532 - We’re Being Artists Here

Hello, and welcome my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hart Star.

That's Karen Kilgariff. Happy birthday. Thank you so much.

Oh my god, thank you, and thank you for buying me all of these things.

I did all of this.

It's incredible. Georgia got here at six a m. And she had three rolls of Scotch tape and a dream.

These are from my garden, of course, from my greenhouse.

Incredible.

Yeah.

P and E's are rinuculous p.

And e's and they're Martha Stewart flavor.

Oh best flavor there is. I actually love these flowers so much. Yes, did you guys know that that you brought them?

Craig and I may or may not have discussed p andies. Love it.

Very classy, very classy. Actually we should thank our set decorator. Yeah, Cory Cory Nixon.

He's a PC.

He's not a set decorator, no that he does this, but he's been forced to become one.

Yeah, and he addresses so well. We're like, you look like you know how to put things together. Yeah, it's your birthday. I totally got you a present and it's so cool and you're gonna love it. And it didn't get sent in time.

Yeah, absolutely, can.

I have just shown you a photo. No, I'll give it to you next week.

So listen, I've now done this. It's just cute fifty six times. And I couldn't care if it was a contest and I won money at the end. And I mean, I don't mean that in the like this. When I walked in here, it truly brought me joy. Also, our producer Molly Smith is at the helm of course, knowing how much I care about rose Gold, what it does for me emotionally, but this is as good as it gets for me. Yeah, because I think after a while you're like, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, especially when you could like pass the milestone birthdays and get into the like wow birthdays.

I wonder if it's like not to stolen valor from the kids who had like high school ripped away from them. But having my fiftieth birthday during COVID and you had your fortieth during COVID, Yeah, there was a thing where I was like, well, I either I'm going to be really upset about this or just never care again. And I picked b right, which I recommend in life.

I feel like because I had my fortieth birthday during COVID and cried on the day a lot, did you. Yeah, it was like early in COVID for both of us. Yes, that I am like obligated to celebrate every birthday since that I have in freedom down more than I would, you know what I mean.

That's normally that's a way more positive kind of end results.

Like I didn't get the blowout fortieth that I probably would not have fucking thrown anyways, So.

You can always cry about things you didn't get right, no matters.

So so forty six has to be a big blowout. Yes, fuck in Italy for it?

Hell yes, why not? Also is a different birthday too, because that is a little bit of a turning point and to not get to have anybody like just shower you with love on that day sucks.

It reminds me of all the kids in school who had summer birthdays who just never got the cupcakes or the sevy birthdays or whatever all lumped together, yeah Christmas birthdays, whereas a May birthday everyone stoked the years over. Yeah, everyone's like it's spring. Yeah, it's a new season. It's a big advantage to have a May birthday. Well, happy birthday.

Thank you.

I'll give you a present next week. It's cute though, I want to though, it's just like a cute little thing that I saw it. I was like, that's for Karen. Okay, now, not like what am I going to get her? It was like, that's for Karen.

You sat down with a big pencil.

What am I going to do? This is it?

And then you start crying? That gets your fortieth birthday in COVID.

Right, How am I going to top last year?

Oh?

If I found something social media videos that just showed up in my algorithm that I didn't know existed, But that is going to be my new personality completely.

Sword yoga that is so dangerous.

No it's not. I'll tell you why. Okay. It's this company called Weapon Up. This is not an ad. I just found them and I'm obsessed now. Her name sabb another woman who started it. It's like tai chi meets yo, like vinyasa yoga meets like synchronized fencing. But they have practice swords so like they're not sharp or anything like that.

But oh okay, that's I've been waiting for my next you know, I've done the fucking performer I've done hula hooping.

And now you've been waiting for sword yoga, yoga, sword yoga. Now you pronounced that sword.

I love the I love. I can't help it. It's like a it's a storm, it's a stem.

When do you ever get the opportunity to just where you're like, no, sorry, this is my workout class I have to get. Even if it's a practice sword, sword.

Sword, it's I I'll let you know. I'm going to do a class. I'm going to fucking do it. I'm buying the practice sword. It's like a vegan. It's like all I'm going to talk about. Now.

Do you remember the story I told you where I used to take my old dog George to the dog park at six am?

Yes, and you met someone there.

I didn't meet him. I was on this end of the park. On the other the end of the park, I look down. There's a guy dressed like a ninja with a real sword, and I was like, so, I'm further away from my car in a straight line than he is to me.

How are we going to do this? It's going to run at you.

And then I just slowly walked back to my car and he never stopped sorting sworting. I wonder where he is now that ladies and gentlemen is Tom Cruise? There you go, that's all we needed. Well, I actually had a video for you. I think you're going to like this okay, because I was blown away at the information that I got from good Okay.

Nancy Drew went public domain in January, and nobody is talking about what that actually means. The version of Nancy Drew that most of us grew up with, the nineteen fifty nine version, it's not the original version. The publishers rewrote her, making her more polite, less careful, and less impulsive.

In the nineteen thirties version, she slams doors, talks back, drives into thunderstorms, and climbs into the back of moving vans to steal evidence from criminals. She's sixteen years old, and she's completely unhinged, but in the best way. And as of January twenty twenty six, that original text is freak.

It's public domain, so I annotated it. The link is in my bio past ten dollars and it comes with an evidence lag, a suspect tracker, and a playlist.

Wow, people are so clever.

Here's what I love She's like I need people to know. Like when she that first half of the video had me already where I was like, what I never.

Knew that about Nancy trun now, but now she's.

Making like a book club or for ten bucks, you can join this thing of like original Nancy Drew book club storyline.

I'm like, we're gonna all read it, right.

Yeah, I feel like that's something our listeners would be like.

I would love to do that. O geen Nancy Drew. She wears pants.

Can you believe she's so rude? Is to ask a question?

And she has a sword?

Nancy Drew with the sword. Yeah, I'm totally doing yes for sure. Her handle is the Incurable Nerd Society. Amazing, so perfect. So go on there. That was from TikTok, but it's probably also on Instagram.

Okay, that's her new book club book that we never speak of again.

Yeah, you don't have to get me anything for my birthday, but if you would please join the nineteen thirties badass Nancy Drew book Club.

Oh yeah, that'd be fun. I love it.

Oh. I just wanted to recommend really quick, there's a TV show on Apple Widow's.

Tooth Widows Bag three, Widow's be Widows be. Yeah, I have written down right here.

My brain literally was like, say it past.

