The Save Europe Act and the Bad Faith Nazis Who Created It Part 2

Call zone media.

Hi everyone this is future mick adding some stuff for less future mick who you'll be hearing most of during the podcast this episode took a pretty long while i'm not sure how long it will be in post-production but for my own recording we talked for almost three hours which is a lot Therefore, this episode will be cut into multiple pieces. Make sure to start at part one.

I'm sorry for any awkward breaks in the post-production, but it was very hard to keep that in mind while we were recording. Hope you enjoy it. And we're back and we're going to speak of the fascist Barbie doll that Molly knows nothing about.

Say the name again.

Eva Vlaardingerbroek.

Yeah, the American mouth simply can't make those sounds.

Eva Heidrich, you can do that. Because, you know, we already compared it to the Nuremberg Law, so we might as well, like, drag the Heidrich and the Wannsee conference in it as well. So, I wouldn't be surprised if this was written at a lake house somewhere. So, Eva Vlaringenbroek is the self-proclaimed shield maiden of the far right.

That's an actual title she uses in her Twitter bio.

Great.

That sucks.

It was used as an insult by a columnist, and she cleverly adopted it into her brand.

That's not a very good insult. Like, of course she liked that.

Yeah, yeah, you're giving her what she wants.

I'm not going to defend our columnist, ever. I should note that she is significantly more, like, clean than our boy Martin Sellner.

No swastika-related arrests?

Exactly. Exactly.

Or.

Like any ties to neo-Nazis or with figures as unsavory as the Christchurch shooter.

That we know about.

That we know about. She does have a master's in encyclopedia and philosophy of law. During her studies, she became more active with the Dutch conspiracy slash fascist party, Forum for Democracy. With them, she also partook in an internship at their faction in Brussels. After that, she worked as a lecturer there. which she later gave up to join the Dutch parliament as a member of said fascist party.

She would later quit this after a political fallout with party leader Thierry Baudet and the League of Group Chats of their youth party, which were distasteful, to say the least, to women, to minorities. Like, I don't need to explain how this group chat looked like. You can make an educated guess and be correct.

Yeah, I mean, any time the group chat to a right party youth group get leaked, it's not going to be wholesome shit.

Is it?

No, that happens here every now and again. We know what those look like.

Yeah, it happens everywhere.

Don't be in chats at all. Don't do it.

A small detour.

A few months ago, there was on the subreddit a discussion on which Dutch bastards should be covered. And everyone said it should be Geert Wilders.

Okay.

That was what name?

Geert Wilders.

That's how you say that? Yes.

Yeah.

Give it a cry, Molly. See where you, where were you at with it?

Okay.

We've lost Molly.

But anyway, like I strongly disagree with that because Wilders is also like an overt fascist, but he's not funny. Like there's no funny behind the bastards to do about it.

Sometimes there's no jokes you can make about the fascist.

No.

Yeah, I mean, the comedy about him lends itself to a visual medium.

Yeah.

Is what I will say. He looks like Sonic the fucking Hedgehog.

Yeah.

But Charybada is really funny. Like, he's also a fascist, but he was assaulted in public multiple times. He was hit in the face with an umbrella.

That's a European way of going about it.

I respect that.

Yeah, I think it was a Ukrainian national.

They don't have guns. They have to be creative.

It was caught on tape. So that's really funny. You can make a more funny episode about him. He had a motion in our parliament for the humane treatment of Andrew Tate when he was arrested in Romania.

Okay.

Because he's always been, I'm sure, a passionate defender of prisoner civil rights, right? That's something he's always been interested in.

Loves to advocate.

He was also very passionate about consent, saying that when women say no, they actually want you to go on. Oh, dear. Also on camera. So great figure. Anyway, details aside, during the waves, this fallout between Eva and Baudin was caused. He would retaliate by repeatedly mentioning their relationship publicly, which forced her hand to denounce it as being just a few dates after which their fling ended. Eva would later tell Das Telegraaf, Cherry knew how scared I was of this coming out. If it gets out, you don't owe anything you've achieved to yourself. What I feared happened. I was the resentful ex, and even more blatant sexist remarks poured in.

Oh, no. Did she not know sexism could happen to her? This happens to far-right influencers all the time. Like, it happened to Lauren Southern and maybe Brittany Pettibone, too. But, like, these women in this movement, they're like, I didn't know they were going to be sexist to me. Girl, you're at a Nazi party.

Maybe I'm giving her too much sympathy, but.

You are.

Probably, but this entire piece is heavily colored by my own opinion, but I'm also trying to sometimes be a bit more distant with it. But clearly she received some pretty harsh comments that were dripping with sexism during the fallout.

No doubt that she did. I'm not saying that's good or that it's acceptable, but what did you think would happen when you laid down with dogs?

That is very fair, but I also want to say her womanhood was very.

I just want to exterminate people I don't like. I didn't know anyone would be mean to me. i guess i'm just.

Mean your words not mine like i'm still trying to like have a for this specific instance have like some sort of sympathy for her because her relationship and her womanhood were essentially like weaponized against her in a way to incite that sexism.

And she would know nothing about weaponizing people's identities against them to to produce any kind of violent result.

No like Like she's a horrible person with horrible politics. Like I'm not denying any of that.

But I'm not saying it's good or acceptable that these things happen to these women. It's just like, what do you not see that that's what you're doing to others?

I think I think there isn't enough introspection for that.

But no, there's not.

Yeah.

Well, no, because they they think that bad things should not happen to them because they're fully human and the people they're doing it to aren't.

Right.

Like, if you're going to draw lines around humanity, don't find yourself surprised when the line is drawn and you're on the other side of it.

And, like, the underpinning of so many of these ideas heavily relies on misogyny, too. Like, you know, you're not just going to do fascism and white supremacy and xenophobia and immigration restriction without... Those guys are misogynists, too, babe.

That's very true. I think I was mostly just trying to find my own moral line in there because... Like, two horrible people, but still, I would... Somewhere... Nah.

I'm just always surprised they're surprised.

