Zoë Foster Blake’s 'FIBI' Rule Will Change Your Friendships & How To Buy Clothes That Fit You

0:03 Hello, hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what we've been actually talking about on Friday the 9th of October. My name is Holly Wainwright.

0:10 I am Jessie Stephens.

0:11 And I am Keisha Pettit.

0:13 Do you know where Am is? Shall I tell you where she is?

0:15 No, I was actually going to ask.

0:16 She's hanging out with my bestie, my bestie Penny. Because Penny, my friend, would just shout out, just like, allow us a sidebar out loud as My great friend Penny.

0:27 Did you know she just followed me back on Instagram?

0:29 Did she?

0:29 Your great friend Penny. Yeah, I've been following her for a while, but yeah.

0:32 She is boss of a charity that builds homes, right? And they do lots of work here in Australia for domestic violence survivors, et cetera. But they're building homes in Cambodia. And Emma's gone.

0:43 Wait a minute.

0:44 Emmy's in Cambodia making the world a better place. With Penny using her annual leave.

0:47 Yeah, she is using her annual leave.

0:49 Why didn't she make a bigger song and dance about that? I would have announced that on the podcast before I left.

0:54 Here I am filling in for her.

0:56 I did not go to Cambodia.

0:59 She and Penny are sending me selfies of their house building for Habitats for Humanity in Cambodia. So that's where our Emmy's. Hi Em, I know you're not listening because why would you be?

1:09 Oh my goodness.

1:09 I'm sure they're having the odd like sneaky cold beverage by a pool.

1:12 She's better than all of us.

1:13 Oh yeah, I know.

1:14 Anyway, that's where our Em is.

1:16 So welcome Keisha. It gives me hope for the young people.

1:18 Doesn't it though? She's hanging out with Penny in Cambodia. Anyway, here's what's made our agenda for today.

1:26 Zoe Foster-Blake has two acronyms that might change your friendships.

1:31 And is there any such thing as privacy anymore? The terrifying experiment that I agreed to for some reason.

1:38 I have so many questions about that. But first, the stylist and wardrobe consultant. I could do with one of those.

1:45 Yeah, me too.

1:47 Alison Bornstein has like a really popular newsletter, right? And I don't know why I looked at it, but sometimes I'm in a bit of a style crisis again. Comes around, doesn't it? And she is telling us all not to worry about the numbers in our clothes. Now, I am in my 50s and I still haven't really led into this lesson that the number in your clothes is not a judgment of you personally. And as she says, if you are too fixated on what size you're wearing, you're probably not dressing as well as you could be.

2:18 The thing with that though, right, is that so much of people shopping is online. So it's like, I do need to know what size I am. These people always assume you're in the shop and.

2:27 That you have all day.

2:29 Because what she says is, let me tell you what her theory is. She says, I've said this once, but I'll say it again. If you strongly identify as a specific size, it's hurting your style. because you actually have the power to control the way things fit if you let go of that number in your head. So if you size up, maybe it's because you want a piece to feel oversized or drape in a certain way. She said, the only thing that means an item technically fits you, and this is the bit that I found quite useful, is does it fit you in the shoulders? Everything else up for grabs.

2:59 I find this a little gaslighting because the sizing is meant to be there so that you know I'm a size this and therefore I ordered this and it should turn up and it should fit me within reason. But it's not our fault that there's no standardisation of clothing sizes.

3:13 No, any size could be anything.

3:14 And that's the thing, is that an 8 here is a 12 there is a 16 is a 14. Like it all has just become meaningless, which means that there's so many returns happening as well. But I have found this with Mia, who is self-proclaimed stylish person.

3:30 She is.

3:30 And I am the, is the word repository for all her clothes that she doesn't wear anymore?

3:35 You are. You are very lucky. You're the beneficiary of the fact that she rotates clothes fast.

3:40 Exactly. And she dumps things at my home. This is Mia.

3:45 And what I have found about her clothing is that, wow, they span sizes. And I don't think that's about her being like does that. It's all about the fit for her. So she loves an over– she'll go a different size in a T-shirt to what she goes in jeans because she likes things to look oversized.

4:02 That's what fashionable people do.

4:04 Interesting to me.

4:04 Whereas me with my all the usual number of midlife women body issues, I'm like I can't buy that size. Or I'm like, oh, I'm depressed because I'm that size, which is me at the moment. But then the shoulder thing is clever because this shirt would probably look a lot better if it fit me on the shirt.

4:20 Yeah.

4:20 See, I think there's some people who can wear oversized and they look really cool and stylish.

4:26 I look like I'm hungover and I shouldn't be in public.

4:29 Yes, I do too.

