97. Navigating Betrayal Anger with Dr. Crystal Hollenbeck

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marny Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couples heel podcasts was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they can slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, everyone. [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to the Helping Couples Hill podcast. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm really excited to have with me today a colleague Dr.

1:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Crystal Hollandback, who's a CSAT therapist and an educator and a betrayal trauma specialist. [SPEAKER_02]: Crystal has more than 20 years of experience supporting individuals and couples in healing from betrayal trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: Crystal is known for her compassionate, grounded approach.

1:47 [SPEAKER_02]: She integrates attachment, trauma neuroscience, and experiential work with her clients to help them rebuild safety, trust, and connection. [SPEAKER_02]: Crystal has a myriad of certifications behind her name, which I will ask her to introduce, but we can add to her list of accomplishments.

2:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Her most recent one would be her new book, the Trail Trauma Anger, and we're gonna be talking about that today. [SPEAKER_02]: So, Crystal, welcome, thank you for being here. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm so excited to talk with you today, Marny. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: Of course.

2:19 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, tell us a little bit more. [SPEAKER_02]: I gave this, you know, polished little introduction about you, but really, who are you professionally? [SPEAKER_02]: And how did you get here? [SPEAKER_02]: How did you get to where you are now? [SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, we'll talk about your book, but I'm curious about the evolution of your work.

2:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, we say or at least I say I'm a therapist for a reason, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And so being a therapist is my own post-traumatic growth. [SPEAKER_01]: I am a survivor of complex trauma and didn't get therapy and healing until well into my adulthood and then God called me to become a therapist and I started down that road.

2:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have three specialties, which is relationships, sex therapy, and trauma recovery. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I treat the betrayer, the betrayed, and the couple. [SPEAKER_01]: And I also help couples move from unhealthy to healthy sexuality. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of my specialties and what I do.

3:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in Florida. [SPEAKER_01]: I have offices in Orlando in Tampa, and I also do three day intensive. [SPEAKER_01]: Just if you know you have relationship problems and you want to really build and maintain a healthy committed relationship and then I have a three day trauma intensive and they're all individuals one couple at a time one person at a time so that's my area of practice.

3:42 [SPEAKER_02]: But my claim to fame is being a Gigi of course a Gigi what's that that is a grandmother that's what I thought okay I wanted to make sure so your claim to fame is being a Gigi and that's for your today your your grandson is nine. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's first day. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but it's his name, Jude.

3:59 [SPEAKER_02]: Happy birthday, Jude. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's a wonderful. [SPEAKER_01]: My claim to fame is being a mom. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and Jude in your son are about the same age. [SPEAKER_01]: So you understand that beautiful age that they are there so much fun.

4:11 [SPEAKER_02]: It's really an incredible thing. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: My son has been interested in now recently in learning about what I do. [SPEAKER_02]: So he knows that I own a company and I have a podcast called Helping Couples Heal and he'll sometimes I'll catch him introducing himself and saying, hello, I'm saying, welcome to Helping Couples Heal.

4:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And so recently he's been asking me mom, what do you talk about on the podcast? [SPEAKER_02]: And what do you help people with? [SPEAKER_02]: And it's been really cute to see that he's developing an interest in what I do. [SPEAKER_02]: I have to be very careful with how I respond to and explain it.

4:39 [SPEAKER_02]: that's so cute. [SPEAKER_02]: So all right, well let's dive in and talk about a topic that to be honest with you, I haven't really devoted an entire topic to partner anger. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a given. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's obviously I've never met a betrayed partner who is not angry, heard furious.

4:57 [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, about the train and what's happened. [SPEAKER_02]: But I haven't had a podcast really devoted to that. [SPEAKER_02]: Nor have I seen a book before yours that was dedicated, or is dedicated specifically to this topic. [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for doing that. [SPEAKER_02]: And let's talk about it.

5:14 [SPEAKER_02]: Crystal, how did you decide to write this book? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was certifying an anger management therapy and as I started to treat more and more betray partners, anger is a very significant part of their healing process. [SPEAKER_01]: And although there may be a chapter here and there or a paragraph or something in a lot of the betrayal trauma books out there which there's so much good work out there.

5:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't feel like I had a resource for them. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I started to develop a protocol and it's the skip protocol, SCIP. [SPEAKER_01]: And that is to help my clients who've been betrayed and not been betrayed, process anger and anxiety, and it just takes a few minutes. [SPEAKER_01]: So as I was working on developing, trying to help them, I was taking notes and realized that they're experiencing anger in different phases at different times.

6:05 [SPEAKER_01]: The anger shows up differently. [SPEAKER_01]: So I just started to pay attention to that and what their needs were during that time in the betrayal trauma healing process. [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's how the book came about. [SPEAKER_01]: I could not find a resource learning just like you said.

6:20 [SPEAKER_01]: There was no resource I could get into them that says, this is going to help you understand the anger. [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I wanted it to be able to help the betrayer [SPEAKER_01]: understand the partners anger, also give them tools and skills, and then for the helping professional, you're exactly right.

6:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So many helping professionals don't know what to do. [SPEAKER_01]: You have this client come in who has anger because of just the injustice of being betrayed. [SPEAKER_01]: I was just going to say that word. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so unjust. [SPEAKER_01]: And how do you say to them, okay, all of these horrible things have been done to you, but you're not allowed to be angry and fight back.

6:59 [SPEAKER_01]: You're [SPEAKER_02]: You're too angry, don't be angry, right? [SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to work with you until you're less angry, go away and work on the anger. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: When that happens, it puts the problem back on the client. [SPEAKER_02]: So the client, the betrayed partner now, becomes the problem.

7:15 [SPEAKER_01]: You're exactly right, in our professional field for many years, we pathologized the partner's anger. [SPEAKER_01]: We looked at them as the incotependent. [SPEAKER_01]: They weren't forgiving. [SPEAKER_01]: They were just angry and vengeful. [SPEAKER_01]: They had personality disorders.

7:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we just pathologize that anger instead of understanding that that anger comes from the injustice of the betrayal. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the source of it. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I imagine that when someone hears you say that, [SPEAKER_02]: they're going to take a big breath and then a big exhale with relief because I think that this is such a source of pain for so many betrayed partners.

7:54 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that when that message was out there that there are too much or their angers too much, [SPEAKER_02]: that would also be fuel for the addict in early recovery or the betrayer to sort of get on that bandwagon and say that back to their partner. [SPEAKER_02]: And so the partner was not getting seen at all in their very understandable and expected anger.

8:16 [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for saying that. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you so much. [SPEAKER_01]: That was my heart's desire is that betrayed partners would feel validated. [SPEAKER_01]: The full title of the book is the trail trauma anger. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not crazy, you're angry, and you should be.

8:33 [SPEAKER_01]: How to process complex anger while healing from the impact of sexual [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I want people to understand. [SPEAKER_01]: That anger is normal and healthy. [SPEAKER_01]: And I developed a definition of betrayal to our anger where the most important point that I want people to understand is that it's immediate and then it's unfolding.

8:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So when you are first portrayed and you have discovery, you're immediately angry, you've got multiple things going on at one time, you've got PTSD symptoms, you've got broken relational attachment, you've got complex anger and then you've got grief that starts immediately. [SPEAKER_01]: And so the anger is a part of the grief as well.

9:13 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when that first happens, it's immediate. [SPEAKER_01]: But what people have a hard time understanding is you don't even know all the things you [SPEAKER_01]: that unfolds over time, and so many times, the betrayer who doesn't know what to do, I believe their traumatized too, and they're angry with themselves, and they get angry back and defensive, and it's so hard for both of them.

9:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But what happens is the betrayer's like, when we need to quit being angry, and what I want them to understand is, they don't want to be angry, but there's more and more and more that's revealed that causes that anger. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's what's so ironic about the whole thing is that, you know, we hear all the time about these staggered disclosures and not telling the truth and full and so you're right if a partner is doing some good work and healing some of the anger, expressing it appropriately, dealing with the anger, healing from the anger, and then learn some new stuff.

10:09 [SPEAKER_02]: Now they're not only going to be more angry about the new information, but also the fact that they were still lied to, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Like there was more secrets, and then angry about what might still be secretive that I don't yet know. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so true, I have a chapter in the book that's entitled so many reasons to be angry.

10:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And I take the past, present, and future. [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many things a betrayed partner has to be angry about. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, even angry that they are so angry that they have to go to therapy. [SPEAKER_01]: Angry that this has to be part of their story. [SPEAKER_01]: Angry that they have to keep the secret.

10:47 [SPEAKER_01]: angry, they have to go around and everybody's praising their husband. [SPEAKER_01]: Women betray as well, but I'll just use for the example today that the husband would be the betrayer, but the wife would have to go around and pretend like everything's okay. [SPEAKER_01]: And listen to everybody, tell them how wonderful their husband is.

11:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, there's just so many things that I just want that validated and not only that of our educational purposes that people can understand that, [SPEAKER_02]: So can you give us some close notes about this? [SPEAKER_02]: If somebody was going to pick this book up, well first of all, let's talk about if a betrayed partner was going to read the book.

11:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think that everybody should read it. [SPEAKER_02]: I think betrayed partners should read it and those who have betrayed. [SPEAKER_02]: Before betrayed partner, what are they going to get out of it? [SPEAKER_02]: Besides the validation of their experience, but from like an educational perspective.

11:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So what I've done is in 2023, I did a betrayal trauma-inverse survey with betrayed partners. [SPEAKER_01]: And I've taken the information from that survey and I've incorporated it into the book. [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to read lots of their words from that survey. [SPEAKER_01]: It's broken up into three parts.

11:53 [SPEAKER_01]: The first part is betrayal trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: I give the foundation of [SPEAKER_01]: Discovery, disclosure, the impact, and then I give a full treatment plan. [SPEAKER_01]: Morning, I'm sure you've seen this. [SPEAKER_01]: I've had so many people come to me and they were there before a year and never told about disclosure.

12:11 [SPEAKER_01]: They were going to couples there at the instead of getting help for betrayal trauma and it just caused more damage to their relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: So I laid out a full treatment plan on what to expect. [SPEAKER_01]: as a betrayed partner entering therapy here's what you should expect.

12:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I also talk about complex trauma because I know myself, I am a survivor of complex trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that until I started to get help for a betrayal trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: So I used to just say I had a difficult childhood, you know, I didn't even understand the depths of how I was traumatized.

12:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I explained that if you're stuck in anger, if you're not noticing progress in treatment, it might be because you have other trauma wounds that have not healed. [SPEAKER_01]: So that is part one that we talk about. [SPEAKER_01]: And then part two is where I really talk about all the reasons to be angry.

13:05 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a chapter for the betrayer, where I've taken information from the survey, and I've given that to the betrayer, I asked on the survey, what could your betrayer do to increase your anger and what could they do to decrease it? [SPEAKER_01]: But a great question. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.

13:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Because the betrayers trying their best at tons, but they, you know, they don't know what to do. [SPEAKER_01]: And they're need healing themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: So it can be so challenging. [SPEAKER_01]: So I lay that out for the very clearly, and I can't remember the percentage off the top of my head.

13:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was something like [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say like 87% or something very hired in the 90s that Betray partner said they do want to give their Betray or the opportunity to earn their trust back. [SPEAKER_01]: 85 and a half percent of the partners chose to stay in the relationship.

13:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So they are giving the betrayer the opportunity to get help to rebuild trust, to build integrity in this area. [SPEAKER_01]: So oftentimes, the betrayer sees that betrayed partner is so angry and hateful towards them. [SPEAKER_01]: Really, they're hurt. [SPEAKER_01]: They're hurt and traumatized and overwhelmed.