It's beautiful, beautiful, Matthew Reese. It's like a Stephen King like haunted comedy Comedy Island that's seen in the first episode in the Historical Society Museum. Fucking brilliant.

Now do you know this is my favorite detail? So the person that created that show is Katie Dippoled, and she's the person that went totally viral and did go viral every year on Halloween because she has that tweet with a picture of herself dressed as the Baba Duke and she was like, when you find out it's more of an adult drinks party than a costume party. And she went to a Halloween party dressed fully like the Baba Duke with like crazy pale white face and a hat. Yeah, and she's just sitting there while all these normally dressed people.

Excuse me, have a party on November one or October thirtieth if you're not wanting people to dress up.

I mean, you know, it's very me where it's like, you know, the holiday, we're going to take it apart and then Katie dippoled. As I was watching that show and literally laughing out loud. I was like, who the fuck made this? And then when I looked it.

Up, it was like, amazing. Yeah, it's so good.

Yeah, watch it.

It's really clever and fun. It's so good. Okay. I love that we've both had that one too. Three. Exactly Right Media is we have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here's some highlights.

So many great podcasts on this network, but Brief Recess one of the greats. And this week, Michael and Melissa are tackling truly cursed legal headlines. They will be discussing the recent huntavirus outbreaks, but also there's a case of a secret service agent who was arrested for fondling himself in a hotel hallway, so they're going to talk about that a little bit. Okay. Also the bizarre twists in the JP Morgan sex hoax lawsuit.

I want to know more. That's really interesting. I mean, what's going on? Everything is it's not the right timeline. Oops, we skip to a different let's bump it back. NaN's fucking timeline. Come on and on. Buried Bones, Paul and Kate Head to Tacoma, Washington. Man that place in nineteen forty seven after the murder of a mother and daughter sparks an investigation to a lesser known serial killer, and that reminds me. I started reading Murderland again. Oh, just because it was so good.

Did I tell you that I had to stop when I was reading it. I was by myself, and I had to stop because it was freaking me out so bad. It was freaking me out.

I never thought of Tacoma as a haunted, scary place until I read Murderland.

Also, Paul Hols and Kate Winkler Dawson were just in these very seats yesterday. I can feel it because they came here to record some shows together and those videos will be up soon on Netflix. So great, Okay. Then over on the runaway hit trust Me, Lolan Megan welcome back from the Netflix doc of the same name, Trust Me.

Their guest nomes Byeline for part two of their conversation about the cult being rated by the FBI, learning Christine was the informant and escaping Samuel Bateman's control. So if you've watched Trust Me the documentary on Netflix, our podcast Trust Me is a cult podcast that happens to have the same name, So just watch that.

Because something's in common. And there's a new MFM animated out now on YouTube. This time Nick Terry animates the busy Body Deer from episode sixty four, where we discover that the eyes watching us in the woods belong not to a predator but to an extremely nosy deer. And you can find every episode of MFM Animated at YouTube dot com slash.

Exactly right media MFM Animated. I highly recommend that TV show. Yeah, just like Widow's Bay totally, it's up there.

Do you need something like lighthearted enjoy us to watch? Get in there, in there, all right, I'm first and I have a really interesting story to tell you.

Hopefully Martinelli's Apple Juice. Everybody.

Yeah, Collen, happy birthday, thank you. So for today's story, we are headed back to a place that we have visited many times in my favorite murder lore, Widow's Bay. Rodmoor Hospital. Oh shoot. It's a sprawling psychiatric hospital about two hours east of London, dating back to the Victorian era. Maney of them were criminal offenders in the UK who have been found to need psychiatric care have been sent there.

We've covered people who were sent here who sit on a spectrum of violence, including the teacup poisoner, Graham Young, organized criminal Ronnie Cray, painter Richard Dodd, William Chester miner who helped compile the Oxford English Dictionary Remember, as well as almost completely non violent people who were just dealt more difficult hands, like June and Jennifer Gibbons, the Silent Twins that you covered. So we have been to broad More many times here and today we're back at the hospital.

It's nineteen eighty nine and we're in the central Hall. Usually during the day the space would be full of patients seeing visitors. In the evening, it's where the hospital will occasionally host a disco for patients who can safely socialize. Today, however, it's being used for a production of Hamlet put on by the Royal Shakespeare Company, with its creative director the actor Mark Rylance in the title role. Hell Yes you know Mark Rayland's Hell Yes. The audience is mostly broad More patients. They have a much more intimate knowledge of the play's subject matter, of the violence and mental illness of Hamlet, than perhaps any prior audience has ever had.

In honor of mental health Awareness months. Today we're telling the story of how Shakespeare came to Broadmore and how those performances affected the patients, staff, the actors in the hospital.

Wow, Mark Raylands, I got to see him on Broadway. It's like Labette or something like that. In it he did a fifteen minute monologue Jesus Christ and it just him holding forth And he's one of the most compelling, incredible well stage actors. Obviously movie actors, but like on stage, you can't take your eyes off him.

We have a photo of him in Hamlet when he was younger. If people want to.

See it, Oh, yes, right, that's right, Like.

That is an acteur, acteur acteur, but.

Also the thing of like in England. And this was the one time I got a part and I had to go to Glasgow to do it right. Many of the cast members that I was acting with had gone to the Royal Shakespeare Academy and it is it unnerved me. From the first moment I stepped into the rehearsal room, I was just like, what am I doing?

I wanted you're a Sacramento State dropout, come on Shakespeare Company Royal.

Although Tom Hanks did go to Saxton and he did drama there there you go, and I think he graduated.

I don't know.

I don't know, but look at you now, but I just have so much respect for that.

Yes, it's a big, huge, important thing. Yes, like Julliard. So the main source for the story is a book called Shakespeare Comes to Broadmoor, which was compiled by the doctor who spearheaded this program, doctor Murray Cox. And the rest of the sources are in the show notes and also shout out to Molly Smith and Ali Elkin, my wonderful researcher for this idea. I just I wouldn't have stumbled upon this and I just love it. Yeah, it's good fun. So this all begins with psychiatrist named Murray Cox.

He's born in Birmingham, England, in itteen thirty one. He goes to Saint Catherine's College at Cambridge, then trains as a doctor at London Hospital. He works as a general practitioner for about ten years before becoming a psychiatrist, and he first works as a forensic psychiatrist at a prison before taking a position at Broadmoor in nineteen seventy, when he's about thirty nine years old. So throughout his career at Broadmoor, Murray Cox becomes known for three things. His insistence in seeing the humanity of each of his patients, which sadly is a kind of rare thing, seems like these those days and these days maybe his Christian faith, and his affinity for the theater, for theater, especially for

Shakespeare's place.

