Terry Real: How to Reinvent Your Marriage When You've Grown Apart

Dr. Mindy (00:01.751) Well, Terry, welcome back to my podcast. I am so excited to have part two of our first conversation on midlife and marriage because this is this is a tangled mess for a lot of people. So I'm super happy that you're here. terry (00:14.018) Ha ha ha. Well, I I love your work and I think we're a great bear. So let's get going. Dr. Mindy (00:22.135) Let's go. So I'm gonna be really frank. I have sat with a lot of friends in midlife. I've heard from my community over and over again that women start to go through this transformation as they move into their postmenopausal years. And they become a different person. And it takes time for their partner to catch up with this new identity that they're becoming, with the new prev preferences that they have. And a lot of women say I cannot tolerate my partner anymore. Have you seen that happen to women in midlife? terry (00:59.726) I I mean we've all seen it. It it's it's l you know, it's making headlines. particularly my age baby boomers, the gray divorce. And yeah, women hit menopause and it's like, who needs you? But th that's not necessarily what I recommend. So I have some thoughts about why that is such an epidemic and what some possible alternatives maybe hey look if you want to leave them leave them fine but before you do what what was what was that phrase we came up with don't leave it reinvent it but so before you leave the relationship let me tell you some tips about how to stress it and see if you can wrangle more what you want from Dr. Mindy (01:40.524) Right. Dr. Mindy (01:50.754) Yeah, because what I hear so much is I have two options. I either go or I stay. Both options for a lot of women are not attractive. Like going is scary and staying is suffocating and can and they can no longer tol tolerate that. So if you are going to reinvent any relationship, but specifically a marriage, what are some of the tactics and strategies we would start with? terry (01:55.107) Right. terry (02:07.223) Yeah. terry (02:16.704) Okay. Well first I'd like to pull back, zoom back a bit and have more of an aerial view about why the first impulse is to leave, which is an epidemic, particularly in in the US. Women leaving marriages, children being estranged from their parents, like you're toxic. I don't it's a lot of like I'm gonna narc Yeah, n narcissist Dr. Mindy (02:31.007) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (02:38.386) yeah. Cancelling family members is a big thing now. Like I don't I can't hand yeah. terry (02:46.71) Yeah, narcissistic abuse is the new flavor of the month and you can't treat just walk out. Well all of these d just be empowered and get out of your relationship drives me nuts as a family therapist, a relational expert. that's your last resort. I mean look, i i if you have to, you have to, but there there's way too much okay, so what does the backdrop here You know from my work, I critique patriarchy and what it does to relationships, and I critique individualism and what it does. We do not live in a relationship cherishing culture. You know, go go to some countries in Africa, go to South America. But n Northern US no. It's individualistic and particularly for women. Dr. Mindy (03:25.388) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (03:31.497) Hmm, yep. terry (03:43.75) what what a lot of times happens is what I call moving from disempowerment to individual empowerment, which, forgive me, you know how I talk, I'm from Jersey. I I summarize as I was weak, now I'm strong, go screw yourself. I am woman, hear me roar, I have found my voice, I'm gonna tell you what I really think, god damn it. And you know, you move into individual empowerment from being overly accommodating, which is what many w particularly my age do. It it feels like it's a b on off binary. I I either accommodate or I leave, or I get powerful. and our our culture cheers. I put up with him and now I'm leaving him. Good for you, say individual therapists, girlfriends, twelve okay, how about this? If I may. The next step, which is new for our culture, is what I call relational. Dr. Mindy (04:23.308) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (04:32.65) Right. Dr. Mindy (04:36.906) Yeah. terry (04:43.242) empowerment. Sounds like this. I was weak. Now I'm strong. I'm gonna stand toe to toe with you. I'm gonna lobby for what I really want from you. Are you willing? the stakes are high. I'm gonna leave you for not. do we need help? Do you need d somebody to teach you some of these skills? what do we need here? But give it a shot. You know, do I want to leave this marriage? Yes. You wanna leave this marriage, but is that the only marriage