#839 - Ami Ayalon (Ex-Chef des israelischen Inlandsgeheimdienstes Shin Bet)

0:00 your people expect from you to kill the enemies. So, the enemies whether they like it or not are becoming a military target and I'm not proud of that. i killed many people in many ways. um...I knew nothing about them personally..i didn't know their names , i did'nt know their families their wives ..their children with whom they pray.

0:26 ...the mosque. You didnt need it! A military commander. All I ask is how? How to kill? and we have been fighting so many years. And What happened to us, it's horrible Because if you asked me in this way i understand our war. We want the world and very few still recognize our victory. and I'll say again although Many people believe that I'm a traitor If I were Palestinians...I would fight against the Israeli occupation.

1:06 I will never accept the Hamas ideas, but against the occupation in order to achieve my freedom. and i would add that every statement is very statement And Every military commander who give you a different answer. He's either stupid or he just do not know his enemy and he will never win this war. All right, new episode of Young & Naive.

1:45 I have a new guest. who are you? Well it's your very interesting question i'm asking myself every day Who am I? My name is Amir Erdogan. I was born in the Jordan Valley which is on other side of Israel And as a child Syrians were up above And we used to spend many days in shelters, but it was okay because We knew exactly what for?

2:18 build the state of Israel and You were born in forty five. Yeah I was born in Forty-five. My parents came from Europe during a British mandate as legal immigrant my father my mother child to study in Jerusalem and when I was eighteen years old, I joined the military in my case a naval commando. The idea is to do it for three or four year but i found myself leaving the navy after a military career of about thirty five years as commander of the Israeli Navy.

2:59 uh...I fought too many wars ,too many battles, too many operations.. Too Many! Too many friends. And the idea was to join, you know... ...the business community. But it was immediately about one month after the assassination of our Prime Minister Itzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres who is a prime minister then asked me to replace the director of the Israeli Shin Bet who retired as result of the assassination.

3:35 I couldn't refuse. Why? Because I don't know, since the War of Attrition... ...I find myself in shoes from my father who cared. He never could separate his personal life and his collective or way he saw as a future security of Israel. I remember that when he was very old, He came in... ...Thirty-eight.

4:10 And uh..when he was ninety years old before he died i used to ask him every day by phone how do you feel? and his house is built on the shore of lake Lake of Galilee. On other side of the lake he just sees a Hormone mountain. But what he care about? it's level of sea The level of the lakes. Well because this This was it.

4:39 Was the only source of sweet water for Israel. So he said well How do I feel? He said, ah not very well and I knew that It's not him its a level of the lake And he couldn't separate between the level of The Lake and you know in the state-of-the-nation. I don't know Anyhow. so i could refuse because I felt at.

5:06 you know Its my responsibility. I'm saying it because exactly one year before, after finishing almost more than three years as a commander of the Navy, Rabin called me and asked to replace the director of the Shin Bet. And I refused! And...I was lucky enough that he didn't ask why. Personally i know exactly why.

5:40 You know when you are there is a navy or in the military. The reality it's very, very clear. It's simple simplistic. All the colors are blue white and black. Good guys friend enemy right good guy bad guys. And all what we have to do is to kill the bad guys and to defend the good guys. and in the shin bet which is internal security All the colors are gray.

6:08 You know, it's you have to try To see a potential enemy among your citizens Which for me was Against all white I used to believe in. and um, you know, you have two follows them. you have too some time to listen to them And we'll have to Anyhow. so uh i said no but after he were assassinated Um II couldn't refuse because I think that it was the moment in which understood, That i'm living a place where I didn't really know before.

6:47 The Israeli society and ideas of Jewish-Israeli citizens will assassinate our prime minister on who we are And what have come to be here? as a people. This was the debate and you know, we say okay Eagle Amir he was an assassin who were terrorists but we have to understand that hundreds of thousands supported him.

7:30 even today It's after Oslo Accord right? Yeah it is on the reason because Rabin choose to try negotiate to achieve agreement between us and to put an end to this war. And there are too many people that used to believe, This is a holy place It was given by God. We do not have the right to betray God in their country etc.

8:09 So yes I felt it. I don't have the right to say no. So, I did it for four and a half years that...I'm still trying to explain who am i? And I will finish by saying as way understand myself in this way understand Israeli society is there. people are living around us Middle East of world the way I understood myself during my childhood.

8:50 So yes, okay today... You retired? Yes! I retired several times by the way from The Navy ,from the Shin Bet and some business organizations that are led. You went to politics right? Yeah i tried politics .I was a lousy politician Because when you are elected and cannot change the reality according to what you believe in, there is no reason for it.

9:27 It took me about four years to understand that I just didn't listen to my wife. She told from very beginning You don´t fit. Podcasts must not be financed by aggressive advertising. Young Naiv is the best proof of this, so that it remains financially supported for us. Thank you very much. and now we move on!

10:13 It's a health system, education science security whatever or he is taking the same decision in order to be elected. To convince his base. and those who survive. are people giving up on their dreams too many times? forget why they enter politics. We blame them but we shouldn't political system in which They are not elected every four or five years.