The way you said at the version, I was like for the theater.

Theater you may remember from English class if you weren't sleeping through it, or from Shakespeare in Love that in Elizabeth in London, poor people who led pretty miserable lives were able to get standing room tickets on the floor at the Globe Theater to see live performances of Shakespeare's play, which was a huge deal. It makes doctor Cox consider that theater may have had some therapeutic effect. Even then, Doctor Cox presents these ideas at a conference of Shakespeare's scholars, and that's when he first meets Mark Rylance. So they get coffee together in May of nineteen eighty nine, right around when the Royal Shakespeare Company is about to perform Hamlet.

Doctor Cox tells Riolence that he discusses Shakespeare with patients sometimes in their sessions, especially the ones who remember reading the plays in school, and he says he has frank discussions with those patients about the violence in the plays and the portrayals of madness quote unquote, and whether they can relate, and so he uses them as a tool to get them to open up. During that coffee meeting, Riolence has the idea of bringing a production of Hamlet to the hospital and it totally makes you think of when the Cramps went to a psychiatric constitution as well and played like their best show. Yeah, there's a video of that online.

It feels like so truly like we're being artists here when you do stuff like that, where you're like, we're not sitting here talking about like how are we going to make it whatever. It's like Mark Rylands is like, how do I take this talent and do something that for the good?

Totally And it's like the importance of art in mental health and that people actually recognize that is so important. Yeah, you know nowadays it doesn't even happen, but back then it's really it's really impressive. Yeah. So, after some logistical planning and some back and forth, it is agreed that for one night only. The Royal Shakespeare Company will bring its production of Hamlet to Broadmoor Hospital. The performance takes place in August of nineteen eighty nine. I was just nine years old. Oh yeah, nineteen okay, and so here we are nine and nineteen live in our lives. I thought it would be interesting to those who weren't alive then and don't have the PTSD that we have, and that everyone from that time has to understand what a

turbulent shit show the world was at that moment, and why having this moment of art and peace would have been so impactful to the patients, Because I mean, I heard nineteen eighty nine and I'm like, oh, that was hard. And then I realized, like, not everyone knows who listens to this was live then, right, So here are some fucked up things and shout out to Wikipedia for the help.

The massively destructive Exxon Bealdees spill had just happened. Colombia's war on drugs, where Colombian drug cartels declared total and absolute war against the government, was raging, and in August of nineteen eighty nine, it was a critical and chaotic turning point in the final months of the Cold war, with anti communist revolutions happening in Central and Eastern Europe and the fall of the Berlin Wall just a couple months away. Yeah, so is very turbulent. I have more more horrible things. The pro democracy student demonstrations in Beijing's Tianeman Square had just been violently and publicly suppressed by the Chinese government. Apartheid in South Africa was raging, with a seventy year old Nelson Mandela sentenced to life in

prison for conspiring to overthrow the state. There's more. The troubles in North Ireland were violently raging, with the provisional IRA conducting paramilitary campaigns on British military targets and civilians in the British mainland.

What well, I just want you know, we're talking about the IRA targeting the British. They should have been there, no, one hundred percent. I mean if they had just gone there nobody.

Yes, it was not always started, it was not on a way street. Doesn't happen. And then let's not get started on Serbian Kosovo or the Middle East and the Gulf War that's about to pop off. But don't worry. Just to end this on that like but.

There's also a hole in the ozone layer.

Right. Oh yeah, we were freaking out about that, remember that. Yep. But just to cap that with something positive, Taylor Swift is born that year, so it's going to be okay.

Oh I didn't realize what it's true Swift you.

Are, Everything's going to be okay, okay. Well, her album's called nineteen eighty nine, so like, I'm not Oh, I'm not brilliant.

Oh I just just a reference.

So we're here in Broadmoor Central Hall under the disco ball that's used for the hospital discos. Take me there, and it's you're gonna love this. It's an in the round performance, which we intimately know about because we did that on like our first or second leg of our tour in Arizona.

And they're doing it for Hamlet.

Yeah, so tell everyone who doesn't know what in the round means.

I believe it was the Celebrity theater in either Phoenix or Tucson.

I think was Phoenix Phoenix.

And we didn't know until we arrived that night that this would be not just a stage in the round, which means everyone can see you at all times.

There's no you can like a gladiator. You're in the middle of a fucking gladiator theater. They're like no.

But also that this stage rotated, so it wasn't a still round stage where you could kind of be like, well, now I'm going to walk over here.

Yeah, you just moved there.

And it was really slow, kind of like the old holiday and in Hollywood they had the rotating restaurant. We're just kind of like, it's not crazy, but it's also not still right, and we were out of our minds.

It was the bustlat It was so hilarious. I don't remember anything about that time, and I fucking will never forget being in the round.

I will never forget the two girls that I used as my twelve o'clock because I was like.

Okay, now we're back here again. Yeah. I definitely got seasick. Okay. Yeah, So all patients and staff sit around the actors who perform in the central circle, and so this new venue is a bit of an adjustment. At first, the actors had been performing for two thousand people in Shakespeare's hometown of Strapford upon Avon, so they're kind of figuring out how allowed to be like. But it quickly becomes a very intimate and for that reason powerful performance. The actors say they can feel a palpable difference in this performance.

Certain speeches don't seem to have quite their usual reception, but others that normally wouldn't get me tension or you know, any kind of response response are imbued with a newfound potency. So after the performance, the actors have a talkback session with the patients and the staff, and it's clear that this has been a positive experience for everyone. Mark Rylance says he's sad to go back to his normal performances after that. The performance at Broadmoor had been such a welcome escape, and in some ways the audience there could relate to the content so much more powerfully than typical theater goers. Yeah right, So if you remember the play, I'm sure you do, but let me just say Hamlet's mental health and Ophelia's mental health are central elements. In

the end, Hamlet forces his uncle to confront the fact that he committed a murder by making him watch a play about it. So this is very powerful in a room that contains people who have committed similar crimes, and it seems like this play has touched people's consciences in a way nothing really has before. So the Royal Shakespeare Company goes back to their scheduled performances in Stratford. Rylance says, quote, it was awful going back to Stratford after that, going back to the audiences, they felt much more in prison the audiences. Funnily enough, in Stratford, I always imagine that you are talking to people on the level on which they want to communicate, and that's fine, but it was difficult after Broadmore, where we thought we were having a

wonderful conversation end quote. On the patient side, the performance has a deep.

