nobody would really... Did you know your father's name? [SPEAKER_02]: I did. [SPEAKER_02]: I did. [SPEAKER_02]: And I searched him and I really couldn't figure anything out. [SPEAKER_02]: And then finally, my wife actually had the information through back channels.

32:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember on Christmas Eve, she said, oh my God, I'm not supposed to be the person to tell you this, but your father had passed away about seven years ago. [SPEAKER_02]: So nobody ever told me that. [SPEAKER_02]: So ultimately, I sort of, man, you're shaking the cobwebs here, Monty.

33:07 [SPEAKER_02]: So ultimately, I looked at his obituary and I found a contact number and I ended up getting in touch with, I guess a cousin and I never expected them to know who I was, [SPEAKER_02]: and i tried to explain it and they were like oh my god is this got and i said it is now like oh my god we've all wondered what's happened and the rest of the day my phone just lit up with all these people [SPEAKER_02]: that I never knew who they were.

33:42 [SPEAKER_02]: It was really weird. [SPEAKER_02]: It was really weird to think that there's this whole other family that knew about me and had followed me and knew I was in the military and it was really odd. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know what to make a bit today. [SPEAKER_02]: I did go down and visit with them.

34:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what I wanted out of that. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: I think I got something from it. [SPEAKER_02]: I never have continued that connection, but it was worthwhile. [SPEAKER_02]: There were things that, I don't know, just connected for me, connected with who I am.

34:15 [SPEAKER_02]: So then there's back to the recovery piece. [SPEAKER_02]: So at the same time, I was trying to get into it and, you know, so much of my life had been about perfectionism, so everything was hard, like even to 12 step work, name your character flaws. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want there to be any character flaws.

34:35 [SPEAKER_02]: This makes me really uncomfortable. [SPEAKER_02]: So then there's all the unpacking of emotional abuse, controlling behaviors, [SPEAKER_02]: anger. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and my wife always knew me as a really calm, gentle, someone that would have no anxiety, and then after discovery, she's like, I don't know this person.

35:00 [SPEAKER_02]: I've never known anger. [SPEAKER_02]: I've never known, meanness. [SPEAKER_02]: I've never known anxiety. [SPEAKER_02]: I've never known him to be controlling. [SPEAKER_02]: I've never [SPEAKER_01]: This is such a huge core wound for a betrayed partner because not only do they find out new information that they didn't know before about behavior that was happening, but then exactly what you're saying is true, all of a sudden they're finding out that they don't know the person that they thought they were an relationship with, right, because when people do give up an addiction, right, or they stop acting out.

35:35 [SPEAKER_01]: feelings, lots of feelings come out without having a way to cope, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have a cope. [SPEAKER_01]: And so now all the anxieties coming in the rage and all of that unprocessed trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: So a partner's left feeling like I just found all this stuff out, but on top of that, I don't even know who I'm married to.

35:52 [SPEAKER_02]: totally agree and this took so long and you know how long this took it's an unfolding process and it's why I changed careers because of how long I made Laura tolerate that was not okay so all this unfolding of okay entitlement okay I'm entitled tell me about it what does it mean how do I stop being it [SPEAKER_02]: Where did I get entitlement from?

36:20 [SPEAKER_02]: This really doesn't feel good. [SPEAKER_02]: Are you really trying to say that I've walked through life thinking I matter more? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God, that feels uncomfortable. [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, I need to own it. [SPEAKER_02]: I've done that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I'm controlling, right?

36:34 [SPEAKER_02]: All these things that I had to unpack values work. [SPEAKER_02]: Just learn and how to regulate my emotions, doing breath work, learning what these emotions are. [SPEAKER_02]: feeling them, learning how to process them, was such a long process. [SPEAKER_01]: And while you were in the midst of doing all of that deep internal work, what was happening with your relationship and that healing.

37:00 [SPEAKER_02]: How about fits and starts? [SPEAKER_02]: How about roller coaster? [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes good, sometimes awful. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Laura and I will always say it was never all bad. [SPEAKER_02]: We really adore each other. [SPEAKER_02]: we really have fun together. [SPEAKER_02]: And there were times we really didn't.

37:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And there were times that we could not see eye to eye for three days. [SPEAKER_02]: And then we would repair and then a couple months later that same disruption might have been two days. [SPEAKER_02]: And then a few months later it might be one day and the repairs became shorter and better.

37:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And the length of time in between became longer. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: lot of roller coasters. [SPEAKER_01]: So your level of tolerance, your ability to tolerate discomfort, played a huge role here, the more you were able to find ways to manage your discomfort. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think and tell me if I'm wrong that what happened is you suddenly never got uncomfortable, but it's that when you did, you had ways to manage it so that you didn't [SPEAKER_01]: lose it right or you'd indistence yourself or become unrelational and you managed a difference you can continue to stay and be present and show up.

38:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes and it didn't feel as bright and shiny as you just shared. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes and I wasn't always great at it. [SPEAKER_02]: Here's one really important part and as you were sharing your window of tolerance was growing your ability to stay regulated was growing. [SPEAKER_02]: It was, and I was getting better at the practice of emotional intelligence, probably the most important thing was to separate Laura from the abandonment wound.

38:48 [SPEAKER_02]: I remember Laura saying, at one point she said, why do you think this of me? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't even remember what the conversation was, but something happened and I was portraying her as being mean to me. [SPEAKER_02]: And she's like, why would you think that of me? [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think I'm a mean person?

39:11 [SPEAKER_02]: and like my head spun around like four times, like why in this moment do I think she's gone from the kind loving person she is to this she double and it wasn't happening but my perception was that. [SPEAKER_02]: So the more I could begin to separate my abandonment from Laura and start to recognize [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, I am still perceiving her as being mean.

39:45 [SPEAKER_02]: That was a really foggy image, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And could I fine tune that and better see my wife as somebody that's not mean? [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody that is kind and generous and in pain. [SPEAKER_02]: And not the person that thinks I'm not good enough or that I don't matter or that I'm unwanted.

40:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a hugely important thing that you brought up to separated, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: I help clients without even outside a betrayal trauma when client is depressed, for instance. [SPEAKER_01]: They feel like that defines them. [SPEAKER_01]: They become defined by the depression.

40:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I help to externalize the depression. [SPEAKER_01]: OK, let's move the depression out. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's externalize the depression and say, OK, that's here. [SPEAKER_01]: But then there's also all of you. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not all of this. [SPEAKER_01]: And in that situation you just described, [SPEAKER_01]: have abandonment but Laura is not, she's not necessarily doing that and I'm curious about something else that probably doesn't get talked about very often.

40:48 [SPEAKER_01]: What was the impact of this issue on the therapy, even the couple's work? [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, for somebody who has this abandonment wound and who has this perfectionism and wants to be the best and wants to do it right and all of these things, but then they find themselves, let's say in the course of therapy, being told [SPEAKER_01]: you've got issues.

41:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Or I mean, it's usually not said like that, but you're not being told you're perfect and you're not getting all of this adulation and you're having to take responsibility and accountability. [SPEAKER_01]: So in the earlier stages for you, I'm wondering what that was like through even in the therapy.

41:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh god, early middle late, count them all. [SPEAKER_02]: I felt incredibly unseen. [SPEAKER_02]: I felt ganged up on. [SPEAKER_02]: I felt like it was 211 and I've got to say my disclaimer, for those who are abandoned and you're feeling unseen, unheard, don't call your therapist and schedule an individual session with them.

41:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So you can set them straight, because that's what I did. [SPEAKER_01]: He did. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I know I did. [SPEAKER_02]: The feelings were so big and I felt like I needed to explain to you, but you're not getting it like she's not loving me. [SPEAKER_02]: This is what I'm going through and I don't know what helps in that trust the process.

42:12 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not your therapist job. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not your partner's job to make you feel seen wanted and like you matter. [SPEAKER_02]: It's our job. [SPEAKER_02]: It always has been and for those with a giant abandonment wound. [SPEAKER_02]: It's really hard. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so, so hard.

42:32 [SPEAKER_01]: At an abandonment wound, it's not always, I always give this example. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not necessarily what happened to Annie, little orphan Annie, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Where her parents left her on the doorstep of an orphanage. [SPEAKER_01]: It often happens in homes where the resources are limited or there could be an unhealthy sibling, and on a healthy parent, there could be, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, a lot of financial problems where you've got two parents that are working two jobs to put food on the table.

