94. Finding The Way Through with Jeanne Vattuone and Tim Stein

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcasts was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Huel, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Huel. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: This is Marty and today I am very grateful and honored to have with me two colleagues.

1:31 [SPEAKER_02]: I've got Jeannie and Tim, Jeannie and Tim co-founded Willow Tree, which is a clinical and coaching facility in Northern California, correct? [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. [SPEAKER_02]: And they've co-founded in 2008, which is 17 years ago, which I just learned myself and I think that's really pretty extraordinary.

1:49 [SPEAKER_02]: and they treat both addicts and partners and they work very much from a trauma-informed perspective. [SPEAKER_02]: Jeannie was the former president of AppSat, the Association of Partners of Sex Attics, trauma specialists. [SPEAKER_02]: She's no longer a president, but she and him are both certified clinical partner specialists.

2:08 [SPEAKER_02]: And Tim is also the board president of the American Foundation for Addiction Research, which is also referred to or called a far. [SPEAKER_02]: And they both have years of experience in the field. [SPEAKER_02]: And I am just really honored to have you both here. [SPEAKER_02]: They also just released a book recently, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that.

2:28 [SPEAKER_02]: But more so about what's been [SPEAKER_02]: to write this book and then also in terms of how they approach their clients in the work they do. [SPEAKER_02]: So welcome, Jeannie and Tim. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you so much for having us. [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

2:45 [SPEAKER_02]: So where shall we begin? [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't you tell us a little bit about maybe the evolution of Willow Tree? [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: This is how Tim and Jeannie met. [SPEAKER_03]: I had recently moved to this area and our youngest sons were in preschool together. [SPEAKER_03]: My family, my husband and I and our children had recently moved, so therefore, of course, I'd moved my practice and found out Tim was an MFT in the area.

3:09 [SPEAKER_03]: And so when it was time for me to start back to clinical practice, he and I chatted and we were in a consultation group together and Tim started talking about sex addiction. [SPEAKER_03]: And I had worked trauma in addiction, but I had not worked with sex addiction. [SPEAKER_03]: And he was telling me about the difficulties in working with that population and their betrayed partners.

3:29 [SPEAKER_03]: And now this is dating us. [SPEAKER_03]: So the co-addict model was the model of prevalence for betrayed partners. [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, I don't know what a co-addict is, but I've been doing trauma work for [SPEAKER_03]: and that sounds like trauma symptomology to me. [SPEAKER_03]: And Tim was like, oh, I've not heard of that.

3:49 [SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about it. [SPEAKER_03]: And then we started sharing cases. [SPEAKER_03]: What would you add to that story, Tim? [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I mean, that's pretty accurate. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the thing that I will say is that I had sent partners because I didn't know what to do with them.

4:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I got into this work from my own recovery. [SPEAKER_01]: And so my passion hasn't been helping people to find the path of recovery and sobriety. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I love helping partners these days. [SPEAKER_01]: But in the early days, I had no idea what to do with them. [SPEAKER_01]: And they're wanting to be involved in [SPEAKER_01]: control things and be in the sessions and I didn't know what to do with them and they were driving me nuts and I'd sent some partners off to a couple other therapists and it had gone so badly and so when Gini and I started talking and I started sending partners to her it was a miraculous shit [SPEAKER_01]: when she was working with them and bringing a trauma-informed perspective to what they were experiencing what they were going through, and it shifted my practice with the addicts and the outcome that we were seeing with addicts and partners in their relationships so dramatically, almost overnight.

4:48 [SPEAKER_02]: That makes so much sense to me, and I think Genie and I, even I share this in common, when I came into the field, also it was all about the co-act model, co-dependency co-addict, but I was working right off the bat. [SPEAKER_02]: My first job as an intern was with Dr. Minwala, and he was very much already sort of pioneering that whole partner trauma model.

5:07 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's what I learned right off the bat. [SPEAKER_02]: I never understood and it didn't make sense to me when I would hear co-addict. [SPEAKER_02]: That was just where I came from. [SPEAKER_02]: Tim, I totally understand how from your experience, it would have been very different.

5:17 [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to even point out that even the way that you said, you know, you didn't know what to do with these people, right? [SPEAKER_02]: The partners, I didn't think they were wanted to be controlling. [SPEAKER_02]: They wanted to do this. [SPEAKER_02]: And that that is the language that was so traumatizing.

5:29 [SPEAKER_02]: These women, and sometimes men, but most often women, [SPEAKER_02]: still talk about how that was their experience. [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, what a great reminder. [SPEAKER_02]: You even just saying that about how these people were treated. [SPEAKER_02]: And think about it if you didn't know what to do with them.

5:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine how they felt. [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't have any idea what to do. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And that was the model of the time. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. [SPEAKER_03]: So we were all trying as Tim and I got into CSAT training before me, but that was what was being taught because that's what the field knew.

5:59 [SPEAKER_03]: It just didn't always fit for me. [SPEAKER_03]: And so Tim and I were taking what we were learning and some very important foundational learning and then tinkering with it a bit. [SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, Willow tree has been trauma-informed our entire practice working with ethics and partners.

6:18 [SPEAKER_01]: But we've also, I mean, there's been a huge evolution. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Genie and I were working together. [SPEAKER_01]: I started running groups very early on with the addicts. [SPEAKER_01]: And they have evolved and they've actually been a constant theme in the work that we do at Willow Tree for the entire time we've been here.

6:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But eventually, we got so busy in our own practices that we needed other people. [SPEAKER_01]: So we started bringing other people in. [SPEAKER_01]: And as the groups that we were running continued and as that's the number of people that we were working with continued, [SPEAKER_01]: that we were using needing to shift and mostly what it was was we needed to start incorporating not just education about how to get sober, how to stay sober, but we needed to start including education about hey here's what's going on with the partner here's the partner sensitivity piece here's how the trauma is impacting them as we started to incorporate that and that's been an [SPEAKER_01]: addicts and the recovery that they lean into.

7:18 [SPEAKER_01]: We see a different motivation in a different way that they lean into, sobriety, not that it's perfect, and yet people that stumble and are blindly trying to find their way through. [SPEAKER_01]: And some people do not want to take a drip of the water, no matter how much you're leading them to it.

7:33 [SPEAKER_01]: But as we started including more part of sensitive information in the curriculum, we started to see a real outcome difference in the work that we were doing. [SPEAKER_01]: And that has evolved over the years, which is really what the book that we [SPEAKER_01]: Does the book we wrote is a work book for people to help them get sober, meaning saying that's a variety of leaner recovery, but the piece that really motivated us to write this book, there wasn't any curriculum out there, there wasn't a book out there that we could lean into for the addicts as they're doing their own work that incorporated the understanding of [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what's going on on the other side of your relationship.

8:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the partner-sensitive information for you to know that will help you in your own sobriety recovery journey, but will also help you as your supporting your partner and their healing work and will help your relationship to heal if that's where you two choose to go. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, but I actually feel very proud about the incorporation.

8:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, feel really good about the book in general. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's very, very solid. [SPEAKER_02]: Will you tell us what the name of the book is, please? [SPEAKER_01]: The book is called Finding the Way Through. [SPEAKER_01]: It's got a fancy little subtitle called book for sex and pornography addiction, sobriety recovery and partner betrayal sensitivity.

8:47 [SPEAKER_01]: But it is a 26 chapter step by step, walk you through understanding your addiction pattern and how to get sober, how to stay sober. [SPEAKER_01]: and introduction into what does recovery look like and like I said throughout that book we're incorporating partner-sensitive information on what's the partner's process like what's impacting them, what does their healing journey look like, what can you do to lean in, what they might be reacting to and why that makes sense.

9:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And why that makes sense? [SPEAKER_03]: That's the part that it's so important like Martin you were saying earlier, where was the void in the field that created this space for this book? [SPEAKER_03]: There was nowhere else where we had addiction focused, incorporating betrayal trauma and relational healing because to become sober and then work in recovery, but yet not be paying attention to the relational needs, not seeing the system's perspective.

9:42 [SPEAKER_03]: That material wasn't really out there, or isn't out there, and yet is so important, and really strengthens the subriding recovery work of an addict. [SPEAKER_03]: When they are also tending to the interpersonal needs and trust ruptures with their betrayed partner, it really becomes such a stronger foundation of subriding work into recovery.

10:05 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, subriding is what you don't do recovery is what you do. [SPEAKER_03]: And so I have to bring those two together, which really strengthens our addict programs. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm certain that it does. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I've been doing a couple's workshop for I started in 2010, I think.

10:19 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's evolved over the years, of course, with new information. [SPEAKER_02]: But one thing that's always been there is this term incorporating the partner trauma model into the addict's treatment as soon as possible. [SPEAKER_02]: And that is really what was missing. [SPEAKER_02]: And I hear in what you are both saying that that seems to be sort of an important theme of your book.

10:39 [SPEAKER_02]: Like doing just that, like recognizing that the attic needs to do a lot of their own work, but that if they're trying to heal a relationship that's been traumatized by their betrayal and their addiction. [SPEAKER_02]: That piece, the relational piece, the harm done to the partner, has to be incorporated and this is the important part, not at some point, right, not like down the road or when we get to it or when he's ready.

11:03 [SPEAKER_02]: But no, this needs to kind of happen side by side. [SPEAKER_03]: It's so true, and that's what we noticed right away. [SPEAKER_03]: Tim and I weigh before COVID, so this probably eight years now. [SPEAKER_03]: We would speak at the Community Center, and it would be a three-hour talk. [SPEAKER_03]: And half that time was, this is what addiction is.

11:23 [SPEAKER_03]: This is what it looks like. [SPEAKER_03]: This is what recovery. [SPEAKER_03]: This is what sobriety. [SPEAKER_03]: And then the other part is, and this is what trauma looks like. [SPEAKER_03]: And betrayal and the phases of healing and the needs for the betrayed. [SPEAKER_03]: Because both people need to know what's happening for them.

11:37 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: But if they're going to be possibly in a relationship to learn about the other also really helps the system better understand what's going on. [SPEAKER_03]: So it's not the trade being controlling. [SPEAKER_03]: It's betrayed saying, hey, I don't feel safe. [SPEAKER_03]: How can what can we do to help me feel safe?

11:56 [SPEAKER_03]: So that I could maybe stay for a while and see if we want this relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: But they have to [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when I teach boundaries, and this has been for as long as I've been doing this work, I'm very clear in helping the betrayed partner formulate the words.