that's possible? Why don't you test it before you throw it out the window? Dr. Mindy (05:18.987) Hmm. Mm. Dr. Mindy (05:23.629) Do you think people get into marriage like most people get married in their twenties and then they start to have this realization in their 50s? And it's like the reason they got into the relationship and wanted to get married now is not sticky for them anymore. They don't, it's not attractive for them anymore. They've got terry (05:28.205) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (05:42.902) Maybe career independence, financial independence, they're thinking for themselves, and all of a sudden they're like, Why did I do this thing that I thought was going to be great thirty years ago? It's almost like the institution of marriage has is set up to cause couples to fail. terry (05:59.213) Well, it is the way it's set up. I'll tell you why. you know, my my pal Esther Perel, she's French Belgium, she says, I hope I have six marriages in my life and I hope they are all to the same man. we don't have a model of transformation in our relationships. So either love it or leave it. which is stupid. That's not relationally sophisticated or skilled. Dr. Mindy (06:17.997) Yep. So true. So true. terry (06:27.436) If you look, if you're gonna leave it anyway, grab the son of a gun by the collar and tell him, you know, these are the changes I need. If you can't get through, go to a therapist who will help. And, you know, I've created a school of therapy, as you know, it's called RLT, Relational Life Therapy. Go to my website. It's different from other therapies in that we support whoever is demanding more intimacy. And it's nine out of ten times it's the woman. We take sides. Dr. Mindy (06:42.22) Right. terry (06:57.3) I I specialize in couples on the brink that nobody's been able to help. Every single one of these women has been thrown under the bust by the you know, is yeah, she says, Well, he never talks to me. We stopped having sex two years ago. He's pretty demeaning and shows no interest whatsoever. Okay. And Bill, what's your issue? Well she's kind of flaky and she's often fifteen minutes late. Well, okay, you both have that is a false equivalence. But we're taught as couples therapists to do that. Dr. Mindy (07:04.728) Right. Dr. Mindy (07:24.418) Mm. terry (07:26.998) It's nonsense. Get somebody who will be your ally if you can't get through to them. That Belinda and I are in we've been married 40 years. We're in couples therapy. If you can't get through the get somebody who will really help you take them on, which is not most therapists, but find one that will. If you can't rock the boat, and I'll go back to talking about how you do that, and you find a therapist who's gonna support you and try and get through and they can't get through, well then you're done. But d there are a lot of steps before you run out the door. Dr. Mindy (08:02.509) Right. Dr. Mindy (08:06.168) The way the what I typically see with women is that they want to have more of an emotional connection if they're in a heterosexual relationship. So they're not getting the same emotional connection. And they can go to their girlfriends and ha a ladies' night out and they can get the emotional connection. And meanwhile, their husband's like, Hey, this relationship's working. It's great. I've e this right. And and and the woman is saying terry (08:16.195) Right. Right. terry (08:24.451) Yeah. terry (08:30.402) Yeah, it's working for them. Dr. Mindy (08:34.728) I no longer feel a heart to heart connection and the man doesn't have the skill set to be able to open up his heart to meet her in the place that she wants to be met at. And he's also like, This is great. What are you talking about? This relationship is awesome. terry (08:41.858) That's right. terry (08:53.57) Yeah. So first of all, as you know, I I I have RLT therapists that we've trained all over the world, but my I don't see that many couples, but the couples are my beat are couples on the brink of divorce that no one's been able to help, and usually they trail I the la the record so far is eight therapies that did nothing for them. Let me tell you what's going on. Someone once described RLT as women have had a revolution and now men have to deal with it. And women have had a revolution. So all these women are wearing t shirts going, what do I need you for? Okay, so it goes like this. the great story of the 20th century is going to be the changing role of women. back in Jane Austen's day, if y you weren't supported by your husband, you know, you were a spinster and a Dr. Mindy (09:34.403) Mm-hmm. terry (09:51.69) little cottage in your uncle's house. i it was not a good life. You needed that guy to be a