Everything We Know About Sam Wood

0:03 Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the 7th of October. I'm Holly Wainwright.

0:10 I'm Maeve Friedman.

0:11 I'm Jessie Stephens. I need to talk about the moths.

0:14 Oh, yes.

0:14 I know that this is not... directly relevant to 99% of our listeners.

0:18 It wasn't a national emergency.

0:20 It wasn't, but it was in the New York Times and therefore it is on the international agenda.

0:24 That's the only reason we know about it because it was in the New York Times.

0:26 It was a local emergency.

0:27 It was a local emergency. I've lost my voice because that's my only strategy of getting rid of them is to yell.

0:32 I don't even think they've got ears.

0:34 Yeah, I don't think so.

0:35 I don't think they've got ears either, but they are massive. They're so big. I had showers with them this morning. I got out my hairdryer. Boom, moth came out.

0:42 Explain to people what's happened because there are a lot of people in other parts of the country who are going, what is she talking about? And then there are people who live New South Wales coastally who are going, I know exactly what she's talking about.

0:53 Key words. Something about a spring migration.

0:55 Yeah.

0:56 Something about Augusta Wind.

0:57 Bogong.

0:58 Bogong. They're off track.

1:00 They're off track and my mum's calling them the dugongs.

1:02 They are the size of dugongs. Do you know what? These little moths, they're breeding grounds.

1:08 I've done some moth research and they've done, their breeding grounds are in Queensland and New South Wales and this is usually the time that they do a thousand kilometre migration, some of them, to the snowy Alps.

1:20 To escape the hot weather.

1:21 And this is why we're not allowed to hurt them and I would never advocate for hurting them. It's because they're endangered. And apparently this was a thing during the 2000 Olympics.

1:28 I remember it well. In fact, when I saw the Bogong invasion happening because it was happening down my way last weekend, I thought this is nostalgic for me. I remember the TV shows and the Olympics and the moths would land on everything and then they've been gone for like 25 years.

1:43 And then they're back.

1:44 No, the hard times for the moths. Between 2017 and 2019, their population collapsed by 99.5%.

1:50 Well, they are back with Avengers.

1:52 Do you know why it's not just about the moths? I know, because they don't feel very endangered at this time.

1:56 No, they don't, and they don't have any survival instincts. All they do is flap in my face, and I'm like, okay, I'm happy for you to go where you're going, but get out of my house, because you're just running into a wall.

2:05 They got lost.

2:06 They've gotten lost.

2:06 Because there was a gust of wind.

2:07 They've been blown off course, and now they're in Sydney and particularly the South Coast and the Illawarra.

2:14 And particularly my home.

2:15 We were camping at the weekend, October long weekend, and we were in a campground and the toilets, let's just say, you'd go into the massive communal toilet block and you'd look up and the whole ceiling was brown. And the amount of trying to convince the children to go in there was, they were just like.

2:34 So I posted about it because they are everywhere and everyone's like, just turn a light on. And I'm like, no, no, no, they're not evolved enough to know that they go towards the light. And I had Outlouders send me messages. One woman said moth between her eye and the glasses she was wearing. Flapping, flapping away, trying to get out. Bang, against the glass.

2:53 Bang.

2:53 Another woman was saying like, I'm on my phone in bed. moths swarming the phone because of the lie. Because of the lie.

3:00 Like I'm just trying to have my little doom scroll bugger off.

3:03 Leave me be and the plague is on my phone.

3:05 I'm trying to read about the moths. Get off my phone.

3:07 And you're in the way. Another one went to the loo. Moth in underpants.

3:11 How'd you get there?

3:12 How'd you get there?

3:14 And of course. Moth up the badge.

3:15 Oh, it says a lot of things.

3:16 Moth in ear canal.

3:17 You do not want moths in your flats.

3:18 Lots of moths in ear canal. And I'm going to sleep with nightmares going, don't you come near me. I don't like them.

3:24 I'm sorry.

3:24 I got an emergency call Saturday night.

3:27 Moth in Luna's room. Many, many moths actually. What were you supposed to do?

3:30 Take her.

3:31 I had to come and retrieve her.

3:33 That's hilarious. And she was.

3:34 Panicking over the moths.

3:35 I got a FaceTime call from your cot.

3:37 Yeah, and I walked in and went, ah! And then that was our next option.

3:40 All right, they appear to be moving on.

3:44 Not in my home. No, because they're quite dumb and they can't find the exits. That's the problem.

3:49 And they also don't respond well because I've been catching them in my hands and releasing them because what you should do is, gently sweep them or gently vacuum them.

3:56 You're Jane Goodall.

3:57 Even if you don't care about the moths, do you know why you shouldn't kill them? Because they are the main food source for the critically endangered pygmy possums in the snowy Alps.

4:06 Which is where they're trying to get to.

4:08 I'll be nice to them, but just get out of my cupboard.

4:09 They've got to fly a thousand kilometres and then get killed.

4:12 They did make my creative son make up a whole story about a supervillain called Mothra. Anyway, here's what's made our agenda for today. A very famous Australian man has been arrested and charged with domestic violence offences and we're going to tell you everything we know.

4:32 Plus, would a food divorce make your life better?

4:35 I got one, guys, and I have some things to tell you.

4:38 And Pete Davidson has had it with influencers. My question is, does he kind of have a point?

4:44 On Sunday evening, just as much of Australia was doing long weekend things and a major football match was about to start, news broke that a very famous Australian man had been arrested. Sam Wood was arrested and held and charged with the domestic violence offence of assault, occasioning bodily harm and strangulation in a domestic setting. The alleged victim cannot be identified under Queensland law. In fact, while we're talking about this today, you might listen and wonder why we, unlike lots of people on the feed on your phones, appear to be cautious with some of the details here.

