I Am All In…Again: Rory is Not the Golden Child (Season 4 E22 “Raincoats and Recipes”)

I am all in.

Again!

More, more, more.

I want to kiss you more. More, more, more. I want to kiss you more.

I am all in. Again, with Scott Patterson and iHeartRadio Podcast. Hey, everybody. Scott Patterson. I am all in. Podcast 111 Productions. iHeartRadio Media. iHeart. podcast we have the season finale season four episode 22 raincoats and recipes with our very special co-host john stevens i'm also joined by suzanne french you know her you love her uh john hello uh how are you i am going to read before we get to you we have so many questions for you because you're just mr inside baseball And we've got you, and we're going to squeeze every ounce of knowledge out of you.

Leave no stone unturned, Scott.

And behind the scenes. You know, John, as producer, writer for Gilmore Girls, went viral for sharing that he is the reason for Kirk's Night Terror storyline. He has also worked on the OC Gossip Girl and current Amazon TV series every year. After, welcome to the show, John. Hi, Scott.

Thanks for having me, buddy. I really appreciate it.

You got it. You were a producer for season four of Gilmore Girls and a writer for season one through four. John, tell us how you got the job.

How did I get the job? That's a great question. I think, first off, that was my first job, you know. And by that I don't mean like my first television job. I mean like my first time people paid me money to like do work, which is shocking, number one. It shows Amy's judge of character. I'll say that too. You know, I'd moved out to LA and I was like, I'm going to, I'd heard that television writing was a job people got paid money for. So I wrote a couple of spec scripts, which is how you got a job back in 1999, I guess it was. And that was the first year, Scott, you remember this probably of the West Wing and the Sopranos. So I was like, these shows look like they're quality shows. So I wrote specs

of both of those, which are obvious comps to Gilmore Girls. You go, if you want a job with Gilmore Girls, write a Sopranos spec. I mean, it makes sense. complete sense right so i wrote those and i got two meetings from those scripts one on a darren star show called the street that lasted six episodes and the other was with amy and i was thinking about back upon this recently uh by meeting with amy the weekend before you know where you go and you meet with the show that's how you get a job as a television writer you meet with the showrunner i spent most of the weekend shopping for the perfect pair of khakis Which clearly I found because I got the job. But I showed up with Amy and we spent most of the meeting.

Amy was obviously wearing a hat. Say that, number one. We spent most of the meeting talking about our shared love for Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And I'm pretty sure that's why I got the job.

Okay. Yeah.

All right.

Did you have any idea what you were getting into? Because the dialogue was so different from anything else out there. Had you read the pilot or? Was there a pilot written or I guess there was, right?

Yeah, the pilot had been written and it was definitely different from other ones. But I honestly, Scott, I was too like, you know, fresh off the turnip truck to know the difference. Like, you know, it was like pilot seasons. You know, it was like William Morris sent me like a giant stack of pilots to like read through for all possibilities. So I didn't know enough, honestly, to know the difference between that and like some cop procedure where someone was saying, hands up. And every scene was three quarters of a page long rather than five or six pages long. What I knew from reading it was the...

Because I had been back in the day... Oh, my God. Where's my brain, Scott? What's the show that took place in Alaska, the small town?

Alaska small town?

Yeah. Northern Exposure.

Northern Exposure. Okay.

So I'd been a Northern Exposure fan back in the day as well as Picket Fences. So I read... the pilot, and I loved the sense of the small town and the community, you know? And I loved the voiciness of the show because even in the pilot back then, the voice came through, Amy's voice came through, you know, and the characters' voices came through. So I thought, I mean, first off, let me just say this. I would have probably taken any job anybody had offered me back from the time, but when I got that job, I was just thrilled. But- So I didn't know a little bit that it was a little bit different, but I didn't know how different it was. Right.

Okay. So pivotal season, season four was for all the characters. What was the discussion like in the writer's room?

Oh boy.

To wait this long for Luke and Lorelei to get together.