breadwinner. Well guess what? Women have joined the workforce. Women have at least as good careers as men these days. And we don't need you to be the breadwinner. We have our own career. All right, so then the question is, what do we need you for? Okay, so one of the things that I get up on stages and say is Dr. Mindy (10:06.637) Right. terry (10:19.544) We've never wanted more from our relationships than we want right now. Look, y you and I are, I think, both old in our parents and grandparents' marriage, it was a companionable marriage. Side by side, you don't cheat, you don't drink, you don't beat up good enough. You don't talk to each other, you have well tough shit. These days, women want these quality of relate they want you know, one of the things I say is i we really want to be lifelong Dr. Mindy (10:23.488) Hmm. Dr. Mindy (10:31.286) Mm-hmm. terry (10:49.46) lovers in our marriages. Long walks on the beach, hand to hand talks, good sex in our sixties, seventies, heart to heart, sharing, emotional sharing. Well guess what? When I say we want to be lifelong lovers, that we is mostly women. That's not men. So the conundrum we're all in right now is women are asking, hetero women are asking men Dr. Mindy (11:08.204) Hmm. Mm. terry (11:18.2) for a level of emotional intimacy that patriarchy does not raise boys to deliver. In fact, it's the opposite. Patriarchy lands on, you know, the interesting thing, boys at 3, 4, 5 are more emotional and sensitive than girls. But they boys love their mommies. Boys love their mommies. Yeah, they're delicate creatures. Dr. Mindy (11:23.81) Hmm. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (11:37.848) Yep. Yep. I had a boy. I know that. I raised a boy. Yeah. Yep, they really do. Yep. terry (11:46.796) But patriarch the masculine code lands on them. If it's not in your family, brother in the playground. You ready? patriarchy lands on girls, adolescents. This is Carol Gilligan's work, twelve, eleven, thirteen. That's where all the symptoms show up. You know when patriarchy lands on boys? Three, four, five years old. Before some of our sons have learned to read, they've already read the code. So the research says, Dr. Mindy (12:01.09) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (12:10.516) tell me or terry (12:16.312) They still feel, but they know better than to speak it. So well I get these guys, and you're you're right, there's always an asymmetry. It's look, it's women who are listening to this. It's women, I write books on men and the women buy them. I I like to say my books under appear under pillows all over America. Yeah, it's women who are dissatisfied, it's women who want more. Why? Women's roles have changed. Guys, guess what? Dr. Mindy (12:21.624) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (12:37.314) Yeah, right. Dr. Mindy (12:41.966) Mm. terry (12:46.112) It hasn't. The role hasn't changed. That's not a criticism, it's just reality. So women want the institution of marriage to shift from a companionable marriage to an intimate marriage. And men are going what's your problem? I deal with gu I deal with couples last ditch. I mean, after me is and and you know, I pull the woman woman I talked to the guy alone. Honest to God, hey Terry. Dr. Mindy (12:49.022) Right the way it is. Dr. Mindy (13:09.4) Yeah. terry (13:16.57) Things aren't that bad around here. if you you just kinda get her, you know, off my back, I think we'd be fine. You're wrong. So why my therapy is so unique is we take the side of the person wanting a truly intimate marriage. We're compassionate to the men. Hey, look, in order for you to be I say over and over again, what you learned as a boy. Dr. Mindy (13:37.761) Mm-hmm. terry (13:44.066) Whether you want it to or not, it's imposed on you, often violently. what you learn is what what you know, strong, independent, unemotional, logical. These are the very qualities that by today's standards will guarantee that you're a lousy husband. So, okay, you want to lose her or you want to reconfigure. And a lot when you put it men are logical. When you put it to the guy, do you love her? Yeah. Dr. Mindy (13:47.031) Mm mm. Dr. Mindy (14:02.551) Mm-hmm. Yep. Right. terry (14:12.984) You know you're gonna lose her? Yeah. We're talking about a total transformation. It's good for you, good for your body, you'll live ten years longer, good for your kids, good for your marriage. I can teach you. You want it? Yeah, sign me up. They almost always do. Now the women may be so burnt out, they don't have the patience for it. Dr. Mindy (14:21.55) Right. Dr. Mindy (14:31.511) I was just gonna say that. You know, that's what I hear from so many women. They're like, I just raised my children. I don't want