12:12 [SPEAKER_02]: In order for me to feel safe, based on what I have learned to date, right about your addiction or about the betrayal, this is what I need to feel safe. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I say to the betrayer, [SPEAKER_02]: Your partner is not trying to control you. [SPEAKER_02]: Your partner never wanted to have to sit down and write up boundaries, right?

12:28 [SPEAKER_02]: They had hoped when they got married likely that they would never have to like put into writing things that seemed so innately understood, right, like these sort of unspoken promises. [SPEAKER_02]: So they don't want to be doing it, but you need to listen to it from a place of they're asking for this in order to feel safe.

12:45 [SPEAKER_02]: Not, I'm asking for this because I want to control you, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I'm asking for this because I want to be your policeman or your parent or any of those things. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that really focusing on that safety piece is hugely important. [SPEAKER_03]: And to be able to reframe that and teach that so that the lens of control gets put to the side.

13:04 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Tim, what do you say? [SPEAKER_01]: I was just going to say that we have for a very long time talked about and I'm kind of in the tortures for telling addicts, I'd say I'm never going to tell you that your partner is always going to be kind, is always going to be appropriate, is always going to be grounded and solid and from a neutral perspective that people are going to say that was a very appropriate way to handle that.

13:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Never going to tell you that because they're going to be times when the partner in their trauma is not going to be, but importantly, if you understand their trauma and their journey [SPEAKER_01]: While you can look at their behavior and say, that's not an appropriate response. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a kind response.

13:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It might be an anger or mean response. [SPEAKER_01]: But I can understand why it made sense to them in that moment. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's an important distinction. [SPEAKER_01]: I know that Genie and I, both of us have been trained on both the addicts side and the partner side. [SPEAKER_01]: And we feel very strongly that anybody who's working for us is going to have training and experience and knowledge on both sides of that equation.

14:02 [SPEAKER_01]: and like Jeannie often says, we think it's really important that we can speak both languages. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we've often referred to ourselves as a partner sensitive program for addicts. [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're also an addict sensitive program for partners. [SPEAKER_02]: And love hearing that.

14:16 [SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing to hear. [SPEAKER_01]: Because there is this piece for partners and they're in their trauma and they're paying and they just want it to stop and sometimes they don't understand, well what's going on on the attic side and why does his journey as much as it looks herky jerky?

14:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Why is that actually solid? [SPEAKER_01]: And why is that what we expect at this point? [SPEAKER_01]: And that's actually good work even though they're not where you want them to be. [SPEAKER_01]: And vice versa, you know, like being able to talk with the attic, I just had a conversation with a couple of the other day and we were, [SPEAKER_01]: talking about where is the partner and where's the couple in their betrayal trauma healing process and being able to talk about safety stabilization versus recovery, remembrance and grieving and sort of like moving into reconnection, and being able to sort of put it in that kind of language and talk about the trauma healing and the addicts journey and how all this stuff fits together, having both of those languages available is just so helpful in the journey.

15:13 [SPEAKER_02]: I agree, 100%, just like you guys, I was a CSAT first. [SPEAKER_02]: I worked in a inpatient psychiatric hospital when I was an intern back in like 2007, maybe, and it was definitely all focused on addiction. [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, it was a hospital that Pat Carns created the program, and then I started working with Dr. Minwala and got right into working with, you know, the partner trauma stuff, and then I was actually on the board.

15:36 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you know, Jeannie of AppSats when it first. [SPEAKER_02]: started. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very involved with partners. [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel the same way. [SPEAKER_02]: I have such an enormous well of compassion and empathy for both the partner. [SPEAKER_02]: and the addict and I also want to say when you were talking to him a little while ago about helping for instance to frame a partner's response to the addict so that he or she will understand, right?

15:58 [SPEAKER_02]: Like yes, this might not be the nicest kindest response, but I think it's important for you to understand what the traumatized brain of your partner is going through because that can create not just the understanding, but that can create empathy and compassion. [SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, conversely, [SPEAKER_02]: When working with the addict, I think you were saying something like this too, I will also try to help the partner understand the addict's experience, whether that just be how they're trying to live with realizing that they've been completely out of alignment with who they thought that they were and their experiencing tremendous grief or helping them understand and conceptualize what their trauma was.

16:37 [SPEAKER_02]: That's another way of helping the partner develop empathy and compassion for their partner. [SPEAKER_02]: So it does go both ways. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very important. [SPEAKER_01]: We are doing a lot of work, especially with addicts about walking them into their emotional presence. [SPEAKER_01]: And we are complex emotional beings.

16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: We do not feel just one thing at a time. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, introducing the idea that I can be angry and frustrated and disappointed in my partner and the way that they're responding. [SPEAKER_01]: And I can simultaneously have compassion and empathy for what brought that on, that I can hold both of those opposite emotions simultaneously, and then I can figure out what I want to do with it.

17:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to just lean into my first instinct and react. [SPEAKER_01]: I can sit with this larger, emotional picture, and I can choose how I want to respond to it. [SPEAKER_03]: We think really that education is the key. [SPEAKER_03]: It is the key is one of the foundational building blocks to developing the understanding of perspective.

17:34 [SPEAKER_03]: So, for them to understand that what let's say betrayed partners' reaction is, I have to be knowledgeable about why that trauma response makes sense. [SPEAKER_03]: Then I can take some perspective of, okay, from their perspective, hearing that X, Y, Z happened, and they are having this reaction makes sense.