14:19 [SPEAKER_01]: They want you to heal and be there for them. [SPEAKER_01]: They want to heal. [SPEAKER_01]: But the anger shows up in so many ways. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we know the betrayer really contributes to that at times. [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, we give the skills for that. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, [SPEAKER_01]: In part two, I talk about what happens with anger on the brain in the nervous system and I develop a skip protocol to help you understand what's happening with you in your angry and how to calm down and process it and communicate in a certain way.

14:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And then part three is a model that I developed, the betrayal trauma-climbing model. [SPEAKER_01]: So I just took the across stick calming, and it's the BTA-climbing model, it's what I call it. [SPEAKER_01]: And we go through these phases that I mentioned to you that I was taking notes on and noticing.

15:09 [SPEAKER_01]: So I take you through the seven phases, and in each phase I give skills and tools and things that help you as you're healing [SPEAKER_01]: This is really incredible. [SPEAKER_02]: This feels like, on some level, it would be, I'm sort of thinking of like a little Bible for people that are dealing with betrayal trauma.

15:29 [SPEAKER_02]: Cause in the past, I've heard partners refer to certain books that they've read as this is my Bible on taking this around with me. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm caring it with me because it feels so validating and it makes me feel safe because I feel so understood. [SPEAKER_02]: As you were talking, that's what I was getting from what you were describing.

15:46 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I do a couple's workshop I've been doing it for many, many years and in that workshop I share a lot of quotes from betrayed partners and one of them is from a betrayer who said, I used to have such a hard time with my partner because she was so angry and now I realize why she was so angry and my responsibility in that and I'm embarrassed that I didn't see it sooner.

16:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I love that. [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: And now I know what I need to do to help. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I would love it crystal if you could share a little bit like when you said that you asked those betrayed partners in your survey, what are some of the things that your partner can do to either make you more angry or to what was the specific wording you use heal your anger or make you less angry increase it and decrease and decrease and I'm curious what some of those answers were.

16:39 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I have all of my clients listen to your podcast anyway because you do such a great job of helping both people individually as well as the couple. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just going to turn to the chapter real quick. [SPEAKER_01]: It's chapter seven in the book. [SPEAKER_01]: So lies inconsistency and not expressing empathy and becoming defensive are the most common ways of a truer's words and actions will trigger anger to increase for a betrayed partner.

17:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to hear what they can do to help decrease the anger. [SPEAKER_01]: So here are what they check that apply as what your betrayer did or does that help your anger to decrease. [SPEAKER_01]: Taking steps to be accountable to rebuild trust and attending therapy where the top two ways their betrayer could help decrease their anger.

17:30 [SPEAKER_01]: In addition, survey participants check the boxes beside consistency which we know consistency is such a great foundation for rebuilding trust and allowing the partner to feel safe enough so that she doesn't have to be angry. [SPEAKER_01]: all the time she can process it. [SPEAKER_01]: Following through on promises for change, apologizing often, staying present with me when I have triggered her upset, expressing empathy, talking about the betrayal without becoming defensive, talking to me kindly, respecting my boundaries, being transparent and open, not pressuring me to forgive or move on, [SPEAKER_01]: sharing information with me without having to ask.

18:10 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big one. [SPEAKER_01]: And answering my questions without becoming defensive. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you notice a lot of that, what they said there, it really for me comes down to being present and communicating, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Staying present with that partner who's angry, [SPEAKER_01]: just helps them so much.

18:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's hard because of the betrayer, you have all that shame and guilt and you've hurt the person you love and then they're hurting and they're angry with you and you've caused it it's so hard. [SPEAKER_01]: So I explain in that chapter, if you could look at your betrayed partner as somebody who's hurting and wounded instead of angry, then you're there to help them.

18:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, if somebody's angry with you, you kind of want to shut down, right, which is natural. [SPEAKER_01]: What you did you did? [SPEAKER_01]: But what's happening right now? [SPEAKER_01]: If you could just stay present and right now, she's just hurting about something. [SPEAKER_01]: That kind of helps you to come out of that shame and stay in the present.

19:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And she's going to be hurting more and her anger is going to escalate the more you dismiss walk away, shut down, get angry, in return. [SPEAKER_02]: lack empathy, be unkind, all of those things. [SPEAKER_02]: I think can just exacerbate the situation instead of using that as an opportunity for repair and healing.

19:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so true. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know my husband would be quiet. [SPEAKER_01]: He would go quiet and that would enrage me. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I would rather him talk to me in a fight than even to be quiet, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Because when he's quiet, what's the message that he's sending to you?

19:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't matter. [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't care. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't matter. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not important. [SPEAKER_01]: And he really learned how to stay in those conversations with me, which we're really hard to do. [SPEAKER_01]: But yes, and sometimes also the betrayer will instead of going silent, they'll be aggressive back.

20:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Rachel Rage don't yell at them. [SPEAKER_01]: They'll shut them down a lot of narcissistic rage. [SPEAKER_01]: They know how to shut that partner down. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: Right. [SPEAKER_01]: They'll shut them down. [SPEAKER_01]: They'll rage. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's coming out of their own window, this.

20:15 [SPEAKER_01]: So I also give like conversation within the block of how to use communication skills, calm yourself down and nurture yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: And then talk about why you're angry and stay in that conversation. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm hoping that the betrayers who are listening to our conversation can recognize what a gift this is, what an opportunity for them to sort of assuming for those who are having trouble with their partner's anger and who do respond to it in ways that you and I are talking about that are not really helpful.

20:44 [SPEAKER_02]: If they can take a moment to reflect on this and sort of reframe the anger as hurt, exactly like what you just said a few minutes ago, Crystal, that it's hurt [SPEAKER_02]: and that if they can look at their own response to it and make a different choice and just try that even. [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see if you get a different response.