to raise my husband. Like I'm ti I'm tired of and that but yet so many women, you know, they feel like they're the social director of the house. The husband doesn't have as many friends as she has. They wouldn't go out and do things if the if the wife didn't say, Hey, this is what we're gonna go do on Saturday night. So they're the like the social director. terry (14:39.97) You don't have to Dr. Mindy (14:58.943) in some cases they're the chef. Like, you know, they're I I'm gonna just really boldly say that that marriage works better for men than women. And that's the problem. terry (15:09.186) Yeah yeah. Well there's research on that. married men don't get sick, single men get much sicker. Married men don't have as many psychiatric symptoms, single men do. married women are generally less happy, more symptomatic, and physically more ill than single women. So you're right. On the other hand, at the deepest level, I'm a relational Dr. Mindy (15:13.326) Yeah. terry (15:38.744) guy. And I've been saying this for 40 years. And the research is caught up to me. Being in an intimate relationship, which could be your girlfriends, okay, but being in an intimate relationship is what we're born for. It's what we're designed for. And, you know, true relationality makes us healthier, makes our kids happier, and makes us happier. So, you know, the woman's do look, honest to God, Dr. Mindy (15:54.189) Mm, mm. terry (16:09.646) my wife we've been married forty years. My wife Belinda and I just had a knockdown drag out fight. I've changed so many things over the years. but she still like if I don't scan the calendar and come up with cool things for us to do, we'll sit home and all you do is your work and the news and T V. It's like you're boring. now, god God bless AI, if there are any guys listening. Dr. Mindy (16:33.935) Mm-hmm. terry (16:38.434) I would get overwhelmed try I now I just, you know, go to chat, TBT or Claude. Okay, give me overview of everything that's happening in Boston and all of a sudden a a lot of things that women are asking for a guy can learn with AI. But here but you got so yes, I don't want to do all the cooking. I don't want to do all the socializing, I want you to have friends. Say it. Dr. Mindy (16:52.601) Well done. terry (17:07.736) Stand up and shake the guy by the collar. This marriage isn't working. This is the marriage that might work if you're interested. But here's the thing: I was weak, now I'm strong, go screw yourself. Don't say it with hatred. Don't say it with harshness. Look, I'm I'm pretty fed up. I I've got one and a half feet out the door, but Dr. Mindy (17:25.806) Yes. terry (17:35.928) We're a family, we have history, we have kids. I'm gonna give you one shot. Here's what I want. Let's work on it. And if you're not getting what you want, let's go see one of Terry Wheel's therapists and they'll take my side and tell you you gotta work on it. I I gotta tell ya, a a lot, a lot of relationships come to RLT therapists and they look like they're on desk, they are on death door, but Dr. Mindy (18:03.669) Mm-hmm. Yeah. terry (18:05.762) You know what? It goes like this. Hey, how long you been with the guy? How many kids do you have with the guy? did you ever love him? yeah, I loved him back when. okay, great. Well, let's get him to shape up. I always say there are two gates. The first gate is he has to completely transform. I mean completely. Has to learn how to be relational the way you were taught as a girl to be relational. Dr. Mindy (18:30.063) Mm. Dr. Mindy (18:33.761) Right. Yeah. Yeah. terry (18:33.986) But men are taught to not do any of those things. You have to relearn. That's the first gate. And we're talking a matter of a few months in RLT, not years. Three, four months, I think. R we get it going. That's the first gate. Here's the second gate. And I always tell the guys, you could totally transform and your partner could say, you know what? Too little, too late. Thanks for the effort. I'm done anyway. And you gotta know that coming in. But Dr. Mindy (18:44.451) They can learn that. Okay. Dr. Mindy (18:59.808) Mm-hmm. Yeah. terry (19:04.0) Look, come on, you've been twenty years together, you got three kids, you know, the church, the country cla this is your Yeah, right. You know, Rachel saying, you know it's cheaper, you better keep her than making whoopee. think about what you're gonna lose before you storm out the door and be forceful and skilled. People don't teach women how to be forceful and skilled. Dr. Mindy (19:11.501) It's expensive to it to divorce is is very expensive. Dr. Mindy (19:20.206) Yeah. terry (19:33.73) They teach them how to be either accommodating and resentful or pissed off and individualistic. How