98. The Long Road Back: One Couple's Journey Through Betrayal

0:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, a place for healing and hope for couples impacted by betrayal, resulting from infidelity and or sex addiction. [SPEAKER_00]: Your host is Marnie Breaker, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex addiction therapist, and founder of the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles and San Diego, California.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: The helping couple's heel podcast was launched in 2021, with the intention of bringing hope to couples all over the world, who are desperately trying to recover from the devastating impact of betrayal. [SPEAKER_00]: Realizing how many people the podcast was reaching, and that we could offer even more support to our listeners.

0:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Marni Co-founded Helping Couples Hule, which has since grown into a global online coaching organization. [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is a foundation of all the work that we do at Helping Couples Hule. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening. [SPEAKER_00]: Marni brings over a decade of experience and expertise in the field of betrayal trauma and is honored to support you wherever you may be in your healing.

1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've lost hope, you've come to the right place. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they could slow deep breath and let's begin with the helping couples here podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Helping Couples Seal Podcast. [SPEAKER_03]: This is Marty, and if you have been listening for a while, I hope that you know that this podcast is not about me, I definitely get enough of me.

1:36 [SPEAKER_03]: This is about you, my listeners. [SPEAKER_03]: You matter deeply to me and my goal has always been and continues to be to talk about what you most want and need to hear and to offer you resources consistently that bring real hope and to speak directly to the questions that keep you up at night and probably even drive you a little bit crazy during the day.

2:00 [SPEAKER_03]: So one of the most common requests I hear from listeners is for what people often call success stories. [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll be honest, I really struggle a bit with that term because it can create pressure and imply that everything has to be perfect. [SPEAKER_03]: And we all know that no relationship and no healing journey is ever perfect or linear.

2:19 [SPEAKER_03]: But I do understand what you're really asking. [SPEAKER_03]: You're asking to people and to couples truly ever get to the other side of this. [SPEAKER_03]: Do they ever reach a place where life is in completely consumed by recovery, by meetings, therapy, groups, coaching, workshops, podcasts, books.

2:36 [SPEAKER_03]: And the answer is a resounding yes. [SPEAKER_03]: And it makes sense that there's a deep longing from people who are in it now, [SPEAKER_03]: to hear from couples who are living me on crisis, who are actually healing and growing and continuing to build meaningful lives and deeply. [SPEAKER_03]: intimate and connected relationships.

2:57 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is exactly what I am sharing with you today. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm incredibly grateful to welcome Scott and Laura and before I officially introduce them, I'd like to preface this conversation by saying that their story isn't finished because they've reached some kind of final destination.

3:13 [SPEAKER_03]: Healing from betrayal as I just said a moment ago is not linear and it's never easy. [SPEAKER_03]: Their story continues to be lived and rewritten just like all of ours. [SPEAKER_03]: I am so thankful for their willingness to share their journey with all of us, and I know it will offer hope and inspiration to so many of you who need it right now.

3:34 [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome Scott and Laura. [SPEAKER_03]: I think that you would both say that where you are today, you did not see a clear path towards even just a couple of years ago, so I'm very excited to have you here to show your story. [SPEAKER_03]: Can you start by sharing first where you live and then why you said yes when I invited you to join me on this podcast.

3:53 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, Marnie. [SPEAKER_02]: We are in a Hampshire. [SPEAKER_02]: We're in Mount Lee, Lake's region. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll speak for me. [SPEAKER_02]: Why was I part of the yes? [SPEAKER_02]: I think for exactly as you said, couples are always looking for hope. [SPEAKER_02]: And while there's so much information out there and books and podcasts and these stories, not that we're unique, but these stories, we don't hear them as much.

4:18 [SPEAKER_02]: So if we can offer any hope or some resonance, [SPEAKER_02]: It's just validation and resonance how people are feeling. [SPEAKER_02]: That was why I said yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you for saying yes. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And thanks again, Marny, for having us. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, my ass is a little bit different.

4:37 [SPEAKER_01]: My ass comes straight from my wife who I saw in her years of pain, years of challenges and struggle. [SPEAKER_01]: And my hope is that through our sharing, [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe he people can heal a little bit sooner. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they can learn something that clicks. [SPEAKER_01]: And if it can be three months less or six months less or a year less, boy, that is so much value for them.

5:14 [SPEAKER_03]: So maybe we'll start there. [SPEAKER_03]: Is there one thing that you guys can think of that you tried or that you did, or that you didn't do? [SPEAKER_03]: That looking back now, you'd think, well, if that was different, maybe it would've sped things up a little bit, maybe it would've helped.

5:29 [SPEAKER_03]: Is there anything that comes to mind? [SPEAKER_02]: If we just actually talked about this earlier tonight, because, you know, there's a lot of years from, so I know that Marnie said, I could say this, we could say this that we've been working with you since probably April of 2019 or something like that somewhere around that time frame.

5:48 [SPEAKER_02]: And if there's a long time like to sort of encapsulate what's happened. [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, you know, so always we're talking about boundaries for partners and healing and I thought, you know, I think I had some really good boundaries and I also think I didn't have enough. [SPEAKER_02]: I think I tolerated more than probably I should have or could have and perhaps if my boundaries at times were not stronger than who knows.

6:18 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we don't know the outcome because we don't know it didn't happen that way. [SPEAKER_02]: So while I think I had some very good boundaries, I think at times I didn't my template and my family of words and was I could tolerate a lot my mom tolerated a lot so I knew how to do that so I think what might have been really helpful for me would be I have been stronger boundaries.

6:39 [SPEAKER_03]: Is there something that you remember specifically that looking back you realize that's a boundary that should have been established or I should have used my voice on this particular area. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think in during long conversations and I'll let Scott speak to what we were speaking of earlier, but again, surrounded this when he was in a certain mindset that was really fixated and he really had a belief about something and instead of walking away, you know, we just get tired out and so I think I probably better boundaries around ending conversations when we were dysregulated.

