Jo's story - neurodivergent, taking 5 weeks to transfer milk, feeding at 2

This transcript is AI generated. [00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, [00:00:40] Jo: breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk [00:00:46] Emma Pickett: Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm talking to Jo, Jo from Cheshire, who is the mum of the lovely Cecilia. We might call her Ceci just to make life a little bit easier. But, um, she's two, not Jo the mum, but C- Cecilia the nursling. And we're gonna be talking about life breastfeeding a two-year-old, and Jo also has a diagnosis for autism as well that we'll be talking about. Jo, are you happy with that introduction as its way to start us off? Yeah. Tell us about life breastfeeding Ceci. So she's two right now. When did she turn two? [00:01:18] Jo: Uh, she turned two last week. [00:01:20] Emma Pickett: Ooh, happy birthday. [00:01:21] Jo: I know. She's still talking about her birthday with the candles and the cake and the balloons. [00:01:29] Emma Pickett: Oh, happy birthday. So before you had Ceci, did you think you'd be breastfeeding a two-year-old? What were your feelings about breastfeeding before you got pregnant? [00:01:38] Jo: Um, so it's, even though I've not had a lot of, like, exposure in terms of, like, friends and family, I've kind of always known that I wanted to breastfeed. It's just always what I'd imagined motherhood to look like for me. So I kind of always knew I wanted to do at least a year, and then the further we kinda got into it, I was like, "Okay, I'd love to make it to two." And I've not really got any kind of goals now. Like, I mean, of course things shift sometimes depending on what's going on and how you're feeling, but where I'm at right now, it's still, it works so well for us, and I'm in this present moment just happy to let her have control of that in terms of when she's ready. You know, there's definitely been points where, like, things felt like a lot, and I was getting very overstimulated and switched out, but I've kinda just been a little bit more boundaried, and that's helped it feel a lot more sustainable for me. [00:02:39] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. Well, I'd love to ask you a bit more about that in a minute. So you've let go of the goals. You're just gonna see how it goes. And I, it's really interesting to hear you say you didn't know many people who breastfed. You didn't have a lot of history around breastfeeding, but it was something you always needed, knew you were going to do. Wish we could kind of pull open your brain and work out where that came from. Did you know anybody who breastfed? Was there any goals, any sort of, uh, you know, icons or, or role models in your life? Where, where do you think it come, came from? [00:03:06] Jo: The only thing I can sort of, like, think of in terms of, like, what's maybe influenced me, so my auntie, um, she has, my cousin, three children. Um, and she breastfed, so I do have some very early memories of kind of, like, been exposed to that and asking questions. So I don't know if that experience just made it feel really normal for me. And then I think around the time I was a teenager, I, on my Facebook at the time, I was seeing a lot of like stuff around like women shouldn't have to sit in bathrooms with their babies 100%, and it just made so much sense to me. Like, you know, I mean, I think even back then, I don't think I'd ever actually seen like anyone in public breastfeed, but like that just really strongly resonated with me, the fact that this is literally what, like this is our biological function of our breasts. Like- Yeah ... why is there so much taboo? [00:04:07] Emma Pickett: When you put it like that, it obviously, it sounds ludicrous. If, you know, if an alien was listening to this conversation, they'd be like, "Why are they talking as if she wasn't going to always breastfeed? Why, why is that Emma woman talking as if it's surprising that somebody wants to breastfeed if they haven't had a role model?" Of course, you do what your biology's intending you to do. You know, no one says, "Oh, you know, you don't get to walk if nobody tells you how to walk." I'm pretty sure little people will, will still walk whatever happens. Um, you know, it is your biological, you know, s- future. It is what you're designed to do. And yeah, you're right. Why should, why should we... Thank you for prodding me and reminding me why should we assume that someone needs a role model necessarily to be able to, to give f- to fulfill their default. [00:04:47] Jo: I think as well what plays into that as well, like I'm very like, I can be very literal. I think that's definitely part of like my neurodivergence. So, you know, just for clarity for the audience, like I'm diagnosed autism, still awaiting assessment for ADHD. But I've always been very like literal and like I've always questioned maybe what like societal norms and beliefs. So there's a lot of things that just really don't make sense to me, and I think I, I do really question just because it's like maybe the done thing in like Western culture. Does, does that make it the right thing? Like [00:05:27] Emma Pickett: That makes a lot of sense. You've got boobs. They're right in front of you. You know they're gonna make milk. Why would you not be using them? Can I ask you a bit more about your diagnosis? How old were you when you were diagnosed? Um, do you say you're autistic or do you say you have autism? [00:05:39] Jo: Um, either or really. I'm not really, um, you know, I don't, I don't mind either. Um, so I was... It was only about a year ago, um, just over a year ago, I think in December. So, um, Ceci was still quite young uh, when I got my diagnosis. And it kinda came about, so when I was working with a therapist, this was prior to having her and being pregnant, it was kind of very softly, obviously sensitively mentioned to me, have I considered the fact that I could be neurodivergent? I did some sort of informal screening tests, and yeah, that was kind of the first thing that maybe prompted me to consider neurodivergence. And then when, when I had Ceci and met my health visitor, I'd had quite a few conversations with her, and I think she'd sort of picked up on the way that I fixate on things and the way that I think, being neurodivergent herself as well. She kind of, you know, not just outright like, "Hey, do you think you're like you could be really neurodivergent." It was, it was more like gentle and organic than that of her sort of suggestion, "Have you considered that?" And then I worked with another specialist health visitor, um, as a part of like the, the BABs. It's like a people struggling with their mental health postpartum. It's the bonding and attachment service. So I worked with them locally, and that health visitor then suggested it to me. So apparently I just have a really big like neurodivergent like banner above [00:07:17] Emma Pickett: me. Everyone's, everyone's waving flags at you. Okay. Yeah. Well, how did you feel to get that diagnosis? Was it something that felt, uh, like a relief? Was it something that felt like a kind of validation? How does it feel when that comes through? [00:07:29] Jo: I think like by the time I ended up having like an assessment, I think I'd already done a lot of that internal work in accepting it. Yeah, I think I'd already done a lot of it by the time the actual diagnosis came. And so for me it wasn't like... It, it was mainly just like a very positive thing, although it did feel validating, like maybe all those years that I was like blaming myself for just not like struggling socially and struggling, you know, with things relating to like executive dysfunction and, you know, s- blaming myself for finding certain social environments difficult and Why after every social interaction was I spending hours ruminating, losing sleep over maybe how I came across or how, you know, have I offended this person? Like, you know, just really picking apart the conversation. It, yeah, it made a lot of sense. It was like, okay, I'm, I'm not, like, defective. [00:08:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. [00:08:30] Jo: Uh, you know, my