Rufus Wainwright

Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and today we're revisiting Playing Along with Rufus Wainwright. This week, we're bringing back my episode with Rufus Wainwright, who's got a lot of exciting things coming up.

He's playing several U.S.

Shows in November, including performances of Wanted, Judy Garland. On December 6th, he'll be at Town Hall in New York City for Manhattan for the Holidays, a special benefit concert with Martha Wainwright, family and friends. He also has some international performances coming up in 2027, including his orchestral work, Dream Requiem. You can also hear Rufus on Susanna Hoff's recent album, The List, released September 18th on the song.

Bad Case of Loneliness.

It felt like a good time to bring back our conversation and the music we played together.

I hope you enjoy it.

Hey there.

I'm Nora.

With me, as usual, is Sarah Oda.

Hi. Hello.

Welcome to the show, everybody.

Oh, welcome to... Actually, I'm going to tell you guys a little secret. This is my first time seeing Sarah and she's on a FaceTime.

I had a baby.

I did.

I have become two people. Thank you so much.

She's got her little baby right there next to her.

This could go terribly wrong at any moment, but for right now... Okay, so we should.

Get to the intro.

Let's get to the intro.

For right now, she's snoozing.

Awesome.

But I did just want to say, we've been doing this podcast for over a year now, and we are just so thankful to our listeners for tuning in every time. subscribing and liking us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes.

Thank you so much. It's been so nice to feel like people are listening.

And we also have gotten so many great guest ideas from all of you. So thank you for that as well. And we are working on it. So stay tuned, follow us on social so you never miss a new episode. And gracias.

Arigato. Do it for the baby.

Grazie.

Okay, our guest today is the wonderfully poignant and evocative vocalist, songwriter, piano and guitar player, composer, and just incredibly charismatic person to be around, Ruthus Wainwright.

Yes, he's one of a kind.

He really is.

I've known him a long time, and it was such a pleasure to get together and sing, sing some songs.

His career spans over several studio albums, soundtracks to film and TV, classical operas, a musical, and not to mention the annual holiday concerts, which he produces with his sister, Martha Wainwright, called A Not So Silent Night. He stays very busy and is an extraordinarily creative human.

Yes, his new album, Folkocracy, is so cool. He's got a lot of special guests on it, and we get to talk about that a little. And it's just so fun to sing with someone like Rufus. And also, he plays piano. I play only on one song on this episode because he is such an incredible pianist. So we're going to get to hear his piano playing coming up top at the tippy top.

I'm excited.

You're going to love it.

Hope you enjoy our new episode with Rufus Wainwright.

Piano plays.

Softly I would love to do poses first because it's sort of my introduction.

To your music. Okay, yeah, we could try that.

And I fell in love with this song. My gosh.

I mean, I feel like this is one of those songs that gets the emotion, the harmonies you use are so beautiful.

You're piano playing, everything.

Yeah, I know. I mean, this one, I wrote it. Yeah, it was for my second album, and I wrote it. Partially in London and partially in New York.

Okay.

And I think the first half was in London and the second half was in New York. And it was sort of right at that moment where, you know, the high end of decadence was gleaming. Yeah. In all of its glory.

Everywhere or for you personally?

For me personally.

Gotcha.

And in the world. I mean, it was just like I was on top of the world in so many ways. But once getting there, I could then sort of see the drop, you know. And I think, yeah, in London, I'd sort of arrived, and it was very poetic and seductive, but also sad. But then once I got to New York, it just started to get a little more treacherous. The flip-flops on Fifth Avenue.

I love that line. I can picture it.

It's such a great line.

What's that chord? Is that a diminished chord?

In which part?

Do you mind if I just sprinkle.

A little bit in?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The yellow walls are.

Lined with portraits in them Thank you.

Thank you.

Black sunglasses All these poses Such beautiful poses Makes any boy Feel as pretty as princess Look.

Around in a tunnel Box conducting And the city streets are wondrous Chorus singing all these poses Oh, how can you blame me? Life is a game and true.

Love is a trophy and you said.

Watch my head about it.

Baby, you.

Oh no, oh.

No, oh no Oh no, oh no, no kidding.