7:17 [SPEAKER_02]: I fully support that if you know, I'm sure you got it us on that too. [SPEAKER_03]: What about you Scott anything that comes to mind for you? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if there's one thing I could have changed, it would have been to accept the notion, maybe this is all my fault. [SPEAKER_01]: And what Laura and I were talking about coming into this, there's a word that means a lot to me and it was a struggle that I had and that word is righteous.

7:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I [SPEAKER_01]: felt so righteous about the way I was feeling. [SPEAKER_01]: And as you know, Marnie, I have abandonment wounds, which would show up. [SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to be tended to. [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted my wife to see me. [SPEAKER_01]: And what I know now, that was stealing her space.

8:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It was stealing her healing space. [SPEAKER_01]: And I would feel righteous about [SPEAKER_01]: or I would feel righteous about what is her role in this healing or being upset about the imbalance in our relationship and had I just let my guard down like maybe this is all my fault and let me figure out what's going on for me.

8:41 [SPEAKER_01]: That would have sped up our process by years. [SPEAKER_03]: especially when you have abandonment wounds, right? [SPEAKER_03]: I imagine that you're able to sit here today and say what you're saying now, not because it came to you with the flick of a switch, but because of a lot of time and energy spent on healing and learning about yourself.

9:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure. [SPEAKER_01]: It certainly doesn't come naturally because you're fighting against whatever that pain is that's going on inside and it seems like that your attachment partner should be helping you with that. [SPEAKER_01]: And what I know now is I need to help myself with that.

9:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it's a beautiful lesson and also a painful one and I know Laura for you that would likely have been incredibly painful to be in the throws of the trail trauma and you wanting your partner to tend to you and to nurture you and to give you the space for the healing and that when there's a big abandonment wound and the other person feels like they need the attention right the nurturing the space for someone who's dealing with the trail trauma that could feel like another betrayal.

9:56 [SPEAKER_02]: And it was another betrayal, you know, and I know this is common. [SPEAKER_02]: So this isn't anything unique to me, the sexual infidelity, that betrayal for sure. [SPEAKER_02]: That was painful and a lot to work through. [SPEAKER_02]: But the biggest wounding in our relationship was what occurred after discovery.

10:15 [SPEAKER_02]: Lack of emotional sobriety was the biggest wounding. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, there were times where I just say, you know, I can't help you. [SPEAKER_02]: This is not my job. [SPEAKER_02]: This is a huge job. [SPEAKER_02]: This is not a meat job. [SPEAKER_01]: That was probably the thing that helped me most.

10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: It really was. [SPEAKER_01]: It took a long time, longer than it should have, but that constant chatter from Laura of this is not mine to own. [SPEAKER_01]: This is yours, or the behaviors that I was exhibiting. [SPEAKER_01]: This is not okay with me. [SPEAKER_01]: It didn't feel good at the time, but it did puncture the protections that I had ultimately.

10:56 [SPEAKER_03]: So let's take a breath and then move back in time a little bit. [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go back to let's say a week or so prior to discovery for the two of you. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you thought about that in a while but just thinking about sort of where were you as individuals as a couple as a family at that time and what was the moment of discovery and then we'll obviously move into what happened after that.

11:25 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was in Europe, so a week before discovery, I was in Europe and I missed Scott's birthday while it was over there and so I came home and I made him a birthday dinner to which I brought my parents were there and his parents came it was the six of us and that day he's out doing something.

11:47 [SPEAKER_02]: And as I was busy making dinner, he left his iPad in the kitchen and as things come up, it was a conversation between he and another woman and I was like, okay, here we go. [SPEAKER_02]: There we go. [SPEAKER_02]: So we have dinner and when everybody left, I shared with him what I learned that day.

12:10 [SPEAKER_03]: I just want to say that, but you're describing, I imagine is something that will land and resonate so strongly with so many people listening, both betrayed partners and those with betrayed. [SPEAKER_03]: because how many times is it required to pretend everything's okay in order to manage the other people and keep the peace and have to show up for things because you're adults, right?

12:33 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what adults do while you're holding so much pain and in that situation so much uncertainty. [SPEAKER_03]: And I can't imagine for you, Laura, what that dinner was like before you had the chance to talk with Scott about what you had seen on the iPad. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, honestly, I don't even.

12:50 [SPEAKER_02]: I just remember just getting through it. [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even remember when I was feeling it was probably wine and vomit. [SPEAKER_02]: This was the only way I was going to get through it. [SPEAKER_03]: So how did it go when you brought it up to Scott horribly? [SPEAKER_03]: What does that look like?

13:03 [SPEAKER_02]: He denied it. [SPEAKER_02]: He said it was all her and I don't remember if it was that afternoon or that very next day I called her and they said this is who I am and this is what I saw and she said he pursued me to do do do do do do do and so I said to him I said look at you need to stop because I was spoken to her.

13:23 [SPEAKER_02]: And I had also asked her to share with me some texts that went back and forth. [SPEAKER_02]: So I said, I have the information. [SPEAKER_02]: So this is not accurate what you're saying. [SPEAKER_03]: So Scott, let's turn over to you for a moment. [SPEAKER_03]: Do you remember what that was like for you when Laura made it clear that she knew what was going on?

13:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Holy cow, the level of this association compartmentalization. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember that there was a dinner. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember that Laura was in Europe. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. [SPEAKER_01]: Boy, I want to share what was going on for me and I find myself not wanting to minimize Laura's experience.

14:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember feeling shell shocked, really like world stopping, which I'm assuming is the same experience that Laura had. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it was, Marty. [SPEAKER_01]: I really don't. [SPEAKER_01]: It just felt like everything stopped. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, you were exposed.