about pissed off and I'm going to give you a shot? Dr. Mindy (19:43.8) Talk a little bit about resentment because I will tell you, I had a that was one thing I noticed in my marriage was that I was resentful when I didn't speak my truth. And the more times I didn't speak my truth, the more resentful I got. And to the point that it will I was just walking around with all these grievous grievances that I had never expressed. And then once I expressed them, they all came like like 20 years of things I wanted to say came. terry (19:54.2) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (20:12.719) Pouring out of me. How do we how do we say in the moment? I was just my daughter just got married. She's 26 years old. And she called me to tell me a situation that she was going through in her marriage. And I'm like, you have to speak your truth because if you don't, that stuff is gonna sit in there and fester. And I see that over and over again with women. They terry (20:14.434) Well no. terry (20:33.293) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (20:36.959) They are martyrs. Well he should know. He should know that I want to do the and and I I I know. He sh he's not gonna know unless you tell him. Okay, tell me. terry (20:40.386) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I got good news and bad news. first of all, bad news. accommodating and resenting it. Remember, I say over and over again: leading men, women, people of all genders into intimacy is synonymous with leading them beyond patriarchy, leading them beyond the culture. Our culture does not support. Dr. Mindy (21:08.179) Mm. Mm. terry (21:11.974) vibrant intimate relationships. It's individualistic. What what does that mean? Men are taught to not have open hearts, not be connected, go out there and perform. you gotta perform or they won't love you. Sitting down and talking to them, that's a waste of time. Bullshit. They're just brainwashed. Women traditionally are taught eat it and was in it, like you. Dr. Mindy (21:24.877) Mm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (21:34.671) Hm. Dr. Mindy (21:39.179) Yes. Yep. terry (21:40.524) Well, that's a traditional woman under Patriarch, accommodating and resentful. y you're talking to the guy who wrote the book I wrote a I did an audio book, they're gonna turn it into Fierce Intimacy. Take each other on. If and I've said over and over again, the first casualty when you don't take each other on, which most people don't, is a passion, generosity, open-heartedness. Dr. Mindy (21:42.882) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (21:54.763) Mm. Dr. Mindy (22:05.111) Hmm. Hmm. terry (22:08.022) You resent. If you're walking around resentment, how sexy are you? How generous are you? You know? So that's the norm in our culture. Cut off men and accommodating resentful women. Let's move beyond that. You speak up, but relationally, not individualistically. Let me teach you how. I'm gonna go back to that in minute. And buddy, you listen up, open your heart, and give. Dr. Mindy (22:11.842) Right. Right. Dr. Mindy (22:30.799) Right. terry (22:37.452) Yield. It won't kill ya. So both men and women have to move to see what happens with is individual empowerment. Like patriarchy is a binary, right? You draw a line down a piece of paper, all these qualities are feminine, all these qualities are masculine. And we all know the drill, right? You know, peace, accommodating, nurture, independence, competence, law. Okay. It's all bullshit. Dr. Mindy (22:38.936) Right. Right. Dr. Mindy (22:50.896) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (22:56.377) Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (23:07.504) Mm. terry (23:08.13) So when women move out of the traditional part of the binary, accommodating resentful, and they become powerful, they move over to the masculine side of the binary. And it's like, hey, hey, buddy, I'm powerful now. Shut up and listen. And then they wonder why that doesn't work. So there's a much more sophistic you this is moving beyond patriarchy. I call it loving power. Dr. Mindy (23:20.152) Right, right. Dr. Mindy (23:26.34) Yes. Yeah. terry (23:37.592) You don't have to be harsh in order to be powerful. And nobody knows this in this culture. It's brand new. So can I give you an example? Okay, please we're role-playing. Don't I don't mean to be disrespectful. Well okay. Hey, Dr. Mindy, I don't like how you're talking to me. I'm respectful of you. Please be respectful of me. Okay, that's okay. It's a C plus. Okay, that's standing up for yourself as an individual with harshness. Dr. Mindy (23:37.88) Mm. Dr. Mindy (23:47.033) Yeah, please. Dr. Mindy (23:51.469) Okay, don't worry. terry (24:07.63) How about