I'm sure you know all this because you guys have been talking about this forever. So I apologize if I rehash old stuff, but when you're a television writer, there are certain like, things in television writing history that hang over you and that color all your decisions, you know, and one of those cautionary tales is moonlighting, you know, and that moment when they get together in moonlighting and that show just take, it was so wonderful and it was so sparkly and fun intention. And then it just falls off a cliff. So even though we knew they, that that was the ultimate plan, you're like, you just got to hold it off as long as you possibly can.

Right. But that was a two-hander for all intents and purposes. I know they tried to make Gilmore Girls marketing-wise a two-hander. It wasn't. It just wasn't. It was so equally weighted in other areas and other characters. But yeah, no, I get that. I get that. Yes, you have to. You can't give them what they want because if you do, they're going to go away and there's a lot of data. Yeah.

Yeah, there's a lot of data. And also there was no, there's no franchise to the show. Like there's not a body every week or there was not a, you know, it wasn't like the pit or something like you really had the relationship stories to go to. And once you went there, you had to go there. So, and you didn't want to do the thing where they break up, get back together, break up, get back together as well.

Right, right, right.

And we wanted to see how you would turn out, Scott, obviously too, you know, this guy's a big question mark.

Yeah. Right, season four, still the question mark, of course.

I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure.

Yeah, we don't know if he's going to make it on this show. Why was season four, John, the season for big changes?

I mean, I think a lot of it is, you know, driven by Rory's age in many ways.

Yeah.

Because when you're an adult, your life doesn't, well, I'm sure your life is exciting and vibrant. Scott didn't change it so much. Most of our lives when you're an adult, they're like, The changes are very, very incremental. But when you're a teenager or a young adult and you're going off to college, that is a massive change. So we knew Rory was going off to college. That was going to change her life. It was going to change Lorelai's life.

It was going to upend everything. So the fact that that was there in the mix is like, well, we knew that was going to have ripple effects throughout everything.

Was there ever a discussion with Amy and Dan in the room where... you considered making multiple seasons out of one school year? Like extend Chilton out four seasons. She got two years at Chilton or something and then make it four seasons.

It's a good question. Obviously, take everything with a grain of salt because my memory is not what it used to be. But I want to say that that was raised at a certain point. And I think very quickly, Amy said no to that.

Of course. Another one of my ideas.

I think she says, Scott, pitch that.

Boo.

I think she knows she really wanted the integrity of the show to feel real.

You know what I mean?

And the minute you start like pulling that plastic out a little bit, pulling that rubber band a little bit, it starts to break a little bit. Because if you don't do it at the beginning, like, you know, the first example that comes to my head, Deadwood, every show is a day, you know? But they start that from the very beginning. Every show is 24 hours, so you can understand that, you know, or the pit or what have you. It would have felt like we were doing it for artificial reasons. So I remember, I want to say it was raised and Amy quickly said, nope.

All right, so the air date for this episode, May 18th, 2004, synopsis. It's a test run of the Dragonfly Inn where major revelations come to head. Luke and Lorelei move past the friend zone. but not without Jason trying to ruin it. A putrid attempt, I might add. Emily and Richard finally admit their separation and Rory and Dean make a big wrong decision about theirs, directed by Amy Sherman-Palladino, written by Amy Sherman-Palladino. Let's get into Rory and Dean. Here we go.

Rory is up at 3 a.m. making mac and cheese and doing laundry. She goes over to Lane's to play video games. Um, about Jess and Dean. She thinks Jess is unpredictable and talks up Dean because he is dependable and she felt safe with him feels like she blew it and didn't appreciate him. What do we think about all this, John? It's a little out of character for Rory and why'd they want to go this extreme for Rory to act this way and be the other woman?

Yeah, I mean, you were you're going right forward, Scott. You know, this is really, this is a hot button topic that I think people have incredibly strong feelings about.

We have our finger on the pulse.