14:20 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, something that I hear from so many of the triars is there were things that were discovered that I was committed to taking to my grave. [SPEAKER_03]: There was no way that those things were gonna ever become a part of my reality, my partner's reality, my family's reality. [SPEAKER_03]: And so when there's that exposure, it can be absolutely like you said, just shocking and an experience of like checking out leaving your body and not remember.

14:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's that part of me that I never wanted the world to know. [SPEAKER_01]: I worked really hard to have an image which was very different than this. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think I let myself know who that other side of me was, let alone Laura knowing everything about him. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I wanted to acknowledge what you said when I asked you what your experience was like, and you said you wanted to share, but you also didn't want to minimize Laura's experience.

15:14 [SPEAKER_03]: And what I want to assure you is that by you sharing your experience in no way does that take away or minimize Laura's experience, her experience is just as important, just as meaningful, [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think that's something that happens with betrayal trauma and it's sort of like a natural part of this whole process is usually the betrayer is caught just like in this case.

15:39 [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's this, maybe a belief like, okay, well, now he's been caught or she's been caught and now they lose all their rights. [SPEAKER_03]: and they never get to have a say again and they're going to be in the doghouse forever and now the partner can just do, we need to set whatever boundary and ask for anything they want, it can be reasonable, unreasonable, it doesn't matter.

16:01 [SPEAKER_03]: And that the betrayers' feelings don't matter, it doesn't matter if you feel horrible, it doesn't matter if you're hurting because look at what you've done. [SPEAKER_03]: And while I understand that, and I can understand that in the actual moment of betrayal, I get why they might feel that way.

16:16 [SPEAKER_03]: And why their loved ones might also support that idea. [SPEAKER_03]: But the truth is, when we're talking about human beings and we're talking about couples and my God, I have worked with and continue to work with tons of couples who are going through this, you've got two really hurting human beings.

16:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And we can't say one is not important, or one doesn't matter compared to the other. [SPEAKER_03]: But I say that it's very tricky because I also talk and Scott, you know this because I know we've had this conversation about triage, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Like in terms of how we approach the couple.

16:48 [SPEAKER_03]: who are hurting. [SPEAKER_03]: How do we give our attention? [SPEAKER_03]: Where do we give our attention? [SPEAKER_03]: You know, what does treatment look like? [SPEAKER_03]: What do we do first? [SPEAKER_03]: And oftentimes when it comes to couples that are dealing with betrayal, the triage has to go to the person who's really hemorrhaging the most and that would be the betrayed partner.

17:04 [SPEAKER_03]: I will say and you could definitely speak more to this for you as you said the abandonment wound. [SPEAKER_03]: I think made it that much more complex [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it is complex, and I think it's complex for a lot of the betrayers. [SPEAKER_01]: They may not have the same abandonment wounds, but I think a large majority of them are dealing with some belief systems that they're not enough.

17:34 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't matter. [SPEAKER_01]: Unlovable, all those sorts of pieces. [SPEAKER_01]: and now their deepest fear is coming to light, and boy, I was so lucky that I feel like I had the world's most balanced betrayed partner that ever existed, and it's still the shame of having done this to your partner.

17:58 [SPEAKER_01]: no matter how balanced you or Laura tried to make this whole thing. [SPEAKER_01]: To me, it felt like I was in the doghouse. [SPEAKER_01]: It felt like my feelings didn't matter. [SPEAKER_01]: It felt all those things. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay. [SPEAKER_01]: That's for me to figure out.

18:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And what I didn't do, [SPEAKER_01]: was help myself figure out what was going on for me. [SPEAKER_01]: And I kept needing Laura to make me feel better or the rest of the world to esteem me. [SPEAKER_01]: I needed to figure it out myself. [SPEAKER_03]: And then God, you didn't give up and you did.

18:31 [SPEAKER_03]: You put in the work to figure it out. [SPEAKER_03]: But before we get to that part, which I think is really important, let's come back to Laura and can you share with us what happened after you confronted Scott with the fact that you had spoken to this woman and that she had shared these texts with you and you knew the truth.

18:50 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought because there had been issues with pornography before this message that I intercepted, there was a lot going on in his department in that way and so it was like, okay, finally, now it's time. [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get help and things are finally going to get moving here.

19:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I was a little naive, you know, because I hadn't done any betrayal from a training prior to this. [SPEAKER_02]: I was a relationship coach, so I had some good foundation, but certainly not anything in depth in this arena. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think I just thought, okay, well, he'll be sober and we'll be better.

19:29 [SPEAKER_02]: No, that's not exactly what happened. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think I was, I spent probably about six months in some pretty significant, I don't know if I call it denial, just naivety, not really understanding the complexity of the recovery process for him. [SPEAKER_02]: And certainly not knowing because the Scott that I knew, when I say Scott didn't know he had an abandonment wound, I want to say he didn't know he didn't know until he stopped the behaviors that then allowed everything to bubble up that he was meditating.

20:06 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I didn't know. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, who is this person? [SPEAKER_02]: This is not the guy I married. [SPEAKER_02]: Who is this guy? [SPEAKER_02]: So that was a really big, um, that was a very hard, very gentle guy, soft guy, you know, and then there were these parts of him that I had just never seen before.

20:29 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, whoa, what is happening here? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I had a jump in because there's words that need to be said. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know that I had ever really experienced angry. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you being angry or experiencing anger from your partner. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, me being angry.

20:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that I'd really experience that. [SPEAKER_01]: I experienced months of sobbing. [SPEAKER_01]: I, in the way I treated Laura, [SPEAKER_01]: The behaviors were so outside my value system and unfair to her. [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, she'd never experienced this before and I had never experienced these emotions that felt like they were all of me now.

21:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I want to say nobody listening can see the two of you. [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, I have the kind of a language I've seen you on Zoom. [SPEAKER_03]: And I would like to have you describe how you're actually sitting together. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, as you're talking about this, can you share what I'm seeing?

21:33 [SPEAKER_02]: We're sitting side by side, shoulder to shoulder, and Scott's hand is on my right knee, and my left arm is on his arm. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we're very... [SPEAKER_02]: Of course. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And I saw when Scott mentioned abandonment or mentioned A actually can't remember exactly what he said, but it was something that I think took some humility and might have been a little painful and I saw immediately Laurie you took your hand and you put it on his chest very much the two of you in tune with each other.

22:02 [SPEAKER_03]: I also want to say this did not happen. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, this did not happen right away, this did not happen at the time that you guys are talking about at this stage of the story. [SPEAKER_03]: But I do want people to know because you're sharing about the progression of something right over a long period of time and.

22:20 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, like you said earlier, Laura, people need hope, people want hope because when you're in the midst of this, when it just happens and then can be for years afterwards, there can be a feeling of it's never going to get better. [SPEAKER_03]: We are stuck. [SPEAKER_03]: There's still so much pain.

22:32 [SPEAKER_03]: There's still so much hurt. [SPEAKER_03]: We'll let ever be different. [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's why I wanted to sort of stop and reflect and let people know what I'm seeing as you're sharing this really painful story. [SPEAKER_03]: How connected you are and attuned to one another. [SPEAKER_02]: It was a long time that I felt a little nutty.

22:49 [SPEAKER_02]: I know myself to be a really loving, compassionate, empathetic person. [SPEAKER_02]: I have my moments for sure. [SPEAKER_02]: And what Scott was needing for me, I couldn't provide. [SPEAKER_02]: And I also knew if I do this for him, then it's going to prevent him from doing what really needs to be done.

23:09 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was really hard, and at times I question myself, I'm like, am I just a shrewd? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I can see how much he's hurting, and yet I can't do this for him, and it was really hard because he'd be like, can't you see me? [SPEAKER_02]: Can't you see? [SPEAKER_02]: Look, even these books will say that I don't know.

23:30 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, yeah, sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not the right book, or whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it was really hard. [SPEAKER_02]: So how did you get through it? [SPEAKER_02]: Um, well, certainly my upset training helped me immensely, and also I thought about this many times for both my relationship coaching practice before that and through absets, it's a double-edged sort because it's almost like you know too much.

23:55 [SPEAKER_02]: And so I could see what was happening in our relationship, and I'm like, wow, this is just not good. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe some people and I think partners and you try experiences nearly with a hundred percent accuracy partners are voracious researchers and readers and. [SPEAKER_02]: The pain is so great that they will turn over every stone to find something that is going to move us along and feel better and heal.

24:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas betrayers don't, they're going to avoid it and let's just move along and get along. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I realized at some point that this is a long process. [SPEAKER_02]: And I know out there there are some people that say it doesn't need to be a long process and hey man I'm all about it if it's not long for a lot of people that's great I think that's fabulous I have heard that before I don't think I've ever seen it and I'm doing this a really long time.

24:49 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I haven't seen it either, so it's a long time and so through coaching and doing some family words and work of my own and working with them that way was like this development mentally what Scott was going to go through was going to take time. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that knowledge on my part was really helpful to me because it takes time.

25:09 [SPEAKER_02]: So what did that time look like? [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, literally chronologically how long did it take? [SPEAKER_02]: Or how did I manage the time? [SPEAKER_02]: I would say both, okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Every week I left, um, and I went to Massachusetts to work for a couple of days. [SPEAKER_02]: So I would immerse myself in whatever I needed to do for healing.

25:28 [SPEAKER_02]: I would reach out to my inner circle people for it's like I'd go and I'd fortify myself and come back in that last it for a couple of years. [SPEAKER_03]: And Scott when Laura was doing that, what was happening for you, what were you [SPEAKER_01]: Boy, I was trying to do good work and I recognized just as Laura is sharing that how this regulating for me and I kind of wish I could have maybe I didn't say this earlier, there are some things I just couldn't see through because I hadn't gotten there yet and this is one of those pieces where I had this all wrong.

26:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Like all I could see was that Laura was fortifying with people, with new friendships, moving on. [SPEAKER_01]: She's doing fine, she doesn't need me and all of this just fueled my abandonment. [SPEAKER_01]: And I just wish I could see that she was helping herself and I needed to do the same.

26:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It didn't feel that way. [SPEAKER_01]: And I wish I could have seen what I couldn't see then. [SPEAKER_03]: How does that make you feel now as you are talking about it? [SPEAKER_03]: And we know that you do see it today. [SPEAKER_01]: I think embarrassed. [SPEAKER_01]: I always wanted the best for my wife.

26:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I really did. [SPEAKER_01]: And sad that we had to go on for so long because I couldn't take the steps to figure it out. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe shameful that I couldn't see it as being so positive that she was giving her the space [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, uncomfortable. [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't feel good.

27:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted her heart to settle for a really long time. [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't figure out how to do it. [SPEAKER_03]: I hear that you feel embarrassed and sad, and those feelings make a lot of sense, and I also know that, well, something Laura said before about like, she recognized how long it was going to take for you to heal these parts of yourself and to go through that process.

27:31 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I know that that was not coming from a place of not wanting her to heal, right? [SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't about her at all, which was problematic in itself, right? [SPEAKER_03]: I should have been about her. [SPEAKER_03]: Again, it goes back to that where we've been saying complexity.

27:46 [SPEAKER_03]: I really get it. [SPEAKER_03]: I see the pain knowing now what she went through. [SPEAKER_03]: I will say that the feeling of having been a band or the experience of having been abandoned is one that is so painful. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's probably the greatest one we can have. [SPEAKER_03]: It's similar to betrayal because being abandoned by your primary caregiver is the greatest form of betrayal.