42:59 [SPEAKER_01]: But the reason doesn't actually matter from the perspective of the person who feels the abandonment. [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to say that because a lot of people I think very much relate to feeling abandoned, but what I see is often people relate to the feeling. [SPEAKER_01]: But then say, but I have no reason to feel that way.

43:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody abandoned me. [SPEAKER_01]: I had a great childhood. [SPEAKER_01]: I was very loved. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's very hard to understand it. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's about really being willing to, you said earlier like wipe away the cobwebs and really get deep into it and look at what happened not even the intention.

43:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you have that abandonment, it comes from somewhere. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I was that person. [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, I had shame in thinking, how could I even think this? [SPEAKER_02]: I had parents who cared and loved me. [SPEAKER_02]: I never wanted for anything. [SPEAKER_02]: But when the plate stopped spinning, when I was 50 years old, there was no denying what was there.

43:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So you started talking a few minutes ago about it sounds to me like one of the ways that you started to heal this relationally was sort of separating Laura recognizing that maybe you were seeing her through the lens of your abandonment and you weren't seeing her for really who she was and what she wasn't was not doing.

44:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So can you share a little bit about that and maybe some of the other pieces that helped you move from relationally not being able to repair right [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this, I say to everyone, I meet who's in this healing. [SPEAKER_02]: We often, as practitioners, partners, the betrayers, we talk about the work.

44:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And we think about the work as the 12-step meetings and listening to the podcast and going to therapy or coaching or whatever it is. [SPEAKER_02]: it is so not that it is so not that that is where I got my nuggets [SPEAKER_02]: of try to grab onto something that would help me do something a little bit different.

45:07 [SPEAKER_02]: The work that helped me was my quiet moments. [SPEAKER_02]: The work that helped me was going on really long runs, figuring myself out, figuring out how do I help myself know that I'm at or, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I go back to those three core emotional wounds. [SPEAKER_02]: This is what needed to be healed.

45:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I had to somehow figure out how to know within myself that I'm wanted. [SPEAKER_02]: I had to figure out how to know within myself that I'm good enough, and then I don't have to prove it, and that I matter just by being me. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I can't, well, I did have one coach where I would just sit there and we'd look at each other, and she'd say you matter, and I'd repeat you matter, and I would tap my chest and [SPEAKER_02]: I had to teach myself something that my body didn't understand, and that for the most part can't be done by listening to a podcast, it can't be done by sitting in a therapy session.

46:07 [SPEAKER_02]: It can only be done in my quiet moments with myself when I felt the feeling of a unwanted. [SPEAKER_02]: experiencing it. [SPEAKER_02]: For me, I've identified when that feeling comes. [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like five arrows through my heart. [SPEAKER_02]: I can look down. [SPEAKER_02]: I can notice, hey, here's my five arrows in my heart.

46:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I need to do something right now, or I'm going to blow up my relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I have to feel it. [SPEAKER_02]: I have to sit and reframe it. [SPEAKER_02]: I have to understand all the other places [SPEAKER_02]: I have to do some breath work, you know, all the things I have to splash cold water on my face.

46:50 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was really teaching myself something that my body never understood. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I also did an inner child, family of origin intensive that helped me understand it better. [SPEAKER_02]: I really connect with my probably five-year-old. [SPEAKER_02]: I really connect. [SPEAKER_02]: He sits with me all the time.

47:08 [SPEAKER_02]: He's in a little red chair next to me right now. [SPEAKER_02]: And I really connect with him because I think his fears are my fears. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm here to put my arm around him when he needs me, to reassure him when he needs me. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what you wanted Laura to do for a long time.

47:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Totally. [SPEAKER_01]: So this is the healing. [SPEAKER_01]: I really want people to hear that that you went from wanting another person to put their arms around you and do that for you to now you being able to do that for you. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you for saying that. [SPEAKER_02]: Right, the now 57 year old, the functional adult being able to take care of that five year old who's sitting in the little red chair next to me.