It's the line, I couldn't believe the leopards eating my face happened after voting for the leopards eating faces party.

Yeah.

For instance, the way I still think it's fucked up that it happened that way to her. And maybe sympathy is going too far, but I think that's for each to their own to decide upon. But... To go back more to funnier stuff, my first breakthrough in political activism was in December of 2019, when the Dutch newspaper Het Parool published that opinion piece that we mentioned earlier, criticizing her anti-feminist speech at the Forum for Democracy Party Congress.

Her disdain for modern feminism could also be seen in her master thesis on The contractualization of sex in the MeToo era.

If you think feminism is damaging to society, why do you think you deserve the benefits of feminism?

Because.

Probably. And this is where she gets funny again a bit. Because unfortunately, I couldn't find her full thesis because I had looked for it. I was curious because she completed it with honors. So I was like, okay, I want to know what this looks like.

Maybe it's good. Change my mind, Eva.

Yeah, share it on Twitter. She did, however, post an essay in English on her Twitter account, which drew heavily on her thesis. And to be a bit fair and balanced, it's not horrible.

I'll be the judge of that. Let me see it.

Well, for the most part, it's just concerns about a social... structure such as consent being codified into.

Law so she's saying rape should be legal.

That that's not what she is explicitly saying but she does seem to see consent as exclusively like a contract between two people rather than like an agreement i mean their.

Petition is explicitly saying something very different than what it actually means i don't think we have to take these people at their word oh yeah i'm not gonna take a fascist at her word that's not what i'm in the business of doing.

Now I'm feeling like I'm very uncritical.

No, you're just much nicer than I am. Again, your words, but... And you live in a country with much stricter libel laws.

That's also true, but okay. I think there should be room for like good faith debate on this codification into law and possible side effects.

Sure, but she doesn't.

No, no, she absolutely doesn't.

Like the existence of good faith debate Sure, I'll concede to that. We can have a good faith debate on the legal structure. of consent. I wouldn't say there should be no legal structure for it because that just means rape is legal. But the thing is, is I'm not going to engage in a good faith debate with her because she isn't. Because she isn't and she knows it.

Yeah.

And so by allowing room for good faith debate with people like Eva for blah, blah, blah, you are opening the door for this.

Right.

You are you are making room for her bad faith argument that is essentially just rape should be legal, but it shouldn't happen to nice girls like me.

OK, well, yeah, look it. It's not bad faith. It ends in bad shit. No, it's bad faith. It is. It is explicitly in bad faith. Molly, hold your horses because I've got here like the last one and a half paragraphs of that piece. As kind as I was for like the preceding paragraphs, I'm going to be as blunt about the last one. It's absolute bonkers.

I'm looking forward to it.

This is not like even going from zero to a hundred.

This is.

zero to a thousand in the span of a couple sentences. Quoting this from her essay, which was posted on Twitter on April 29th, 2026, for those who want to see it for themselves. To compensate for the legal uncertainty this law will create, people will seek refuge in contracts, which can now simply be downloaded via mobile apps such as Legal Fling and have a direct legal effect. Although the desire to create a consent culture may stem from good intentions, This consent culture has unforeseen consequences that pose a danger to romance and freedom.

Oh, fuck off.

Okay.

Always interesting to see what the libertarians want. I'm using libertarian in the American sense here, right? Want the states to not take an interest in. This same person who wants the state to take an interest in tearing people's lives apart doesn't think the state belongs in determining what is and is not consent because we have an app for that.

Fuck off. James, I'll heavily disagree with you here. Nothing is more romantic than when I want to engage in some adult fun with a partner than having an app to sign a literal contract on what is and isn't acceptable.

You know AI drafts a contract.

You know chat GPT is getting up in there and putting some weird shit in your contract.

And this is such a tired thing. I'm showing my age here, but when I was in college 20 years ago and we had these mandatory contracts trainings on like what is consent like don't get raped at a party and guys would say like these 18 year old guys would say shit like oh i'm gonna have her sign a contract this is like tired dumb shit that guys who rape people say.

Well i wasn't even done but i'm glad for your passion okay carry on suppose such a contract is signed how do we know for certain that it was not signed under coercion or for example under the influence of alcohol and or drugs And what if a woman signs at 11?

Right, those are the same questions about consent we already have.

Coercion, alcohol.

Yeah, but now we have an app.

But now there's an app.

Yeah, so then to solve all of those questions, right?

Yeah, now it's about the legality of such a contract instead of the legality of.

Instead of the legality of rape.

Yeah, you've made a get-out-of-jail-free-card app. That's what she seemed to think. That's literally the phrase she uses. What if a woman signs at 11 p.m. but changes her mind at 11.10 p.m.? And her partner acts in bad faith. Then he rapes her and he has a get out of jail free card. After all, she signed a contract.

So no one will believe her anymore.

Right?

Oh, wait.

So she's not proposing the app contract.

No, no, no.

She's saying it wouldn't work.

Oh, my apologies.

So she's saying there just should be no legal concept of consent at all.

She's just against the concept of consent. I mean, one consent can be withdrawn.

It's like it's not the fucking like end game argument that.

A 12-year-old Reddit user might think it is.

Like, I was still not done with this.

This is an essay a moron would write.

Oh, oh my, Molly.

This is the sort of shit that, like, I have graded some essays of, like, undergraduate and even, like, postgraduate students and, like, this is the kind of puerile shit that, like, anyone who's going through, like, a serious attempt to be a serious writer should be fucking, like, I know, like, whack-a-mole.

Like, All of the points in this essay came up in my mandatory don't rate people training in college in 2007.

Yeah, like this is like the logic of like a frat guy trying to be funny.

First, she sees consent as like exclusively contractual. And I think that's where she goes.

That's very romantic.

Yes. Also, I wasn't done because that was not the bonkers part.

Oh, the last sentence is phenomenal. You're going to love this, James.

Okay, great.