On the patient's side, they thought the performances were lacking.

They actually hated it, and so they decided to put their own performance.

They're so critical about the acting where it's just like I just didn't believe it. I could do it better. That's how this podcast came.

On the patient side, the performance has deep and lasting impacts. Doctor Cox will later write, quote, the insurgence of the Hamlet Company and its non judgmental energies opened doors of possibility which have not closed end quote. There are the therapeutic effects of seeing live theater, of course, but there's also impacts to the patient's self esteem by participating in something that the rest of the outside world gets to participate in as well. I treated like humans. Yeah. The Royal Shakespeare Company tours with this production, mounting it in several different locations. So when the London leg of the tour is reviewed in the Guardian, patients at Broadmoor read the review and get to know exactly what the critic

is talking about. So they're participating. And one patient, now, David Caldwell, writes a letter to the editor he's a patient of Broadmore, saying quote, I did not see Hamlet staged at the Barbicane or the Old vic. The RSC's stage was the wooden floor of the Central Hall here in Broadmore. The only scenery was the nicotine stained walls and the backdrop of age loyal drapes. Mark Rylance was able to capture every aspect of a person's slip into the world of psychopathic, manipulative paranoia. Many of us here in Broadmore are able to understand Hamlet's disturbed state because we have experienced such traumas. We are most grateful for the cast spectacular efforts in staging Hamlet, or us for free of charge, and on one of their infrequent days off.

I didn't.

I mean I was kind of thinking about that, but then the idea your story is not some you know, maybe in your family you're the only one, or maybe in your town you were the crazy person. Yea, your story is as old as time, right, this is what people have been dealing with since the beginning of time.

Totally, and someone in a regular theatergoer would couldn't can't understand. You have to understand, right, they can watch it purely as entertainment rather than like, you know.

It's like a little telegram from Shakespeare to those patients. Totally, over hundreds of years. I mean that must have felt wild incredible.

Yeah it did.

I loved it, Okay.

So the experience is so positive for everyone that the Royal Shakespeare Company returns in nineteen ninety to perform Romeo and Juliet, and in nineteen ninety one the Royal National Theater performs king Lear. In king Lear or Brian Cox from Succession plays the title role and Sir Ian McKellen plays the Earl of Kent. So late, yeah, I photos these are two of the greatest actors of all, you know, modern actors of all time? Yes, and they're yes, Bran Cox, amazing right. Yeah.

Also like I wish that people cared about acting more in America the way they do over there, because it's like a it's a true trade. It's like you go into it, it's you're respected, it's like you want to be doracle.

It's not just like money making.

Have you ever seen that thing where Judy Dench was on Graham Norton and they ask her to just perform a little bit of Shakespeare and she just does this thing and she goes like zip and then she's like speaking and talking, but it's the most compelling. You don't know what she's saying per se. Yeah, and it's the most compelling thing. It's like the people who know how to do that right are like wizards.

No, that's so true. So all of these plays that they are staging deal with violence and mental illness described as madness in Shakespeare's language, and all the actors talk about how the broadmore audience would react to lines that went over everyone else's heads. Brian Cox and Ian McKellen talk about how the experience reinvigorated their passion for the plays.

McClellan writes that the actors quote, we're reminded of the purpose of playing, which can too often be obscured by the pressures of first nights and of long runs. Who do we do these plays for anonymous audiences whom we never meet, directors who we meet all too often, or drama critics who sometimes tell us they're bored with Hamlet End quote. A reporter goes along to the performance of King Lear and notes how it moved the audience. Afterward, a doctor tells her quote, patients will go on talking about these performances for months, even years afterward. They come up in dreams and therapeutic sessions. End quote. As these productions continue a broad more a drama program there also becomes more robust under a new creative unit that uses

the arts for therapy. Is very positive effects for patients, and it must be I have to just note this. It's around the same time, and it sounds like part of this effort comes through Jimmy Savile. No, so like the arts program, Like we can't just freeze over that. Oh, no, scuff, it's tainted.

So say that is one of the many hideous things about people like Jimmy Savile where because you are a wolf in sheep's clothing and your beer, basically exploiting this opportunity that actually is very needed and wanted of people volunteering and helping in places like that where maybe everybody doesn't care as much.

Right, like you tainted it for everyone for life. Yeah, don't be a bucking monster. So well publicized improvements to conditions at Broadmore inevitably leads to backlash. Some people in Broadmore have committed violent and horrible acts, and there's an attitude among the public that the patients there are living the high life on tax payer money. Before King Lee, a Conservative member of parliament, attacks the initiative, saying, quote, why on earth should taxpayers fund the RSC to perform to a bunch of psychopathic killers? End quote. And it's like that's the attitude that leads people to be in prison for life and in and out.

And well and also it's just it's the easiest attitude to have.

Totally.

They're all bad the end.

Yeah, and they don't deserve good things.

Yeah, And like we've done this show enough to be like, oh right, there's so much nuance.

Yeah, there's no humanity in that way of thinking, not.

Whatsoever, because also it's like maybe there are killers there. What about all the people that got put there when they were teenagers? Yeah, because their mental illness makes it so that someone has to take care of them.

And even the violence, you have to say, like where did they come from? What advantages and disadvantages do they have that other people didn't? Yeah, yeah, it's nuanced. Yeah, So it doesn't seem like there's a direct link between this backlash and an end to the performances. But the professional performances by the National shit tkex Sphere Companies at Broadmoor are limited to these three performances in the late eighties and early nineties, but the use of theater and the arts in therapy has lived on at Broadmore. We don't know about any of the identities of the patients who saw the plays other than David who wrote that letter to the Guardian, so we don't know if any of the people we have covered on the show were

present at any of the performances. However, Ron Cray and June and Jennifer Gibbons would have been there at that time, so it's possible that they saw those performances.

I'm going to write a musical about the audience of that girl.

Come on, do it, sing us the opening song.

I'm Ronnie Cray and I don't care what you say. Hey, hey, hey, it's easy to rhyme.

Len you don't have a time, don't have the time.

Many times, this is the worst song we've ever written.