10:50 they're elected everyday because the revolution media communication polling net networks with a globalization change the world and And the power The political power is Not in their hands Because I have to be elected anyway. Every day, they ask you and me Where do you want us to lead? When, where do we want me to lead you?

11:19 Poles. Shouldn't it be the other way around like... It was during the nineteenth century you know Klausowicz etc., etc. We don't understand that. change these two revolutions or media is a way of understanding reality The ways in which we get and digest And we store and remind the information. Created a major change on everything, our economy, our security... The way that we fight.

11:59 by the way you will ask later about war. Everything is different. So not to blame ourselves but take responsibility. We should shift from language of blame Blaming everybody. We blame Palestinians, we blame our Prime Minister... ...we blame our Parliament members. No! It's to a language of responsibility.

12:23 Language for responsibility starts with totally different question What can I do about it? what did i do About it? and then To try to understand the other side etc. Anyhow introspection. So yes Yes I think that we lack, as a community in many places but i'm speaking as an Israeli. We do not want and refuse to see us from outside which means To see And try understand our enemies or the people who Do not agree with.

13:11 And again, this is a language of blame. We blame Palestinians we blamed the international community... ...we blame everybody who do not agree to what they are doing and we don't give ourselves any answer because we do not ask. What can we or did we do in order for him see us as he sees? Before we dive into it tell us real quickly Where are we?

13:44 We're sitting now in my... not mine, but it belongs to my family. Olive Grove This tree behind us. One of the professors told me that he's between around six hundred years old and It is very important because I know That i didn't plant this tree when it was blended. It was during the Mamaluk and later Ottoman Empire, And in a way give you some perspective who we are?

14:29 What is our role? A friend of mine told me he deals with olive trees. Now, we have to remember all of us are here in order make sure that these trees... ...that we did not plant will survive and live after. These three is still giving fruits And they produce olive oil from a tree which is more or less six hundred years old.

15:04 So We're Here In The South Oricaman Mountain. This Are The Hills Of The Mountain which is up to the north and yeah it's a village, agricultural village. And you know this place... You didn't grow here? No I was born in Jordan Valley and um i left the kibbutz. because In the kibbutz, they decide for you what to do.

15:51 Because this is a voice of majority. it's total type democracy. I don't know. equal rights everybody has equal right and we decided then that i see myself as going on serving. It was after the Six Day War. I decided, and the whole security of our small country we felt on our shoulders. it's a war of attrition And many people from the unit died.

16:30 Many were wounded When they said okay i'm not going to ask anybody...I am just gonna leave the kibbutz. So I left the KibbutZ. Then I fell in love with my wife today about fifty-five years ago. And we left to her kibbutz, but later after finishing my first degree in the university still in The Navy We decided that we want our children to sleep with us which was not what they did because I wasn't a navy and came back only during the night and I couldn't see my son whole week.

17:20 Where did your kids stay? In kindergarten, all of them. yes it's... Every night! Of course every night everyday. well i used to meet my parents one or two hours a day. yeah we didn't need it. you know if you ask me i had great childhood. really this is way. understand my childhood Only as a father, I tried to understand.

17:50 I think that I needed it as the father not as child. but this is why I understood. and if... If i'm not ok then its because of kibbutz or something happened on my way. Anyhow so.. And I was just nominated as the commander here. Not far from you. So we were looking for a very cheap place. It was cheap then, before the withdrawal from Sinai when prices went up at the end of seventies.

18:24 Yes it was there seventy nine seventy-nine years. so this was probably only places that we could buy. today you have to be a million in order to buy but We are lucky. Um...it wasn't. You know business wisdom or something like these. And that's it, so I came and all my children are living here. One of them is not far from me in the small kibbutz fifteen minutes away From there... I have five granddaughters and four grandsons All of them somewhere around.

19:09 So you were a soldier for decades right? A sailor, I don't know it's... You were in the marines. Yeah i was in the marine, he is an aviace. Why would you get a sailor? why were you promoted so much? Why did they promote you? Ah ok well..you have to ask them! You never figured that out? Well yeah I tried.

19:36 or if you asked me ,I was good enough but I am not here to praise myself. You were a good leader? I have no idea, yeah...I want to believe that i did something good and i did the right way but again i'm not here to answer this very important question. uh..i was decorated twice because in a very, very complicated operations.

20:17 One is the Green Island et cetera if we don't have time to explain. but okay it was... We lost out of about thirty-five people who raided this island and it was forty five castle something like that. there's British built on North part the entrance to the Suez Canal from south. The idea was to defend the southern entrance, and there were about one hundred twenty Egyptians among them about eighty commando warriors and various operators of machine guns anti-aircraft etc.

21:16 and we have to conquer this island. The only way to reach the island was by diving, so it was during night time that I had to dive then climb on there etc... I was wounded! We lost six of our warriors out about thirty or thirty-five people. Anyhow, it was one of the again too many operations that I took part.

21:56 and But the question was why? I joined the Navy. It Was stupid you know. I remember. but what I would ask a question when I volunteered And I Said what do mean? II was born You Know on the lake of the sea as they were laughing. where we see this is in Lake of Galilee. so And I said, well for me it was a major huge sea.