brain just works a little differently, and there's a lot of unlearning to do and unmasking. [00:08:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can totally understand that. And I think anyone who knows anything about autism will know that quite often women and girls will get di- diagnosed, diagnosis later in life because the masking and the social conditioning is so strong and overwhelming and, yeah, lots of people won't get diagnosed until late teens or adulthood. You, you mentioned that you'd had some mental health, um, struggles. Uh, if you're, if you're comfortable, we'll, we'll talk a bit more about that in a minute 'cause I don't think that's- Yeah ... unusual for somebody who is autistic and, and being a mum for the first time. Before we do that, let's go back a little bit to your pregnancy. Do you mind me asking, do you have a partner? Do you live with a partner? What's your home situation? [00:09:13] Jo: I do, yes. So, um, I've been with my partner since 2016, so it'll be, like, 10 years this year. [00:09:20] Emma Pickett: Oh, happy 10-year anniversary. Um- So you were pregnant with Ceci. You knew you were gonna breastfeed. Tell us about your, your birth and, and those early days. [00:09:30] Jo: Okay. So might w- be worth me zooming back a tiny bit to mention that we had quite a difficult, long conception journey. So, um, it took four, like, four and a half years before I did eventually fall pregnant. Okay. We were literally, like, we'd had fertility investigations. There was a huge delay because of what was going on with COVID, you know, in fertility services and stuff. So, um- [00:09:57] Emma Pickett: That's really rough timing. I, the, having to go through that journey during COVID. Oh, just losing those months and, and years, really rough. I'm so sorry that was your experience. So you had a fertility clinic who was supporting you? [00:10:09] Jo: Um, yeah, so we were just going through, like, the NHS pathway and, like, after the testing, and it was kind of, like, determined, um, I mean, so I have polycystic ovary syndrome, which is now named, like, PMOS, if I'm getting that right. Um, and my partner had, like, um, morphology issues, and they determined that, like, IVF was gonna be the only sort of pathway for us, and it was just a case of, like, being a couple of months out from that when we did naturally fall pregnant. [00:10:43] Emma Pickett: That must have been a bit of a shock after four and a half years. Yeah. I imagine that day when you got your... L- l- let's t- that moment back to you doing that pregnancy test. How did that, how did that feel to get that positive result? [00:10:53] Jo: I remember just being in complete shock, like, and I couldn't trust it either. I was like No. Like, it's I even requested my doctors do, like, a blood test because I just, I didn't feel like I could... I was obviously over the moon, but I didn't wanna get my hopes up just in case. [00:11:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Do you mind me asking, had you had losses prior to th- prior to CC? [00:11:13] Jo: Uh, no, thankfully not. Thank- Okay ... fortunately. [00:11:17] Emma Pickett: So it was literally your first ever positive pregnancy test, and holding that in your hand and saying to your partner, and as, that, what you're saying about not trusting it, I can completely understand that, that you just don't know when you can relax. Um, did you have that feeling of not quite trusting it throughout your pregnancy, or was there a point where you were able to kind of relax and lean into it? [00:11:37] Jo: I think I did struggle to relax. Like, I feel like maybe for the first, like, three months, every time I went to the toilet, I would check just in case. Like, in, in my head it was like, it was always worst case. Like, there was gonna be blood, that, you know, I was losing the pregnancy. And as I started to relax, like, you kind of have these mile- well, I anyway, have these milestones in my head of like, okay, we get to 12 weeks, and then we get to, like, viability, and then we get to, you know. And then sometimes I feel like, for me anyway, I was so focused on just getting to every milestone, you know, waiting to just kind of be like, "Phew, okay. It's happening." [00:12:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. " [00:12:15] Jo: We're safe now," type of thing. Um- But yeah, that, that was, that was difficult trying to just be with that information and with that excitement of the fact that we're finally getting this family that we'd dreamed of. [00:12:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And then tell me a little bit about your antenatal education. Did you get any breastfeeding classes or, or education? [00:12:36] Jo: Uh, yeah, so my... It was like locally. Um, I think it was like the infant feeding service did like a, um, like a workshop. There was literally just me and another girl that attended. Um- [00:12:50] Emma Pickett: A one-to-one virtually. That sounds quite good. Like- ... look, little exclusive class just for you. [00:12:58] Jo: I got to ask lots of questions. It was... That was good. Um, it-- the main focus was on breastfeeding, but they were just-- the, the session was designed to educate about, like, all ways to feed a baby. [00:13:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned about, you mentioned you used the word fixate earlier in a sort of negative context that- Mm that you were fixating on things postnatally. But obviously one of the things with neurodivergent, like n-neurodivergence that can be incredibly positive is fixation also means research and becoming an expert and really, really learning and reading and deep, deep dives into different subjects. Is that something that happened to you with breastfeeding? [00:13:35] Jo: Yeah, absolutely. Like I've... That fixation in a positive way has been a theme. I'll probably come back to that, so I don't, you know, go off too much on a tangent. But, um, yeah, I was very fixated with breastfeeding and birth education. You know, I felt like I did everything that I could have to stack the deck in my favor that it, things would be successful. You know, I've, I definitely have, like, an issue with not feeling in control as well. I feel like for me, having all that information makes me feel more prepared and helps with my anxiety around new situations. [00:14:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's probably true for, for everybody and on one level. Um- Mm-hmm you know, control comes through information, which is why I want people to be prepared. But I guess one of the scary things about birth is you never quite know what's gonna happen. Mm. There's always that element of uncertainty. And as you came to the birth, obviously I don't want to make any assumptions about what your autism is like, but, I mean, things like sensory environment and needing a certain environment for birth, is that something that you felt you needed to think really carefully about? [00:14:46] Jo: Yeah, absolutely. Like, my birth plan was like the Yellow Pages. I, I originally really wanted a home birth 'cause I just knew that I would be so much more relaxed at home. I felt like, you know, it would aid with that oxytocin and just being able to get in the right head space. Um- Unfortunately, around like 30 weeks then my blood pressure was measuring high, and then I think it was about 35 weeks I got diagnosed with preeclampsia. [00:15:13] Emma Pickett: Oh, no. I'm so sorry. [00:15:14] Jo: Yeah. Thank you. It's, it- That's [00:15:16] Emma Pickett: quite stressful. [00:15:17] Jo: Yeah. I, I technically could have still had a home birth out of guidance, but it just didn't feel sensible at that point from a safety perspective. Um, you know, as much as I really did want that home birth, but, you know, it, it didn't feel suitable. So yeah, I ended up, um, having to be induced early just because with medication they were just struggling to control my, my blood pressure. [00:15:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're in a hospital, on the labor ward in hospital, and so how old was Ceci when she was born? How many weeks was she? [00:15:49] Jo: Uh, so she was 37 plus 