4:30 Oversize things for me, I don't think it's about height because... No, same rule for tracksuit pants.

4:34 Yes.

4:34 When I wear tracksuit pants, I look like I'm having a mental health crisis.

4:39 People are like, should you be out of the house, Jessie?

4:42 Should you, baby? Is Jessie well? The answer is no.

4:46 The one thing that I have the most issue with sizing of... is actually shoes. Don't get me started on the whole, there's different EU, US, UK. I also found out in doing research for this, that apparently Australian shoe sizes are the same for US sizes if it's a woman's shoe, but not for men's. So when you get to unisex shoes, like it's just, it's all over the place.

5:10 And I'm absolutely convinced that I think shoe sizes have changed in terms of the actual size, the length of the shoe that correlates with a particular size. I feel like it's gotten bigger because when I was a teenager, I was a size seven and I was a size seven.

5:27 Until like, Probably my early 20s.

5:30 And now I'm starting to realize I'm still purchasing size 7s because that's what I've been my whole life.

5:35 And now I think I'm a size 6 or a 6 and a half.

5:37 So you've lost a foot.

5:38 Yeah, but I don't think you can do that. Maybe.

5:41 Oh, you can because as you get older, your feet get bigger because they flatten out.

5:44 But I'm getting older.

5:45 Yeah, I know, but it shows that you're still young and vital because a lot of midlife women go, oh, my God, my shoes don't fit me anymore. What has happened? And it's because they've flattened out.

5:56 I have a fashion question, which is.

5:59 You've come to the right place.

6:00 Actually, Keisha is very stylish. Okay.

6:02 You know how I read this whole article that you put in, Holly, and it's always like, had a chunky necklace.

6:07 Does anyone actually have a chunky necklace?

6:09 No, it reminds me of like that, you know, that phase where I'm 33 and when I started going out clubbing, it was the tight skirt.

6:16 And the belt thing with the chunky necklace.

6:18 And you've had all these different chunky necklaces to choose from, but I haven't seen one for 15 years.

6:22 I think stylish people have accessories because it always says as well, it goes, whenever you leave the house, take off one accessory.

6:29 And I'm like, tricked you.

6:34 I can't do accessories either. I realised the other day that I've been wearing these earrings for I think maybe eight months. I've not taken them out. I've not changed them because I just put them on and I forget.

6:46 Oh, it makes you look very elevated, Holly. This is a problem. At least you've got earrings in.

6:51 Anyway, we hope we've started our Friday in a stylish fashion.

6:57 When was the last time that you sat down with one of your closest friends without a plan and without a designated time period that you had to catch up? Because there are a whole list of things that we could point to as to why we don't just hang out with each other. Things like we don't have enough time anymore, the cost of everything. But I think that it's left us feeling as though our friendships and the maintenance of those friendships now needs to be another thing that we add to our Google calendar with a reminder notification.

7:21 I get this sense all the time. I write it on my list. I'm like, reach out to blah. Like people come into my head and I'm like, oh.

7:27 I need to message this person and check on how they're going. And then it becomes work.

7:30 And then it becomes something you have to add to the calendar.

7:32 This week, author and skincare founder Zoe Foster-Blake, she joined Unleashed, which is the Mamma Mia podcast for Gen X women. And she shared two acronyms that she has brought into her friendships that she says is nourishing her friendships. The first is UTWF. It stands for unstructured time with friends.

7:51 This is what she had to say.

7:52 I like this idea of U-T-W-F, which is Unstructured Time with.

7:58 Friends, which is something you.

8:00 Never, ever get as grown up women. Our time is pulled in so many directions, but I really wanted to galvanize women to pull together and reclaim that time together. You have it a lot in your 20s. The proximity is the friendship. 30s, you pull apart. You've got your kids, your career, and whatever. 40s, you start to get a little bit of time back. Get it out of the chat and get it into.

8:20 I don't care where it is.

8:20 It could be Sydney for the weekend.

8:22 Exactly.

8:22 It could be a hotel.

8:23 It doesn't matter. But you have to be together with no time to do anything. Dress up if you want to dress up. Don't dress up. Just sit, scroll, rot, do whatever you want to do. But that time with women is fucking sacred and we need to do more of it.

8:36 Now, it brings me to the second acronym that she mentioned. It's called PHIBI. Am I allowed to swear?

8:42 Yes.

8:44 I'm not sure if I'm allowed to throw fuck it's around as well, but here we are.

8:49 It's Friday.