Yeah, hit me. Okay, after all, she signed a contract, so no one will believe her anymore, right? Solutions to this kind of problem will not be found in anything other than even more rules and even more government interference. What is the next step? Cameras in the bedroom or a civil servant standing beside your bed? This new sexual offense law creates more problems than it solves. All of this legal uncertainty, the erosion of the presumption of innocence, the extinguishing of romance... indicates that we should not even want to crack the door open to this Orwellian nightmare.

No! Every time!

No!

No door! Every time!

I knew it was coming.

I knew it was coming and I'm still angry.

What is it, 1984?

It may still sound abstract to you, but ask yourself the following question in all seriousness. I'm serious. How many totalitarian regimes in history can you name that went so far as to write rules and laws? dictating how people must behave in the bedroom. The question answers itself.

Making rape illegal basically makes you Hitler.

This is insane.

The same person who wants the state to fucking kick people out for not being white. It's a little too far if they're policing rape, though, isn't it? That should be something we settle amongst ourselves. They always do this, and I find it so fucking annoying. Obviously, the most annoying thing here is not being wrong about George Orwell, who had some fucking issues with consent himself.

But God, it pisses.

The whole thing, it's just... It's so puerile.

This would be better if she did let ChatGPT write it.

Yeah.

Now I'm wondering how this person... If this is a topic she explored for her master's degree... We do need to find the thesis. Also let ChatGPT grade it, is what I'm wondering. Because, like Molly said, if you worked in education... Like, I've been in higher education for 20 years. And yeah, you've heard this shit from an 18-year-old guy whose shirt doesn't have sleeves for the most part, right?

And like, I wear a lot of sleeveless shirts myself.

Like, that's fine.

But there's a type of dude who's been saying this shit to you every September since you started talking about this shit, right? And like, just because a lady wrote it in a fucking thesis doesn't make it any less dumb.

Well, this is actually a Twitter post.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, that makes more sense. That makes a lot more sense.

If this is drawn from her thesis... If that's a line.

Of argumentation she went with.

If this is the quality of thinking in her master's thesis, I actually do really want to see it now. We have to find it.

Where did she do her master's thesis?

Leiden University.

Okay.

Did she make a significant donation at any point to Leiden University?

Well, like, if we're detouring already, there is like a prominent supporter of the fascist party who teaches at Leiden Law School. So... Great. And that's also where Charlie Baudet, who we mentioned earlier, did his promotion research, which was also incredibly bad to the point that one of the people graded it said, you should not get a PhD.

This is like... For anyone who doesn't know.

Yeah, that doesn't happen very often.

You defending your PhD is mostly a formality?

Yeah, like, you might get some difficult questions.

Yeah. But people who go into their defense normally expect to leave with a PhD, right? Like, if your shit's so bad... And, like, if they don't tell you about it before you get to the exam, it's.

Because they really don't like you very much, right?

Like, if you've got to that point where you're having your you're defending with your committee and they haven't been like, hey, this is really bad.

You need to rewrite this. You have made an enemy.

Yeah, I guess done is good enough in most cases.

Yeah, yeah.

Because I don't have occasion to read very many theses or dissertations, but every time I do, I'm surprised that it worked. You know what I mean? I did a close reading of... There was a Holocaust denier who died in a murder-suicide. He killed his wife.

And his.

history thesis was one of the worst things i've ever read and i was so surprised and a bunch of listeners wrote in to my my show email to say oh no that's it's pretty normal for a thesis to be just absolute dog shit.

Yeah i don't want to i don't want to take that one as a representative sample uh but they do say your thesis should be the first draft of your book or your dissertation if you're in the u.s and uh i it's really easy if you're in grad school to get way too wrapped up in making it perfect but also some people still manage to uh do some nazi shit and I'm glad that someone held the line.

Like all of his citations were to David Irving books and like they still gave him the degree.

Yeah. There's a couple of Infowars citations. Citation.

Author's email with David Irving.

Maybe David Icke gets in there for some real old school credibility.

I had a professor during my master's and at some point he said, like, all of your master theses will probably be shit. And that's fine because the master thesis is for you to learn.

There's value to having a piece of writing that doesn't have to be perfect and like I'm sure if I looked at lots of academics who I deeply respect and read their master's thesis or their PhD dissertation I would be able to witness their growth and that would give me hope as an academic that we can all get better.

But it sounds like she didn't learn much, because this essay is something a moron would write, I'm sorry.

Oh, no, the Orwell mention, because... Anyone.

Mentioning Orwell in a piece of academic writing needs to.

Are you a teenager?

No, but Orwell did have some pretty good opinions on how to deal with fascists, you know? So I find it ironic that a fascist is quoting it. Because she hasn't read it!

Yeah, many such cases, right? Yeah, exactly.

She's engaged with 1984 through cultural memes, in the same way fucking Elon Musk has. Like Orwell, I read Dorian Linksey's book about Orwell writing in 1984 recently. And the amount of his life that he spent after Animal Farm being like, no, you guys don't fucking understand it.

That's not what I meant. Please stop it.

Specifically with Americans, but on a much broader scale. The amount of time he spent like trying to refuse interviews, being like, no, I'm a man of the left and that is a group. And like that I remain or something was one that he wrote in a letter refusing an interview. But the poor guy spent his dying days being like, you motherfuckers haven't understood my book, you stupid pricks.

And every year they dig him up and do the same shit.

That must be absolute torture for him.

Like the red pill from the Matrix.

I'm going to use a Ouija board to tell George Orwell about Alex Jones.

The guy has suffered enough, Molly.

The answer to 1984 is 1776. one of alex's favorite lines.

Ah i know that god just there's an inside joke i love that when molly goes on a rant her camera like automatically zooms in a little bit and it just gets extra ominous.

Yeah you get like she's doing it that's it that's an old alex jones trick actually get them forehead veins to.

Pop To try to get us back on track again. Sorry. Like, she's very much into the same, like, female nationalism that we discussed with also you, Molly, during the Quentin Derank episodes.

But without any feminism or proper nationalism.

No, it is, again, all feminism is we need to stop being raped by migrants and then everything is solved. Which is not the case.

