Hannah's story - breastfeeding as a comfort through grief, gentle weaning

This transcript is AI generated. [00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing, and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm talking today to Hannah. That's Hannah Shaw from Morecambe in Lancashire, and Hannah is a fellow ABMer. And if you don't know what that means, all will be revealed. And we're gonna be talking about Hannah's two different breastfeeding journeys. Um, she's currently feeding a four-year-old. She previously weaned at three. And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, one of the things that we will be touching on is breastfeeding, providing a comfort through grief. Um, so we're talking about child loss, um, rather than pregnancy loss. Um, and you can read a bit more about that in the show notes if you want to read that before you listen to the episode. Thank you very much for joining me today, Hannah So for those of you who don't know, can you, can you, uh, help us out? What's an ABMer? I'm gonna give you the secret handshake. Um, what, what's an ABMer? Um, [00:01:34] Hannah: Association of Breastfeeding Mothers. Um, it's an am- amazing organization. I trained initially as a peer supporter during my pregnancy/maternity with Imogen, and then I've recently just qualified as a breastfeeding or a probationary breastfeeding counselor. [00:01:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So when people are breastfeeding counselors, they're under probation, not 'cause we think you're gonna go and do anything dodgy and break into a bank or anything. But just so, um, so you can get a bit of extra support, and we can keep an eye on you in your early phases, and you take some calls on the helpline, and then you become a fully fledged breastfeeding counselor. So, so the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers is coming up for its 50th birthday, I think, um, in, just in a couple of years. And, um, it was founded in the 1970s. In the early days it was, you know, kitchen tables and phone calls in people's homes and, and now it's still phone calls in people's homes, but with all sorts of clever technology and National Breastfeeding Helpline computer systems. And so we have breastfeeding peer supporters, and we also have breastfeeding counselors who run the National Breastfeeding Helpline alongside people from the Breastfeeding Network. So those two charities run the National Breastfeeding Helpline together, the ABM and the BFN. So tell us a little bit about what it was like to train as a breastfeeding counselor. And I should actually just declare that I'm a marker for the breastfeeding counselor training. So, so I marked Hannah's module two. Um, so it's all happened in the past. She can be as rude as she wants about me, and I, I won't mark her down. Tell people what it's like to train as a breastfeeding counselor. What was that experience like for you? [00:03:06] Hannah: I ... Well, I, I thoroughly enjoyed it, to be honest. But there were ... Like, some of the modules are more intense than others. But yeah, I loved it. I loved getting into, like, more nitty-gritty of it. It was, yeah, just amazing. And the marking is so ... Like, to be honest, I think it's so fast. I don't know how you, how you do it . But I loved it. And I just feel like I've learned so much more. Like, as a peer supporter, you think you know quite a bit, but th- yeah, there's a, a whole nother level waiting for you . [00:03:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, you, you can never stop, actually. Once you get started learning about breastfeeding and lactation, it never ends. And I say that as somebody who's 20 years in. Yeah. So you do the study at home. Um, the modules are sent through. They are short question answers, deep question answers. You're encouraged to go and research, and obviously we, we help you find materials and, and guide you to sources 'cause it's all got to be evidence-based and reliable sources. And then you send your written module to the marker and, and we have a dialogue. And in your case, if I remember, it was such a brilliant module, I don't think we ended up having much of a chat 'cause you, you- No. Yeah ... everything was so good. But sometimes people need a bit of extra support, and we kind of chat backwards and forwards. How long did it take you to do your breastfeeding counseling training? [00:04:16] Hannah: They say roughly two years And I did take the full amount of time, but I have known people to do it a lot, a lot quicker. It's ... Yeah, if you can get through the modules and then they get marked, you can kind of speed through as quickly as, as you need to. But- Yeah ... I, I definitely took the full amount of time. [00:04:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, you had two kids, so fair enough. But yes, some people are a bit faster, and they just knuckle down and whiz through them, and, um, we've had people do it in, in significantly less than a year if they're, if they're super quick. [00:04:46] Hannah: Yeah. [00:04:46] Emma Pickett: Um, and as I said, we also have the peer supporter training, which is also online. And, and then alongside that we have webinars, and people do practice phone calls, and we have study days, and we have our national conference. And so it's not like you're always sitting at home at the kitchen table and you never meet anybody. You do, you do also. Um, we also have, um, supervision sessions, and Zoom sessions, and team meetings, and so you, you get to know real people as well as the fact it's based at home. So little advert for anybody who wants to train in breastfeeding support, the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers, which is for UK folks. Um, you need to have had some breastfeeding experience, um, and you can find more information about that on the ABM website, and I'll, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Um, thank you for allowing that advert to happen, Hannah. Tell us about your family. [00:05:30] Hannah: So I'm married to my husband, Tom. We've been married for seven years, I think. Anyway, it feels like we've been together too long. Um, and we've got two beautiful girls. Holly is eight, so in primary school, and Imogen has just turned four last week. [00:05:49] Emma Pickett: Oh, happy birthday, Imogen. So, um, you mentioned that