112. The First Glance vs. The Second Look: Objectification and Rebuilding Visual Safety

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couple's heel podcast was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Huel, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Huel. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:10 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here at podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone, welcome back to the helping couples here at podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Marty. [SPEAKER_01]: Picture this!

1:33 [SPEAKER_01]: You're out to dinner with your partner. [SPEAKER_01]: It's supposed to be a relaxing evening, a chance to connect, but then somebody walks by your table, or maybe it's just the server coming over to take your order. [SPEAKER_01]: And in a fraction of a second, you see it. [SPEAKER_01]: You see your partner's eyes, shift, track, and linger.

1:53 [SPEAKER_01]: instantly your stomach drops and your heart rate spikes. [SPEAKER_01]: The relaxing evening is over in a second and it's been replaced by a flood of anxiety, panic, and an overwhelming sense of danger. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're brave enough to bring it up to your partner, if you say were you looking at her or were you looking at him or why are you staring at him?

2:14 [SPEAKER_01]: You probably already know the script that follows. [SPEAKER_01]: I was just looking. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do anything wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: I have eyes, don't I? [SPEAKER_01]: You're being crazy. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't even look around the room without you getting triggered. [SPEAKER_01]: If you have been on the receiving end of those words after experiencing betrayal in your relationship, I want you to listen very carefully to me right now.

2:35 [SPEAKER_01]: You are not crazy. [SPEAKER_01]: You are not controlling. [SPEAKER_01]: There is nothing wrong with you, and you are not experiencing jealousy. [SPEAKER_01]: Today, I'm doing a deep dive into the profound difference between normal visual awareness, which means just existing in the world and noticing people, the way most of us do, and objectification.

2:58 [SPEAKER_01]: This was actually a request from a podcast listener, and I'd like to start by reading the message that she sent to me. [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to reach out with a possible podcast topic that I would really love to hear explored from both the therapeutic and neurological perspective. [SPEAKER_01]: Something I hear repeatedly is that when we see another person, our brain automatically determines whether we find them attractive or unattractive, that this happens biologically, before conscious thought, and therefore isn't intentional.

3:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I struggle with that explanation because that isn't how I experience people at all. [SPEAKER_01]: I believe there is an important distinction between automatic observation and automatic evaluation. [SPEAKER_01]: When I see someone, my brain automatically observes, manner woman, taller short, beard or no beard, hair, clothing, etc.

3:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I see the person as a whole and move on. [SPEAKER_01]: What happens automatically for me is observation, not evaluation. [SPEAKER_01]: My brain doesn't take those characteristics and determine attractive or not attractive. [SPEAKER_01]: There isn't an attraction judgment that I consciously suppress.

4:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It simply doesn't occur. [SPEAKER_01]: My husband describes something very different. [SPEAKER_01]: When he sees a woman, his brain automatically evaluates whether he finds her attractive or unattractive. [SPEAKER_01]: If she's attractive to him, he can identify the particular physical or sexual characteristics that meet her attractive.

4:25 [SPEAKER_01]: To me, she has blonde hair is an observation. [SPEAKER_01]: I find her attractive because I like blonde hair is an evaluation. [SPEAKER_01]: Yet those very different processes are often grouped together as simply noticing. [SPEAKER_01]: I also question the assumption that because an evaluation happens automatically, it must be biologically hardwired.

4:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Automatic does not necessarily mean innate. [SPEAKER_01]: Thoughts and responses can become automatic through repetition, learning, conditioning, and reinforcement. [SPEAKER_01]: This becomes particularly important with pornography and sex addiction. [SPEAKER_01]: If someone spends years scanning bodies, seeking novelty, identifying preferred physical and sexual characteristics, and repeatedly evaluating people according to sexual desire ability, could that evaluation become so conditioned, that attractive, not attractive, eventually happens automatically?

5:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And if so, can neuroplasticity change that automatic evaluation itself? [SPEAKER_01]: I also wonder how much society has taught us to accept appearance based evaluation as normal. [SPEAKER_01]: We constantly categorize people as hot, beautiful, sexy, desirable, or our type, and then we're told that automatically evaluating strangers this way is simply biology.

5:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I understand evaluating attraction when someone is single and looking for a potential partner. [SPEAKER_01]: You're getting to know someone and determining compatibility, personality, values, connection, chemistry, and whether attraction exists. [SPEAKER_01]: But in a committed monogamous relationship, when you are no longer looking for another potential mate, why does every stranger need to be evaluated according to whether their physical or sexual characteristics are desirable to you?