22:23 So only when I joined the Navy I understood that you know. okay they used to say in Italian they use to sail my narrow delacqua dolce which is I don't know sailors of sweet water anyhow. so took me awhile to understand but yes um i loved uh the sea and the storms that the sea creates for every sailor and in command of a missile boat or a missile boats squadron, to dive again.

23:07 I loved life on the sea. after several years It was not an adventure anymore, but it was a kind of responsibility. A duty again because in a way I think that since the Six Day War we all of us in the naval commando, in the navy and Israel We have been fighting almost every day probably longest war of the modern history.

23:58 If you ask me, we are fighting our war for over one hundred and forty years since concept of Zionism was created. in end of the nineteenth century We used to say okay first Zionist immigrant, nineteen eighty-one eighty two Some people will tell even earlier And since the first day we have enemies who do not accept our right to declare ourselves as a nation.

24:39 They used to say Judaism is religion, it's not state and not a nation... ...and that we don't have the rights to declare usselfs in this country. And therefore states and organizations. And we have been fighting since then until we created the state of Israel and later in order to defend The State Of Israel.

25:08 We've been fighting so many years, what happened with us is horrible because if you ask me this way I understand our war...we want a war! ...and refuse to recognize victory. You mean creation? No believe in the creation of state. When I say we want a war, because finally why or what for? We fought! In order to create and later defend the State of Israel as Jewish democracy.

25:52 And we won this war in two thousand oh-two in Beirut. This was declaration. You know, I'm not sure that the audience understands you when i say The three nodes of Khartoum. Okay? Three nodes after the six-day war in which Israel Defeated! The Syrian, Egyptian and Jordanian armies. In six days it was.

26:22 They suffered a humiliating defeat. And all the Arab League members. they go to Khartoun And there are three nodes of Hartoom. No to recognition, no to negotiation and not peace with Israel. Israel is a legitimate entity. We went on fighting but in the year two thousand two the world was changing. It's too complicated But they unite all the Arab League members In Beirut after the beginning of Oslo and it was after, you know in veil of Iraq.

27:12 first Iraq war second Iraq War etc. And they understand that their reality is different. They change this we knows to three s Yes To recognition yes to negotiation and yes to peace with Israel on The condition that Israel will accept All the Security Council resolutions and UN resolutions, which we did but We refused to see it.

27:46 no government in Israel. No Government in Israel Discussed The RAPC initiative that was agreed In two thousand or two And we are going on fighting? If you ask me The war that were fighting today is not a just war. our world was just Until, two thousand and two two. Once they recognize the reason why we fought for The war that we are fighting today is not a just war And I'm Not sure all Israelis will agree with me.

28:31 but frankly speaking We're fighting in order to expand our Eastern border To deny option of Palestinians to declare themselves as a nation and to have their own state side by side on the other side of the border. And we know Palestinians, but do not see them as a people who deserve a State of Their Own.

29:03 Sounds like Arabs didn't want to see a Jewish State? Exactly! But if you don't see it then refuse to see it. Well, it's. I'm not a philosopher and not historian but the way okay. Do we understand that? It's too difficult for us. Look i'm trying to. I never asked my parents What they're what was their concept of dynamism?

29:42 well, I was a child I couldn't care less I didn't have questions. Everything goes clear. We had to build this state. The Jewish people is in a great danger. They understood it before the Holocaust. Older parents stayed in Europe and were assassins there. I am generation without grandparents, i didn't see any old person until my parents became old.

30:19 And...I'm saying this because if would ask We have to build a state for the Jew people which is in great danger and The State will be wherever it's a state of Israel because this was the place In which? The People of Israel were born, they promised land And It Will Be Wherever we Can Build A Settlement Walk The Land and Defend Ourselves.

30:53 So There Two Pillars Were Settlements and Security. After The Six Day War Nothing Was Changed You know, we still have to fight because nobody recognized us etc. I stayed in the security of the Navy. The idea was go back after four years But i realized that I don't have a right To leave the naval commando Because there is war And you cannot...you dont' have the moral rights.

31:28 Go and work for yourself or Yara to live great life. And I'm saying it because for us, It was a dream. We didn't see Palestinians. they were living here but the eye. as a child we...I didn't sees them Because it was a Dream! We are going to create something new. and it's something very difficult to explain.

32:05 okay that i hear about..we don't seism We don't count them. And I'm saying it because in retrospect, It was a dream. and you ask me why is so difficult? Because the awakening process The reality Is not as your dream. Suddenly you see that Palestinians are here suddenly understand That this land is yours But it's only ours.

32:39 They're living here For hundreds of years, you know I have a very good Palestinian friend. I met him when we ran an initiative trying to explain... After I left the Shin Bet and I left before the politics. after I left for the Shin bet To run an initiative to explain that we can achieve agreement Because Palestinians are human beings and they want a better life.

33:16 And I remember when, you know... When I met Professor Moseyba. he was the president of the largest Palestinian university which is Al-Quds University in Jerusalem. I'm going to meet him on Saturday? Ah great! We're gonna talk. Very good. Send me my regards it's okay? He mentioned Me In his book and i mentioned Him In My Book Anyhow You don't have to read these two books anyhow.

