The Exact Moment You Realise You're An Adult

0:08 You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.

0:14 Hello, Outlouders. Holly Wainwright here.

0:16 Now, depending on where you are in the country, it's either Labor Day, the King's birthday, or just a regular old Monday. And if you're in regular old Monday land, I'm sorry, because I will be maybe at the beach if it's sunny, maybe just eating more food than usual, hanging out with my family. Anyway, we are having a little day off.

0:34 Because where we are, it is a public holiday.

0:37 So instead of your regular show, we are giving you a peek behind the paywall at one of our subscriber episodes. Now, this one is Mia, Em and myself. And it's all about an essay that we read and that really made us all think called Adults Don't Exist. The idea is that we all spend large parts of our life waiting for someone to tap us on the shoulder and tell us that we're officially grown up. Or we expect the adults to arrive and solve our problems. And then suddenly we realize, oh, no, I am the adult here. I've got an example that I still squirm about now, about the moment I realized.

1:10 I had to grow up. Anyway, please enjoy this.

1:14 And if you want more episodes like this that get a little bit personal, a little bit behind the scenes, subscribe to Mamma Mia and you'll never miss an episode of Out Loud.

1:22 See you soon.

1:23 There was an essay that I wanted to discuss with you both that has been doing the rounds. It's by a guy named called something something george mack is his name and it's called adults don't exist and this really appealed to me because i'm at the age you know 50 how old are we hold 54 54 where you would really think that we would be adults by now but the premise of this essay i certainly wouldn't think of you as an adult name really oh she's 30.

1:56 I'm like yeah am i like forever 21 in your eyes yeah yeah.

2:01 You just don't give off big adult energy. But then I don't think I do either. Holly does.

2:07 Do I?

2:07 Yeah, I think she does. But basically the premise of this is that adulting was something that people used to talk about for a while. They're millennials. Oh, I'm adulting. I'm doing a grown up thing.

2:20 I'm a 28 year old toddler.

2:22 Yeah, exactly. But, you know, the premise of this is that somewhere in your 20s, you assume that there's going to be some kind of ceremony, right? Like there's like, You know, someone's going to tap you on the shoulder and go, hey, here's the key. You are now an adult. You have crossed over the Rubicon.

2:37 Come into the room.

2:38 We'll tell you all the things about how the world works. You can get off the kids' table. Come and sit at the big kids' table, the adults' table. And then that doesn't happen. And then you turn 30 and 40 and 50 and you might have a family. You might have, well, undoubtedly, you could not possibly get to any of those ages, even yours, Em. Mm-hmm. And not have had to deal with some really adult shit, you know, heartbreak, grief, mental health issues, physical health issues.

3:07 Money problems.

3:08 Money problems, all the things. And does it ever come, that moment? We think of adults as something that someone else is. Like, Hol, if you had to think of an adult, who would it be? Not you. Not you. Not me.

3:21 Who's the most adult person?

3:23 Well.

3:24 I like Barack Obama. Yeah.

3:25 Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think Oprah's an adult.

3:27 Oprah's definitely an adult.

3:29 And I'm kind of stopping there.

3:31 It's kind of interesting, isn't it?

3:32 Because leaders, political leaders, you want to think they are, but then Trump's got big toddler energy.

3:37 Good heavens above.

3:39 Maybe he's brought back the adult toddler.

3:41 Yeah. George Mack says that we're all suffering from something that he calls adult syndrome, which is the shock of working out that the grownups that you are measuring yourself against are are just flawed former children who are winging it and they're a bit taller. And the twist is that you would think that's depressing. It's like no one's coming to save you. But he says it's actually the most freeing thing that you can discover. So before we unpack that, I just want to go through, I've listed some of the iconic people, most of the men, funnily enough, who you would think of as being adults.

4:14 Very serious, big brains.

4:15 Serious, big brains. And he talks about what the actuality of their life was. Throw me a couple of your favourites.

4:21 So on this list there is Mozart, very famous and widely held to be a genius, lived beyond his means, buried in debt, wrote begging letters to friends, died at 35 with no money and no headstone.

4:34 Doesn't sound very adult, does it?