you've got two lovely girls. Let's start with your breastfeeding journey with Holly, who is your eldest. She fed until she was three? [00:06:01] Hannah: Just short of three. Just [00:06:03] Emma Pickett: short. Okay. Okay. And before you had Holly, what did you know about breastfeeding? What was your kind of breastfeeding sort of cultural background, as it were? [00:06:11] Hannah: I knew a little bit because I ... My sister had breastfed my nephew. Um, they live out in New Zealand, so it's a lot more sort of normal there. It was everywhere, actually. But before that, I come from a very formula-based family. So all I ever knew was bottles. I don't even think I really knew that breastfeeding was a thing. And if I did, I hadn't clocked onto what anyone was doing. So I was a bit kind of, like, out on my own Trying something different [00:06:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, for some people hearing this, they'll be thinking, 'What was she on about? That's bananas.' But I know from talking to Cher Banks about her work that breastfeeding rates in Lancashire are historically quite, quite low or improving, and there are lots of people really working hard. You are one of the people working hard, but it wouldn't be unusual for somebody to have not met anybody who'd breastfed, um, before they had their own child. And your, your sister emigrated to New Zealand as an adult- Yeah ... and, and is her partner based in New Zealand? Is that why she's over there? [00:07:08] Hannah: Yeah, so he was originally born in New Zealand. They both have lived over in the UK, met at university and things like that, and then emigrated back there together and yeah, had a family. Okay. But yeah. [00:07:22] Emma Pickett: So, and so she was in that breastfeeding community, in that kind of culture where it felt normal and that's kind of- Yeah ... something you saw and it kind of got soaked into your cells a little bit, which is, which is great. And then, so when you had Holly, you knew you were gonna breastfeed. Is that something that you knew from the beginning or were you just kind of giving it a go? Where, where were you on the sort of scale? [00:07:41] Hannah: I knew I wanted to try, but I still very much s- said that what we're-- everyone seems to say where we're like, "We'll give it a go and see what happens." [00:07:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I don't think that's unusual in the UK. Even people who really want to breastfeed often say that because they almost don't think that they're kind of jinxing it if they say, "I will be breastfeeding." Not unusual. And, and tell us about how things worked out. What was breastfeeding like with Holly in the early days? [00:08:02] Hannah: It started off a little bit hard, but I think a lot of that was lack of knowledge. Like, I just needed someone to sit with me and say, 'On day two, she's gonna feed an insane amount and it's really normal. Just try and get through it.' But instead I was offered formula and we just got into a little bit of a mess. But I did reach out for support and at the time I do actually think the organization in my area was called Star Buddies, so a really, really older... And she came out to my house and- Yeah, she, she game changed it for me [00:08:35] Emma Pickett: Okay. So Star Buddies, that's a- Yeah ... volunteer organization. That wasn't part of the normal system? Yeah, so, yeah, so it's ... In Lancashire, we have, [00:08:44] Hannah: like, a commission service that runs it. So it was Star Buddies then. When I joined them, it was then FAB. That's who I first started off, my family and babies, that's who I first started off as, and now it's NCT. Okay. [00:08:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you said things were a bit, bit tricky and you got in a bit of a mess. Was that to do with positioning? Was that to do with, um, sort of milk production? What was happening? [00:09:05] Hannah: Uh, a bit of both. So I ... My nipples were so sore. They were bleeding. Like, clearly my positioning was not, was not right. Um, I got into a very hard situation of only being able to feed her in rugby hold, which I did for six months. Wowzers. [00:09:23] Emma Pickett: Six months of rugby [00:09:24] Hannah: hold. Which I am really impressed with, but- [00:09:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you must have- ... it was hard ... the deepest sofa in the world 'cause as baby gets longer, you've gotta really f- have a lot of space to fit a rugby, a rugby holding, a rugby feeding six-month-old. [00:09:36] Hannah: I wish you could see my eight-year-old 'cause she's really tall, and she was all legs, and yeah, it was really hard. I think I spent about six months being with backache and being very uncomfortable 'cause I was kinda, like, leaning. [00:09:49] Emma Pickett: So you had to lean to make space for her 'cause obviously- Yeah ... for anyone who doesn't know, with rugby hold, it's quite easy for babies to start to creep forward, uh, ahead of the breast, and then they start tucking their chin down. And, and you need ... So you need to keep the whole length of the baby behind the breast. So they're all g- their whole body's gonna be behind you, so you can't lean back on the sofa. You can't lean back in a traditional nursing chair. You need to be on the edge of something to have the space for all their legs to be behind you. So you ... So that leaning, you're trying to make space for her basically by, by leaning, so- Yeah ... yikes. And in bed I'm guessing you're kind of right on the edge of the bed, and when you get to the c- cafe, you're, I dunno what you, what you're doing, um, leaning in a weird position. [00:10:28] Hannah: Yeah, and I did a lot of using, like, the changing bag as a prop. Like, I feel like I became very nifty at it. I [00:10:35] Emma Pickett: bet you [00:10:36] Hannah: did. But it was really hard. [00:10:38] Emma Pickett: And then you fed Holly until she was three. Tell us what life was like with, with toddler Holly. [00:10:44] Hannah: She just loved booby. Like, booby solved everything. She's a very emotional child, even now, but it just, it solved everything. It was the perfect parenting tool I'd ever had. I was really sad when it stopped. [00:10:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I just need to say that the Lancashire accent, saying booby in a