96. Beyond Words: How Friends and Family Can Truly Support Betrayed Partners

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marnie Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcasts was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone, welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: This is Marny and I know that I always say, today I have a great guest or I'm so excited I have the best guest ever.

1:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to say exactly that but I'm going to say like a version of that right now which is I don't believe I've ever had in all of these years. [SPEAKER_01]: a group of women who are actual podcast listeners and betrayed partners come on as guests to talk about their own experience.

1:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is what we're doing today. [SPEAKER_01]: Have for amazing extraordinary women who are betrayed partners who live in different parts of the country, some know each other, some don't. [SPEAKER_01]: And they are here to talk about an important topic that we've never really addressed on this podcast.

2:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually had a member of my [SPEAKER_01]: online partners community send in a message requesting this topic and she said my closest friends have asked and looked for specific podcast episodes focused on how my friends and family can best support a betrayed partner and they've never been able to find that.

2:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, wow, since we know that betrayed partners desperately need support and that often they're asked to sort of inherit a secret that's been kept from them and now they have and often they don't know who to talk to because are they going to be able to tolerate what I have to say, what are they going to do?

2:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to judge me or are they going to tell me to do this or do something to do that? [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a really fraught topic and I thought this needs to be talked about. [SPEAKER_01]: So my hope is that not only is this going to help all the people that are listening right now, but that now you guys will have an actual resource to send to people in your lives, who want to support you and might not know how to do that.

3:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So I wish that I had something like this years ago, and I was grieving the loss of my mom. [SPEAKER_01]: I remember thinking, [SPEAKER_01]: There should be a book that tells other people how to support somebody when they've just had a significant death. [SPEAKER_01]: They probably have that now, but at the time I remember I didn't have access to a resource like that and I felt powerless to be able to explain to the people in my life how they could support me.

3:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you guys for being here. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to introduce you each one at a time and if you can just tell us where you are in this world and maybe why you chose to say yes when I asked you to come on the podcast and talk about this topic today. [SPEAKER_01]: So let's start with Sabre.

3:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, everyone. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Sabra. [SPEAKER_03]: It's a little surreal to be on the podcast that I've been listening to for over a year now. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in the Pacific Northwest and I'm a portrayed partner and I'm really grateful for this opportunity because I know what it's like to be listening on the other side and just needing that life line and that support.

3:59 [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for the opportunity. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for being here. [SPEAKER_03]: Ellie. [SPEAKER_04]: Hi, everyone. [SPEAKER_04]: My name's Ellie. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm also from the Pacific Northwest and I echo what Sabre said. [SPEAKER_04]: This is wild. [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm so glad I've had so much support and so many different resources and it's good to be paying it back.

4:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Liz. [SPEAKER_02]: I, I'm Liz, as Marnie said, I am in the heart of the country and I also am a betrayed partner, I've been listening to this podcast for a few years now at least and it has been a lifeline. [SPEAKER_02]: So I was nervous this morning. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I'm nervous to go on this podcast that has been so life-giving for me.

4:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that we do it justice because I feel like I've found myself in a place where I've almost had to like teach family and friends how to show up for me to say like yes do that no don't do that yeah so I think having a resource like this would be immensely helpful for people who are navigating this and don't know what they need or how to express it.

4:58 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to say I'm emotional. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very different experience actually to have you guys here and to know your stories and to know that you've been listening to this podcast and that this has been so helpful to you and it really does feel like a very sacred experience. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very special experience for me.

5:16 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm truly honored that you're here and, uh, wasn't expecting to feel so emotional. [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, I'm Rachel. [SPEAKER_05]: I also feel emotional being in the company of other travelers. [SPEAKER_05]: Marty your podcast was one of the earliest resources I came across that was helping me to make sense of what on earth had just exploded in my life.

5:42 [SPEAKER_05]: And since that time, which was about a year and a half ago, I've been able to access a lot of other resources, which have been helpful. [SPEAKER_05]: And I've seen that there's a growing community of [SPEAKER_05]: counselors and others helping professionals who want to really support betrayed partners.

5:56 [SPEAKER_05]: I will say that the one resource I have not been able to find anywhere is what can we give our friends and family to help them understand what we're going through. [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm really, really grateful to be here. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's amazing that it seems to be such a universal need and yet so little available.

6:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's dive in. [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you guys think that friends and family and loved ones would have such a hard time knowing how to show up? [SPEAKER_01]: Saber, you want to start? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm happy to share kind of what I experienced and likely what my friends and family experienced, which is suddenly I just sort of disappeared.

6:31 [SPEAKER_03]: There was this sudden loss of I'm not answering the phone. [SPEAKER_03]: I might answer a text, but it's going to be really delayed if I am in their presence. [SPEAKER_03]: They can tell us something's not right because I am terrible at faking a smile, especially with those that are closest to you.

6:47 [SPEAKER_03]: And so my guess is that might be the first thing that they start to notice of just what's happening to this person that I love and and adore like what is happening and why aren't they telling me like why aren't they telling me what's going on and it's just a really really difficult situation to be in.

7:06 [SPEAKER_04]: I think Sabre to add on that, I've had an experience where I have told some of my closest friends and when you bring them into the fold of what's happening, I'd say that's equally as confusing my friends have been my tried and true writer die with me day in and day out and yet they don't have this experience.

7:27 [SPEAKER_04]: And those that do typically don't talk about it. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's really confusing how to show up. [SPEAKER_04]: And when they love you, they get really angry at your partner. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's very difficult to come into a relationship, leave with somebody and not have an agenda if they're a great friend of yours.

7:47 [SPEAKER_01]: That makes so, so much sense to me. [SPEAKER_01]: They want to protect you. [SPEAKER_01]: They love you, and they want you to be okay. [SPEAKER_01]: And the source of your pain is your partner. [SPEAKER_01]: And so that becomes very easy to identify if that's the problem. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get rid of the problem, right?

8:03 [SPEAKER_01]: So you should leave. [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I've heard over and over from betrayed partners. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like that doesn't help me. [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's absolutely right. [SPEAKER_04]: And there is this element of, because everyone's been in relationship or had some first or second hand experience with infidelity, this is a unique type of grief that people feel the right to weigh in on, the right to chime in with their opinions.

8:30 [SPEAKER_04]: And the challenge as someone who's been betrayed is at that time of discovery, you're lost. [SPEAKER_04]: You don't know up from down. [SPEAKER_04]: You are questioning, do I even know myself? [SPEAKER_04]: How can I trust myself to make a decision? [SPEAKER_04]: And when you have outside voices chiming in with opinions, it becomes even harder to identify your own voice and what you want.

8:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So for me and my experience it was difficult for people to show up for me because I didn't let anybody in. [SPEAKER_02]: We had legal situations that were happening in my case and I had a very wise therapist and sponsor in the very beginning who were like. [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't feel that there are certain people in your life who can show up for you, and the ways that you really need right now unconditionally, right?

9:18 [SPEAKER_02]: Without peppering you with questions and demanding answers and, you know, all of these things, like you can't untill someone wants you to tell them. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I kept this very, very close to the best. [SPEAKER_02]: Quite frankly, for about a year, until after our legal situation was over, there were very few people who knew therapist, sponsor, my husband's mother, [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know that I told any friends.

9:41 [SPEAKER_02]: People in my recovery group knew what was going on and I'm grateful that was recommended to me to find a 12-step recovery group. [SPEAKER_02]: And so that was this space for me where I was able to share. [SPEAKER_02]: But my immediate family members and even some of my close friends didn't know.

9:55 [SPEAKER_02]: I did have one person who stood up in our wedding and I've actually known her since second grade and she's a trauma therapist. [SPEAKER_02]: I disclosed to her because disclosure as I said earlier was a week before our wedding and she was going to be my made of honor. [SPEAKER_02]: And so contacting her and said like this is what's happening.

10:13 [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't feel like you can support this marriage and you need an out here it is right and she what she said to me was incredible and I won't share the details of it, but she was just really supportive and she showed up and she was supportive of not just me but of. [SPEAKER_02]: husband and of our marriage, right?