4:36 Nikola Tesla fell in love with a white pigeon and said so out loud in those words, died alone in a hotel room living on milk and crackers.

4:44 I thought that was maybe the person who invented the Tesla. It's inspired by him. Thank you. It was inspired by him, but he invented something like the current of something electricity. Something that basically the whole world runs on now. So, like, pretty smart guy.

5:01 The point of these is that these people... had a childlike yeah disorganization this one's.

5:08 Really sad they didn't have their shit together they didn't have their shit together Napoleon crippling hemorrhoids known to three people 20 leeches applied to his backside before battle like that's just mean well I thought.

5:20 That was interesting because like Napoleon is I don't know a lot about history but Napoleon I think is like quite a.

5:25 Yeah, he's a general. He's a ship.

5:27 He was considered to have your shit together, right?

5:29 And be like a war genius.

5:31 But you can have your shit together and have hemorrhoids.

5:33 Well, quite literally.

5:35 Because the crux of all this is what we think an adult is, right?

5:40 Yeah.

5:41 And when we say things like, oh, thank God there's an adult in the room.

5:44 Yes.

5:45 Or we say.

5:45 When are the adults coming? Yes.

5:47 Or you say, well, you're the adult, so like what do we mean? And I think that's our definition is, to your point, That someone who has their shit together, right?

5:56 Yeah.

5:56 Or someone who just, for me, I think it's someone who knows a lot. Like, because I always put old and wise together. So the person and all of these people are just geniuses who just knew everything.

6:06 I just want to come back to Napoleon for just a second. Because when they say he had 20 leeches applied to his backside before battle, that's kind of a euphemism. It would have been his anus area.

6:16 It would have.

6:17 And I guess that's a beautiful mental picture in that you would think of someone about to go into battle, like he was quite short, Napoleon, I believe, but very famous and as a warrior and plays out loud.

6:30 And a lover.

6:31 Oh. All right. Josephine.

6:33 Anyway, that's another story.

6:34 But he really had some issues.

6:36 Maybe that had something to do with his anus. I don't know.

6:40 Some of the others I liked as well, like Steve Jobs, someone a little more contemporary who is one of the co-founders of Apple. He got a pancreatic cancer diagnosis and for nine months he just tried carrot juice and acupuncture and he said at the end of his life that he really, really regretted that. He should have gone with medical treatment. This is someone who's like an IT technological genius, suddenly doubted the power of medicine and went alternative and it basically speaks to people being fallible, I guess. So adults we think are, what I think is... Self-sacrificing to a point, right? So the adult is the person who will do the thing that has to be done, right?

7:19 That's what I think of when I'm thinking about who's the adult in the room. So we'll do the thing that has to be done even if it's unpopular. We'll do the thing that has to be done even if they don't want to do it. So you know how like being a parent is a lot of things of going against what you want to do. Like you have to put your needs on the side because you've got to look after this person. That is.

7:40 adult behavior.

7:41 I think that's so interesting. My definition of adult is more the person who always knows the right thing to do.

7:47 But that's always subjective.

7:48 You've just got to do something, right? The adult knows you've got to do something.

7:52 Well, this is why I always like doctors and hospitals and people in white coats, because I'm always like, you've got this. And it can be really confronting to learn that maybe they actually don't have this. So I had a relative who had a sudden onset of a paralysis and we went into emergency and I hadn't been exposed to neurologists before, you know, brain doctors. And they came and they would be like, hmm. And then they would be like, we're just going to go away and have a bit of a think. And I'm like, that seems a little unconcrete. And I learned through a friend whose father was a neurologist that that's a lot of what neurology is. It's kind of about ruling things out and thinking about things and I always assume that the adults,

8:37 it's quite a childlike assumption really. I like to believe that like they're all a bit magic and they all know shit that I don't, which obviously is true. They do, but then they're also not always right.

8:49 But they're also, to the point of this essay, just kids fumbling around really. They've just done a lot of study and the stakes are just very high on their decisions. But also I think of adults also as being in control of their emotions.