21:06 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do want to say that like you said the traitors are also traumatized people who are struggling with their own shame, regression, trauma, anger, all of those things and so [SPEAKER_02]: I just sort of want to put this reminder out that for a betrayer you've got a lot of work to do around learning how to regulate your own nervous system so that you're able to do exactly what it is we're talking about right now because you're going to have a really hard time calming yourself to be present for your partner and help decrease their anger if your brain has been hijacked and now you are [SPEAKER_02]: activated outside of your window of tolerance.

21:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me, so true, what you're saying. [SPEAKER_01]: In the book, at the end of the chapters, I have a section that says recommendations for the betrayer, and there I try to give them encouragement, but I try to give them recommendations for themselves of how to [SPEAKER_01]: have empathy of how to nurture themselves, of how to understand that anger and my skip protocol which there's a PDF on my website and you have it to share with people as well.

22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It helps both the betrayer and the betrayed when they're angry, anxious, off upset to go nurture yourself for a few minutes and process what that is. [SPEAKER_01]: you would rush over there in a minute and make sure she was, it didn't matter if she was screaming yelling and kicking at you, you would be there to try to help her.

22:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So think about trauma is woundedness. [SPEAKER_01]: So think about she's wounded. [SPEAKER_01]: She may be screaming yelling, I don't know, slashing the pictures off the wall, whatever it may be, but she's wounded. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you can look at it that way, it helps you to stay present more.

22:51 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you mentioned quite a few times the skip protocol and I know that you said that you've got the PDF that's available to people and that's wonderful and I'll put in the show notes and I'm sure that they'll get it in the book as well. [SPEAKER_02]: But for those listening who are curious, can you give me just a little bit of an idea of what that protocol is about or how I can help?

23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_01]: It just takes a few minutes and so it's SCLP and it's pronounced skip, but I couldn't come up with the K to come up with what I needed. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's SCIP, but it is sit down, calm down, identify and process. [SPEAKER_01]: And what I do is, I want you to find that calming space that you can go to, it may be a chair or a bedroom, it may be your car or a bathroom if you're out and about somewhere.

23:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you want to get your calming essentials together. [SPEAKER_01]: And that would be thinking about your senses. [SPEAKER_01]: So you wouldn't have some essential oil. [SPEAKER_01]: I get them in bulk on Amazon, but you can get them down at Walgreens or whatever your local drug store is.

23:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But some essential oil for smell, some tip tax for taste, some tissues, something to journal, a lot of people journal on their phone, or if you have a notebook and a pen, and then you want to have something in there for meaning. [SPEAKER_01]: In mind, I have this big pink plastic diamond that my grandson gave me, it just reminds me I'm loved, and I have a smooth stone, I'm a Christian, and it says, Jesus, and it just reminds me I'm never alone.

24:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I have something in there of [SPEAKER_01]: And so you get your bag of combing essentials together and you could have that in your glove box and that drawer beside a chair in your purse or briefcase or backpack. [SPEAKER_01]: And so what you want to do is as soon as you recognize your upset, you immediately go sit down.

24:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a good time to talk. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're with somebody in a conversation, you can say, I'm going to go take a 10 minute break [SPEAKER_01]: You go sedandle, you take a deep breath, you calm down by going through your senses, and that would be looking at colouring the room, closing your eyes and listening to the sounds in the room.

24:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Have the tick tack for taste, the essential oil and your nose for smell. [SPEAKER_01]: Touch a clothing, you know, they usually have texture or it's soft. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're crying, cry it out. [SPEAKER_01]: Crying is such a good emotion. [SPEAKER_01]: Just cry it out. [SPEAKER_01]: And then once you do that, you've actually calm the brain down.

25:07 [SPEAKER_01]: When we can calm the brain down because when you're angry, as you know, Marty, you're a middeline. [SPEAKER_01]: Your brain is an overdrive. [SPEAKER_01]: And so your frontal cortex, which is your logic and reasoning, shuts down. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not working. [SPEAKER_01]: That's why when we are angry and all of us have probably done this, we're angry.

25:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we calm down later. [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, oh, I could have handled that better. [SPEAKER_01]: Why did I say that or what did I do? [SPEAKER_01]: Or sometimes we don't even remember. [SPEAKER_01]: I've played a don't even remember what they said or did. [SPEAKER_01]: That's because when the amygdala in your brain is an overdrive, that's the emotional part of your brain.

25:40 [SPEAKER_01]: When you are angry, anxious, frustrated, upset, that is going an overdrive and when that happens, your brain cannot take in memories and your frontal cortex, which is your logic and reasoning, does not work. [SPEAKER_01]: Once you calm the brain, then your frontal cortex starts working again, and it sends the message through the vagal system to your nervous system that we're okay.

26:05 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be okay. [SPEAKER_01]: So it kind of calms us down, and then we can identify what we're upset about. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the eye, and then the P is processing, and I use a legal principle. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's all based in cognitive behavioral therapy. [SPEAKER_01]: And I recommend people have a lego in their calming essentials, [SPEAKER_01]: Go what you do is you recognize what about this is out of my control.

26:26 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the Lego part of the Lego. [SPEAKER_01]: What do you need to let go of, right? [SPEAKER_01]: We've all done it. [SPEAKER_01]: We've all talked about stressed about 12 to on things that we can't do anything about. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, we have to really say, okay, this is out of my control.

26:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't choose to let it go, which means I'm not going to think about it. [SPEAKER_01]: Talk about it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's done. [SPEAKER_01]: Then the building block side of the leg out, now what can we do? [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I can go back to the conversation and restart. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I can make an apology, ask for an apology, establish a boundary.

26:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I need to just go take care of myself and do some self-care. [SPEAKER_01]: And so you can then choose with your cognition working. [SPEAKER_01]: What do I need to do? [SPEAKER_01]: What do I need? [SPEAKER_01]: And then I recommend just take a few minutes of journal. [SPEAKER_01]: What happened?

27:10 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you realize? [SPEAKER_01]: Because that helps you later to look for patterns. [SPEAKER_01]: I have people to get angry morning. [SPEAKER_01]: They'll say to me, I don't know why when I try to identify like, you know, because I help you and them to say, well, what happened? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, did they say something need something?

27:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you just get a turnaround and nowhere? [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes they're like, I just can identify it and I say, well, that's okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Journal, what time a day is it? [SPEAKER_01]: where you alone or with, you know, so you can claim a journal a little bit. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you can see, is there a pattern here?

27:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we can kind of figure out maybe some more of your needs. [SPEAKER_01]: But thank you for letting me explain that. [SPEAKER_01]: That is the skip protocol. [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. [SPEAKER_02]: I think so many people need a structured process to deal with things. [SPEAKER_02]: Listen, angers one of the most normal human emotions.

27:54 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not. [SPEAKER_02]: a bad thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I was just doing an interview yesterday when we were talking about healthy anger. [SPEAKER_02]: And there are people that will say, well, how can anger be healthy? [SPEAKER_02]: And just to anyone who's listening anger is very healthy. [SPEAKER_02]: It's how we express our anger and what we do with our anger that can become problematic.

28:11 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think because when we get angry, we just can lose it. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that expression I just lost it. [SPEAKER_02]: being able to have a go-to set of actual tools, skills, specific things I love that you're coming back, that's already there for you, so that you're prepared when it happens.

28:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I hear from a lot of clients that come in for help, I want you to give me actual tools for when I'm in it, when I am struggling, what can I do? [SPEAKER_02]: Because at that point, I just need to know what next step to take because my brain is not really functioning very well. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so true.

28:46 [SPEAKER_01]: When you understand that there's a physiological issue going on here, then it helps you to notice us go do that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I have my clients' practice at when they're not angry, so they can get it down and know what to do and to work through it. [SPEAKER_01]: And the whole premise of my book is based on be angry.

29:03 [SPEAKER_01]: but don't hurt yourself and someone else when you are. [SPEAKER_01]: Anger says something's not right. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's very healthy, but you're right. [SPEAKER_01]: I help people to understand how to process it and communicate so that you get your needs met. [SPEAKER_02]: I just can't help but think about how so many of these skills that people have to learn are also so connected to nervous system regulation.

29:26 [SPEAKER_02]: and I do a lot of work with Shane and so just again realizing how Shane just like anger can be activated so quickly and so really having skills in place in ways to work with your nervous system and to calm yourself that you're able to stay present to engage in reparative behaviors is so important.

29:44 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it is. [SPEAKER_01]: And when you talk about the shame, probably every client that I see who we're talking about the trail trauma anger, they have shame. [SPEAKER_01]: They have shame about what they've done in their anger. [SPEAKER_01]: They've lashed out aggressively or they've done things that are passive aggressive.

30:00 [SPEAKER_01]: They have shame about what their partner did. [SPEAKER_01]: They have self-directed anger. [SPEAKER_01]: which is how did I not know? [SPEAKER_01]: Why didn't I say something I suspected? [SPEAKER_01]: So there's the self-directed anger that's happening. [SPEAKER_01]: There's the anger that you can't control what's happening.

30:18 [SPEAKER_01]: There's the anger that your life is never going to be the same. [SPEAKER_01]: This is now part of your story. [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much shame whether you're keeping the secret or you're telling people there's shame in both of those. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, what I do is I say it's normal to feel ashamed of things, and it's normal to be angry about those things.

30:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But let's process it, let's nurture you. [SPEAKER_01]: The way I give an example is think about children whether you have your own children or maybe you have. [SPEAKER_01]: Mises and nephews or, but when you notice a child is upset, the first thing we do is we go hug them. [SPEAKER_01]: Sounds what my skip protocol is for us to do.

31:03 [SPEAKER_01]: When we're not okay, I want you to go nurture you. [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to go calm yourself down. [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on with you? [SPEAKER_01]: Process that. [SPEAKER_01]: What do you need? [SPEAKER_01]: That's the whole premise of the skip protocol is really to nurture yourself.

31:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I love this. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to teach this to my son. [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm going to do a little like even maybe this weekend a little sort of adventure with him where we make his calming bag. [SPEAKER_02]: And we do have a lot of really great things here in the house like rocks and he collects gems and I have a lot of essential oils.

31:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think he'll really enjoy making his own little bag and we can talk about how we can use that because I think we all need a little bit of the skip protocol. [SPEAKER_01]: When really do, we have to learn how to nurture ourselves. [SPEAKER_01]: Especially my generation, we just didn't come from parents that were so well-versed with therapy or understanding emotional connection or that security catchment.

31:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I've always said, wow, I'm going to be to totally better mom if I had Google, right? [SPEAKER_01]: All the resources we have now, it's so wonderful. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're really learning. [SPEAKER_01]: I think our society is embracing for both men and women. [SPEAKER_01]: Embrace your emotional regulation, nurture yourself, take care of you, and I don't think we ever really talk that for a lot of generations.

32:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, I think it's wonderful to teach your son. [SPEAKER_01]: I've taught my grandson it. [SPEAKER_01]: I've given my whole family bans and we all went over it, you know, but you know, kids love it. [SPEAKER_01]: They do. [SPEAKER_01]: That's something to do and they feel confident that they were able to calm themselves down.

32:35 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's great. [SPEAKER_02]: These skills are essential and we are brought up without knowing what to do when we become angry. [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, something that's so sad, especially for people with complex trauma, is that anger is taught to be something that you literally are not allowed to express.

32:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Therefore that's why people think, how do you, what do you mean there's healthy anger? [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't make any sense. [SPEAKER_02]: All anger is bad. [SPEAKER_02]: So teaching somebody who has been told that you can't express anger. [SPEAKER_02]: who now embodies anger because when you can't express it, where does it go?

33:08 [SPEAKER_02]: It stays in the body, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And then you don't give them tools to learn how to express it. [SPEAKER_02]: It's really a recipe for disaster. [SPEAKER_02]: And I would say particularly in relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you make such a good point. [SPEAKER_01]: In the calming model, the management phase, which is the M, is where you do that deeper trauma work.

33:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where you really dig into the deeper anger work. [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to take a look at your childhood. [SPEAKER_01]: What were you taught about anger? [SPEAKER_01]: What was the message sent? [SPEAKER_01]: What happened when you were angry? [SPEAKER_01]: So we bring all of that into adulthood, then we meet somebody else who has their own ideas about what anger should be or shouldn't be.

33:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And oftentimes that is a lot of conflict and causes a lot of emotional distance with couples. [SPEAKER_01]: And then when you're traumatized, your anger is on steroids, whether it is abrasive or whether it is you're repressing it, if it's aggressive. [SPEAKER_01]: And so when I [SPEAKER_01]: It is absolutely okay to honor your anger, but we want to say I'm really angry about this and we need to talk about it instead of coming in full force with you know the kitchen knives.

34:22 [SPEAKER_02]: Chris, so one of the things that I really loved that you said was that one of your chapters in this book is devoted specifically to all the reasons why there are so many reasons to be angry. [SPEAKER_02]: And I imagine that you and I actually have seen a lot of the same things. [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm wondering in your experience, what are the universal responses that you have heard sort of over and over the main reasons that you hear that partners are so angry after they find out that they have been betrayed?

34:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's so many, but let me just say this, 95% of serving respondents still betrayal is an injustice. [SPEAKER_01]: And the quote is anger is my response to injustice. [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many things that are an injustice because when you are being betrayed, you are being abused.

35:07 [SPEAKER_01]: There is broken relational attachment. [SPEAKER_01]: You are having things happen to you that you're not consenting for. [SPEAKER_01]: You are being deceived. [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many things happening and you're just not even aware of it. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's such an injustice that you're living this life with your partner and they're living a completely different life.

35:28 [SPEAKER_01]: and so after I think just the injustice of it and I'll just read a couple of them. [SPEAKER_01]: So I have it broken out for the past, the present, and the future. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll read a couple that came from the survey and just from treating partners. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just read a couple for each one.

35:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So making a decision to commit to a relationship with someone who is deceiving you about their past and current behaviors or lifestyle, how many times do we see people? [SPEAKER_01]: These people will be trying us when we met them. [SPEAKER_01]: So we were deceived. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, my decision to enter a relationship with you was made based on false information.

36:07 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I was dupped. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Being loved, bombed. [SPEAKER_01]: Right when you look back now, it wasn't real connection and honesty. [SPEAKER_01]: It was covering up for what they were doing. [SPEAKER_01]: Broken wedding bells, broken promises, being manipulated and doing things with and for the betrayer for the benefit of the betrayer was no regard for their well-being.

36:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Being lied to and deceived repeatedly, wonderful memories becoming painful once due to the betrayers' deception, and betrayal during the time the memory was created. [SPEAKER_01]: This is a huge one. [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like your whole life was a lie. [SPEAKER_01]: You look back at these pictures and now you know what they were doing during that time.

36:46 [SPEAKER_01]: sexual experiences, lacking connection and intimacy, getting an STI or an STD and that's just simply the difference of an infection or a disease. [SPEAKER_01]: I've had several partners that their discovery was their gynecologist telling them they have a sexually transmitted disease. [SPEAKER_01]: And that was how they discovered time wasted in a relationship, the physical, emotional, verbal, financial, and sexual abuse incidents.

37:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I did a professional webinar for clinicians with AppSets and I really talked about how much [SPEAKER_01]: sexual abuse is taking place in a relationship where there's betrayal happening. [SPEAKER_01]: There's intimate rape taking place, you're being coerced, things, you're being deceived about certain things.

37:31 [SPEAKER_01]: That's very important. [SPEAKER_01]: The collective your emotional needs, feeling left out of experiences with your betrayer, you know, having to be in a community with the affair partners, having to live there. [SPEAKER_01]: That takes a while to accept. [SPEAKER_01]: This is part of my story.

37:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not my whole story but for a little while it feels like it's my whole life. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you will heal and it becomes a part of your story. [SPEAKER_01]: But in the present, the betray partner said, being angry about being angry. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just so angry that I'm angry all the time, right?

38:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: The constant trauma and anger triggers, the triggers are just awful, questioning why God would allow this to happen to me, makes me angry, fears of the unknown and the known, angry that I still love you, angry that I feel like I hate you. [SPEAKER_01]: right, feeling not a control makes you feel angry.

38:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Your betrayer being quiet or withdrawing, let me just go down through cover of these the post-traumatic stress symptoms anger is one of them that's very significant there. [SPEAKER_01]: Realizing my betrayer was talking about me negatively with others. [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big anger. [SPEAKER_01]: When your partner is sharing parts of your life or talking about you or your children, that makes you so angry.

38:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Having to keep secrets, loss of my sense of self, extreme sadness, not being able to feel safe. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a long list of questioning, who argue, questioning how could you make me angry? [SPEAKER_01]: How could you? [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's so many things legal consequences, financial consequences, all of these things, feeling judged by others.

39:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I have so many people that will come into me and they'll say to me, [SPEAKER_01]: I judged my girlfriend when she stayed with her husband. [SPEAKER_01]: After he betrayed her, I feel like I'm betraying myself by staying with him. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the one that said, I would never stay if I betrayed.

39:25 [SPEAKER_01]: I told him if you ever betray me, that's the one thing that I couldn't take and now I'm staying. [SPEAKER_01]: And what I explained to people is you should be angry about all that, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But you don't ever have to regret giving somebody an opportunity to get help. [SPEAKER_01]: You don't ever have to regret loving somebody that's hurt you.

39:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, they don't get help and they continue to hurt you. [SPEAKER_01]: You were having a different conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: But you don't have to regret that. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's complex. [SPEAKER_01]: And most people don't understand it until they're sitting in that seat. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

39:56 [SPEAKER_01]: They realize it's complex. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not that easy to just leave. [SPEAKER_01]: But in the future, you know, a lot of it is around fear of the unknown, anniversary dates of weddings and special days, questioning the ability to trust my own intuition, and I have a chapter on intuition and really learning how to trust yourself again because your intuition is destroyed, lost hopes and dreams, never being able to say my partner has always been faithful to me.

40:22 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a hard one. [SPEAKER_01]: the aftermath of divorce brings a lot of anger. [SPEAKER_01]: The entering the new relationship with someone else and feeling damaged and that shame that comes with it. [SPEAKER_01]: And then anger that my future has to be different than I envisioned it to be.

40:37 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for letting me share that. [SPEAKER_01]: Then there's just some and there's a lot more in there but so many reasons that bring up anger. [SPEAKER_02]: So for anyone who's ever questioned why is it the trade partner so angry? [SPEAKER_02]: I encourage you to really listen to that [SPEAKER_02]: And I would say that's a small list, right?

40:56 [SPEAKER_02]: The list can go on. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was just thinking how much anger I have felt in my life at times when I was grieving, going into, you know, those like a CVS or target, and they have all the greeting card section, and I come from a family that sends greeting cards. [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's sort of like, um, it's not really happening all that much anymore in our world, but we still do that.

41:18 [SPEAKER_02]: And when I was grieving a loss of my mother, I remember walking into those stores, [SPEAKER_02]: became like even right now. [SPEAKER_02]: I can even feel it. [SPEAKER_02]: This anger of I will never be able to send my mother a card again. [SPEAKER_02]: I could never go and now look at those cards and stand there and find one for her and know how she's going to react when I give it to her.

41:37 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I've had clients say to me I've had betrayed partners say that they get really angry on birthdays or anniversaries when they go in. [SPEAKER_01]: to get a card and they'll have a real like it they'll say I had a fit standing there because none of those cards felt okay I could never give my husband these cards that I wanted to give him because they're not true they're not true it's so true they'll stand there and this one isn't fitting and this one isn't fitting and you know it's so hard we're before your whole heart felt such love in connection with them and you could pick out these beautiful cards in the past it's just one more [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the amount of loss is just tremendous.

42:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And the last phase of my model is grief. [SPEAKER_01]: I believe that grief starts at the time of discovery and I think it goes on forever. [SPEAKER_01]: I think we learn to live with life experienced grief to some degree. [SPEAKER_01]: So you're right, there's so many losses. [SPEAKER_02]: The losses are, yeah, they can feel instrumental.

42:34 [SPEAKER_02]: and I think they often do and you know I was just thinking even walking into one of those places and it doesn't have to be a card store. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just thinking for so many betrayed partners walking into let's say a romantic restaurant or walking in somewhere where maybe you once had some really great memories and now you remember that you were sitting there when you found out a particular thing or [SPEAKER_02]: And the anger and the grief being able to get activated in an instant because of all these external triggers.

43:04 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's another thing to be aware of, is that our anger can often be directly associated with what our visual cues are. [SPEAKER_02]: And we live in a world where we are triggered very easily and often by visual stimuli that's in front of us. [SPEAKER_01]: You're so right, every person has been traumatized, we're talking about betrayal trauma, but every person has been traumatized, gets triggers.

43:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And triggers are just simply those things that remind you of what hurt you. [SPEAKER_01]: It could be a smell, it could be a name, it could be a place like you said. [SPEAKER_01]: and I do talk about that in the book. [SPEAKER_01]: I give resources and skills to help you manage those triggers and you're right that anger can come up before you know it.

43:47 [SPEAKER_01]: You can go from I people say I go from zero to a hundred that quick. [SPEAKER_01]: So what I say is it's okay but as soon as you get to a hundred as soon as you're recognizing it, go do the skip protocol. [SPEAKER_01]: go as immediately. [SPEAKER_01]: If you're in the middle of yelling and screaming, that's okay.

44:02 [SPEAKER_01]: As soon as you realize it, I'm not okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Go do that, get protocol. [SPEAKER_01]: And the more that you do it, and you understand how you can nurture and calm yourself and then communicate your anger assertively, it gets easier. [SPEAKER_01]: You just have to give yourself grace about that.

44:19 [SPEAKER_02]: Crystal, I am so grateful again that you wrote this book. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like as we've been talking, I'm just like even paying attention to what's going on in my body. [SPEAKER_02]: I've been having a lot of really interesting sensations as we've been talking, and I think ultimately I feel a great amount of relief.

44:36 [SPEAKER_02]: This part of it, when you talk about betrayal, pain makes a lot of sense, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Of course there's pain and trauma. [SPEAKER_02]: There's so much sadness. [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that anger can be sort of that, oh, we don't want to talk about that. [SPEAKER_02]: And if we look at it that way, then we're missing out on an opportunity to really acknowledge, and treat, and heal a part of ourselves that is a normal and expected reaction to let's use that word in justice.

45:04 [SPEAKER_02]: just feel relieved that there's this sort of this thing you can pick up and putting your hands and that it's speaking to what we're talking about. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm hoping that this literally can change people's perception even of how they look at anger as it relates to betrayal. [SPEAKER_02]: I really think that this has the opportunity to truly change how people view anger.

45:25 [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that I really hope that that's the case. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you because that is my hope. [SPEAKER_01]: And the point you're making is like one of the most important points to me, Morty, is that what people have to understand is that a betrayed partner is going to be angry and they're not going to behave like their normal self.

45:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say 92% of survey participants said I'm behaving ways that I never did before. [SPEAKER_01]: 85% said the anger they're experiencing after betrayal is more intense than in any anger they ever experienced in their life. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to behave like your normal self.

46:02 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to do things and say things that you would never do and say that you've never done before. [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think your point is so true, understanding that, yes, when they're doing all that, that's normal, that's normal for behavior for betrayal trauma anger. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, just like grief is normal, right?