8:49 Phoebe stands for fuck it, book it. Her point is simple, that if you don't book the trip, it will never happen. And it turns out that this is actually backed up by a bit of research. So there was a survey done of 2000 women in June this year, and it found that 76% of group trip plans stay stuck in the chat. There's also other data that shows that our average socialising time over the last 20 years has dropped from 45 minutes to 35 minutes per day. So what the heck has happened to our friendship and why is it so surrounded by productivity?

9:23 I have, I've moved into the hanging out phase and it was because I listened to this Ezra Klein episode last year that changed my life. And he interviewed a woman. It was all about, I think it was about having people over to your home. And it was saying our standards, I think we talked about it on the show, our standards for what our home has to look like, our standards for what we have to provide our friends.

9:48 Hosting.

9:49 Hosting have just gone so ridiculous that we think everything needs to be perfect to have anyone over. And so in this period of my life, I think Luca and I looked at each other and went, if we do not have people over to our house, we will never see our friends.

10:02 Because you can't go out. You've got three tiny kids.

10:04 We've got three tiny kids. And guess what?

10:07 At 7.30, they're all down and they're all asleep. So we can have people in our home, but we can't go out. And so we have moved into this phase. We have done more hosting in the last six months than we've done in the six years prior.

10:19 We have people over all the time. We provide nothing.

10:24 We are maybe a glass of water. Sometimes Luca will make people a coffee. The house has toys everywhere. One child will inevitably have an accident. I had friends over on the weekend and she got pooed on by a child and they came over and stayed for.

10:47 Eight hours, I reckon.

10:47 This is why you need, at that phase of your life, you need a home that you can do that. That was the thing.

10:53 We moved house. So in our last house we could not do it.

10:55 Because of space and because we've had to move three kids and we went, you know what, we just need some space for the kids to be, it means now that I went, we have a responsibility now to have people in our house because Claire keeps going. She wants to hang out with a friend and she's like, yeah, yeah, meet you at Jessie's. And so she brings them to our house and they're always just there. And so I've had to just learn to have that door open and there's a stream of people coming in and out and I love it. And your tolerance for, like, mess and just, like, guess what?

11:26 We don't have any food.

11:28 You bring the food or I'll order the food or we've got some toast.

11:30 Like.

11:31 And it means that there is the unstructured because I found that so much of my socialising was I update, Keisha updates, Holly updates.

11:40 Good conversations happen between the updates.

11:42 I know.

11:42 We update via message.

11:44 It gets interesting after three hours when you just get onto something completely random. And it's those meandering weird conversations where I feel like there's some depth.

11:53 It has done such good things.

11:55 To my friendships. I think that's very true. When I was in your stage, we didn't have space in our house, but we used to all, that's why me and my friends from that era are all still really tight because we just used to meet in a park or at the beach for like.

12:08 Half a day.

12:09 Yeah.

12:09 And so it's these long periods of time with lots of things going on and you do, and although you're distracted and busy and you're chasing children or whatever, you do build these relationships that are very different than they are if they're like an hour over dinner I also find you know how we talked last year I think about being octroverts I was saying how I identify as an octrovert now which is not an introvert not an extrovert it's kind of a little bit in between but you're always a bit on the outside octroverts like socializing in little groups they like socializing but they like socializing in little groups so I find that now what's your number a dinner with any more than three people I

12:47 now find really unsatisfying including you I love a three. I love a three for a dinner.

12:52 I know.

12:53 Well, you stretched to a four. My mind went there too. Yeah, four's fine.

12:56 But as soon as you get beyond that at a dinner. I find it very unsatisfying, the conversations. Okay. Because I don't really like just up-daily conversations. I want to talk about stuff. That's why what Zoe Foster-Blake told me, because the reason she's talking about this is she's written a novel, right?

13:14 It's called Group Chat, and it's about a group of friends going off to Greece. And she was saying how that's what her and her girlfriends do. Now, going off to Greece is not something that most people can do, but at the drop of a hat. But I've just come back from my, one of my twice yearly camping weekends with all my friend crew. This isn't just girls.

13:32 This is, this is, you know, families, kids, teenagers. And that's what we do in that time because we were in cabins this time. We weren't actually in tents, but you're on the campground all day. And there's something about being removed from your house where there are always a million jobs to be done or work in my case to be done to this time where you can just hang out together it's the hanging out it's the not having things planned that is the unstructured.

13:58 Joy yeah I find that there's like such intimacy the people I'm closest to I have laid next to somewhere and read a book yes that's my.

14:05 Don't have to talk all the time but you can't do that if you go out for dinner if you go out for dinner and you go I've been dying to read this book and these are the only five minutes I've got that's rude That's rude.