5:19 It's because with a case like this before the courts, any sort of wrong words or overreaching in terms of reporting the details on a platform like Outloud can jeopardise a trial. It can, in particular situations, mean that justice might not be served, and obviously that is the last thing anyone would want. So we are sticking to the facts on the public record. What we know is it happened in Noosa, in Queensland's Sunshine Coast, where Wood and his family, that's his wife, Shnezana, her 21-year-old daughter, and the three little girls that they share were on holidays.

5:53 As we're recording this, Wood remains in custody, and he's due to appear at Maroochydore Magistrate's Court tomorrow. His lawyer says that he intends to defend the domestic violence charges against him and the only statement from Wood or his family is a joint one that reads, this is a difficult time for all of us. We're working through this as a family and are thoroughly cooperating with the authorities.

6:14 So that was posted on Sam and Shnazana's Instagram.

6:19 On Monday morning.

6:20 And all of the comments are off.

6:21 The incident is meant to have happened on Saturday night about nine o'clock. Jessie, can you paint us a picture of who Sam Wood is?

6:28 Yes, so Sam Wood was on the 2015 season of The Bachelor. That's where he met and we knew her as Schnetz. She was on the show and she was actually the first person he met on that show. She was a single mother, which at the time was really rare for The Bachelor.

6:46 I think this was the last season of The Bachelor that I watched. Jessie, I know that you and Claire recapped it.

6:52 Yeah.

6:53 But I remember that the narrative around this, because as you said, she was the first one he met and he chose her at the end. It was down to her and one other person. And the narrative was what an amazing guy. He chose a single mother.

7:05 Like that is the ultimate. good thing to do and not, you know, because it's difficult.

7:10 It was very rare at the time to have a single mother on a dating show.

7:13 It was.

7:13 And she, he said later on that, you know, the minute he saw her, he knew she was the one. So they've been together since. As you say, Holly, they have three daughters together and Sinez's oldest daughter from a previous marriage. She's 21. And when he appeared on The Bachelor, Sam Wood was a personal trainer working at the local gym, right?

7:37 Yeah.

7:38 But since he has turned that into a really exceptionally lucrative fitness empire... In 2022, you may have seen headlines that a brand called 28 by Sam Wood sold for $ 71 million and he retained a minority stake and he stayed on as face of the company.

7:59 So was it sold to like a bigger fitness company?

8:01 Yes, yes.

8:01 The buyer was a genomics company called MyDNA, which you may have heard of, and you said it was sold for $ 71 million or $ 50 million U.S., It was actually something that's called a cash and script transaction, which means the sale price was for the business and it wasn't necessarily Sam Wood's personal payday. So he had a business partner and I believe still does. And what a cash and script means is that there was some amount of cash that was paid out to the company that was 28 by Sam Wood, which was Sam and his partner.

8:39 And he got a 5% stake in MyDNA, in the overall company.

8:43 That bought his company, if.

8:45 That makes sense. And he's remained involved ever since as the brand's founder and public face. A lot of people wouldn't even know that he sold the company because.

8:54 He's still the face of it.

8:55 And it has attracted more than 400,000 paying members since launching in 2016.

9:01 And that's the thing.

9:02 It can feel like, you know, he's not the first ex-reality TV contestant to have a fitness brand. This is not like those fitness brands.

9:10 No, I had no idea how huge it was.

9:13 And the reason that it was so attractive to my DNA is that they wanted to combine the sort of wellness platform because it's his workouts and it's meal plans with the sort of personalized genomic health services that they offer.

9:27 Right, because after he sold that company, Schnez co-founded and launched 28Go, which is a health food product line, you know, similar name, and that's got healthy snacks and protein bars and all of that. She's also written a book called Untold, which is a memoir. The other time you might have seen him popping up in the news was when just last year he was being chased for more than $ 7 million in unpaid taxes by the ATO, an agreement was reached, all moved on. The reason I think these allegations have come out and been particularly shocking are because... of the nature of the allegations. And that's one thing. The second is that Wood's business is marketed towards women. So when you say 400,000, I would say almost all of those

10:11 are women.

10:11 And Shnez is often a part of that. She's often the face of his... workouts and diets and she's sort of.

10:19 Part of the business.

10:19 Because particularly postpartum women, and obviously she's been postpartum three times in the last eight years.

10:24 And now menopausal women as well.

10:26 So he's recently launched, just a few months ago, launched a business within this umbrella company called Ollo for Women, which is about weight loss. And since the charges have been laid and he's been arrested, the overall company, which is called DBG Health, I have placed him on indefinite leave from 28 and all over women. And then the next day they terminated all commercial arrangements with him effective immediately.

10:57 So that means that.

11:00 All the salary that he received for being the face and the founder and everything that he did, in most of these kind of contracts there will be clauses about reputation and if you bring the business into disrepute.

11:15 And obviously the follower count for a lot of these accounts has, you know, decreased significantly because of the allegations. And on that, the other thing you might have seen in the aftermath is a video circulating of Sam Wood. This video is said to have been posted on Friday night, so about 24 hours before.

11:37 The allegations took place. And here's a snippet. It was posted on TikTok. It's since been removed, but here's a snippet of the video that is being circulated. He's talking just for context about dieting and self-control and having his wife hide particular snacks for him.

11:53 Come and have a chocolate biscuit.

11:56 How about a little Kit Kat? Because this is the time of night.

12:00 The fridge.

12:06 Starts calling to me. Close for business. This is the time the pantry starts whispering in sweet nothings to me. Come and have a chocolate biscuit.

12:19 How about a little Kit Kat?