Lancashire accent is the best. Can you just say booby two times for me please? [00:11:06] Hannah: Booby, booby. Thank you very [00:11:07] Emma Pickett: much. Um, so y- you said that she was feeding a lot 'cause obviously it was an emotional thing for her, but, but you're in a world where there's not a lot of people feeding toddlers. How did it feel to be kind of a little bit out on a limb? Did you meet anybody else feeding a toddler? [00:11:21] Hannah: Yeah, so I had a really amazing breastfeeding group and sling library, and- Everyone there was breastfeeding. Like, there was at least several people there who were breastfeeding older babies. Like- Brilliant some up until the age of like five and onwards, and it became really normalized for me in that circle. I got a lot of comments off like family and things like that. It was not normal for them, but I found my people, and I think that, that is massive. [00:11:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That makes a huge difference for sure. Um, anyone in that situation who's on their own, you've gotta have such, such a strong personality to be able to push through that, and that's not something everyone can do. Not to put anyone on the spot, but tell me a bit more about comments from your family. How did that manifest itself, and how did you cope with that? [00:12:06] Hannah: I love my, like especially my mum and dad, absolutely love my mum and dad. They have been an amazing support system for me and my girls. They're just lacking education. They've got better, but they w- it was just the generic kind of comments like, "Oh, if you do that, like she'll never stop," and, "Are you not done yet?" And although they weren't really hurtful, it was still a comment that I didn't need. Yeah, it just felt sometimes like breastfeeding was blamed for everything, so if she was still waking a lot, "Oh, well, it's 'cause she's breastfeeding", and things. It was just, yeah. [00:12:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That breastfeeding scapegoat problem- [00:12:43] Hannah: Yeah ... [00:12:44] Emma Pickett: is such a problem, isn't it? The minute, you know, they fall down, "Oh, it's 'cause she's breastfed. She won't put her socks on 'cause she's breastfed." It's blamed for sleep. It's blamed for having difficulty settling in somewhere new. It's blamed for not wanting to stay with other family members. It's blamed for being slow to solids. Even though we don't have any evidence that these things are necessarily connected to breastfeeding, it just becomes the thing that everyone blames. What was her sleep like in the toddler years? Do you remember? [00:13:08] Hannah: She was actually pretty good, and since having my second, and I'd say she was actually bleeding brilliant 'cause my second is an absolute, like she just does not like sleep. But at the time I would've said it was hard, and she did wake often, but yeah, she was... It wasn't horrendous really. It was just- Okay ... yeah, baby, like yeah, baby [00:13:28] Emma Pickett: toddler. And you were, you were co-sleeping, or what was the sort of, what were you doing? [00:13:31] Hannah: Yeah, always bed shared. Um, was a bit more resistant with Holly. Didn't start doing it till about four months. Actually had a bit of an incident where I was feeding her sat up sleeping Well, she was ... And I, I fell asleep whilst holding her, and I dropped my phone on the floor, and that bang, like woke me up. And after that I was like, "No, I need to get her to feed in my bed because that could have been her." So yeah. Gosh. I changed my- [00:14:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... [00:14:00] Hannah: my thinking on that. I was very resistant to it, but I think that was because of comments that people made or- [00:14:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... [00:14:08] Hannah: it, yeah. [00:14:09] Emma Pickett: Gosh, thanks for sharing that. I think that's really important people hear that, that story because that is happening in homes all round the country right now. People thinking, 'I'm not gonna co-sleep. I'm not gonna co-sleep. I'm gonna sit up. I'm gonna sit up.' And it's 2:00 in the morning and they're on the sofa, which we know is the most dangerous place to fall asleep with a baby. And they're trying to feed, and they are falling asleep feeding in the most dangerous position because someone's told them that bed sharing is dangerous. Whereas if they follow the guidance and, you know, go to the right website and, you know, so it's gonna be the BASIS website, Baby Sleep Information Service. We can put that link in the show notes as well. If, you know, following the guidance is gonna be a heck of a lot safer because so- lots of people when they breastfeed at night, as, as you know, get that lovely dose of oxytocin in their bloodstream. They're going to be sleepy too. You're kind of meant to be sleepy while you breastfeed at night. That's sort of the way that biology's planning it. So the idea that you can sit in a chair, bolt upright and stay awake, it's just not the reality for lots of people. Lots of people will wake up and realize they've fallen asleep feeding, and they've been seated doing it, and baby slipped or the cushions moved or they've, they've hunched over their baby. And we know that lying down, side lying, following the guidance is gonna be safer. So, so that story of resist, resist, resist for several months and then having an epiphany, gosh, so many people will recognize that story. And quite often with baby number two, you haven't even got the cot set up because you're just ex- not expecting them to even get in the cot. [00:15:33] Hannah: I did, but mainly just as a side table. Like I remem- like I was like, it makes a good side table, so [00:15:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah, or it's laundry sod storage. Yeah. That's the other thing cot- Yeah, like- ... cots are good [00:15:43] Hannah: for ... belongings in there and yeah, just that, yeah, snacks. [00:15:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah, people recognize that. So you started bed sharing, and you carried on obviously feeding through the toddler years, and then you weaned when she was three. Tell us a bit about how that came about and, and when you knew things needed to come to an end. [00:16:01] Hannah: I'd had quite a bit of aversion