113. Why Stopping the Behavior Isn't the Same as Repairing the Harm

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcast was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:10 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, everyone. [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Marty, and today I'm really excited to introduce you to somebody who has been working with me since 2010.

1:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not Jackie in 2010 when I was doing a group once a week. [SPEAKER_01]: at a treatment center in Los Angeles and I was just leading a one-hour group at a facility for mostly chemical dependency with some sex and levitation, but mostly chemical dependency. [SPEAKER_01]: And I did back group every week and when I started, Jackie was working there as an intern full-time and she approached me and said she was really interested in sexuality work and she asked if she could sit in on the [SPEAKER_01]: that treatment center ended up going out of business.

2:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Jackie approached me and asked if I would consider having her as an intern in my practice. [SPEAKER_01]: I said yes and it is now 2006 and she's been working with me this whole time. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm excited to introduce her to all of you. [SPEAKER_01]: Jackie, welcome. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Martin.

2:34 [SPEAKER_02]: If you're like, this is a long time coming. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe it's been 16 years. [SPEAKER_02]: We're just talking. [SPEAKER_02]: It literally feels like a lifetime ago. [SPEAKER_01]: It really does. [SPEAKER_01]: Jackie and I have known each other through babies and cancer and divorce and marriage and moving and moving both of us lived in Los Angeles and we both now live in San Diego.

2:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, there's been a lot and also professionally we have been. [SPEAKER_01]: working together at my therapy practice for a really long time and then back in 2019 when I started helping couples heal, Jackie came over there as well and was running groups and now she is sort of my go-to disclosure expert and works at both companies.

3:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And you guys will notice for whatever reason I change back between Jacqueline and Jackie all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm always talking [SPEAKER_01]: So I am introducing you all to Jackie, Jackie Schwartz, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she is absets trained and has been working with me as I said since 2010.

3:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So the reason I brought Jackie here today is we have been facilitating the, well it's now called the helping couples heel workshop, but I have been doing this [SPEAKER_01]: two-day couples workshop since I don't know who's 2010 or 2012, but I started doing them with Dr. Omar Manwala and eventually he and I stopped doing them, but I kept going and I modified the workshop.

4:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I've modified the workshop a lot over the years, but probably starting in 2012, Jackie, you started to facilitate that workshop with me. [SPEAKER_01]: Does that timing sound right or was it later than that? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was about 2012 because I think I had already been working with you for a little while and so in the transition, we actually did a lot of kind of the working like making it a little bit different together, I think at that time because you were doing it with Dr. Omar for all of the for that.

4:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I have facilitated this workshop with other than Jackie. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just been Dr. Menwala over the years. [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to Jackie to come on today so we can talk a little bit about not just the workshop, but more about the content of what we talk about in the workshop because I have been hearing more and more and more from clients who are saying that [SPEAKER_01]: their partner, the partner who has hurt them, the betraying partner, is not able to provide the proper empathy, care, understanding of the trauma experience that the partner is experiencing.

4:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And as a result of the lack of understanding and the lack of empathy, that results in really the lack of relational healing, and really creating like a stuckness or a barrier to the couple being able to heal. [SPEAKER_01]: So our workshop is all about educating both partners. [SPEAKER_01]: on the consequences of betrayal and the depth of the trauma that it causes the partner in the relationship.

5:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we wanted to come on and talk about why that's so important and just share a little bit about what we had experienced and seen over the years and how we have changed our workshop in order to accommodate sort of the new learnings. [SPEAKER_01]: We've made lots of changes based on what we have done that's worked and what we've seen that hasn't worked.

5:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as things change, we change, and so Jackie, why don't we start by talking a little bit about what the workshop was like when we first started. [SPEAKER_02]: Even before that, what I just wanted to say quickly is even just not even just getting into the content of what it was and what it is now, which is so important.

5:57 [SPEAKER_02]: The fact that it's a workshop I think is so important because I don't think that people totally understand. [SPEAKER_02]: Like the difference about the material that you're going to get in a workshop versus therapy is about a 10 to 12 hour workshop and what you get in a 10 to 12 hour workshop, if I work with somebody individually or as a couple, I cannot give them in 10 to 12 sessions and that's you know three months right there because you have to catch up on what's going on and there's a lot of other things and.

6:21 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just not the same experience at all, so I just wanted to say that to you before you can go into the content. [SPEAKER_02]: Just the luxury of being able to get all of that information at one time and not have the interruption. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's an immersive experience where there is no other focus, right?

6:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Like everybody in that room is there for the same reason, and it's to talk in-depth and get really deep about betrayal trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: and the harm that it causes. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no other distractions and we don't start talking about other things, even related to betrayal, right?

6:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we don't start talking, for instance, about sexual reintegration and things like that. [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many things we couldn't talk about in that workshop, but it is very, very focused on the impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you can't get that going to a therapist every week.

7:06 [SPEAKER_02]: So that depth of understanding, the fact is workshop and not therapy allows that is one of the reasons I think it's so important. [SPEAKER_01]: And then another thing, again, before we get into the content, something else I think that's really, really, really important. [SPEAKER_01]: And UNI've said this so many times, that even if the clients, the couples that come don't get a thing out of the education, which, of course, they do.

7:28 [SPEAKER_01]: But if they didn't get anything out of what you and I teach, the experience of being in a room with other couples who are going through the same experience is so valuable. [SPEAKER_01]: talk about their experiences and recognize their own partners experience in what they're hearing from others and being able to take it in and tolerate it in a way that they can't do in their own relationship because of their own shame and the defensiveness and all of that.