12:21 In that 30 to 60 or 90 seconds, however long it is, there's a couple of things I like to do. I like to clean my teeth because that signifies to myself it's night over. I talk to Snez and we support each other. I get her to hide all the stuff that I like from me. And then even if I'm strangling her to death, she will not give it up.

12:43 Obviously, we cannot speculate about the significance of that video. But if you're wondering where it's come from and the context, then that's why you're seeing it everywhere.

12:54 So that was presumably around, I mean, I haven't been on 28. what's it called, 28 by Sam Wood, but it's about diets and motivation.

13:04 It's like workouts and diet plans and, yeah, it was 28 in the first place because it was 28 days.

13:11 So where to from here? We know that Sam Wood is going to contest those charges. That's what his lawyer has said.

13:17 He'll appear in court in Maroochydore tomorrow. The fact he's not been released on bail and has stayed in Queensland while his family have returned to Victoria is significant. But he is going to be appearing in court tomorrow where, as his lawyer says, he intends to defend the charges.

13:35 And we don't know because of the law who the victim is, just that the victim is a female.

13:39 And that is a Queensland-specific law too. I mean, different states have different laws about this, but they cannot be named.

13:46 We don't know who called police.

13:48 It's been reported that someone, because they were in a hotel complex on a very busy main street in Noosa. Okay. And it's been reported that, yeah, because anyone can call the police. If you think that there's a domestic violence situation or something that you're concerned about, then anybody can call the police.

14:06 And neighbours have spoken to reporters. Mia, we've sort of touched on this, but what? else has happened since these reports surfaced over the weekend? What have we seen happen to?

14:18 Well, obviously it's been a huge shock and had great impact on the people who are members of 28 by Sam Wood. We've heard about, as you said, a lot of follower counts down. A lot of people, because this is a subscriber business, it's a paid subscription business, so people cancelling their memberships. And even though the company said that the 28 businesses, Ollo and 28 by Sam Wood, will continue under new leadership, I mean, the court process is going to take some time.

14:48 Mm-hmm.

14:49 It's certainly hard to.

14:50 Imagine people going, because it's still all over the website, it's called 28 by Sam Wood. I mean, when you think about all that branding, every video that's been made. And then, of course, they work with a lot of trainers and celebrity partners and brands who have all understandably immediately come out to distance themselves, including Tiffany Hall, Jules Robinson, Tanya Monk, Tam and Sir Socks. Fox's Den, they've all either ended, paused or distanced themselves from their partnerships. Some people like Tiffany Hall, yeah, she said, I don't even work with them anymore, but presumably.

15:25 you.

15:25 Know, in the minds of people, you can often see content on social and think that it still exists. Presumably we'll find out more tomorrow when he appears in court.

15:35 The other question that was circulating over the weekend was the definition of domestic violence. Because the person cannot be named and it's important, we don't know who it is yet. But I think it's an important moment to kind of like remind ourselves of what domestic violence constitutes. Because obviously there's things like common assault, which might happen with someone outside the family are outside the home.

15:58 Was it someone in the room next door?

16:00 Was it a bystander? Yeah.

16:02 So relationship context is critical when it comes to the definition of domestic violence. So it applies to people in a specific type of relationship, which typically includes current or former spouses and domestic partners, people who are dating or have dated, people who share a child in common, blood relatives, family members, or people residing in the same household. So that's what the definition of domestic violence is.

16:26 And I know that there will be people listening to this saying, why are you talking about the business implications when this is such a serious charge?

16:34 Yeah, the business isn't the alleged victim, but we are all reading a lot about the business right now.

16:39 The point is that there is a wide area of impact and also we cannot talk about what allegedly went on in.

16:47 The hotel room.

16:48 So we do have to sort of paint a picture of what has happened since.

16:54 I think for a lot of Australian women news of the charges which haven't been proved and might not be proved but it feels like the latest wave of a lot of news about violence against women that is overwhelming and for many people who are listening to this and reading these headlines domestic violence isn't something that's far away.

17:15 It's something that was in their family of origin or in the one they're in now, or is something that's happening to them or their friends or family. And we obviously just want to say that you're not alone. If you are feeling frightened, if you're feeling overwhelmed, distressed by this news, we are going to put.

17:32 And the details, I think specifically, details of the allegations are... for some women incredibly close to home.

17:39 Yes, and so we're going to put resources in the show notes if you are struggling with this news and 1-800-RESPECT is always there. I have a question for the group. Do you know this song?

17:54 It doesn't take a crystal ball to see A cowboy always finds a way to leave Drinking jackals He's choosing Texas, I can tell. Okay, I've heard it a few times.

18:11 I've never heard it.

18:11 But weirdly, I was trying to find something for work the other day.

18:14 I like that.

18:14 And I was like, what's a vibey song? And I was asking Google and Google could only give me, it was like, choosing Texas. And I was like, what's another vibey song? And it was like, have you thought about choosing Texas? And I was like, why are you so obsessed with choosing Texas?

18:24 Choose Texas, Jessie.

18:26 So, bingo, it is called Choose in Texas. It's by a 27-year-old country singer from America, from Alabama, called Ella Langley. And why am I asking you? Well, because the fragmented nature of everything in the minute means that either You are sick to fucking death of that song. You can't get enough of that song or you have never heard that song. But that song is so enormous, it has just knocked Mariah Carey off the record books, the leaderboard mirror, if you will, for the most weeks at number one.

18:57 So it's like one of the most successful songs ever written.

19:00 Ever written. It was only just knocked off the US number one by Taylor Swift, who we discussed yesterday. After 24 weeks there, it has been number one In the UK, it's been number one. In Canada, it's been number one. And here in Australia, number one for 12 weeks. In Australia? In Australia number one for 12 weeks. And, in fact, the Spotify data shows that Sydney is the city in the world streaming it the most.