We're gonna work on it. Shakespeare's plays are often compared to a mirror, reflecting the audience so that they can see their own lives in the stories. Doctor Cox says this quality is what gives them their therapeutic value. He says, quote, in therapy, we try to help what has been buried to become conscious, but that's only half the story. What becomes conscious has to become integrated so that can accept my aggression, depression, little self esteem. It's making something you can't tolerate into an integrated part of yourself. That's like that end quote. And that's actually what my therapist calls and what is called parts work, which is a really interesting kind of therapy. There's a great book on it.

And what is that that you're just there's many parts.

Of you, yeah, and whatever one is leading is you know, like you're acting the way that helped you at one time to get through life, probably as a child, and you're still figuring that out. But there's other parts of you, including that part that needs to be addressed and needs to be shown. They're safe now and they're taking care of not just like suppressed. So suppressing the angry part of you isn't going to get rid of it. But understanding why that anger is there and what happened when it came like and what happened in your life when you needed it is the way to work through it.

Happy birthday, Targia.

That was beautiful.

Thank you.

I mean that's so true. It is so true. It's I mean, I was in therapy for years before I could really get that. It's because it's really hard, and it is that kind of thing where it's like much like watching a play, you have to look back and tell yourself different stories about the experiences that you've had, which is can be hard in and of itself.

Yeah, you're contextualizing all the history and as that personality, and that personality might not be correct about what they're assessing, like you can you know what I mean, it's just or it's just one version exactly. Yeah, so it's called the books called parts work, and to put it better at doctor Cox quote the tempest and says, quote this thing of darkness, I acknowledge mine end quote. And that is the story of how Shakespeare came to broad Moore.

Hell yeah, a mental health awareness month.

I love that story.

Yeah, it wasn't that cool? Thank you Ali and Molly for suggesting it. Whatever. Great, yeah, great job. Yeah.

Also just those actors, like, because I bet you there's about twenty five other actors that are like lesser known that would have been in I'm going to absolutely look up who was in all those productions and.

Who knows what it did to them?

Right exactly, Because like when you go out and you're acting, you're just like, okay, I'm facing this way, three quarters this way.

It's the same pretty much.

You're playing silences that you know will be there. Right, here's the big part where they clap for it, holding up a skull or whatever the fuck it is. And suddenly now it's like it's probably very similar to but they would never do this doing it for a grammar school. Yeah, where it's like now they're laughing at some weird thing whatever. Wow, that was great. Yeah, thank you Mark Rylance for the win.

Yeah.

Okay, Well we're going to go in a different direction. Please, We're going to come back to America where you were born and raised. Pay your taxes, shut out the iris.

God damn it.

Yeah. If you didn't pay yours, that means I didn't pay mine. This is a story that I was going to do when we were on tour, and I was so excited about it, and then but it came down to it was the Chicago show, but this is a Wisconsin story, okay, and so the Chicago story is a little more Chicago y. And so we saved this one.

And finally Molly Smith, again our producer, a great producer, Molly Smith, was like, what if we do that one on your birthday? It was like, that's such a good idea. Oh God, what is it? Well, it's basically it was just the thirty fifth anniversary of this event this month. It happened on Friday May third, nineteen ninety one, around the same time as your event. It happened on the east side of Madison, Wisconsin, at a business called Central Storage and Warehouse, which is a massive storage complex consisting of five buildings inside these buildings, they store an unimaginable amount of food and dairy products. The Associated Press reports that it's about fifty three million pounds of food, including

quote wieners, thank sword to God, that's the ap wieners, wieners, cranberries at about fourteen million pounds of surplus government butter and cheese.

I have a feeling I know what happens when heavy stuff is in the warehouse.

Maron added this note, which is so, maren, fifty three million pounds is very roughly the weight of one hundred and seventy blue whales.

Thank you. That's a lot.

That's that's several pods of blue whales.

Yeah.

So on this day in nineteen ninety one, about twenty or so CSW Central Storage and Warehouse employees are clocked in. It's the afternoon on a Friday, so the end of a long work week is just around the corner. But things are about to take a very unexpected and unfortunate turn, because somewhere in this massive complex, a small spark will ignite, and soon it'll build into a fire that will be among the most destructive in Madison's history. This is the story of the nineteen ninety one Wisconsin Butterfire.

Butterfire. I was totally thinking you were going sinkhole. Oh you were like it was really heavy. I was like, yeah, I know what happens when things are heavy.

I mean, that's a great idea.

This what No, I'm like, this is it.

I also feel like the story of a sinkhole is just like it's saying it's a sinkhole, it's sank and then it's a whole. Some cars fell in and I hope people didn't die.

Yeah. No, okay, fire love it? I hate it, hate it, hate it.

We got a The articles used as sources today are some from the Associated Press and the Wisconsin State Journal Archives. There was a twenty twenty two piece by journalist John Onkin that ran in the Wisconsin State Farmer, which just precious name.

For a new love of that one, Let's keep it alive.

And then a nineteen ninety one piece from a magazine called Fire Engineering.

Wow.

Home Gym is a subscriber entitled Central Storage Warehouse Fire Madison, Wisconsin. Okay, grabby headlines, get readers. The rest of the sources are in our show notes. I started off by saying, have you ever tried to brown butter. I thought it smelled really good at versus what I was thinking. I bet it did brown butter rice, chrisp retreats. Next time you make rice, Chris retreats. Everyone brown lightly brown, the butter round.

That butter life changing. But you got to stand there. It's like a thing. There's all these fats, and there's all this chemical reaction and all this stuff to it. And then if you wait one second too long for Burnett. So let's just all get in our minds in that way of what we're dealing with here. Okay, So what really happens is this. The battery in one of the forklifts, sparks and starts a small fire in the one warehouse.

The sprinkler system immediately kicks on. A couple of employees hit the flames with fire extinguishers, but they can't put it out. Luckily, there is a fire station one block away, so those guys arrive immediately.

They better.

So some firefighters attack this fire with hoses. Others make sure all the building's doors are shut so no oxygen gets in to feed the blaze. Now the firefighters are feeling like they have things under control, but there is a problem. The walls of this building have flammable insulation, so when the fire gets to the walls, it just immediately shoots up to the ceiling and burns a large hole in the roof. And it's a windy day in Madison this day. Once that whole even starts, fresh air rushes in, it feeds the blaze, and the fire starts to grow exponentially. So basically it all starts like a campfire, a small flame, someone blows on it, and now you're having the best senior Spring week beach kre Ever, that's

my funny joke that I wrote it at the end of that line. A key difference from your typical campfire, though, is that in this scenario, the kindling is millions of pounds of oily, fatty foods.