28:08 [SPEAKER_03]: You guys are both parents, I'm a parent. [SPEAKER_03]: I think we can agree on the fact that showing up for our child is the most important thing that we can do for them. [SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, you know, you were living with a wound that would get opened up anytime you felt abandoned regardless of the fact that it was what you had done.

28:25 [SPEAKER_03]: At least in this case with Laura, it was what you had done in the choices you had made in your addiction and actions that were creating her setting the boundaries that she was setting and [SPEAKER_03]: fortifying herself in your words with these other relationships and people and all of that, but to you, it was about her abandon you or betraying you.

28:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and the big misstep there, Marnie, is that I blamed Laura for how I was feeling. [SPEAKER_01]: I asked Laura to fix how I was feeling rather than me figuring out how to help myself with whatever I was feeling. [SPEAKER_03]: So Scott, how did you help yourself? [SPEAKER_01]: That's a million dollar question.

29:06 [SPEAKER_03]: I was just thinking truly there are so many different things that I want to talk about because we didn't continue with what happened and how did you guys as a couple survived during that time and what were the challenges and what were you doing to try to heal and then how did you actually get to where you're at now?

29:22 [SPEAKER_03]: What was it that shifted things? [SPEAKER_01]: Um, Laura will tell you big shift for me was when I started doing men's groups, big shift for me was when I made the decision, hey, what's what's different for me? [SPEAKER_01]: How did I end up here? [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, let me pick up a book on abandonment and then realize that it read like a biography.

29:45 [SPEAKER_01]: little things along the way. [SPEAKER_01]: Amago dialogue was enormous for us. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you agree? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it really is. [SPEAKER_02]: We have the wheels on the bus. [SPEAKER_01]: It's slowed our trajectory of these conversations. [SPEAKER_01]: For me, it felt like there was balance.

30:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I could be heard. [SPEAKER_01]: Laura felt like she could be heard. [SPEAKER_01]: It gave some structure around it, which I think helps with your emotional regulation. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, there's a procedure. [SPEAKER_01]: So let's stay in here. [SPEAKER_01]: So we found that really helpful.

30:20 [SPEAKER_01]: We still use it today. [SPEAKER_02]: Our couple couples recovery check-in. [SPEAKER_02]: That was the, I think the one you provided us for any of the RCA, we used that for years. [SPEAKER_03]: And how is it helpful to you? [SPEAKER_03]: What did you guys get from that that you found helpful?

30:34 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we did, we were really committed to once we finally found the day and the time that worked for us because we had to shop around on the calendar a little bit to get something that was consistent. [SPEAKER_02]: It was a really good exercise in boundaries, like listening and speaking, because when Scott would share about whatever was going on for him, it was a window into his world.

30:57 [SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes I didn't like the window. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, well, okay, that's fucked up. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that never, but I couldn't say that, right? [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't say that. [SPEAKER_02]: But I might have felt that like holy cow. [SPEAKER_02]: Is that what that's where we're at?

31:12 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, note to self. [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I really need to adjust my thinking. [SPEAKER_02]: Right? [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a really big window, which I think the check-ins are supposed to be, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Did you look forward to doing the check-ins for the most part? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

31:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Can I answer that one? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I want you to. [SPEAKER_03]: No. [SPEAKER_03]: That's why I asked the question. [SPEAKER_03]: Because... You did. [SPEAKER_04]: You did. [SPEAKER_03]: I set your own. [SPEAKER_03]: No. [SPEAKER_03]: But honestly, I can't tell you how many people I've worked with were that's the case.

31:47 [SPEAKER_03]: Were one person actually dreads doing the check-in. [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes both people dread doing the check-in. [SPEAKER_01]: and that changed over time and I did look forward to it and I think Laura will also one thing that you always shared with me is that when I would come downstairs after doing my men's group and say hey this is something I learned about myself or this is what I'm hoping to try with this feel good to you just letting Laura know what was going on for me.

32:21 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, oh 100% because you know all the acting out happened in a vacuum and when recovery happens in the vacuum like inside the brain we're not privy to all the changes that are happening and so I found it to be really helpful you don't have to share anything personal or specific but like what are you learning about yourself he would come down and he said oh my god i'm changing daily.

32:44 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't even know, like, he came down series one day after doing some 12 stuff work. [SPEAKER_02]: He goes, I went from thinking I had no flaws to like, four pages of what I was looking for. [SPEAKER_03]: That's the beauty of all of this. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I know nobody, including the two of you, would have ever wanted.

33:06 [SPEAKER_03]: any of this, right? [SPEAKER_03]: This level of pain, trauma, all of it, and yet there are gifts that come from it. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's one example really learning about yourself. [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people never even ask themselves that question who ally before the discovery and that exposure and the crisis and trauma that unfolds after discovery.

33:27 [SPEAKER_03]: And then they get to say, oh, this is who I've been. [SPEAKER_03]: What are the parts of me that I don't want to keep, or I don't want this anymore? [SPEAKER_03]: Or what are the parts that were misaligned, or in congruent with who I want to be, or who I thought I was, and really, and I get to create who I'm going to be in this world.

33:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of people don't do that sort of personal inventory. [SPEAKER_03]: when something big hasn't happened in their life that sort of forces that not everybody there are people that just on their own they feel very curious and you know reflective and they want to do that kind of deep dive into themselves but generally speaking something big happens to people that sort of push them into doing this deep work and the gift is you come home to yourself [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think a lot of partners will say, how did you stay?

34:15 [SPEAKER_02]: How did you make the decision? [SPEAKER_02]: And my answer, and I was my answer to stop. [SPEAKER_02]: I believed what I saw in him. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not the worst parts, but the better parts. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, okay, I want to stick around to see what this person is. [SPEAKER_02]: Is he closer to who he was meant to be?