19:25 To maybe scare the moths away.

19:27 And Brisbane is second. So Australia loves that song so much and I want to know why. Like why does a song catch fire like that? All right.

19:38 Clearly, I mean, there's something about country. It's like you think you're not into country music and then you listen to the chicks and you're like, yeah.

19:44 We're all obsessed with Nashville.

19:46 Yeah. Yes.

19:47 A cowboy always finds a way, as Ella someone says.

19:50 To live. Yeah.

19:51 But the other reason is that apparently this has broken all the records because of two factors out of her control. The first. Taylor didn't release a new song for those 24 weeks when she was.

20:00 At the top. No, that's not doing Ella right. That's not doing Ella right. That's just saying she's Bradbury-ing it.

20:05 Well, that was one thing and neither did Bad Bunny. And so in terms of the data, there were two things out of her control that like the world conspired to make her number one. I, it's funny because I hadn't actually heard the song, but I heard about the song because I was like, what is this song that's, what's the catnip in this song that makes it so viral?

20:27 And so I went looking for it, found the clip on YouTube, press play, and it was a whole movie.

20:32 And I watched the story song.

20:34 And I'm like, no, but there was no singing. And then I just got bored and I left.

20:38 Well, do you like the song?

20:40 Having listened to it just now?

20:41 Yeah.

20:41 It's about a young woman. Who's dating a guy.

20:44 A cowboy.

20:46 And he starts... She's from Tennessee and he's from Texas. Relatable. Like, maybe you're from Sydney, you're from Brisbane.

20:52 Like Romeo and Juliet.

20:54 And they go to a bar and he starts two-stepping around the room with a girl from Texas. Not the two-step.

20:59 Not the girl from Texas.

21:00 And Ella, who's singing the song, can tell.

21:02 Wait.

21:02 That's it. It's over.

21:03 The girl from Texas.

21:06 So it's like Jolene. We love a song about cheating men, broken hearts, blah, blah, blah. And I think the second thing is a story. I always say to my kids there are two reasons why I love a song. It'll either be just the way it sounds and makes me feel and the other will be the story.

21:19 Like Lily Allen's album.

21:20 Country music songs are always story songs. And I don't really know anything about this, but I saw that video somewhere ages ago and it made me stop. So why did it make me stop? I guess it's because it is a really clear story. Here you go.

21:33 Well, I like that, that from the novelist. I think that's a really good interpretation. I think it's also about the algorithm. And now because we're all on, you know, Spotify or Apple or listening to streaming music, you'll find that you'll often be served the same song again and again and again. So even though like there was a time where it was Sabrina Carpenter and, you know, certain songs.

21:57 Hot Potato is big for me.

21:58 And that is where the algorithm but also the music companies have deals where they can insert. And then the more you hear something, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, the more you want to hear something.

22:09 It's been a slow burn, by the way. It's been out for a year, that song. but it's only just now been number one in all those countries for the past few months.

22:16 Do you know I still.

22:17 Can't listen to the songs that were TikTok famous during COVID?

22:21 That makes me feel sick.

22:22 It makes me feel actually sick.

22:24 Like very triggered. Blinding lights. You've got to do the dance.

22:31 That was a good three days that we spent trying.

22:33 To do that dance.

22:33 Do, do, do, do, do, do.

22:38 Have you ever experienced a food divorce? Luca and I are teetering and apparently it's more common than you'd think. A food divorce is when you and your partner stop eating together. Maybe you eat different cuisines or you prepare separately or you order two separate delivery foods to your house. I have friends who do this.

22:56 Wow.

22:57 It's more common than ever because of conflicting work schedules, dietary preferences or allergies and delivery being so widely used. We have more options in this moment of what to eat than ever before in human history. But the psychologists are worried because apparently preparing food for each other is central to a loving relationship. It shows care. It shows appreciation.

23:18 And eating together facilitates key conversations and bonding. Mia, is this phenomenon kind of sad or is it?

23:25 Just practical. Some personal news. I've got a food divorce. I've had a food divorce.

23:30 I've been food divorced for quite some time. Okay.

23:33 And also, unrelated, I started to teach myself how to cook.

23:37 Wow.

23:38 I reckon they are related.

23:39 I'm going to park that for one second and talk about food divorces because what was interesting in, you know, this story in psychology today that talked about the reasons for it, it said it was, as you say, allergies. Yeah. delivery being widely used and also personality types, which I thought was funny. I also think that in a lot of households, one person or in some, one person might be on weight loss drugs and that impacts appetite too.

24:10 But I think everything in.

24:12 Our lives now are more individualistic. We've become an incredibly individualistic society. So the idea about just eating what you're given. Everything is on demand. You know, it's very unusual that you just go, I'm going to sit in front of the TV and accept what is fed to me, right? So people want customization. They want everything to be bespoke.

24:33 They don't want, they want to have a choice.

24:35 In everything.

24:36 Why do you think we don't answer our phones? Because like, oh, I don't know who's going to be on the other end. I don't know what's going to be put on the table.

24:41 I think in most households it's still somebody, and let's be honest, it's usually the mum. If you've got kids, is making dinner every night.

24:48 Someone's got to make the dinner.

24:50 And they're giving it to the children and they have to eat it.

24:52 Do you have children?

24:53 Yeah, I do. Do they eat what you cook?

24:55 They have to. I think that's why I stopped cooking.

24:58 It is.

24:58 I have a theory.

24:59 I know we're going to get to your cooking renaissance.

25:01 Yeah.

25:01 But I think that the thing about food divorce is that who you eat with in your house can be very political. Like when you've got little kids... Parents put themselves under an enormous amount of pressure about do we eat with the children at five? Do we eat after they've gone to bed at seven? Is it wrong if we never eat together? Should I be doing family dinner? Oh, no, I can't do family dinner.