14:14 You know, Tanya Hennessy wrote an article in Body and Soul. I've never forgotten it. It really changed the way I thought about my catch ups with my friends. It was, I think it was last January and it was about the catch up trap. And it was essentially this idea of like, we now no longer create new memories with our friends. We just, we'll book a coffee and, you know, it'll be put into the calendar and we'll turn up and for an hour, we'll play a game of tennis where I ask you what you've been doing you tell me what you like I've been sorry.

14:40 Let's be honest you probably know because it was on social media yeah.

14:43 True and so it just goes back and forth and we weren't creating any new memories but the one thing that I took from that was okay I need to go out and I need to create some new memories with my friends.

14:50 And I made some friends were you at the escape.

14:53 Room yes oh my gosh yes you and I went to.

14:56 An escape room yeah we read that article and then we booked an escape room it.

14:59 Was fun but the one thing that I realized that it requires is is the person to actually book it.

15:05 So it needs the Nicole.

15:07 And I think that the Phoebe still fits on somebody's shoulders. Are you a Nicole?

15:12 No, I'm not a Nicole. I'm not organised enough.

15:14 We were brought together by a Nicole.

15:15 Yeah. And we're very grateful for the Nicole, for the person who booked the escape room.

15:20 Because that's the thing, right, is if we're going to hang out, someone's got to organise the hang. And if you're going to go to someone's house, someone's got to host it. And there was this study done about how hosting has just declined enormously. I was looking at this graph and it was also that it was like we're spending more time.

15:36 Than ever at home and we're not inviting anyone over.

15:39 So ever since COVID, it's like we had this spike and it has just stayed at like astronomical levels of us being at home because home isn't boring anymore. Like there is so much to watch. There's so much entertainment. All our stuff is there. You can sit on the couch and have a... relatively satisfying night. But 50 years ago, you were bored.

16:00 So you got up and did something.

16:01 I also think that, and I know that it often comes back to this, but I do think money is a factor. Like we've had friends over for my partner's birthday a couple months ago and it cost us nearly $ 500 just to have.

16:11 Yeah.

16:13 Do not if we had drinks as well.

16:15 It didn't have to. I'm just going to be that person. I'm going to be that person who said it didn't have to. I mean, I get it because one of my friends is a beautiful host and she makes beautiful lunches for us all and we all appreciate it. It must cost her a fortune. But you can, to Jessie's point, just say, come to my house and we'll order some takeaway and split it.

16:34 And my kid will poo on you.

16:35 Yeah, exactly. But I know what you mean. It is expensive, but it's expensive if you're hosting in the way that we think about hosting. Do you feel confident enough? that you would just have people around without doing anything for them?

16:46 I think that I've got different tiers.

16:48 Yeah.

16:49 So like my absolute closest tier, my favorite thing, she lives in Melbourne, my best friend since high school. And our favorite thing in the world to do is go to each other's couch and have a cup of tea.

17:00 Yeah.

17:00 It is the unstructured or, you know, untimed. And we do just talk about what's been going on. And I feel such nourishment from those conversations. But I think if it's extending out to people that I don't know as well or I don't feel as close to. Yeah.

17:16 That might feel a bit boring.

17:18 You feel a bit, people are a bit judgy. Oh my God, I didn't tell you this. But on Monday, I was at my house and we'd had this weekend away and I was like trying to put myself back together from the campsite, the moth infested campsite. And I had a sheet mask on and one of those hair towels that, you know, you tuck in and Mia's so into and my glasses and I just looked like a completely wild person and somebody dropped in. Like, and somebody I didn't know, right? She's a neighbor. And this is what living where I live is like. There's a neighbor who's been past and said hello to me when I've been in the garden.

17:53 Oh, not the village. This is the village.

17:55 She turned up and I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry. But because Billy was.

17:58 Like, someone's at the door, mom. I don't know who it is.

18:02 And she was coming to give me a curry leaf tree because she'd seen my garden and seen me in there. And she had some and she had a spare one. And I was like, I am so sorry about this. Like, I look like a crazy person. And she didn't care at all. And we stood talking for like 15 minutes. And I thought, well, that's good. I didn't even know you.

18:21 And look at the state of me.

18:22 Did you offer her a sheet mask?

18:24 That's what I should have done.

18:26 I should have said, do you want to come in? Thank you for the tree.

18:29 Can I fit?

18:30 Do you want my bath water?

18:33 When I was a kid, we used to always like, use your sister's bath water.

18:37 I would have been like. The twins have never had a fresh bath, Holly. They have never had a fresh bath.

18:41 I don't do this, but my mates do this. You know how a while ago there was this thing that was like run errands with your friends?

18:47 Yeah.

18:47 Because that kind of catch up is very satisfying. Some of my best friends, they always go shopping together on Saturday mornings. Not like Exide and clothes shopping.