with her on and off, so I had wanted to wean her quite From about 18 months. And we'd go through periods where it was better and it wasn't. Um, but then I changed my job and I ended up working a lot of evenings, um, like 6:00 till 10:00, so that I could then spend all day with her. Wasn't every single night, but she got very used to my husband taking her to bed, so that's how she night weaned, was it was just the change in routine. Okay. Like, soon she started asking for him even on the nights that I was there. It was- [00:16:35] Emma Pickett: Okay ... [00:16:36] Hannah: really, really subtle. [00:16:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's kind of really interesting that happened. So, so you didn't actually have to wean as such, you were just working- No ... and he was the parent, and that just- Yeah ... became her natural pattern. How did it feel when she was saying, "No, I want Daddy," when you're home? [00:16:53] Hannah: Oh, I really, really disliked her. Really disliked her. I think I'd spent ages wanting him to be able to take her when I wanted it to happen, when I wanted the break. But to have her choose him more often, I was like, "Oh, I feel a bit redundant. I don't really know what I'm supposed to do." And n- not many people experience that. Like, it's unusual. Like, I don't wanna say my partner's like a hands-on dad. He's just a dad that I think you're supposed to be. But we've had two daddy's girls, and they've absolutely loved him being the dad that he is, and I think I've been really lucky that they just kind of take to him, and I've not really had that battle of getting them to settle with somebody else 'cause that's just our norm. [00:17:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's great to hear. I think it's imp- really important that people listen to, to s- a story where the parent who doesn't breastfeed can absolutely still be the person that settles at bedtime and settles at night, and even possibly the preference. Even if you are a breastfeeding mom and a breastfeeding toddler mom, it is possible that there's a parental preference with a parent at, in, in moments. Most people will experience that feeling at some point in their parenting experience, but it's usually, you know, the four-year-old, the five-year-old, the s- the eight-year-old. So, to get it at, you know, in the toddler years is perhaps not common, but I, I really appreciate you sharing that, and it's, yeah, not easy. Not easy to go through, go through that. [00:18:17] Hannah: I remember reading something about, like, wanting to do, like, natural term weaning, and then for a while I was quite harsh with myself being like, "Oh, well, I didn't do that 'cause actually what happened was that she stopped feeding because of my work." And I was like, 'Why am I being so hard on myself?' Like, she stopped when she wanted to. She was ready. We actually had a really beautiful journey. But I remember being quite like, I wonder if, if I'd had not worked evenings, whether it would've been different. [00:18:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah. One of the things that I sometimes talk about is I think we've gotta be really careful about imagining that there's this thing called child-led weaning- Yeah um, and that is the perfect breastfeeding journey, and that's what we aspire to do, and that's what all the good moms, in inverted commas, do. 'Cause actually, if you look at those stories, there isn't such a thing as pure child-led weaning because you are giving that child a cup. You are giving them food. It's, you know, I mean, what would h- what would pure child-led weaning have to be? You know, you're living in a forest and they forage for themselves, and you don't show them where the mushrooms are, but they f- I mean, there's just not a... You know, we live in a world where we put plates of food in front of them. Sometimes we've got to leave the house. Sometimes we've got to go to sleep, and we've got to go to work, and we've got other kids to look after, and nobody will e- ever have a breastfeeding journey where they won't have said at some point, "Oh, I'm so sorry, love, I need to do X. Can't feed right now You know, there's always gonna be a bit of, of gray area. So, so I think it is really important that we don't kind of put too much emphasis on, you know, if your life doesn't work out completely child led, that that's a lesser journey. And your situation, it sounds as though, you know, it was actually very gentle for her. It doesn't sound- Yeah ... as though it was something that, that would have caused her mu- distress at all. And so you said that you went back to work when she was, um, in the toddler years, and then- Yeah ... she naturally night weaned anyway. Yeah. And then how did it end up ending completely? [00:20:07] Hannah: So she just had the one feed then at nap time, and then when she dropped her nap, it just disappeared. [00:20:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. So she didn't ask really at the times, it just was something- No that faded away for her naturally. [00:20:20] Hannah: Yeah, just really naturally. Yeah, just feeds dropped as and when. [00:20:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you didn't ever have to go, "Right, I'm dropping the next feed. I'm doing the next thing"? That wasn't- No ... something that never happened? [00:20:32] Hannah: Yeah, no, not with Holly, no. [00:20:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Tell us a little bit about aversion for anyone who doesn't know what that's like. W- what, tell me, tell us about your experience of having aversion with Holly. [00:20:42] Hannah: For me, it was intense kind of feelings of, of dread. I feel like my skin was crawling, which sounds awful to describe feeding your child like that. But yeah, I just want-- sometimes I just wanted her to get off me. It was, yeah, I just really wanted her not to. [00:20:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And nothing really helped. You tried all the, the hydration and the magnesium and all that stuff. Nothing made a, nearly made a difference? [00:21:08] Hannah: No, not really. Like, it, we, like I said, we did have better times, and I do think a lot of it was probably linked with my mental health. Like, I did have postnatal depression, so I think there were just periods maybe when my moods