You do, my friend. You know, I think, again, this was something that there was a lot of discussion about and I also feel like, again, I'm always nervous about my memories and not wanting to put words in anybody's mouth, you know, but I feel like Amy had a strong opinion about not wanting Rory to be a saint on television, you know, and really didn't want her to be just like this ideal that she was going to be somebody who made mistakes, you know, and that there was also going to be a line drawn from mother to daughter of like, you know, guys come into their lives and they make decisions they might not have made or their lives go left instead of right. And so, drawing that line to Rory, I think was part of it, but

also saying, this is the kid who is not going to be a golden idol. You know, they're going to do things that we may not like, and they're going to have to dig their way back out again, which I use, I'm going to put this in air quotes. No one's going to see it, but Hey guys, I have air quotes. We as dramatists really like, you know, like you want the characters to do things where they, where the audience is going, no, don't do that. I don't agree with that. And I think Rory is a classic example of this because I, I mean, Scott, what were you like when you were 17, Scott? Did you ever make decisions that Scott would look back on?

Golden or it was just all like you heard violins and angels.

When you were working in the Peace Corps and like also at the same time and writing.

Poetry.

Yeah, exactly. So I think that was the thinking behind it.

Yeah, you got to pox and all. You got to warn them up. Emily invites Rory to go away for the summer. Just the two of them, Richard and Lorelei, are surprised. And there is tension. Okay, I mean, all of a sudden, well, you know, if I'm Emily, I've had enough. I've just had enough. Pendleton, Lott, and now this. Mm-hmm.

That name just rolled off your tongue so well, by the way, Pendleton Lott.

Well, it's just such a red flag in this entire relationship, this entire marriage. Yeah. Was there discussion, were there discussions in the room about separating them when Emily discovered the Pendleton Lott, when Richard admitted the 30 years of lunches with Pendleton Lott?

I think discussion, yes, but not like, oh, we're going to do it now. there's always that sense of like, how can you, because they were a couple for whom their social appearance was so, so, so important, the idea that they were going to truly separate and truly break up, that never felt like it was going to be on the table for Emily, you know? But so how the question then, so we, that question was, I say that because we discussed that, you know? And then the question of like, well, then how do she, distance herself physically and emotionally from richard without making him move out without asking him for a divorce or something like that and some of that is like so we're going to go to europe and i'm taking my granddaughter with me you

know there's also an element to there i mean it's such a loaded decision you're making on the one hand if you go back to like season one richard and rory are going to go to fez maybe or that feels like that's a discussion perhaps so the fact that she's usurping richard's role in rory's life feels like a dig at richard number one You know, but also in my mind, at least when I was thinking about it, like Rory's really serves that Emily's cover in that situation.

You know, if Emily had gone by herself to Europe or whatever, that would have been a red flag to all their friends. Taking your granddaughter to Europe is a way of like, oh, I'm just taking my granddaughter to Europe and I can get away from this guy. You know, but nobody knows that we're going through all these problems.

I think another element of that, too, is that Emily is tired of Richard making decisions without her. And so this is her, like, asserting her own independence. Like, I'm going to go to Europe with Rory, and I'm not going to tell you about it first. We're just going to go.

Oh, 100%.

It's so wildly and perfectly passive-aggressive.

Mm-hmm.

All right, now let's get into all this Dean Rory stuff. Wow. I mean, Lorelei comes home, catches those two, and it's like, uh-oh, that's not the daughter I raised. Perfect example of not wanting to portray Rory as the golden child. But as a teenager with hormones raging, I guess. Quite an effective ending, I thought. Very effective. She storms out. I hate you for ruining this for me. And then breaks down. She calls.

Here's Lindsay's voice. Pretty powerful stuff.

It was great. Absolutely great.

It really was. And I'm just, I continue to marvel at the skills of Alexis. I just, I just, there is such an ease with everything. And I just, It's one of the big takeaways for me watching this again, because it's the only second time I've seen it. So she's marvelous.

She really is.

She really is. Isn't she just marvelous?

She's so real. You believe her, Ezra. She's so realistic. The performance is so naturalistic. It's so much more affecting because of that, I think.

Right. Guys, let's hop in an Uber helicopter and get over to the Dragonfly Inn. I hear there's a test run. So Lorelei is inviting the townspeople for a test run at the inn. Meanwhile, Suki is excited for the full kitchen staff. She has seven people, but they're only budgeted for five. Jason shows up. Wow. Jason. You know, I got to tell you, I really enjoyed watching that relationship unfold.