34:37 [SPEAKER_02]: versus this. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I saw enough that I wanted to stick around to see what the recovery looked like. [SPEAKER_03]: Did you ever think that perhaps it wouldn't work? [SPEAKER_03]: Uh-huh, 100%. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and just a couple of years ago, I did a second impact statement remember that morning and that was an absolute game changer for me.

35:02 [SPEAKER_03]: Can you share a little bit about that? [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think again, people want to hold on to tangible or concrete steps things that they can do that might shift things, might get things unstuck, might take away a little bit of the pain. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think what's interesting about our story is that it wasn't all bad.

35:21 [SPEAKER_02]: And there are growth spurts we would have growth spurts and then we wouldn't and then we might go a little bit backwards and then there might be a little growth spurts so it wasn't all doom and gloom for all of this time because I don't think anybody could endure that level of intensity without anything that gives some hope and some reason to be here.

35:41 [SPEAKER_02]: However, there was a continued pattern that kept emerging and one was really becoming very clear. [SPEAKER_02]: Scott had a lot of fear and his fear would arrest him and he would be looking to me like when we would start a conversation. [SPEAKER_02]: I was digging out of a hole that I could not connect with him because I was having to fix something.

36:04 [SPEAKER_02]: I just had no idea it could be from our retirement to you name it. [SPEAKER_02]: It could be about sexual intimacy. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll ever have it again, it didn't matter. [SPEAKER_02]: I was underwater before I even got to the table to have a conversation about anything because I had to bail him out of whatever was going on for him.

36:27 [SPEAKER_02]: And I was losing hope. [SPEAKER_02]: I said in my impact statement, I said, I'm a very hopeful person, but I am no longer hopeful. [SPEAKER_02]: And when I wrote those in that impact statement, it was really important process for me because I let myself go there and really say it instead of just doing daily life.

36:48 [SPEAKER_02]: As important as it was for me to confront that part of me, it was as important [SPEAKER_03]: What was that like for you, Scott, when you heard Lauren say that? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so first of all, let me talk about the behaviors. [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't see it. [SPEAKER_01]: This is another one of these places I couldn't see it.

37:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just reacting to the pain. [SPEAKER_01]: And what was happening all made sense to me? [SPEAKER_01]: Like what I thought Laura should be doing I'll bring up that righteous word again. [SPEAKER_01]: I righteously thought I was in the right place. [SPEAKER_01]: see it. [SPEAKER_01]: Laura's impact letter was really meaningful.

37:34 [SPEAKER_01]: It was the first time that I really needed to swallow the word abuse and that was a really big deal for me and Laura very kindly and I think this is really important. [SPEAKER_01]: She called out your behaviors have been abusive. [SPEAKER_01]: I do not see you as an abusive man. [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember those words and that was super helpful.

37:56 [SPEAKER_01]: It was super helpful and I think being able to tease those things apart is super important. [SPEAKER_02]: The behavior versus the person. [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. [SPEAKER_03]: I want to reiterate just for a quick second so that people out there don't start judging themselves for not having an insight and being able to be so empathic and all of that.

38:15 [SPEAKER_03]: And I just want to again reiterate that Laura is a betrayal trauma coach who before all of this was a relationship coach. [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that was likely helpful because all betrayed partners are not necessarily able to do that, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Like oftentimes what makes up a crisis [SPEAKER_03]: normal coping mechanisms are no longer working.

38:34 [SPEAKER_03]: A person who can normally handle a lot of things, great problem solver, great in the crisis, making good decisions, often just loses the ability. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like their brain goes offline, and that capability has gone. [SPEAKER_03]: So I know in your situation, and Laura, you spoke to this a little bit when you first started sharing a little bit about your history, kind of said right from the beginning, like growing up, you kind of learned how to [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

39:02 [SPEAKER_03]: And that was a gift for you, Scott. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So let's go back to the last question, unless you wanted to say something else about this before we go back. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe this will resonate with some men who are struggling in this work ovary, especially with the band and men.

39:18 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the big struggles we had is that I would [SPEAKER_01]: this is not working and it's pushing her away further. [SPEAKER_01]: I would switch on a dime to begging her to come back and that had to be so painful for you and it is what abandonments about, right? [SPEAKER_01]: It's about that fear gripping you and first the fear you think you can get it by [SPEAKER_01]: I'll use the word by like berating like I deserve this.

39:53 [SPEAKER_01]: You should be with me. [SPEAKER_01]: You should see what pain I'm in and then all of a sudden you realize I'm losing her and now that oh my God, I'm actually losing her now I have to use all the sugar and spice and everything's nice to try to get her back. [SPEAKER_01]: also called love bombing also called web bombing sure so her impact letter i thought i was losing her i had learned enough about love bombing that wasn't going to work out so i knew i needed to dig in a little further and i had heard over the years this is not mine two fix [SPEAKER_01]: So I recognized it was mine to fix and I dug in even deeper and made decision that I got a managed my own fears and what's inside me is no longer going to get projected onto my wife.

40:45 [SPEAKER_03]: And then you gave up a very long-term career and decided to become a betrayal trauma coach for men. [SPEAKER_01]: I did. [UNKNOWN]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I was a pretty major transition, big decision you made. [SPEAKER_01]: It was. [SPEAKER_01]: And Laura had asked me even before that. [SPEAKER_01]: Congratulations, it wasn't perfect, but we had done a lot of healing.

41:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't think I could help men yet. [SPEAKER_01]: And when I felt all those feelings and with coaches and groups and everything else learned to manage those feelings, that's when I knew that I could help other men. [SPEAKER_03]: And I've told you this before, but I am no doubt that you are helping the men that you're working with and I truly believe that the men who get to work with you are very, very lucky for a lot of reasons, but the one that I want to highlight is that you have walked this path and you know.