33:49 And you realize that, ah okay the first question is he asked me? No I ask him oh sorry yeah... He asks me first where are you came from? so i said ok my parents come from Europe etc. and no your family tree My family tree was erased during the Holocaust. I don't have a family tree, but we are going to create a great future.

34:20 We had passed A great past The Bible and history of Fortaleza But this is not my...I didn't have any family tree. When they asked me why did you use your family tree? And he said that my family tree started in Jerusalem During the seventh century during the time of Muhammad, and you know that Christians with all their respect they are fighting each other almost as much we do on who owns The Holy Church in Jerusalem.

34:52 And they need a non-Christian to keep three of the holy church. The Saba family is a family which keeps for hundreds years. ask him about it. And you know, yeah so I'm saying because can i tell him listen this is mine not yours? So the idea that you have to divide these pieces of land my mother after six days were...I told her she came to study in Jerusalem and every weekend during their late thirties they used Keverachel, it's one of the Jewish mothers is buried there.

35:48 And then they used to walk which was a long walk by way... ...to the wailing wall and from time-to-time they use to drive to Herbron, Ma'arata Machpela, which is Abraham boat etc., So she told me, okay I want you to rent a car and take me to Beit Lechem etc. These are the places that we learn during our childhood Jerusalem, Beit Lechem, Hebron Jericho.

36:23 these are places. this is our history. so awakening process. it's very difficult. This my explanation. This is one. The second, I think that as a society we do not trust anybody. it's not mentioned in our security doctrine. but if you ask me...we don't trust this. what will learn from history? We never had...you know..we fought in these areas.

37:06 historians tell us between six to Seven hundred wars in the history of this area, this region Israel Palestine whatever you call it. Many of them were worse. It's that we when we were here. We fought In none off our walls. We will not. we are NOT a member of a coalition. That's it. We and You know I remember they're doing the Sinai war my father said Well, in a moment of truth nobody will be there for us.

37:47 This is what we learned from our history. If you ask people why don't... Why do not have confidence? In anybody! Why are they afraid? Some people start the story with ruins at the second temple and then stop during their Spanish physician And go to programs where everybody stops in the holocaust. and what we learned is a moment of truth.

38:24 when we are fighting for our existence nobody will be there for us. The idea that only God etc. everybody it's religious people who tell you, god saved us! And every...you know? You know what is Pesach? okay if I say as an audience no one is Peshach Seder. No, nobody understands. Okay every year we remind ourselves the times that were slaves in Egypt and the road from slavery to freedom took us forty years into this desert.

39:11 This is a holy Bible And the story is based on an idea that only God was there for us. Now my parents, you know they left religion and changed but finally in Israel. today this is a story we are telling our children That only we... A secular person will tell you We did it alone. The religious person will say to you There was god for us etc.

39:51 What about the Americans and Germans? They are very close allies of Israel. You guys don't trust them either? Yeah, you're too rational. It's a rational question. Yes Sometimes we pay huge price Because they do not trust. If he will ask me about recent war or if what I see today in Gaza and Lebanon This is exactly the price that we are paying.

40:23 We do not believe in political agreements, we don't understand a simple concept... ...that every war must end. It's a historical truth! Not quite. I gave you an example of our war and still fighting. it was the longest war on modern history. I don't know, nineteen eighty and still lost many operations.

40:58 Many military campaigns...many battles. but this is only one war for the creation as a defense in the survival of the Israeli state. This way we see it Is also about making Israel bigger? Extending the borders to Lebanon. This is a way I understand, because it's as result of we understand reality in Middle East.

41:38 Is that not danger over expansion? When you keep fighting and... This exactly what is happening When I said if we shall not change our policy? first of all you have to understand that when you say Israel It's it's a false term. There are more than one israel there is the Israeli government and There is Israeli people most as easily.

42:11 people Do not support this government. You see it in all the polls And most of the Israeli people do not support the policy of this government. But still deep down, especially after the seventh of October... We did not mention the seventh of October because it's an event that shaped Not only the Middle East and was in a way The beginning or the reason to the war of last three years, it changed... ...the way we see ourselves and how we see our enemies.

43:02 The way that we understand the neighbors. And also the ways in which we used to understand friends. It was a massacre! I used to think The way of thinking was the Muslim Brotherhood. I tried to do everything in order to learn Everything about it when i wasn't director of the Jewish Embed. But,the level Of Cruelty and the massacre And raping women and slaughtering children.

43:45 This is not the Muslim brotherhood this is ISIS. probably even worse twelve hundred people, majority of them civilians dancing and trying to celebrate their life. Eight hundred people only minority are soldiers that arrived today. this was a major-major collapse off our security doctrine but this is another question.

44:22 I'm saying it because in order to explain or try and understand our behavior today. On one hand, we do not support the government. on other hand most Israelis...I totally disagree but most Israelis believe that there are no innocent people among Palestinians And they have a right to kill all of them.