6:12 [SPEAKER_01]: this also relates to objectification for me. [SPEAKER_01]: If I determine at first glance that someone is attractive because certain physical or sexual features appeal to me, then I've evaluated that person according to what about their appearance is desirable to me before knowing anything about them as a whole person.

6:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I personally believe there is an objectifying element to that, and I'd love to hear professionals explore where neutral observation ends, attractiveness evaluation begins, and objectification enters the picture. [SPEAKER_01]: Would you consider exploring this in a future podcast, particularly from the perspectives of neuroscience neuroplasticity, objectification, nogamy, and pornography sex addiction recovery?

6:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was a lot and the answer is yes, I will absolutely explore this and let's dive in. [SPEAKER_01]: This is a big topic and it's one that I'm excited to address because I hear about it all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: So when betrayal has devastated or shattered a relationship, whether it's been through pornography addiction, infidelity, or ongoing gaslighting and deceit, the betrayed partner's brain undergoes a fundamental rewiring.

7:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And you all know this. [SPEAKER_01]: If you've been listening to this podcast at all for even just a few months, you will know this to be the case. [SPEAKER_01]: That is the complex post-traumatic stress disorder that the partner experiences. [SPEAKER_01]: Their nervous system adopts a state of hypervigilance and becomes a highly-tuned radar system, constantly scanning their environment and their partner for threats.

7:43 [SPEAKER_01]: What an unfaithful partner might dismiss is just joking. [SPEAKER_01]: Is registered by a traumatized partner's amygdala as an active threat? [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, the amygdala is that fire alarm in the brain. [SPEAKER_01]: It's detecting threat all this time. [SPEAKER_01]: So to a partner rebuilding trust or trying to rebuild trust after betrayal, a lingering gaze or glance signals that the old behavioral patterns and boundary violations and lack of self-awareness are all still active.

8:11 [SPEAKER_01]: and framing a partner's distress in these moments as jealousy, or controlling, or anything like that is gaslighting, because it's actually a neurobiological threat response that is rooted in broken safety. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, as the betraying partner, it's really important for you to frame their behavior through the lens of you broke their safety, and now they are experiencing a neurobiological threat response due to that broken safety.

8:43 [SPEAKER_01]: To an unfaithful partner who is minimizing their behavior, a lingering look at a stranger is harmless. [SPEAKER_01]: But to a traumatized betrayed partner, that look is a flashing red siren. [SPEAKER_01]: It tells your partner's amygdala, their brain's threat center, that the exact same mindset that destroyed your relationship is still active.

9:04 [SPEAKER_01]: It signals to them. [SPEAKER_01]: that their partner is still in a place of visual consumption, that they are still acting out of entitlement and still willing to check out of your shared reality, and your relationship to get a quick hit of dopamine from somebody else. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's important to understand a lingering gaze is not just a look.

9:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be experienced as a microbted trail. [SPEAKER_01]: Each lingering gaze can be another microbted trail. [SPEAKER_01]: So even without intent, it's still experienced as a breach of safety. [SPEAKER_01]: For a betrayed partner, this distinction is a matter of basic psychological safety.

9:45 [SPEAKER_01]: When betrayal has occurred, whether through covert secrecy, pornography, or physical infidelity, the betrayed partner's nervous system rewires itself and becomes hyper-vigilant. [SPEAKER_01]: So in this episode, right now, I'm going to try to really unpack exactly why this happens. [SPEAKER_01]: I want to help to dismantle the defensive argument of, I'm just human, I can't help it.

10:09 [SPEAKER_01]: By breaking down the neurobiology of the first glance, versus what we'll call the second look. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I want to really explore how objectification actually works and why it strips you [SPEAKER_01]: What a betraying partner who is in true recovery must do to take responsibility for their eyes, their mind, and the safety of the person that they hurt.

10:41 [SPEAKER_01]: To get to the root of why this causes so much pain to the partner, we have to first draw a very clear line between two entirely different human experiences. [SPEAKER_01]: So let's start with the first one, normal visual awareness. [SPEAKER_01]: We live in a world, filled with human beings.

11:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Our brains are wired with sophisticated neural machinery designed to scan our environment. [SPEAKER_01]: And when an attractive person walks into our field of vision and automatic involuntary, neurological ping happens in fractions of a second. [SPEAKER_01]: it is a biological response to symmetry, to contrast, to color.

11:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It's normal. [SPEAKER_01]: In a healthy context, this is an instantaneous passive event. [SPEAKER_01]: It takes less than two tenths of a second. [SPEAKER_01]: The brain registers, there's a person. [SPEAKER_01]: It sees that person as a whole human subject, a complete [SPEAKER_01]: Multidimensional individual with a name, maybe they don't know the person's name, but they recognize that person probably has a name, and they recognize that that person has a life, and they see that person or that individual with intrinsic dignity.

11:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So that glance happens, it registers in your mind, and then it passes. [SPEAKER_01]: There is no lingering, there's no body scanning, no mental fantasy, and no real energetic shift. [SPEAKER_01]: So the observer remains fully grounded in their immediate surroundings and fully present with the person who's standing right next to them or the people that are standing right next to them.

12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So now let's contrast that with objectification. [SPEAKER_01]: Objectification is not an involuntary biological glitch. [SPEAKER_01]: Objectification is an active, intentional choice to consume. [SPEAKER_01]: This would refer to the turn of the head, the double take, the covert glance out of the corner of the eye, right, the visual tracking across a room.

12:51 [SPEAKER_01]: In that moment, the observer stops treating the person as a whole human being and reduces them to an object. [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is that that human being never consented to being reduced to an object. [SPEAKER_01]: That person is mentally dismantled in seconds into body parts, chest, legs, buttocks, thighs, or evaluated strictly for their sexual gratification or their own dopamine hit.

13:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So here's the key distinction to remember. [SPEAKER_01]: Appreciation leaves the other person feeling whole and leaves you feeling present. [SPEAKER_01]: Objectification covertly takes from a stranger to satisfy an internal impulse and it pulls you completely out of the present connection with your own partner.

13:42 [SPEAKER_01]: When a person with a history of betrayal objectifies someone in public, they are engaging in a micro-act of entitlement. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I want to say that they are not consciously aware in the moment of being entitled. [SPEAKER_01]: But that is inherently what's going on. [SPEAKER_01]: They are deciding that their moment of visual consumption is more important than their partner's emotional safety.

14:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't even have to just be their partner. [SPEAKER_01]: It could be their with their children, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Or with a parent, or somebody else that they're close with. [SPEAKER_01]: So, if you are the partner who's been betrayed, right now I want to speak directly to what is happening inside of your body when you catch your spouse or your partner objectifying someone.

14:22 [SPEAKER_01]: When you've experienced betrayal trauma, whether it was discovering a secret pornography habit or private secret messaging or physical affairs or any kind of secret sexual life. [SPEAKER_01]: your brain underwent a survival adaptation, coming back to the nervous system, your amygdala, that little almond-sized alarm system that's in your brain went into high alert to protect you from ever being blindsided like that again.

14:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Your nervous system ultimately became a very highly calibrated threat detector. [SPEAKER_01]: So, when you're sitting at a restaurant or walking through a park, or you're anywhere, and you see your partner's eyes linger on someone else. [SPEAKER_01]: Your brain does not evaluate that look in isolation.

15:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Your brain processes that look through the lens of your history. [SPEAKER_01]: So to an unfaithful partner who wants to minimize their behavior and they want to think, it's just a look. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't touch anyone. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't say anything. [SPEAKER_01]: What's the big deal?

15:23 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really important to understand that to the betrayed partners traumatized nervous system, that look is a warning system firing off. [SPEAKER_01]: It's saying the boundaryless mind said is still there. [SPEAKER_01]: It's saying the entitlement that allowed them to lie to me is still there.

15:42 [SPEAKER_01]: They are still willing to sacrifice our connection or our relationship or our marriage for a quick hit of validation or pleasure or dopamine. [SPEAKER_01]: This is why the betrayed partner's heart races. [SPEAKER_01]: So if this is you, if you're the betrayed partner and you're relating to this, just take a breath and take the sin.

16:01 [SPEAKER_01]: This is why your stomach drops. [SPEAKER_01]: This is why you feel a sudden overwhelming urge to retreat or to fight, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It is not jealousy, jealousy implies you are afraid of losing something to a competitor. [SPEAKER_01]: What you are experiencing in this situation is a neurobiological threat response to broken relational safety.

16:27 [SPEAKER_01]: when your partner's attention wanders. [SPEAKER_01]: They essentially emotionally abandon you. [SPEAKER_01]: They emotionally abandon the shared space between the two of you. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're left sitting next to someone who is physically present, but emotionally and visually absent.

16:44 [SPEAKER_01]: that abandonment hurts, and your nervous system is screening because it recognizes that you are no longer safe, and it recognizes old patterns that it looks at as being unsafe and scary and dangerous. [SPEAKER_01]: So now I want to turn my attention to the betraying partner for a moment.