7:57 [SPEAKER_02]: And you can't get in a group because you're with people who are in your similar situation. [SPEAKER_02]: You can't get that in couples therapy because you're not with other people, it's very unique in that way. [SPEAKER_01]: It is and also the betrayed partners, what we've been told by dozens of betrayed partners, is that it's really helpful for them to also hear from other betrayers because it allows them to have a little bit more compassion and empathy for these other people when it's hard for them to have it for their own partner because, you know, again, that's the person that hurt them.

8:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very personal. [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that this workshop, this very unique environment, or setting allows both people to get in touch with empathy, compassion, understanding, a little bit more patience than is possible and like a couple setting or outside of a setting like that. [SPEAKER_02]: Even if it's nothing about what we say, because of the other clients who are also there, 100%.

8:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I like to think that we are great at what we do, but again, I think that the gold and experience like this is really just being with the other couples. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yes, but I also think there's a lot of other goals. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, why don't you share some of those goals?

9:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I talk about this in the workshop, but one of the things that I think is so important is that idea of having the same language and learning the same information at the same [SPEAKER_02]: And there's not a lot of experiences where you get that, you need to go to individual coaches or therapists and get a similar information, you know, people kind of have similar education.

9:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Some people have similar trainings, but you won't hear the exact same thing and being able to hear the exact same thing about what's going on when couples are making meaning of why there's a trick girl that's coming up over and over and over if they have the same understanding of that. [SPEAKER_02]: so different than if they're both getting their own understandings of that and then coming together and trying to deal with what happens almost all the time, the early stages after the discovery or after disclosure or the first few years.

9:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was just thinking as you were talking an example could be if I were seeing a betrayed partner in my therapy practice and I'm explaining to that person [SPEAKER_01]: the concept of existential trauma, that they're experiencing existential trauma, which is impacting the meaning that they make about themselves, their relationship, the world, all of that.

10:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And that really lands for them. [SPEAKER_01]: They understand it now, like, wow, I get why this is such a deep, deep trauma for me, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And then they go home. [SPEAKER_01]: to the person that hurt them. [SPEAKER_01]: And that person doesn't have any understanding. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they've never even heard the term existential trauma.

10:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And now it is the betrayed partners' responsibility to try to educate their partner on this, right, without another professional there. [SPEAKER_01]: And not to say that they can't do it, but it's usually not very effective. [SPEAKER_02]: I generally do not see it effective when one partner ends up being [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's very different to get the information from a professional versus getting it from your own partner.

10:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember when I interviewed John Lee on the podcast last year, I was asking him about a lot of partners asked me like, is it okay if I tell my partner when they get triggered or they're having a regression? [SPEAKER_01]: Can I point it out to them? [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, no. [SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing worse than being told by your partner, right, that you are out of your window of tolerance or you're just regulated or whatever it is.

11:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that that's what we see a lot that it's just not effective when one partner, particularly the betrayed partner is telling. [SPEAKER_01]: The person that hurt them who is filled with shame about what they have done, now you have caused me to have existential trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: You have contradicted all of the things that I believed about myself in the world and our marriage and relationships and then the person who caused the harm is like, ah, that is so hard to take in.

11:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But in our workshop, not to say that it's not difficult to take in. [SPEAKER_01]: But when I look around the room during our workshop, which I'm doing constantly, monitoring the room as are you, I am watching the faces of the betrayers. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's landing. [SPEAKER_01]: I would say 98% of the time we've done [SPEAKER_01]: how many workshops do you think we've done like 50?

12:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say okay let's see how many years, 15 years, maybe more than 50 more than 50 okay let's say it's 50 and all of those workshops I would really say like 98% of the time what we have to say lands pretty well with the betrayers. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's continued to land well because since that time, you know, we brought in these words like abuse that wasn't really emphasized necessarily as much in the beginning and we've still seen the betrayers be able to look at it and own it.

12:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, without that defensiveness, it's not to say that it's not hard. [SPEAKER_01]: It would be hard for anybody to have that word used. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're talking about abuse, not the kind of abuse that most of us are used to hearing about. [SPEAKER_01]: And when we hear about abuse or we see abuse, often it's, you know, the kind of abuse that's very overt, right?

12:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You can look at it and you see it and often we think of it as being violent, aggressive, physically aggressive, you know, screaming, you know, a lot of verbal abuse. [SPEAKER_01]: But for the most part, when we talk about abuse in the context of betrayal, we're talking about the integrity abuse, the lying, the manipulation, the stonewalling, the denying, the gaslighting, all of those things.

13:20 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think anyone would have a hard time hearing that they have been abusive to their partner. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, I don't want to make it seem like when we share this information [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's, you know, I get it and I'm thrilled to be in that club, but there is an understanding and a recognition that this does fit me, this does make sense and if it makes sense, I'm going to have to do things differently in order to change the trajectory of our healing.

13:57 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the idea of co-regulation, but really the idea of why the brain needs co-regulation and when I see [SPEAKER_02]: both partners, but most of the betrayer really understand that. [SPEAKER_02]: We can spend so much time talking about like, what is going on for the partner and why there is per regulation that needs to happen.

14:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Like what kind of attachment injuries happen and what goes on with the brain, what injuries go on with the brain. [SPEAKER_02]: When a betrayer is really able to understand the full cause of what their betrayal caused in their partner, [SPEAKER_02]: The level of empathy is a different level.

14:35 [SPEAKER_02]: And they're able to show up in a different way that makes more sense for what the partner needs. [SPEAKER_02]: When the partner doesn't necessarily happens words, because they're going to be trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to share an email I got from somebody who is dealing with betrayal trauma.

14:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And this email is just one of many that I've received that is sort of the impetus for us sharing this particular podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: And also the impetus for why we have this workshop. [SPEAKER_01]: The workshop is specifically for people where there is a lack of understanding, lack of recognition of the depth of trauma that is caused from betrayal.

15:11 [SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't have [SPEAKER_01]: a couple comes to this workshop. [SPEAKER_01]: If they already at a point where the betrayer has incredible empathy skills and is able to validate the partner's experience and never gets defensive, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like they're past that, this wouldn't be the right environment, right?

15:28 [SPEAKER_01]: This wouldn't be the right workshop for them. [SPEAKER_01]: But when there are situations where the betrayed partner is feeling still like they are not [SPEAKER_01]: understood that their pain is invalidated, that there is no empathy, that there is no humility, where there's no accountability.

15:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Those situations end up with a couple's staying stuck because I don't believe that any couple can heal from betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: When the person that caused the betrayal is not able to fully accept responsibility for the harm that they caused. [SPEAKER_02]: and moving the partner feels rushed, right?

16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, rushed to move on and heal. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So here's just an example, one email that I got. [SPEAKER_01]: So hi, Marnie. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm having a really hard time right now. [SPEAKER_01]: My partner tends to shut down emotionally if anything emotional or stressful happens, especially if I am hurting, or even if I'm hopeful about our recovery.

16:20 [SPEAKER_01]: This feels to me like abandonment and it's very triggering because when my partner shuts down, [SPEAKER_01]: They can't empathize with me, and therefore doesn't really care how they're impacting me. [SPEAKER_01]: This feels like an affair kind of attitude to me, that they will do what they think is best for them, regardless of how it impacts me, and they feel very entitled to shutting down in these moments, which is the worst part of it.

16:41 [SPEAKER_01]: If they were apologetic or took any kind of accountability for how hurtful and damaging this is to our recovery and our relationship, I could be patient with the fact that this kind of trauma response takes time to untangle, but it doesn't feel like my partner, [SPEAKER_01]: It feels the need to change this pattern so I feel hopeless about our recovery right now.

17:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So my response to that person was, have you considered the couple's workshop? [SPEAKER_01]: Because my feeling is that, in this case, the betrayed partner who wrote that email is a man, and so the betrayer is a woman, and I felt immediately like if his wife is not able to do exactly what he's meeting, like he's saying we are stuck, and I'm not hopeful about our recovery because my partner cannot empathize with me [SPEAKER_01]: Right, but I think also most people don't have the knowledge.

17:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, before I started doing this work, before I went and became a seasat, I had no clue the depth of trauma that was caused by betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: I know it wasn't nice to cheat. [SPEAKER_01]: I knew that it wasn't good to lie, and that of course somebody would be hurt if they're partner cheated on them or hurt them.

17:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't realize there was so much trauma attached to this. [SPEAKER_02]: Our senses of cells, when we have a healthy attachment versus a traumatized attachment, is so incredibly impactful in the way that somebody functions in the world, in the way that they can attach themselves, in the way that they can parent in the world, or show up as a friend.

18:07 [SPEAKER_02]: The attachment injury that happens with betrayal specifically sexual betrayal is so incredibly impactful that if it's not really understood we find that people really get it stuck. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, let's talk about attachment for a second. [SPEAKER_01]: So when we attach as an adult to our partner, the person that we choose to become our partner and spend our life with, we literally look to that person for safety and we should because healthy attachment is about a natural expectation of [SPEAKER_01]: we're not going to expect that from a casual relationship or an acquaintance or a co-worker.

18:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It's usually in the context of, well, a marriage. [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, when we're little, it's our parents or our caregivers, but when we become older and get into our relationships, that's what we're looking for in our partner. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, when the source of danger, [SPEAKER_01]: is the partner that we're supposed to be able to go to for safety and protection.

19:02 [SPEAKER_01]: There is a huge rupture. [SPEAKER_01]: And the injured partner really, it feels like a mortal injury. [SPEAKER_01]: Those are words that I've heard so many times. [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, I think that that's also been there was a book that I read that really like kind of validated. [SPEAKER_01]: That betrayal is a mortal injury.

19:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It's experience is a mortal injury. [SPEAKER_02]: It has to be because the partners we see have the same symptoms over and over. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and over, and over, and over. [SPEAKER_01]: Regardless of age, regardless of where they live in the world, regardless of religion, or of sex, gender, yeah, it's the same symptoms.

19:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And that means something. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, so back to what we're saying before, I want to sort of loop this back so it makes sense. [SPEAKER_01]: that if the attachment injury is so huge and the one that caused that injury doesn't understand that that's what they've done, right?

19:56 [SPEAKER_01]: They understand that they did something wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: They understand that they lied, they betrayed, and they understand that their partner's going to be upset or mad. [SPEAKER_01]: But when they don't understand the depth of it, they will say in a few months, you know, we got to move on.

20:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't done it or I apologize, I've done everything I could. [SPEAKER_01]: This isn't good for you to go back anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, you keep talking about the past and I'm not answering any questions anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if most people truly, truly understood from a neuroscience perspective, what is happening in the brain of the traumatized betrayed partner that they would not [SPEAKER_01]: at the same way.

20:33 [SPEAKER_01]: They would have more of an understanding and then they would be able to show up in a way that's going to help their partner heal. [SPEAKER_02]: And when you see many other partners acting exactly the same way, it's hard to deny that. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we've had so many betrayers after the workshop come up to us for email us, contact us in some way and say thank you.

20:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I heard in that workshop often my wife or my husband has said to me over and over and over and I couldn't hear it from them. [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't hear it from them. [SPEAKER_01]: And when I heard it out of the mouths of other partners, it hit me and I can't believe I didn't get it. [SPEAKER_01]: And now that I get it, I know what I need to do.

21:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I really have a blueprint for how I need to move forward and how I can change the trajectory of our healing. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the partner no matter what kind of needs of some information for healing and if the couple is going to try to work on their relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think for the betrayers own recovery, understanding the depth of what your betrayal has caused is helpful.

21:29 [SPEAKER_02]: I think both people can heal on their own perhaps without doing this together. [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that if you're going to try to be working on a relationship and want at some point to have an intimate relationship again, we can gain all the trust, you really have to understand this injury to a really deep level.

21:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's crucial. [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things we talk about when we start the workshop is why do we do this workshop? [SPEAKER_01]: Like what's the reason? [SPEAKER_01]: And we say that we truly believe that a [SPEAKER_01]: this piece of it. [SPEAKER_01]: When you don't come in with the relational trauma aspect, right?

22:06 [SPEAKER_01]: When you don't really educate on the betrayal trauma and, by the way, so many of our clients come in with treatment induced trauma and often the reason that they've experienced trauma in like therapeutic settings is because their trauma was minimized. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we see the lessons that that now, then we did, I think, started, you know, whatever that is 15 years ago, but you still definitely see it.

22:32 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I always say the same thing that you just said, like, we see so much less of it today, but I have to tell you, when I say that to clients, a lot of times they're like, no, no, no, no, no, it's still really happening. [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope that it's less, but it's definitely still happening, and I always say it's not with any intention that a professional would want to hurt a client.

22:49 [SPEAKER_01]: But it happens and it's going to happen most often when a professional does not themselves understand from a neuroscience perspective, a brain science perspective. [SPEAKER_01]: What happens to the betrayed partners brain after betrayal without understanding that the professional. [SPEAKER_01]: literally can't guide the couple through this process and get them to come out in a place that they're so much hoping to get to.

23:17 [SPEAKER_02]: You know the reason that their recovery isn't complete is really not understanding the death of the betrayal like you were saying and understanding also how empathy is then able to heal that and we also talk a lot about into the different types of empathy. [SPEAKER_02]: Do they still call sex addiction and attachment disorder?

23:36 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I know that they used to call that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I still believe that. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it has a lot to do with attachment. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it has a lot to do, also with integrity. [SPEAKER_02]: And we now understand, it's not just the sexual behaviors. [SPEAKER_02]: Let me digress for a second because we talk very little in the workshop about actual sexual behaviors that did any harm.

23:52 [SPEAKER_02]: Whether that was corn or affairs or whatever it was, it's really the betrayal piece that we talk about doing the harm. [SPEAKER_02]: So whatever that was, I think that because it's really the integrity piece, it's the betrayal piece, empathy for that piece, not just that I understand how this meeting may be physically unsafe or feel unsafe, but understanding also how the integrity issues also hurt that attachment is so important.

24:16 [SPEAKER_01]: so important. [SPEAKER_01]: We like to sort of put the context together by first really getting deep about all the different sort of areas of trauma that partners experience and then of course that the relationship experiences but then we talk about like okay what do we do with that now we know that there's this huge problem we understand there's this huge huge huge huge trauma so now how do we possibly get through all of that?

24:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And so then we move into talking about how to develop the skills that are needed to help the trade partner and also the traumatized relationship, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So we talk about how do we help the couple communicate, how do we help the person that has caused the harm, take care of and show up for the partner in an honest way, a validating way, an empathic way, and also I think it's really important [SPEAKER_01]: to work on their own individual self and develop those relational skills, develop integrity so that they're able to understand the traumatic impact within the relationship and help make repair.

25:22 [SPEAKER_02]: And be able to face the shame and talk about it because I imagine that some of the listeners right now are probably already going into shame just thinking about all of these things that we talk about. [SPEAKER_02]: but I think in the workshop, we also help you sort of face that and understand what she means and what it blocks you.

25:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and the inability to tolerate the shame, the inability to communicate, and take care of the partner, the inability to recognize the deficits in yourself, which we all have, by the way, in different areas, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But the inability to do those things often leads to the continuation of integrity abuse.

25:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, it ultimately ends up making the relational patterns so much more harmful. [SPEAKER_01]: It actually makes things so much worse and stuck very stuck exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: Not talking about it might feel a little bit better sometimes, but it is not the answer, and it's not going to lead to where you want to go.

26:16 [SPEAKER_02]: No, a fear that I hear from people before they do the workshop or maybe some of the beginning stages or maybe they're further along and they just really don't feel safe is I don't feel ready to do couples work with them. [SPEAKER_02]: They need to do their own work before we do couples work and what I've learned, what I understand from my work is that couples work after betrayal trauma can happen almost right away but the reason for it and what's done in the room is very specific and this isn't one of those.

26:43 [SPEAKER_02]: You're not going to come in and start to build [SPEAKER_02]: There's three stages, and right after the trail trauma, the first stage of a couple wants to try to look together, work it out, has to be safe, like you have to gain that safety, and this is part of that safety, it's understanding, like what the brain needs to feel safe, what just the nervous system needs to calm down for you to even be able to show up in any other way.

27:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's so much also a correct relationship out. [SPEAKER_02]: And so if you're scared of doing work with your partner, it's not that we're going to be asking even this workshop [SPEAKER_02]: that this is a lot of psychoeducation about really what's going on and how to create that safety, that first stage, and what then the next stage of trust and the next stage of intimacy building looks like, but it's really focused on that first.

27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you can't talk about how to heal the relationship if you don't know what you're healing from. [SPEAKER_01]: And if your nervous system is all messed up. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, those are the things that we see as being the primary problems.

27:40 [SPEAKER_01]: We've got dysregulated nervous systems. [SPEAKER_01]: We've got so much shame and defensiveness. [SPEAKER_01]: We have deep trauma and symptoms of complex post traumatic stress disorder. [SPEAKER_01]: Then we have the other crises that are going on like, where do we go for treatment and all the financial concerns?

27:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And when there's children, what are we going to tell the children? [SPEAKER_01]: How do we get child care for the children? [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes there's issues around health, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like having to go get STD testing. [SPEAKER_01]: And there is so much going on. [SPEAKER_01]: I think in every single podcast episode, I talk about the complexity of betrayal trauma.

28:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think it is probably one of the most complex relational issues that a couple can face. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it happens because of the closeness of the relationship of partners, of spouses, of that type of relationship in portrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's such an awful thing for a couple to have to go through because I was just talking about this yesterday and a presentation I was doing.

28:38 [SPEAKER_01]: that there's so much internal dissonance that both people are experiencing and for the betrayed partner, they're in so much pain and the person that they really really want to go to for support and protection and love and comfort is the person that hurt them. [SPEAKER_01]: So there's this deep desire to come close and connect to and then at the same time there's this voice that's saying you can't trust them.

29:01 [SPEAKER_01]: they're not trustworthy. [SPEAKER_01]: How can you go to them? [SPEAKER_01]: They're the one that hurt you. [SPEAKER_01]: So the internal dissonance is so big and there's another level of the complexity. [SPEAKER_02]: By the way, that internal dissonance is in a way for the relationship of blessing because there are people who don't go through that and feel like this is too much and I can't do this.

29:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's people who have that. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that if you have that, I mean, in a way that's blessing because there's still something to work like there's still hope. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, no, that's true. [SPEAKER_01]: I like that you put a positive spin on that because the internal dissonance can also feel very, very overwhelming and scary and confusing and all of those really painful emotions.

29:42 [SPEAKER_02]: I think actually public is more hooked to the trail than it does to park. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I think you're probably right, not that I don't want to give hope to the partner. [SPEAKER_01]: There is definitely hope and there is definitely healing wouldn't do this if there wasn't I hope that everyone who listens to this podcast knows by now that I absolutely believe that there is hope and I believe that there's hope for the relationship for sure.

30:05 [SPEAKER_01]: If the right ingredients are in the mix, so to speak, however, even if that relationship does not heal, I do believe that both partners can heal. [SPEAKER_01]: But in order to heal together, if that's the goal if you're listening and you want to heal, then we believe that it is necessary for the person who caused the trail to truly develop an understanding of the depth of trauma that their behavior has caused the person [SPEAKER_01]: and if they don't get that, then they're not going to know to learn and develop the necessary skills in order to help their partner and also the relationship heal.

30:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they need the willingness and the education to understand that what they're dealing with is trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: Jackie, who do you think is the ideal candidate for the workshop? [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that people who feel stuck or feel like there is a lack of understanding or connection with understanding what happened the same way what the trauma is and kind of what the next steps word are I think anybody that's there and that can be if it's new probably not if there was just a discovery last week and might be really hard to sit with this.

31:19 [SPEAKER_02]: as your mind is probably just not in the place. [SPEAKER_02]: You're still trying to figure out all of, you know, where are you going to live? [SPEAKER_02]: What are we going to do with our business? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if someone's in a crisis, it's not the right fit, because they need to do crisis management, right?

31:31 [SPEAKER_01]: They have to tend to the crisis before they're able to, like you said, sit and take all of this information in, and stay in their seat for, you know, 10 to 12 hours. [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that anyone else, whether it's, that they feel stuck later on and they never really got this information, absolutely for them.

31:47 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that if somebody's newer and you're able to be in a place where we talk about subjective units of distress, something we talk about in the workshop, but just also one of those ways that a common language is really helpful. [SPEAKER_02]: If somebody's distress tolerance, you know, their nervous system is feeling safe enough to be able to pay attention and suit the real way and get the support and they're not, you know, thinking about just how do I survive right now?

32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we don't make disclosure a prerequisite at this point to come to the workshop because actually what I've seen is for clients that come and they haven't done a disclosure, the workshop often is the catalyst for them saying, oh, I have to go home and I have to do a disclosure how can my partner heal if they don't know what they're healing from.

32:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, right, so I think we definitely. [SPEAKER_01]: If you do the disclosure, if you don't to disclosure, it's effective and helpful, and yeah, like you said, it doesn't matter how far out someone is other than like you just said, like we don't want someone to write it out of discovery, like within the first couple of months, but I'd say, [SPEAKER_01]: That six months on and then there are people that come in and literally they're going through this for six years, or we've had people 10 years and they come and devastated and one thing I hear over and over is them telling the younger couples or the couples that [SPEAKER_01]: just had discovery not too long ago and they're there.

33:14 [SPEAKER_01]: They're saying you were so lucky and so happy for you that you found this when you found it because we have been on this path for you know five years, six years, seven years, eight years and we're still there and we're still stuck. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so I think of [SPEAKER_01]: I also think the workshop is great for really assessing at a certain point with the stuckness if you can get unstuck.

