93. Unscripted Truths: A Candid Conversation with Dr. Omar Minwalla

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marnie Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

[SPEAKER_00]: The helping couple's heel podcast was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: Hi everyone, it's Marty, and before I dive into today's episode, I want to first give you a little context. [SPEAKER_03]: First of all, I am thrilled to announce that after five years, Dr. Minwala is back on the helping couple's heel podcast, and I know many of you are going to be as happy to hear that as I was when we talked about having him come back.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, when Dr. Minwala and I sat down to record this conversation, our plan was to talk about [SPEAKER_03]: And essentially what that is is the framework that he's developed to help make sense of the hidden reality that exists in essentially all instances of betrayal. [SPEAKER_03]: But before we hit record, we started talking about our shared history in this field, the evolution of the sex addiction treatment model and the way it's evolved and the way it's shaped both of our work.

[SPEAKER_03]: and our roles in this field and the changes that we've witnessed over the years, and the conversation became so rich and so meaningful that we actually decided to just keep recording. [SPEAKER_03]: So when the episode begins, you're going to be essentially just dropped right into the middle of an intimate and unscripted exchange between the two of us.

[SPEAKER_03]: And one that was definitely not planned, but really felt incredibly honest and important. [SPEAKER_03]: And we decided that that is what we were going to share. [SPEAKER_03]: And he will come back and we will talk about the 10 steps to constructing the basement. [SPEAKER_03]: And hopefully that will happen in the not-too-distant future.

[SPEAKER_03]: In this episode, we mentioned quite a few times the Hornets nest, and I realized that without context, that could be confusing to many of you. [SPEAKER_03]: So I just wanted to share in advance a little bit about what we are referring to when we mentioned the Hornets nest. [SPEAKER_03]: So nothing can be more controversial and fiercely debated and well-documented in psychology literature than the decades-long heated topic of sex addiction treatment in the field of psychology in the United States.

[SPEAKER_03]: The field evolved and still exists in professional camps who do not talk to each other. [SPEAKER_03]: and Dr. Minwala refers to this topic and professional debate metaphorically as the hornets nest. [SPEAKER_03]: So hopefully, as you hear us discuss this, it will make sense having had this little bit of information.

[SPEAKER_03]: In the meanwhile, I hope that you will find this conversation as fascinating and as thought provoking as I did, enjoy the episode. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, the recording is going, I'm not going to officially start the podcast yet, but I will say, I was giving a lot of thoughts to the Hornets Nest and how it's something that we talk about, and we talk about it very tenderly and like carefully, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And I've been a part of that, and I think I've been telling you for like quite a few years now that I'm getting more and more and more and more comfortable, really with where I stand and how I see all of this and how I share it publicly. [SPEAKER_03]: So, [SPEAKER_03]: have seen you how great of a concept would it be or an idea would it be to talk about that out loud in public like blow the lid off like there is a fucking hornet's nest.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really uh interesting that you could bring that up, Marnie. [SPEAKER_01]: It is a term I use, the Hornets Nest, it's a metaphor, of course, and it's developed over many, many years, and it's a big part of my professional journey for sure, and in response to part of that story is where the Hornets Nest came to me in terms of a metaphor.

[SPEAKER_01]: Another metaphor, which is my work outside of that noise, which is my clinic where I simply did the work and focused on the work and my patients and what we were doing. [SPEAKER_01]: And so the metaphor I use for that is a clinical cocoon sacred clinical cocoon because it's so pure not getting involved in the noise outside and just really creating a nice container with different energy that different container outside of ordinary life and the world outside also I think.

[SPEAKER_01]: continue to develop into the concept of ordinary space and extraordinary space. [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot there, but there are these two metaphors, the controversy in the field around sexual acting out, sex addiction, and fidelity. [SPEAKER_01]: The minute you start talking about that, there's an immediate emotional, very highly charged.

[SPEAKER_01]: reaction in the field and it's been going on since I stepped into the field as a postdoc 20 something years ago this debate particularly over sex addiction was in full force and still is actually today. [SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: just to summarize what we just talked about. [SPEAKER_01]: There's the Hornets Nest and the Sacred Clinical Coon.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even just naming the Hornets Nest took courage. [SPEAKER_01]: I had to work at just even naming that for myself. [SPEAKER_01]: Simply because it is so sensitive in the field, this whole topic. [SPEAKER_03]: But you know, Omar, what's really amazing to me is that I've known you a long time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like you've always at least appeared so confident in your knowing of what you know. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm talking about clinically, like what you know in terms of about integrity abuse, about partner trauma, that all these things that we have to be so careful about, talking about in the field.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've never heard you say that it took courage for you. [SPEAKER_03]: I've admitted that it's taken courage for me. [SPEAKER_03]: For sure, it's taken a lot of courage. [SPEAKER_03]: to get comfortable talking about all of this with such conviction, I suppose, and truth. [SPEAKER_03]: But I hadn't known that about you.

[SPEAKER_03]: It seemed so natural and like from the very beginning, you were like, yep, I'm going to say what I'm going to say, and it's okay. [SPEAKER_03]: What, you know, what I'm going to harness nests is out there, and if I bump into it, it's okay. [SPEAKER_03]: So that is nice to hear. [SPEAKER_03]: We're surprising to hear.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, interesting because talking about the truth of my work and what people are going through and in particular speaking truth in terms of articulating symptoms that are not being seen and people are suffering, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that takes courage too, but my voice has always been [SPEAKER_01]: And you're right, there is a confidence there about my work.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, part of that is shutting out the noise outside and really focusing on the people in the work and your patience and doing good work. [SPEAKER_01]: And in some ways really not engaging the hornets nest has been actually a way of developing this model in purity and also a way of protecting it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I can really see that about you, shutting out the noise. [SPEAKER_03]: That's a great way to say it. [SPEAKER_03]: You've done that and something that I think makes a lot of sense with you is that you're able to shut it out and go deep into that sacred clinical cocoon. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think you'd never would have been able to create this incredible training in this model that you have.