5. [00:15:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. Tell us about your birth. Tell us about that, those, that very first feed. What do you remember? [00:15:58] Jo: Um, so going back to the birth, I... It took five days, um, like different methods of induction. Um- [00:16:08] Emma Pickett: Wow, five days. Oh, Jo, that's, that's a blooming long time. So you didn't get a decent night's sleep for all that. You're just in hospital trying different things, what pessaries and all the different stuff, and it just wasn't happening. Oh, I'm so sorry. [00:16:21] Jo: Pretty much, yeah. So I mean, I think as well because like, you know, September's like the busiest time of year. Um, that's what they said anyway. Um, I did at the time like inquire about like what's, what's like the furthest this can go to, like how many days before I can escalate it and, you know, maybe be transferred to another hospital where they can, you know, 'cause they... It, it was just a case of like staff ratios and having to go through like processes of like this is what we have to do, try first, and that's what we have to try next. Like you said, with like the, the pessary and, God, it was so long ago. What else was there? You know, I, I had my waters broken, but I had to wait so long for like someone to be available, um, for like closer monitoring on the la- on the labor ward rather than the induction bay. But yeah, in hindsight, I just don't think like... Obviously it was medically necessary because of keeping my health stable, um- Yeah ... with the preeclampsia. But like I just don't think my body was ready or she was ready. [00:17:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. [00:17:22] Jo: So we ended up on a, a drip. Was it pic- pito- uh, I can't remember the name of it, but- Yep, [00:17:27] Emma Pickett: Pitocin. Yep, [00:17:28] Jo: yep ... that's the one. [00:17:29] Emma Pickett: So that's, that's a long time to be in a hospital with bright lights and people coming and going, and being monitored and being attached to stuff. That's rough for anybody. Uh, I mean, obviously your partner, uh, is able to be with you 'cause you've just come to the end presumably of, of COVID restrictions. But that is a really, really rough time. I'm so sorry that that happened. Let's, let's go to the positives of Ceci arriving in the world. How did it feel to have her in your arms? And can you... What, do you remember anything about those early breastfeeds? [00:17:56] Jo: Um, yeah. So well, she, she had to be delivered by emergency C-section, so she wasn't coping well with the contractions from the drip, and we lost her heart rate briefly. So all I remember is like red button goes off, been took into theater. Thankfully her heart rate did come back up, um, when we got in, so I was... It was able to go down from a category one to a category two. Um, so I was able to be awake when s- when she was born. I mean, that experience was completely like terrifying. But when she was born and, you know, it felt like a lifetime before they gave her me 'cause they were helping her breathe. Um, but like when I actually did meet her, it was like the world literally stood still. It was such a surreal feeling. Like, it was kind of like- I would do everything and more again. I'd go through all this 10 more times just to get to this moment, to get to you. [00:18:56] Emma Pickett: Aw. That's really lovely- ... to hear you say that. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a real sort of dilemma, isn't there, where people say, "Oh, you've had a healthy baby. All that birth now, you know, you mustn't focus on the negatives. You mu- mustn't focus on, you know, the rough stuff. Just focus on the positives." Do you feel you've been able to let go of the, of the birth, or is it something that is, is sticking with you? Obviously, some people are genuinely traumatized by having the kind of birth that you're describing. Obviously, I'm not an expert in this, and I don't wanna put you on the spot, but do you f- do you feel like you have come to a place of peace now, or is it something that's still sticking with you? [00:19:30] Jo: So I feel like because I had therapy not long after, so, um, of the therapist that I'd saw a few years prior and had, like, EDMR therapy with through the NHS, I contacted, like, privately, and I had a few sessions with her, and I think, like, that, that was, like, so key because You know, it was, say, like, about, about, I think it was just over a month later, and, like, I was definitely having, like, symptoms, like PTSD symptoms. Like- Mm ... not being able to sleep and, you know, kind of just mentally replaying that scene, and just been terrified for a long time that she was gonna be taken from me, something was gonna happen. I was very hypervigilant. Like, I wouldn't even, like, leave her in a room. I struggled to, like, let my partner, like, look after her on her own, and not because I didn't trust him, but just 'cause I felt there was something from that birth trauma that meant if I can't see her, something bad is gonna happen. [00:20:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. [00:20:34] Jo: I think it's 'cause, like, that period of, like, when I asked if she was okay once, you know, she was born, she was delivered. I asked, you know, "Oh, is she okay?" And they said, "We're helping her breathe." So in the moment of that fear, in my head, that meant she can't breathe. Yeah. [00:20:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. [00:20:52] Jo: So as that time elapsed, it was kind of like, yeah, that thinking that I was gonna lose her, and I think that did stick with me a lot, and I think having that therapy helped massively. [00:21:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Gosh, I'm so glad that you had that relationship with a previous therapist because, you know, lots of people would think, "Oh, no, this must be postpartum depression. This must be, must be, you know, you know, psychosis, or there's something else is going on." And the fact that you were able to say, "Actually, this f- this is PTSD. This looks like it's trauma. Let's get that EDMR therapy," that's, that's just brilliant that that was something that you were able to kind of join the dots of. And for anyone who's never h- who hasn't heard of EDMR, tell us a little bit more about it. What, what's it like to have it? [00:21:37] Jo: It's really different to, like, any other, like, talking therapy like CBT or, like, counseling. It's like... Obviously, I'm not an expert in the technical explanations, but I can, I guess, talk about what it's been like for me 'cause I've had quite a lot. So when I've done that with my therapist, I'm kind of either focusing on, like, the emotion that's happening when going back into those traumatic memories. [00:22:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're replaying the memory in your head and presumably talking it through as well, um, and sitting in that space, in that moment. Okay. [00:22:11] Jo: And it's kind of like, the way it's looked for me anyway is, like, the present day me has kind of gone back to that scene and, like, I know my therapist has talked before about there's something called re-scripting. So obviously, you can't actually change what's happened, but you can kind of, like, walk into that scene as if it's a movie set and kind of tell that younger version of you, like, you know, reassure them, give them the words they needed in that moment. And, like, I found that, like, incredibly powerful to be able to- Yeah Witness that in my younger versions of myself. And then, yeah, it's, it's just, I, I don't understand the full technicalities of how it works, but it's, it's incredible. Like she- [00:22:55] Emma Pickett: You don't have to ... some- You just can be the beneficiary of it. Yeah. And something's happening with your eyes. Tell me about what's going on with your eyes in those moments when you're doing that reliving. There's some, there's some eyelid stuff happening, isn't there? I mean, don't worry if you don't know all the technical stuff. Yeah. Just tell us how it feels to be at the receiving end. [00:23:10] Jo: Yeah, so she'll be kind of like, I know some therapists use electric devices, some use like sound devices, but my therapist specifically kind of was using her hand, waving from side to side, and she's monitoring my expressions for like small changes, and then she'll ask me what's coming up. Um, and I, I found it really like cathartic 'cause of, you know, I've also had it for like working through like childhood trauma as well, not just like the birth trauma. But for someone who's like struggled with their mental health since like childhood, it's been like the only thing for me anyway that's actually worked. Like for me it's like life-changing. Like I, I would recommend it to anyone, um, especially if they've tried other approaches and they've found just talking about it hasn't helped. [00:23:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Thank you for sharing that I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells a story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self-weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also, we sometimes have needs too. Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations, like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond, that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. Let's go back to those moments when you're meeting Ceci. She's well, she's breathing. Were you able to do a fairly early breastfeed or did you need to kind of recover from the C-section? [00:26:12] Jo: Yeah. So, um, as soon as they were able to, they did put her on my chest and, uh, that was just an incredible feeling. Um, so she was on my skin for a while before we kind of attempted it. Um, I could get into this a bit later 'cause again, I don't wanna jump too much, but, um, it seemed like she was kinda struggling. So my, it was actually my midwife who'd come into theater with me, was kind of like, obviously I couldn't move my hands really, so she was kind of helping me hand express and she was kinda just like m- yamming it off the I don't know what the technical term is, like just, you know, tasting it off the end of the nipple. So she did get- Okay ... some colostrum. [00:26:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. So she's having a bit of a lick, but Ceci's not actually latching. Is that what, is that what you're describing? [00:26:58] Jo: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. [00:27:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. And it sounds like you had some midwife support early on, and you had a relationship with somebody who was able to kind of keep an eye on what's going on. Is she gonna be latching soon? What's happening? Tell us, w- did Ceci need some, some support? I'm just wondering if there's something to do with the birth or something to do with anatomy. What, what happened? [00:27:17] Jo: Yeah. So, um- Do you want me to go through this like what happened or what kind of like once we knew what was going on first, if that makes sense? [00:27:26] Emma Pickett: What, you choose. You tell me as if we- Okay ... we're having a conversation. You've, we've just met. You tell me what, what was going [00:27:32] Jo: on. Okay. So, um, we'd done quite a few more kind of attempts, and obviously as someone who's never breastfed a baby before, you know, you don't really know what a latch should feel like. So I kind of could tell her mouth was round it, but I didn't really know if she was getting much. Um, so the first, she was born at 3:36 in the morning. That following night she was just, so we were still in hospital, she was just screaming and screaming and screaming, and I kept putting her to the breast and, you know, she kept like in our previous attempts just falling asleep. And then I later found out that was because the milk transfer wasn't, was too slow, wasn't happening, and that's why she just kept falling asleep. But at the time, for someone who was like literally brand new to it, I just thought, "Oh, she's like feeding to sleep. Maybe she has got some type of thing." You know, there was like a little bit of support in like the hospital with like helping to latch and stuff. But yeah, we were all just, we were just fumbling through at this point. We didn't really know- Okay ... what was happening. [00:28:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. So not necessarily getting the support you need and it's, and someone not really watching her feed and helping you understand what milk transfer looks like. No. Despite all your research, there's, there's a bit of a gap missing here, isn't there, in the kind of support that you should have been getting? [00:28:51] Jo: Yeah, yeah. [00:28:52] Emma Pickett: How did Ceci get on? I'm a bit worried that you're gonna tell me she started to not produce nappies and, and lose weight. What, what happened next? [00:28:59] Jo: Basically, like when that night that she was just screaming in the hospital, I, you know, kinda spoke to some of the midwives there like, "We're just really not sure what's happening. I'm trying to, you know, I've been trying to feed her. I'm not sure how much she is getting." And they kind of were, chalked it up, said, "Well, you know, she's still learning and she's got a very small mouth, so she might not be getting very much." Um, you know, so it was just a case of like emergency bottle at that point, which like, I, I really didn't wanna do, but like at this point I f- I had no choice. I didn't feel coerced or anything negative towards the staff. I just, it's just really not what I wanted. Um, but Then here's my child screaming because, you know, we think she's hungry. So I, I couldn't not. So even though it wasn't like the plan- Yeah ... I needed to get food in her. [00:29:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. For sh- I totally understand. And were you getting support to express or, or use a breast pump? [00:29:55] Jo: Yeah, so I was, um, you know, there was staff that sort of showed me how, you know, like how the breast pump works and, and we were only in hospital for like two days really. Um, and I think probably because of like the stress of it all and then how traumatic the birth was, like, you know, I remember maybe that second day just having like barely any output and like, you know, antenatally, like I was producing a lot of colostrum. I mean, I know now like that that's not always like indicative of actually how much you will produce, but I think like, because I was producing so much before she was born, I, I think I thought, "Oh yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm good here for supply." Like, it wasn't something I was like particularly worried about. Um, I remember just feeling so like crushed and had this, probably my first experience of mum guilt of like, I felt like I'd kind of already lost a lot in terms of like what the bi- how the birth would go, and then with how difficult the conception journey was. Like, it's like breastfeeding became like so much more important. Like, it felt like I couldn't afford to lose this too. [00:31:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That, I think I've heard lots of people who've had difficulties with conception say that. And so you had the double whammy of the conception journey and the traumatic birth. You really wanted breastfeeding to be something that, that felt, you know, you'd completed your goals and, and done what your body needed to do. Um- But looking back, obviously you know if she's not attaching and transferring milk, it's, it's gonna make it difficult for your milk supply to fully develop. You know logically that's not your fault, but brains don't always- Yeah ... work logically in those moments. Did you start to get some help investigating what was going on with her? [00:31:34] Jo: Uh, yeah, so the, when we left the hospital, you know, we kind of told them, "We're gonna keep trying. We're gonna get support from the local feeding team." But they couldn't discharge us until they knew that she was getting food. So we said, "We're gonna supplement with formula while we figure it out." Um, so we had quite a lot of support from, like, the, the feeding teams and stuff, like, you know, that we attended clinics. And I was basically at this point, as soon as we got home, I worked really hard to get my