17:52 [SPEAKER_03]: From perspective, we can move into empathy. [SPEAKER_03]: So these things are all lined up, education, perspective, and empathy, and that's helping build those interpersonal skills, which a lot of our addicts struggle with. [SPEAKER_03]: And so again, by educating, then we're helping them in their interpersonal relationships with their recovery peers, which is helping keep them stronger and sobriety, and their significant person, whoever that is for them, and helping heal.

18:21 [SPEAKER_03]: So it all starts with education and developing that perspective. [SPEAKER_02]: I have a question about the book, actually, two questions. [SPEAKER_02]: Would you say it's written for specifically the addict? [SPEAKER_02]: Is it something that's appropriate for the partner to read? [SPEAKER_02]: And is it something that you would encourage a couple to work through together?

18:37 [SPEAKER_02]: You did say it's a workbook. [SPEAKER_01]: Jamie, this is your question. [SPEAKER_03]: A smiling, he smiling at me, and this is why. [SPEAKER_03]: It is written to the addict, okay? [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, throughout the book, you will not read a he and you will not read a she. [SPEAKER_03]: So gender neutral, all that is gone.

18:55 [SPEAKER_03]: We also wanted to include a variety of experiences. [SPEAKER_03]: So you're going to hear all kinds of different names and all kinds of different experiences in our case vignettes, for example. [SPEAKER_03]: because we really wanted people to feel welcomed by this book and connected to this book.

19:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Every chapter has a section about partners. [SPEAKER_03]: We call it the partner sensitivity section. [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's really teaching, hey, this might be happening for your betrayed partner. [SPEAKER_03]: Here's how you might bring it up. [SPEAKER_03]: here what could be some reactions.

19:28 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's written to the addict. [SPEAKER_03]: However, what we've learned since it's been published is that a lot of betrayed partners are buying it too because they want to know what is it like and how my represented in the work focused on the addiction. [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing tends smiling at me because it's one of the surprising things for me.

19:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Someone asked what's the most surprising piece since you've released this book and I said that couples are using it. [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of couples who they use it as part of their weekly connection is they'll read part of it together or read the partner sensitivity section together. [SPEAKER_03]: Is this your experience which is my experience?

20:05 [SPEAKER_03]: How do you feel about that? [SPEAKER_03]: Let me share more about that. [SPEAKER_03]: They're using it as a way to communicate. [SPEAKER_03]: So yes, it's written towards the addict, but a lot of a trader picking it up and a lot [SPEAKER_02]: beautiful. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm always looking for ways to provide couples with an opportunity for connection, particularly at the time in their healing process where they're needing something a bit more structured, where they're really needing that.

20:28 [SPEAKER_02]: There's not as much safety or comfort and maybe not the best communication skills. [SPEAKER_02]: So being able to take something like this book and use it as an opportunity for connection. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that's really wonderful. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think one of the pleasant surprises with, especially the partner sensitivity sections is like I said, we wrote those for the addicts to better understand the partners, but we find that many partners, even though they've lived the experience, understanding what they've gone through isn't always forefront for them.

20:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So reading through the partner sensitivity sections, for many partners has that experience of, oh, that's what I went through. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why I keep asking this question. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why this is what I want. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I get it. [SPEAKER_02]: But it makes their own experience make sense.

21:11 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the one thing I hear over and over at when I do education with the trade partners is they say I felt so crazy like it does make sense. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Like so many. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Because I knew, but you know, or I felt this, but I thought I was going crazy, but this is exactly my experience.

21:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I think. [SPEAKER_02]: Sharing that information and giving both partners the opportunity to conceptualize what's actually happened and why it makes sense is just so important. [SPEAKER_03]: So much of this book comes out of work that Tim and I, we are often saying to our people.

21:43 [SPEAKER_03]: We are often saying to our clients. [SPEAKER_03]: And so in this way, we kind of know that some of this stuff is tried and true because we've been using it for decades. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm thinking of so many different partners in city sections or add exceptions. [SPEAKER_03]: We consistently have been sharing this.

21:58 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's made sense to a lot of people. [SPEAKER_03]: But yes, I have the trade partners feel very validated. [SPEAKER_03]: That is my experience. [SPEAKER_03]: I hadn't thought of it that way before. [SPEAKER_01]: And this book actually said comes out of our work with people and a lot of the things that we're resonating.

22:12 [SPEAKER_01]: One of my favorite stories is even the title of this book comes out of our work with people. [SPEAKER_01]: We were bouncing all different kinds of titles. [SPEAKER_01]: What are we going to call this thing around? [SPEAKER_01]: And Gene and I were running a trauma workshop and the phrase that kept coming out throughout the trauma workshop was, you know, we're finding our way through.

22:30 [SPEAKER_01]: We're finding our way through this. [SPEAKER_01]: We're finding our way through that and I need to find my way through [SPEAKER_01]: And it was sort of like with those higher power moments of, okay, I guess that's the name of this book. [SPEAKER_02]: The name found you. [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

22:44 [SPEAKER_02]: You found us in fun. [SPEAKER_02]: The name. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I just turned to Tim. [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, apparently, that's the name. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I love it. [SPEAKER_02]: Actually hearing it in that context, it is even more powerful because you're right.