10:32 [SPEAKER_02]: So it was just really beautiful to have that kind of support and connection. [SPEAKER_02]: And the struggle with that was like on our wedding day, she was one of the only people who knew that this was going on behind the scenes. [SPEAKER_02]: And so she was really protective of me that day.

10:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm really grateful for that. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think the struggle is, [SPEAKER_02]: Number one, I kept people out. [SPEAKER_02]: And number two, once I brought them into the fold and shared what was going on, it was like, here's what happened. [SPEAKER_02]: Here's the result of it.

10:57 [SPEAKER_02]: They were shocked and exactly what somebody had previously told me was going to happen is what happened. [SPEAKER_02]: That's when all of the questions came. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was grateful that I hadn't shared it sooner because I spent that year going to recovery meetings and being in therapy and reading books and just learning about this because had I been a year prior trying to answer the questions that all of these family members and friends had, I was not equipped to answer them.

11:26 [SPEAKER_02]: So getting some of the information and having a better understanding of it myself was really critical before I felt like I could share what was really going on with people. [SPEAKER_05]: It's interesting I took a different approach. [SPEAKER_05]: I was just spilling the beans left and right to my dearest friends.

11:42 [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I wanted to like tell the grocery clerk. [SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to tell everybody because I was in an alternate universe and I wanted to be like, I just want you to know and you to know and you know and you know that I am not okay. [SPEAKER_05]: So if I do anything weird or I sound strange or I look weird or I randomly burst out into tears and fall in the floor like just want you to know this is why.

12:03 [SPEAKER_05]: Like I'm not crazy. [SPEAKER_05]: There's actually a reason why this is happening. [SPEAKER_05]: So I had this compulsion to want to tell everybody. [SPEAKER_05]: I did tell my closest girlfriends and you know, I've been amazed at how many of them have been able to like hold the complexity of this situation.

12:18 [SPEAKER_05]: I think part of that is because I did wait long enough to tell them [SPEAKER_05]: after I had done just enough reading and research to like understand what was going on. [SPEAKER_05]: So I waited just long enough to have like, if nothing else just intellectual resources, so that I could position it as like, this is what's happening.

12:37 [SPEAKER_05]: This is what we're dealing with, and my heart is broken, and I feel like I'm dying. [SPEAKER_05]: And I think they were able to hold, you know, a lot of them were able to hold space for that. [SPEAKER_05]: But there are lots of things that people say, you know, when they're also in shock, just like you are.

12:52 [SPEAKER_05]: When they've known your spouse, your partner, whoever, you know, your qualifying person is, they are trying to process the information too, because this is often someone they've known for just as long as you have. [SPEAKER_05]: and loved and adored and thought was the bees' knees, you know?

13:08 [SPEAKER_05]: So I told my friends, when I dumped all this on them, I said, I just want you to know, it's okay if you need to tell your partner, or you need to talk to somebody like you have my permission because it's a lot to carry, it's a lot to hold. [SPEAKER_05]: So that was kind of the way that I approached it early on.

13:24 [SPEAKER_05]: And there are certainly things that I have learned since about what is helpful and what is not helpful. [SPEAKER_05]: So. [SPEAKER_03]: Rachel, what you've said about their own betrayal experience is so valid. [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was part of the reason I was afraid. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, besides affecting her in shock, one minute, then you're in a puddle in the floor, the next minute.

13:42 [SPEAKER_03]: And as Ali said, you're like, who am I? [SPEAKER_03]: Is this guy even blue anymore? [SPEAKER_03]: I thought the sky's green. [SPEAKER_03]: What? [SPEAKER_03]: So it's kind of that like shock piece. [SPEAKER_03]: But I was afraid to tell them because I knew they would go through the same shock and sadness that I was going through.

13:56 [SPEAKER_03]: And so [SPEAKER_03]: I did not want to burden them with all the details. [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know all the details yet myself. [SPEAKER_03]: So I was still trying to figure out what colors the sky, what is tomorrow going to look like, and then from there, there's only a decision to be made in the beginning.

14:13 [SPEAKER_03]: And for me, it was easier to just put a pause on, and just focus on myself right now until I bring everyone else in. [SPEAKER_04]: that makes so much sense with me to Sabra. [SPEAKER_04]: In fact, I had some people in my life as I had to withdraw a bit. [SPEAKER_04]: Tell me that it feels like you're divorcing me when you should be divorcing him.

14:33 [SPEAKER_04]: and that rips me into because I want all of these relationships in my life to be whole and happy and healthy and connected and I want nothing more than to keep my friends safe and happy. [SPEAKER_04]: And yet this was a moment I knew I needed to do self-protection more than anything else.

14:55 [SPEAKER_04]: I needed to take care of me and that meant that I needed some solitude and some isolation and [SPEAKER_04]: but it needed to be for now. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thanks, Ellie. [SPEAKER_02]: For me, so I think part of the reason why I didn't tell anybody, right? [SPEAKER_02]: It's because I didn't feel safe.

15:11 [SPEAKER_02]: I needed safety and I had no idea where to find it. [SPEAKER_02]: Our primary attachment figure in adulthood, our partner, our spouse, has shattered our world, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And nothing and no one feels safe anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: So we're questioning everything and everyone and we're drowning in all of the phases of grief and confusion and anger and fear.

15:32 [SPEAKER_02]: And we don't know which way is up? [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, for me, it was like, it took weeks or even months for me to know that. [SPEAKER_02]: And so what I needed or what I would say to a friend or family member is like, be a soft place to land, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, what always comes to my mind is like, [SPEAKER_02]: people return home after like a divorce or a breakup right like their life has fallen apart.

15:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that the movie like hope floats with Sandra Bullock has one of the examples. [SPEAKER_02]: I know there's many others, but these people are looking for safety and comfort right and a sense of normalcy. [SPEAKER_02]: Their old bed, a hug from their mom or dad, a good meal if they can like bring themselves to eat.

16:13 [SPEAKER_02]: So be that safe space. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm grateful for one of my best friends from college who, even though she lives almost four hours away, she was like, you say the word and I'm there. [SPEAKER_02]: Or if you need to get out of the house or completely out of town, I won't share too much of my story, but in my situation, there was some fear for my family safety from vigilantes because my husband's relapse was recorded and posted on social media.

16:43 [SPEAKER_02]: And so she said, there's a place for you in our home anytime. [SPEAKER_02]: Come alone if you need to or bring the kids, stay as long as you need to or want to. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, she's like, we don't have to talk about it or we can if you want. [SPEAKER_02]: Either way, we're here for you.

16:57 [SPEAKER_02]: I did eventually take her up on that offer over a long holiday weekend and it was exactly what I needed. [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if I've ever told her how much that meant to me or how much I needed that refuge, but it was really life-giving. [SPEAKER_02]: I have to say too, like my mother-in-law really surprised me.

17:28 [SPEAKER_02]: It kind of became like a Ruth and Naomi situation where even though it was her son like doing all of this and her natural instinct might have been to like protect him or deny that his behaviors were as bad as they were she showed up at my house almost every single day for over two months after a relapse last year that we experienced and she would watch the kids while I took a shower.

17:53 [SPEAKER_02]: or went to therapy or recovery meeting. [SPEAKER_02]: She encouraged me to like go take naps or leave the house and get a coffee or go for a walk in the park, click. [SPEAKER_02]: She just... [SPEAKER_02]: You know, she watched as I had the lock changed after I kicked my husband out of the house and you know, before he went to rehab and she knew that I've gone to the bank to cut off his access to our finances and like she was supportive of the decisions that I was making to protect myself and the kids and our finances from her sons behavior right while he was completely off the rails and so yeah, like she actually said to me one day and I don't want to tell too much of her story.

18:32 [SPEAKER_02]: that I probably should have done when his father was doing these things to us. [SPEAKER_02]: And there were a lot of collective tears shed over this being a family disease and a cycle that was repeating itself. [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it gave us a deeper respect and understanding for each other and it brought our relationship closer in a way that I never expected.

18:54 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really grateful for her presence in our lives and how she showed up in real and practical ways that I could just breathe and take care of myself for a moment. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, my own mother wanted to come and help and while I appreciated her offer at the time I wasn't in a place to be able to navigate kind of a tenuous relationship that it had with my mom on top of everything else at the time.

19:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I asked her not to come, which I feel has further strained our relationship. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm hoping for healing and repair there when we're both ready. [SPEAKER_02]: She sent me some thoughtful cards and notes of encouragement, which, you know, didn't go a notice, but like, I just wasn't ready to allow her in in that way.

19:33 [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that her [SPEAKER_01]: I want to throw something out there about what you're saying, Liz, you know, again, we're talking about helping people understand how they can be helpful and supportive, right? [SPEAKER_01]: What can they do? [SPEAKER_01]: And then what can they not do?

19:46 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a really good example that if you need space, that is something that they can do. [SPEAKER_01]: give you the space and respect that, as opposed to taking it personally, pushing you, pushing the boundary, or making it about them, which then, of course, takes the focus completely off of you.

20:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Now it's like you're trying to either caretake them or you feel guilty if you're not going to caretake them. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so like all of that said, like friends, family, like don't stop inviting us out for girls night or to grab lunch or go see a movie like like Saber said, we may not respond to your text or phone calls right away or take you up on the invitation often.

20:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And you know like Rachel said like we might cry or have a panic attack or some of their form of like trauma response where maybe we need to leave earlier go somewhere else because we've been triggered by something but like being invited and knowing that someone is thinking of us and isn't shining us or abandoning us or like othering us.

20:45 [SPEAKER_02]: that's really important for our self-esteem and our sense of belonging and like rebuilding trust with safe people. [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes we just need a distraction or a break from like all of the work that we're doing to recover and to heal. [SPEAKER_02]: But if you can't do that, like if you can't be that person for your family member or friend.

21:04 [SPEAKER_02]: If you can't show up in kind and gentle ways and help soften the blow, then like at the very least don't pile on the hurt and I say that to say like I've experienced that so like on the flip side of these lovely women, I had a family member send me the video of my husband's relapse. [SPEAKER_02]: and said, never thought I'd be related to a viral video star.

21:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And I will never forget it. [SPEAKER_02]: It felt like a punch and a gut. [SPEAKER_02]: Added betrayal from another person who says that they love me. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, why are you rubbing this in my face? [SPEAKER_02]: And while I understand like this family member was hurting and peripherally being affected by my husband's acting out behavior, my therapist said to me like, see people don't do these kinds of things right so as much as this hurts.

21:51 [SPEAKER_02]: At least you know where this person stands and now you can make informed choices about how much access you give this person to your life and, you know, she's like not everybody gets a front row access. [SPEAKER_02]: Some people shouldn't even be in the arena with you, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So like if you can't help at minimum, don't add to the hurt.

22:09 [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting to hear Liz's experience because mine is so opposite. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it might be a really good contrast to share. [SPEAKER_03]: So I didn't know who I should or should talk to. [SPEAKER_03]: And I was about to say trust, but of course I trust all my family and friends.

22:25 [SPEAKER_03]: That decision that as partners are thinking through when we say trust, it's more around. [SPEAKER_03]: How much can I burden you with? [SPEAKER_03]: How will you respond to that? [SPEAKER_03]: What does this look like long-term? [SPEAKER_03]: Like if I trauma dump on you now and a year from now, everything's going great.

22:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you still gonna hate my husband? [SPEAKER_03]: Even though you haven't seen all the amazing work he's done. [SPEAKER_03]: So those are things that are going through our head. [SPEAKER_03]: So the way I responded was to retreat, isolate. [SPEAKER_03]: And I experienced the same thing you described Valley, about the divorce, like my mom, who I would talk to on a daily basis.

22:57 [SPEAKER_03]: She got to a point where she would say, I miss you. [SPEAKER_03]: It's just heartbreaking, but I just, the capacity, I just didn't have the capacity to have a normal conversation. [SPEAKER_03]: I had another close person in my family, one of my brothers, and he was like, what have I done?

23:14 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, why do you hate me now? [SPEAKER_03]: In essence. [SPEAKER_03]: And I know that both of them came from a place of love and concern. [SPEAKER_03]: And so I just think it's good to, if I were a friend, and now hearing this to think, okay, so one thing I can do, [SPEAKER_03]: is just be present and understand that if they're not reaching out, they're not replying.

23:34 [SPEAKER_03]: It's not because of their love or trust or hate or discomfort or anything about me. [SPEAKER_03]: They're just in survival mode. [SPEAKER_03]: They're focused on brushing their teeth and showering every day. [SPEAKER_03]: Like sometimes it is that level. [SPEAKER_03]: And then I would also share Liz, I don't think I could have gone to a movie.

23:51 [SPEAKER_03]: If a friend is in, hey, come, let's go to a party girl. [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to, I would have been like, oh my gosh, I can't possibly go do that. [SPEAKER_03]: So for me, what that would look like is just a friend sitting with me, even just in complete silence. [SPEAKER_03]: I know we've all said this.

24:07 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, please, I know that you mean well, but if you could reserve [SPEAKER_03]: holding any questions that you have. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure that your mind is racing with what's going on and what about this and what about this? [SPEAKER_03]: The best thing you could do if you just did one thing is not ask those questions and let the partner or your, you know, the one you're concerned about reveal to you in time and know that they have the support that they need.

24:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the one thing I'm saying. [SPEAKER_03]: How I got through that is a support group. [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, pork ribs have been the mainstay of recovery because it is one of those things that you need to be surrounded with people that get it that understand it makes you feel like you're not this alien on the planet that doesn't deserve to be here.

24:53 [SPEAKER_04]: But I didn't want to touch on its funny saber because you're saying, you know, don't ask questions and while you're talking, I was thinking there is so much confusion with how do I show up for you, but it is also maybe not asking questions about what's happening and what's going on with your husband and what's going on with you and what are you going to do, are you going to stay or you're going to go because we're not equipped at that point to have that conversation, we don't know what we're doing.

25:19 [SPEAKER_04]: But I think it's okay to ask, how can I be here for you or how can I support you or what do you need and we might not know and we might not even answer, but the fact that we know that someone's willing to be present in our lives, even though we're not reaching out or even though we cry when we go out, that's so impactful to just listen, ask and hold space.

25:46 [SPEAKER_05]: I was gonna say, you know, the longer I go through this, the more I realize that there are really two things that I need from friends and family, and it's just listen and be curious. [SPEAKER_05]: And if part of being curious is asking questions, go for it. [SPEAKER_05]: I love it when my friends get really curious and stay away from platitudes.

26:08 [SPEAKER_05]: In the very beginning, I got a lot of like, you didn't deserve this. [SPEAKER_05]: And I sort of thought, I know that. [SPEAKER_05]: That's not what I'm grappling with. [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I know I didn't deserve this. [SPEAKER_05]: I know that nobody deserves this. [SPEAKER_05]: It is so much more complicated and so much more painful than anybody who's not been through it, will ever understand.

26:28 [SPEAKER_05]: And so the first thing to know, if your friends and families like unless you experience this, you will not understand and that's okay. [SPEAKER_05]: You don't have to. [SPEAKER_05]: We just want you to listen. [SPEAKER_05]: and to ask us how we're doing. [SPEAKER_05]: And you know, I remember one, a friend of mine, we were out and about in the city and she said, I have a question, but don't feel like you have to answer it if you don't want to.

26:51 [SPEAKER_05]: And I said, sure, and she said, so what's it like like being in the house, like living in the home together? [SPEAKER_05]: What's it like to be together after all this discovery? [SPEAKER_05]: And I was [SPEAKER_05]: I just felt like, now I don't have to, I can explain how I really feel and what's really going on.

27:10 [SPEAKER_05]: I don't have to answer questions that seem irrelevant, right? [SPEAKER_05]: And at that point, whether we're staying or going is irrelevant, whether I can meet another great guy or not is irrelevant. [SPEAKER_05]: You know, whether there are many fish in this year, not I don't care. [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, I just want to be able to explain how I feel and thank you so much for asking that question.

27:30 [SPEAKER_05]: And also, thank you for letting me know that it was okay to not answer it if I didn't want to. [SPEAKER_05]: So, yeah, just listening and being curious are tops. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so Rachel, thank you so much for sharing that. [SPEAKER_02]: I call that connection with boundaries. [SPEAKER_02]: It's okay to ask questions.