supply back up. I did lots and lots of skin on skin. So for the first five weeks of our life, I still was putting her to the breast to sort of keep those instincts. So my midwife, who I'd seen on the home birth team, kind of gave me that advice of, like, still put her to the breast to keep those instincts while you, while you're figuring this out, even though you're pumping. So yeah, like, we probably dropped the formula maybe after the first week when my supply was, like, kind of recovered from all that. You know, it kind of just tapered off. Like, I'd produced some, so it, you know, we, we just tapered off from expressed milk and formula really. [00:32:40] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you were, you, you'd reduced using the formula, but you are now expressing a, a full amount after that first week- Yeah while still getting her to come to the breast. And she's not for, so for five weeks she's not really transferring milk. Is that what you're describing? [00:32:55] Jo: Yeah. So basically the way I'd, like, through all the support with, like, the, you know, that we had received, like, they'd said, "Okay, try breast compressions." Um, so, uh, what I later was, like, found out, um, was basically I was just kind of, like, fire hosing it into her mouth with breast compressions, so she wasn't able to actually transfer milk successfully herself at all. [00:33:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. Wow, okay. So I totally assumed, because this is often the way it goes, that you were gonna tell me, "And she had a tongue tie", because so many stories have someone telling me, "There's gonna, there's gonna be a tongue tie." So it's actually a relief, if that's not a weird thing to say, to hear that this is actually a story that doesn't necessarily go down that road. And it was just about you having a heck of a lot of milk, and the way she was latching and, you know, the, the, the fact that your volume was so significant she didn't move into a milk transfer pattern because that milk was flying into her mouth. Um, that, I mean, that is something that Sorry, what were you gonna tell me? Go on [00:34:01] Jo: Sorry, just, um, sh- so we did find out that it was a tongue tie. Oh, okay. That was the reason. So spoiler alert, you know, like, blood [00:34:10] Emma Pickett: show. Let's cut all of that. Let's go, let's go back and we'll edit all that o- other pr- stuff out. Um- Okay. So there w- there was a tongue tie. Okay. [00:34:17] Jo: There was, yeah. [00:34:18] Emma Pickett: Apologies. So- I don't mean to so suggest that- No, that's fine ... she's not entitled to have a tongue tie. She obviously f- she is. Um, you, you just, you, you kept that one un- under, under wraps for a little bit. Okay. So- [00:34:27] Jo: I'm kind of going chronologically from my knowledge of what, where we were at, if that makes sense. Okay. Okay. So that's the next part of the story. [00:34:34] Emma Pickett: So how many weeks old was she when that, when that assessment happened? [00:34:38] Jo: So she was about Four weeks old. So going right back with that, when, you know when, like, the pediatrician or whoever it is that comes 'round and does, like, a check with your baby, checks their reflexes, basically that she was a day old or something. I kind of knew at that point, like, something... I didn't know why or what, what was happening, but I, I kind of had this inkling that, like, something feeding right isn't right. And I asked the pediatrician, like, "Does she have a tongue tie?" Because I'd accidentally, maybe on Instagram in my deep diving of trying to look through all this information about breastfeeding, came across tongue tie symptoms. Didn't really think that much of it, but I had a quick read, and it just, it, the question in my mind just flagged up, could it be a tongue tie? Is that why she's, this isn't going how it should. Um, she wasn't qualified to make that diagnosis, but she had a look and said, "Oh, maybe a little bit." Okay, so yeah. And nothing else from that. [00:35:36] Emma Pickett: You'd assume, wouldn't you, that somebody doing the postnatal check would look for that. When they look in the baby's mouth, you'd assume that's what they're looking for. But it is not part of a standard check, and you can be a very experienced pediatrician and have had zero training in tongue tie or understanding how, you know, tongue function affects lactation. So I'm almost impressed that at least she said maybe, 'cause the ones that go, "No, no, it's not a thing"- ... you know, those are the people that worry us even more. At least she's g- leaving some uncertainty there. But wouldn't it have been nice if she'd said, "Let me refer you to this person for a proper diagnosis"? [00:36:07] Jo: Yeah, exactly. " [00:36:08] Emma Pickett: Let me refer you for a proper assessment." Or wouldn't it have been nice if that pediatrician had actually been trained in something that's flipping important. Sorry, Jo, I will try not to- ... rant on your episode. What's more important than how we feed our babies? What is more important than, than, than the feeding a baby that's one day old? Why do we live in a world where people can be experts in baby health and still not know about this? It's just bananas, [00:36:32] Jo: isn't it? I know. Even if she would've said, "Look, it's out of my scope, I can't tell you, but I know someone who can," and like you said, referred me on, that would've been absolutely fine. Like, I would've respected the honesty and the fact that there was a pathway for parents with that concern. But nope. [00:36:48] Emma Pickett: So weeks on, you still are, you know, you didn't get a diagnosis for four weeks. That's four weeks of expressing, three weeks of exclusive pumping, which is such an achievement and such a hard thing to do. I mean, taking you back to those three weeks when you're exclusively pumping, I mean, you are, what, presumably pumping, right, you got quite a lot of milk by the sounds of it because it's flying down her throat. Yeah. But you presumably are pumping 'round the clock. That must've been pretty full on. [00:37:11] Jo: It was so intense. And the very brief overlap period with, like, triple feeding, that was, like, pure hell. From when a, especially from, like, an executive dysfunction, like, element. Like, I literally had to rely on so much in terms of, like... And there was so much anxiety around, like, you know, oh, what if I, like, run out of milk and I've not created enough? I mean, thankfully, like- You know, I did get the advice I did, and I protected my supply with pumping. But, you know, it was always that, oh, I need to, I need to have at least one or two more, like, bags made up or, you know, because I've, we've kind of proven she's not really, like, able to get much from my breast. Like, and eventually I said after like four weeks, maybe week three, got to the point, okay, she can get some directly from me, but only if I'm like breast compressing, fire hosing it into her mouth essentially. [00:38:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you got that diagnosis, and then she had the procedure done? [00:38:05] Jo: Yeah. So we got the, um, diagnosis done by, like, the, um, fantastic lady at the, at like our NHS, like, pathway, you know, at the infant feeding team. But unfortunately they just weren't set up to do the procedure. So they could have referred me to, like, the team at the hospital, but the wait was like 12 weeks. [00:38:26] Emma Pickett: That is just ludicrous, isn't it? That's, that's a different baby. That's a different world. There's... And imagine trying to keep your supply going for 12 weeks. That's just absolutely ludicrous. Ugh. [00:38:36] Jo: Yeah. For me that, it just felt like that was too risky to lose, like, the breastfeeding relationship and like, you know, what if by that point she developed a preference for bottles because they're so much easier, you know what I mean, like to, to use. So yeah, like that point we decided to like pull money from our wedding fund to have the procedure done privately. [00:38:59] Emma Pickett: So you're talking several hundred pounds that not everyone is gonna be able to find. Um, but you were able to