No, we just should be raped by our husbands, I guess, is her argument. I don't want to be raped by an immigrant. I want to be raped by a husband.

Yeah, that's... As is tradition.

She would probably agree that that would be fine or deny that that such a thing is possible.

Yeah, I think.

Yeah, more likely.

But it's a contract.

Yeah. Anyway, some of the listeners may also have had the misfortune of seeing Eva on the Tucker Carlson show.

He knows how to pick them.

Yeah.

At the moment, she is married to Francesco Gargalo di Castellantini. a Roman-based lawyer who is descended from a long line of Italian noblemen. He's a constitutional lawyer who practices in a number of countries and recently defended a woman who in 2021 refused to take a PCR test when she traveled from Spain to Norway.

God, the Venn diagram. I want the government to be powerful enough to rip apart families and sink boats full of children in the sea. But I don't want the government to be able to make me put a swab in my nose to prove I don't have a deadly disease.

Cool and normal stuff. I don't want to be surprised, and I'm not, but also I am. Further, she spoke at multiple Unite the Kingdom rallies in the UK, including in the September of 2025 one, where she encouraged attendees to stand up to their governments. Protests ended in violence. 26 police officers injured and 24 people arrested, according to the Daily Mail. It does, however, not mention if the police were there in their professional capacity or not, which I think is a meaningful distinction to make there. This incident also led her to from being barred from the UK as her presence was not considered conductive to the public good. After this, she labeled Keir Starmer a tyrant.

If anyone has ever seen an interview with Keir Starmer, you know this is untrue because Keir Starmer is the dark crevice where charisma goes to die.

Yeah, he lacks the charisma for fascism.

For anything. He is the most bland, flavorless politician you've ever seen. I don't want to slander Keir Starmer because I would like to visit the UK at some point again.

But not that.

The demand.

Calling a British politician a little bit bland is not slander.

Well, we got Andy Burnham now who.

played the Smiths to a group of soldiers in Ukraine on a guitar recently.

Why?

It's the most British thing that anyone's ever done. He was visiting Ukrainian soldiers. Was he trying to cheer them up? That's what I can't understand. Doing a morale trip and being like, here's a sad song written by a really annoying guy.

I like the Smiths, but Morrissey's a prick. I think we can all acknowledge that.

Maybe that's proof he's on Russia's side trying to incite mass suicide.

Yeah, he's trying to.

Demoralize the troops.

Yeah, yeah. It's a song about suicide.

Yeah, I heard you were having a hard day. Why don't you enjoy some Morrissey?

Yeah, his heaven knows I'm miserable.

You have to be as miserable as I am, so I'm playing this song. Okay. That was all the fun stuff I had on the fascist shield maiden, to be honest. Still some funny stuff in there, but also... Jesus fucking Christ.

But unsurprising on all fronts. These people are exactly what he would expect them to be.

Yeah.

I'm not even surprised that she married a nobleman.

No, that's classic fascism stuff. Love that for her.

Yeah.

All of this.

Italian nobles, famously unproblematic.

It's like Colin Jordan marrying the Dior heiress. Like, okay, I got it.

I got it. There is one more composed golem that we have to talk about. And this one takes great effort in remaining more behind the scenes. I'm curious if you guys have heard of him. That applies to both his role in pulling Europe even further to the right, but also his personal life. It is the chairman of the World Congress for the Family, hailing from the United States, Mr.

Brian Stephen Brown.

I've never heard of Brian. He sounds very boring. Just like a garden variety, like a weird pervert. Brian Stephen Brown.

Yeah, he has a Wikipedia page. Oh, okay.

I recognize the symbol on the podium where he is here. Now, oh, he's the National Organization for Marriage guy.

Yes. I think I wrote it down wrong in my script then. No, he's both.

It's the World Congress of Families I've never heard of. The National Organization for Marriage. That's a classic.

Now, I'll consider this feedback on my script writing.

Oh, no, it's just that's that's the hate group I'm familiar with of the hate groups he's affiliated with.

Yeah, there is more hate groups that he's affiliated with than we could name. It's a lot.

But yeah, America is full of these like vague sounding foundations for the focus on the family, the family, Congress, world, wives and babies or whatever. Like it's just like this word salad basically about weird white natalism and hating gay people and immigration. It's just sort of a grab bag, like whatever part of that you're into.

Yeah.

The Justice for Prosperity report that I used earlier states that the World Congress for Families is an ultra-conservative and transnational anti-rights network that opposes all the things you imagine it opposes. Abortion, same-sex marriage. It was labeled a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. Brown is also on the board of Citizen Go, a Spanish anti-abortion and anti-LGBT advocacy group. In fact, if you needed just a little bit more evidence of the type of bastard he is, he physically stood in the Russian Duma as it passed the anti-gay bill legislation. Great. Yeah, I've seen that picture as well. Oh, wow.

He looks exactly like you think he's going to look.

It's like a hairy thumb.

Yeah, this isn't a surprise to me. Like an otter or something? Like a bald otter?

Yeah.

Mole rat is what I'm thinking of.

Wait, so what's our American homophobe got to do with this? I got distracted looking at how weird he looks.

Yeah, that's understandable. We'll get there first, because he was not only just at the Duma for that legislation to pass. After he was present at that legislation passing, he was also repeatedly returned to Russia to chat with his buddies, Konstantin Maloviev and his right-hand man, Alexei Komov, allies of Putin. Well, What do they chat about? Probably about how great it is not to have polonium in your underwear or how dangerous falling out of a basement window is. I'm guessing.

I don't know. And I don't want to know because I don't want either of those things to happen to me. But Malaviv has been on both the EU and US sanctions list since 2014 for arming pro-Russian separatists. Oh, cool.

So not a guy you should really be hanging out with.

I feel like this is the through line, but it gets worse. It gets worse. He also helped finance regular conferences that merge multiple pro-family groups. Read pro-family as anti-abortion, anti-LGBT. Yeah, pro-family is a bold.

Pro exactly what kind of family?