18:55 Like Woolies.

18:56 Just like Woolies shop. They just like bump into each other by mistake every Saturday morning at the shopping center and go and do their supermarket chat. They both love it. It's like, I think that if you get out of the headspace of like a catch up with friends has to be this thing around a table with cocktails. There's nothing wrong with that. I do like that too.

19:17 Well, we need the cocktails too, yes.

19:18 But I think that you can find yourself in all kinds of interesting places.

19:22 Yeah, there's more depth. I agree.

19:25 In a moment, how everything you could possibly know about me was broadcast on national television. All right, I have a story and it, involves four of the cleverest internet people in the country being given a very important job. Maybe a very boring job, but they were given the task of finding out everything they could about Jesse Stevens in a 24-hour period.

19:50 How do we feel about you referring to yourself in the third person?

19:53 That was the information they were given, all right?

19:55 A little creepy.

19:56 Yes.

19:57 So a few months ago I did a show with the ABC called Crime Night. It is hosted by Julia Zemiro. The reason I'm talking about it today is that it just came out in the last week or two, right? This new season is out, season two of the show. And it's a panel show about crimes. No, no, it's obviously- Very much up your alley.

20:14 Very up your alley.

20:14 I was just like, get out of my seat.

20:16 You were like, let me talk to you about every true crime documentary I have ever watched.

20:21 We're on the meeting. And they were like, so we'll be talking about Gabby. And I was like, potato. And then they were like, we're going to be talking about the Idaho Four.

20:27 Yes.

20:27 Okay. Yes.

20:28 I was just across it.

20:29 Oh my gosh.

20:30 A few weeks before I get an email and it asked me if I would let four internet sleuths run an experiment and basically use me as a test dummy. to see what exists about me on the internet.

20:42 And I was like, yeah, absolutely sure. Sounds great.

20:44 Did you worry about that decision? Okay.

20:48 I didn't. And this is my first question.

20:50 Would, because there are clearly two types of people because Dave Thornton, who is the comedian on the other end, I later discovered was asked the same question and had.

20:57 A very different response. Would you say yes or no to that question?

21:02 I would probably say yes because, like you, well, A, I'm a bit of a people pleaser and, B, I wouldn't think about it that hard. And, C, I don't think there's anything too terrible out there.

21:11 That is my response. How about you?

21:13 Well, I think because we all work in public-facing jobs.

21:15 Yeah.

21:16 There comes a part in your career when you work in an area like we do where you kind of have to go, okay, this is the line and this is what is public information and this is what is private. And sometimes we accidentally cross that line a little bit and we share a bit more than what we should.

21:32 And it may or may not impact other people.

21:35 And then you have to live with the regret and you rein it in a little bit and you kind of, I don't know, tighten what you would deem to be public information. So for all of us, I would assume that there is quite a lot of information about us available online because we're podcasters.

21:48 Yes.

21:49 And Dave was basically like, I don't need anyone to know what I did at a music festival in 08.

21:54 And I was like, yeah, no, I get that.

21:57 They then sent me this contract and I wondered, have I committed a crime? Like by accident because I was like, I don't think I've knowingly committed a crime but like it's very possible I've done something.

22:07 It's like when you drive past the police and you're like, when was the last time that I had a weapon on me?

22:12 Exactly, I've got something.

22:14 And I told Luca and I was like, I'm about to sign this thing and he was like, I don't like it.

22:18 And I was like, do you have another family? Sounds very, I have secrets.

22:22 Do you, I assume that there was some responsibility on the behalf of the sleuths that they weren't going to like release all the details of this information.

22:30 That was it.

22:30 So when I got sent the contract and then we had a meeting and they were basically like, you have to sign this document because without signing it, what we are doing to you is a crime.

22:39 Like that's stalking.

22:40 So there were so many rules, like they gave me this document that was like, this is everything that we found and now we are destroying it.

22:48 Because it's so dangerous for that to be.

22:50 The point of this was to kind of show how easy it is to find out a lot of information about people on the internet.

22:55 Exactly.

22:55 So were these people who worked, were they a part of the police? Yes.

22:59 So some worked for police, others worked for like a domestic violence charity. One woman who was so interesting worked in domestic violence and basically what she does is work out the gaps and the loopholes to keep victim survivors safe. and to work out how particular technologies or particular posts you can do can leave you vulnerable. And I thought that was such a good use. The fact that they use They're like superheroes. Like they really use their skills for good. They also have a thing sometimes where the police will put these sleuths who are amazing on the internet on a missing persons case for 24 hours and be like, get everything you can. Because they just navigate the internet in a way that none of us would

23:41 even know where to start.