luckily. And did you- Yeah ... notice an immediate change in the way she breastfed? [00:39:09] Jo: It took a couple of days. Yeah. Like I think the, the way they explained is like she, she's learning how to use these muscles. So, um, we found out that, like I said, the tongue tie was very severe. I think it was very severe posterior. So I mean, she wasn't even able to open her mouth wide enough To fully sort of latch. But yeah, like a couple of days it was, you know, I could tell she was getting very tired. Obviously she's using muscles that she's never used before. But after a few days we, like, we were just kind of flying really. Like, it probably only took another week of maybe getting rid of, like, pumping and bottles. I think I was a little bit nervous, probably understandably, to fully get off the bottles because obviously when you're breastfeeding you can't quantify how much they're having. You just kind of have to trust that they're getting what they need, and they're gonna tell you when they need more. [00:39:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's impressive that it only took you a week, as you say, 'cause a lot of people, you know, breastfeeding has been this struggle, and to start trusting it and believing it is quite- Mm difficult to do that. So that's kind of amazing that you were able to get to that place. So you were then exclusively breastfeeding from, uh, six, seven weeks, something like that, um- [00:40:17] Jo: Yeah ... [00:40:18] Emma Pickett: after all that hard work. Blimey. Um, that's- ... intense. And, and you carried, did you carry on having quite a lot of milk? [00:40:26] Jo: Yeah, so I think it took a while for my supply to calm down. I think, like, um, you know, 'cause at one point, like when I had a follow-up with that, um, the tongue-tie clinic who gave me some additional lactation support as well, like I'd asked, "Oh, you know, do I have an oversupply?" 'Cause she was kind of spluttering a lot. And they said, like, from everything we talked about, like it's, it's, it's probably just it's, it's taking a bit longer for my supply to calm down 'cause we've started kind of our feeding journey a little bit later. So yeah, that did sort of calm down, but I definitely had enough. [00:40:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, and I guess the spluttering could also be connected to her anatomy as well. It's difficult for babies who've had tongue restriction to necessarily- Mm ... you know, manage it, to swallow and g- groove their tongue and, and we often will get, um, spluttering because of tongue issues as well. So you carry on exclusively breastfeeding, and tell us anything else crop up for you in that first year, how, how did things continue? You mentioned that you were starting to fixate. Was that connected to feeding or was that coming from somewhere else? So other kinds of safety issues. [00:41:29] Jo: Um, I think, like, how much I fixate on things is kind of like, I'd say it's a bit of like an intersection between, like, my complex PTSD from my childhood and then how my autism, how that, like, collides, I guess. I think there's kind of multiple, multiple factors at play there really. It can be, like, a really positive thing in a way because I feel like if I wasn't so fixated on breastfeeding and so determined to make it work, like there was no other option in my brain, like, would we have got this far? Like, I, I don't know, that I'm still breastfeeding her now and she's two, and no plans to, like, stop anytime soon. You know, I kind of like applied those principles as well with, like, making changes to get healthier, to modify my lifestyle to conceive, and then, like, with my- Like I briefly touched upon like my, my, my healing journey with like, you know, my mental health and stuff as well. So I think that ability to, to hyperfixate to the extent that I can is, is really positive, but sometimes it's kind of like there's no off button. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it can come at a cost. [00:42:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Thank you for sharing that. And you knew at some point that you needed to get back in touch with your therapist. Now, obviously, your therapist was helping you round about the same time you were having all these breastfeeding struggles. You had started to get your support to deal with your birth and, and, and work out what, what was going on with your birth trauma, which is also bloody impressive that you, you had the ability to- organize that therapy and realize you needed that while you were struggling with that hugely overwhelming day-to-day feeding struggle. Um, you know, that is, that is super impressive that you had the capacity to, to look back and go, "Hang on, I need this professional help", right in the middle of everything. And then you carried on having therapy as, as Ceci was coming up to one. You said that around the age of one you had quite a lot of work as well. [00:43:22] Jo: Uh, yeah, so I did. I kind of just had a few private sessions around the birth trauma that I've, I've kind of, you know, re- recently started kind of working through, um, a few things, not, not related to motherhood, just, um... So I'd done like the bulk of like, I guess, the work that we wanted to do a few years prior, but like I've recently started again with the same therapist on working on like what's left, if that makes sense. Like- [00:43:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Motherhood can bring up lots of issues, can't it? I'm not asking you to- Yeah. ... share anything that doesn't feel comfortable, but- Yeah it brings up lots of stuff around our own parenting experiences, you know, of being a child or seeing our own mother, realizing the choices that our mother made or our parents made. All sorts of stuff will come up. Um, and it's often the time in life when you're least, you've least got the capacity to afford private therapy or to have the time to have therapy. Do you mind me asking, does your therapist let Ceci in the room as well, or do you have to have childcare when you have therapy? [00:44:19] Jo: Yeah, so I have to have like childcare. So, um, my partner's like self-employed and he started taking that day off or like part of that day off just to, you know, so, so he can look after her while I have my therapy really. [00:44:33] Emma Pickett: Okay, great. So let's talk about breastfeeding past the age of one then. So toddler Ceci- [00:44:39] Jo: Oh, sorry. [00:44:40] Emma Pickett: Oh, go on. [00:44:40] Jo: I mean, I just realized as well, I've done that thing where I've missed something out, so, um Once you take it [00:44:45] Emma Pickett: back, tell us. [00:44:46] Jo: Going back to in the first year, so at around like four-ish months, three, four-ish months, she started having like really weird bowel movements. She was very gassy. I mean, she was very colicky as a baby as well, like when she was a bit younger. So I went to see the feeding team again, and it was all a bit of a blur to be honest, but long story short, we figured out that she had CMPA as well. [00:45:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. Blimey, you're ticking a lot of boxes here. Okay. [00:45:12] Jo: Uh, literally I'm like the poster child right now- for complex breastfeeding relationships. Um- [00:45:19] Emma Pickett: So were you supported to go on an elimination diet? Is that what happened next? [00:45:23] Jo: Yeah, I was, yeah. So, um, went on an elimination diet, then obviously reintroduced that. So basically I did the milk ladder because she, it was before she was on solids. [00:45:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. [00:45:33] Jo: Um, so yeah, we were able to like confirm- The CMPA diagnosis as well [00:45:40] Emma Pickett: Okay. Are you still dairy-free now? Is she dairy-free? What's happened now with, with her diet? [00:45:45] Jo: Yeah, so, um, we're both dairy-free. We do actually need to start the milk ladder for her. Um, I think sometimes, like, I just struggle to, like, c- I think this is kind of where my autism's coming in, like, I struggle to quantify it, so obviously you can, like, either make your own food or you can, like, buy recommended products with, um, that are lower down on the milk ladder. But it's kind of like, it feels very vague to me to say, like, "Oh, well just half of a biscuit." Like, it's like how many milligrams is that? Like, how do I quantify that? And then how do I, like... Yeah, so I think something about that sort, like, I guess held me back a little bit on it. [00:46:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. Have you got anyone supporting you? Is there anyone t- to talk you through that? [00:46:27] Jo: Uh, not currently, no. But I think it probably is something I, I do need to look into. I mean, I'm kind of, like, supplementing and then she's kind of obviously getting calcium through me, and then she's got, like, alternative kind of fortified milk. So I'm not particularly worried about that either of us could be deficient but, you know, it would make life a lot easier and- [00:46:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And she may grow out of it. As, and I'm sure you're aware, lots of children- Yeah ... do grow out of, um, CMPA as they get older. So, um, yeah, I hope you c- manage to get someone to help you through that, the milk ladder. 