Reclined amongst these packs of reasons For to smoke the days away Into the evenings All these poses of classical torture Ruined my mind.

Like a snake in the orchard I didn't go from wanting to be someone Now I'm drunk and wearing flip-flops on Fifth Avenue Once you've fallen from classical virtue Won't have a soul but to wake up and hold you And all the city streets are wondrous Chorus and all these pauses Now no longer boyish Made me a man of it Who cares what that is in you?

Oh, no.

And unknown, unknown, unknown Unknown, unknown.

No Oh, my God.

You're so good, Rufus.

Oh, honey.

It's good we did that one first.

It's so beautiful.

You just did it.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, that one, it's good we did it first because I can also psych myself up with that one. Like, if we've done a few.

Yeah.

And then we're like, and now we do poses.

Because it's so grand.

There's a possibility that I'll just, like. forget, like I'll space out or I'll forget like a note.

It is so grand, that song.

Without being any pretension or precious, you know what I mean?

Like it's just from the heart.

It was affected, you know, one of the main influences of that song was actually, you know, Oum Karsoum?

No.

She's like an Egyptian, she's probably the most renowned and beloved Egyptian classical singer, you know, around the, early 20th century, mid-20th century. But she only sang in the Middle East. I think she sang once in Paris. But she just had her voice. She had the greatest voice of all time. And it's that Egyptian-style Middle Eastern. But that... No, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's more of like an Eastern kind of... Egyptian thing. That's cool.

That's cool. And what's that chord? Is that a diminished chord?

Oh, God, I don't know. You mean on that part?

No, when you say poses.

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's what that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think so.

But the way you voice it, the way you do a drop-to thing.

Yeah, I mean, that's what it is.

Yeah.

Yeah, you do the.

Yeah, there's a second in there.

But the way you.

It's so cool.

I couldn't figure it out.

I was like, I think that's diminished, but I cannot figure it out.

I mean, I will say that it's a bit... It's both my superpower and also my... A bit like Superman, actually, where Kryptonite gives him his power, but it's also where you're the most vulnerable.

Oh, yeah.

Because I'm just... I'm really... Unlike Kate, who you knew well, Kate McGarrett, my mom... who could jam with anything and just would really love playing instruments, probably more than anything, and just would get into the song and like any style, any kind of mood. And I'm the polar opposite of that.

Every note is completely composed and it's always the same arrangement.

Okay, I didn't realize that.

Yeah, yeah. And it's a bit of my Achilles heel to actually sit down and... I've tried. I should do it more. You know what's actually great?

What?

Is that I did it sort of recently, and what happened is that we did these Christmas shows. We do these family Christmas shows, which I hope you will join us.

Yeah.

In New York.

Well, I feel like I did maybe the first version.

Of it somewhere.

Yeah, you did it at Carnegie Hall or something.

Yeah, or it wasn't the first, but it was one of them.

But you've got to do it again. At Town Hall. But we did, you know, now that Kate's passed, and also I have an Aunt Jane who is a great pianist too, but her health is, you know, delicate, so she can't always be around. So we were just up in Saint-Sever in the countryside in Canada, and we had all the kids around, and I had to go play the piano for all the carols. And it was actually a great way to get in.

It was good for you.

Yeah, so good.

Because you know those songs.

Yeah, you know the songs. They're simple. They're equal. And you can kind of bang them out. That's all people need is for you to bang out the chorus. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to do an amazing rendition. Pianistically.

No, no.

So I think with the Christmas show, I need to, or not even the Christmas show, just like sitting around playing Christmas.

Carols with the family. It's fun.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the thing. Everybody gathers around.

Yeah, yeah.

So are you like that because you studied classical piano?

Yeah, I studied classical piano.

When did you start?

I started at six or so. I was never great. I didn't practice enough. Though I did go to McGill in piano, but I didn't stay very long.

Wait, where?

McGill in Montreal.

Okay. For college?

For college, yeah.

Okay, sorry.

Conservatory.

Oh, it's like a big conservatory.

Well, it was.

Yeah, it's a good school.

Okay.