this? Hey, Dr. Mindy, you're my friend. You know, we like each other. I want to hear what you have to say. Could could you like drop the volume a little bit and talk to me in a way that I can actually listen? I want to listen, but help us out here, okay? Two ways of saying the same thing. But one is about me, me, me, me, me. I'm not taking it, and the other is about us. I you can stand up for yourself. Dr. Mindy (24:15.696) Mm. Dr. Mindy (24:19.672) Mm. terry (24:36.64) and cherish your partner and be loving and cherish the relationship all at the same time. But people don't know how to do it in this culture. We have to learn. Dr. Mindy (24:45.752) And and so this therein lies where I think the meaning of marriage changes and even long-term commitments. I don't even know if it's marriage. I think, I think we come together in connection because it feels good to do life with somebody. And then all of a sudden it stops feeling good. And I'll tell you what I've learned from being married 30 years is that it's actually morphed now into like a terry (24:54.71) Yeah, it's not always married, but terry (25:02.787) Yeah. Dr. Mindy (25:15.792) relationship lab where I get to practice communication, like you just said, where I get to practice communicating in a different way to somebody that may, you know, chew in a certain way that I've heard for so many years, and I'm like, my God, there it is again. That will that chew. I've I know that chew, and it's gonna drive me crazy. But what I have come to realize is that there has never been a terry (25:20.43) There you go. terry (25:32.398) I know I got that one too. Dr. Mindy (25:45.38) Better lab to learn how to communicate to other people than a long-term marriage. terry (25:50.712) Beautiful. That's exactly right. Marriage is not a place where you get nurtured and fulfilled in all the ways that your parents didn't and you want them to. Falling in love, you think that. You know, James Famo Yeah. J James Famo, the father of couples therapy, once this is back in the fifties when it was assumed you're sleeping with your spouse. He said, The day you turn over and look at the person lying next to you and say to yourself, Dr. Mindy (25:57.711) Right. That's it. Right. It's easy. Falling in love is the easy part. terry (26:20.568) Holy crap. I've been had. This is a terrible mistake. This is not the person I fell in love with. That, says the father of couples therapy, is the first day of your real marriage. And I talk about harmony, disharmony, and repair. Disharmony sucks. I'm the guy who coined the phrase normal marital hatred. It's dark, but come up out of that and with some skill and finesse as you're learning, see if you Dr. Mindy (26:24.048) Mm. Dr. Mindy (26:32.664) Mm. terry (26:50.51) So your racism your relationship is not you y I hate it when people your partner is not your mother, they're not your therapist, they're not even your best girlfriend. They're different. However, this becomes the place where you get to learn your skills. You know, I say to people, all the skills I've taught for forty years are clinically tested. Belinda's the clinic. Dr. Mindy (26:58.413) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Mindy (27:14.784) Right, exactly. I mean, so this is something I recently again discovered in my own long-term marriage is like a couple years ago I realized, my gosh, I am actually codependent. And terry (27:27.212) Hi. Dr. Mindy (27:28.078) The only reason I knew that is all of a sudden I was getting to the point where I was like, I need him to be happy so I could be happy. And then, right? And then all of a sudden I'm like, wait a second, I need my daughter to be happy so I could be happy. I need my mother to be happy so I can be happy. Who who's the unifying factor here? It's me. Why do I need all these people to be happy so I could be happy? And I got the terry (27:35.86) terry (27:41.454) Well that's that. terry (27:49.485) Yeah. terry (27:53.036) Because you're because you've got about two thousand years worth of training of women to do that under under your belt. That's what a good woman is supposed to do. But pay attention to this, those who are listening to this. Yeah, you leave your husband, all right, so then you're codependent on your girlfriend. You're codependent on your daughter, you're codependent on your boss. You haven't changed. I'm talking about Dr. Mindy (27:59.3) Right, right. Dr. Mindy (28:03.364) Right. Dr. Mindy (28:12.302) Right Right. That's right. terry (28:19.522) Use the relationship to transform yourself. Men open up your ears and be flexible and yielding. Men think that being yielding means that you're a ball as wonder. No, you're a good husband. Women open up your throats and