23:42 Even the best celebrity stalkers amongst us. Exactly.

23:45 So what did they find? Some was broadcast and some could not be because my information.

23:52 Privacy.

23:54 The fact that apparently my car wasn't registered, how many parking fines I get. My phone number, my home address, that I like chocolate in the freezer, where exactly to the centimetre I am in any photo I have ever published, like even if I'm just in a park.

24:06 So just a photo of you and Claire having a coffee or you just out in the world.

24:12 Yeah.

24:12 They can tell exactly where you were.

24:13 They can tell where that is. They had a whole intervention with me about my mother. They were like, your mother. And I was like, please discuss. That wasn't broadcast.

24:21 It was too long.

24:22 It had to be. It's not broadcast.

24:24 Where do we start? Prolific Facebook posting.

24:27 Dan Stephens.

24:28 Anne Stevens has a content series. She has like 200 followers, but she has a content series called View From My Window.

24:32 Oh, she does.

24:33 Where every time she goes on holidays, she's like, look at my window. And they're like, mate, everyone knows where you are all the time. They're like, that is the Blah River and she is at this address at this moment.

24:44 Stop doing that.

24:45 I really like that content series because sometimes it's just like a wall or like, you know, it's not always a beautiful view.

24:53 No, it's never a beautiful view actually. I quite like it.

24:55 So my question to you two is, does any of that surprise you? That if someone, that there are people on the internet, particularly like dark web, blah, blah, blah. Are we just all accepting that all of our data is mineable and that people could find out anything they want about you right now?

25:13 I mean, I'm not surprised by it, but I'm also kind of checking myself because I don't know if I should admit this publicly, but one time I found out that an ex-boyfriend of mine was cheating on me through an Instagram location.

25:27 It was a terrible relationship. Basically, he had shared something the day before.

25:32 You know, in Instagram, if it's a story and you put a location, I don't know if they still do this, but it used to be the case, that you could click on it and anything that had been shared from a public account at that same location, you could click on the Instagram location story and And it would show you.

25:48 All of the people that had posted something.

25:50 Okay, cyber sleuth.

25:51 Yeah, well, anyway, it turns out there was this girl that I was like, I knew it.

25:55 Now I've got the evidence. And they screenshot those things and I presented my case. So maybe I'm actually the problem. Maybe I'm the sleuth that needs to be barriers. Well, sleuthing, does this freak you out?

26:05 Sleuthing on the internet is now a whole industry. And I mean about celebrities and things, right?

26:09 Oh, yeah.

26:10 People are obsessive about that, finding out who follows who and all those things. And so... I feel like all of these people will have many jobs ahead of them in celebrity sleuthing. We could have done with them in the celebrity magazine days.

26:20 Yes.

26:21 Does it freak me out?

26:23 Look, it should freak me out because I should worry. I guess I think there are two types of people. We've talked about this before. I'm sort of you either always click accept cookies or you don't.

26:36 Yes.

26:36 Right?

26:37 I'm accepting cookies all day long because I just want to get to where I get to. I want to buy that thing or I want to read that story and here's my barrier and I don't know what a cookie is exactly. So like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I assume that all my details are out on the internet because I shop on the internet. I do all kinds of things on the internet. And I, as you say, Keisha, I have a public facing job to a point and I post on the internet. So I just assume that it is. Does it worry me that they can find out all those things? It should worry me, but somehow it does not. Why is that?

27:13 I feel as though when we realise that no one has privacy, it's kind of like, well, it's just too much information.

27:19 Why would they target me?

27:20 Right?

27:21 And so I kind of put this to them because I was like, guys, I'm going to be real. Like a lot of, some of this is scaring me and some of it isn't. And they said, I said to them, could you steal my identity right now?

27:34 And they're like, yes. Yes.

27:36 And that's the concern, right?

27:38 And that's the concern because then what becomes really hard as anyone who's ever been scammed knows is proving your you becomes very hard. Yes.

27:45 So, because obviously there are very serious concerns about privacy for anyone who's worried that someone's trying to find them for, you know, sinister reasons and in domestic violence cases and all kinds of things. But It's also a concern that people could quite easily become you. They've got your driver's licence details.

28:01 Also why for like public figures, like why when there's a pile on or why there's any backlash it can feel so scary because it's like there isn't that privacy. But they said to me there are two pieces of information that we're giving away all the time that we shouldn't. The first is you should never give away your birth date.

28:20 Oh, but what happens if you want the voucher?

28:22 Thank you.

28:23 Just what about the wrong year? Okay.

28:25 Yes, put them on here.

28:27 Or just get the voucher on another day, like a surprise day. They don't know.