25:21 We should.

25:21 Like it becomes a really big thing because we've all internalized the information that like sitting down together is great. but very unrealistic for the reasons that we've said. I'm food divorced from my son, no question, because he doesn't eat anything I like.

25:35 He's gone no contact.

25:36 No food contact with the family. My children and I have a food love affair. We like all the same things, so we get a lot of pleasure out of that. But I think it's really interesting that most people who have to cook for a family have They hate doing it, right? Yes. Even if you love cooking, even if you actually love cooking, having to do it every day, oh, my God, how many times have we all seen that meme of, like, how does dinner time come around every single day?

26:01 There's nothing creative or stimulating.

26:04 It's like sex. It's like an assembly line. Sex is great, but if you have to do it all the same way every single night forever, the familiarity will breed contempt.

26:12 Well, that's not the case for me because I don't like cooking for other people, but I– like to also eat the same thing every night. You know, my peanut butter toast for lunch situation, that has been, my lunches are kind of all over the place, but my dinners have become, there are basically two things essentially that I eat for dinner most nights. And I always find that the more out of control my life feels or the more overwhelmed my life feels, the more restrictive I get with what I eat. And I don't mean restrictive in terms of restricting my calories because I know that's another thing that can happen. And it is a symptom of an eating disorder. But for me, it's I get overwhelmed with decisions.

26:55 Yeah.

26:55 And there are two things that I know how to do. I know I can do them quickly and I know I'll enjoy them. And so I need to take out any variables. And funnily enough, the people in my house don't all like eating the same thing that I do. But also because I've got older kids, they like to eat when they like to eat.

27:15 And they like to eat what they like to eat.

27:17 So everyone, it's quite wonderful. We used to call it survivor, which is just like, you know, sort yourself out. And that's sort of turned into some of them have learned to cook. Others of them have learned to eat sort of dry wheat bix and some weird things in a bowl.

27:32 I remember we talked about this on Parenting Out Loud. I talked with Amelia about it and there were two things. The first was that– This is almost partly a real estate story because of how many houses don't have dining tables anymore and how we've lost the art.

27:46 Of the family.

27:48 I want to get rid of my dining table.

27:50 Yeah, so because of apartment living and stuff. And that means that we're not sitting across from each other. We're probably sitting next to each other, in which case, well, it doesn't matter if I have dinner at 6 and you have dinner at 7.30, right? So that's the first thing. But the second thing is that Eating the same thing at the same time as someone else makes them seem more trustworthy. That's like a psychological truism, right? It's like a real bonding moment. That's what, you know, we've been doing for hundreds and hundreds of years. So there is this kind of gap that starts to emerge between you and the people in your house that don't sit down and they say that eating as a family dinner table

28:28 is like one of the best, the outcomes for mental health for eating, for education, for all of the things. They're like, that's the one thing, which is impossible.

28:37 I'm very sad about it.

28:38 And I have a lot of shame about it too, because particularly my son's about to do his final exams. And there's something that I feel that I've internalized that being a good wife, mother, woman, human is to be able to cook. I'm the worst Jewish mother in the world, is to be able to cook and provide. And because I don't do that, And I should be honest, I choose not to do that because people who go, I can't cook, Anyone can follow a recipe and I'm.

29:05 Proof of that.

29:06 And also men can cook. Like someone else in your house could have stepped into that role. Brent cooks dinner four nights a week in my house. But the thing that I find interesting about it, which is obviously cultural because it's obviously deep inside me, is the idea of there not being a dinner time every night is really weird to me. Like, you know, we all have our punctuations to our days and dinner time might be at six on one day and eight on another day or whatever in my house depending on what's happening, but there is a dinner time. And I wonder what happens to me.

29:33 I'm like, what happens in the evening if there isn't dinner time?

29:35 We're like nomads.

29:37 Yeah, so dinner time has all these reports about, like between Gen X, Millennials and Gen Z.

29:42 Dinner time's gone away.

29:44 Dinner time and also the rise in eating alone. And they say, I was reading this thing from the World Happiness Report from last year and it said that one of the like strongest indicators of subjective well-being is if you eat with other people. So eating alone makes you unhappy.

29:58 I'd be very sad if I was home and it was dinner time and Brent didn't want to eat with me. I'd be really sad.

30:05 Yeah. I think you should bring it back.

30:07 That's so tragic. I'd be like, what do you mean? Anyway, I want to know. Because I think.

30:11 I think that's another reason I stopped, to be honest, is because when you work. With your partner and your family.

30:17 Oh, yeah, true. And you go home at the end of the day and it's like very different. I think we've spoken enough.

30:22 Yeah.

30:22 See, very different. Whereas in my family, like dinner time, and I'm not there every night, so I'm not pretending we're all sitting down every night holding hands.

30:28 Like Little House on the Prairie.

30:30 It's not very often in front of the telly or whatever, but we do generally eat together if we are all there. But I think that you're discovering the pleasure of cooking probably because that expectation and that shame and all those complicated feelings maybe have gone. All I want to know now is what you're cooking.

30:46 Well, a funny thing happened. Yeah, I cook a lot of peas.

30:49 A funny thing happened over the last couple of months is that there were three people in my life, different parts of my life, who mentioned cooking something and I thought that sounded tasty and I said, oh, how do you know how to cook that? And they all said nagi. Of course.

31:05 And you were one of them, huh? She's just discovered nagi.

31:08 Guys, I've got a recommendation. There's this new book out. And I think it's a website and it's called Recipe Tinnits.

31:14 Are you reading tonight or are you reading dinner?

31:16 Recipe Tinnits.

31:16 Naturally, I bought them both, of course. And you're a veggo.