27:46 [SPEAKER_02]: You may have lots of them, right? [SPEAKER_02]: But don't pry. [SPEAKER_02]: If you ask and we know the answer and we're willing to share it, we will, right? [SPEAKER_02]: But if we say, I don't know the answer to that, or I'm not ready to talk about that piece yet. [SPEAKER_02]: or even like, that's not something I'm willing to share at all, right?

28:03 [SPEAKER_02]: Respect our boundaries and don't take it personal. [SPEAKER_02]: Right, therapist said to me, you don't know anyone in explanation, especially not for someone else's behavior. [SPEAKER_02]: So we need the space and the safety to know that we can share as much or as little as we choose to in our own time, right, without fear of being judged or told what to do or being pushed to share something [SPEAKER_02]: isn't our story to tell or is frankly nobody's business right like I had a family member said to me oh my gosh I can only imagine the things he's made you do during sex and I was horrified like that is way out of bounds right I told them quite directly that is really none of your business

28:50 [SPEAKER_02]: And I set a boundary. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, if you continue to imply things like that or pry and such intrusive and inappropriate ways, I'm going to be getting off of the phone and taking a break from communicating with you. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, don't don't ask questions like that.

29:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Like a simple, how are you today? [SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything I can do to lighten the load for you? [SPEAKER_02]: And we might not know how you can help because we don't always know what we need, especially in the beginning, right? [SPEAKER_02]: But like a specific offer of support.

29:20 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, hey, I'm coming to Moeurlon or bring you breakfast or clean your house goes a long way. [SPEAKER_02]: I actually had a dear friend of mine [SPEAKER_02]: come and clean my house while I took my kids swimming at another friend's house and it was like the Swedish gesture because I had not had the energy or the motivation to clean and the cobwebs were multiplying and the bathrooms needed a good scrub and she asked nothing in return like it was just how can I serve you?

29:50 [SPEAKER_02]: What can I do for you? [SPEAKER_02]: How can I lighten the load for you? [SPEAKER_02]: Right? [SPEAKER_02]: That unconditional [SPEAKER_02]: It was a big thing going and cleaning your friend's house, but it was like a small way that spoke volumes to me about the level of that friendship.

30:05 [SPEAKER_04]: I love the boundaries piece and I have to tell you I don't know a few guys were the same, but but upon discovery, I didn't know what boundaries were but I didn't have any, I wore my heart on my sleeve and I was proud of it. [SPEAKER_04]: There was nothing I wouldn't share with anybody in similar to Rachel like when this happened, I wanted to tell people because I was like, how dare he thinking there's no chance in heck that I'm going to stay with the sky like no way, right, so I don't care who knows.

30:34 [SPEAKER_04]: Burn it and then and then when I told people I think you know different than Rachel I was expecting those people to hold confidence and I even asked them to and and I didn't realize that was the burden I was placing on them so while we will have our boundaries and it's great as a friend to ask what can I hold for you that's important for your safety as we get to know ourselves in our [SPEAKER_04]: And as a friend, I would think about yours, what are your boundaries because I unloaded on people that I really trusted that was safe would not tell anybody told me they wouldn't tell anybody come to find out that they were then sharing my story the worst thing the most shameful thing in my life is now out there in the space that I didn't expect it to be and so.

31:24 [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's okay for you to have boundaries to and say there are parts I don't want to know or I can't be here for this but I can be here for this way and that's okay. [SPEAKER_02]: that takes himself awareness on their part. [SPEAKER_02]: I love that, Ellie. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that what I'm hearing is how personal this situation is to each person, how unique it is, right?

31:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Like all of you are sharing very different experiences. [SPEAKER_01]: Some like Rachel, I like you wanted to tell the cash into the cash year at the grocery store and with an mentality body, right, outside of like your recovery circle for over a year, I want to make something very clear.

31:58 [SPEAKER_01]: That is completely [SPEAKER_01]: There is not a one size fits all model or answer to this and I've had clients come in in a state of complete chaos and trauma and terror and say what should I tell people or who should I tell? [SPEAKER_01]: I need to know who to tell and what should I tell and I'd say okay let's take a deep breath.

32:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a list. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have an answer for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Let's figure that out together. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, that's up to you. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's up to nobody else to decide who you should tell, who you should [SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing that I want to say about this is that because what one person means is very different than what someone else needs.

32:39 [SPEAKER_01]: My advice to any friends and family members who are listening to this wanting to know how they can help support a friend or a family member who is betrayed partner is ask them what they need. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you need somebody to listen? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you need me to never bring it up?

32:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you need me to get a housekeeper to come in and clean? [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you need me to start a meal chain? [SPEAKER_01]: Or do you need me to go to the grocery store for you once a week? [SPEAKER_01]: What do you need? [SPEAKER_01]: And also understand that the needs can change day by day, or week by week, one minute, your friend, your friend, by the way, might seem like a crazy person.

33:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Because one day, they might not want to talk to you, and the next day, they might be blowing up your phone, and it might feel crazy. [SPEAKER_01]: So something you can do is to understand that that is a symptom of trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: That is normal. [SPEAKER_01]: And help your friend, help your family member understand that you get that that's what's going on for them and that it's okay for them to show up like that one day and to show up differently the next you guys tell me but to me that feels like the most wonderful way to support someone to just let them know that whatever it is that they need you've got it.

33:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you might be a hot mess and I will be here for your hot mess, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I do want to touch quickly on like I had some really great unconditional support. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a close friend of mine said, I'm here for you no matter what you need like color text me any time day or night.

34:08 [SPEAKER_02]: even to the point of like if you need help to pay your bills while your sole source of income is gone and rehab. [SPEAKER_02]: I will give you money and you can pay me back over time or not at all depending on you know how much it is like how much is the ask right so she had good boundaries.

34:24 [SPEAKER_02]: I had another friend who set up a meal train so that people could bring us food because I could barely bring myself to cook or feed myself. [SPEAKER_02]: Much less go to grocery shopping and be seen in public after I just, my family had essentially been docks, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm feeling like everyone knew who I was and whom my husband was and what he had done and that they would all be staring and judging me and whispering and so I just could not bring myself it was so difficult to go out [SPEAKER_02]: I had friends who knew that my husband was in rehab and that our savings financially was dwindling.

34:59 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm a state home mom and I had no income. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I had friends who sent me gift cards like digital gift cards. [SPEAKER_02]: So they would drop them off on my porch to just ease the financial burden or fill a financial gap with no expectations or strings attached.

35:13 [SPEAKER_02]: And it literally made me cry. [SPEAKER_02]: Here's a joy and just like gratefulness every time something like that happens. [SPEAKER_02]: On the flip side, I had a family member say, I'll pay for whatever you need. [SPEAKER_02]: If you need to move out, if you want to need a pay for your divorce attorney, and I immediately stopped them and said, like, if your support, whether emotional or financial is conditioned on me leaving my husband and the father of my children, [SPEAKER_02]: That is not the kind of support that I want or need.

35:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to have to get off the phone now. [SPEAKER_02]: I had to have very firm boundaries of my own and it was months before I spoke to that family member again because I felt like they'd made it clear that they could not stay objective that they did not support me. [SPEAKER_02]: in making the decisions that I felt were best for me and my children at the time to stay.

36:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And what I heard in their offer to help was that they thought that they knew what was best for me and that they were trying to influence my decision to stay or go by dangling financial support like a carrot, right? [SPEAKER_02]: My relationship with this person is still strained and it raced my heart because I felt like it was like a manipulation under the guise of helping.

36:28 [SPEAKER_02]: while I was in a very vulnerable position. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I make up that they were like, yay, he relapsed. [SPEAKER_02]: Now's our chance to get her to leave him, which fell opportunistic and like more betrayal, like I'll help you, but only if you do what I want or think you should do, because you don't know what's best for you, but I do, right?

36:49 [SPEAKER_02]: So supporting us unconditionally, [SPEAKER_02]: And it may take us weeks or months or even years to decide that. [SPEAKER_02]: I say sometimes this is a marathon that we didn't really sign up for. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, but I think something that not a lot of people know is that most couples in this situation do want to stay the course and try to make it work.