Right fat that's bad, Right, it's bad.

It's bad because it's a great fuel.

Right.

But it also the smell, which we will get to. Okay, so Madison East Fire Department Chief Raunch smellser will tell reporters, quote, what we got here is a massive grease fire. Oh wait sorry, oh yeah, what we got here is a massive grease fier.

Eh it's a Canadian.

Well, I had to come hard to come up from wherever I was at the beginning. Yeah, and Madison and Fire Department spokesperson Tom Olshansky will add quote, when you splash water on a grease fire, it just splashes back at you.

We learned a long time ago, you're supposed to use baking, baking soda. Soda.

I'm going to go back over that to fix the damage home Jim and I did with that misstatement that we made basically going to listen. No one's going to listen this time. It's our no, no that one. Oh, okay, okay, great. So these fire crews have to be strategic because they can't just go in douse the flames with water that will make it worse. But even the most seasoned firefighter on the scene, and there will eventually be seventy firefighters fighting this fire, none of them can claim to have ever fought a warehouse sized grease fire. Before they have to get creative. Some crews tackle the central grease fire, so the one that's right on top of the melted food products inside the warehouse. Others are hosing down the

outside of the building, the roof and any adjacent buildings keep to keep the fire from spreading, and those guys can use as much water as they want to, and they do at a rate of five thousand gallons a minute. Oh my god, but the fire keeps burning and expanding. And since home Jim and I really messed it up the first time, let's use this teaching moment to give the correct information of how to extinguish a grease fire.

Do not use water on those flames, okay. Do not move the burning pot or pan that you have this grease fire in like a lot of people try to move it to the sink and the fire goes up places like the grease will splash. Okay, if it's safe to do so, turn off the heat source. That's a big one people forget totally. Yeah, and if the fire is small enough, you can cover the flames with a lid or baking sheet. Only something metal, nothing.

Glass, right, or like, throw a towel over it?

No towels? I bet you that's did my dad say throw a towel?

No? But I feel like I would throw a towel at something Yep, fire, something metal.

You can definitely pour baking soda on top. I think that's the thing they really recommend. Yeah, but if the fire isn't going out or it's spreading, you can go ahead and grab that fire extinguisher you don't know how to use. Also, don't be a hero. If the flames spread or you feel unsafe in any way, just get outside and call nine one one.

I own like five or six fire extinguishers.

Now do you Yeah, do you have the You know, one thing they say is cut that little piece of plastic, the plastic ring.

Yeah, so you can just get it going. It's gonna do that. Still, it's still in the box.

When you it's up in the attic. But the fire we're talking about today does not go easy, of course. In fact, no matter how the firefighters approach it, it just keeps growing and it becomes so massive. The smoke can be seen from miles and the heat is so intense from this fire that drivers that are driving by on the nearby Inner State Freeway can feel it from inside their car. Oh no, seek a look at what it looked like.

Whoa, that's a big fucking fire.

Yeprut Yeah, Central Storage. And also their mascot is a polar Bear. Cocaine bear, poor cocaine Bear. So one of the few silver linings here is that all of the staffers at CSW have evacuated the building. Only one employee has to be treated for minor injuries. So as far as good news, we've got that and that's about it. Yeah, because the closer you get to see USW, the more hellish the scene is. There's a thick smoke and ash covering everything. But since the source of this fire's processed foods, the smell it gives off is disgusting, and the flames reportedly reach eventually three hundred feet into the sky, about the height of the Statue of Liberty. No, we have a different angle just to see kind of how big

this thing.

Is to start. Wow, that's tiny, little fire.

I mean a little fire truck over there for scale.

Nothing.

So now it's six pm and it's three hours into this ordeal. Firefighters are working hard to contain as blaze, but they are struggling, and as things continue to deteriorate, a new threat evolves. The flames have reached a second building in that complex, and they're creeping toward a third And these buildings store hazardous chemicals that are used by CSW for everything from cleaning to fueling, refrigeration, systems including sulfuric acid, potassium hydroxide, and ammonia.

Are they flammable?

Oh yeah, they're bad. So there's a new threat that if the fire reaches those storage areas, there will be not just more fire, a dangerous cloud of fiery, toxic fumes. So as the exterior battle to contain the blaze continues, their crews sent into those at risk buildings to shut off any systems that might circulate those dangerous chemicals, like the refrigeration systems, and if possible, they physically haul the chemical reserves out of those buildings to safety. This whole fire and this whole disaster has like a whack a mole energy because the problems just keep coming up as ones go down. Reports vary on when this happens, but sometime between eight and eleven o'clock at night, the building

where the fire first started collapses.

Wow.

And when it does, a wave of melted lard, butter, and cheese comes pouring out of the building, with some sources claiming that it's two to three feet high when it does.

But butter, cheese, and lard, Oh god, ew, look at it.

That's all like melted processed food and butter and margarine is so bad.

That's gross. Okay.

So Stephen Davis, who is the city of Madison's fire chief at the time, will describe it as quote literally, a river of butter just comes pouring out.

What do you even do? Like I would just be like, this is I can't do anything.

Those firemen, I mean like they're swearing, they're laughing for sure, they're making references to other people's cooking. Yeah, this is like that's spaginning. You made the other That's just my opinion, all editorial. It is important to say all the firefighters make it through this building collapse unscathed, although the fire is still raging. The tidal wave of melted food does seem to dilute the most concentrated parts of that grease fire, which is great. It takes disgusting sludge to put out a grease fire. But we're talking about fifteen million pounds of liquefied dairy. So now they have all new problems because you saw how much goo there was and how nasty it looked. One report notes that quote one firefighter

inadvertently sank up to his chest in butter and nearly lost his boots as comrades pulled him to safety end quote, and another describes it as quote discussing to look at difficult to slog through.

Tom, get out of the fucking pudd all get out.

Of there, God damn, get me out of here, you guys. The Associated press will write about what they call the quote traces of black comedy, as these firefighters are forced to trudge through the slop that has now made everything incredibly slippery. Oh, some hoses slip right out of their hands, when others are able to hold onto the hoses. When they turn the water on, they get knocked backwards by the forest. When they try to get back up, they're slipping and sliding.

All over the place. That's a three Stooges episode. It completely.