31:19 I bought them both and I'm a pescatarian. But weirdly, I've cooked, and I'm going to share these photos, I've cooked four or five things. I'm now just going in order because what I get overwhelmed by is I can't choose. And so I've said to my family, go and post it, note it.

31:37 So they have. So I'm working my way through it.

31:39 And- Gosh, it's quite lovely.

31:42 I actually think you're right, Hol. But there's a second part of it. I think it's ironic that my daughter's just moved out of home again. My son's going to be moving out in the next, my young son's going to be moving out in the next few months. I'm going to be free birding, empty nesting, whatever you call it.

31:56 Free birding.

31:56 So in some aspects, there's no more expectations on me. But also, I think subconsciously I'm panicking that if I don't, because I've seen that with my mother-in-law, who's an amazing cook, That held the family together.

32:09 Coming around for dinner.

32:10 Her adult children.

32:11 Went around for dinner because she had food to offer. And that's the love language, particularly of Jewish mothers, right? And because I haven't had that before, I'm like, what's the use of me to them? What can I do and how can I show my adult children that I love them?

32:28 And I'm doing it with food.

32:30 Who knew, guys, that this was a thing?

32:32 This is what my mum discovered this when we all moved out. She's never cooked so much.

32:35 Really?

32:35 She can't stop cooking. She's tempting you back.

32:38 And I'm cooking things.

32:39 That I can't even eat except for this incredible chocolate cake. But I'm cooking things with meat and chicken in them and, like, I'm fine with that. I just want to nurture my people.

32:46 Well, I reckon in the newsletter this week, let's put in Mia's favourite recipes.

32:50 Let's put the recipes in.

32:51 Yeah, that Mia can't stop making.

32:52 And out loud as if you've got some no-fail things. I need to just to be naggy at the moment because I need to just.

32:58 Don't start throwing odd-a-ling-gy.

32:59 Please don't.

33:00 I need odd-a-ling-gy. Then you're going to make me have the little, what are those things? Pomegranate. I can't. And pulses. So if you've got any good Nagi recipes that you swear by.

33:12 Oh, so many.

33:13 Hit me up. And I've also learned about her dog, her lovely dog, Doza.

33:17 Late RIP Doza.

33:18 Well, spoiler.

33:20 Sorry.

33:22 Don't worry, she's got a new dog now, Mia.

33:23 It's okay. It's not okay, but you know.

33:25 She's getting very attached to Doza. Doza's on every page of the recipe book.

33:29 Crikey.

33:31 When I say the name Pete Davidson, what's the first thing that you think of?

33:35 BDE.

33:36 BDE.

33:36 I was going to say the same.

33:37 Ariana Grande.

33:37 Big Dick Energy.

33:38 I know that's Okay.

33:39 Dating a lot of very famous women.

33:41 Kim Kardashian.

33:42 So you're not, well, you got there in the end. So Pete Davidson is an actor, a comedian. He is also the ex-fiancé of Ariana Grande and the ex-boyfriend of Kai Gerber and most famously Kim Kardashian.

33:54 And his father died in September 11.

33:55 Yeah. His backstory is very interesting. He was a firefighter who died in September 11.

34:00 So it's very interesting, all the things we've just said.

34:02 And BDE was about when there was an opinion piece written about Ariana Grande and Kim Pete Davidson and how Pete Davidson kind of doesn't look like the kind of guy that Ariana Grande, who's like little and perfect and so feminine, would date. But there's something about him. He might not be conventionally attractive, but he's got BDE, which is big dick energy.

34:24 I use that all the time, that phrase.

34:27 It does.

34:27 And women can have BDE as well.

34:30 Anyway, what's interesting about all the things that you just mentioned about him is is SNL, which is what he's most famous for. He's been on many seasons of SNL and now he does movies. That was kind of buried in among there. The other things that you knew about his father died in 9-11 and that we all knew about who he dated exemplifies, well, he exemplifies the two types of fame. And the first is skill-based fame about what you do, what you say, your acting, writing, competing, whatever it is. And the second is personal life fame.

35:03 which is about your lifestyle and your dating history, your mental health, your family, the tabloid narrative about you. And the reason that this is interesting, and again, it's not new.

35:13 Remember the. Phrase famous for being famous.

35:17 I think it all started with the Paris Hilton moment.

35:19 Exactly when it started.

35:21 Yeah.

35:22 And Kim Kardashian, which is where worlds collide, right? So the reason we're talking about Pete Davidson is that he's given an interview this week with Variety magazine.

35:30 Well, he's talked about two different things.

35:31 He's talked about these two types of fame, which is basically influence of fame is, you know, typical of the personal life fame and then skill-based fame.

35:42 Here's what he said.

35:43 It's bad and it makes me sad, you know, and girls are just talking to themselves on there and they're like, okay, come get ready with me.

35:53 And I'm like, who the fuck are you?

35:55 What do you do?

35:56 Nothing. What the fuck is this? They make 40 million a year?

36:02 What?

36:02 And then I'm like, the world's broken.

36:04 This is insane.

36:05 Does no one else see how fucking insane and lame this is?

36:09 I agree with him.

36:10 Yeah, well.

36:13 I don't know.

36:14 I don't know because then he talks about in another part of the interview that was more endearing. He comes across a bit of a dick in that. But he talks about Kim Kardashian and he said that he is part of the survivors, men who have dated into that family.

36:30 Yeah.

36:31 And made it out alive. He said, we're like the Marines.

36:33 That's so funny.

36:34 And he said that it's, he explained that it was really, really challenging and that you get followed around all the time. And he said the Kardashians are so good at that. But for someone who was famous for what he did, moving into that type of fame, it was a real clash. And I wanted to ask you both, do you think that anyone gets to just be that first type of famous anymore? Like a famous actor, a famous musician, a famous politician, or do we, even a famous businessman, do we insist on knowing who they are?