41:36 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that you're able to relate to most of, if not all of the people that come in to see you. [SPEAKER_03]: And you know what it's like to be in that place and you know what healing requires and asks of you. [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I think people are really blessed. [SPEAKER_03]: And I would say the same for you, Laura, for your clients.

41:53 [SPEAKER_03]: Just because of timing, I feel like people are going to be left still with a lot of questions, but I can't help but wonder if the details are even that important and if the important things, we've managed to get through. [SPEAKER_03]: But one thing that I want to ask you both as we mirror the close of this conversation is how does your relationship look different today than it did?

42:14 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to use the two-year mark because you said, right before you did that impact statement, Laura, how today does your relationship look different? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, first of all, I'll just start with somatically for me. [SPEAKER_02]: My nervous system is so relaxed. [SPEAKER_02]: So there was a long time that I would anticipate, right, because I was pretty predictable in what was happening for him.

42:42 [SPEAKER_02]: And my nervous system was anticipating a lot. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I was really, you know, on all the time. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I learned, and when the real healing started to take place, I would still kind of brace and anticipate, and then I was like, oh, okay, that didn't happen. [SPEAKER_02]: So consistency over time.

43:03 [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel [SPEAKER_02]: this sense of freedom, whereas before I did not feel that, I felt like I was very egg shell walking on egg shells because I really didn't want to elicit anything that didn't need to happen. [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's a big sense of freedom that I have in my body, which also then really equates to me being able to be closer to Scott.

43:27 [SPEAKER_02]: I can actually, like today, you notice that I had my hand on his chest. [SPEAKER_02]: That is something that he desired when he was in so much pain. [SPEAKER_02]: And that is something that I could not do for him. [SPEAKER_02]: But now I can do for him because he's not looking for me to do that for him so that he feels better.

43:46 [SPEAKER_02]: It's me being in support of him versus healing him. [SPEAKER_02]: And so that for me is, I mean, there's a lot of really great things that have happened [SPEAKER_02]: Scott, what did you add to that? [SPEAKER_01]: be much easier to say the things that didn't change everything change and it's funny that Laura said her nervous system because that's exactly what I was going to say.

44:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I bit my nails since I was three years old. [SPEAKER_01]: I worried about money my whole life. [SPEAKER_01]: I worried about being on time. [SPEAKER_01]: I worried about everything. [SPEAKER_01]: Fear and anxiety were ever present in my life. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm calm. [SPEAKER_01]: My nails are normal.

44:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Last year we had paid off our house and we sold it. [SPEAKER_01]: I quit my job and started a new career like jump in the net shall appear. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even notice it. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a big deal, but it was not nerve wracking like everything's changed, Marty. [SPEAKER_01]: Everything has changed.

44:53 [SPEAKER_03]: I find myself feeling really emotional. [SPEAKER_03]: This is why I do this work. [SPEAKER_03]: This is the hope. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this is what I think everybody wants, you know, the outcome. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, the truth is not everybody gets to the stage where the two of you are relationally, but I do want to remind those who might not be healing together that healing looks different.

45:13 [SPEAKER_03]: You can still have very much the calm nervous system and the freedom. [SPEAKER_03]: And everything can change, but that doesn't always look the way it does in your case, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And we never know how something is going to turn out. [SPEAKER_03]: There's so many factors that impact what's going to happen to a relationship.

45:32 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it is true. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my healing was, of course, I wanted us to work. [SPEAKER_02]: And I knew I would be okay if we didn't. [SPEAKER_02]: And this is, I think, the other thing that for me, [SPEAKER_02]: to see where this went. [SPEAKER_02]: Rather than feeling like I had to and I know a lot of partners don't feel like they have the choice because of whatever the reasons are.

45:58 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's tough. [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really hard place to be. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that regardless of what does happen with the relationship, even if the relationship is healing and things are great and moving in the exact direction that you want, it's still as important if not more important to know in your heart that regardless of that you'll be okay, right, that even if it wasn't that way, I'm going to be okay and it's more important for me to be okay than the relationship to be okay.

46:27 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. [SPEAKER_03]: Because betrayal is such a huge attachment trauma after discovery, most partners are. [SPEAKER_03]: And this is whether the partners a man or a woman, most betrayed partners immediately go into that the terror of abandonment of loss, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's your primary attachment person.

46:44 [SPEAKER_03]: And so often the focus is on the needs of the person who is betrayed, getting that behavior to stop. [SPEAKER_03]: And so the sad part of that is often the betrayed partner, at least for a period of time, is sort of left on their own. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, today, thank God there's so many more resources than there were years ago for the betrayed partners.

47:04 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I think a lot of partners because the focus becomes on the one who caused this and then on the relationship, the person is often lost for a period of time. [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, the true definition of healing and I said this earlier is really coming home to yourself. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.

47:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And partners need space. [SPEAKER_01]: And we talk about space so many times around partners. [SPEAKER_01]: And we as the betrayer steal that space. [SPEAKER_01]: We steal it by making it all about us. [SPEAKER_01]: We steal it by minimizing and defending and all the things. [SPEAKER_01]: And we need to help give them this [SPEAKER_03]: And you won't be able to as was your situation if you don't do the deep dive into yourself because somebody telling you back then, right?

47:55 [SPEAKER_03]: Hey Scott, you need to get rid of the space, right? [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that it would have landed. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it might have been, well, she's not giving me the space, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Where's the space that I need so much? [SPEAKER_03]: I'm over here drowning and I need that in our trends.