22:55 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just something like you go from A to B or A to B to C D, whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not something you just get through. [SPEAKER_02]: You have to find your way through. [SPEAKER_03]: And those were the words that clients were using that particular day. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to find my way through to this.

23:09 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to find my way through and I'm like, yes, yes. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and it's such a process. [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to ask you to talk a bit more about the vignettes you mentioned in the clinical vignettes and that you're speaking to lots of different people in different experiences.

23:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you maybe share, you know, maybe thinking about one of your clients and how they could benefit, for instance, from reading one of the vignettes. [SPEAKER_02]: What did he get from it? [SPEAKER_02]: What's kind of the clinical value in that. [SPEAKER_03]: Tim, I'm going to ask you on this one, but can you also explain how we wrote them in a chronological point of view?

23:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the vignettes are written from a perspective of addicts at different points in their recovery journey. [SPEAKER_01]: So every vignette talks about a ziatic male female, are they married, single, partnered, heterosexual, homosexual, what's the dynamic of the person being in that? [SPEAKER_01]: And if they have a partner, what's the partner's name?

24:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we write the vignette from that perspective. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a bunch of them that are in zero to six months of recovery and then there's a bunch that are like six to 18 months of recovery and then there's a bunch that are 18 plus and so we wrote them we were specifically wanting to talk about nicely where the addict is in the particular recovery journey.

24:24 [SPEAKER_01]: more bluntly, we wanted to be able to highlight the missteps and sort of the bone-headed stuff that adding different points in their recovery journey that they're going to learn from and that are kind of a normal bone-headed things because they just haven't been in the path that long and they don't know not to do that yet.

24:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And so some of those things that we are highlighting that we want people to learn about have to do with their own recovery journey, their own sobriety journey. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them have to do with missteps with leaning into a partner, one that comes to mind for me is a vignette that talks about an attic reacting when his partner questions his sobriety.

25:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, I've been sober for a long, and I don't know when all that kind of stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: And then in the vignette he goes and talks to his sponsor and his sponsor says, [SPEAKER_01]: You were kind of off last week, you know, you you have, you know, relapsed a couple times in the last two, three months, she didn't say you'd relapse.

25:18 [SPEAKER_01]: She said something felt like it wasn't quite right and you gas lit her by telling her that nothing was right and twisting this back and making her the person goes on there. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd be able to like, oh, okay, and how many addicts haven't done that? [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, partners hate it, and we don't encourage it, of course, but almost all addicts do that at some point, they have that reactive thing, because they're so new to the journey.

25:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we've really made a point of trying to highlight, you know, what are some of the successes that you're going to expect at different stages in your recovery journey? [SPEAKER_01]: And what are some of the challenges that might be showing up and having examples of people having success with that as well as people sort of walking into it and learning from the mistake?

26:04 [SPEAKER_02]: Would you guys say that this book is for people that are earlier on? [SPEAKER_02]: Is it a cut off of where you would say you have a client or a couple and you'd say, no, I don't think the book would be helpful for you. [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to say it's for everybody.

26:16 [SPEAKER_03]: There's certainly the first part of the book really focuses on sobriety and red flags to sobriety and having awareness and where is your portrayed partner in this early stage and where are you in these earlier stages? [SPEAKER_03]: And then it moves into the idea of, okay, now that you've got that figured out a bit, let's get to the other part.

26:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I would say the later half of the book is really recovery focus. [SPEAKER_03]: What is emotional fluency? [SPEAKER_03]: Is anger a part of your addiction pattern? [SPEAKER_03]: What does self-care look like? [SPEAKER_03]: you know, what is moderation? [SPEAKER_03]: How are you going to bring that into your life?

26:52 [SPEAKER_03]: Where do you struggle with it? [SPEAKER_03]: Who are you going to talk to? [SPEAKER_03]: How are you going to hold yourself accountable? [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so all these more recovery topics, as well as relational healing, and how do you get to be addicted anyways? [SPEAKER_03]: What are the roots of that?

27:05 [SPEAKER_03]: Where does that come from? [SPEAKER_03]: Let's trace that. [SPEAKER_03]: What are some wounds that may be there that you hadn't seen before? [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's got this first half more subradi-focused and second half recovery-focused deeper work and initiation. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

27:21 [SPEAKER_03]: Would you say it any differently, Tim? [SPEAKER_01]: I won. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think the book is written for people who are early in the recovery or who are starting. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the book is designed for. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's how you put your program together. [SPEAKER_01]: Here's how you walk into that.

27:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So people that are just realizing that they've got an addiction or that their behaviors problematic or they're just stepping in somewhere. [SPEAKER_01]: This is a great curriculum to help them get some traction. [SPEAKER_01]: However, anybody who feels like their program could use a tune-up could benefit from this.

27:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually through a far, I'm running a group for therapists who are in their own recovery, and we're walking through this book too, and because I'm walking through them, I am working through the book. [SPEAKER_01]: and it's a surreal experience to be working through a book that I wrote.

28:10 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just got done working through chapters four through a six, which are still very much understanding building sobriety. [SPEAKER_01]: And I've been in program for so long. [SPEAKER_01]: My sobriety's been solid for so long, you know, one day at a time, thank God, all that stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: But some of the insights that I got that just sort of reinforced things that I already knew that helped me to understand my program now, [SPEAKER_02]: Can you share something to like an insight that you might have gotten when you did that work?