Yeah. Anti-self-determination. And through this process, allegedly, they also extend the influence of Russian geopolitical policy into other countries. Other investigations from Justice for Prosperity also identified him as the primary coordinator and fundraiser behind the systemic deportations and relocation of Ukrainian children through his St. Basil the Great Foundation.

Jesus.

Under the aptly chosen name, Happy Childhood.

Fuck me.

Yeah.

And, like, I also want to mention, because James, we also had a chat about this. Yeah, forcefully displacing or relocating children constitutes genocide. That's one of the things that's a genocide. Yes.

That's in the UN definition of a genocide.

Yeah, yeah.

But it has to specifically be children. So like the quasi-Nuremberg laws that we read earlier are technically not genocidal because it's not explicitly children. But one could imagine what it would be So if you followed their policies to their logical conclusion.

Yeah.

But Brown is also involved with the Safe Europe Act. He was present at the first demonstration in Brussels, but his true involvement is much more behind the scenes. He co-owns a digital infrastructure company called AlternCloud, self-described as infrastructure as a service. Donations and other forms of digital infrastructure are moving through this. which originate either in the Save Europe Act, the donations I mean then, or people that like the initiative. And Alternate Cloud itself is also not shy about showcasing their political leanings. I'm quoting from their website.

We are excited to report we are now the digital backbone of businesses, organizations, websites, and apps across America and Europe. Current clients include conservative organizations like No Next Row, Never Newsome Pack, conservative and Catholic news organizations such as InfoCatho, La Salon Beige, and Les Forts Verités, family advocacy non-profits like International Organization for the Family, and tech companies such as Titanium Secure, Tech IG, and Ad Hoc Capital.

I love that they can just call it family advocacy when what it is is like violent homophobia and transphobia and anti-women's rights, anti-abortion.

Yeah, we're just a hate group.

Family advocacy for a very particular kind of family and everyone else can fuck off and die.

Yeah.

I'll say this much. At least he lives to his values because allegedly he has nine children.

His poor wife.

Oh, yes. A hundred percent.

Yeah, those poor children.

So the names mentioned earlier, we can already safely assume just what kind of clientele our alternate client likes to engage with. But what I find most disturbing is that he's clearly a very influential person of who we know very little. Say what you will about Musk or Zuckerberg or Bezos. At least we know what kind of crepuscular crotch goblins they are.

No, but the more effective guys are not making so much fucking noise.

That is what scares me about him. At that end, the picture you shared.

Not a handsome man.

No, would not want to wake up to that.

Would not want to make nine children with that.

Well, we don't know if his wife had any say.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess he'd be signing on to do business with a woman who thinks rape should be legal.

Yeah. Or like Russian genocide enjoyers.

Yeah. He's not huge on women's rights.

Yeah. Like, he's just sort of a connection point or a nexus for like Kremlin affiliates, European identitarian groups, the American Christian rights, and like similar anti-rights groups with... Like these conferences that his contacts also finance. That's all I have on him because there's just not much to find.

Well, now I'm curious. I'm going to keep looking.

Let me know if you find something.

Yeah, it is always interesting to find these guys who are pulling the strings and funding these giant hate campaigns, right? Like they very successfully astroturf these as like, Like ground level, especially like we see this all over the world with anti-migrant shit, right? Like, oh, the people are rising up.

There's 750,000 signatures on this petition.

Yeah.

Right?

Slash names.

Like there are 750,000 marks on my piece of paper. Yeah.

But like the British far right does this all the time, right? They're like, oh, Britain desperately wants to have an independence day, which is largely overlooking the fact that people who have independence days generally do so because Britain colonized them.

Because they're independent from Britain now.

From Britain, yeah. Who is Britain going to be independent from? Like Brussels? Come on, fuck off.

Like, yeah, the famously belligerent colonization of the Belgians.

Oh, like they want their own 4th of July? That's so cute.

Yeah, right.

That's cute.

Just do the king's birthday or whatever the fuck you guys are into.

We have a day.

We have a day on the 5th of November when we let off fireworks because, in a very British way, it is a day that people like to burn a Catholic in effigy. Oh.

I don't like that.

Yeah, no, it's actually not great.

But, like, they have very successfully... astroturfed their hate as like a popular uprising. And that is why they have been able to get some electoral support for it, right?

Like I was literally skeeting, I believe is the correct verb.

I don't think we're saying that.

Are we not saying it?

Okay. Posting.

I was posting. Let's use a generic term.

I was posting today a poll of British people who think London has, a poll of people, I should say, who think London has no-go areas.

It's fucking ludicrous. Like of big cities, London is like super safe. I have gone all over London, like walking or on my bicycle.

And so that's that thing where white people think that there are some neighborhoods that like they'll be murdered by immigrants if they go there.

Yeah, I mean, the construct that exists in the right wing mind is that like there are areas that are like under Sharia law in so much as that is a thing.

The whole neighborhoods of London under Sharia law. Going by the Ayatollah even probably.

Yeah, exactly. The IRGC in the form of the Quds Force is patrolling. They're such babies.

They're such babies.

Yeah, like this is being scared of anything that isn't.

Like a woman in a hijab looked at you and you thought you were going to get beheaded by ISIS. Like grow up.

Yeah like also if you're really worried about isis you know you could have gone to fight with the yep they gave more than a.

Decade but you didn't i've been to london and i've had a very pleasant cigarette smoke with a homeless person and never felt threatened.

Yeah london's like i've walked all around london i've uh literally just wandered into mosques in london because like i come from a very small village right i mean have a mosque in my tiny village and uh i've been to some mosques and i like them so i want to check out other ones like not a fucking problem people will be nice to you i.

Mean i think it's projection right like they want to hurt these people so they assume that those people want to hurt them.

Yeah yes i think that's probably a fair it's that what is.

That thomas jefferson thing you know we have the wolf by the ear we can't let him go if we let the immigrants have rights they'll do to us what we've done to them yeah well yeah like jefferson was saying that about the slaves but yes the principle.