17:03 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the person who is hopefully working on recovery and trying to rebuild trust. [SPEAKER_01]: While no one can control the automatic split-second visual spark, every person has absolute control over the second glance, or the second look, that linger and probably most important, the internal narrative that's going on inside.

17:27 [SPEAKER_01]: In relational recovery, a partner working to rebuild trust must practice active visual discipline. [SPEAKER_01]: This is not about trying to shame anyone. [SPEAKER_01]: This is about taking responsibility for where one directs their attention out of respect for their spouse and out of their respect for their relationship and out of respect for the dignity of others.

17:53 [SPEAKER_01]: When a betrayed partner notices a wandering eye or a second look and brings it up, [SPEAKER_01]: And that's actually going to be the opposite of healing for either of the partners and certainly not for the relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to dismantle the three most common excuses that the betraying partner engages in.

18:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about excuse number one. [SPEAKER_01]: This sounds like I'm only human, I can't help looking, God gave me eyes, something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's tell the absolute truth here. [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot control the first point two seconds. [SPEAKER_01]: That is true. [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot control the automatic visual ping when a person enters your field of view.

18:43 [SPEAKER_01]: But you do have 100% control over seconds point three point four and every second after that. [SPEAKER_01]: You control whether you're head turns, you control whether you're eyes track, you control whether you mentally comment on their body. [SPEAKER_01]: You control where your thoughts go, blaming your biology for a multi-second lingering stare isn't human nature.

19:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a lack of self-awareness, it's a lack of self-mastery, and it's a lack of emotional discipline. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go to excuse number two. [SPEAKER_01]: This sounds like you're being overly sensitive and controlling. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't even look around the room without you being triggered.

19:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, when you tell a traumatized partner that they are crazy or controlling for noticing your wandering attention, after having engaged in betraying behaviors often for years, you are actively gaslighting them, you are asking them to ignore reality so that you don't have to face your own lack of awareness.

19:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Rebuilding trust requires you to step into full empathy for how your past choices shattered their reality and how your past choices are impacting them in the present moment. [SPEAKER_01]: If your eyes are wandering, if your eyes are lingering, if you're taking a second or a third or a fourth look, you are not being controlled, if your partner says something to you, you are being held accountable.

20:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, excuse number three, this sounds like complete denial. [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't looking at her, I wasn't staring at him, I was just staring off into space. [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you were genuinely zoning out, if your gaze landed in the direction of someone else's body, a partner working to heal the relationship does not get angry or defensive.

20:39 [SPEAKER_01]: A partner in real recovery says, I see why that looked like I was staring. [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't paying attention, but I understand why that need you feel unsafe and I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: Defensiveness protects your ego. [SPEAKER_01]: So how do we fix this? [SPEAKER_01]: How does a couple move from this state of hypervigilance and defensiveness into genuine, lasting, ongoing safety and consistency?

21:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, in order to do this, we have to shift from defensive minimization. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I was just talking about that was sound like you're overreacting. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't mean anything by it to empathetic accountability. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's again what I was just sharing moment ago.

21:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I see why that triggered you and I'm actively choosing to keep my focus here with you. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, again, we have to shift from defensiveness to empathic accountability. [SPEAKER_01]: If you are the partner in recovery, rebuilding visual safety requires practicing active visual discipline.

21:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know oftentimes in podcasts, maybe even this podcast, we talk about a problem and don't always offer solutions, which can be really frustrating because obviously if you find out that there's a problem or you're doing something that's harmful to your partner, you want to know what can you do to change it.

22:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to talk right now about three concrete tools [SPEAKER_01]: The first one, many of you have probably heard of, and it's something I've certainly talked about very often, and it's something I think most C-Sets talk about and most people that are working with sex addiction and betrayal, and this is called the three-second rule.

22:18 [SPEAKER_01]: The moment your eyes register an attractive person, or a potential trigger, you do not linger to evaluate them. [SPEAKER_01]: You immediately shift your eyes away within one second, [SPEAKER_01]: you essentially re-encure your gaze onto the floor, the sky, the menu, or probably the best option your partner.

22:40 [SPEAKER_01]: This is not done at a fear or out of shame. [SPEAKER_01]: It is done as a conscious loving act of boundary keeping, respect for your partner, and respect for your relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, the second tool, the second thing you can do in the moment, is physical re-engagement. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you feel that initial visual pull in any kind of a public setting, use it as a prompt to pull you closer to your spouse.

23:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Reach across the table and hold their hand, look directly into their eyes, turn your body towards them. [SPEAKER_01]: Use that moment to actively anchor yourself in your real life with your real partner. [SPEAKER_01]: This becomes a moment or an opportunity for connection. [SPEAKER_01]: And the third tool that I want to offer today is proactive ownership.

23:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is so important. [SPEAKER_01]: Stop waiting for your partner to catch you and call you out. [SPEAKER_01]: If you notice a moment where your eyes almost lingered or you felt triggered, or maybe you even gave a second look, own it first, don't wait for them to have to say something to you.

23:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Chances are, if you realize it, they have realized it. [SPEAKER_01]: say to them, hey, I just noticed I almost got pulled into looking over there. [SPEAKER_01]: So I shifted my attention back to you and I'm here and I'm present and I just want you to know that I'm right here with you. [SPEAKER_01]: When you take proactive ownership, you take the burden of that hypervigilance off of your partner.

24:10 [SPEAKER_01]: You are demonstrating that they do not have to police your eyes or be a security guard because [SPEAKER_01]: And to the trade partner listening to this, your hypervigilance was a necessary survival tool after you found out the truth about the betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: But as your partner proves through consistent, long-term action that they are holding their own boundaries, your nervous system can slowly begin to relax.

24:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And at the end of the day, true relational intimacy cannot coexist with visual entitlement. [SPEAKER_01]: real connection requires presence. [SPEAKER_01]: It requires choosing over and over again to protect the sacred space between you and the person that you love. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, before I wrap up, I also want to say, please don't use anything I've said in this episode as a weapon against your partner.

25:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It is highly unlikely that someone who has been using a projective occasion as a means of self-soothing for the large part of their adult life. [SPEAKER_01]: And perhaps even part of their younger life, that it's not really realistic to assume that it's going to be easy to stop doing that.

25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to require great effort. [SPEAKER_01]: And making that effort is a choice. [SPEAKER_01]: But if the relationship is important to you, and if you want the relationship to heal, [SPEAKER_01]: And if you want the relationship to, not just survive, but to ultimately thrive, you have to do the work.

25:36 [SPEAKER_01]: The good news is that the more present you are in your own life, the more intimate you are with the people in your life, the less you want to live in a fantasy world, the less likely you are to objectify others. [SPEAKER_01]: The more you recognize the hurt you have caused those you love, by the behaviors you engaged in prior to discovery, the more aware you will become of the consequences of your behavior on others.

25:58 [SPEAKER_01]: you will be less likely to objectify someone because you will understand that that someone is not there to meet your needs. [SPEAKER_01]: And that person doesn't want to be objectified. [SPEAKER_01]: Because at the most fundamental level, every single person who crosses your path has the inherent right to be treated as a whole human being, never as an object to be evaluated or consumed or used.

26:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And let's be honest, about the culture that we're living in right now. [SPEAKER_01]: We live in a world that is saturated with hyper-accessible pornography, and where human bodies are commodified and treated like disposable content on a screen. [SPEAKER_01]: We live in a society that is wrestling with epidemic levels of sexual betrayal, broken trust, and sexual assault.

26:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And these all share the exact same root, which is the distorted belief that another human being exists for our entitlement, our gratification, or for our visual consumption. [SPEAKER_01]: That stranger on the street or that server I mentioned earlier at the restaurant or the person walking past you in the gym or at the grocery store or anywhere else or the client or the co-workers sitting across from you in a meeting, they do not exist to serve as the backdrop for someone else's impulses or fantasies.

27:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Each of them has a life and a story, people who love them, and the basic right to move through this world without having their dignity covertly stripped away to feed someone else's fleeting hit of dopamine. [SPEAKER_01]: When you dismantle objectification in your own mind and choose presents and basic human respect, you are actively pushing back against that broken culture that we're living in.

27:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You're doing something far bigger than just repairing your relationship, but you're also making the world a fundamentally safer place. [SPEAKER_01]: You're helping to build an environment where people are genuinely seen, rather than consumed, and where safety and integrity are not just concepts we talk about in recovery, but it's the standard for how everyone shows up everywhere.

28:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a good place to leave this conversation for now. [SPEAKER_01]: For those of you who recognize yourself in some way in this episode, I created a worksheet called Three Tools for Building Visual Safety after Betrayal to help you put into practice some of the specific tools to build visual safety that I discussed today in the podcast.

28:26 [SPEAKER_01]: If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. [SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, take care of yourselves, prioritize your safety, and integrity, and keep doing the work. [SPEAKER_01]: It is hard, but it is the most meaningful work you will ever do. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, where you're healing is our number one priority.

28:53 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325. [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about.

29:17 [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community. [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.