28:31 And they said that your security is only as tight as your least secure friend because they said the issue now is your Facebook page, is that your auntie Beryl gets on and goes– Happy 30th birthday.

28:41 Keisha, on the blah of March.

28:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:44 And, of course, if you need to hack anyone, like you need birthday and you need email address. And they said the other thing we're giving away is our email address. So make a fake one. They said the restaurant should not have your email address.

28:56 Yes.

28:56 Like the shop shouldn't have your email address.

28:58 Remember when we talked to Amelia and she said she never gives her email at the shops and I was so impressed. It's the coolest thing I ever heard and I was going to immediately go and make an address. And did I do that?

29:07 No.

29:07 No.

29:07 See, they could find out my home address through my email address, which was a way that they did it that I would never have considered.

29:13 But I was like, okay, that's interesting.

29:16 See, I just wonder if this is, I think I'm at the point where I'm like, I could be really worried about this and I could try and remove my digital footprint and not use social media.

29:24 Oh no, the horse is bolting.

29:26 I do feel as though it's kind of the price of admission for a modern society.

29:31 You can't book a restaurant.

29:33 You can't even order off a QR code these days without putting your phone number in.

29:36 Well, this is the thing, right? It's not just that.

29:39 It's Medicare was just hacked. Like your phone, your what? These companies are hacked and it's our details anyway. So I think that a lot of us just feel apathy towards it because we're like, what difference is it really going to make?

29:51 Which I actually kind of understand.

29:53 Have you made any changes since they?

29:55 So obviously we're three people in the public eye, but a lot of what they found out about me wasn't because I'd said it on a podcast.

30:02 It was stuff that would be found out about anyone.

30:04 So they even knew like, I don't know how they knew this, but like what I was ordering on Uber Eats. Like there was random things like that that they were able to find out. So the things that I am totally going to do, even though I recorded this months ago and should have done it already, new email address.

30:21 I'm not sharing my birthday anymore, even though everyone knows it.

30:25 And also being really conscious of every, like, photos I take, if you're conscious of security, like, context clues about where exactly you are.

30:34 And there's ways to do that.

30:34 If you're filming yourself, just film your face a bit more, like, closer so that you can't really see what's in the background. They can tell by what type of tree is in the background, the suburb that you're in in Sydney, for example.

30:45 I remember when Apple, you know, AirTags, when they first came out and there was a report that found that people.

30:51 that were very bad people were using them for the wrong reasons. And that's why Apple brought in the, like, if you're around an air tag that you haven't synced to your account for an extended period of time, it will.

31:02 Alert you that there's an air tag.

31:04 Like if you've ever traveled with someone who will have one in their passport wallet or something like that, your phone will ping.

31:11 Telling you that there is an air tag following you.

31:13 So I love that, you know, I know we can talk about the ways in which these things can be quite scary, but it's quite amazing that there are also people who are figuring out, like you said, where the gaps are so that they can plug them and that companies can respond in ways that actually keep people safer.

31:30 After the break, two TV shows, a lipstick and a man who makes me laugh inappropriately.

31:36 It's Friday.

31:36 As always, we bring our recommendations. Who is going first? Jessie Stephens. I know I concur.

31:42 I'm just going to go quickly because I just recommend the same thing every episode. It's just a new season of The Traders.

31:47 Celebrity Traders UK.

31:48 I thought you were going to say a doco, to be fair. Celebrity Traders UK Season 2 is out. Oh, my gosh, the cast.

31:57 It's got Richard E. Grant.

31:58 It's got Jerry Hall who was married to Rupert Murdoch for five minutes. It's got Joanne McNally, Michael Sheen, James Blunt. I forgot he was in the military and those skills.

32:08 Come in handy.

32:09 James Blunt's Instagram is so funny.

32:11 He is so self-deprecating and he makes these videos all the time about– how this one song is the reason that he has everything that he has in his life.

32:19 He comes across so well. So this season has been so hyped. It is the best cast ever. It is on 10. It's free, 10 play. You need to go and watch it.

32:28 It's brilliant.

32:30 Keisha, mine this week is because everyone, since I've started working here at Mamma Mia, Everyone keeps on commenting on my lipstick.

32:37 And it really gasses me up.

32:38 It's very good lipstick.

32:38 It makes me feel fantastic.

32:40 It doesn't move and it doesn't smudge and doesn't get on your teeth.

32:42 Yes.

32:43 This one is not perfect, but it is one that I keep on coming back to. And now that it's run out, I've bought another, which tells me that it's like a good reco. So it's MAC Locked In Kiss Ink 24-Hour Lip Color.