speak the goddamn truth with some force, some oomph, but with love, not with disdain. and you know help I talk about three Dr. Mindy (28:24.954) That's it. Dr. Mindy (28:39.034) Thank you. terry (28:49.256) d three phases of getting what you want in your relationship. One, rock the boat. Go ahead and say it, but try and say it skillfully. Dr. Mindy (28:57.55) I love that. Because women do women try to not rock the boat. We don't we've been taught to don't do that. terry (29:02.368) Right. And when and when you do, it doesn't work very well. So one okay, one rock the boat. This is really important to me. If you don't do it, either we're gonna stay together and I'm gonna be goddamn miserable or I'm gonna leave. It it ain't gonna go well. This is really important. You gotta shape up. Two, ready? Once the son of a gun says, Dr. Mindy (29:08.333) No. terry (29:30.83) Okay, I'll try. You know, they're remedial. I've been listening to women for 40 years tell me that their husbands are relational idiots. Yeah, great, I got it. Okay, here's two. Ready? Women don't like this. Once he says, I'm gonna try, listen to yourselves. Remember, you're dealing with a guy who had the boom of patriarchy dropped on him at three, four, five years old. Dr. Mindy (29:58.713) Mm. terry (29:59.052) Does he know what he feels? Does he know how to share his feelings? Does he know how to be vulnerable? Does he know how to be compassionate to your feelings? Guess what? No. Can he learn? Well, we'll see. In theory, the men I work with can learn. Will you're a man learn? I I don't know, we'll see. But give it a shot. This is what I want from you. So phase two, which women hate, is I call it helping him win. Dr. Mindy (30:02.513) Mm. Dr. Mindy (30:11.577) Mm. Mm. terry (30:25.42) Why do you want to help them win? Because winning means giving you what you want. Hello? how and this is brand new too. Okay, you're gonna work on it. Let me teach you what works for me. And women get this wrong because of patriarchy, because of individualism. I'm not gonna teach you what you need to do, you son of a gun, which is where all women go. I'm the objective authority. I know better about relationships than you do. This is what you need to do. Dr. Mindy (30:29.017) Mm, yeah. Dr. Mindy (30:41.283) Mm. Yeah. Dr. Mindy (30:55.115) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. terry (30:55.254) mental recoil from that. Speak subjectively with humility. I'm not the expert on relationships. I am the expert on Mindy. This is what I want you to do. And then this is also hard. The third phase is once the Son of a God starts to do it, imperfectly, baby steps at the start, encourage, don't discourage. Don't so many women when the guys start to give it to them, they yes but Dr. Mindy (31:05.455) Right. Dr. Mindy (31:20.305) All right. terry (31:24.854) Yeah, okay, but it's okay, you only get I I teach people celebrate the glass fifteen percent full. And it's counterintuitive. But you do it with your kids, right? Your kid comes home with a D, you have a come to Jesus, and they come home with a C. You don't say, Where's the B? You say, Good work, let's keep going. But you don't do that with yourself. We're endlessly critical. Dr. Mindy (31:31.258) Right. Dr. Mindy (31:34.97) Right. Dr. Mindy (31:45.136) Yeah. And I I and then I would say to that that a lot of women would say, I'm too tired to like applaud him. I'm too tired to train him. I'm too tired to go through all that work. And I I I'm curious what you would say to that, but I would say that I th as the older I get, the more I realize that everything we're looking for. in self growth exists in a long term relationship. That like I I I'll use the example Yeah. Yeah. terry (32:15.51) Right. Mini, hold on. We're taping, right? okay. forgive me. I just lost my mic and somebody's ringing somebody's somebody's ringing the doorbell. Give me two seconds and we'll roll it back. I I apologize. Dr. Mindy (32:24.451) Yeah, I hear it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. also he's frozen, Pat. I don't yeah, yeah, no, I was just gonna say he's frozen on my end. I don't know if you're seeing that. terry (32:33.006) Okay what? okay. terry (32:38.523) yeah. Dr. Mindy (32:41.531) Can I tr what hap Dr. Mindy (32:49.337) Okay, let's see. And what about I'm not on Wi Fi. If I turn if I go to I mean I'm on Wi Fi. If I decide to go to my I'm hardwired in, if I click over right now, will it will I lose everything? Okay. Dr. Mindy (33:10.672) Okay. Dr. Mindy (33:18.737) yeah. yeah. Okay. Well, so I'm gonna try Okay, I'm gonna try turning off my Wi Fi. Yeah, and then let's see. Okay. It says it's trying to connect. you guys aren't hearing me. Dr. Mindy (34:06.354) Shoot.