44:49 I mean international experts, Israeli NGOs. The most other countries call what has happened since October seventh in Gaza a genocide right now? No it's not that. no... A genocide is an illegal term. A genocide means you have the intention to erase this race To erase Palestinians from Earth. This isn't another genocide.

45:21 I'm not going to defend it, i am ashamed of what we did in Gaza. It's a war crime but its not genocide. so if terms... If the language is important yes The language is importance the worst kind of military operation I've seen. No, come on! I'm too young... Okay you are too young. You know how many civilians not military targets The allies How many Germans they killed?

46:01 In Dresden, in... I mean Israeli wars. Yes to get perspective you have to understand the concept of war which people that did not spend a day is a battlefield will never understand. A battlefield is place where we had right to kill. We were born all of us With the concept, you will not kill. You do not have a right to kill and then... ...you join your army And people tell me that they had to kill all their enemies.

46:49 Now the enemy is no state. They are not soldiers! They look like civilians. He's a pharmacist during day time and he's a terrorist during night. So we meet him in the middle of the day In the battlefield. Will you shoot him or not? No one will give an answer, no-one. So the question is what can we do?

47:19 and in this case The war after the seventh of October was a just war. it was A Just War because It Was After A Massacre That No One Can Imagine And The Idea Of This massacre Was To Kill Civilians And Children and women, to rape them. So it was a just war for the first twelve months. It's not only because of the response to a barbaric attack but also because you have to understand we fought an enemy.

48:02 that he is military doctrine We saw this in his website To bring the Israeli soldiers into the middle of cities to make sure that they will kill as many Palestinians, civilians. As possible and then the world will support the Palestinian cause. so they used intentionally. this was a doctrine. their people has human shield.

48:32 This is what the doctrine now when you send your people toward there's no way to avoid killing of thousands, it was the most dense battlefield ever fought. I don't know specific cases during World War II in Stalingrad or wherever but this is war. now you have to understand. Hamas built the largest shelter on earth hundreds of tunnels.

49:09 there's no entry. civilian Palestinians, only Hamas activists. They could save thousands of Palestinians by just letting them go in. they didn't. so Just a moment We were at the tunnels. Sorry? we stopped at the tunnel. Yes So this was your result. But after twenty four months. No, you said after twelve months the just okay.

49:53 After twelve months I mean in in twenty-twenty four. yes The end of twenty for when they military commanders came to the government and said there is nothing that we can achieve more by the use of military power. And this is a time To try to start to negotiate. well good so but the governor defuse. Was it in Netanyahu's and other ministers' interest to keep the war going?

50:27 Exactly. Our government today is a government that at moment they will achieve political agreement, They would not be elected... ...they need more in order to provide power. This isn't democracy anymore. If you really want to understand You have go back And to read George Orwell. Animal Farm? Not animal farm, there is a much better...

51:02 ...in nineteen eighty-four. Oh yes! Yes. Right okay this is relevant in order make sure you will understand the power of the external enemy for totalitarian regime To hold in power. This is what we see in Israel today. It's the only way to explain... ...the policy of our government, you know? When ministers used to tell us for years that Hamas is an asset they said We are financing Hamas To make sure that Hamass will survive in power.

51:45 Because Hamas as long as Hamas Is a Palestinian Government in Gaza and they are fighting or they're trying to decrease the political power of the Palestinian Authority so that we can fight each other. This is divided in control, yes! So we don't have to negotiate. We can say it ourselves And if you say this word there's no one to negotiate with... ...this was an idea...

52:21 ...and these were ideas which brought us on the seventh of October. So as long if we shall not change our policy and We are still a democracy. We do not execute We don't shoot our leaders, but we have elections in three four months. Yes Tyler here come the verbo for themselves. Commerz Freier Journalismus since two thousand thirteen just possible through your support.

52:53 look at the info swing. It looks like BB's coalition could actually be reelected. No, the coalition will not be re-elected but there is a political scenario in which again we cannot go to explain all our problems as society. Netanyahu government can't be elected But There's possibility that no other elected party We'll be able to create a coalition because of the refusal To join their Arabs who are twenty.

53:38 we have twenty percent Of Israeli Arabs as israeli citizens And especially after the sevens of October they became a potential enemy Because there are Arabs most of them are Muslims. So it's crazy political situation and Netanyahu will not be elected, but if Well, I'm not sure in anything but... I talked to some Israeli political expert last couple of days and they're afraid that he could actually pull it off again.

54:15 Because like the opposition is you know? First of all its good if we are afraid because It will make sure They go vote. Last time In all elections The percentage of our people were much lower. The percentages are the votes, there's two people who went to vote. so at least we hope that today all the people do not want see this government will go to vote and in politics nothing or you know only God knows what would be results.

55:03 but the way, you know a rational analysis of all the polls is Netanyahu will not be able to create a coalition. But it's very realistic scenario that no one else would be able. so he'll go on as Prime Minister in a temporary and he can, you know go on by one year or two years every three four months which are etc.

55:37 So yes It will be a major problem. But again what I'm saying? that it is our duty to do everything In order to replace our government. this is democracy And if we will not be able to do so probably We don't deserve it. I learned today like Seventy-five percent of Palestinian Israelis don't go to vote.