[SPEAKER_03]: First the model and then the training to be able to teach the model and put it out into the world if you were sort of living in that Hornets nest every day. [SPEAKER_01]: It's exactly correct. [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't afford it. [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't afford to put any energy into those dynamics and also focus on what I was learning from my patients and listening to their voices and stories and doing the work that I believed in and attending to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it kind of had to go that way. [SPEAKER_01]: I had to focus, I needed a safe, pure place of academic and clinical freedom to focus for 20 years. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I created. [SPEAKER_01]: But to get back to your reflection there, part of that shutting out the noise was also not really speaking too much about the controversy and getting involved in it or putting my voice out too much in it or about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So even naming this metaphor of the hornetsness, that's why it was so hard for me because I haven't really been involved in trying to even name it, right? [SPEAKER_01]: What changed a little bit which is interesting and gave me the courage to name it actually more is when I started doing just you know in the last let's say five years started training on this model in this way of looking at infertility and sex addiction and cheating.

[SPEAKER_01]: When I started training professionals and in particular, if you're doing professional training at that level, if you're gonna be offering continuing education and in like in my case, education through the American Psychological Association, then you have to meet certain standards. [SPEAKER_01]: One of those standards are that what you're teaching.

[SPEAKER_01]: is as much as you can being connected to existing literature and research. [SPEAKER_01]: What's the existing body of research out there? [SPEAKER_01]: And as I started doing that, number one, there's so much in the journals and academic clinical research on the controversy. [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of articles you go to on [SPEAKER_01]: you know, these issues are highly controversial in the field.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's an ongoing debate. [SPEAKER_01]: Some journals you go to talk about 25 years of sex addiction and compulsivity development. [SPEAKER_01]: And look at far we've come. [SPEAKER_01]: You go to another journal. [SPEAKER_01]: Like 25 years of sex addiction model and zero research that it's effective.

[SPEAKER_01]: look at how far it has not come and it's like there's so much validation in the literature that yeah this is really controversial so it's so controversial. [SPEAKER_01]: It kind of gave me courage to be like you know what? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: You know what? [SPEAKER_01]: That's been my experience for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then that kind of gave me a little bit more courage to say you know what I'm going to name that that's the Hornets nest and I've been experiencing it my whole career. [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you all of that literature because. [SPEAKER_01]: It encouraged to just name it and not be as afraid of that and the consequences of that and that it's really not just coming from me and my experience it's actually validated and it's in the research so it actually became part of my training and that's why even in my training I use that metaphor.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just share with the students you know. [SPEAKER_01]: My personal metaphor for the controversy is the hornet's nest because you can get stung and I've been definitely a target of lots of stingers. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you have, but I think that that's within the field less so with the actual people, patients, human beings who have been exposed to your teachings, your learnings, all of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's my experience is that you've been stung and the problem is more with the with the professionals in the field. [SPEAKER_03]: More so than it is the people that are out there really experiencing the harm in the trauma that a company's betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, here's another really important thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: The whole time in the sacred clinical cocoon as I'm developing this way of approaching how to do the work and how to see cheating and infidelity in sex addiction, the evidence that I experienced was from the patients and their reactions. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the type of evidence. [SPEAKER_01]: 100% In your vining as a therapist when you're intervening clinically, part of what is important is the feedback that the work itself gives you.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's an organic feedback is my intervention working. [SPEAKER_01]: What is the patient saying, what are they experiencing, what is actually happening? [SPEAKER_01]: And for 20 something years without a doubt hardly ever has there been a [SPEAKER_01]: a situation where I'm sharing about this truth about abuse, victimization, and trauma, and people push back, no, it highly resonates, you know, the truth is truth, and when people hear it, they resonate, and it makes sense, and it's logical, and you just got to explain it well and break it down.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's really where the courage comes from, Marnie, is so much feedback of, yes, this resonates, yes, this is working. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for naming this. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Dr. Minwala, keep going, keep going. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's where all the mojo comes from.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not for me. [SPEAKER_01]: It's from the work itself and this undeniable organic feedback that what you're doing here is really [SPEAKER_01]: and it's undiable. [SPEAKER_01]: So it just made the hornet's nest seem all that noise seem pretty irrelevant actually. [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't really compare actually, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: One has so much power and strength. [SPEAKER_01]: You have all these people saying yes. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have this noise outside with all this controversy. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's also remind [SPEAKER_03]: I know. [SPEAKER_03]: I remember very well at the time that I worked with USRI back in that was in 2007 or 2008 at this point.

[SPEAKER_03]: You were speaking openly about these topics at conferences. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say this. [SPEAKER_01]: It was blasphemous. [SPEAKER_01]: 2005 in 2006, just saying that somebody who found out their partner had a secret sexual life and had trauma symptoms, that was blasphemous. [SPEAKER_01]: I got so much pushback for trying to name just the T-word, forget about abuse.

[SPEAKER_01]: The A-word wasn't even there and the V-word victim wasn't [SPEAKER_01]: back in 2005 and six, I was just trying to say, hey, these people, these women have trauma symptoms. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know what, I don't really see or understand, even logically or clinically what you mean by co-sex addiction, co-dependency, and how it applies here.

[SPEAKER_01]: It all, I don't even understand how it applies anywhere, but I certainly don't understand how it applies to these women. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm seeing trauma symptoms, and so that was my first talk [SPEAKER_01]: And after I gave that talk, man, I realized then how controversial it was. [SPEAKER_01]: Before that talk, I was completely innocent.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought this was just another talk. [SPEAKER_01]: I had no idea it was gonna be a problem to simply use the T-word trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: and apply that. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's pretty insane that you can't just say, hey, I think there's trauma here, insane that that would be controversial and such a big deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, after that talk, a huge number of women and survivors approached me, literally with tears in their eyes, including professionals. [SPEAKER_01]: And then right after that talk, a lot of old school therapists and in particular men really came at me hard in a aggressive way.

[SPEAKER_01]: So much so that I think it was on one of your podcasts, Marnie, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You had, I think, Stephanie Karns who said and reflected back on that talk. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think what I learned from your podcast was, she said that she noticed people circling the wagons around me after that talk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So that was a real thing. [SPEAKER_03]: What I can say is after that talk, I think that was a first step in you sort of beginning to move away from sort of working as a team member on some level in the field to being more insular and sort of going into that clinical cocoon.

[SPEAKER_03]: You didn't move away and start the Instrovers sexual health and I think that was a big part of it, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Because for a long time, you were not welcomed with all of that. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, you're welcome over here when you're saying these things, but bring in the T-word, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Then, you know, no. [SPEAKER_03]: And somebody that's really interesting to me and almost funny on some level. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I'm sure I've said this to you before, but I remember sitting with you at a restaurant near the office, near the Instrovers sexual health. [SPEAKER_03]: And I couldn't understand what you meant when you were talking about this big controversy.