37:04 No, I think it's a choice. Leonardo DiCaprio is a famous actor. And yeah, he's done a little bit of activism and stuff. But as far as I can tell, he doesn't have a skincare line yet.

37:13 No, but how famous is he for dating women under 25?

37:16 Yeah, but that's not him. I'm saying that he doesn't feel the need to get up on Instagram and say, here's a day in my life.

37:21 Or show you his girlfriend.

37:23 Yes, like he'll be papped. But I think that there are people who have been very, very intentional about what they mean to do. And I agree with Pete Davidson that we still get to ask the question about like, what does what you create mean? mean? Is it something worthwhile? What's it giving the world?

37:41 It's interesting because... Oh, but that's so pious, Jessie. Like, what is.

37:43 I don't think it's pious, it's just ethics.

37:44 He sounded very judgy when he said that, right? To me, he sounded very judgy and dismissive of females in particular, where he was like going, this girl putting on her makeup, like.

37:53 People say.

37:53 That about us.

37:54 A hundred percent.

37:55 Oh, those women gasbagging, wasting their time.

37:58 But this is sitting down and making... a podcast is like whether or not you think it's a good podcast, it's a creative endeavour. It's something that you sit down.

38:04 We're making something.

38:05 You're making something.

38:06 You've made a Get Ready With Me video before, I think, and it's hard and can be quite creative.

38:11 I do not put... a Get Ready With Me video in the same ballpark as being a comedian on Saturday Night Live. I think that it is much harder to be a comedian on Saturday Night Live. And I think that you get to say.

38:22 That's quite hard to use.

38:26 I think you can say one requires a level of expertise. But I think this thing we do now is like, if you have lots of followers and if you make money, then we all have to applaud you.

38:34 And it's like, I don't care. think what you're doing is that I agree with you but what I liked about what Pete Davidson was saying there really really is he's like and they make 40 million a year well like some people do but most don't let's be honest everyone you see putting their makeup on on the internet is not making that kind of money but he goes on to say so sometimes I wonder why I bother like because he's He is a creative soul. He does his acting and his comedian ginging, as you say. And it's like, he's like, why do I bother when maybe I could just go on OnlyFans and talk about my BD, which everybody wants to talk about, and I could make as much money as I do from acting. And I think that that is an interesting clash that creatives have

39:11 now that they didn't used to have. So it's always been hard to make a living out of being a creative. Everybody knows that You know, 99.9% of actors or comedians or whatever make no money and they'll never work in it and they're working in a cafe and whatever. But now you can go, oh, well, I can do some creative work myself, build a brand. That could be my income.

39:29 maybe blah, blah. So in many ways, it's a really good opportunity. You can get your work out there. You can show it to everybody. And in others, it's a really tempting opportunity. But in terms of credibility, the thing about Pete Davidson is he is an artist and an interesting guy and an interesting backstory. But most people in the world know him for that period between 2018 and 2022 where he went on this crazy– It's not his fault, though. Well, Ariana Grande, Kate Beckinsale, Margaret Qualley, Kaya Gerber, Phoebe from Bridgerton, Kim Kardashian, Emily Ratatowski. He dated all those women in a four-year period. And then you can't complain that everybody wants to talk about your personal life.

40:09 Excuse me? Taylor Swift, we could say almost exactly the same thing.

40:13 Oh, but she writes great songs about it.

40:14 But it's also true.

40:15 But this is the thing. I think for a woman we would go, oh, it's sexist to define her by who she's dated and that's like, and it is, and we do that with women far more than we do with men. But I kind of get what he's saying. Where I do think that there's a hint of hypocrisy here is that the way that those influencers are making their 40 mil is ads, right? The way that Pete Davidson is making his money is ads. He just does the ads on television. Like he's been the face of, Amazon, he's been the face of smart water. He's been the face of a million different things. So it's like, mate, we've all got to hold hands and go, we're all selling out to different degrees. Like everyone has to make a buck. And like I can understand why that felt

40:52 a bit pointed. But I do also think, I think a lot of people think that behind closed doors, which is like, who the hell are you?

40:58 It just says there was such misogyny.

41:01 Seeped into what he was saying and it's like I tried to make a get ready video with me on the weekend do you know how long I spent trying to work out the angles and apparently you've got to put the camera so far down like much further down I had to look up AI I had to get a diagram I had to get a spirit level I had to balance a tripod there was like engineering involved And I don't know, I just don't believe in ranking ways of making money and ranking the effort of what one person calls creative and what someone else calls creative.

41:36 We used to live in a world, though, where no creative people did ads. That world is long gone, right? So it used to be that if Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt, he famously did, or George Clooney made a coffee ad or a car ad, it was only shown in another territory so that it would never taint their reputation because, oh, a whiskey ad in Japan, you know what I mean? Those days are long gone and now it doesn't really dent any creative's credibility to do ads.

42:01 In fact, most of them are now encouraged to be business people on the side, buy a brand, make a brand, be a business owner as well as an actor, which is weird because those two things didn't used to go together. So I think in some ways it's like an old school– it's very Gen X of you actually, Jessie, to be like worried about them selling out because– I think you just heard.

42:19 The phrase selling out for a few minutes. It's gone.

42:22 Like what are you contributing to the world? And I feel like Pete Davidson has an answer about comedy and I think it's a valid answer. I think my mate Leonardo DiCaprio, I think that– You know, there are lots of actors and Taylor Swift has an answer, but I do think it's harder to answer if you're someone.

42:37 Who just makes you feel that way about it.

42:38 I don't because do you.