9:02 But when you say stumbling around, he actually says the downside of this, the danger in this, is that everyone goes, oh, well, no one's an adult because you want some people to be adults. You want doctors and police and judges and... Leaders. Politicians, leaders, Napoleon, to be adults. And the risk is if we go there are no adults, then everyone goes, well, there's no experts.

9:22 I know as well as the neurologist. I know as well as the lawyer or the police, you know, officer. Yeah.

9:28 So is it like we assume adults are not just experts in like their field but for everything and that's what we assume they are?

9:37 Look, I suppose this is why people say I'm just going to do my research.

9:39 Yeah, it's funny because I guess my thought about adults is like, you know when someone says you've got to be an adult about it, to me what that always says is your emotions are telling you you want to go to that person and say you're an arsehole and da-da-da-da-da-da, like act on your emotions. But the adult in you goes...

9:57 That's not the right thing to do. That's going to cause more trouble. Like it's being an adult is about, in my mind, is about being able to see a bigger picture.

10:05 Put your big girl pants on.

10:07 Doing something you don't really want to do, but you know it's right. So following up with your pancreatic cancer tests, whatever. like breaking up an argument that would be very enticing to jump into and start swinging chairs, but going, you know what? I know this isn't going to be good for the friend group, the family, the kids, whatever.

10:23 That's why I'm not good at it.

10:24 Not being, not talking shit about your ex.

10:27 Like that's, it's adult behavior is a lot about impulse control because one thing that children cannot do, particularly little children, is control their impulses.

10:36 And American presidents.

10:37 And exactly.

10:39 So I think toddler energy, like the, acting on your impulses is kind of more exciting. It's more colour and movement. And it's like, I'm going to get you because you got me and.

10:49 Da, da, da, da, da. That's like childlike behaviour.

10:52 And for a long time, I think leadership was modelled and this was a very masculine vibe, I guess, by people who knew not to do that and to remain calm and listen to all sides and then somebody has to make the decision. But it feels like it's out of fashion. It feels like it's more in fashion for us all to be doing our own research and just like.

11:13 Well, my vibes say this, so whatever.

11:15 But that feels like childlike energy feels it's more exciting.

11:20 I want to ask you both and for the out louders to think, when have been some times in your life that you've gone, oh, shit, I'm the adult in this situation?

11:30 For me, there have been two distinct times. One of them was when I was 20. And so my whole life, I've always had my grandfather, my papa drive me to and from school. Like he was like my driver where he would like take me to sport, take me there, take me there. And then when he got around 85, he couldn't drive anymore and he didn't have his license.

11:53 And then I was at home one day and he had a doctor's appointment, which I didn't know about. And he called me and he was just like, Emily, I need you. I need to go to the doctor. And that was immediately when I was like, oh, my God, like our roles have switched. Like he actually needs me for the first time to drive him to the doctor.

12:10 And that was it just made me go a bit like, oh, like this feels different.

12:14 I'm stepping up.

12:15 Yeah, I'm stepping up. The second time was when I started living alone. And I remember driving home one day and I was like, oh, I really want to pull into a Maccas drive-thru and get some Maccas. And then I was like, but I have food at home.

12:31 Oh, that's a very adult thing to do.

12:34 I thought you were going to say, and then I did. And I was like, I get to choose. I didn't.

12:39 And then I was like, oh, my God, my mum would be so proud.

12:41 You know when you're little and you think, I remember going shopping with my dad, grocery shopping. He and I would do it every Saturday. And I would always be like, I can't wait till I'm an adult.

12:49 I will just buy Cocoa Puffs.

12:50 And white bread and all the things I can't have. And then I'll go to the toy shop and I'll just buy so many toys. And then, of course, buying the wholemeal bread, buying the Sultana brand.

12:59 Well, that's what Napoleon did, which is why he got hemorrhoids.

13:02 So true.

13:03 Full circle moment.

13:04 Oh, what about you?

13:06 I think there's no doubt that having kids is one of the quickest ways to make you feel like an adult. And that's one of the reasons why, and that didn't happen to me till really late, whereas it happened to you when you were young. But like there is suddenly a moment that every mother in particular, but fathers too, will tell you about when you have a baby and they give it to you and then they leave the room and you're.

13:25 Just like, What?

13:27 Yeah, driving home from the hospital.