37:14 [SPEAKER_02]: I guess if we're continuing the marathon metaphor to finish the race, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And we need people on the sidelines cheering us on, like giving us little cups of water and little snacks or like those little like refreshment things that you give to people, not telling us to drop out of the race because it's really hard and it's uncomfortable, right?

37:30 [SPEAKER_02]: Some days I love him and some days I hate him, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Some days I'm grateful that I chose to stay and some days I still wonder if I should leave, like we really need you to stay neutral if at all possible, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Because the betrayed resumen and chances are like they're struggling to, they need kindness and support in compassion as well.

37:51 [SPEAKER_02]: And so like letting that person know that you support them getting the help and the support that they need, even that, if that's all you can say to them because you're so angry at how they've hurt the person that you love. [SPEAKER_02]: I heard someone say at another podcast once be a friend of the marriage where like barring any physical or other like real safety issues you can say I'm really angry at you for hurting my friend or my sister or the person that I love but I know that you have to do what's best for you and your family and I support you and making those decisions and I will treat the betrayer like a human being still following your lead like if you're good with this person I'm going to do my best to be good with this person as well.

38:31 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, if you can't be that objective or hold that space, let us know so that we can make informed decisions about how much or how little we share with you, not because we want to like abandon the relationship with you, but because we don't wanna put a burden on you to hold something that you can't hold, right?

38:49 [SPEAKER_02]: It's okay for us all to have boundaries. [SPEAKER_02]: We need them in order for our relationships to thrive. [SPEAKER_02]: So, that was a lot, but thank you. [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's so important to marnie what you said about people understanding what trauma looks like. [SPEAKER_05]: This isn't just about a sexual betrayal.

39:07 [SPEAKER_05]: It's so much deeper. [SPEAKER_05]: The impacts are so layered. [SPEAKER_05]: And a lot of people can't get past, oh, but this is what I would do if I were betrayed. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, before I was betrayed in this way, I would have had the exact same reaction. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, half the stuff, if not all of this stuff, my friends, say, I'm like, totally get it.

39:27 [SPEAKER_05]: not helping, you know. [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, with I talk to people and clients, but when people are interested in what I do for a living, or they are curious about my podcast, or whatever, and I explain to them that I work in the trail, I find myself sort of defending. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, as if I'm a betrayed partner, I find myself in the same sort of, like, defensive posture trying to explain why I know it.

39:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not that simple. [SPEAKER_01]: I know they don't just leave and know the betrayers, not necessarily just an asshole. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's such a complex thing. [SPEAKER_01]: But I do feel like from my own experience. [SPEAKER_01]: that I understand more what my clients, what the betrayed partners that I work with, and what you guys experience, because people do have an agenda.

40:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It does not mean it's coming from a bad place. [SPEAKER_01]: To be honest, I think that really, a lot of times it's coming from the fact that people are terrified that that will happen to them too. [SPEAKER_01]: that's scary, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that it's very easy to try to just throw a solution on it.

40:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Just throw like an answer on it. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the end of it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's very cut and dry, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Where the truth is, there's really not a lot of black and white here. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Ellie. [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, me on, you just hit it for me. [SPEAKER_04]: I have a rock behind me from a retreat and amazing retreat.

40:41 [SPEAKER_04]: If I may say, it's all about what you want to accomplish at the end of the retreat. [SPEAKER_04]: It's something we're going to take home with us and mindset grow in the gray. [SPEAKER_04]: Because I, in the beginning of this as I'm trying to rediscover myself and my life and put everything back together, I was also living in the black and white either say or I go I either do this or that I either stay in the house or I have to sell it, you know, you're thinking it's this or that.

41:08 [SPEAKER_04]: And if I could give a word of advice to friends and family, it's one educate yourself. [SPEAKER_04]: There are lots of resources out there on this. [SPEAKER_04]: And the fact that you're listening to this right now is evidence that you want to. [SPEAKER_04]: And thank you. [SPEAKER_04]: And two, sometimes we think in black and white.

41:25 [SPEAKER_04]: And this is a complex situation. [SPEAKER_04]: We need someone who can try to see the gray who can understand that there's space for us to not know or to not need to know if I had a friend say you don't need to decide right now whether you're staying or going you need to eat you know you need like I was so fixated on do I stay or do I go especially those first three months.

41:50 [SPEAKER_04]: It would have been amazing to have a friend step in and say that's not it's okay. [SPEAKER_04]: Let's just breathe. [SPEAKER_01]: Just have to breathe. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to eat. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to sleep. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Water. [SPEAKER_01]: That's all you have to do.

42:00 [SPEAKER_02]: Fundamentals. [SPEAKER_02]: The basement, right? [SPEAKER_02]: You know, self care. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's take care of you. [SPEAKER_02]: Breathe. [SPEAKER_03]: I think that really, I mean, let's be honest, it's everywhere all over social media, these well-meaning messages to women that feel like empowerment, but it's the what I call girl.

42:17 [SPEAKER_03]: You don't, you know, whatever that next thing is, there's a lot of that out there, and I think when you hear those messages, it feels empowering. [SPEAKER_03]: You're like, yes, I'm not going to stand for XYZ. [SPEAKER_03]: And then, as Ali said, and Marty said, you get in that spot, and it's anything you thought you were going to do is not.

42:37 [SPEAKER_03]: It's all gone. [SPEAKER_03]: I believe for my experience that I had no idea what I actually would have done in time in this situation of portrayal. [SPEAKER_03]: and it is that space. [SPEAKER_03]: Ali, I had a group leader very early on and she said often times in their group they would counsel the trip partners to wait a year.

42:56 [SPEAKER_03]: Wait a year, get to a place where you could do both. [SPEAKER_03]: Can you leave? [SPEAKER_03]: Can you state could you do both? [SPEAKER_03]: And at the time, I myself, the portrayed partner, was like, that sounds crazy. [SPEAKER_03]: How can I put my whole life on hold for a year? [SPEAKER_03]: But really, the concept is like, eat, shower.

43:12 [SPEAKER_03]: Go to your group, get some therapy. [SPEAKER_03]: Don't make any big decisions right now. [SPEAKER_03]: Find people that you can trust that can hold you in that safety and give yourself some grace and compassion. [SPEAKER_03]: And if your friends or your family can find that capacity to, what a beautiful thing.

43:29 [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's so important for people to understand how long the healing takes. [SPEAKER_05]: It takes so much longer than anyone wants it to take, including ourselves. [SPEAKER_05]: And there's a massive loss that we're trying to manage, which is the loss of a person that we thought we knew.

43:46 [SPEAKER_05]: that we learned, we didn't know it all, and there's a certain degree to which there's like a little death there, but there are no rituals to acknowledge that death. [SPEAKER_05]: There are no grief rituals for retreat partners. [SPEAKER_05]: And I found that to be one of the most challenging pieces is how do I work through my grief and not feel guilty that it's taking too long.

44:07 [SPEAKER_05]: Because again, this is like, okay, the guy cheated on you, he's horrible, just make a decision, you know, and it's just a lot more than that grief is grief. [SPEAKER_05]: I actually am going to be grieving for a long time, whether or not I stay. [SPEAKER_05]: That's just the way it's going to be.

44:22 [SPEAKER_05]: It's it's a death of its own kind and I just hope that my friends and family understand what a process it is that it's just because this person is still alive. [SPEAKER_05]: Doesn't mean I'm not suffering the way that someone who has lost someone they love suffers. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was actually going to bring this up and you beat me to it.

44:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Rachel, have you read the book? [SPEAKER_01]: Soulbroken? [SPEAKER_05]: I have. [SPEAKER_05]: It's been so supportive. [SPEAKER_05]: So supportive. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful book. [SPEAKER_01]: I actually interviewed Stephanie who's the author on this podcast a couple of years ago.

44:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was thinking about this. [SPEAKER_01]: Someone was talking about nobody's bringing you food and all of those things, but they would if someone died. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's what this idea in the ambiguous grief is. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're grieving a person who's actually still alive.