56:02 No, how can you like? How can they be motivated to go? I Don't know these figures. They are. I think that there's a. Was it at the last election? okay no It's not sure. but anyhow i think that less than fifty percent But not twenty five per anyhow. Well, in a way they gave up on democracy. They say okay if you don't want us In any coalition so why should we go to vote?

56:38 Because If We are not sitting in the coalition system... ...in which Israeli political systems is built On Which You cannot really create an impact or influence if your not member of the coalition. So yes, many of them are saying yeah we don't have. they gave up on the democracy. On this system which is disaster and I Have many Palestinian friends Israeli Palestinians And We Are trying to do everything but again until now?

57:20 We were not successful. This Is Not The Only only battle that we lost. So, yes it's a great challenge for any democracy. by the way... We have to remind ourselves. you know where are dealing with Israeli democracy who is collapsing inside? We're fighting each other but all the liberal democracies worldwide are facing I'm sure that you see it in Germany, France and Europe.

58:01 Israel is a specific case because in addition to the changes revolutions media etc., And demographic change as result of globalization creates this domestic conflict everywhere The ongoing war in Israel. You know, medicine. when he presented the American Constitution to the American people He said a democracy will not survive an ongoing war and...he was right.

58:40 And what we see today is a miracle! The question is not why Israel is collapsing as a democracy? Why it took us so long to survive as a democracy for good or for bad? For more than Seventy-five years, or more then one hundred and forty years as a Democrat society in other democratic state is the miracle if People believe in miracles.

59:15 but anyhow I do okay like we have two Yes with a few topics about what? one question regarding Israeli democracy, I have the feeling that at least some of the leading politicians in Israel don't care if there's an Israeli democracy. That they maybe don't mind turning Israel into autocracy you know? Some kind of a theocracy when i look.

59:47 Yes, first of all... Some kind of dictatorship. You know democracy? Right. well its coalition system is very strange and not a perfect system. We have a coalition system No but it's you have. First of all we've got the constitution And today The parliament has been controlled by the government. You cannot pass any law without support of coalition.

1:00:26 and since Prime Minister has a right to fire every minister, so in way prime minister have power over parliament. Parliament is not autonomous entity anymore In Israel And legal system gatekeeper. They are doing everything in order to destroy the legal system and anyways they're doing it day by day, you see every day!

1:01:05 The question is what should be done? Again we have a right, responsibility or duty. In certain cases we have the duty to refuse To any order because in some cases The law is not a legitimate law If, the government Is doing it against its own people? Because this whole concept of democracy and civil disobedience Was created I don't know during the Eighteenth century.

1:01:52 Well Nineteenth century, yes. Against the slavery in America. Yes Israel is not a perfect democracy and if we shall not change our policy In the West Bank, in Judea and Samaria Is apartheid? Israel isn't apart at state yet But in the west bank It's reality of apartheids When there are two different Low systems against Palestinians.

1:02:26 That's it. so nobody Nobody can tell you that he is still a democracy. and And I personally don't think that Israel today Is a liberal democracy as the state? and It depends on us, which means at The government became part of the problem. The parliament became part of the problem. The legal system will not save us from ourselves.

1:03:07 and yeah, it is for us. And if you ask me we didn't speak on what? We expect from the international community? I was gonna end with that question. so okay. So let's end with this question Because yeah sorry have a question regarding the justice systems since you mentioned You're the successor at Shin Bet, not your immediate success but head of the Shin bet now.

1:03:38 David Zini He hates Israel, Israeli justice system. I read like there were some remarks... No no i don't want to discuss. you know. uh..I was against his nomination and applied for Supreme Court. Like many consider him like a Jewish extremist. I don't want to discuss specific personalities, this is the result of policy.

1:04:11 he was elected by prime minister and understand Prime Minister you know he choose only people that believe will follow his orders not because he's professional activity or because anyhow this is the only reason to choose The gatekeepers for the prime minister whether it will be his ministers Whether if you have influence on the judges in Supreme Court.

1:04:52 And specifically, you know, director of the Israeli Shin Bet is a gatekeeper. So he was not elected because his great professional career... He's loyal to Bibi? Yes this way I understand him but i don't want to discuss it anymore. anyhow You're just telling my audience cause they haven't heard off His name that there are lot of protest against.

1:05:22 You know, Zini I read a quote. like somebody said it's making Al Capone the chief of police in Chicago. Okay look i think that It is different kind head-of-chin bed than when you were. In order to follow the law. You have to understand that the director of Israel, Shin Bet is leaving every day with an attention.

1:05:56 On one hand he's under... He has to report it as a prime minister. The Prime Minister is the minister responsible for the Shin Bet. on other hands his responsibility and his duty Is to preserve Israeli democracy system. So when the director of the Shin Bet finds himself in a situation, and this is a situation with our prime minister that he demands from him something it's against the whole concept of liberal democracy.

1:06:46 What shall we do? A person who does not understand that he is living in a conflicting values. And his responsibility for the democratic system and democracy of the state of Israel, it's beyond his obedience to the prime minister? I don't think. Yes. The law of the Shin Bet. I used to understand your former job as... ...the head of Shin Bet is first and foremost loyal to Israeli democracy Exactly And not loyal to the Israeli Prime Minister.