I kind of went straight into composition in the sense that I would just start writing music. I started writing music when I was about six or seven.

Really?

Yeah.

As soon as you touched the piano? Yeah, and I would even... gravitate towards the piano at an earlier age yeah just kind of bang on it i was sort of i think i wrote i thought it was my mother or whatever i related.

Yeah well because she was always.

Playing yeah so i just was like always at the piano but it was always writing songs and creating my own thing and not really jamming or like trying to figure out other stuff yeah i did do that at certain points but yeah so i i don't know i just ended up not knowing how to jam so much I will say, though, that it was also due to my voice. I mean, because my singing was so kind of like, they're very, they're like two animals. That when they come together, I mean, and that's a little bit like when I play poses a little bit, it's a bit sort of, that's the phenomenon that I go for.

It's like the piano. They're not, they're kind of playing against each other.

The arrangement. This voice and the piano?

Yeah.

Or the counterpoint.

Yeah, there's a lot of counterpoint between the voice. I'm not supporting... You know, that's kind of where it gets really interesting with what I do.

Yeah.

Because I do play them against each other. So it's a bit of that tension that I was, you know, drawn to create.

It's what's special about you.

I'm drawn to create the tension.

You're drawn to the tension. Is that drama?

No.

Well, it's okay. It's what's special.

Well, what about singing? When you were little, I mean, you just... the family would sing, right?

Yes. Always sang all the time. No, there was always music around.

Always. Always.

It was, it was almost, I'm not going to say abusive, but it was, it was definitely like full on, uh, taking advantage of the child kind of thing.

How so?

Like we would just sing like at parties.

Oh, like go sing, go sing for people.

Yeah, go sing. And especially me.

Yeah.

And it was great.

And you were probably into it.

And it was the seventies and the eighties and I was into it. But, But the boundaries were much less drawn back in that era.

Yeah.

And it was a pretty rowdy crowd. Not a lot of drugs or anything. There was a lot of drinking.

Yeah.

And pot and stuff. It wasn't like this crazy. When I came to L.A. for my first record, I ended up hanging out with a lot of other kids of famous musicians, like Chris Stills.

Mm-hmm.

And they told me stories of growing up in L.A. and that folk scene.

Different scene.

Which was like 10 times more freaky. So it was Canada.

Yeah, you guys were in Montreal.

Yeah, we were in Montreal, which I think was our saving grace in a lot of ways. But there was music all the time.

And so you and Martha, your sister.

Yeah, my mom.

What it was is that my mother, Kate, was essentially... It was a bit of a condition that she had in the sense that she just thought of everything musically.

Yeah.

If she heard a song, she would try to figure it out. If somebody came in, she'd want to see if they could sing. That's how she would communicate with them.

Oh, wow.

If she heard something on the radio that was beautiful, she would always stop the car and listen to the end of the piece. Music was such a powerful force in her life. For good, but also it was a little intense. It also tortured her somewhat. because she was so in touch with whatever the power of that, which can be difficult, I think. And so she was just always doing music. And then my grandmother, her mother, Gabby, I think she had been one of 12 children, grew up in the Depression, had a really tough life, had to work to support her family until she was in her 30s. Like her brothers and sisters couldn't do anything that she wanted to do. So I think she had a lot of untapped ambition and a lot of, you know,

maybe she would have been great on stage, but it just was never an option. So she would then... sort of demand these floor shows. Yeah. Where, of course, she at the end would be the star. She would do her music hall number from 1911. That's amazing. And my mother would learn all the pieces. And Anne, of course, was also very good, and Jane as well.

Yeah, your mother's sister, Anna McGregor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like a kind of perfect storm. And then I was just sitting there lapping it up and willing. Martha hated it.

She did.

Oh, she hated it.

That dynamic is so interesting to me between you two. Because you're older. By how many years?

By three years.

Also, I have a boy who's two and a half years older than a girl.

And he's very, very dominant as well.

And what's fascinating about Martha is that she despised it at the time. Would always be up in her room. We'd have to kind of drag her down. She would come down. But it was always this push and pull. But she was doing her whole other thing.

Okay.

In her room. She was listening. Yeah. She was paying attention.