47:52 [SPEAKER_02]: He's got on certainty. [SPEAKER_02]: He's got uncertainty of why he matters and why he's loved and why he's wanted or if he is, he still has a ton of uncertainty. [SPEAKER_02]: So I've got to help him gain certainty. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I had no idea. [SPEAKER_02]: I remember Laura hitting me with that concept.

48:15 [SPEAKER_02]: You matter just because you are and I'm like, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because if you were a perfectionist and you grew up, you had to go to the best school and get the best group and be the best athlete. [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, if you're like, that doesn't make any sense at all and just worthy because yeah, I matter because what I can prove right and that whole statement of you matter because you are like again, another reason why my head would spin around three times like, I don't know what you're talking about.

48:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, Scott, I don't think I've ever said this to you, but it just came to me, and it's true, you've always been likable. [SPEAKER_01]: I've always liked you, but I have to tell you, yeah, nothing you need me to like you, but what I wanted to say was that stepping into this authentic place, this authentic part of yourself, like being you, not curating yourself, like according to what people want to hear, being honest, being vulnerable, not being perfect, all of that actually makes you so likable.

49:13 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like you're your most likable version, right, being this Scott, who's done all this work, and has ultimately gone to a place where you can tell that small part inside of you, like you matter. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for saying all that, Marny, and [SPEAKER_02]: One of the greatest gifts I was ever given is I did some values work.

49:37 [SPEAKER_02]: This is actually really late in my recovery. [SPEAKER_02]: And so when I grew up, my stepdad was a tough guy. [SPEAKER_02]: So to matter to that guy, I thought I needed to be tough. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I played football, I played rugby, I went in the military, and it never felt right and I never understood.

49:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I loved that I was in the military very proud of my service. [SPEAKER_02]: I loved playing football, I loved playing rugby. [SPEAKER_02]: But I learned something different later. [SPEAKER_02]: As I did this value's work, the word gentle just kept popping off the page and I'm like why does this word keep jumping off the page and I kept circling it and circling it.

50:22 [SPEAKER_02]: like this doesn't feel right and what I finally realized is that I had been trying to put a square peg into a round hole in my entire life. [SPEAKER_02]: And when the square peg finally found the square hole, I am a gentle human. [SPEAKER_02]: I was a really sensitive kid and I spent 45 years not being that.

50:45 [SPEAKER_02]: I am a gentle human. [SPEAKER_02]: And when I started being a gentle human, everything changed. [SPEAKER_02]: My anxiety went away. [SPEAKER_02]: My allergies nearly went away. [SPEAKER_02]: I stopped biting my nails. [SPEAKER_02]: But insane. [SPEAKER_01]: What I heard you just say is that you spent your life coming back home to yourself.

51:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Like you said that to you were as a kid, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You were gentle, sensitive. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you thought you had to be a certain way and you spent your life in service of that of being that way. [SPEAKER_01]: And your recovery, this healing, all of this has been about you coming home to who you are, to who you want to be, to what feels like you.

51:31 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I say it a little bit differently on purpose recovery is about stopping being who you're not. [SPEAKER_01]: I love that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I was not a perfectionist. [SPEAKER_02]: It was all these things I was trying to be. [SPEAKER_01]: I was just thinking about how confusing and complex this is because when there's been discovery and then the relationship blows up and the partner's world shatters, often the partner now is looking at their partner as being a monster, oftentimes, or I've heard probably from more partners than I have not, like I think my husband might be a sociopath, right?

52:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Like really thinking there's no way [SPEAKER_01]: that my husband could be normal and do this. [SPEAKER_01]: And so what's interesting is that for a big period of time, the fury and anger that the partners feeling and that they're putting out their into the world and the things that they're saying to their partner, that is confirming for that person, that they're not good.

52:29 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not whole. [SPEAKER_01]: All of these things put up the same time. [SPEAKER_01]: I hope this is making sense. [SPEAKER_01]: That person, the one who's either the added to the one who's caused the betrayal, [SPEAKER_01]: Even in the face of hearing, you are this. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

52:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's fascinating that you have to stop looking at yourself as being the sum of the worst thing that you've ever done. [SPEAKER_01]: Even when you might be hearing that all the time from the person that you heard. [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a hard dynamic to manage. [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely, super hard.

53:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And this can help some people. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it helped me a little bit recognizing that with abandonment, our greatest fear has already occurred. [SPEAKER_02]: It's already happened. [SPEAKER_02]: My biggest fear that I would be left by my attachment partner. [SPEAKER_02]: I've already experienced it.

53:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really, really, really good reminder. [SPEAKER_01]: Scott, I want to be mindful of the time. [SPEAKER_01]: I know we've been talking for a while and I feel like we continue to talk. [SPEAKER_01]: It's been amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: There was one thing that I wanted to sort of put out there as a last thought and then I would love to give you the opportunity to share anything on your heart that you feel might be helpful to somebody out there listening who struggled with what you've struggled with.

53:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But what I wanted to say is that the goal of healing this, right, really doing the work around the abandonment wound, the goal is not to stop being afraid of loss because as we've started at the very beginning, I actually think most human beings are afraid of loss, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But it's to learn how to self-regulate so that the fear does not hijack your entire life or your [SPEAKER_01]: I am in danger, right?

54:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I am in danger of being left, or I'm in danger of being abandoned, to I am capable of surviving, even if things are difficult, and even if I am left. [SPEAKER_01]: And if I'm left, it's not because I am not worthy. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as adults, we can't be abandoned, right?

54:40 [SPEAKER_02]: We can't actually take care of ourselves. [SPEAKER_02]: Marnie, it's crazy. [SPEAKER_02]: This happened recently. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember. [SPEAKER_02]: I shared this with you. [SPEAKER_02]: Laura was going up to visit family like two hours away and she was supposed to be home for dinner.

54:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And I had a crazy busy day. [SPEAKER_02]: This is like a month ago, right? [SPEAKER_02]: It was like a month ago. [SPEAKER_02]: And so she messaged me and she said, hey, I think I'm just going to stay, things are going late. [SPEAKER_02]: Wish, here it comes. [SPEAKER_02]: First thing that came to mind was, oh my god, how am I going to eat?

55:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Ridiculous, right, you don't have to cook or get food right, right, but that's the first thing. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I'm like, okay, I feel the wish I looked down. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, check. [SPEAKER_02]: There's the five arrows. [SPEAKER_02]: Let me go to my big three. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

55:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm feeling unwanted right here. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Let me check in with that. [SPEAKER_02]: This is my abandonment. [SPEAKER_02]: I walked over to the refrigerator. [SPEAKER_02]: Look at that! [SPEAKER_02]: There's food, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Let me look in my checkbook.

55:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I have money to buy food. [SPEAKER_02]: We just gotta help ourselves. [SPEAKER_02]: Gotta help ourselves reframe to the present. [SPEAKER_01]: right, reorienting and reframing to the present and this podcast and others like this in books and all of this is important in helping you, whoever you are out there who's listening and what you did Scott is developing the awareness because without like you said earlier you didn't know you were moving through the world for a long time without knowing.

56:12 [SPEAKER_01]: about your abandonment wound and when we don't know we just keep engaging in the same patterns over and over and we don't even realize how destructive it is, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And we're just we continue to do it and over and over and over again. [SPEAKER_01]: But then we find out we learn and we have the awareness and that is the place from which we can make massive change.

56:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And is it fair to say Scott that in your life and over the course of these last years that you've been in recovery that you've [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so massive change is possible and it's probable when you do the work and when you peel back the layers and you're willing as you said earlier to be uncomfortable.

56:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Can I add one more thing, Marnie? [SPEAKER_02]: Please. [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, this is only hindsight because I didn't do it until later in recovery. [SPEAKER_02]: Just pay attention to what's in the mirror. [SPEAKER_02]: Just pay attention to what's in the mirror. [SPEAKER_02]: This is so painful and when you're dealing with abandonment.

57:12 [SPEAKER_02]: it's a really helpless feeling. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really young feeling. [SPEAKER_02]: And so you want others, you want your therapist to fix it, you want your coach to fix it, you want your wife to fix it. [SPEAKER_02]: And when we want and they don't then we blame. [SPEAKER_02]: So let's just keep paying attention to what's in the mirror.

57:36 [SPEAKER_02]: And let's keep paying attention to what can I do? [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe this actually is all my fault, right? [SPEAKER_02]: It mainly was mine, and I wanted Laura to keep sharing in this. [SPEAKER_02]: It was so painful for me to think, maybe all the relational dynamics that are going on here, are all my fault.