[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't see it, but I also wasn't the one going out at that time in doing the talks, and then hearing the feedback and getting aggressively attacked. [SPEAKER_03]: I remember you were trying to explain that to me, and I was sort of almost defending the field. [SPEAKER_03]: like, no, I don't think I don't hear that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, Mar, I don't see that. [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't know if that was because of ignorance or just because really I was at a point in my career. [SPEAKER_03]: It was the early stages and I wasn't actually out there as much and going to the conferences and seeing people in person and hearing what people were saying.

[SPEAKER_03]: But there was definitely a very clear point where it became very obvious to me what you had seen. [SPEAKER_03]: and I realized that I had a decision to make, and I don't know that I was as conscious of it at the time, but the decision was either to go with the truth and to really dive into my version of the truth of what this was all about, or to try to play nicely and avoid controversy, and sort of go with the masses, and that definitely didn't feel okay or right to me, either.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like both of us in many ways have, [SPEAKER_03]: stuck with our truth and listened to what the patients and the people that are out there experiencing harm. [SPEAKER_03]: What they've experienced and how they resonate and what we are speaking about and it'll be a good segue to move into the other metaphor of the basement.

[SPEAKER_03]: But that resonates for people and when people actually have tangible, [SPEAKER_03]: way of explaining something, then they can figure out what they have to do to heal and make things different and transform. [SPEAKER_03]: And honestly, I feel like you have really provided that. [SPEAKER_03]: I think that you single-handedly actually have provided this incredible metaphor that people use all the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like sex addiction, let's say. [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like the secret sexual basement and integrity abuse, by the way. [SPEAKER_03]: have become terms that people are now just saying and using and throwing them out like, yeah, you know that this is a thing. [SPEAKER_03]: I want you to know that if you don't already that that is starting to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking 20 something years later and you're sharing how just naming and developing a language and a concept right the secret sexual basement integrity abuse and that being a thing is profoundly helpful it's huge it's huge and it starts with. [SPEAKER_01]: the T word, just naming the T word, and keep on going with naming the truth and not letting fear stop you when you know something's true and important, especially when people are suffering and your standing up and finding your voice means less suffering than I think there's a huge opportunity to find your voice for good there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_03]: I agree. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm proud. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm very aware as we're talking that you and I are both people that have done that and who have taken a stand for what we believe in and what we know. [SPEAKER_03]: And again, going back to what you said earlier, not just know from our own experience, but it's validated by the research, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's written about in clinical papers and journals. [SPEAKER_03]: I will tell you, I am a very proud of the fact that I've gotten to a place in my career, and it was not easy to get here where I am really way less concerned about what somebody's going to think about what I'm saying, from the terms of not believing it, right, doubting it, not believing it, judging me, all I can do is a human being is be as authentic as I possibly can and to be real, and to be real for me, for me to be a real human being, sharing my truth.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's that [SPEAKER_03]: The things that I talk about are real, and I believe in them and I stand behind them. [SPEAKER_03]: And I know it's the same for you. [SPEAKER_03]: So it's exciting to have you back on this podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: You know it's been five years since the last time you were on, it was April of 2020.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: It's a long time ago. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's nice to talk to you because you know my story. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: You are actually bringing up things that I'm not thinking about and it's nice to just be reminded of the story and one thing you brought up is just the beginning of the Institute for Sexual Health and literally your right mark.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that came out of [SPEAKER_01]: a real sense of after that talk and after working with Sylvia Jason for a few years and really working with women and hearing their stories and workshops and then eventually working with men and hearing their stories and how they're responding to this model called the trauma model at that time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Sylvia and I did. [SPEAKER_01]: workshops and just gained way more of that organic feedback that I talked about and that gave me a lot of confidence and then there did come a critical point where I really felt, you know what, you're being silenced here and you're being told how to do the work.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, yeah, that's not going to happen. [SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to create my own sacred space and clinic of academic and intellectual freedom. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to do the work. [SPEAKER_01]: How I see fit, no one's going to tell me how to do this work.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I feel like it's really helping people especially. [SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, that's how the Institute for Sexual Health got created. [SPEAKER_01]: You actually told one of your colleagues and friends a long time ago, you were saying, hey, I think you should maybe apply to be an intern at ISH, which ended up being, if I'm not mistaken, Trish.

[SPEAKER_04]: It was 100% fresh. [SPEAKER_01]: Started as an intern and then became a staff member. [SPEAKER_01]: And then I would say was the one really primary therapist that just stayed with ISH really consistently all the way through the Sacred Cocoon and really showed up and really helped me with partners.

[SPEAKER_01]: and Trisha and I doing intensive with partners for six, eight days, four days, whatever it was back in the day. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Trisha and I went to graduate school together and then she was doing an internship with the private practice supervisor who was working at my building at the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I can't remember the details but it wasn't working and she wasn't going to stay with him and she was looking for a new supervisor and I just you know me I love making introductions I love putting people together and yeah I said I know someone I think would be great and who could really use some help and yeah and then I introduced you guys and I remember Trish and I started I think the first partners group at ISH together and we co-facilitated it for a while and yeah and then she.

[SPEAKER_03]: state on and her work is incredibly beautiful. [SPEAKER_01]: So interesting how all these paths connect actually, you know, I know. [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a lot more. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot more. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot more stories stories with Marnie. [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of them.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I remember, I remember, I mean, think about this. [SPEAKER_03]: It's amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: We started our journey together. [SPEAKER_03]: It might have been 2007, but if not, it was definitively 2008. [SPEAKER_03]: And I know that because I know that I was actively working at SRI in 2008.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Omar, it's 2025, it's almost 2026. [SPEAKER_03]: And look at where we're at now. [SPEAKER_03]: Look at what we're talking about. [SPEAKER_03]: Let's celebrate because yes, even though I know you said it earlier that there's still a hornet's nest, and there is, but I do want to say, so I graduated as you know from the DSTT training, and I'm certified in your model, and now you're teaching a new cohort of students, and I love coming in and having the ability to sit in.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I've done that. [SPEAKER_03]: The last one, there were 50 students. [SPEAKER_03]: 50 students that are not only taking this course, this training, but they're embracing it. [SPEAKER_03]: In every breakout room, I'm blown away listening to the others. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I could sit here and talk about the feedback that I've heard from students.