Well, she's so, so good.

Yeah, I know.

I know.

I mean, she's incredible.

I know. She's her own. And I think she had to define herself from that as well.

Yeah, but I even feel like you also, I mean, the way you sing is so unique to you. I mean, where does that operatic quality come from?

Well, from opera.

Okay.

I figured.

Just making sure.

No, when I was 13, I had a mad sort of operatic conversion.

Yeah.

Because I heard Verdi's Requiem, and by the end of that two-hour performance, slot i was a complete opera queen that's amazing and i was young i was 13 and i that's all i wanted to listen to and hear and it was kind of my salvation on many levels yeah both musically the gay thing aids was decimating.

It was terrifying yeah and.

So like it dealt with death and you know yeah you know that all that thing so it was sort of opera kind of stepped in and wow Did a number on me.

I kind of went through an opera phase at the same age.

Oh, really?

Yeah, my mom got tickets to the Dallas Opera.

Right, right.

I mean, our first one was Puccini.

Oh, yeah.

I was sold.

Yeah, yeah. Which one? Did you remember which one it was?

It was probably Madame Butterfly.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And for a minute, I thought I wanted to be an opera singer.

Yeah, yeah.

And then I was like, no, I'm way too lazy for that.

You know? Did you ever consider actually.

I studied.

Well, I mean, my hilarious study... opera story is that i went as i said i went to mcgill conservatory and and and i was i'd been singing for years and loving opera for a while and and i could i could have been a great opera singer i mean i think that's pretty.

You definitely yeah yeah i.

Know if i with the training and stuff so i i kind of was curious about you know what that would take and at the time i was wearing it was the it was you know the the the 90s and i was had this kind of weird funky outfit with like a Fiorucci jacket and clogs. I was wearing clogs.

I can picture it.

And like ripped up, and like, you know, women's sunglasses, whatever. I just had this look. And I went in and sang for the professor, and he was like, oh, that's very good. You have a very beautiful voice. But I have to say, the clogs have to go. And I was like, you know what? The clocks were staying. And I walked out, and that was why I didn't.

That's incredible.

And that was it.

You know what?

Not for me.

I wish I had that moment recorded on video.

Your loss.

Did you ever hear from that guy again?

No. No.

I heard he was a great singer. He was like one of these Straussian singers. Tenors. He would do King Herod from Salome, which is one of the most insane roles. So he would ask for, like, you know, he would have to cut off John the Baptist's head. Yeah, maybe I made the wrong decision. Definitely not.

Let's do another song. Do you want to... Let's try. I really wanted to go into a town since you're at the piano still.

Yeah, let's do that.

My gosh.

This is another epic one.

Now this one, as I said, the piano arrangement is much simpler. It's less composed.

Okay.

So please play a lot.

I'll play more.

Honestly, I didn't know what.

To do with poses.

Yeah, with poses you gotta.

I was like, I know what to do. And then I was like, I can't do.

Anything with this. It's perfect. Yeah, I know. It has its thing. But this one is meant to be.

Yeah.

To be tossed around I do I like that about this one and I also what year did you write this one.

Well I wrote this I wrote this right after the United States invaded Iraq this.

Is a response that's what I thought.

To that situation so what was that like 90 or 2000 2003.

Something like that yeah something like.

That yeah I remember.

Right after the Iraqi invasion.

So Well, let's play it and then we'll talk about it.

Yeah.

I'm going to a town that has already been burnt down I'm going to a place that has already been destroyed I'm going to see some folks who have already.

Been let down.

I'm so tired of America.

I'm going to.

Make it up for all of the Sunday times. make it up for all of the.

Nursery rhymes.

That never really seem to want to tell the truth I'm so tired.

Of you America.

Alone.

I got a life to live.

A miracle.

I got a life to live.

Tell me.

Tell me you're.

Not overthinking everything that you've done is good I really need to know after soaking the body of Jesus Christ in blood.

That loved you well I'm going to a town that has already been burned down I'm so tired of you I got a life to live I got a soul to feed I got a.

To hear. Let's Oh, town.

Oh, my God.

The opera there.

Does the opera?