13:28 I have to look after this. Like nobody's supervising me.

13:32 I didn't even think about that.

13:33 That happened to me too. So I had that written down as one of my milestone moments when I had my first child and he was born at like, I don't know, 7.30 or whatever at night. No, 9.30 at night. And then the midwife came in and Jace went home and the midwife came in and said, so he'll need to feed at 2.30 a.m. And I remember thinking, Oh, no, but I'll be asleep then. Oh, so sweet. Who will feed him? And then I just went, oh, shit. Oh, wow.

14:04 It's on you. That was a lightning bolt.

14:08 And then another one, which was before that, was this is why I think I think that adulting, as much as I hate that word, is about taking responsibility for your shit, right, isn't it? Is that when Brent and I had been together for a while and we were going to get a mortgage. And I had all this messy financial shit.

14:26 I had debts. I had secret debts.

14:29 I had, like, because I've always not been very good with money, but I was acting like a kid, like the kid who goes to Macca's instead of knowing they have food at home. And I had to come clean and, like, tell this lovely man that I was dating and we were going to get married together that actually I had all this, all these secrets, all this mess. And the thing that was revelatory about that for me was that Obviously, like any secret, like any shame, you think the world is going to fall apart, right? But Brent, who isn't that adult really, but in this regard is much more adult, was like, well, we can deal with that. Like you can call the people and they can get a payment.

15:08 And I was like, you can call the people?

15:11 People?

15:12 I can admit to it and sort it out. And slowly we did, right? And I did.

15:17 And I think that hiding from problems, which is definitely one of my fatal flaws, is is a very childlike thing to do too. I'll pull the blanket over my head and no one can see me. It's like a version of that but to do with whatever, some behaviour of yours that you know is self-harming or destructive or whatever.

15:36 And then realising that when the blanket can come off, things can happen to solve it.

15:41 Yep.

15:41 It's very adult.

15:42 And that's why he said it's actually, this author said it's actually very freeing. He said it's knowing everyone's winging it's only comforting until you're the one that's sort of holding something heavy. But it's that idea that you don't have to wait. Like when you realise that no one's coming to save you and that you have to save yourself, that can be scary but also empowering. I remember another child-related time is when your kids start school and you can't quite believe that, like, the principal, you know, or teachers that you're a peer of them, you still feel like, oh, I've got to go and see the principal and like, oh, I'm going to get in trouble. And you just can't believe that you can like call them by their first

16:30 names or that you can hold them to account for something or that you can be critical of them. I find that I go very, I don't know what the word is, but like submissive in those situations. I do that with medical professionals. Do you think that's a female thing? I do that.

16:43 To your point before about how doctors fill out the ultimate adults to you. I am very, like, when I'm in the doctor's surgery, I'm like, oh, they're very much the boss. Like, I can't say, oh, no, I've heard that before or the internet says something else or whatever.

16:56 Feeling like you're going to.

16:57 Get into trouble is a very, do you think the proper adults ever worry about.

17:01 Getting in trouble? Listen to us, proper adults. I think Obama's worried about that.

17:06 No, I don't think so. I think that they're just.

17:08 Well, I know like.

17:09 Maybe for Michelle, he's probably worried about that.

17:11 When my dad ate my chocolates, he was very worried.

17:14 So I think it goes like.

17:15 So you are an adult.

17:16 Yeah, I think that like proved that I was an adult because he was genuinely scared. But I always saw adulting to me in relation to like my parents' life stage because... I remember I think I had like a full crisis when I turned 28 because I knew that was the age that my mom had me.

17:33 Very common.

17:33 And I was very much like, oh my God, like I feel like a child bride. There's no way I could have a kid at this age. I don't know how she did it. Same when my dad migrated to Australia, he was 23. And then when I turned 23, I was like, there's no way I could move to a totally different country and not know a single person. And it's just like these little things, even like if something happens to my parents, like I remember one time my mum, a few years ago, slipped, slipped over, and my dad described it to me as she had a fall.

18:03 Instead of she fell down.

18:04 Oh, a fall, that's a big thing.

18:05 And that, like, I felt something in my chest. I just went, oh, no. I'm not ready for that.