'Cause I can understand if you, if you know you might give your child something that could affect them negatively, it doesn't feel very instinctive as a mother to say, "Eat this thing that may cause you pain and distress." It's, it's a funny process to go through, isn't it? So having someone to hold your hand- Yeah ... even if it's another parent. I mean, there are Facebook groups for parents and who, who may, there may be a really experienced parent who can talk you through it maybe and hold your hand metaphorically. So, um, maybe there's someone out there who can support you through that. Tell us about life breastfeeding toddler Ceecee. You mentioned earlier that you put some boundaries in place. Tell us about how that went. Was there a time when things started to really feel a bit much and you needed to make changes? Talk us through that. [00:47:42] Jo: Yeah. So t- since she's been a toddler, I think, I know you've spoke about it before, like, on your Instagram, uh, like, on your podcast and on your Instagram, like, about, like, the communication buzz that they get. It's like how empowering that asking is. [00:47:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. [00:47:55] Jo: You know? So I, I think we definitely went through that 'cause she felt like a bit of a newborn once she started becoming verbal. [00:48:02] Emma Pickett: Yep, the love of asking. Yeah. It's, they don't often, often even want the full flipping feed. They'll just ask and then feed for, like, 10 seconds. And that, that, the asking was the bit I wanted then. Uh, or asking for the other side as well. The milk is free, so. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, that, the, the empowerment that comes from that is, uh, yeah, definitely a thing that I think really hel- is helpful for people to identify. So when that was happening then, did you think, "Oh, hang on, I need to kind of make some changes here"? [00:48:26] Jo: Um, at that point, I'm, I'm gonna be honest, I kind of, I didn't know how, so I just kind of, like- Push through it in terms of, like, my own discomfort. So it probably got to about, like, just after 18 months, and that's when I kind of was getting a little bit burnt out with just feeling very touched out, v- very overstimulated. And that's when I started to kind of push back a little bit and say, like, "Oh, we'll have milk after we have lunch," or, "When Mama's finished doing this task", or whatever. You know, I st- I still feel like it was still, like, difficult for me in a way to kind of put those boundaries in place. I think, like, if you've never really been modeled boundaries- [00:49:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah [00:49:13] Jo: that can be tricky. It's a bit of, like, you're kinda learning on the fly on the opposite end of that dynamic. [00:49:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's n- it's difficult, isn't it? As you say, if you've never seen it and, and part of you doesn't want your child to be upset. You want to meet your child's needs. So the instinct to say, "Actually, sweetie, we're gonna have milk later", you have to really, really practice self-care in those moments, don't you, and realize the importance of- Yeah of looking after yourself and how that may mean you can end up breastfeeding for longer. So you started to say no to her essentially, and started to kind of reduce the frequency of feeding. It worked 'cause here you are now and she's two. Yeah. If anyone, if y- if anyone's listening and they're right in the middle of that feeling so overwhelmed and needing to change something, what would you say to that person? [00:49:58] Jo: I would absolutely say to them that, like, you know what? S- something similar I've heard you say as well, like, give yourself permission. Like, if you need to look after you, that is so valid and, like, it's the relationship you matter to in the relationship, and it's so much better for that long-term sustainability of it. Because if you reach a point where you're so burnt out, like, you may decide potentially that you're done, and maybe you could have breastfed longer- [00:50:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... [00:50:28] Jo: you know, if, if you were able to be comfortable with being uncomfortable, if that makes sense, with putting those boundaries in place. You know, I do feel like sometimes you do need to have that energy because you're gonna deal with the kickback You know, if you're obviously, like, changing something, if things have always been a certain way, like, you know, your child is probably gonna be upset about it. And, like, and that's uncomfortable, and that can be hard. And that does require energy as well because to hold space for all them feelings, it, you know, it can feel like a lot if y- you know, if you're pretty depleted already. But I'd say it's completely worth it. You, you matter too, and you're actually doing a great job of, of t- of teaching what boundaries are, and that, like, the relationship doesn't fall apart because you put boundaries in place, and, like, you can be sad, and that's okay. [00:51:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, round of applause for Jo. I totally agree with everything you just said. You exp- you expressed it so beautifully. And, and if you don't put those boundaries in place and continue being burnt out, you know, y- that's not helping your child at the end of the day either. Um, you know, to, to feed reluctantly and resentfully, gritting your teeth, they pick up on that. They sense that. They know that. So, so it's not like you can, you know, there's... You can feed joyfully and happily if you've given up and decided to breastfeed anyway. So if you can keep the breastfeeds that you do positive for both of you, it's far more likely to mean a positive end to that breastfeeding relationship. And as you say, I regularly meet people who end breastfeeding completely rather than put boundaries in place 'cause they can't work out how- Mm-hmm ... to put the boundaries in place. So they think a complete end is easier, and, you know, uh, often it's something they come to regret because it's, you're losing something that really- Mm could have been modified. So, so now she's, she's two, what's a sort of typical 24 hours for your feeding at the moment? [00:52:16] Jo: Ooh, so she, she still does feed a lot, to be fair, but I think compared to, like, every 20 minutes, it's it's a lot better. Like, so usually, so we still co-sleep, so that's usually how she starts her day. Um, she usually wakes me up asking for milk, and then we'll go downstairs. I'll make breakfast. Uh, usually a sort of after, after the waking up feed, that's the, the first one after she's ate, she has milk. Um, usually the next one, unless there's been any, like, major frustrations or falls, um, where she needs that regulation, is, like, for her nap time, she, like, 99.9% of the time feeds to sleep. [00:53:00] Emma Pickett: Yep. Super common. [00:53:02] Jo: Yeah. It's a strong sleep association, isn't it? Um, and