I really, really did. As a fan of the show, I got a kick out of him. And he lost me with the first night that they were together and then won me right back with admitting to how quirky and weird he is about. And then putting Lorelei in that beautifully appointed room, guest room, and making her feel very special. And I thought, boy, that guy, he's owning that quirk. He's owning the quirkiness. And that's why I just like, all right, I'm into this a little bit.

Let's go. Let's see where this goes.

I agree. He was a really specific character in a way, but also very subtle. It didn't come out and hit you over the head immediately with all his eccentricities that kind of unfold.

Yeah. I just love that. I love the relationship. I was kind of sorry to see it end. I wanted it to go a little longer.

And the casting of that was great. I thought, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, he was perfect for that. He really was. Okay, this is In the Room, the first kiss. How much discussion happened in the room about the first kiss? Did Amy said it's coming at the end of season four? Did everybody know? What were those discussions like?

I really tried to think about this. I really did. I cannot remember because I feel like. My mind says it has to have had, you know, because it's so dramatic. It has to have, like, there has to be the reason behind it. There hasn't been like mucho discussion. But I also feel like if I'm to make suppositions, I think Amy had it in her mind for a while.

Right. Right.

Because she did have dramatic signposts in her mind that we would find out sometimes way down the line, you know? And I think that was probably one of them. But I knew I, so I, Unfortunately, that's one of those ones where I do not remember. I wish I could give you some light on that. I can make something up, but I don't think it would be true.

So I'm poking around the internet and I'm watching parts of the episode on a YouTube channel, some guy who's hosting it from the UK. And he's got a little bubble in the bottom left. bottom right of the screen and he's commenting on the episode. So this is what he does. He has his own thing. He's got subscribers and it's like, he's doing a rewatch thing too. And so this, the first kiss comes. Yeah. And this is the first time this guy is seeing it and you forget how this impacted fans. This was the first time I've seen this. Amazing. And this guy was, he's like 30.

He's in his room and he's commenting on every little thing. So you can hear the dialogue, but you also hear him and he's a little loud. He's going, no, no, don't do it. And it's like this play by play, like it's a game or something.

Oh, that's amazing. I wish I could have seen that. That's amazing.

Well, his reaction is everything. This guy's reaction. I mean, he just, he falls out. He doesn't know whether to laugh or cry or, and he just like almost falls out of his chair.

That is perfect. That's exactly what you want.

This is unbelievable.

Because it's so rare when you make television, you never get to be there when people are really watching it.

No, but this is fascinating to watch this man's reaction. Yeah. Anyway, we'll come back to that. All right. So the first kiss.

Yep.

Great. moment.

Key moment.

Key moment. And it's all that Jason stuff. And I thought really good stuff. Good scene between Jason and Luke. Good, great scene between Luke and Lorelei. One of my favorite, obviously. And then, yeah, of course, Kirk is, is going to run through there.

Is the best.

And as I noticed, and the guy watching it live, he seemed a little disappointed. that Kirk was running through and a little confusing because he said, well, they're going to go for like round three. Like he wanted more kissing, right?

That seems to be the general reaction. Like so annoyed at Kirk for ruining that moment.

But that's like, you know, I wanted to, I yelled at the guy, but that's Amy Sherman Paladino. That's what she does, bro.

It's going to be super emotional and then we're going to undercut it.

Right. So good.

Not always with a naked dude running past, but with something.

Yeah.

I do remember that. I do. I do have like strong memories of like that. I feel like, I was like, I feel like her joy at realizing that's what's going to happen. It's going to be undercut.

Right. You know? Well, John, you posted on Instagram that you are the reason why Kirk got night tears because you used to have them.

I still have them. I had one the other night. I thought I was free. Came back.

Really?

Well, we were staying up. We were up at this cabin up in the mountains and, a couple of nights before a bear had torn open our rat, our garbage hutch, you know, rip the door off it. So I was sleeping with like pots and pans next to the bed in case the bear came back. And so two nights later I just leaped out of bed and like was running around banging pots and pans. And my wife and son were like, what is wrong with you? There's nothing outside.