Holds If you live your whole life by the clash of civilizations narrative, then it's impossible to understand the world in any other way, right? Because you see yourself as fundamentally opposed to people who are different from you.

But not everyone sucks as bad as you do.

Yeah.

In fact, most people are not pieces of shit. Maybe if we're looking to kick some people out, we could start with the fucking names on the petition.

That would be a good start.

The ones of them who are even real.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't think the state should be... Telling anyone from their family, to be clear, I don't think it's funny when someone gets deported. I don't care if they're a bad person. I find the laughing about people who don't like being deported deeply frustrating, actually, because we should abolish ICE and DHS and the whole deportation machine.

And Europe while we're at it.

Yeah, sure.

I mean, in the grand scheme of history, most of those countries are just a blip on the radar. Just abolish Germany.

I could support that. But I do want to piggyback a little bit on what you just said about the astroturfing, James, because the last bit of my script regards the discourse and violence that has happened in the Netherlands in the past few months, like downright terrorist attacks. But a lot of these local anti-immigrant protests, at least in the Netherlands, a core part is the defense groups that the three of us spoke about. They just go to small municipalities, stir shit up and make this whole anti-immigration sentiment seem so much bigger than it actually is. It's people taking a day off of work to go protest in some municipality that they don't live in and do violence and then claim like, oh, look at all these violent immigrants.

Don't look at me throwing heavy fireworks at people, which is a thing. I've had fireworks thrown at me. by those people it's not fun yeah it's preferable to being short i suppose but yeah that's.

A low bar yeah it's still deeply unenjoyable yeah also like our communities are so intertwined even more so than the u.s right like we don't have in much of europe this long history of redlining and using capitalism to do racial segregation to an extent we still have neighborhoods where people will want to live around services that they like to access, right? If you like to go to the mosque, it makes sense to live relatively near to the mosque. If you want to go to the good water.

Same thing, right?

But the idea that you could tear these communities apart is just so fucking... It's complete pie in the sky shit from people whose entire politics is informed by the internet and watching what's happening in America. You could no more tear immigrants from European cities and have them function than you could be like, all right, we're doing away with everyone who was born on an even numbered day.

Our fucking society doesn't function without each other.

And again, you just fall into this trap of how are we defining this? Who are you talking about exactly? How far back are you going?

Who counts?

Yeah, I mean, it seems like what they want is like the apartheid thing, right? Which even apartheid got into its own questions of how do we define people's race?

It became very messy and the government was deciding people's race without their input. And it was not a great situation.

Yeah, yeah.

But like the idea that our society could function without... people who aren't white or even people who have arrived in one or two generations ago. It's just pure and ridiculous. Like these people fucking suck.

I don't know. Like, like unserious people.

On the previous job of mine, I met this woman from Afghanistan and she was allowed to move to the Netherlands because she worked, I think for like NATO or an NGO. Um, because we all, we all were also involved in Afghanistan, of course. And she was so incredibly pleasant to work with. All Dutch people speak English pretty much as a rule. So if someone doesn't speak Dutch very well, we tend to immediately turn to English. And she was very much like, please talk Dutch to me.

I want to work here in a different job.

That's so brave of her to want to learn Dutch.

Yes. I tried to discourage her. It did not work. Garbage language. I'd rather have a hundred of her than whatever pathetic defense groups or whatever racist shit, because she's actually contributing and trying her very best. And these people are just out there, you know, stirring shit up. The fascists.

But much respect to that particular woman. She won't hear this, but beside the point.

No, but there are hundreds of thousands of people just like her, right? Contributing to their communities.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it was very valuable work at the time, what we did. Like, it was necessary.

Even if the work that she was doing was not valuable to humanity on a broader scale. Like there are hundreds of thousands of people like that woman who have gone to a place where they were not born and contributed to a community. And that's just not part of the conversation for these people because they don't care because they don't see people like her as human beings.

Yeah.

And also because they're not part of their communities, right? Because they're odious pieces of shit. Like all their friends are on Stormfront or what have you. Because no one wants to be around hateful bigots like this.

No, they're in a Twitter space going, yes, exactly, to each other.

Yeah.

But they don't have real world community.

This perspective doesn't survive contact with the outside world.

No, but they're trying to force it on all of us through bullshit like this, by shoehorning this discourse into respectable places and hoping some of that respectability rubs off on it.

You're so succinct, Molly. I'm jealous. To get back to the last bit, because ultimately the entirety of the Save Europe Act is exactly what you just said. It's shoehorning it in, making it normal to have seemingly civil conversations around something that is, no matter which way you turn or phrase it, inherently violent in multiple ways to people who don't deserve it and have done nothing but trying to exist in a different place.

No, but if they can make us all have this conversation in, you know, in our respectable avenues of civil discourse, then it becomes a normal thing that we have to talk about. And if we have to talk about it, maybe more people will be convinced by it. Whereas if you relegate this shit to Stormfront, where it belongs, normal people aren't coming into contact with it and becoming convinced by it or tricked into it or mainstreaming it. Yeah.

On October 7th, 2014, Ava tweeted the following. So cool, this timeline of the main accounts pushing the remigration debate on X this year. Proud to be on the list with Alternative for Deutschland, Martin Selner, Elon Musk, Renaud Camus, and Donald Trump. Together, we're pushing the Overton window in real time. So she knows what she's doing.

Oh, 100%.

Not only does she know, she said it. She knows what she's doing, but she's not smart enough to know she shouldn't tell you she knows.

Yeah.

You're not supposed to say, I know all I'm doing is pushing the Overton window. I'm here to throw a brick through the Overton fucking window.

Girl, shut up.

My job is to push you all to the right.

My job is to defenestrate you through the Overton window. Yeah.

I would say that talking about the Overton window, right, and talking about this being a list on Twitter is a perfect illustration of how the alienation that people feel under capitalism has made them so vulnerable to this shit. Because I understand that it is fucking hard for people in Europe as it is here. Existing as a working person is fucking hard. Paying your bills is hard. It's not getting any easier, especially now that petrol slash gas is even more expensive. But because people are increasingly alienated, it's easier and easier to do this scapegoating bullshit. It just happens that we've found someone who's stupid enough to basically say that. But that is the basis of the entire right around the world right now, is blaming the

things that capitalism has done to us on people who have suffered more under capitalism than anyone.