1:07:35 This is a law. There's a Law Of The Shin Bet. It Is Written In The Law That He Has To Report To The Government, And To The Prime Minister. But His Duty Is To Preserve The Israeli Democracy The System. So, we used to say it in a very simplistic way. The kingdom comes before the king. This is how you explain this To people who do not understand the complexity of what's legal system government etc.

1:08:12 We are here in order to preserve the Kingdom and not obey the King. Have ever thought about What would be like to be Palestinian? to be on the other side, yeah. To-to be depressed uh... to be under occupation? Yes I'm thinking about it. um every day by the way is a first time when i people ask me what did you learn in there In the Shin Bet.

1:08:43 Uh..I can speak about it for I don't know two years. but There are two very simple lessons and don't laugh as The first lesson was that my enemies are human beings. I remember, when i came to discuss this with my wife and she said Are you crazy? Of course they're human being! You don't understand... When your a military commander Your people expect from you To kill the enemy.

1:09:22 So whether or not the enemy is becoming a military target proud of it. I killed many people in many ways, um...I knew nothing about them personally! i didn't know their names..i did not know the families or why they're children with whom they pray and mosque. you needn't needed a military commander. all we ask is how?

1:09:50 How to kill using knife or Kretschnikov or machine gun or a missile that you shoot. uh two idonno one hundred kilometers. But you know that people will die. You don't care because they are the enemy. The question is how? Technology, strategy and tactics? When we come to Israel or to the Shin Bet... ...the question is totally different!

1:10:20 You have to ask yourself why Why do I am doing it?! You need to understand every person In order to understand them..you must know everything about him. Otherwise you cannot interrogate him You don't know what to ask him. You cannot try to achieve information from Him, you can not try...to recruit Him as an agent!

1:10:46 You have to know everything. first of all His names. Muslims they had four names Tells us something about their family where it came From his children To which school he sent the children? To schools of Hamas or to schools off the Palestinian Authority? Totally different. Palestinian's authority are looking for a compromise to states Hamas is the real enemy he want To eliminate, He do not agree with our existence.

1:11:24 So when person decide which school it means you tell something about his ideology? so hes becoming human being. You're not afraid of him. This first lesson Second Lesson Which Is not far from the first. We Israelis, we shall have security only if and when Palestinians will have hope. Hope is everything!

1:11:58 So people ask me are you crazy? I said no let me translate it to a military terms...we speak military language. You cannot deter a person or group of people If they are not afraid because if he is not afraid, He will commit suicide. Nothing to lose? If he has nothing to loose you cannot take from him anything.

1:12:30 You can't threaten Him. So people tell me ok no don't understand Islam or something like that. and I said go back to the Bible. You read the bible No...you know the story of Samson & Delilah ? Okay, they know. By the way there is a great song about anyhow. so He was A Jewish hero. he killed Plishtim Anyhow people who in our history but it fell in love in In a Palestinian women woman and she betrayed him And you were arrested?

1:13:19 They tortured him, and he decided to kill as many enemies. And he killed thousands of enemies when he was a very powerful person so that they destroyed the whole building in order for them not to laugh at him because... Anyway this is his story! The first suicide attack In the written human history is in the Bible.

1:13:57 By the way, you should read The Bible. It's a planner and one day okay? Well very good. so by the way when I became the director of Shin Bet I had to not only to read to learn something about the Quran And and to learn some thing about there the New Testament Christians. because finally what I learned in the Shin Bet is that ideology, it's something we need.

1:14:32 In order to understand. you know reality but extreme ideologies create violence and this why the shin bet has to study every ideology before becoming violent which is terror. So yes, I told them okay it is not Muslims invented the suicide attack. It's a human behavior A person who has nothing to lose.

1:15:10 He will do everything he will commit you will kill everybody in order to achieve something. Sometimes if his bread for each child and sometimes its freedom? You just want To feel free. so this are two lessons. So if you ask me, yes I asked myself every time how does the Palestinian feel? And by the way i believe that in too many wars and trying to understand our war.

1:15:41 Trying to understand why America entered into this world My answer is very simple not america nor we understood our enemies. The idea Iranian regime will surrender is crazy idea. anybody who understands the enemy? everybody Who knows something about? The history of the Shia and the Karbala battle in the seventh century six hundred and eighty Will tell you that they will not surrender.

1:16:26 Because if you don't, you know so true. You don't know him Chinese right You don't know the Bible and you know Sun Tzu, okay? I was born in East Germany. There were like anti-religions... I will read it someday both Bibles. So Sun Tsu about four thousand years he said if you do not know the enemy you'll never be able to win.

1:17:03 And we don't know, and understand our enemies. By the way he said something which is very relevant to how I understood my government. He said a cruel leader will burn his country in order to rule the ashes. So anyway this explains sometimes in history Nehron you know in Roman too many years in power.