48:08 [SPEAKER_03]: To me, you are a real living example [SPEAKER_03]: to figure out how can I show up differently in this relationship and for my partner and actually help my partner heal from the damage that I caused and that was the motivation I think at the beginning was really to heal the relationship but I imagine you got the greatest gift in the world which is like you just said you are calm.

48:34 [SPEAKER_03]: You don't live in fear and crippling anxiety every day and Laura, what an incredible gift that you had the ability that you had tools so that you were able to stay and say, let me see what happens here. [SPEAKER_03]: Because you know, they say there is a 12 step slogans, it's something like stay for the miracle or don't leave before the miracle happens.

48:54 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, don't leave before the miracle. [SPEAKER_03]: And this sort of feels like a miracle. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it really does. [SPEAKER_01]: and we wouldn't be here without you. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you for trusting me. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for giving me the chance to be here.

49:11 [SPEAKER_03]: And who would have ever thought that one day we'd be sitting here like this, having a conversation that millions of people are listening to. [SPEAKER_03]: And this is just really beautiful. [SPEAKER_03]: Again, it's a reminder. [SPEAKER_03]: I know that I'm going to reflect on this. [SPEAKER_03]: This is like the beauty of life in life.

49:26 [SPEAKER_03]: You can't predict what's going to happen. [SPEAKER_03]: And you have to go through so much pain to get to different places, you know, if I really believe that I believe that as much as you have together today, it's a reflection of what was lost and all the pain and everything you had to go through to get here, right?

49:42 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's really an honor for me to have witnessed this. [SPEAKER_03]: And before you wrap up, I just want to give each of you the opportunity to share sort of a last thought if there's one thing that you want the people who are listening to this. [SPEAKER_01]: go first. [SPEAKER_01]: Laura was so much better at this than me.

50:02 [SPEAKER_01]: She kept saying, I can remember it so clearly, let's just be right here right now. [SPEAKER_01]: And that was so valuable to me because I would constantly be projecting, is life gonna feel this imbalanced forever? [SPEAKER_01]: Are we [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, this is the way it is for now, just letting this be okay.

50:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Letting where we are now, be okay. [SPEAKER_03]: It's great advice. [SPEAKER_02]: Damn, let's see, you know, I think I said it earlier, I don't want to say this to like really worry people or this is a long haul and so I think I'm just going to come back to the beginning and just talk just a tiny bit about boundaries our boundaries are really helpful so that our partner can do the work that they need to do.

51:05 [SPEAKER_02]: And then we need to have patients while they're doing that work, and I don't mean patients in the way of being a door map, that's not what I mean, but for me, it just, it takes time. [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe if we know that, going in, like buckle up, this is going to take time. [SPEAKER_02]: And how can you be okay while your partner is doing his work?

51:27 [SPEAKER_02]: So important. [SPEAKER_04]: Well, thank you both, I am so grateful that you were here. [SPEAKER_03]: I believe every podcast, obviously, I guess that I have in every podcast episode, hopefully is helpful and valuable. [SPEAKER_03]: But I really do believe that this is what people need. [SPEAKER_03]: Because there's million books these days.

52:02 [SPEAKER_03]: There are there are so many resources and it's incredible and conferences and just so many things. [SPEAKER_03]: but what there's not so much of is hearing the real stories from people, you know, the real stories of, again, I said at the beginning, I use that word success and I've got to think of a better word because it doesn't really represent what I'm talking about.

52:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Do you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_01]: We're a joyful couple. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you are a joyful couple, you were a connected couple, you were a loving couple, you were not a perfect couple, you are still on a path, but you laugh together, you have intimacy with one another, you show up for each other, you have a beautiful life together.

52:48 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, it's not perfect and we are intentional and I think even amid everything that was happening in the worst years of it, we still found time it's like that was a part of us and it wasn't all of us. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so we still try to create connection amid all of the turmoil.

53:10 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think once the initial crisis settles and stabilizes, it's incredibly important for couples who are trying to heal together to put it on some level in a box from time to time and say we're going to go and we're going to go out and do something fun we're going to do something we like to do together right that we always enjoyed we're going to find joy we're going to find a reason to laugh.

53:32 [SPEAKER_03]: And for people that are not staying together, or it doesn't look like that's the direction that they're going again, putting their own healing, their own pain in a box, and really close to impossible to do that during the initial crisis and to cut trauma. [SPEAKER_03]: but I'm not talking about that part, but to put it aside and go do something for yourself, go to a place that brings you joy or that helps your heart settle on your nervous system, come be with somebody with another person or other people who you feel safe with, who you can be yourself with, who you can cry with, who you can laugh with.

54:07 [SPEAKER_03]: That is part of the healing process. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not all talking about it all and going to therapists [SPEAKER_03]: reading every book in article. [SPEAKER_03]: That's important. [SPEAKER_03]: But thanks for bringing that up, Laura, that there's more to it. [SPEAKER_03]: And finding joy and finding ways to connect.

54:26 [SPEAKER_03]: Even when things are not perfect is a big part of this process. [SPEAKER_03]: So thanks for mentioning that. [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you to you both. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for being here and to everybody who's listening. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for continuing to show up. [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for continuing to listen and trust me.

54:40 [SPEAKER_03]: And I look forward to being back again soon. [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Martin. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Helping Couples Heal Podcast, where you're healing is our number one priority. [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like additional resources about the trail trauma, which will learn more about our coaching services, please visit HelpingCouplesheal.com or call 562-379-4325.

55:06 [SPEAKER_00]: our help is available worldwide. [SPEAKER_00]: Please support helping couples heal and continuing to reach others impacted by betrayal trauma by leaving a review on iTunes and sharing this podcast with someone you care about. [SPEAKER_00]: For additional support, follow us on Instagram and consider joining our helping couples heal private Facebook community.

55:25 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't an easy journey, but you don't have to do it alone. [SPEAKER_00]: Once again, thank you for listening.