And Elon Musk's ownership of Twitter has made spreading that message so much easier than it would have been otherwise. But he's algorithmically boosting and disseminating this at a scale that's previously unheard of.

Yeah.

For these kinds of ideas.

Especially when you've got so many journalists on Twitter so much. Like that's where they get a sense of the debate.

Get over there. Yeah.

And because these journalists are so used to pulling their stories from just like shit they saw on Twitter.

Yeah.

That they think these ideas must be very popular. We must engage with them. We must write a million fucking stories about these posts we saw on Twitter because they obviously represent a very important discourse for society right now. And they don't. They don't. Stop doing it.

Yeah. Speaking of journalists, please follow me on Blue Sky at Two Sober Possums if you want to criticize my poor attempt at journalism. But yeah, I wanted to take this last bit to highlight some instances of political violence in the Netherlands. All of these incidents happened between late April and now, this year.

Oh my God.

I'm not attributing it to the Safe Europe Act because... The discourse has been toxic for a while now, but I also can say that it has a non-zero effect because maybe I've had my head in the sand for years, but this level of violence is pretty unheard of here.

And it's all part of the same sort of ambient raising of the temperature on this topic. And they know they're contributing to that. So, of course, you can't say they're directly responsible for these attacks. They're not directing them, but they're raising the temperature and they know this contributes to that. Especially, I don't know, a guy who received a large sum of money from Brenton Tarrant shortly before he murdered 51 people in two mosques in New Zealand.

I don't know.

Maybe they know what they're doing.

Anyway. Okay. I'm not going too deeply into these instances because then we'd have, like, we'll add another hour or two to this already long recording session.

Yeah.

I'm also sorry for all the Dutch words because our towns are not named in English words. Yeah. So, the town of Loosdrecht. There was going to be a migrant center there. Severe destruction at the old municipal building, which was used to house them. Doors and windows destroyed near the end of April. In early May, also in Loosdrecht, the same building caught on fire due to torches and heavy fireworks being thrown at it. Jesus. Migrants were inside this building when it caught on fire.

Fuck.

To my knowledge, the harm to people was minimal or non-existent, but still, they threw fireworks and torches to the point that this building caught on fire.

Yeah.

The psychological damage is still very real.

Okay, this is my personal little tangent, but our Prime Minister has not called these things terrorism. Well, by any definition of the word, this is fucking terrorism. Yeah. Like, this is political violence against used to either scare people away or scare people into submission and bypassing the democratic process in the meantime. So also in early May in the town of Engelen, an explosion caused by heavy fireworks destroyed mainly glass windows at a center for underage migrants. Further, houses and carts of either pro-migration citizens, note not activists, just citizens with an opinion, were vandalized with slurs and threats.

one of the cars was stolen and driven into a body of water again this was minor vandalism of the not minor this was a vandalism according to our pm among the targets were people who were not even explicitly in favor of of having this center but simply stated that they had the desire to have like a good faith debate and conversation around it which is reasonable. May 13th, Loosdrecht again. Again, torches and fireworks. The fire department had to come in at that time. Also May 13th, in another town called Apeldoorn, riots for five consecutive days, including abuse of police and security. Later in May, fireworks were thrown through the windows of the municipal building and theater in the town of IJsselstein, the town of Uitgeest at

roughly the same time. A explosive constructed out of fireworks was thrown through the window during a municipal meeting. And this was part of a larger set of violent incidents, again, mainly involving torches and fireworks. June 18th, a pipe bomb was found at a migration center in Nuenen. The explosive ordnance unit had to be called in in order to clean it up. Windows were broken and a small fire broke out. This was the third instance of destruction at this particular building. Not great. I've witnessed some of these people protesting, and I'm using the heaviest air quotes possible there.

It's just fucking hooligans wanting to riot. Racist fucking hooligans as well. The Save Europe Act is not explicitly calling for this.

It doesn't have to.

And they know that.

It's laying the groundwork.

They know it's more effective for them to just raise the temperature and put the implication out there.

Yeah, and then wave their hands in the air and say, oh, I don't know how this happened.

I didn't say that. I never said they should do that. But you know.

No, you didn't give these people a baby kicking class.

There's no proof Hitler called for the industrialized mass murder of the Jews. There's no proof that Hitler explicitly directed for the Holocaust to happen, is there? But he's still responsible for it.

That's what they're going for, right? They're going for like a structuralist approach. To mass violence against migrants, like creating a structure where it takes care of itself.

You create the conditions where it becomes inevitable.

Yeah.

And then you deny responsibility.

You're not giving them the baby kicking class, but you're giving them a bunch of babies and pointing them towards the building where they teach the baby kicking class.

Again, there's a reason it matters so much that he was emailing back and forth with Brent and Tarrant, because they have the exact same ideas about what the problem is. They are just personally going about different versions of the solution. Yeah.

Yeah, that was the most horrifying thing about it. And also, I'm so disappointed in so much media here in the Netherlands that any time they even mention Martin Sellner, the best they can do is that he received that donation. But nothing about, oh, he destroyed evidence of his contact with him. He possibly would have met him. they agreed on stuff while tarrant was radical enough to plan and it's like a fucking massacre it's lazy journalism yeah like i'm sure i make plenty mistakes but i'm also not making my living out of it or claiming that i'm super great at it but yeah you you could at least pretend you're going beyond something as surface level as oh he made a donation okay fair that's it It's like, no,

these guys were ideologically aligned enough to possibly meet.

And that is a very explicit and obvious connection, right? But all these other attacks and these people being burned in buildings, that's the same relationship, just without the exchange of money.

You can only tell people that some people will finally come to kill them unless they come into action. which is not a legal, not provable in the court of law inciting people to do violence.