then, like, depending on what we're doing that day, in the afternoon, like, you know, if we're out, I find that she has a lot less milk, I think because she's just so occupied and interacting with the world and exploring. But if we're in the house, like, sometimes You know, I think it can be a bit of a boredom thing at times. Um, but it depends what I'm doing as well. Like, if I'm, like, I don't know, cleaning the floor or, like, you know, like, on my laptop sometimes and I'm doing something important, I will sort of push back and say, "Okay, well, when mama has finished this, we can have milk." And sometimes she's still not very happy about that. Sometimes she still gets upset. But like we were talking about, like, I, I matter in the relationship too, and, like, I don't wanna feel resentful, like I'm being forced against my will, my boob out, like Yeah. You [00:53:57] Emma Pickett: know. Yeah. So there are moments when she's requesting and you're not immediately letting that feed happen. So depends on whether you're home or not as to the frequency of the feed, which I think a lot of people will relate to. And then how is she with eating? Happy with her eating, eating's been fine? [00:54:12] Jo: Sh- she's going through a little bit of a fussy phase at the moment. Like, uh, I don't know if it's maybe developmental or, you know, she, she kind of, like, if I give her a meal, I always give her something that has at least one or two, like, safe foods that I know she will eat. But then I think it is reassuring as well that she is having the milk. So if she's had a few days where she's just been a bit picky and not really ate much, like she is getting something really nutritious as well if, like- [00:54:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... [00:54:38] Jo: the, the only thing she's want to eat all day is grapes. Like [00:54:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you know that your milk has protein. You know it's got vitamin A. You know, I mean, it's, it's a superfood. Yeah. So, as you say, it's, it's that, that safety net, especially if she's not well or if she's teething or if she's off her food, it's a huge reassurance. And, and describe for us a typical night, 'cause I think that's something that always people like, like to hear what's, what's normal for you. [00:55:01] Jo: That's, I feel that's a really hot topic, isn't it, for like breastfeeding parents of toddlers. Um, so I feel like some people might hate me actually, but she, she feeds to sleep and then probably, uh, since she's been about 19, 20 months, she's been like pretty much sleeping through till about 6:00 in the morning. [00:55:22] Emma Pickett: Okay. [00:55:23] Jo: Most of the time. [00:55:25] Emma Pickett: No, nobody's gonna hate you. Nobody's gonna hate you. And, and so it's so nice to hear a co-sleeping two-year-old is sleeping through the night and sleeping a massive chunk of time right through till 6:00 in the morning. So, um, yeah, we obviously meet two-year-olds that are still waking every three hours through the night or maybe getting a block of four hours and then waking every two hours. That can sometimes still happen. Um, but it's actually really great to hear that you are getting that big block of sleep and, and she is able to do that while still co-sleeping. So headline, you don't have to end co-sleeping- ... for your child to be able to sleep through. Those things are not connected. [00:56:03] Jo: Yeah. Same with breastfeeding as well. It's like, you know, and I know sometimes it can, but sometimes it can't. Like I've heard of people who've stopped, who've like maybe night weaned and it's, it hasn't changed the fact that the child's gonna be awake. Like, and the child still wakes up, but you know, there's just no milk. [00:56:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, we're happy for you, Jo. We're not resentful at all. We're, we're happy for you. Um, and you, as you said, you don't have any particular goals about your end, ending. You're just gonna s- wait to see what works for her. You're leaving it open at the moment. And do you mind me asking, have you got family who are supportive of that? Have you got anybody who's giving you a bit of a poke? [00:56:38] Jo: Thankfully that like, you know, the, the family that ... So me and my partner both have like very small families, but thank- thankfully like most people have been very supportive Um, maybe one family member that is a little bit weird about it. Um, but you know, they're, they're entitled to their opinion, but that's not gonna make a difference on me and my daughter's feeding journey and what we do. [00:57:02] Emma Pickett: Good. Well done for staying strong. Yeah. Yeah. The weird, weird people who've got their own issues are not what was gonna make s- like, you know, you're not gonna make a life-changing decision based on a weird person. [00:57:11] Jo: It's like, that's your issue, not mine. [00:57:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jo, for sharing your time with us today. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you think we should have covered? I [00:57:21] Jo: think, um, you know, obviously, ner- neurodivergence has been, like, a big, big topic. Obviously, it's something we've, we've talked about quite a bit, but I remember thinking about this yesterday. Like, sometimes I feel like the reason why breastfeeding works so much is, like, you know, I feel like I'm quite, like, sensory sensitive to, like, sound and, like, without sounding awful, like, when my boob is in my child's mouth, it removes that sound element. [00:57:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah. She's q- She's happy ... she's quiet. [00:57:49] Jo: I'm happy. [00:57:50] Emma Pickett: She's not yelling and screeching and running around, and it's peaceful. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. [00:57:57] Jo: I totally [00:57:59] Emma Pickett: understand that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Obviously, s- people have different things that kind of press their buttons when it comes to sensory stuff, and, and if sound is your thing, it's the best way to keep a little person quiet. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. Have you got any favorite resources that you found on your journey? Any... I don't know if there's any particular resources around autism and parenting that you found helpful, or any other resources you'd recommend. [00:58:18] Jo: You know, I really wish I did have a really long list, but, um, honestly, just the, like, the internet and, like, I mean, I'll see if I can find anything. Um, I haven't really found anything specific, [00:58:30] Emma Pickett: um, now, but- Yeah. Well, if any- if, if you haven't found it up till now, it's not connected with you yet. It sounds like you're somebody who's been very instinctive, and you found the answers a lot within your own thinking and your own reflecting, which I respect. Not everyone has to find a website or an, or an article or a book. Um, and it's really clear, Jo, what an instinctive mum you've been and, and, and are being, and, uh, that Ceci's very lucky to have you. So well done for getting- Okay. Thank you ... getting to the place where you are. [00:58:56] Jo: I've learnt a lot, um, you know, like, from your podcast as well. Like, especially, like, I think when I found it about a year ago, it, it really helped me with those, like, boundaries as well, and just hearing about other mums who are breastfeeding toddlers and, like, you know, I kind of had all those, like, base beliefs about boundaries and stuff anyway. But I think it's kind of realizing, like, you know, it, it, it is actually okay. It's giving yourself that permission slip and, like- [00:59:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... [00:59:25] Jo: you know. [00:59:26] Emma Pickett: It is okay. Even in the face of your child being cross about it, it is still okay to make changes and, and look after yourself and the relationship 100%. Thank you very much for, uh, for ending there. I really appreciate your time today. [00:59:38] Jo: Thank you so much. It's been lovely chatting. [00:59:45] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.