42:40 Know why during COVID when I was doing stupid, this is what I didn't wear today and dressing up in my dumb clothes or when I put my makeup on, women tell me all the time, Thank you.

42:52 I find it soothing. It's a distraction.

42:55 And that's your answer. I reckon that's a totally valid answer.

42:57 How do you think Kim Kardashian feels about, A, the comments because she is the ultimate influencer and, B, the Marines? I thought that was a very classy way to address it because he must get asked.

43:08 All the time. And Timothee Chalamet must be calling him up and being like, do you have a support group?

43:11 Who is another person who has only dated very famous young women, including Kaya Gerber, I think.

43:16 But I think you're seeing someone like Jacob Elordi struggle with that right now because he's dating Kendall Jenner. He wants to be a capital A actor and yet the dick wants what the dick wants, the.

43:27 Heart wants what the heart wants.

43:28 Sorry for being cynical.

43:30 But, you know, he wants what he wants.

43:33 It's a whole other world.

43:34 I think Pete Davidson as well. And I think that when those two worlds collide of skill fame and, you know, person fame, it can be really, really difficult.

43:45 Flowers for Pete Davidson. Oh, yeah, exactly. Well, set up a GoFundMe.

43:49 Thoughts and press.

43:50 For him and his BDE.

43:51 For him and his enormous.

43:53 Yes.

43:55 Outlouders, just before we go, I should have mentioned at the start of the show that I am actually in the presence of greatness because these two women next to me and also Invernum, who is not here, are Apple Podcasts 2026 hosts. creators we love, and you are among a stellar cast.

44:14 Of other podcasters. I've seen the word trailblazing.

44:15 I have seen it.

44:17 And what they've done is that Apple chooses some incredible Australian podcasters.

44:21 And they nailed it this year, didn't they?

44:23 They really nailed it with us, didn't they?

44:25 And they put the list together and they said that they wanted to recommend key people and recognise key people in the podcasting game and And you had.

44:33 Some lovely photos taken.

44:34 Yes, we did.

44:35 You came back from maternity leave to have them.

44:37 Yeah.

44:38 I thought you looked very lovely.

44:41 Did you know that we got to keep those clothes?

44:44 That is off the hook because nobody ever gets to keep clothes.

44:47 If you want to see them out loud, if you want to know what Mia's talking about out loud as I'm weighing on whether you think, because can you tell from her voice that she doesn't really think that we look that lovely, Jessie?

44:55 Can you tell from her voice? Mia's issue.

44:58 My only note is.

44:59 My only bit of constructive feedback, and remember that feedback's a.

45:02 Gift that should be accepted with curiosity and openness.

45:06 Always, Mia.

45:08 Why are you being so silly? What are your stupid poses?

45:11 Everyone else in the lovely creators that they love look normal, but you guys have flicked the switch to vaudeville.

45:18 This is the issue, okay? It's because she wasn't there.

45:21 You know I'm very strict about posing.

45:23 Laura Henshaw and Steph Clare-Smith know how to pose.

45:25 They do. They look gorgeous.

45:26 They do.

45:26 Even the men know how to pose.

45:28 Yep.

45:29 Holly and I are always in trouble. Everyone looks normal. Because every time we do a photo shoot, she comes, she messes up our hair. She says, not that, and just points to us.

45:36 She says, you look too nice.

45:37 That's what she always says.

45:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:38 Which means you don't look nice enough. And then she's like, do this pose, do that pose. But we don't know how to pose because we wear it. We're podcasters, right?

45:45 Yeah.

45:45 And so they had to do this photo shoot. We knew that Mia would be looking at us having her own feelings. The photographer was incredible. The team were incredible. They dressed us. You got catering.

45:56 I always think.

45:58 Of Mia who always says about you, Jessie, when she tries to dress you that Don't take this the wrong way. This is a mere quote. You look like a dog in clothes. I do look like a dog in clothes.

46:07 She does.

46:07 And you don't look like a dog in clothes. But we all, well, me and you particularly, I can't speak for Em, who loved it.

46:13 Em, why she walked in.

46:14 We're very flattered to be there and everything. And I love getting my hair and makeup done.

46:17 But then I'm like a dog in clothes.

46:20 I'm like, oh, I'm in this nice white suit. What do I do?

46:22 How do I stand?

46:23 Where am I?

46:24 Yeah.

46:24 And that's why when we do it internally, Mia will be there going, stop it, dickhead.

46:28 Yeah.

46:28 Stop it.

46:29 Stop.

46:29 Smile with your eyes.

46:30 So during the shoot, we're all whispering to each other and we're like, do you think Mia will like this?

46:34 I'm wearing so much trouble.

46:35 How we do this.

46:36 She's going to be mad.

46:37 Guys, I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed in you both. Not in Apple. Thanks for choosing us.

46:41 Well, some of us.

46:43 But anyway.

46:44 We were representing all of us. That's all we've got time for. They're on our Mamma Mia Instagram. If you want to go see Mamma Mia Out Loud Instagram, you'll see the pictures. They're on our Instagram too.

46:54 Tell us how good we look.

46:54 Look, I felt very gorgeous. Okay, that is all we have time for today on Mamma Mia Out Loud. We've been to many places as always. We love you coming with us on our journey.

47:08 We do.

47:08 Please go and look at our pictures of me and Jessie going on a photo shoot journey.

47:12 I just got one thing to say and it's, Oh.

47:15 She's so mean.

47:16 She's mocking us.

47:16 She's mocking us.

47:17 I'm not jealous.

47:18 We love you out louders.

47:19 We'll see you.

47:20 We saw the photo and we were like, Mia can't see makeup.

47:22 No, she can't see this. We will see you tomorrow. Love you.

47:25 Bye.

47:26 Bye. Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we've recorded this podcast.