57:57 [SPEAKER_02]: It was hard, and the more we can accept the responsibility, just keep looking at what's in the mirror, keep doing the work. [SPEAKER_02]: If somebody says, hey, I wonder if you're entitled, go back to your desk, figure out what entitlement is, read a book, [SPEAKER_02]: talk to people about it and understand it for yourself and I think the biggest piece is being able to look in the mirror and seeing a person who should be wanted.

58:23 [SPEAKER_02]: Being able to look in the mirror and does matter and being able to look in the mirror and seeing someone that is enough. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And look at what happened in your life and in your relationship when you were willing to look in the mirror and you've stopped expecting and hoping and wanting somebody else to fill that God-sized hole.

58:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, can you say in a sentence what your relationship is like today? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, it's joyful. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not perfect. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to say any relationship is perfect. [SPEAKER_02]: I will still have abandonment triggers from time to time. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty aware.

59:02 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember the last time that it affected our relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: usually I'll tell Laura and she'll have a chuckle about how something she did made me feel unwanted. [SPEAKER_02]: I can usually handle it and I don't think Laura experiences much of betrayal trauma triggers.

59:20 [SPEAKER_02]: We have a pretty joyful life, but we're both pretty in tune to it. [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, we're in this field, so we're both pretty in tune to each other. [SPEAKER_02]: But we're joyful. [SPEAKER_01]: you are joyful, and I know that. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is why I do the work that I do.

59:36 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people often ask me, why do I do this? [SPEAKER_01]: This has got to be so painful, and it is painful. [SPEAKER_01]: What I do in my life, my profession, is I walk through pain with people. [SPEAKER_01]: But the reason I do it is because [SPEAKER_01]: to see people live joyful lives and get back to themselves and learn to love themselves.

59:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like to say that term like come home to themselves and I feel like you did that, Scott. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like that's exactly what you did. [SPEAKER_01]: You came back to that gentle five-year-old. [SPEAKER_01]: That is a gift. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the gift that comes from the mess and the horror of addiction and betrayal.

1:00:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to have to sugarcoat it's awful, but the gifts can be [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Stop being who we're not. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a great way to end the episode. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And Marty, I just want to give a last thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, there's thanks all over the place for the betrayal trauma healing.

1:00:32 [SPEAKER_02]: You were so instrumental in our couples healing. [SPEAKER_02]: I want to thank you personally for having the compassion for me and for holding boundaries that I really [SPEAKER_02]: And for pointing out the pieces where I wasn't showing up right, so thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: You're welcome.

1:00:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for not leaving. [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to. [SPEAKER_01]: I know you did, but you didn't and thank you and and by the way, I had to take the chance that you might. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't like that. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want people to leave. [SPEAKER_01]: I want people to stay and I want people to grow, but I appreciate that you stuck around.

1:01:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is a great way to end just keep working. [SPEAKER_02]: You will stumble, you will fall, you will have failures in your recovery. [SPEAKER_02]: Just keep figuring it out. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that song, I get knocked out, but I get up again. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I think about.

1:01:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that song, and I think that that should be a mantra. [SPEAKER_01]: For any men who are struggling out there with abandoned in-issues having trouble healing your relationships because those dynamics are getting in the way Scott is a wonderful coach. [SPEAKER_01]: I could not recommend him highly enough, and I will put his contact information in the show notes, but Scott, do you want to just quickly offer any email address or a website of people [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sure.

1:01:51 [SPEAKER_02]: So my business is tried in healing. [SPEAKER_02]: So tried in healing.com. [SPEAKER_02]: Scott at tried in healing.com. [SPEAKER_02]: Keep it simple and easy. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I thank you so much for giving me the time today. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, Marnie. [SPEAKER_02]: Always good seeing you.

1:02:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that you've found this conversation as meaningful as I did. [SPEAKER_01]: And I look forward to coming back soon and talking about something else that could be helpful on your journey of recovery. [SPEAKER_01]: Take care.

1:02:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 5662-379-4325.

1:02:40 [SPEAKER_00]: are help as available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

1:02:59 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.