[SPEAKER_03]: So to me, I want to celebrate the fact that we are seeing a huge movement of people opening up to learning about all of this and then taking it out and educating others. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: Again, we have a long way to go, but it is happening. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm so proud to be a part of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I really want to celebrate that. [SPEAKER_03]: And I hope that you take time. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, a cocoon is definitely the only place where you could have put together this training because it is so incredibly comprehensive, based in so much research. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's incredible.

[SPEAKER_03]: This training is it's not for the faint of heart. [SPEAKER_03]: It takes a huge commitment, but it's amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure have you taken time to celebrate, you know, in the midst of all of the work and the creation that you've been doing for the last bunch of years? [SPEAKER_01]: I think the whole time, and more and more, let's say the last decade.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in sort of a constant sense of celebration, every time there's illumination, and that can translate into less suffering. [SPEAKER_01]: I get happy about that. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel good, and it's really not about me. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really just about that that's happening, you know, especially people who have sat with me and heard me lecture, just been in my groups or trainings or be a better man program.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm just a vehicle a mess and for a message, a type of perspective, a new consciousness coming into the world around for years and years right seeing in fidelity and cheating and having a secret sexual life in a certain way and then now there's this new awareness of like, whoa, let's step back, let's look at this metaphor of a secret sexual life, a secret sexual basement and then.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's really see the abuse, the victimization, and the trauma here. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the peace that's in the dark, and that's the new. [SPEAKER_01]: When I say illumination, I'm illuminating what three concepts, three words, the a-word, the v-word, and the t-word, and that's the new consciousness that's coming into the world is.

[SPEAKER_01]: People are literally awakening, seeing, more, and they're seeing something that's been in the dark [SPEAKER_01]: And it's hard to see. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's part of the blindness is it's can we afford to really look at it and see it because if you see it clearly, you have to deconstruct gender and power and masculinity first and foremost.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know, and I remember it so well when you first told me about it and you said to me, is there's something that you want to bring over that has to do with sexual health. [SPEAKER_03]: It does not have to be about sex addiction or compulsive sexuality. [SPEAKER_03]: Think about it. [SPEAKER_03]: At that time, and this was interesting because it was before I had diagnosed with breast cancer.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was a couple of years before. [SPEAKER_03]: I said to you, yes, I'm very passionate about the topic of cancer sexuality and intimacy. [SPEAKER_03]: And you said, bring it over and really gave me an opportunity to start to develop some of that work which I was doing at the time and ironically sort of stopped doing that when I personally got diagnosed with cancer, but I'm only sharing that because I remember how [SPEAKER_03]: devoted you were to doing the work, right, to just focusing on the patients, focusing on the needs of the people.

[SPEAKER_03]: And personally, I was so excited about being given an opportunity to focus on that other piece that was so, so important to me. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the reason it's on my mind right now is because I've been talking about sort of resurrecting a little bit of that work at some point.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know when. [SPEAKER_03]: or how I'm going to have the time, but it is something that I still feel very, very strongly about. [SPEAKER_03]: And so thank you for giving me my first opportunity to do that all those years ago. [SPEAKER_01]: Marnie, thank you for sharing that. [SPEAKER_01]: It's very vulnerable and courageous.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just honor your survivorship first foremost, but also, yeah, thank you for reminding me about that, because when I started the Institute for Sexual Health, like I was just sharing, [SPEAKER_01]: You did approach me about a topic that has nothing to do with sexual basement or fiction, but it definitely had to do with sexual health, and it was about breast cancer in the impact to someone's sexuality gender body, which later became what I call the tratic.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there was such a need for in particular women to just talk about how does this impact our sexualities, our bodies, our partners, how do we talk about it with our partners? [SPEAKER_01]: How does it impact them? [SPEAKER_01]: Do they have support? [SPEAKER_01]: having breast cancers so much more than just impacting the breasts.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's oh my goodness. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I will also say that I have worked with many betrayed partners who are also breast cancer survivors. [SPEAKER_03]: And I will say that this topic of cancer sexuality and intimacy becomes even more complex and layered for those women.

[SPEAKER_03]: who now have that sort of extra burden of the impact of their breast cancer and then having to cope with their partner or their spouse who has engaged in all of this secret sexual behavior and trying to reconcile that with what has happened to their body and who they are as a woman and [SPEAKER_03]: you know, really, really complex.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's another area that I've really wanted to be able to try to focus on, I've been thinking about actually maybe starting a group for betrayed partners who also are breast cancer survivors to sort of address some of those more nuanced issues. [SPEAKER_01]: Marni, it's really important.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really support all of that. [SPEAKER_01]: I even bring it up in my work all the time when I'm talking about the impact to a partner's body, medical issues, the triadic core, meaning her sexuality, gender and physical body and her relationship to those three, most sensitive tissues in the human psyche, how we feel about our sexuality, gender and our body are the three most sensitive tissues in the human psyche, which is why I call them [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of times, especially in my work with men and helping them understand the impacts on partner, I'll bring up what if you have a partner who is already in the process of chemotherapy or going through breast cancer and then boom, she finds out about a secret sexual basement and has this other explosion of trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now there's two traumatic stories going on in intersecting for this person. [SPEAKER_03]: This is deeply personal, and I'm actually not sure that I will end up leaving it in. [SPEAKER_03]: But can't imagine you're going to remember this, but it was 2008, you were interviewing me, and you asked me if I had any kind of personal tie to sex addiction.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I said no, and then sort of, would came out a little bit later in the conversation was that I mentioned that I did have an experience with discovering my father, having a bit of a basement, and every UV, like, but you haven't thought about that before. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, that is, you know, that's definitely traumatic, and that's betrayal trauma.

[SPEAKER_03]: But the reason I bring it up is that when that was going on with my father, I will never forget as long as I live, talking to my mother about this. [SPEAKER_03]: My mother was going through breast cancer treatment at the time, and then ended up subsequently dying a few years later. [SPEAKER_03]: And she said, how can I blame him?

[SPEAKER_03]: This disease has ravaged my body. [SPEAKER_03]: Those were her words. [SPEAKER_03]: I've never forgotten it. [SPEAKER_03]: And even as I'm sharing it with you now, it's heartbreaking to me because she was actually already dealing with so much trauma from, first of all, knowing she was going to die, but also what was going on with her body and medical conditions and physical pain and all of it, just the whole thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then she finds out about this basement, of course we didn't have any of the language back then, but she found out about this basement and then she proceeded to make sense of it and find a way to justify it because of what was going on for her because of the breast cancer. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Marnie, my hand is on my heart.

[UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm crying. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: That was really, really heartbreaking. [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think a lot of people understand the depth of pain. [SPEAKER_03]: I really do love that you have named that, the triatic core and the attention that you give to that, because yeah, it's the most sensitive tissue.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's so many deep wounds. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's an interesting question to look at, too, is integrity abuse the problem and that secret sexual basement or secret sexual behavior, sex addiction, all of that is a symptom of the abuse or is it the opposite? [SPEAKER_03]: There is a secret sexual basement or a compulsive sexuality problem or sex addiction and part of keeping that alive.

[SPEAKER_03]: by definition in order to engage in the secret sexual basement you have to be engaging in abusive behaviors to cover it up. [SPEAKER_03]: But it's an interesting thing because I think it could be both ways. [SPEAKER_03]: I think in certain cases there's probably integrity of use first, which can lead to the entitlement of the basement.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it can go so many ways in terms of development, prominence, and there's somewhat separate too, because not all the time when someone's engaging in those sexual behaviors is a coming out of compulsivity or a lack of control problem, it can just be entitlement itself. [SPEAKER_01]: But just getting back to the Hornets Nest, there were two things I wanted to touch on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you can edit this out too, because I'm really sensitive, I don't even know what the proper rules are on a podcast, but I'm very sensitive about using anyone's name. [SPEAKER_01]: So like, I just use yours, Chris is, and I think I'm good with using those names, and then also Stephanie Collins, and I just wanted to say that I'm conscious and sensitive of using her name too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Man, do I have so much respect for her, by the way, out there, if you do use this, but the second thing on your podcast form. [SPEAKER_03]: But wait, can you say that? [SPEAKER_03]: Just stick with that for one second. [SPEAKER_03]: Why do you have so much respect for her? [SPEAKER_01]: Just her role in the field, and if you go back to the podcast she did with you, she talks about [SPEAKER_01]: I think she says it's like trying to turn a gigantic ship around her, the Titanic or something like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But she really stood up for changing from co-sex addiction to trauma. [SPEAKER_03]: She did. [SPEAKER_03]: You were in her book when she read did the entire book, ending a shattered heart to make it trauma informed. [SPEAKER_03]: She had you read a chapter, and you were the only person that wasn't a seasat.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she had your voice come in to talk about [SPEAKER_01]: very courageous in a leadership position, very alpha, and talk about backlash and being on the front line. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, her way more than me, I'm in the sacred cocoons. [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. [SPEAKER_02]: She's not in the secret to couldn't at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, she's not in the secret because she's in the house. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: So I can't even emphasize that courage and work really. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know much more than what she shared on the podcast, but that alone and just my knowledge of her role in the field is someone very intimately aware of the field and its evolution.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why morning. [SPEAKER_01]: And then in that podcast, not only did she say, she noticed people circling the wagons around me, which was right, but she brings up something really brilliant, and it very much connects with this conversation about the hornets nest in my evolution. [SPEAKER_01]: Over time, you know, I've become a cutely aware.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you're getting stung a lot and getting a lot of heat, you're going to start asking questions about why. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to become very thoughtful about that dynamic if it's hurting you on an ongoing basis, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So I've been doing a lot of thinking, probably as has Dr. Karns herself, a lot of thinking, right, being on the front line and getting heat, you're going to start thinking about that a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one thing she brings up and one thing I've come to realizes, it's simply just part of the role here that I'm playing about being a messenger and bringing in new ideas and anyone who's bringing in new ideas, especially ideas that challenge power structures, [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to get flack and I just I think I'm in so much more understanding of that that there's a deep acceptance of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So any discussion now about the hornet'sness, I definitely don't come as a complainant. [SPEAKER_01]: There's been real true victimization of me absolutely as a professional. [SPEAKER_01]: However, I understand it now. [SPEAKER_01]: and it comes with the role of bringing in new ideas and it's necessary.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, deep acceptance, deep acceptance for the hornet's nest and deep acceptance for my work and my role and what I've tried to do and that it's actually worked in a way and working when you brought up that there were 50 plus. [SPEAKER_04]: It's working. [SPEAKER_01]: professionals in a training recently, that was a game changer for me, morning, that really shifted something, and I was like, yeah, okay, I'm not pushing the boulder up the hill anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's now got some momentum here, and that was very a powerful pivotal moment, which literally just happened a few weeks ago. [SPEAKER_03]: It's still happening. [SPEAKER_03]: I think we've something happening tomorrow. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm in a different zone now.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I agreed to do the podcast, by the way. [SPEAKER_03]: because you're in a different zone, explain that, help people understand that. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, a different zone in terms of feeling more comfortable to share now outside of the sacred cocoon, outside of the trainings.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like there's enough momentum and support power and numbers. [SPEAKER_01]: Now I don't feel like I'm just on a limb out there on my own, play my magic flute. [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, we're plump playing it with you along with my hormone. [SPEAKER_01]: That was very powerful to see 50 people taking notes furiously.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: I felt like... [SPEAKER_03]: I can't actually have to say, and then this is not about ego. [SPEAKER_03]: I come sharing really vulnerability with you because I started out knowing nothing in this field. [SPEAKER_03]: I remember in 2008, you were my supervisor.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was working in the field very new, and I came into supervision and you were doing like diets. [SPEAKER_03]: You were having a sort of role play that were the therapist and even just taking a client for instance through the circle plan. [SPEAKER_03]: And I was so scared. [SPEAKER_03]: I felt like I knew nothing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, [SPEAKER_03]: I was terrified and I've grown and I've learned and I'm proud of where I am now. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm proud of having been a part of this and when I sit back and listen to the students in the breakout rooms or even in the large group session talking about their responses to the material that they're learning, truly I feel pride about being part of it and I feel excited for the people [SPEAKER_03]: who are out there experiencing the trauma and the abuse currently and those who aren't yet coming in for help.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're living it. [SPEAKER_03]: They're in that covert phase. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, a lot of people are out there right now who are not listening to this podcast sadly. [SPEAKER_03]: It's heartbreaking, living in that place of being harmed by a basement that they don't know exists. [SPEAKER_03]: And my excitement [SPEAKER_03]: comes from wanting there to be an infrastructure and something there that's going to hold them.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what this does. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm just so passionate about it. [SPEAKER_01]: One more thing, Marnie, remember I was saying when I started doing the training, I turned to the literature to what's already been established in the field in the literature. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the topics that comes up like we talked about was the controversy in the field for [SPEAKER_01]: what's the best way to diagnose it or not?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is it really a problem? [SPEAKER_01]: Does it really exist? [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing that gave me a lot of confidence in naming the Hornets Nest was when you go to the literature on intimate partner abuse and when you go to the literature on relationship violence and that topic in the field is not new.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the literature says, [SPEAKER_01]: When we look at professional psychologists, people working in the field of intimate partner and relationship abuse and violence, it is a highly controversial field. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of, for example, lawsuits, board complaints. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very heated field to be in as a psychologist in terms of the type of work you do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you work in that field, then you understand in the literature [SPEAKER_01]: how controversial it can be, how difficult it can be. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's very, very much validated in the field. [SPEAKER_03]: Why do you think that is? [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's very heated when you start using the word abuse.