were maybe darker So it might have factored into that, but I just remember it was on and off feeling like it just really irritated me, that action of just on and off, on and off. [00:21:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. I'm sorry to hear about your postnatal depression. When did you realize that was something that was happening? [00:21:40] Hannah: When Holly was one. Although it's technically not classed as po- postnatal depression at that point 'cause she's over one, but it is what it was. [00:21:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. And did you get some support? What was the support system like? [00:21:52] Hannah: Yeah, so my health visitor was amazing. I then self-referred into a talking therapy. It's called Mind Matters in Lancashire, and I, I did end up choosing to take some, um, antidepressants as well, which I've been on ever since. [00:22:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you for, for sharing that. I think it's really important people hear about how antidepressants are absolutely compatible with breastfeeding and- Oh, yeah and one of the better researched, you know, medications in that sense 'cause we know people who are going to need to take them in the postnatal period and, and there are medications that are absolutely safe and, um, no one should ever make anyone feel that that's not the case. Um, so you ... Did you carry on taking antidepressants through pregnancy with Imogen as well? [00:22:35] Hannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did um and ah about whether I should stop, but I thought, no. Like you get so much emotions and hormones through pregnancy and after birth I was like, "No, I'm not even chancing." So yeah. [00:22:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You don't mess around. If you've got- No ... something that helps you and there's no reason why you can't take it in terms of safety, why flipping not continue taking it? Yeah, exactly. Makes, makes perfect sense. Um, okay, so we've said goodbye to breastfeeding Holly, and at what point did you start training as a peer supporter? Was that when you were kind of meeting this, this fab group of people? [00:23:06] Hannah: Yeah. So Holly would've been about one. [00:23:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. I say fab group of people, but obviously F- Fab was actually- Yeah, well you, you also trained with. Um, so you trained as a peer supporter, um- Yep ... and, and then did you, do you, were you volunteering? What does, what does that look like? [00:23:21] Hannah: Yeah. So I ran my local group for a while in, um, Morecambe and, Morecambe and Lancaster. Um, I did- A lot of volunteering on the wards. We used to be there like 9:00 till 12:00 or something like that, and you'd meet parents who were breastfeeding, and if they needed any support on the wards, and, um, I love, I loved that. And then COVID, COVID hit, and everything changed in terms of volunteering. [00:23:47] Emma Pickett: Support going online, did you have kind of Zoom groups and things? [00:23:50] Hannah: Yeah, Zoom groups, and then we also had, like, a closed Facebook group, um, that grew rapidly. So yeah, everything just went online. Um, I did a lot of social media support. [00:24:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah, those were the days for anyone who's involved in breastfeeding support where we just had to suddenly pivot, and technology was embraced very, very quickly. And still today, we've got Zoom groups and Zoom support happening that, that continued after that. I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self-weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also we sometimes have needs too. Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition From Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond, that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books, and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you Okay, let's talk about Imogen. And you're, so you're going to get pregnant with Imogen, and obviously breastfeeding is now very much part of your world and very much part of your life. Um, tell us about Imogen's early days. [00:26:31] Hannah: Uh, she was just a natural. Like, she latched on in recovery. So, um, I ended up having an emergency C-section with her, so I did skin-to-skin whilst they stitched me back up. And then in recovery I, I latched her on straight away. I do look back at photos, and it was probably quite questionable. She was definitely, like, face-planting the boob. But, um, I remember just thinking, "She's gonna be easy." She's a very different personality. That was the only major difference. She, uh, snack feeds a lot more than Holly did. Holly would be sat there for, like, 45 minutes Imogen was not like that. It was like 10 minutes here and there and everywhere and yeah. As a baby she had that awful hour of just screaming from like 11:00 o'clock at night till midnight. And if she'd been my first, I'd have thought she was broken. [00:27:28] Emma Pickett: Oh, you got the late shift. That's rough. Yeah. Quite often people get the witching hour at sort of 7:00 PM, 6:00 PM. But to, to get the witching hour in the middle of the night like that is really tough, especially if you've got Holly trying to sleep somewhere in the house as well. [00:27:40] Hannah: Yeah. [00:27:41] Emma Pickett: So didn't have any particular pain. No. Didn't particularly have latching issues. [00:27:45] Hannah: Yeah, no, not really. We, I got, I managed to I managed to get a milk blister in my early days because of doing what we're, like bed sharing and sleepily latching her on and not taking her off when it hurt or adjusting when it wasn't quite right. So that really hurt. I don't recommend them. Um, but other than that, I, no, no real pain. Loved trying different positions with her. [00:28:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Not doing the rugby hold. Woo. [00:28:16] Hannah: Didn't do the rugby hold. Did sometimes. W- During those, like witching hour, I would sometimes resort back to it. I think it must have just been like a bit of a comfort blanket for me. But no, loved laid back feeding with Imogen and just being as comfortable and yeah, embracing that, those sleepy feeds as possible. Y- [00:28:38] Emma Pickett: you said that, um, Imogen wasn't such a great sleeper, and