It's still like buried inside me somewhere. But, but I remember, yeah, that when I taught, when I told that story in the room, Amy's reaction was like, obviously Kirk has that.

Right, right, right. Well, Emily, we can go back to Dragonfly. Jason, you know, he's not leaving. He's not going to leave. He's determined. And Lorelei's just like, oh, God, I have to deal with this. Realizing maybe the effect that she has on men is a little deeper than most. And I thought Beautifully Played Again by Chris Eggerman just did a great job. Just such a great job. He just wants to talk it out. He wants to talk about the relationship. And she just can't get rid of the guy.

He goes, well, I'm going to be sitting here. And that's another thing I like about him. It's like, yeah, fight for her. You've got to, because you really blew it, pal.

But it's also like, that's not the way like most breakups go in television, which are so great. Usually you get in there and it's like, like, okay. And they walk away.

Right.

You know, again, I think it's one of the things that Amy and Dan did so well in the show is like, everything's a little bit of a left turn. Like it's the, it's what you think is going to happen. Like it goes down the road and then it always skews somewhere idiosyncratic.

How much presence do Amy and Dan have in the, in the writer's room? Let's say it's, when is your week start for a new episode? How ahead of the game are you? I mean, we're filming episode three. Is episode four already written?

No, historically, and I'm sure you know, I mean, obviously you know this, the scripts would not always come in on time, you know? And frequently things were being written right before we were shooting them so that people were prepping off of very, very detailed outlines, but outlines, the director, I mean, nonetheless. You know, there was not a big planned ever any, I mean, you didn't, again, you know, this Scott, it's like never any season. Like I would say we had most like guideposts, like signs. We knew we were headed here. We knew here ahead at the end of the season, we knew that this was going to be the mid winter finale, you know? And a lot of that was helped by the fact that Gilmore girls was a show so tied to seasonality. You know,

there was always going to be a fall episode. There was going to be like a winter Christmas episode. There was going to be something that happened in the spring that, And because we knew that we could kind of map things out a lot of that based upon Rory's school year, at least for the first chunk of shows, you know, but no, there, we never really got that far ahead, which always made it a little bit terrifying, which is amazing to me to look at it now that it holds together as well as it does, you know, because it was not really a plan.

Take us through a typical day. You start the episode, you start brainstorming on a Monday. Yep. You come in, it's eight o'clock, it's nine o'clock, 10 o'clock. That's pretty good. All right. How many writers are in the room?

It would vary between like what? As we held around five, six, Dan, you know, and the breakdown was usually Dan was probably more always present in the room. Cause Amy spent a lot of time on set and a lot of time in editorial, you know, especially as the season would go on, we would start the season with, after season one seasons two three and four at least that i was there we would do a week-long writers retreat you know before the season began we go to vegas um obviously as one does or we went to palm springs one time and we would just sit around and talk about big picture where the season is going to go for that season which we would where we would map out the big things of like you know here jess is going

to arrive here and it's going to fall apart here and etc and etc And we try to map out that as well as individual standalone episode ideas. And then those would be to large part in the writer's room on a separate whiteboard on the side that we would always be referencing. And then constantly going back to and recorrecting as you do kind of a larger season map.

Okay. So you're working on that outline, that whiteboard before anybody opens up their laptops and starts typing. Oh, yeah.

Nobody ever opens up a laptop, but yes.

Right, right, right.

We got a writer's assistant for it.

Okay, so you guys aren't actually... So the writer's assistant is getting all this information down.

They get it all on the board. And then we have the board when you have the episodes beginning and you have basically frequently a concept for the episode. Sometimes that concept is like Rory's birthday party, I'll call it that. And you know that there are going to be two birthday parties defining the episode. Or the dragonfly end. So you have a defining event. And then we would start to kind of go scene by essentially go scene by scene okay as opposed to other shows the there was a lot more of it was put on the board than on many shows that i've done.