18:10 Yeah, when I see my parents ageing and knowing that I'm also ageing, that's when I really feel it.

18:16 But did that feeling in your chest, did that make you think, oh, shit, I'm at the precipice of... it flipping from them always being the ones to take care of me.

18:27 To the other way around.

18:28 Because that's the phase that Hol and I are in a bit more. I mean, for some people it happens suddenly and some people tragically lose their parents at all different ages, which is when they speak about often you feel like you're an adult when you lose either one or both of your parents. But the other aspect to it is when your parents are still alive, but they are starting to decline either physically or mentally. And one of the things that I know a lot of my friends talk about whose parents are still alive, that it's quite an instinctive thing. I just want to ring and tell my mum. Like I know that my mum, like for some people, my mum will be the one. And then you go, oh, my dad, whatever. But then you go, well, actually,

19:08 they won't be able to comfort me. I'll have to comfort them with what's happened to me.

19:14 It's so true because I think that for a lot of people, if you're lucky enough that your family is a safe space, a lot of people– as adults, when they return to the family home, regress.

19:26 To being a kid, don't you?

19:27 Oh, yes.

19:28 I would go.

19:28 So for years and years and years, and obviously I live far from my parents, but when I go home to visit, I walk into my mum and dad's house and I would, like, drop my bags and be like, feed me, look after me, make.

19:39 A fuss of me. Like, you know what I mean?

19:41 Interesting.

19:42 You sort of go back to being a kid.

19:44 Like, mum would make my favourite dinner. And you find yourself slipping into those roles with your siblings and all those things.

19:51 And then.

19:51 to exactly what you're saying Mia slowly over time that's not how it is anymore and when you go back into your parents home or into your childhood home you're not the child anymore it's like you you have to be this bigger more mature you have to do the caring and it's such a different energy And I don't know that anyone feels ready for it. You know, we often people who had really difficult childhoods will say the hard things is that they always felt they had to be the adult because their parents were too chaotic in whatever case or too unwell or too distracted or whatever it might be.

20:27 And that having adulthood.

20:29 Thrust upon them early was a real burden. And so I think that probably your attitude to when, because I remember really clearly the first time I realized that not all adults had things sorted out is my mom and dad had a really good friend who used to come around a lot and she was really chaotic and lovely and entertaining, but kind of erratic and a bit, and she always had some big drama going on in her personal life that she'd tell us all about really loudly and all those things. And I thought she was really interesting, but I also remember having this very clear thought of, oh, Why is she doing that? Even I could see, why is she making that stupid decision?

21:03 Because she's a grown-up. But, like, everyone can see that that man's married or whatever.

21:08 That's an objectively bad thing to do, Sid. Eight-year-old Holly.

21:16 I just remember having a very clear like, oh, adults are messy as well.

21:21 Yeah.

21:22 And of course we are. I'm plenty messy myself.

21:24 Yeah. And a lot of people say it's if their parents got a divorce or if they lost a parent or a parent who had chronic illness. And there are a lot of young people who have to become carers for their parents, like really young sometimes. Yeah. So, yeah, they're all really interesting ideas. But I guess the takeaway really of this essay was that you don't just become your older, wiser self. You sort of build her. Nobody hands her to you. No one taps you on the shoulder and go, okay, this is the thing. It's like you do it slowly over time.

21:57 It's like we need these little realisations throughout.

21:59 I like that. Outlouders, tell us about the moment that you realised that you were actually the designated driver of your life It can happen more than once. It's still happening to me. I'm a grandmother and it's still happening to me. I also, another one of those just before we go was a bit like when I'd tell my kids to do something and then they'd do it. That always surprised me. Why are they doing what I tell them to do? That's how it works. I can just tell them to do a thing and then they'll actually do it.

22:30 There's something amazing about my teenager when she says, you're going to kill me, aren't you?

22:34 And I'm like, apparently I have power around you.

22:38 Exactly.

22:41 So Outlouders, if you like that, there's plenty more where it came from. We make bonus episodes of Outloud just for subscribers every Tuesday and every Thursday.

22:49 And if you want in, the link's in the show notes.

22:52 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.