[SPEAKER_01]: People don't like it, abusers don't like it. [SPEAKER_01]: Institutions don't like it if they're aligned and colluding with the abuse. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, the people that are being abused don't like it either, right? [SPEAKER_03]: But, I mean, when you're sick, you go to a doctor or a hospital and you hope that they diagnose you.

[SPEAKER_03]: You hope that they name it. [SPEAKER_03]: They don't talk around it because how are you going to actually treat something if you don't know what you're treating? [SPEAKER_03]: That whole piece about not wanting to name abuse actually really, it makes me angry. [SPEAKER_03]: because I feel like we as mental health professionals have a responsibility to speak the truth, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: We have a responsibility to speak reality. [SPEAKER_03]: We are hired often for the purpose of diagnosis and naming something. [SPEAKER_03]: Oftentimes clients come in and they have no idea what's going on. [SPEAKER_03]: They know that they're feeling something. [SPEAKER_03]: They know that they're experiencing symptoms, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: They know something's wrong or something's off, but they don't know what it is and they often think that they're crazy, right? [SPEAKER_03]: They're questioning themselves and they're coming to us for help. [SPEAKER_03]: And so, I think one of the greatest things that we can do is to name it really clearly.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're feeling crazy because of abuse. [SPEAKER_03]: You've been psychologically manipulated. [SPEAKER_03]: Let's call it what it is. [SPEAKER_03]: That doesn't mean that we are, you know, for anybody who's listening now, again, this can automatically start to bring up feelings for people listening.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now we're talking about abuse and abusers. [SPEAKER_03]: What I would say to anybody who has been the perpetrator of integrity abuse. [SPEAKER_03]: that we don't think that you are bad. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that you're a bad person, but the abuse has to stop. [SPEAKER_03]: And we need to call it what it is.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think as a field, we're doing a disservice when we don't do that. [SPEAKER_03]: That's just my belief. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm Marnie, I think you're bringing up a very important issue. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's basically the whole entire point of my whole model, actually, it's the meaning of the abuse.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because remember, it's sort of ties into everything we just talked about 20 years ago or whatever, just saying the T word was really difficult. [SPEAKER_01]: And that took years just to sort of start naming trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: It went through, you know, many different phases. [SPEAKER_01]: Now I think people call it betrayal trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: I call it deceptive sexuality trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: Just naming the trauma was hard, and now even especially particularly naming the A word in the V word abuse and victim is even more difficult. [SPEAKER_01]: And as a professional and in the field of psychology, once something is established as abuse and we have research and knowledge, and it's legitimized and it ends up in our diagnostic and statistical manual.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then, yes, we absolutely have an obligation in our offices to name it and treat it and there's all kinds of standards and guidelines on how to treat intimate partner abuse in the field that already exist, including psychological abuse. [SPEAKER_01]: The problem is when it comes to infidelity cheating or having a secret sexual life or sex addiction, nobody sees the A word, and that includes the field.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're right, everybody gets hurt because you're not naming a reality that's happening. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a very specific type of abuse that's not being named. [SPEAKER_01]: And let's just step back a bit here. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like this type of abuse only impacts like 0.001 of the human population.

[SPEAKER_01]: A secret sexual basement and having a secret sexual life all over the globe is going on. [SPEAKER_01]: Is it really true that there's such a pervasive obvious huge type of abuse going on and all across the globe and that literally all across the globe? [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody names it or can even see it clearly as abuse yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: And can't really see it yet as systemic gaslighting and a covert operation. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the point that's missing. [SPEAKER_01]: We know a lot about gaslighting. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a military tactic. [SPEAKER_01]: If you look up the word gaslighting, it's a known type of abuse.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when it comes to infidelity and having a secret sexual life, nobody sees it as gaslighting the whole time. [SPEAKER_03]: I know. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's troubling. [SPEAKER_03]: The thing that's so crazy to me about anybody at this stage leaving out the abuse piece when you're dealing with deceptive sexuality is that a common dynamic that I see.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, really all the time is couples coming in for help, but the betraying partner has actually already gotten sober. [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes there's a really long period of sobriety from the sexual behavior, but the couple is still really struggling. [SPEAKER_03]: and the partner is still being harmed in the present without any of the sexual behavior occurring.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that is continuing specifically because it is the abusive piece that has not been named and treated. [SPEAKER_03]: I agree with you 100% about this being a two-prong problem. [SPEAKER_03]: We cannot treat the deceptive sexuality or whatever you want to call it, the sex addiction, the compulsive sexuality, [SPEAKER_03]: That can't be treated without, for at least for working with relationships, you know, and looking at this from a relational perspective.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because when the sexual behavior stops, if the abuse continues, then harm is going to continue to be happening. [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's going to be more trauma and more pain. [SPEAKER_03]: It's very, what's the word to me? [SPEAKER_03]: It's very practical. [SPEAKER_03]: Like it makes so much sense when we're talking about it like this, it doesn't even feel complicated.