Meanwhile, the excess water runoff is mixing with this oily goo, so streams of contaminated burnt buttery glop are just flowing downward from the complex. Some of this but eventually pools in low areas up to five feet in some place, while other streams stretch onto nearby roads. The hardest road hit is the one that runs along outside CSW, which is called Cottage Grove Road. It becomes so dangerously slick that a city engineer describes it as quote like ice in winter. It gets so bad they actually have to close that road. No, you can't have anybody driving on it because you're flipping around. And still the butterfire burns into the night. There seemed to be no end in sight for these poor slippery firefighters. Fire Chief Stephen Davis

was there for the butter tidal wave heat tells reporters that he had quote butter in places a guy shouldn't have butter.

But at the end of the night end quote DMI bro.

Listen, Stephen Davis is going to tell you how it is like it is.

Come with me to the butter.

For me to get your better treatment. Around eleven PM, the roof on one of the other still burning buildings implodes, so evacuation orders are put into place for all the residents in the area around CSW. Emergency workers are still worried about fire reaching those chemical reserves, especially ammonia, because while the crews were able to shut down the system that circulates ammonia through the refrigeration like conductor, have you.

See me nodding?

You're like, oh, yes, I'm just reading this page. There's still a seven seven hundred and fifty pound capacity ammonia tank that's on site that they can't move. So the fire can't get to that thing because it's huge and it's basically a bomb waiting to go off. So the local police have to drive around with bullhorns telling people to leave their homes while cities workers scramble to put together emergency shelter. It's like, you got to get out of here.

Yeah, well where do we go?

And because it's Madison, Wisconsin, they pull it off.

They do it.

Three thousand residents wow, including a couple hundred from a nearby nursing home, are directed to shelter at a local high school, with the last evacuees leaving their homes around two am Saturday morning. Oh fuck that shit, it's just going.

Yeah.

When these people are interviewed by reporters, they have a delightful and deeply Wisconsinian attitude about the whole event. Okay, I'm really going to try to focus on this one. One local describes the scene there as quote real calm, goodnes, that's good, thank you. We just sat in the common areas in the high school and visited. We weren't scared we weren't scared. It was a new experience. I'm kind of doing Maria Bamford doing her mom.

Yeah, because that's good.

That's as close as I can get. So they're having a nice time. All the while, the fucking butterfire is still burning. So while they're cool and chill, they are facing the possibility of never seeing their homes again, because if the ammonia tank goes, we all go. Fortunately, by three point thirty that morning, fire crews have fought and finally won the battle against the butterfire, and they do keep the blaze away from the amona tanks. The residents are told they can go home, but instead they stay and they make jams and jellies for the high schoolers.

That's not true, but wouldn't that be fun if like, why don't we go to the high school more? Okay, So now it's dawn on Saturday. You know it's breaking dawn Saturday, May fourth. Firefighters are still hard at work. Everything is being done in a life size vat of melted buttery shit, so fire engines and other emergency vehicles are getting stuck in the sludge so that it's getting hard to get the fuel trucks into ref fuel or move equipment around at all. I think we have more pictures right of just the like the buttery mess.

Ew it's like a fucking raging river of butter up to his thighs.

I mean it is a fireman. It looks like he's down in floodwaters.

Yeah, can I say that? I bet their skin was so soft for like.

Weeks afterwards, and they're kind of.

Delicious, like looking in your hand. Do you want to go to the movies? I don't know why, but do you want to.

Go to the movies?

That's fucking crazy, so wild.

So again they have to get creative with solving this problem because everything is so crazy slippery, so they get mechanics. They send in mechanics on foot holding five gallon buckets of diesel to refuel the trucks. They also have to slash through thick pools of grease while they do that, so they have to make sure they don't fall down and add like gasoline to this issue. But the tides are turning and bite. Six pm Saturday evening, the situation is downgraded to basically just a fire watch, meaning that it's still unsafe in general, but it's nowhere near obviously the four alarm fire from the day before, and that's a huge victory. But now there are crises beyond the fire because for hours, biologists and city engineers have been

at the scene, tasked of keeping all that greasy runoff from flowing into the nearby stark Weather Creek, because if that goes there, you're just killing everything in that creek. No, these officials haven't had a lot of time to think through a game plan. They don't have a butter fire game plan. And that's why I am running for comptroller of Madison, Wisconsin.

Oh god, there's a fucking there's a big binder for everything. Oh my god.

And if all the buttermilks we go down there with some nice Parker house rolls, it's not a good it's not a good accent Parker house rolls, but they rise to the occasion. Front end loaders, which are basically those the kind of trucks little kids like the best, but the big scoopers on the front is the way I'll describe them to you, and I get it. They're brought in and they basically they bring in sand, so like hutter box exactly exactly. They're just absorbing up as much butter as they can. Emergency workers also start digging deep trenches hundreds of feet long in some cases to basically trap rank dairy runoff as it's heading downhill to make basically directed away.

From the creek.

These trenches are sometimes referred to and reporting as quote lagoons of melted butter type stuff. And apparently they smell god awful.

Really, because it's like rotting at that point. Yeah, I'm hot.

And you're just mixing gross you know, it's like cool ranch dorito mix with margarine.

No, that would be good.

And the sprinkles on the tests right, Okay. So by the next day, Sunday, May fifth, fire Chief Raunch Smeltzer gives an update to reporters, telling them, quote, this fire will probably still be burning Wednesday. Yet it's a little yet at the end yet end quote. But things are moving in the right direction. That same day, Cottage Grove Road, which has now been nicknamed Cottage Cheese Road come on by the locals, partially reopens to the public and a line of teenagers in their cars are waiting to spin donuts.

How bomber is everyone that it's happening on a weekend and not like I can't go to work today.

I'm so sorry I can't be at that meeting. Yeah, I'd love to meet you. So the Great Wisconsin Butterfire is officially extinguished. On Saturday, May eleventh, your birthday for my birthday, that is actually my twenty first birthday.

Wow, what was care and Kill Cara doing that day?

I'll tell you what. I know exactly what I was doing. I it was in Sacramento, and I want all my friends. I wanted to go to a bar. I didn't think anyone else.

Would go to.

So there's a bar used to drive by on fulsome Avenue all the time, and I can't remember the name. I'll have to look it up, but it was basically a biker bar, and I made everyone meet me there. I like, we all met there, and from when we got there, which is, you know, seven o'clock or whatever, we were just like hanging out and laughing. And finally this guy comes over in a full on like Hell's Angels, like he's an extra in a Hell's Angels movie, and he goes.

Why do you guys come here?

We're just like, I don't know, we were just trying to be like bitch you and people end up like playing pool and having fun.