28:38 [SPEAKER_01]: There were three significant insights that came up for me as I was working through these chapters. [SPEAKER_01]: One was that my primary middle circle currently is veging. [SPEAKER_01]: YouTube is kryptonite for me. [SPEAKER_01]: I have to be very careful with that. [SPEAKER_01]: Not that I go to inappropriate videos, but I can either watching sports and stupid things for way too long.

28:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And hand in hand with that, how important it is for me to lean into the healthy activities that I really enjoy. [SPEAKER_01]: Taking time to play music, making sure that I'm doing the various exercise stuff that I really enjoy. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was just, it wasn't that I didn't know those things, but working through those chapters really just sort of highlighted and brought them forward.

29:17 [SPEAKER_01]: The other piece that came up for me as I was working through the sexual history chapter was a realization of how significant holding boundaries around fantasy has been for me in my recovery. [SPEAKER_01]: As I was working through that chapter this time, it was just very stark. [SPEAKER_01]: how different my experiences now that those boundaries are more automatic and natural, not that I don't have to pay attention, but they're very natural.

29:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Then when they were before, before the energy I carried around was very, very different, and it's not that I don't still find people attractive. [SPEAKER_01]: I do, but there's a whole different way of holding those boundaries and acknowledging that. [SPEAKER_01]: And the way that that energy shows up in my life and the way that I can be present and sort of acknowledge and then move on is very different than what it was when I was in my addiction into my early recovery.

30:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And so really highlighted, [SPEAKER_01]: the value of that work and how that work has been valuable to me and the importance of continuing to maintain that boundary and hold it as I move forward. [SPEAKER_01]: Not because it was something that was throwing me into my addiction and I was in sobriety.

30:29 [SPEAKER_01]: But just the difference in the quality of the energy that I carry in my life and the way that I can hold energy in my relationship with other people is just something that I'm very grateful for and I appreciate. [SPEAKER_02]: It's also making me, as I'm listening to, it's a reminder and I hope that a lot of other people who are listening that identify as addicts can relate to this and will relate to this, the importance of even after years of sobriety of solid sobriety that you can't rest on your laurels that you need to continue to work a program and that doesn't have to be that you're always for the rest of your life working a toll step program, although some people do and choose to and that's beautiful.

31:05 [SPEAKER_02]: But for other people that might be maintaining some other kind of a spiritual program or some kind of recovery program or certainly making sure that you have a solid support system in place, but that there's no like end date here when we're talking about recovery and healing and addiction.

31:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Abuse and all this kind of stuff that we talk about, it becomes integrated into your life as a part of your life, and I love hearing that you're walking the walk, that you're continuing to do the work, that you're still not just showing up to do the work, but you're actually gaining valuable insights while writing books.

31:37 [SPEAKER_02]: you're doing it all. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Tim said one thing that we haven't talked about and so I wanted to get into that and that's the sexual healing part. [SPEAKER_03]: Please, again, I don't want this to be an information, but in our book we have three different chapters that are focused on sexual healing and sexual issues.

31:54 [SPEAKER_03]: And this is a topic that, because of its intimate personal nature, a lot of betrayed partners aren't speaking about and a lot of our addicts and recovery are not really sure how to build what is healthy sexuality. [SPEAKER_03]: And so we spend a lot of time talking about sex and addiction.

32:12 [SPEAKER_03]: sex and recovery, and what are some barriers? [SPEAKER_03]: What are some things they get in the way for addict and the trade? [SPEAKER_03]: Again, that partner sensitivity, helping the addicts understand what betrayed might be going through male or female might be going through sexually in the impact of sex addiction on the betrayed and the impact of the sex addiction on the addicted.

32:35 [SPEAKER_03]: Because again, a lot of our folks' addicts don't really have in their growing up experiences, what is healthy sexuality? [SPEAKER_03]: What is safe sexuality? [SPEAKER_03]: What is safe sexual behavior? [SPEAKER_03]: And so it really helps gently bring the topic to both addict and betrayed partner and helps addict to hopefully gain a better understanding of how has my sexuality sexual behavior been impacted and how has it also impacted my loved one?

33:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And what can I do about that? [SPEAKER_03]: Because we need more books in our sex addiction betrayal trauma field talking about the sexual impact from a trauma perspective. [SPEAKER_03]: And so that is one of the new, not new, but it's one of the topics that we haven't really gotten into deeply as a field.

33:20 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we wanted to make sure that was represented and that there was some information out there for folks. [SPEAKER_03]: So, there's a lot of talk about how does one understand their own sexual energy and harness it and when to how to appropriately express or rain it back in and what that might be like for betrayed partner.

33:39 [SPEAKER_03]: So, the sexual piece so important. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's such a huge topic. [SPEAKER_02]: I think oftentimes also it's something that because of all the acute crisis and trauma that happens after discovery, it's too soon to talk about that, although it's so sexual trauma is just such [SPEAKER_02]: a devastating piece of this and outcome and it often doesn't get talked about until later stages and then sometimes maybe even forgotten a little bit and so I really do appreciate that you are including that and yeah it's a tough one and when you don't do the work around really learning about healthy sexuality what I tell clients is that you can end up sort of reintegrating too soon [SPEAKER_02]: And then not having the best experiences, maybe feeling re-traumatized or too triggered, or I'm doing this for the wrong reasons where I thought I was ready, but I'm not.

34:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And then you have this negative association with sexuality, with your partner, and it can make later healing a little bit more difficult. [SPEAKER_02]: So I do think we need a lot more of this kind of guidance in the field, and I'm glad that you were able to incorporate some of that into the book.

34:43 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like we as professionals, we need to be the ones to step into that conversation, to initiate that conversation, to welcome that conversation, because it's so scary for so many people to talk about, for addict and betrayed. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's incredibly scary. [SPEAKER_02]: And we don't talk also about the sexual losses.

34:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we talk a lot about grief. [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, we throw that word around all the time. [SPEAKER_02]: I just did a presentation this morning with couples on grief. [SPEAKER_02]: But oftentimes, we don't specifically talk about what are the losses that you've experienced [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's where I think AppSets has been doing a fantastic job is, you know, one of our curriculum updates really focusing much more on the sexual trauma and then how sexual loss the grief, also sexual years and experiences for both, part to the membership.

35:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It's important. [SPEAKER_01]: We often see that with the partners, but I think, you know, when you really get an addict who's stepping in an understanding and it's not uncommon that they recognize the loss. [SPEAKER_01]: One particular person that was in a workshop years ago with me, I remember him talking about having been molested by his babysitter when he was 12.

35:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And that put him on a different path. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that he was able to talk about, which I was profound as he said, [SPEAKER_01]: So from that point on, I dated quite a bit when I was in junior high in high school, but I think I missed out on a lot because when I was dating people, it was always about dating them and then getting into being sexual with them.

36:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, I think I missed out on the dating just to have fun, dating just because I liked them, dating just because we had a good time together. [SPEAKER_01]: that that had become so secondary because of the sexual abuse that he had had and the track that it put his relational and sexual behavior on.

36:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And so even though addicts have had a lot of sexual behaviors in their life, there's oftentimes a grieving process about, yeah, I lost and I missed out on a whole lot of really cool stuff because this is the path I ended up on. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I hear from many addicts so much grief.

36:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, about so many things, but definitely the sexuality piece and when I work with thinking of a particular couple right now, but when I've been working with them on sexual reintegration, sort of forming a different relationship to sexuality and to each other, it was very interesting.

37:04 [SPEAKER_02]: The addict was probably more afraid. [SPEAKER_02]: of engaging sexually again. [SPEAKER_02]: The partner, I mean, very quick to say that she'd experienced a ton of sexual trauma, that she was terrified that she wasn't ready for years, but when it came down to really getting to a point where they were both sort of moving in the direction of really wanting to take these steps, he was expressing a whole lot of fear.

37:27 [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting for the partner, I think, to hear from someone who was acting out sexually for so long and often with many people [SPEAKER_02]: I'm afraid of being sexual. [SPEAKER_01]: That I do get it for like the addicts. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like I've been sexual in so many ways. [SPEAKER_01]: And yet I have no idea how to be sexual with you and a healthy present way.

37:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And that scares the living daylights out of me. [SPEAKER_03]: Right? [SPEAKER_03]: And I want to make sure that the female addicts are represented here because a lot of female addicts confuse because of lack of teaching and role modeling and maybe possibly abuse of me being sexual is love.

38:07 [SPEAKER_03]: You'll love me if I'll have sex with you. [SPEAKER_03]: And so the same thing of loss of weight and I loved because I'm sexual or will you love me because of who I am. [SPEAKER_03]: So there's lots of fears on many dimensions regarding sexuality and it's so important to be addressed and talked about back to education for each to be sharing their experience so that the coupleship can benefit of understanding each other's perspective and that includes this sexual components.

38:34 [SPEAKER_03]: What is love? [SPEAKER_03]: What is healthy sex? [SPEAKER_03]: What is healthy sex for us? [SPEAKER_03]: For everybody, you know, just like what is our version of that and creating that? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, you know, this would be a whole other podcast, but I'll just throw out there that thinking about the world that we live in now and the unlimited access to explicitly sexual images and material and pornography and all of that I think is creating generations of people that are confused and not properly educated anyway about sexuality and intimacy and what is intimacy and what's the relationship with sexuality and intimacy.

39:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So then you throw on top of already a very just confusing culture because of what we're dealing with here with the internet and now you put in history of abuse Like you were talking about Tim exposure to explicit material exposure to being molested and abused sexually when you're growing up And you're in a very crucial developmental age [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that can do a real number on your sexuality, and we live in such an over-sexualized culture, but with so little real information and with so many people running around without really understanding what a healthy sexuality is.

39:37 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that we'll sometimes talk about is that often times when people are being sexual from their addiction, it was often about intensity and being sexual from the place of recovery is about intimacy and addicts are often struggling with that because in order to be intimate with another person they have to start by being intimate with themselves.

39:57 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, being intimate with yourself means looking at all that stuff inside that is uncomfortable. [SPEAKER_01]: That's really at the heart of where your addiction came from. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it would be intimate with yourself. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it goes without saying, but just in case it does not mean being sexual with yourself, right?

40:13 [SPEAKER_02]: This is not about going into a room and masturbating. [SPEAKER_02]: This is about deep intimacy, emotional intimacy. [SPEAKER_01]: We have a lot of conversations about intimacy doesn't mean sex. [SPEAKER_01]: Guys will be in group in the same world. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we were into it the other night.

40:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, when you say intimate, I think you mean sex, but it could also be we sat and held hands on the couch. [SPEAKER_01]: Or we made a dinner together or talked about our days and what new interesting insights we had. [SPEAKER_01]: Or I shared my emotional experience that I had with a friend today with you.

40:41 [SPEAKER_01]: All of those are very intimate experiences. [SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: Which one were you talking about? [SPEAKER_02]: I have the same conversation. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which one? [SPEAKER_02]: So as we wrap up, I wanted actually to circle back Tim. [SPEAKER_02]: You'd mentioned, you know, I talked a little bit at the beginning that you serve as the president of the board of a far, right?

40:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the president of the board for the American Foundation for Addiction Research or a far. [SPEAKER_02]: I would love for you to just share briefly a little bit about a far and anything that you feel like could be helpful to our listeners. [SPEAKER_01]: A far is an organization that was actually founded by Pat Karns and a number of other people way back in the late 90s, originally focused on supporting research into addictions with a special emphasis on sex addiction.

41:22 [SPEAKER_01]: More recently, we have shifted that focus exclusively to sex addiction and betrayal trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: So a far funds research to understand the ideology, the effective treatment, what are the experiences of sex addicts and people impacted by betrayal trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: We advocate for those who are treating, for those who have experienced it.

41:43 [SPEAKER_01]: We do a lot of education about what sex addiction is, what it isn't, what betrayal trauma is, what it is not. [SPEAKER_01]: And we are really, very passionate about making sure that these communities have a voice and that we can forward this knowledge about what's going on as we're going forward.

42:02 [SPEAKER_01]: More recently, we've been involved in a lot of stuff to work on getting sex addiction into the DSM. [SPEAKER_01]: We recently funded a brief for the Supreme Court around age verification on adult websites. [SPEAKER_01]: So we've been leaning into that. [SPEAKER_01]: We also offer some groups that act as fundraisers for us, but they are for groups that have a hard time getting services.

42:23 [SPEAKER_01]: We have a group for high profile individuals that have a hard time going to in-person meetings. [SPEAKER_01]: everybody knows them and their anonymity is not what it should be. [SPEAKER_01]: We also have a group for therapists who are in their own recovery and need a place where they can go in and do their own work to put their program back together or to strengthen it.

42:43 [SPEAKER_01]: We are also starting a program for therapists who are in their own healing process from betrayal trauma because there's not a place for them to do that work easily either. [SPEAKER_01]: So we are an organization that is really trying to help people who have a hard time getting [SPEAKER_01]: and forward this field so that we can advocate supporting, you know, we envision a world where betrayal, trauma, and sex addiction don't have the same stigma that they have now, that it's more along the lines of what we see with alcohol or drug addiction, where people can say, yeah, that sucks, but good for you for being in recovery.

43:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And those aren't the stories we hear with sex addiction quite as frequently as we would like to. [SPEAKER_02]: that's such important work. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for doing that. [SPEAKER_01]: If people want more information about afar, our website is addictionresearch.com [SPEAKER_02]: great and I will put information for Willow Tree as well as a far all the information on your book.

43:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll put that all in the show notes and I'm not only grateful that you took the time to be here today. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really grateful for your contributions to the field. [SPEAKER_02]: I was saying to you both before we hit record today that you know we've been doing this for a long time all three of us and it's amazing we're not slowing down.

43:54 [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like maybe the more we've seen the more we [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know that Jeannie and my motivation on our passion comes from slightly different places, but I think what view lights us in this work is that it comes from a place of passion. [SPEAKER_01]: It comes from a place of wanting there to be something better out there, and this was never about getting rich.

44:20 [SPEAKER_01]: it was about following our passion following what we wanted to be able to do and that really does come from our hearts. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I'm honored to be able to be doing this work and helping people find their way through and I'm very fortunate to have Genie as my business partner because I know she feels the same way.

44:34 [SPEAKER_03]: doing this work is always such an honor and there's so much to still do in this field and there are so many people to serve and so part of what Tim and I also do is we do a lot of training because we're trying to help sort of the next generation of coaches and clinicians come into it because there's so big of a need so yeah healing is possible.

44:55 [SPEAKER_02]: Healing is possible. [SPEAKER_02]: It happens. [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason I do the podcast and I have interviews like this is because I want people out there who are suffering to know what is possible in this presentation on grief that I did this morning. [SPEAKER_02]: I was talking about how we're in grief and we're in the early stages of trauma.

45:10 [SPEAKER_02]: It's all despair. [SPEAKER_02]: We don't have hope. [SPEAKER_02]: We can't see through the fog of trauma and it can feel like it's never going to get better. [SPEAKER_02]: And so the very first podcast I ever did [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was the name like introduction and hope and it was because we really wanted to let people know that no matter where you are and how you might be in the depths of despair, there is hope and there is healing and you're going to be okay.

45:36 [SPEAKER_02]: What a wonderful way to sum it up there, Bernie. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you both again and thanks everybody as always for listening for being here for trusting me and I will see you all very soon. [SPEAKER_02]: Take a care. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast where you're healing is our number one priority.

45:59 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325. [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about.

46:24 [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community. [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.