33:42 [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, when I have people say to me like what that client or what that person said to me in the email that I read a little while ago, [SPEAKER_01]: What I'll say is, okay, so what you're needing is for your partner's show up differently. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm hearing, right?

33:56 [SPEAKER_01]: You're needing the empathy, you're needing them to be able to tolerate your distress. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So go to this workshop and if something doesn't change after this workshop, you have some really, really good information. [SPEAKER_01]: And what you do with that is up to you, but if your partner hears this, [SPEAKER_01]: and understands the depth of the pain and the trauma that they've caused and their behavior doesn't change.

34:22 [SPEAKER_01]: They continue to minimize or they continue to get angry when you're upset or they leave the room shut down whatever it is that they do become defensive, going to shame, then that's gonna tell you something. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have to decide if you're willing to accept that that's the way it's gonna be or if you wanna make a change.

34:41 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we very rarely see people who go through this and say, I now understand all of this, and I'm going to continue to act the way that I was acting. [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. [SPEAKER_02]: There's some people who get stuck and have their own trauma reactions. [SPEAKER_02]: But understanding what's needed to get on stuff.

34:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's some people who will say, I don't know if I have it, I don't know if I can do it. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't even know if I can really see that though. [SPEAKER_02]: I think when people will really hear this information and it makes sense with what the brain needs to get on stuff, there's very little denial and, you know, for the betrayers in addiction.

35:13 [SPEAKER_02]: One of the problems is that addiction isn't just physical, right? [SPEAKER_02]: It's also in the brain and the brain likes to do things with addiction. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's just a vacation. [SPEAKER_02]: and denial and all sorts of defense mechanisms to continue to think the way that it does and justify things.

35:26 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's such a like bubble copper of denial, this works up, that it's hard to go back into that. [SPEAKER_02]: This is also a way to say like there's no denial that usually the symptoms that you're seeing in the relationship is caused by this betrayal from. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and actually speaking of denial, I wanted to say for anybody who's actually dealing with sex addiction, one of the first tasks that's been identified by Pat Carns and C-Sats are taught this, and this is also what facing the shadows is all about as the first seven tasks of the recovery model.

35:58 [SPEAKER_01]: is breaking through denial, because most addicts come in and they're still minimizing the amount of harm that's been caused, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And like you said, rationalizing or justifying the consequences. [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the first things you need to do is break through denial because if someone's still in denial, they're not going to do disclosure, for instance, because they're going to be denying that there's very much to disclose.

36:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think that, again, one of the really great benefits of this workshop is that I don't think anyone can come out of that workshop in denial. [SPEAKER_01]: That betrayal causes trauma, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: They cannot come out saying, I still don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of this.

36:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I still don't understand why the fact that I've been sober for two years is not enough. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why you're still getting upset and why you're triggered all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, outside of somebody who has some kind of [SPEAKER_01]: Untreed or undiagnosed mental health disorder, I think you can't come out of that workshop and not understand that you have caused significant harm and that it's your responsibility to repair that harm.

36:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and for the partner to understand that their behavior are often symptoms of a trauma and their behavior often will look very similar to the next person who's had trauma and the next person who has had trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: And often to the partner to even though they're the ones experiencing it, I see that, oh my goodness, this makes so much sense and now I really know what I need to treat so the other thing I wanted to mention is.

37:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Something that I hear a lot in the workshop is when a betrayer hears other partners say things that they literally have heard their partners say. [SPEAKER_01]: It really impacts them in a different way and it lands differently. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, [SPEAKER_01]: even though that might sound great and in theory it really is because it's important that they get it.

37:46 [SPEAKER_01]: The whole reason that we're together in this workshop is so that they can get it. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a good thing. [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, the betrayed partners can often get really upset when that happens because number one they're like you're having empathy and you're upset for these people who you don't know and I've been telling you the exact same thing for so long and you [SPEAKER_01]: And even though that can be the reaction, it's still important to come and do it.

38:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And then be accountable, handle the fact that your partner's going to feel the way. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know what they're right. [SPEAKER_01]: If they're saying to you, I've been begging you for a year to listen to me. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to understand what this is doing to me. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like this is killing me.

38:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel broken. [SPEAKER_01]: It can barely function. [SPEAKER_01]: and you haven't listened. [SPEAKER_01]: You've minimized it, you've denied it, you've pushed back on it, you've been defensive, you've gone into shame, you've made it about you. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you come in and you're hearing the same things from these other people and you finally get it.

38:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So the partner's not always going to say, I'm so relieved, you finally get it. [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they're going to start with, I can't believe that this is what it took for you to be able to understand. [SPEAKER_02]: and understanding a little bit more about attachment. [SPEAKER_02]: So what allows me, but hopefully also allows people at the workshop, understand why that would be so hurtful, because when you talk about healthy partnerships and healthy attachments to a primary partner, having that trust in that person is going to be something that is going to be so important for really being able to lean in and trust that relationship.

39:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of deeper work though. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we go too into that at the workshop. [SPEAKER_02]: It's more of the safety and the nervousness. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you are sort of wondering like from a practical standpoint, what do we actually do?

39:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically we're together for two days and the first day and then part of the second day we are really laying out for you what the trauma is. [SPEAKER_01]: What are all the different dimensions of the trauma for the partner and also the relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: from the behavior and the integrity.

39:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: We don't just talk about the impact of trauma on the partner from the betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: We talk about the impact of the betrayal and the accompanying patterns of abuse that go along with betrayal, just like we talked earlier, the gas lighting and the withholding and the shutting down [SPEAKER_01]: transferring of blame and yelling and all that kind of stuff.