Okay okay and are you are you writing scenes and then amy's rewriting them or is dan rewriting them how is it working in the room.

Yeah yeah it's in the room you would do it all be again on the whiteboard And it would be very, very, very detailed. We would even put dialogue, like good lines of dialogue. We'd go on the whiteboard. Sometimes there's no room. You'd put it in the writer's assistant. Okay. I would never call that writing like the episode, you know, but that would be very, very close to, would be pretty close to an outline by the time you got through.

And that's, and that's what Amy and Dan need. They need that outline. And then they, then they go at it with their dialogue.

Either that or like one of the other writers would do the first draft, would do a draft and then Amy or Dan would do a pass on the draft.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay.

And that process could take two weeks probably.

Oh really? Okay. Yeah. All right. Interesting. And is it, are you ever, so you're doing, are you ever doing multiple episodes on that whiteboard? No. Arcs? Just, it's all one at a time?

Yeah, but you have a board, you have an arc board typically.

Right. Gotcha.

And then you have the episode that you're working on right in front of you.

How many hours are you putting in every day?

You know, we'd work 10 to, like, we'd take a break at 1, you know? I'd come down, I'd visit you and set, check in, make sure Scott was okay. And then we'd come back at, like, 1.45, and we'd work typically till 5.

Was I okay?

You always seemed like you had a lot going on. You know, I was always interrupting your poetry writing and your... But then we'd usually, I mean, Gilmore Girls had... historically amazing hours for the writers. You know, you would work until we'd really wrap around five, maybe five 30, you know, we rarely got dinner. I think we got dinner twice in the four years that I was there.

Wow.

There were other shows. I remember in the building there and they would be like watching us leave at five 30. And those poor bastards were in there till like midnight every night.

Awful.

Anyway. Yeah, it was good.

John.

It was also tough. It was also tough. It was also like high attrition among the writers, you know?

Right, right, right.

There's a lot of turnover.

Very demanding. Yeah. Yeah, it was a demanding show. It was a tough show. Everybody worked really hard. I mean, top to bottom. But boy, I sure do miss it, you know?

Yeah.

Sure do miss it. What a great group that was. Such a talented, hardworking, driven group. you know, everybody wanted to be great. Everybody's trying to make like this great little gems of episodes, you know, it's just, it was very not.

I was thinking that the other day, this guy's a long lines of what you're saying. One of my memories that came back to me was late at night. One night we were shooting out in front of Luke's and I was on set just watching. And it was a scene between you and Lauren. And it was like a very Lauren was a Laurel. I was super emotional and seeing, you know, and, all these emotions and Luke was very stoic and kind of like holding the space for her, you know? i really went there it was amazing yeah and after they took cut you came back over to video village and you're like wow like that was those are fucking chops and you're like and she was good too your delivery was so good.

But I mean, it's like, you know, that's part of the job. It's like you have to give her her room, her space to do her thing.

Absolutely.

Because if she doesn't feel secure, it's going to be harder for her to do that.

So much harder.

It's impossible.

You know, when you feel the relationship, when you feel the energy bond between the actors, you understand why they can get to the places they need to get to because they feel supported. And when that is missing, you're like, oh, we're always going to be at 75%, 80% otherwise.

Yep. It's palpable. Yeah, it really is. John, I could talk to you all day. Please come back. We've got to run. So appreciate your insights and all the best on your new show. And everybody, and Suzanne, thank you again for coming. And always a joy. And you're always welcome to co-host with me. I know you're busy. You have a huge schedule. You're off to Monaco, your summer home, and you're still going back and forth on the yacht and all that.

Yeah, that's why my internet is so bad today, floating around on my yacht in the Mediterranean.

How was the Grand Prix? Was it entertaining? Was it fun this year again? Anyway, best to you and John. Best fans on the planet, keep those cards and letters coming. Remember where you lead. We will follow. Stay safe, everyone. Hey, everybody, don't forget, follow us on Instagram at I Am All In Podcast and email us at gilmore at iheartradio.com.

I Am All In…Again: Rory is Not the Golden Child (Season 4 E22 “Raincoats and Recipes”)

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