And I'm not arguing legal liability. I'm not arguing legal liability. I'm just saying there is a moral and ideological culpability here, that there is a visible relationship between these things that exists outside the framework of legal culpability, legal liability here. But there is a relationship between these events, and they know that, and we need to be honest about it.

It's a moral culpability. I hate the facade that they put up. Like, oh, this is all anti-democratic that they cancelled it. And they're just out for us. I hate that I even have to sort of engage on their terms. You don't.

That's the beauty of it, is you don't.

Yeah, yeah, you don't. You don't have to debate these people in there. Like, debate where they don't acknowledge facts.

No, but also. Also broader because they have a platform. They can say things and you can ignore it, but other people who enjoy it will read it.

Right. And I'm not saying ignore it and it will go away. I'm just saying engaging with the existence of these ideas does not mean you have to engage with what they are saying in the way that they want you to. You don't have to engage in a good faith debate with them, with their ideas, with their stated purpose.

You can engage with the idea that you know is underneath of.

But I mean, more in the sense of like engaging with it on a, in the discourse, because other people will pick up on the ideas. And if you want to have trying to have a civil conversation with people who've been influenced by the ideas, then like indirectly, you still have to engage with them. And even that is becoming difficult because they become these two like different realities.

Yeah.

Because they're not interested in having a debate with you. At the risk of reading another long quote, this reminds me of something that I come back to a lot in this particular debate, in this debate of do we have to engage with them? Do we have to debate them? The answer is no. And the question has been answered.

So Sartre wrote an essay in 1946. So in post-war France, Nazis had occupied France and there were a lot of Nazi sympathizers. The essay was called The Anti-Semite and Jew. And this is a passage that I come back to a lot for this particular question. Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly since he believes in words.

The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with their discourse, for by giving ridiculous reasons... They discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith since they seek not to persuade by sound argument, but to intimidate and disconcert. They don't want to debate you. They want to change the terms of what that debate looks like. So don't do it.

Don't do it.

The question is, the question asked and answered.

Yeah.

Like we don't have to engage them on terms of their choosing where they get to define the very like outlines of reality. which, as you said, results in something which is completely distinct from actual reality and it's not worth arguing with someone.

I think the Sartre.

Quote would be a good place to finish up because I think that's probably the most pertinent thing people could take from this. I hope you all are not having to debate this with your families.

Engage with the idea, take the threat seriously, but you don't have to engage with the guy trying to engage with you on a debate. Don't let him set the terms.

Now, I fear I've come off a bit wrong there, but.

I'm not arguing with you. This is, again, like for the listener, because I think this is a place a lot of people find themselves like, well, this guy is wrong. He's saying these things that are incorrect. I should have a factual debate with him.

And that's what he wants.

It's very tempting. And it may feel like the right thing to do, but you can't win. No matter how right you are, no matter how wrong he is, you will not win this debate because that's not the point.

Yeah, I think like it is always worth reinforcing this, like especially with this show, right? We have so many people who are so new to this and like they haven't been doing this for 10, 15, 20 years. And it can seem, oh, let's go on X.com and I'll tell them they're wrong and it'll be fine. But like, yeah, you're playing in the Nazi sandbox and they get to choose like how big the box is and what the sand looks like.

It's not going to go well for you.

And they want to have that argument with you because the louder the argument is, the more people will hear it and the more people will be exposed to the unserious shit that they are saying.

Yeah, it dignifies them with a response.

It makes it look like something worth arguing about.

It's playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon will strut around on the board, knock over the pieces, take a big shit on the board and strut around like it's victorious.

And now the headline is, pigeon plays chess. Isn't that impressive? The pigeon, even if he didn't win, isn't it amazing that he played?

I'm going to find a nice void to scream in for a good minute.

Yeah.

Okay. Dr. James Stout, anything you want to plug?

Dr.

Stout? Dr. Stout, yes.

Yeah.

Having chat on dissertations.

Molly, you have a show where we could learn more about Nazis and the stupid shit they go after, wouldn't you?

Oh, my gosh. Actually, the reason I'm so passionate about not arguing with these people on their terms is because I've been writing a lot about race science and eugenics lately. And so this sort of Trojan horsing this argument into the discourse in bad faith is something I'm very mad about this week because I just read a bunch of books about race science. So if you want to hear about that.

Yeah.

Hear the fruit of that frustration, you can listen to Weird Little Guys wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah. I have a podcast called Natural Causes where unfortunately I have made Four episodes, and I have already had to confront the scope of the fucking Neo-Rhodesians.

They're everywhere.

Yeah, well, the Washington State National Guard responding to the little giant fire specifically, I guess.

For a country that never existed, wasn't very big, and only pretended to exist for a couple of years?

Yeah.

If you're looking at Nazi shit, they just keep coming back.

Yeah.

Also, if you're responding to a large fire and you're thinking, which white nationalist flag should I take?

That is probably the least appropriate, right? Like, if we consider how Rhodesia ended.

What would you say.

Would be the most appropriate white nationalist flag?

One of the, surely one of the repurposed Viking ones because they love to fire, right?

Like if I was going that route. Good answer, good answer. Yeah, thank you. I think about this a lot.

Yeah, if you work for the Seattle Times, you can listen to my podcast, deal my story and not attribute it. If you're anyone else, yeah, you can listen to my podcast and hear about how going outside is political.

I don't have any other podcasts. Um, I tried to keep my mental health somewhat intact.

What a way to live. I'm so happy for you.

Insofar as that's possible.

Sick burn on us, James.

Yeah. Owned again. I just have a much less tolerance for this than you guys. You're much better at it.

It's broken us.

So if you want to contact me for some reason, it's now on Blue Sky at Two Sober Possums. For the love of God, don't ask me for feed pics. I will not send them. And confront fascists in a peaceful way when they gather i suppose yeah it could happen here is a production of cool zone media for more podcasts from cool zone media visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts you can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions thanks for listening

The Save Europe Act and the Bad Faith Nazis Who Created It Part 2

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