32:55 It's $ 55. So it's not cheap.

32:56 Is it like a stick or is it like a.

32:59 No, it's a liquid.

33:00 So it looks like a lip gloss. And that is kind of where we fall into the territory where it's not perfect. It goes on and it will stay on. It's really hard to get off, but it can be a little bit drying.

33:11 Okay. But I think it's worth it. You know, for me it's good.

33:14 It doesn't look it.

33:14 Yeah.

33:15 Okay.

33:15 Well, that's good to know.

33:16 I put little dry lips on before I put those things on. I find it helps. Like I do a bit of like a lana lips like to just.

33:23 Does it stop them from sticking in there?

33:24 No.

33:25 No, it still stains, but I just feel like it doesn't dry as much.

33:28 Oh, okay.

33:29 I feel as though I worry too much with normal lipstick that it's going to get all over my chin.

33:33 I get this bit on the chin. I'm like, it's just a mess. So the MAC Locked In Kiss Ink, I brought them in.

33:38 Can you please tell us what shade you're wearing, please?

33:43 Yes.

33:43 So the colour that I have on right now, if you're watching on video, is Brazen. It's kind of like.

33:49 A reddy brown colour.

33:51 Yes, yes.

33:52 And then the other one that I use quite a lot, which is like a lighter, closer to a nude colour, is called Teaser. I have quite a light olive skin, so if you have a similar skin tone, I assume that they will also be good for you. But they have a million shades to pick from. The reason that I'm recommending it is because it actually stays on and it doesn't move.

34:11 So that's why I think it's fantastic.

34:14 I need one. Okay, love it.

34:15 Amazing. I have two very quick ones. One is I said I was watching Youth by Sharon Horgan, which I wasn't going to recommend until I'd watched a few more of it, which is Sharon Horgan is the Irish actress who's amazing. Bad Sisters, Catastrophe. And she this is her show. She she wrote it. She created it. And it's on HBO Max. And it's about a sort of single mom, 50 single mom who's. trying to get her mojo back whatever she works in book publishing it is very funny it's very good i'm into it now i'm up to date and i will but you're on the record confidently recommend it as a very funny show but i also have something you know i was talking to you the other week about um how to be hopeful the book

34:55 by kathleen moran and she's obsessed with fixing her algorithm right like making her algorithm be full of things that make her laugh smile make her day better In the interest of that, I need to share a very quick one with... And the interest of... Also last week, you know I was talking about the little trampoline videos that have infested my feed. The other thing that has infested my feed, and I don't know why, is this guy who narrates runs. Have you ever watched him?

35:19 No.

35:19 So, like, he is.

35:21 I can't vouch for this guy. He could be a terrible person. He is an influencer who lives in Dubai. So let's be honest. He could be all kinds of problematic. Sorry, Jake, hopefully, if you are not. He has a company where basically... It's like he's a DJ and he talks to you and you're supposed to be on the treadmill and it motivates you, right? Now, I know that sounds weird. I am not running on a treadmill.

35:42 No.

35:42 I am not doing that.

35:43 No, you're in your bed on your phone.

35:46 I watch the reels or the TikToks and they make me laugh so hard. that this is my new favorite comfort watch. I'm going to play a tiny bit of him so you can get the vibe.

35:55 When you feel your moment come, you're going to give me that speed that's disgusting, that big speed, that speed that tells the world you are someone who stands up tall. You are someone when the hard moments arrive, you.

36:11 Give it every single thing you've got.

36:14 It's like being in a motivational rave. And he wears these shorts that he tucks in one side, which I don't know what that's about. Is that a fashion thing?

36:22 Your algorithm knows you're a Gen X woman. And it's just like, we've got to, we've got to.

36:26 It's so fun. And then the bead will drop and he gets really into it and he's so earnest. And I'm just like, it just makes me laugh. So I'm going to put a link in the show notes.

36:36 I love it.

36:37 Does it motivate you to run?

36:38 God, no.

36:40 Like maybe in theory.

36:41 Maybe while you're brushing your teeth, you should listen to her just G you after the name.

36:44 Probably not on a treadmill.

36:45 I just have to.

36:46 And he's always like, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, Jay, that song's not big enough. And I'm like, yeah, Jay, that's what I was thinking. It's just, it's just so funny.

36:55 Anyway.

36:56 I love it.

36:56 It's my gift to you.

36:57 I'm going to put the link in the show notes. While we're on that, don't forget to subscribe to the Mamma Mia newsletter. We'll put a link in the show notes for that too. Every Saturday in your inbox, something fun to read. That is all we've got time for this week.

37:11 Bye.

37:12 Bye.

37:12 Bye.

37:14 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.