45:02 [SPEAKER_01]: They might even be living in the same home that you're living in and co-parenting your children, or they might be around the corner, but they're no longer alive or showing up in life as you once thought that they were, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like they are no longer the person you thought that they were.

45:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you're right, there's very few rituals. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Jewish and my religion when somebody dies, we have very clear and beautiful rituals, right? [SPEAKER_01]: the last for seven days and people come and they sit and my God do they bring food and they bring food and they bring food and they bring food and they bring more food and they come and they sit and then tell stories and there's so much support but there are there are a lot of rituals and what I've heard over and over from betrayed partners for so many years is [SPEAKER_01]: If my partner had died, it would have been easier, because people would be saying nice things about him or her.

45:52 [SPEAKER_01]: People would be bringing food, they'd be sitting, but I can't tell anybody's people don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's going to come over and sit with me. [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's cooking me a casserole, bringing me a lasagna, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And it's painful. [SPEAKER_01]: So you are your grieving, but it's a very unique and complex kind of grief that is misunderstood.

46:11 [SPEAKER_01]: by so many people, so we can feel very alone to go through the kind of grief that all of you were talking about. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Marnie, to touch on that a little bit in Rob Weiss's book, Pro Dependence. [SPEAKER_02]: He talks a little bit about this. [SPEAKER_02]: We're really trying to move away from like the codependency model, and he's written a book about Pro Dependence.

46:30 [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things that he talks about in their kind of in the beginning of the book is like, [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you are married to someone who has cancer and they're sick and you're sacrificing your time and your energy to feed them and take care of them and take them to doctors appointments and all of these things right like people understand that and they're kind and they're like that's so generous of you and they're so lucky to have you right but if you're married to an addict.

46:57 [SPEAKER_02]: who's doing these things, there must be something wrong with you. [SPEAKER_02]: Like why would you spend your time staying in this relationship and investing in this person who's doing these things? [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's just a very different perspective that people have where they just, to your point, they're still grief and they're still trauma in either one of those situations.

47:18 [SPEAKER_02]: But the way that people show up for you in them is really, really different. [SPEAKER_01]: very different. [SPEAKER_01]: I have literally, I mean, when I said a moment ago that clients have said to me, it would have been easier if my husband had died. [SPEAKER_01]: And I've had clients say, I wish that he had died because it would be so much easier for me.

47:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be so much less painful. [SPEAKER_01]: I would be so much less alone. [SPEAKER_01]: And people would be with you. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was just hearing what both Rachel and Liz were saying and that drive of both in ourselves in the beginning of needing to make a decision and that our family and friends feeling like they need to encourage us to quickly make a decision.

47:52 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the way I've rationalized that now, or I don't know if that's right word, but I think if it is like a survival mechanism, so if you're walking in the woods and you come across a bear, your body sees a threat and it's going to give you nanoseconds to make a decision. [SPEAKER_03]: Are you running?

48:08 [SPEAKER_03]: Are you [SPEAKER_03]: Are you gonna attack it? [SPEAKER_03]: And so it makes sense to me why we all have that desire and feeling of like I need resolution I need to figure this out and this just isn't that. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm fortunately right. [SPEAKER_03]: We don't get it It's just not how it works man.

48:25 [SPEAKER_03]: Would we love to you know have it all be so much faster and quicker as Rachel said we would love to be done healing We would love this to be all done [SPEAKER_03]: But it does. [SPEAKER_03]: It just takes that time. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think you'd rather maybe not that you'd like to be done healing, but you'd like to be done grieving, right?

48:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're hurting. [SPEAKER_01]: Can I have both? [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: And you can get to the other side. [SPEAKER_02]: Is there another side and when does that come? [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: I think healing just for human beings is an ongoing process anyway because you guys will all all of you no matter what you do within the relationship that you're in, you will all be okay, you will all get to the other side, you will all heal.

49:04 [SPEAKER_01]: But then something else is going to happen. [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully nothing will be as painful as this, but life is just filled with challenges, right? [SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to be healing in one way or another for the rest of your life, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, absolutely.

49:21 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's not be hurting forever, but I think another thing that I frequently told my friends is I'm going to have to do this work regardless of staying or going this work is going to benefit me in my life no matter what happens to my marriage and to your point as awful as this experience has been and I never want anyone that I know to go through it.

49:40 [SPEAKER_04]: It has catapulted me into a position where I have Rome, I have learned things about myself, I have created boundaries for myself and I've been able to be a witness to watch my husband transform, which is something I never thought that I would see I didn't know he needed to transform. [SPEAKER_04]: For the longest time, but watching him transform into a human that feels things, that wants connection and he's even told me growth is a lifelong thing for me.

50:07 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think I'll ever stop going to meetings. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think I'll ever stop doing therapy. [SPEAKER_04]: I think our friends need to know that this work is good. [SPEAKER_04]: It's hard, it's hard. [SPEAKER_04]: We need people alongside of us that we trust and love us in whole space, but it is good and it will be good for us.

50:22 [SPEAKER_04]: And at some point in this recovery, there will be good things. [SPEAKER_04]: There will be good things that happened. [SPEAKER_04]: And it's great to have a space that we can share those good things to because so often it's so heavy that it feels like I'm not allowed to have fun. [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not allowed to laugh or share good things [SPEAKER_04]: And I need a space to do that.

50:44 [SPEAKER_04]: And the biggest thing I would tell friends and family is you're going to be imperfect in this. [SPEAKER_04]: You're going to be so are we. [SPEAKER_04]: We are going to be imperfect. [SPEAKER_04]: That's okay. [SPEAKER_04]: If you're imperfect on it and repair, there's nothing more we want than whole healthy connected relationships.

51:00 [SPEAKER_04]: And so if you've made a mistake, that's okay. [SPEAKER_04]: And I hope that all of us, if we make a mistake, we can own that too. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Ali, what you said just now was so beautiful and I was thinking that I think a really important lesson for those who want to support a betrayed partner that they love, but they don't know what to do, is exactly what you just said to offer the space to recognize that if they try to get you to make a decision or to leave or to stay, whatever it is, that they're preventing you from going through this process that, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's some story about a butterfly that is like a caterpillar and it's trying to grow its wings and then somebody feels bad because it's struggling so much so like pulls it out and then it dies or it's wings don't grow right and I love that because that's what this feels like to me if you are in pain and hurting because someone you love is in pain and hurting it feels often like the best thing you can do is to jump in there and help them because you want them to be better like push them in some way.

52:04 [SPEAKER_01]: But then you are depriving them of that incredibly important opportunity for them to go through a process of healing. [SPEAKER_01]: They need to be able to actually sit in a lot of pain. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's hard for them and it's going to be hard for you because you love them. [SPEAKER_01]: And as someone who loves a lot of people of seeing people hurt, [SPEAKER_01]: and hurting and suffering is really hard for me.

52:27 [SPEAKER_01]: When people I love are suffering and in pain it's hard. [SPEAKER_01]: But one thing that I have learned very much and I really pass this along right now to all of you listening who want to be able to support someone that you love who is suffering is give them the opportunity to go through what they need to go through.

52:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Let them have their feelings even if those feelings feel like [SPEAKER_01]: you can't tolerate it, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you can't stand seeing them in so much pain, let them be. [SPEAKER_01]: They should be because what all of you are living through and have been living through is profoundly painful.

53:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And so for someone to try to interfere with that process in any way, that is not going to be helpful. [SPEAKER_02]: Or, in my case, in some of this is to heat some of it on, right, adding more to the paint. [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to go back to like the education piece I can't remember who brought that up.

53:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Was it you, Ellie? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Ask your betrayed friend or family member what books they've read or that they would recommend for you to read. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's audio books. [SPEAKER_02]: There's lots of different ways that you can read a book or listen to a book these days, listen to podcasts like this one, there's a few of your podcast, Marty, that I feel like are just such great foundational work, not just for betrayed partners, but for family members and friends.

53:45 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think of like the handful that you have with Dr. O'Marbon Walla, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's episode 15, 16 and 18, understanding betrayal with Dr. O'Marbon Walla. [SPEAKER_02]: There's like part one, part two and part three. [SPEAKER_02]: one of my favorite podcasts as well is number 23.