46:24 [SPEAKER_02]: Grief is a natural and expected response to loss, and as we've talked about today, there are so many losses, and just like grief is natural and expected anger is natural and expected, and if we can maybe reframe how we look at anger, [SPEAKER_02]: It might really change things. [SPEAKER_02]: If the betrayers able to recognize my partner is hurting, even though they're angry, I'm gonna respond to them because I know that underneath the anger is a lot of pain.

46:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And there is a lot of injustice. [SPEAKER_02]: And that's expected, that's not an unusual reaction. [SPEAKER_02]: Then I'm gonna be able to show up for my partner and actually help my partner heal instead of hurt them or harm them more than I already have. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is a great opportunity, I hope that people are listening, learning about something new is always an opportunity for growth.

47:18 [SPEAKER_02]: It's always an opportunity to do something differently. [SPEAKER_02]: Try something new and see what happens. [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think shining the light on anger and making it not this awful bad thing. [SPEAKER_02]: And let's help people express their anger in appropriate ways and validate their anger.

47:38 [SPEAKER_02]: would consistently reassure their partner that their anger makes sense, that yes, you've experienced an enormous injustice and being angry makes sense. [SPEAKER_02]: You know when you're driving on the freeway and someone like cuts you off, they do something that's completely, it's not like good driving, right?

47:55 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not good driving, etiquette, all of that, and you get so angry, because it feels like something was done to you. [SPEAKER_02]: But when that driver who cuts you off looks at you like makes eye contact and they do that wave you know like oh I'm sorry that they're acknowledging that they did something and they didn't mean to and they're apologizing [SPEAKER_02]: Often our nervous system immediately comes down to go no problem.

48:18 [SPEAKER_02]: No problem. [SPEAKER_02]: Go, you know, if it's fine. [SPEAKER_02]: Because when we feel that there's an injustice, we want to be validated, right? [SPEAKER_02]: We do not want there to be an injustice. [SPEAKER_02]: Do you ever have that experience, by the way, with the driving? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.

48:31 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm certified in anger management therapy. [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the most common issues is that road rage, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And you're so true when somebody just says, I hurt you. [SPEAKER_01]: just acknowledging that I'm so sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure I've done it before.

48:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry. [SPEAKER_01]: I pulled out front of you or you know, thank you or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it just does so much for us. [SPEAKER_01]: We just need to know that you see us, you care, you understand that you heard us, and that's so important for the betrayed partner. [SPEAKER_01]: And something that came out of the book that I've been surprised about, I've had a lot of therapists tell me that they're using my book for groups.

49:04 [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm having a lot of betrayers give feedback that it's helping them to have empathy, that reading it is really helping them to see and empathy. [SPEAKER_01]: And I've had several therapists telling me, wow, this book is really helping the betrayer with their empathy. [SPEAKER_01]: And although, I guess I should have thought about that.

49:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I never thought about that being something positive coming. [SPEAKER_01]: but I think like you said, understanding it, accepting it, understanding your role, it just helps the couple to heal. [SPEAKER_02]: I do a couple's group and I'm actually thinking that this could be a really wonderful tool to bring in and have the couples do together to work on the anger piece.

49:43 [SPEAKER_02]: I think this would be really, really powerful. [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm certainly going to order my copy immediately. [SPEAKER_02]: Where can people get the book? [SPEAKER_01]: It's like Amazon and that's the only place that it is, so it's easy to find and it's the trail trauma anger.

49:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, the whole title is you're not crazy. [SPEAKER_01]: You're angry and you should be. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just so thankful for what you're doing. [SPEAKER_01]: I have all my clients come to your podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: You're really helping the couple and I do think that anger [SPEAKER_01]: like I said, I think there was a missing resource for this.

50:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of the missing link that such a significant part of the healing process for both. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think both can learn how to be angry and to really work through it and it even helps you to co-requilate as a couple. [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, it's so hard for the betrayer because they want to shut down and they don't want to hurt their partner.

50:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But you have to understand when their hurt regardless of what the cause is, you have to lean in a be there. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, the partner has to be able to process that anger to get their needs met. [SPEAKER_01]: So... [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and if the betrayer could not be defensive about that, and really own that, yes, you should be angry instead of getting angry and upset about the partner being angry.

50:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, that would just be a game changer. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I usually will ask the betrayer, would you be angry if she betrayed you, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great question to ask. [SPEAKER_02]: So I am going to put the link to the book in our show notes, and then Crystal, if people want to find you, where can they find you, is there a website, an email address you'd like to leave?

51:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's just my name, CrystalHallandBet.com. [SPEAKER_01]: And my phone number is all there, my email, and so you can contact me if I can be a help in any way. [SPEAKER_02]: Before we say goodbye, is there sort of a last words of wisdom that you'd like to leave something that you feel like if people are going to just take one thing out of this conversation, what you'd like it to be?

51:38 [SPEAKER_02]: I would just say, be angry, but don't hurt yourself or somebody else when you are. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I love that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I did owe to that. [SPEAKER_02]: Crystal, thank you for being here. [SPEAKER_02]: I loved having you here. [SPEAKER_02]: I really did. [SPEAKER_02]: I could have talked about this for another hour or two or three.

51:53 [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you for the work you're doing too. [SPEAKER_02]: It's really wonderful. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's going to help a lot of people. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you, Mourney. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_01]: Then look at the book and let me know where I can leave a review.

52:05 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: You can leave it on Amazon. [SPEAKER_02]: That would be very helpful. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and I encourage all of my listeners to do that, too. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you. [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody go out and get that book. [SPEAKER_02]: Betrayal trauma anger.

52:16 [SPEAKER_02]: Dr. [SPEAKER_02]: Crystal will help him back. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being with us today. [SPEAKER_02]: Really appreciate it. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Mourney. [SPEAKER_02]: All right, everybody. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening. [SPEAKER_02]: I will see you again soon in the meanwhile.

52:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Take good care. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

52:49 [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

53:09 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.