They were very nice to us.

I think they were retired. Okay, so to hell.

The angels retire?

Can they are they allowed to? They retire from violence, right and mayhem and they help children and Santa Claus.

Okay.

This is eight days after the fire first breaks out. It takes eight days for this thing to be over. In the end, the fire crews are able to save three of csw's five warehouses. No lives are lost, thank God, which is of course a huge accomplishment both of those things. The tearful owner of the complex, a man named Ken Williams, is genuinely devastated at this huge loss to his family business.

And they do find out fire investigators go in and it is the spark from this from that, just a random yeah, like no one's fault, thank god, Ken Williams tells reporters quote, thank God for the chief and his people for their hard work. At times, it was like the battle of.

The bulge out there.

With butter, the butter of the bulge, the butter, bottle of the butter, the pre bulge, the butter. Now we're onto the cleanup, which is a lingering and expensive crisis in and of itself. For starters, again, We're at the smell. A Facebook group made up of Madison residents commiserate about the pervasive stench. In a post made last year, still oh, still talking about it. One user remembers how they quote had to keep the car windows up in the ac off when I drove past THESW for two to three summers.

Wow.

Uh huh, that's nasty.

End quote.

Another will add quote, I can still smell the rancid dairy because it's just such a different smell than you've ever probably smelled before.

Yeah, and not one that you want to like, continue to smell.

No, but guess who did continue to smell it? The firemen, because that butter sludge was all over their trucks, their fire equipment, their hoses, and their uniforms that now have to be not only washed, but sanitized or maybe just thrown away. Meanwhile, big trucks sweep onto the cs W property to pick up in holloway debris. It's taken to the local dump, which has to extend its hours of operation to accommodate all of this sludge. Yes, but a bigger problem and a more difficult problem are those lagoons of fatty runoff.

We're just the worst phrase of all, lagoons of.

Fatty run tons of fatty runoff. Fire Department spokesman Tom ol Shansky describes this cleanup as quote not as volatile or explosive, but it's the toughest stuff to clean up next to radiation.

End quote. Cross sucks.

The same weekend the fire is finally extinguished, tom ol Shansky is interviewed in an NPR broadcast and he describes these challenges, which results in a bunch of unsolicited advice from listeners. The AP reports that quote suggestions to Olshansky's department include an Arizona callers recommendation that the University of Wisconsin come up with a device that would freeze the goo so it could simply be cut away. That's a recommendation where you go, I'm going to make up a dream scenario, and now you enact my dream scenario. If I knew things about Marvel characters, I could reference one that could do that with his eyes.

But I can't.

Ice ice Eye, good Old, Maureen, ice Eye, good old. Let it be a girl for one.

Thank you.

New York City man's is that his character New York City man. He's just got a white tank top on and he's chewing gum, big accent. This man claimed to work with Greece in his job. He says, kitty litter would stop up the masses. In the end, Madison consults with experts and uses what's described as a quote rendering process aimed at dissolving the fatty debris so that everything can be carefully pumped and disposed of through the city's sewer system. Officials are extremely careful with this process because lard can solidify in the sewer system and cause costly and destructive.

Blockages shit like in your arteries.

Have you heard of fat bergs? Now, this happened in New York City in their own sewer system because there was so much lard and grease and stuff that they had these things called fat bergs that were like icebergs. Yeah, but they were basically it was just like big clumps of stuff like that. They that were blocking the drains of the sewer and that all goes okay, and stark Weather Creek and the other bodies of water that it feeds are protected great. So as for the cost of this event. Many sources put the total it somewhere around one hundred million dollars, which in today's money from.

Nineteen ninety one one hundred million dollars one hundred million dollars in today's money is seven hundred million, two hundred and forty million.

Wow. Yeah, there's basically a little over double.

Okay.

So among those contributing to the cleanup costs are of course csw's owner Ken Williams. He has to pay like half a million dollars. The US Department of Agriculture gives two hundred thousand dollars, and the good folks over at Oscar Meyer Wieners, out of the goodness of their hearts, donate another fifty thousand dollars.

That's nice, nice people, But.

Also remember there's Wieners in that there. Sludge takes decades, basically until twenty eleven for CSW to finally finish rebuilding that complex.

That year.

Sorry I made it sound like to clean it up.

Yeah, that year.

Ken Williams tells the Wisconsin State Journal that quote, there were a lot of doubts. Really in a way, I thought I'd never see it, but we persevered.

End quote.

Or Ken, I know Ken Williams passed away in twenty twenty one, but his younger family members are now involved in the business and they are all very deeply indebted to the firefighters who worked for days, for eight days to basically save their family business. And this is a very cute front of the building.

That's a fire at on the on Cocaine Bear.

On Cocaine Bear. They did a little the cleanup in the background and the little celebration for the Madison Fire Department in the foreground, which is very nice. And that crew included raun Schmelzer, who would sum up this bizarre, grotesque and extremely hard fought job in playing terms telling a reporter quote, in my twenty five years as a firefighter, I have never seen anything like it. I think it's safe to say I won't see anything like it again in my career. And that's the story of the nineteen ninety one Wisconsin butterfire.

Wow, I've never heard of it.

Right, great job me either, Thank you?

Yeah, great birthday story right, Ah, you did it. This is how we celebrate. What are you gonna do for your birthday plans?

I think I'm going to go out of town to a relaxing a place that's very relaxing.

That's a good idea. My thing is, yeah, baby, I'm going to the strip. Oh god, yeah, the most relaxing place on the planet.

Everyone knows, everyone knows well, you know, it's really great. And this is again We'll just keep on talking about our producer Mollie Smith to suggest, why don't you take Monday off? Yeah, because it's your birthday. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm taking your birthday off too. Hey, great, it's gonna work out. I mean, well, great job, Thank you kindly.

We did it again. We have done it.

Proud of us, me too. It's like it's like we do yoga with swords. We bring back the real Nancy Drew.

We brown butter.

We brown butter, We don't burn butter.

We're basically Shakespearean actresses, actors who now know how to put out a basic grease fire. That's right.

If we're not giving you everything you need on this show, yeah, I don't understand what you need, and I don't know what else you need? Did I in all my fifty sixty years. I don't understand what the fuck you're looking for. Stay sexy and.

Don't get murdered. Bye Bye, Elvis. Do you want a Cookie?

This has been an exactly right production.

Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

Our editor is Aristotle l Ascevedo.

This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot com.

And follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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