53:59 [SPEAKER_02]: 23 is my favorite number, which is how we remember the episode number of this one, the shame of staying. [SPEAKER_02]: It was just that podcast episode for me was so it was just incredible. [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's episode number 52 embracing a restorative justice model after betrayal, just because it really helps for like [SPEAKER_02]: family members and friends to understand like if you've been impacted where in my case some of my family members had been impacted by my husband's acting out behavior not physically but in like peripheral ways coming at it from like a restorative justice model like that podcast was just incredible and then [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's, um, it should I stay or should I go with the least craft?

54:39 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's episode number 63, but that one, I feel like gives friends and family members kind of an understanding of like these are the questions that we're asking ourselves as we weigh our options and our choices and what's best for me and what's best for my kids and how is this going to affect me financially and personally and professionally and like every aspect of my life has been impacted by this.

55:05 [SPEAKER_02]: and making this massive decision potentially to leave is going to impact it even further, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So that episode, I feel like really gives them a glimpse into all of the reasons that many partners choose to stay, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And no judgment for any of those reasons.

55:20 [SPEAKER_02]: We have our reasons. [SPEAKER_02]: I think is really kind of what it comes down to. [SPEAKER_02]: And then of course, one of my other favorite ones is accidentally brave with Maddie Corman. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's podcast episode number 78. [SPEAKER_01]: So can't [SPEAKER_01]: When you said number 23, I was assuming because so many people love the episode with Stan Taken.

55:41 [SPEAKER_01]: That I did the first one, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've had people say that's life changing. [SPEAKER_01]: So I assumed when you said episode 23, I was like, oh, she's going to say the Stan Taken episode. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, it's a different one. [SPEAKER_01]: Not one is great.

55:51 [SPEAKER_01]: That one is really great. [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, really good. [SPEAKER_01]: You know what else? [SPEAKER_01]: Also, we did talk today about soulbroken, but that would be a great book for people to read. [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: If you have somebody that you love who's going through betrayal trauma, reaps soulbroken, I've never met a betrayed partner who did not relate on a huge massive level to that book to the experience of ambiguous grief.

56:11 [SPEAKER_02]: to be trail bind by Michelle Maynes, right, Ellie, I think you've read that one as well. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So good. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So let's actually, I feel like we could talk forever and I just noticed the time. [SPEAKER_01]: So we don't have much time left.

56:23 [SPEAKER_01]: But what I'd love to do is give each of you the opportunity to share one thing that if you're speaking directly to somebody who wants to support someone who's going through betrayal trauma, right? [SPEAKER_01]: something that you think they can do like one specific thing that you think would have been a great resource for someone in your life to learn about or something they could have done to help you.

56:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love for you to share it and or to share something that would not be helpful that maybe you did experience that was not helpful or something that maybe you even heard from a friend or a sister and recovery group that they experienced that was really painful or [SPEAKER_01]: If you can't think of something and that's just putting you on the spot, then maybe just share some other sort of closing words that you feel would be helpful to those people who are listening today.

57:10 [SPEAKER_04]: I can go. [SPEAKER_04]: When I think of showing up well, my head goes to my brother in sister-in-law. [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the poor things I unloaded on them more than they wanted to know. [SPEAKER_04]: And my brother sent me a daily text. [SPEAKER_04]: How are you? [SPEAKER_04]: How are you doing today, Ali?

57:25 [SPEAKER_04]: And that meant more to me than anything else in the world. [SPEAKER_04]: And when I was literally worried about my husband committing suicide the week of discovery, I reached out to my sister in law said he doesn't have anybody. [SPEAKER_04]: Can you make sure he's okay? [SPEAKER_04]: And she texted him.

57:41 [SPEAKER_04]: I think the thing that they did that was so different was they were consistent. [SPEAKER_04]: They were present. [SPEAKER_04]: They weren't perfect, but they were there. [SPEAKER_04]: And they didn't go anywhere. [SPEAKER_04]: They didn't get too scared by the big things. [SPEAKER_04]: They just for present with love and consistent.

57:59 [SPEAKER_04]: Have a beautiful. [SPEAKER_03]: I'll share from my point of view, I feel like I'm the one that went and hit in a cave. [SPEAKER_03]: It stopped communication. [SPEAKER_03]: So for those of you that have friends that are like me and are resistant to kind of a phone call in that communication or hiding, I would agree Ali a text message without expectations or guilt of, you know, why aren't you answering me or [SPEAKER_03]: I think just trying to picture yourself in the most neutral way in the most unconditional love that you can muster and just be on here for you.

58:32 [SPEAKER_03]: If you need to talk, I love you. [SPEAKER_03]: I think dropping off things would have been really helpful. [SPEAKER_03]: And then once that person who is like me, [SPEAKER_03]: It's ready to talk. [SPEAKER_03]: Be so patient with them. [SPEAKER_03]: Just give them that space to say one word at a time and retreat if needed and eventually, you know, they'll find that safety and know that it's not you and I'm sure that they love you dearly and they're just their hands are full great grief takes up all of our great.

59:01 [SPEAKER_05]: Just hear you say that made me breathe a sigh of relief. [SPEAKER_05]: Like, oh, that's the best. [SPEAKER_05]: Just the check-ins without obligation are everything. [SPEAKER_05]: The understanding that I'm not reaching out to you because I expect something back. [SPEAKER_05]: I just want you to know that I'm thinking about you.

59:21 [SPEAKER_05]: And if you need me, I'm here. [SPEAKER_05]: because there are days I can't take how many days I've gotten a text that arrived on my phone at just the right moment and it was the thing that got me through the day. [SPEAKER_05]: It was just the text. [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't have it in me to have a conversation but just receiving that love literally got me through the day.

59:39 [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, I think the sense of being cared for quietly and gently, [SPEAKER_05]: and just having a kind of soft presence in the person's life, we will come to you. [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I hate to use it sort of a cliche like this, but it is a little bit like dealing with a wounded animal, right?

59:56 [SPEAKER_05]: You have to let them feel ready to come out of, sometimes the cage becomes their safe space, and you have to be willing just quietly sit, sit to the side, don't keep reaching out, just when they're ready to come to you, they will come to you. [SPEAKER_05]: But them knowing that you're right there, [SPEAKER_05]: right outside the cage waiting for them whenever they're ready is just it's beautiful you know it's so hard when you love someone who's in pain to not want to give advice and give all the things and fix the problems because that's how I was before this happened to me but now I understand what people mean when they say don't want advice I just want your presence and your love that's it

1:00:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Man, I don't even know what I could add to that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was so good. [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me, right after disclosure, and I think I shared earlier like, my husband's been to rehab, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And so things that I was missing were like, physical connection, right?

1:00:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, even offering a hug. [SPEAKER_02]: actually had a friend, she and I went, we were on a somatic retreat together. [SPEAKER_02]: We were kind of sharing, you know, some things that we had been through and like the lack of physical closeness or connection. [SPEAKER_02]: And it was this beautiful moment where she was like, if you are comfortable with it, you can lay on my lap and just be.

1:01:12 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was laying there and she started playing with my hair. [SPEAKER_02]: And I just let loose like just all of these tears and all of these emotions that needed to come out with a safe person were finally able to be released like the waterworks just came and they needed to and I [SPEAKER_02]: My personality is that I would typically not let someone do that for me.

1:01:40 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was a very foreign thing for me. [SPEAKER_02]: So even when she suggested it, I was like, I don't know, see as a little, but I was like, you know what? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm just going to surrender to this because I probably really do need a hug or physical touch or connection in a way that like, I literally can't get from my husband who's not here right now.

1:01:56 [SPEAKER_02]: I did the beginning of this process. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have children yet. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have kids that I could just snuggle and cuddle with. [SPEAKER_02]: Now I do and, you know, they're a great source of comfort, but yeah, maybe it is just that hug or just sitting next to that person and, you know, putting your hand on their knee or, you know, asking them like, can I rub your back or safe physical touch and physical connection.

1:02:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Something that I think could be really, really sweet is when somebody offers to even spend the night with you. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want me to sleep over? [SPEAKER_01]: Right? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want me to just come over? [SPEAKER_01]: I can bring in takeout. [SPEAKER_01]: We can wear our comfy clothes.