sleep's been- No ... a bit of an issue. Tell us a bit more about that. She just doesn't like it. Um, [00:28:44] Hannah: she- You're, [00:28:48] Emma Pickett: you're laughing with a desperate look on your face. [00:28:51] Hannah: Even now though, she's not brilliant. Like, yeah, she just wakes every hour. Nothing major in, in the sense of when she was younger, she would boob and go back to sleep, but then she would wake again every hour. Uh, I remember getting to a point where I was really struggling with it, and I was like, "We're gonna try some night weaning." And she was not ready for that whatsoever. And I think after two days I was like, "This was a ridiculous idea, Hannah". So I think she was probably about 14 months at the time. I don't recommend it. [00:29:26] Emma Pickett: She just wasn't getting it. No- [00:29:28] Hannah: No ... [00:29:28] Emma Pickett: nothing at all. [00:29:29] Hannah: And to be honest, m- I don't think that was the answer. I just needed something to help with sleep. Yeah. I was just trying anything. [00:29:37] Emma Pickett: So co-sleeping, waking hourly, I think everybody would recognize how intense that is. Even if you are co-sleeping and kind of half sleepily feeding, it's still incredibly intense. And you weren't going back to work in the evenings like you were with Holly? You didn't have that 6:00 PM to 10:00 PM job? No. Yeah, no, 9:00 to 5:00 job now. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so we didn't need to rely on Tom to do nighttime care, or maybe that would've been quite good if maybe he had done a bit of nighttime care. But, um, I guess if it doesn't feel essential 'cause you're there, it's not something you fall into as a pattern. So you're feeding through the toddler years, desperately using the sedatives and breast milk to try and get her back to sleep at night, and it sounds as though she was a little bit more of a booby monster than, than Holly. You've got no sign of her self-weaning at this point? [00:30:19] Hannah: No. [00:30:19] Emma Pickett: No. And then w- obviously the title of this episode is touching on how breastfeeding was a support to you through grief. Tell us a bit more about what we're, what we're talking about. [00:30:29] Hannah: Um, so when Imogen was nearly one, um, in the August We lost my niece, Millie, who, um, was six years old. It was a very traumatic accident. It was not anything we ever foresaw. She, yeah, she was hit by a, a vehicle. So, um, it was one of the most horrific times of our family's life. [00:30:59] Emma Pickett: I'm so sorry, Hannah. What a horrible, horrible thing for a family to go through. Just devastating. And obviously you've got lots of adults that you need to support, as well as thinking about your own, your own feelings as well. [00:31:10] Hannah: Yeah. I think I had been thinking about what weaning might look like, but I, I, I am very chilled. Like, I am just sort of... I'm quite lazy, actually, I think is probably how I'd describe myself. And if it's working, I'm not gonna change it. So we carried on. Oh, hello. [00:31:27] Emma Pickett: Hello, Imogen. Our little Imogen has now joined us with some fabulous ponytails, if you don't mind me saying. Nice to see her. So in that moment, you were thinking possibly about weaning and maybe thinking about what that journey might look like, and then obviously you got this devastating news about Millie, and that changed what you were thinking? [00:31:50] Hannah: Yeah. I just needed that oxytocin, if I'm being honest. Um, I think I just absolutely loved any moment of reconnection with my babies, so breastfeeding just became a way to help me through my grief. I just loved that, yeah, that reconnection, the comfort of being close to my child, being able to hold my child. And then as time went on, because of what had happened, it ended up we needed to go to trial for, for Millie. So we all kind of relived it last year. And I think Imogen was definitely slowing down on her feeding, and I kinda picked it back up because I was like, "I'm not ready for this to finish." So I would offer, like, during the night if I felt that she was a bit unsettled. At the moment, she only really feeds to bed, but I would if she felt a little... If she sounded a bit dysregulated or anything like that, I would offer it. And to be honest, if I felt dysregulated and needed that cuddle, I'd be like, "Shall we have a booby cuddle?" And it, it's just helped me. Like, I, I think I listened to one of your podcasts, and I don't know if, if it was grief that was mentioned or if it was something else, but you had said about how, like, that oxytocin and how much that can actually benefit you, and maybe when something like that, like traumatic or trauma is happening, it might not be the easiest time to wean. And I... It was just like a light bulb moment, really. And I was like, "Yeah, I need to-" Not I want to breastfeed at this point. I need her as much as she needs me. [00:33:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, I think everybody would absolutely understand that. And, and just to state the flipping obvious, you can't force a child to breastfeed. No. That is just literally not possible. So if you offered and Imogen had gone, "No, thanks", there's nothing th-that you could've then done. Yeah, no. Yeah. So, so offering doesn't mean you're extending breastfeeding beyond a natural timetable or, or making her feed. She was, you know, she's absolutely a willing partner in this. Do you mind me asking, was Millie your, uh, a sister's child or a- My brother's ... brother's child? My brother's [00:34:03] Hannah: child, [00:34:03] Emma Pickett: yeah. Okay, okay. So I mean, reliving everything again, going through a trial and the uncertainty of that just must be absolutely horrendous. And I think one of the things that's obvious is obviously Imogen's gonna pick up on that. Hollie's gonna pick up on that. The whole family- Yeah ... is picking up on that. So, so the idea that breastfeeding is just your comfort, I mean, for sure, I think anyone would agree that it's gonna be giving Imogen that sense of security and, and comfort as well through a l- huge time of uncertainty. Do the girls know about Millie's story? Do ... How do you talk to them about Millie? [00:34:34] Hannah: Imogen doesn't really understand. She was ... 