[SPEAKER_03]: It feels so simple. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have a two-part problem, the sex part, and the dishonesty part, and you stabilize the sex part, that's great, and then if you're still being dishonest and gaslighting, that's not great, that's still gonna cause trauma and harm until it stops, and that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: Stop the abuse, and you have less symptoms. [SPEAKER_01]: Don't stop the abuse. [SPEAKER_01]: Symptoms continues. [SPEAKER_03]: Right, it's so simple, right? [SPEAKER_03]: It's really simple. [SPEAKER_01]: you're training could be much shorter a mark it could be like in a whatever works i'll put it into a sound bite if it works i'll spend four days with you if it works i'll spend 25 years with you if it works [SPEAKER_03]: I would do the same.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know what I love this? [SPEAKER_01]: I love that at this point we're breaking it down into simplicity to the simplest terms of the line and stop gaslighting and intentionally manipulating people's reality and just speak truth that one treatment track and then yes, handle the sexual behaviors and get those sorted out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yep. [SPEAKER_03]: I love this conversation so much. [SPEAKER_03]: I absolutely love it. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: Let me ask you a question, Martinie. [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you love it? [SPEAKER_03]: I love it because I hate to say that there's so much pain and suffering out there, cheating and fidelity, sex addiction, secret sexual basement, it's so prevalent, it's an epidemic in our world.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's actually getting worse, not better. [SPEAKER_03]: And so, [SPEAKER_03]: Because of the fact that I think it wasn't treated effectively in the past or as effectively as it could have been I'm excited and I love it because I feel like I'm participating in offering better treatment options and giving more information to people so that this can make sense to them so they don't feel crazy so they feel like oh there's a reason that I'm feeling the way I'm feeling and there's people that are naming it and there's places I can go to get help for it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess that's why I love it. [SPEAKER_03]: I love just being a part of that process. [SPEAKER_01]: So when people go to treatment for sex addiction or infidelity, we need a dishonesty plan. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the diagnosis. [SPEAKER_01]: dishonesty and systemic gaslighting for 20 years or whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's the plan for that? [SPEAKER_03]: Are you asking me that? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm asking all of us, where's the treatment plan for the dishonesty part? [SPEAKER_01]: I think we've developed some good plans for the sexual behavior part, but I'm just challenging all of us. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to keep it simple, where's the plan for dishonesty?

[SPEAKER_01]: You need that on the treatment plan. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think that's exactly what your model includes and I think that's what all of these professionals who are now your students are learning and that's what I've learned. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'll throw out there just one little tool about part of that plan, the dishonesty plan and I use it all the time with clients.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that is when somebody is working on the integrity piece and they are sober from the sexual acting out, but the dishonesty piece is still hard and challenging when they violate a boundary, when they do something that causes a relational rupture, when they violate their own relational boundaries, things that they've set up for themselves that they want to do to be in alignment with their values, I will have them use an incident sheet or a boundary violation sheet that walks them through what happened.

[SPEAKER_03]: How did you get there? [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, what were the thoughts before during an after and most important? [SPEAKER_03]: What are you going to do differently in the future? [SPEAKER_03]: That's going to prevent you from having the same outcome, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And then take it a step further.

[SPEAKER_03]: I actually encourage often my clients to ask their partner if their partner wants to hear that or see that so that they know. [SPEAKER_03]: sort of what they've learned. [SPEAKER_03]: I never say show it to the partner without asking the partner because I think that some partners might not want to see it, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Or they might not be in a place to see it, or they might say take it to your sponsor or take it to your group. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to see it, just do it differently. [SPEAKER_03]: But many partners want to see that. [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, that's a very clear cut concrete example of how you integrate the dishonesty piece into treatment.

[SPEAKER_01]: really excellent morning. [SPEAKER_01]: Also another tool just quickly in terms of if dishonesty is the diagnosis, what's one way to start to think about intervening and helping people is this concept of voicing up, which is basically consciously helping someone who's used their voice for intentionally manipulating reality, IMR.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you've, for many, many years, [SPEAKER_01]: Have had a secret sexual life, you've been using your voice to intentionally manipulate reality, even if that means withholding life altering information and not speaking. [SPEAKER_01]: But if you've had a basement, if you've had a secret sexual life, then the abusers have been using their voice for intentionally manipulating the partner, the people upstairs, their reality.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want to help people speak honestly. [SPEAKER_01]: Every word that comes out of their mouth, the goal, it's not going to be easy. [SPEAKER_01]: The goal is to progressively help someone learn how to be honest and particularly when they speak and in their voice because the partners brain being a victim of IMR is going to be scanning and hyper vigilant to MI hearing vibrations of [SPEAKER_01]: IAR intentionally accurate authentic reality or IMR intentionally manipulated reality and literally the survivors brain is scanning for IMR versus IAR in their abusers voice.

[SPEAKER_01]: First and foremost, so even for relational healing, but in particular to help the person who's been systemically lying and gaslighting, [SPEAKER_01]: One of the biggest things is we have to help that person speak honestly and how do you help someone who's been dishonest, be honest now and in particular in their voice.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I use the term voice up, it's just a conscious exercise of helping someone consciously deliberately speak IAR, intentionally accurate authentic reality and do it daily. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're flustered teeth, you speak a little conscious IAR and that muscle grows and gets [SPEAKER_01]: If you've had a basement that muscle is weak and underdeveloped speaking IAR.

[SPEAKER_03]: What does that look like practically for somebody if they wanted to do that, I get in the habit of really like the foster teeth and then they speak IAR. [SPEAKER_03]: What is an example of how that might look? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's say every morning like going to a 12 step meeting, they meet with their group of men that they meet with every morning for, let's say a half hour meeting and they do a voice up group, which means they get into extraordinary space, one person grabs the talking stick.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is no chit chat or any of that. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just one person grabs the talking stick, they're the teacher. [SPEAKER_01]: They find their internal reality inside themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: Their subjective reality, which I call their ego, everyone has an internal subjective reality.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the place they want to come from and speak from is what's going on inside me as a human and attach that reality and experience to their human voice. [SPEAKER_01]: and projected out, that's a physical exercise. [SPEAKER_01]: You can't think your way through that. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to literally attach your internal experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: The best you can attach it to your human voice, the instrument, and project it out with these other humans in a vulnerable way. [SPEAKER_01]: And the exercise for the person who's doing this is to consciously deliberately speak IAR, intentionally accurate, authentic, reality truth. [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody else is in a high state of bottom up learning.