1:02:34 [SPEAKER_01]: We can watch a movie. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just crash there. [SPEAKER_01]: Often we don't want to talk about it, but we don't want to be alone in it either. [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that is human beings, we desperately need is we need to be witnessed. [SPEAKER_01]: We need to be witnessed in our joy and in our pain in our sorrow.

1:02:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes somebody just saying, I could just be there. [SPEAKER_01]: Literally, yeah, you can lay down in my lap and I'll hit you, right? [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna hug you. [SPEAKER_01]: We can lay on the couch next to each other and watch a comedy and just laugh, those are the things that are so, so, so important.

1:03:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And those are things that are pretty easy to do, right? [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to as a friend or a loved one have all the answers at all. [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't have to understand what your loved one is going through. [SPEAKER_01]: And you probably won't be able to understand.

1:03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Like Rachel said, this really is something. [SPEAKER_01]: If you haven't gone through it, it's going to be very difficult to imagine. [SPEAKER_01]: really the depth of the despair and the pain and the complexity that's involved. [SPEAKER_03]: My, I was just going to ask if it would be okay to share a little encouragement with those friends of the partners as well.

1:03:37 [SPEAKER_03]: And what I mean by that is this is a long road for us as the partners to put ourselves by together. [SPEAKER_03]: It is a long road and I'm not done, but I can already tell that we will all get through this for sure. [SPEAKER_03]: We're already thriving. [SPEAKER_03]: We will be stronger for it.

1:03:53 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I can already feel it starting to grow with many of these new to tools. [SPEAKER_03]: these new understanding. [SPEAKER_03]: It's making me a better mother. [SPEAKER_03]: It's making me a better co-worker. [SPEAKER_03]: Like these things can be really beautiful if they're working with the right therapist who can help with that betrayal trauma and guide them through that.

1:04:13 [SPEAKER_03]: And so just note that yes, this is hard for you and the outside too, and it won't last forever. [SPEAKER_03]: There's a prize at the end of the race to be had. [SPEAKER_03]: Great, Liz. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, at the end of that airplane, you're going to get that medal. [SPEAKER_04]: And if there are kids, don't forget about them too, because their whole world has been rocked as well, and I have two friends who I would have crashed without their support the first two weeks especially, and their kids are my kids best friends and they kept everything the same as if we weren't missing a beat.

1:04:48 [SPEAKER_04]: And my kids their recovery has been so much better because they have had people that love and surround them without adding their opinion because the kids don't need to hear that they just need space to have their normal life. [SPEAKER_02]: Ellie, that was actually one of the reasons why all of the offers that I got from people to like if you need to come home right like even that I was like I need normalcy my kids need normalcy like I'm not leaving my home I'm not packing a bag and abrooting them and taking them out of here for the next couple of weeks after all of this has just happened they need to be home and be in school or going to daycare and you know doing all of the same things that they would normally be doing and so.

1:05:28 [SPEAKER_02]: That's beautiful, Ali. [SPEAKER_02]: I love that you had that experience and having conversations with anybody who was going to be around my kids who knew what was going on. [SPEAKER_02]: And having boundaries around like be careful what you say around my children, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Do not bring up what's going on or hash judgment or talk trash about their dad or anything that's happening, right?

1:05:48 [SPEAKER_02]: So just being very conscious. [SPEAKER_02]: And there were times two where I had said something in front of the kids and like my [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, so the kids said, and I'm like, ugh, I must have said something where they could hear me and then having to like walk that back and go to the kids and talk through that process.

1:06:06 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think it's beautiful when you have that type of support and that you know that your kids are kind of in a safe space and they're being cocooned and loved on to yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I was just thinking while you guys were talking, I think all of you know, have this incredible [SPEAKER_01]: When I decided that I wanted to have this adorable little boy, I thought it was going to be much easier than it was.

1:06:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It was not easy to bring him into the world. [SPEAKER_01]: And it took about five years and there was a lot of loss. [SPEAKER_01]: Some loss where it was so painful, I couldn't imagine that I was going to be able to like, you know, get up in function as I know all of you, you all know exactly what that's like.

1:06:45 [SPEAKER_01]: to feel that way. [SPEAKER_01]: And there were a few times where I had a couple of people in my life who loved me so much and were in so much pain because of how much pain I was in, it was almost impossible for them to tolerate seeing me so sad and grieving so much and they tried to convince me to give up.

1:07:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I gave up, you guys, I wouldn't have my incredible, amazing, adorable, funny little seven-year-old boy who is a love of my life and who's here. [SPEAKER_01]: And I truly believe, and I mean this. [SPEAKER_01]: that for whatever reason that was the journey I was meant to have because if I hadn't had the losses, I wouldn't have him and he is my child and that's who I meant to have.

1:07:24 [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, there was agony which I wouldn't wish on anybody like you guys said you wouldn't wish this on somebody. [SPEAKER_01]: And yet that was the path that my life was taking me on and I had to have and thank God very few people said that to me. [SPEAKER_01]: But that was really painful and I'll tell you that I took a step back from those relationships for a period of time.

1:07:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And I surrounded myself by the amazing people that I had who were like, keep going, you've got this. [SPEAKER_01]: I know you're going to be a mom. [SPEAKER_01]: There was no doubt. [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a lot of that and I will say by the way that those who [SPEAKER_01]: tried to discourage me.

1:08:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It did not come from a bad place. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it came from so much love, so much love for me that it was like, please don't put yourself in the situation again to get hurt again and to have more loss. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not about judging or being mad at. [SPEAKER_01]: But the reason that we're doing this podcast today, the reason that we're having this conversation, is to share with you these very human experiences that we've all had around our pain and how those who love us can walk us through it and witness us and support us and help us survive.

1:08:34 [SPEAKER_01]: What you can do and what you cannot do, that's going to really help impact the experience that we have. [SPEAKER_05]: I love the idea that we could transform the girl, you leave him, you're like, just a girl, you got this girl got this love that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you're going to tell you what you got to do and I'm here for you through it right love it.

1:08:57 [SPEAKER_03]: Listen to yourself, find yourself. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I look that which is a whole other journey that could be like a completely different podcast, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, there's going to be more. [SPEAKER_01]: I can just tell that we're going to have some subsequent podcast episodes.

1:09:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I just want to say to all four of you that you inspire me and the people that are listening don't have the benefit of seeing your faces as I do here because we're on zoom. [SPEAKER_01]: And I've seen the emotion and I've seen the pain and I have felt it in our conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: in order to get to where you are right now sitting in front of me and sharing all of these incredible thoughts and ideas and all of your emotions and all the suggestions to get here you've been through a lot of pain.

1:09:36 [SPEAKER_01]: You really are on to see it here and I'm grateful that you showed up and that you allowed me to share your voices with others. [SPEAKER_01]: I have no doubt and I mean at no doubt that this podcast episode is going to be incredibly helpful to so many people. [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot imagine how many betrayed [SPEAKER_01]: are listening to this hearing your voices as you're speaking and feeling like they get it.

1:10:00 [SPEAKER_01]: That's me. [SPEAKER_01]: They understand and to be able to give all of our listeners something that they could take now like a tangible thing and give to somebody and say, please listen to this, please listen to this. [SPEAKER_01]: There are ways you can help. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, with love, give it to them with love.

1:10:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So, thank you all for being here. [SPEAKER_01]: I need so grateful. [SPEAKER_01]: You are so welcome and Demi. [SPEAKER_01]: Keep doing what you're doing because it's clearly, it's clearly working. [SPEAKER_01]: Slowly but surely. [SPEAKER_01]: One day at a time, let's have another one.

1:10:32 [SPEAKER_04]: Who's got one? [SPEAKER_01]: Come on, Liam, something girl. [SPEAKER_01]: You got this? [SPEAKER_01]: You shall pass. [SPEAKER_02]: There you go. [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you to all of my listeners. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you guys for being here for another episode of helping couples heal. [SPEAKER_01]: Please take care of yourself and I will see you next week.

1:10:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again, you guys. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal podcast where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

1:11:19 [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

1:11:38 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.