'cause uh, she was quite young when it happened, but Hollie does. They were really close. They were cousins, best friends. [00:34:43] Emma Pickett: Hollie had that loss as well of a close friend- Yeah ... I mean, a c- close cousin. Absolutely rough on everybody. Um, I'm just so sorry. So you carried on feeding, and you thought, okay, so at this point, y- last year, you know, Imogen was three and- [00:34:58] Hannah: Yeah ... [00:34:58] Emma Pickett: and obviously you're getting to the point where you've already gone past how long you fed Hollie, and there's no end in sight at the moment. What's breastfeeding like at the moment for [00:35:08] Hannah: Imogen? She feeds just when she goes to sleep, really. Um, and not every night 'cause my husband, he's, he does shift work, so when he's at home, he'll take her to bed that night 'cause we think it's, it's, well, it's nice for him as well, and it means I get to then read Hollie a book. So we like to share that as much as we can. On her birthday though, she did come into bed, and that morning was like, "Can I have booby?" And I was like, "Well, I can't say no on your birthday." So we did have morning booby birthday. [00:35:38] Emma Pickett: So again, she just naturally stopped asking in the day. You didn't have a kind of weaning process as such. What was happening? [00:35:45] Hannah: No, I think, I think work probably did impact, um, again. Then she went to nursery, so she would ask when, those days when you arrive at nursery at 5:00, and she'd see me, she would just run to my boobs. It wasn't me. It was very much like head-butting the boobs. Sometimes we wouldn't even be able to get to the car to feed. I'd just sort of sit on the floor at nursery and feed her. So yeah, she just naturally picked up on her solids. Um, neither of my girls have ever, ever taken Bottles or anything like that [00:36:17] Emma Pickett: So, so feeding naturally faded away without- Yeah ... you having to do an enormous amount. Did you, when you went back to work, did you do any expressing at work? What, what do you do for work, by the way? [00:36:26] Hannah: It's changed over time. So with Holly I was more retail, um, and then care work, and then now I actually work for my commission breastfeeding service. So if you ever call our local helpline, it's me that you're- Fantastic ... that you get on the phone. [00:36:43] Emma Pickett: And you didn't, you didn't need to pump back at work, that wasn't a problem? [00:36:46] Hannah: Yeah, I think I, I did a bit for comfort, but to be honest, I don't really enjoy pumping. It's not ... If I don't have to do it, I won't. So it, yeah, my supply regulated pretty fast. And- Yeah ... like neither of my girls have ever taken breast milk from a bottle or a cup. They just refused. So yeah, they just had solids and, and water whenever they were away from me. [00:37:10] Emma Pickett: So we're talking on a Thursday morning. When was the last time that Imogen fed? [00:37:14] Hannah: I did bed last night, so last night. [00:37:17] Emma Pickett: Okay. And tell us about what your bedtime routine looks like. [00:37:20] Hannah: Um, we go in, we read a book. Her favorite one at the moment is, I, I can't remember what the author's called, but it's Milk and Cookies. I picked it up at the ABM conference this year. [00:37:29] Emma Pickett: Oh, that would be Emma, I think. Emma Rosen. [00:37:33] Hannah: She's just obsessed with that book. [00:37:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It's a, it's a ... I actually talked about it at the ABM conference when I did a post, so it's funny you should mention it 'cause I think I d- did a little post about it 'cause she was selling it at the, uh, at her stall. Yeah, so Emma is also an ABM'er as well. Yeah. And she has written a couple of books about breastfeeding, one about her own breastfeeding experience, and then Milk and Cookies is a lovely picture book about breastfeeding. It's not about weaning, it's just about the world of breastfeeding, and it's a great book for little people to talk about breastfeeding. Um, and, uh, yeah, definitely recommend. So Milk is her book about her own breastfeeding experience, and then Milk and Cookies is her picture book. Um, she's also an author of lots of other picture books as well, especially ones about the kinda natural world, but Milk and Cookies is definitely a recommendation. And, and Emma's also a teacher, and she joined me for a podcast episode where we talked about talking to children about breastfeeding and how important it is to have that conversation. And, uh, yeah, she is Emma Rosen Books on Instagram, and I'll- Yeah, [00:38:27] Hannah: yeah ... [00:38:28] Emma Pickett: I'll pop that in the, um, in the show notes. Yeah, another vote for Milk and Cookies. It's a, it's a very cute book. [00:38:33] Hannah: It is really cute, yeah. She just seems to really love it. Um, and then we put her audiobook on, which is just like a Tony box with the little characters on top. Um, and she picks which one And then she asks for booby. And then she does this really cute thing now where she'll only feed for like five minutes, 10 minutes really, and then she'll go, 'All done.' And then she turns away and she's like, 'Can I have a cuddle?' And goes to sleep. [00:39:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. And so it's just one side? There's two sides? [00:39:04] Hannah: Oh, just one side now. Yeah, the right is fully rejected for the past six months. [00:39:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you are uni-boobing- I'm uni-boobing ... which is a phrase I like to say. And, uh- Yeah ... and that is also super common. Lots of people will end up only uni-boobing towards the end of their breastfeeding experience. Yeah. Are you very lopsided as a result of that? Or how does, how, how have things manifested? [00:39:25] Hannah: Yeah. Well, I wouldn't say massively, but the ... I can tell. There's a [00:39:28] Emma Pickett: size difference, yeah. Yeah. And when you finish breastfeeding, that won't necessarily be the case. Things, people will often even up again. So it sounds like for her, she's ... You can see how this is gonna end. She's gonna breastfeed for less and less, be less bothered, want to get straight to the cuddle. It's gonna kind of naturally fade away. And then when Tom's doing a bedtime, that means you won't h- you won't feed for, for a whole day. [00:39:49] Hannah: Yeah, sometimes two. Sometimes he'll do it, like if he's off Tuesday, Wednesday, he'll do both days. [00:39:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then you'll breastfeed again two days later, three days later, and there's still some milk there. She's not fussed. [00:40:02] Hannah: Yeah. She has said no milk once, but she's not said it since, so. [00:40:06] Emma Pickett: Okay. [00:40:07] Hannah: Which she does say about the side that she won't ref- She is like, 'There's no milk in there. There's no point.' [00:40:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. [00:40:12] Hannah: Like, [00:40:12] Emma Pickett: okay. Yeah. So, so the way you're describing things is a really interesting kind of representation of what the end of breastfeeding can look like. People will often skip a couple of days. Um, even if they're still doing bedtime every night, th- they might skip a couple of days. You might end up getting, um, you know, not breastfeeding at all, um, for a big chunk of time, and then your breasts will, will still be producing when they need to be producing this. It'll still be there. And then so you're just gonna let her take the lead. What's your plan for the ending? [00:40:40] Hannah: Don't really know. Yeah. For now, I'm quite happy. If I, if I don't-- yeah, I, if I wanted to, I would lead it a little bit more, but I knew that I didn't wanna take it away, like, as soon as she turned four. Um, I'd like to stop in the next six months or so, but I'm not in any major rush, and there's no real reason why. I think we would like to have another, and I would like to have a little bit of a break if we were to have a third, just for personal preference. But yeah, other than that, I've not, I'm not in any rush. [00:41:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It sounds like it's working right now, and she sounds like she's very peaceful. What a peaceful weaning story you, you are having- Well, yeah, she, yeah ... with both your girls. There's no, um- I'm [00:41:21] Hannah: very lucky, yeah ... [00:41:22] Emma Pickett: it sounds tear-free. I mean, it sounds as though it's just been, obviously there are tears for other reasons, like not wanting to- Yeah sleep in the middle of the night and having the witching hour. But, um, it sounds as though in both cases, they've just been able to kinda do things under their own steam and, and, and your lovely sort of laid back manner means that you're just happy to, to go with the flow if that's what works for them. [00:41:42] Hannah: I think with my second I was, yeah, I've definitely been more chilled, and I did introduce boundaries from sort of day- Well, as early as possible. And by that I mean, like, Imogen always really wanted to be... I could tell she just wanted to nipple twiddle, and I, I, I just knew that that was never gonna be something that I could cope with. So I've always had little boundaries there if it's been uncomfortable, and I think that has helped 'cause it's kinda meant that it's been more of a two-way relationship from the beginning. [00:42:08] Emma Pickett: So for anyone who's struggling with twiddling, tell us what the sort of things that you did. [00:42:12] Hannah: Luckily, she was quite happy with, like, hand-holding or I wear a lot of, like, necklaces, and she would just, like, fiddle with them and things like, like she was quite happy with that. Yeah, they were the main things really. [00:42:26] Emma Pickett: So you're just kinda redirecting her hand- [00:42:28] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah ... [00:42:29] Emma Pickett: um, you know, not kind of letting her do it essentially. Not- Yeah ... not doing something that didn't feel comfortable. [00:42:33] Hannah: She will now twiddle her own nipple. [00:42:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. That is a new one. [00:42:38] Hannah: Make, [00:42:39] Emma Pickett: make quite fun of that. I've not heard that one before. That is- [00:42:40] Hannah: Yeah ... [00:42:41] Emma Pickett: an interesting solution to the problem. Um- [00:42:43] Hannah: Yeah, that is what she does. Her, you can see her hand go up her top, and she will just rub that area, and that can be part of how she goes to sleep. But it doesn't bother me, so you go, Milly girl. [00:42:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah, she's doing it at home. It's not like she's doing it in Sainsbury's. I think- No ... in a, in a home environment you get, you get to make the rules and whatever works for her. Gosh, thank you so much for sharing your story, Hannah. I really appreciate it. And, um, thank you for, for talking to us about Milly as well. [00:43:09] Hannah: My pleasure. [00:43:10] Emma Pickett: What's something that you would want anyone to take away from your story? What's the, the sort of thing that you feel is most important? [00:43:16] Hannah: That with breastfeeding it does, it does have to work for both of you. And by that I mean it doesn't just have to be the little one. Like, I think I finally realized that when I needed it, that's just as valid as her needing it. And like you said, you can't really force a toddler or a baby to breastfeed, so if you're the reason that you want to continue for whatever reason, that is just as valid as them wanting it. Like, our feelings are just as important. [00:43:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And you can absolutely offer a feed, and [00:43:48] Hannah: you can- Yeah ... [00:43:48] Emma Pickett: um, you know, it, it doesn't ... This whole kind of don't offer, don't refuse nonsense, no, you're allowed to offer in that moment if you're feeling emotionally dysregulated. You know, your feelings matter too, and, and what you're going through matters too. Yeah. Well, very best of luck with the ending of, of Imogen's journey. And, um- Thank you ... w- when baby number three comes along, baby number three's story as well. And, um, yeah, thank you for being part of the breastfeeding support world and, um, for being an ABM-er and, uh, I will look out for you at the next conference. And, and, uh- Thank you ... yeah, we'll go and go over to Emma's stall and, uh, and take a pic. Um, thank you so much for your time today. [00:44:25] Hannah: No, thank you. [00:44:30] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapicketibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.