1:17:36 If like Louis XIV, let us say yes sometimes you believe that... You are the state! You ARE THE KINGDOM and this can explain the behavior of authoritarian regimes. Just understand it correctly. If you ever thought about being Palestinian and fighting the occupation. Like if you had nothing to lose, You would fight?

1:18:16 I said it again and again And i'll say it again Although many people believe that Im a traitor Um...if were Palestinians..I'd fight against The Israeli occupation. I will never accept Hamas ideas but against the occupation in order to achieve my freedom. And I will add that every statement, Israeli statement and every military commander who will give you a different answer he is either stupid or it just do not know his enemy.

1:19:11 The only way to win this war is To understand that we want this world. I'm repeating myself We won't this war because our enemies surrendered in Beirut In two thousand or two and if we shall not accept it, which will bring ourselves through the end of Zionist dream Israel Will Not be a democracy Because If Our border will be on the Jordan?

1:19:40 We are not majority And we, if you are not majority. We do not have the power and with another right to dictate The calendar language our way of life as a way we celebrate our holidays and That's it. This is end of the Zionist dream. final question yes International how can the international community?

1:20:08 Mm-hmm, and of course were from Germany. Yes German government support all the wars that Israel is conducting. How can Europeans, Germans and Americans help Israel accept? you guys won the war? First of all to learn this story I want believe...I want to believe That all the German elected leaders know by heart their Arab peace initiative.

1:20:45 I want to believe if... well, i expect people. I'm not sure about this. Okay anyhow so uh..i am sending a message. tell them! I will show them. the interview Tells him that i believed we won the war and the arab peace initiative. That was accepted by all the arab league members And later By fifty six Muslim states.

1:21:12 All the muslim world accept it. The Arab Peace Initiative is a baseline in order to ignite negotiations between Israel and Palestinians. And the only way for us, to accept it... ...is don't boycott us but don't support us unconditionally. I believe in great gesture. Why? I'm a generation of Yom Kippur War.

1:21:49 For us, you know until now during the last two years we lost about two thousand people and In Yom Kippur During three years in Yom kippu. We lost Two thousand and seven hundred People in less than Three weeks. so You can imagine The Trauma for Us My Generation. And Three Four Years Later We Signed Peace with Egypt.

1:22:18 for Us Egypt was a Devil And I believe that it was before the Arab Peace Initiative. It wasn't. in sixty-seven and Sadat, he decided what has to do is come to Jerusalem... ...and speak with the Israeli people. He came to the Knesset where they spoke on television with the Israelis and he didn´t threaten us!

1:22:53 He told me ''I want be your friend'' ''I wanna sign peace with you''. But I will do it only on the condition of Israeli-Palestinian relations. Before he came, i think that ninety percent Of us Israelis saw him as a devil. As an enemy. One or two weeks after It was amazing shift in The way we saw our enemies.

1:23:31 Now I want to translate this event A dramatic event. Yeah, he had a partner our prime minister begging and both of them they signed peace with American interference. Today you know after the seventh of October which was a horrific Event what happened? The Palestinian issue came back to table. if you will ask all the international leaders.

1:24:13 I don't know, one hundred eighty they will tell you that only a reality of two states Will create stability and Prosperity in the Middle East And it would create a major impact on The region and all the world. because today It is obvious That we...it's not A small conflict between Israel and Palestinians anymore Is a Major Regional Conflict that create a major impact on the global system.

1:24:51 The economy, energy political stability in many states. So can we imagine reality? In which I don't know one hundred and ninety too many but the major leaders i Don't know the twenty five Major leaders will come to Jerusalem And Will tell us Listen, we want you. We want your security. everywhere. So they will do it, but they will promise us a dream!

1:26:03 They will say on the condition of you will negotiate with the Palestinians On The Basis Of The Arab Peace Initiative And You Will Have To Divide This Piece Of Land. But You Mentioned Trust Earlier But there was no trust before he came. This is exactly the case, as a trust was built we need bravery for them to come.

1:26:40 I spoke with everybody and you know i met Arab leaders in in the Emirates and many places in Europe. And I told them, why you are not doing it? He said we will not come to a place where the Prime Minister would not accept that. So okay yes i agree You have to wait for their elections. It is for us. They won't save from ourselves.

1:27:13 but Yes We need international community To show away & create confidence. As I said, I believe in miracles. It can happen! Only a person who believes in miracles... ...can survive the Middle East. Maybe we should move here? Yeah You should. This was fun and very important. Thank you so much. Let's do this again sometime.

1:27:43 We come back regularly Every few years And i'm sure there will be much more to discuss. Yeah, okay I accept not because your audience would be saturated but in the Middle East we used to say that it's a most interesting place worldwide Because everything is happening here and i'm sure if you come for six months It'll be different reality and I believe that it will be a better reality.

1:28:23 And the dream, what i'm dreaming today is peace...I will not see peace in my lifetime. but okay! I am eighty-two years old It's ok. Now this trees. we spoke about these trees.. I did not plan those trees But We have to plant ideas. So our children Our grandchildren The people You know. you said that the audience Is young audience.

1:28:49 So yes, I think that they shouldn't give up on the future of the Middle East and in the future as well. Thank you so much! You're welcome Bye bye.