[SPEAKER_01]: What is that? [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very specific type of learning. [SPEAKER_01]: When we listen to human voices speak truth, very different than reading a journal. [SPEAKER_01]: Much more powerful in many ways and deeper in some ways. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what everybody else gets out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then when that person's done one or two minutes doesn't have to be long. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe take a deep breath everybody to reset and the next person grabbed a talking stick. [SPEAKER_01]: find your internal experience attached to your human voice. [SPEAKER_01]: That's your instrument.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the muscle that's weak right there. [SPEAKER_01]: And then boom, do a few reps and get a few minutes out of conscious IAR. [SPEAKER_01]: And let's say those guys do that every day for a year. [SPEAKER_01]: That muscle is going to be developed. [SPEAKER_01]: You can't get big biceps in the day.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: You got to go to the gym and work that muscle out. [SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: I put my patients on a workout program just like going to the gym. [SPEAKER_01]: Hey guys, we got to go to the gym today. [SPEAKER_01]: We got to exercise our voice. [SPEAKER_01]: We got to practice IAR.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why? [SPEAKER_01]: Because you've used your voice for IMR. [SPEAKER_01]: Now we got to really learn how to use your voice for IAR. [SPEAKER_01]: And your partner and family depend on it, by the way. [SPEAKER_03]: That's so true. [SPEAKER_03]: It's so, so, so, so true. [SPEAKER_03]: And along with that, something that I think needs to also be taught is, you know, many or most even of the men who have a dishonesty problem are scared of sharing the truth because they're afraid they're going to get rejected, they'll be left, they won't be liked, they're going to hurt somebody, all of those things, and [SPEAKER_03]: The reality is that in order to use your voice, there has to be, with that an acceptance of the fact that yes, you might hurt somebody.

[SPEAKER_03]: Someone might not like what you're saying. [SPEAKER_03]: So there is a releasing or letting go or detaching. [SPEAKER_03]: Attaching to your voice means on some level detaching from the outcome. [SPEAKER_03]: If someone's going to be mad, they're going to be mad. [SPEAKER_03]: But we still have a responsibility to speak the truth.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that that's something that a lot of human beings have a hard time with. [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many reasons why we have all learned to intentionally manipulate reality and a lot of the people I work with since there have been born and little boys or girls or whatever they have survived by intentionally manipulating reality.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some people have survived by lying all their life or presenting a mask all their life or [SPEAKER_01]: hiding certain information from certain people, being afraid, not having enough courage, not enough self-esteem, not wanting consequences, always learning to avoid consequences and erode your integrity.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many reasons why people lie and don't speak the truth and it takes a lot of courage to be intentionally accurate and authentic, which is why in the exercise I gave you, [SPEAKER_01]: It's men getting together and getting out of ordinary space and getting into extraordinary space.

[SPEAKER_01]: and then learning to really consciously with each other, bottom up, learn from each other, and consciously develop this muscle and work out this muscle of an highly different vibrational space, and a highly focused way, turning inward and learning to attach your internal authentic experience to your voice and put it out to the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: So vulnerable, so delicate because of everything I just said, [SPEAKER_01]: Right, so it's a very, it's very, very brave by the way. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, we have a new program at helping couples heal. [SPEAKER_03]: We're doing our second cohort and it's called literally intentionally brave for men.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's all about integrity. [SPEAKER_03]: And we're saying intentionally brave because exactly like you just said, it is a very clear, conscious choice that you need to make, right, that you're intentionally going to move from the manipulation to an authentic voice. [SPEAKER_01]: IMRDA IAR.

[SPEAKER_01]: Those are actually vibrations. [SPEAKER_01]: One promotes disease. [SPEAKER_01]: One promotes health. [SPEAKER_01]: IMR promotes disease. [SPEAKER_01]: IAR promotes human health. [SPEAKER_01]: IAR and IMR can be detected in the human voice. [SPEAKER_01]: There's already part of our brain that's scanning the human voice for truth.

[SPEAKER_01]: That already exists. [SPEAKER_01]: We live in a culture or society where we're being subjected to IMR instead of IAR. [SPEAKER_01]: that's going to promote disease versus health. [SPEAKER_03]: That's such a great note to end on thinking about how huge this all is. [SPEAKER_03]: We could talk about it and I think some people don't recognize the depth of trauma that this causes.

[SPEAKER_03]: But having you just say it literally is disease versus health. [SPEAKER_03]: It can be looked at as life or death, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Our emotional and physical health are impacted very much when we are experiencing an [SPEAKER_03]: who has been experiencing that. [SPEAKER_03]: I actually really hope that from this conversation, you're going to take that there's a path forward.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's treatment out there. [SPEAKER_03]: It's being named now. [SPEAKER_03]: And I hope that people are taking some hope from it because when you ask me, oh, why do I love it? [SPEAKER_03]: That's actually the reason. [SPEAKER_03]: It's because I have hope that from all of this new learning and all of the new research and all of this, that there's now a lot more help.

[SPEAKER_03]: and treatment available for those who are suffering. [SPEAKER_03]: And therefore, a lot of health, you know, a lot of people moving away from disease and moving towards health. [SPEAKER_03]: And that to me is very exciting. [SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty profound, right? [SPEAKER_01]: I am our, I am our promotes disease.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am our promotes human health. [SPEAKER_01]: Another way of saying it is honesty and truth, promotes health and dishonesty and lies, promote disease. [SPEAKER_01]: Not only just interpersonally or intimate relationships, not only about sex, but on a social level, community level, cultural level, global level, that postulate dishonesty promotes disease and honesty promotes health applies, so it has implications way beyond infidelity, it has implications to our lives and our children and our future.

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, this has been a really enlightening, amazing conversation that I have really, really enjoyed, I'm excited that I'm going to be bringing you back to talk about another really important topic, which is the secret sexual basement and how that is constructed and also how it's deconstructed.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we will get together and schedule that and I know our listeners will be getting a lot out of these conversations that we're having. [SPEAKER_01]: Alright, thank you, Marnie. [SPEAKER_01]: This has really been fun. [SPEAKER_01]: Like we acknowledged in this podcast, 20 something year journey and story.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we just talked about. [SPEAKER_01]: I really honor it. [SPEAKER_01]: I honor your role in it and everyone else's role in it, including the Hornets snatched out there. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: and let's take a deep breath and end this beautiful conversation and extraordinary space and allow ourselves to shift gears.

[SPEAKER_01]: Something maybe not so heavy and go back into ordinary space. [SPEAKER_01]: You're ready on the count of three. [SPEAKER_01]: One, two, three inhale and exhale. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Marnie. [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Omar. [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, everybody, for being here. [SPEAKER_04]: We'll talk soon.

[SPEAKER_04]: Take care. [SPEAKER_04]: Bye. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

[SPEAKER_00]: are help as available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.

93. Unscripted Truths: A Candid Conversation with Dr. Omar Minwalla

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