40:12 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we focus on both of those things. [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, for many, many, many, many, many, many, many partners, even after the sexual behavior has stopped, and it's even been a long time, those integrity violations continue, and so that's where a lot of the deep pain and trauma remains, right?

40:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So we see a lot of people come in where there is quite a period of sobriety, but there's still a lot of trauma in the relationship and the partner's still dealing with a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so you come in and we teach you about why is this so traumatic? [SPEAKER_01]: Why is there so much harm as a result of the trial?

40:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And you need that foundation in order for us to move into, okay, then what do we do about it? [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: We can't teach you the skills to heal if we don't know what we're healing from. [SPEAKER_01]: So we make it really clear what the problem is. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we talk about how do we fix the problem?

41:02 [SPEAKER_02]: And the problem being deeper because, you know, the surface problem might be, the partner can't have wedding folders up on the wall anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: The partner can't have a wedding ring. [SPEAKER_02]: They ask the same questions over and over and over. [SPEAKER_02]: They can't move past it.

41:15 [SPEAKER_02]: They can't find any good memories from the past anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: So we talk about all of that and more of a framework of understanding. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the deeper trauma that's causing all of that. [SPEAKER_01]: And we don't send you off with now you have every tool in your relationships going to be perfect.

41:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a wonderful, wonderful foundation. [SPEAKER_01]: And either the continuation of work you're already doing or for some it'll be the start. [SPEAKER_01]: And it will require a lot more work. [SPEAKER_01]: But again, [SPEAKER_01]: it's going to give you a really, really great foundation and jumping off point because more than anything else, like there's so many workshops and podcasts and books and courses on things like communication and boundaries and disclosure and all of those things are so important and we offer things like that too.

42:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But none of that. [SPEAKER_01]: really matters or even makes sense when you don't have a context established for why those things make sense. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, if you like why talk about boundaries, if you don't understand the reason that those boundaries are so incredibly important for safety.

42:17 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, because the partner will be able to show up because the nervous system will be so captivated that there's going to be no hearing that's even possible. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, or the betrayer is going to get angry and feel like a boundary is punishment if they don't understand why it's so important that there are safety boundaries in place.

42:34 [SPEAKER_02]: And if they can take ownership for even saying like, okay, this might make you feel safer. [SPEAKER_02]: Can I do this? [SPEAKER_02]: Like the ways that that helps the nervous system and the reasons why if they take the ownership themselves and this allows them. [SPEAKER_02]: I think some of the ideas and understanding of how to do that.

42:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so too. [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope that it has come across clearly that Jackie and I are really passionate about this work and of really giving couples the opportunity to have a chance, really have a chance. [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully we'd like to fill the void, you know, sort of like the puzzle piece that's missing.

43:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I think for a lot of couples that are stuck. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you are listening and you think this might be helpful, feel free to reach out. [SPEAKER_01]: We're happy to talk to you and help you figure out if this is right for you. [SPEAKER_01]: You can also find more information on the website helping coupleshield.com.

43:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Our next in-person workshop is coming up November 5th and 6th. [SPEAKER_01]: We only do it in-person twice a year. [SPEAKER_01]: So this will be the last in-person workshop of 2026. [SPEAKER_01]: It is in San Diego. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we do have an online workshop also twice a year.

43:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Those can also be found on the website. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I almost always wish when I'm working with a couple of or an individual. [SPEAKER_02]: So that they had all of this information that I can already use as a tool to help them. [SPEAKER_01]: But without this information, I can't. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I find it very, very frustrating when I'm working with either partner individually.

44:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And I see [SPEAKER_01]: that there is this huge missing piece. [SPEAKER_01]: I see it that they're missing it or if they have it because I've helped them develop an understanding, their partner doesn't have it. [SPEAKER_01]: You talked about that earlier about not having that shared. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in understanding in a common language and a common understanding what happened.

44:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly and it's frustrating because as a therapist, I can't do anything about that. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to burden my client and say, okay, I'm going to give you all of this and you need to take this to your partner and you give it to them and then tell them that they have to learn this or I can't do that.

44:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Even as a couple of therapists, you can't do it. [SPEAKER_01]: You can't come in and only talk about this. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, you could pick one thing and come in and speak for an entire session about it. [SPEAKER_01]: But let's be realistic in a couple of sessions in my experience.

44:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't had a couple that have been able to come in and manage their nervous system for 50 minutes and let me just educate them. [SPEAKER_01]: without jumping in, sharing, getting very triggered, all of that. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can't do all of that in 50 minutes. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just not possible, right?

45:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's other things that come up. [SPEAKER_02]: These new feelings every day that when we're re-talking about things, it's not right consecutive in a row, you can't get it all. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it reminds me of why sometimes people that are dealing with betrayal, they might have a therapist that they're working with, but then they don't do disclosure with that therapist because they can't ever get it done, like disclosure requires so much work.

45:21 [SPEAKER_01]: You really have to do a lot of work. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a structured formal process and if they go into their therapist, [SPEAKER_01]: they get so distracted by talking about all this other stuff that's going on and then they can't get to the disclosure. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's why a lot of times they'll be a separate coach or therapist that's walking someone through the disclosure process that they can just be with their therapists and talk about their deeper issues and how did they get here and what's going on in their life today and how did they make things better?

45:46 [SPEAKER_01]: dealing with betrayal, it's a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: It requires incredible focus and dedication, commitment, and it's more than willingness. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think willingness is enough. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's genuine desire. [SPEAKER_01]: I think if you're just willing, I don't know.

46:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that it's going to get you there. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it has to be something that you really want. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And take ownership for. [SPEAKER_01]: Take ownership and recognize also that what you're fighting for is not the relationship that you had because you're not going to ever have that relationship again.

46:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I've said this so many times before that relationship is dead. [SPEAKER_01]: So there really is a need for acceptance of we are building something new. [SPEAKER_01]: We're never going to get rid of the past. [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to come with us. [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's always going to be there.

46:29 [SPEAKER_01]: We can't get rid of it. [SPEAKER_01]: But we are literally stepping into [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason we can't go back is neither partner is the same for us neither, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And who wants to go back to a relationship with all of that betrayal and integrity of abuse was going on?

46:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And even if they did it, even if somebody said, I would like to just go back and not know anything. [SPEAKER_02]: You can't, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Because you can't, I know it changes you. [SPEAKER_01]: You can't, yeah, you can't unlearn what you've already learned right and also even though people might say that sometimes like I wish I never discovered this I wish I didn't know at the same time, nobody really wants that because that would mean you're living in a situation where someone is lying to you every day, right where there's no honesty and there's no real intimacy because when somebody is giving their attention and their intimacy to another person or thing.

47:18 [SPEAKER_01]: they're not able to be fully intimate with you. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's sort of like just living in a way that's so disrespectful and dismissive of yourself. [SPEAKER_02]: And so the kind of relationship that you can now build is based on an entirely different kind of trust. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I say this all the time I see couples when they get to the other side that are in a relationship and it might be really really hard to believe this if you are in it right now I get that I really do and I want to be honest when I say that there are couples truly that are on the other side that say they would never have wanted to get here the way they did ever it was so painful and at the same time their relationship is 50,000 times better than it was before there is more connection honesty

48:03 [SPEAKER_01]: intimacy, talking, sharing. [SPEAKER_01]: They literally say that there's all these ingredients in the relationship now that they never had before and they're so happy to have now. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it wouldn't have been able to happen if they didn't get this deep. [SPEAKER_02]: But of course, most of them would not say that they would have wanted to go through this way.

48:20 [SPEAKER_02]: but having it be changed and now having the depth of a relationship, there's no way to have that depth before because there were these secret, I don't know if everybody knows the analogy of the secret sexual basement, but the fact that there was a secret sexual basement, there were intimacy issues that in hindsight people can say, oh, now I see what that is and now that's not acceptable to me anymore.

48:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, that is something we see all the time. [SPEAKER_01]: I think all couples have to have some acceptance of things that their partner does that they don't love. [SPEAKER_01]: Things that annoy them, things that they find, someone intolerable, but they tolerate it because they love them and, you know, they're married and they, they're like, well, I can't have everything, right?

49:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, things are going to annoy me. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's true. [SPEAKER_01]: That's just human relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: But what I see after betrayal is that the betrayed partner no longer will tolerate any of those things that they once were willing to tolerate. [SPEAKER_01]: after the betrayal, it's like, no, that's not going to happen anymore.

49:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And that can also be really hard for the person who's done the betrayal, because now they're not just trying to repair this damage that happened, but now they're also having to change a lot of the ways that they showed up in the relationship before. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, hopefully it makes it better and more intimate and all of those things.

49:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's always the goal. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, we hope that this was helpful for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Whether or not you ever do an HCH workshop, my suggestion is that you actively look for settings where you can find this kind of information. [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully it'll be in an immersive situation with other couples because again the information is very very helpful But a huge huge part of this kind of healing is coming from doing it alongside other couples hearing the other stories Sharing with each other.

50:02 [SPEAKER_01]: It's incredibly powerful. [SPEAKER_01]: So again, reach out to us if you are interested or you want to register We have a few spots left for the November workshop otherwise you can get into one of the online workshops [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like we left this out a little bit, and I want to make sure to say this for any of the traitors listening because I feel like this can sound a little bit scary to walk into if you're the betrayer after this podcast, but the camaraderie and the support that we see that betrayers give each other and feel this united desire to learn about themselves and learn about their behavior and show up in a different way and support each other.

50:39 [SPEAKER_02]: you see so much, even empathy for each other, even if there's a hard time showing for empathy for the relationship, often from the betrayer because of shame or defensiveness, the empathy that you see from also the other men, I think is so important and I think help support that idea of being able to face this without shame.

50:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and something else about that is one of the things I love about the workshops is seeing betrayers who have a history of really not intimate relationships, like not being able to really connect with them, be intimate with other men and other women, and they come together and have these like unbelievably intimate vulnerable conversations.

51:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like what's happening in this kind of a setting is they're starting to learn the skills that they will then need [SPEAKER_01]: to help heal their own relationship, right? [SPEAKER_01]: They're practicing with other people. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think to be honest, after betrayal, sometimes it's a lot easier to practice at least for a while with other people, before you're able to do it successfully with your own partner, just because of all those things that we talked about today, all the shame and the regression and the defensiveness and the integrity abuse and all of that stuff.

51:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't even talking about gender trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: what we talk about gender trauma in the workshop. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you are interested in learning more about that, come to the workshop and there is a podcast that I did a while back. [SPEAKER_01]: You can find that it was an interview I did with Ted Bunch and it's all about gender trauma and the manbox and the socialization of men.

52:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for being here today and Jackie, thank you so much for being with me. [SPEAKER_01]: Not just here now but being with me for the last like 15 years or something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Monty, for the opportunity for all of it. [SPEAKER_01]: Of course. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody, take good care, and we will see you again soon.

52:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Bye. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

52:48 [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

53:07 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.