Yeah.

Holy crap.

That song is deep.

Sadly, it's become, right now, a perennial. It used to be every four years. Yeah, it's evergreen. But now it's every year, sadly, that that song comes up again as a meaningful comment on what's going on right now.

Isn't that weird? It just goes. No, it's... It goes in cycles. It doesn't end.

Well, it seems like it used to be longer cycles.

Yeah, yeah.

But now, you know, because even after Biden won, and I'm a big Biden fan, and I think he's doing a great job, but it doesn't... Whatever.

I mean.

There's still all the stuff that's falling down.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's crazy.

I had a song kind of similar timing that was about... It was my version of whatever comment, and... I remember being worried at the time that it wouldn't be relevant by the time the album came out. And then it just like always is relevant.

Yeah, I know, I know.

And it was kind of more about the election and all this stuff. But I remember whenever Obama was... was elected, I still sang it because it was around Election Day.

Yeah, yeah.

But.

The meaning of it flipped.

Yeah, yeah.

And it was like the other side related to it.

Yes, yes.

I had the exact same thing. I had the exact same thing.

So even though my intent writing it meant one thing to me, it.

Flipped for whichever side you were on.

Yeah, because when I first.

Wrote it, people would boo. Certain people would boo.

Uh-huh.

And even leave, you know. I had one experience where I was doing it with an orchestra and the first trumpet player got up and walked off.

Oh my gosh.

During the song, you know.

Did he not go to rehearsal?

No, he was at rehearsal. He did it as a protest.

He gotcha.

Yeah, it was like... Anyways, but he was a big Trump person. But yes, but then I had this weird thing where I would play it during Trump years and certain things, and the conservatives would relate to it more.

Y'all just hold hands and talk about it. But I feel like it feels really good to write this kind of song when you're frustrated. It's like, for me, it feels better than trying to. say my feelings on social media or something.

Oh, yeah.

I feel so much better channeling it into whatever I'm doing.

Oh, very much so.

And having it take that over.

Yeah.

And I will say, you know, there's another song of mine which I wrote more in the Trump era, which I, it's called The Sword of Damocles. And you should check it out. It was, it was, it was, it was produced by, Thomas Bartlett produced it.

Oh, yeah.

I did it at his studio and, and it was written more about the Trump stuff. But, It's a great, well, first of all, it was mixed by Tom Elmhurst. Oh, yeah. Who's such an amazing mixer. I love him. And it's a really special track.

Sort of Damocles?

Sort of Damocles.

Okay.

And it's around, there's something also about writing around those times and trying to do something, you know, to counter it artistically, musically. And it actually, I don't know, I think it does rub off on the recording even.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a rawness.

Yeah, and there's a kind of spirit to it.

Yeah.

That you should take advantage of.

When you've written these songs that are more, you know, commenting, political, do you find that you go in trying to do that or they just inspire, they just like inform what you're doing as you're going along?

I think it gets pretty bad and it just has to happen.

It just comes out.

Yeah, yeah.

You're not going in and being like, I'm going to write a protest song.

No, no, no. It gets pretty bad.

Yeah, that's the thing.

It gets really bad. And the first time was with this song when, when when when we invaded Iraq and then the second time was sort of Damocles when the Trump years were.

Just yeah unbelievable yeah that people always ask me about like how do you write a I'm like I don't think you go out to.

Do it yeah you don't but I I have been you know I have this folk record coming out yeah Folkocracy and I'm singing a Peggy Seeger song ah on there and it's not a political song but I'm I'm a big fan of hers and of Pete Seeger and the whole Seeger thing But she's still with us and still performs and she's amazing. But I'm really going back into her catalog and the work that they did that was part of my mother's world and my dad's world in the 70s and 60s and stuff. And they would have at least a good 50% or even more were political songs. Like you did that.

That's what you were there for.

You were there to make the world a better place. You were there to sing for the For the underprivileged and the oppressed.

Yeah.

And I think that's missing a little bit now.

People are scared.

Yeah, yeah.

Or.

They're not inspired for some reason.

Yeah, yeah, no.

Or they put that energy into, like, a social media post instead of a song, maybe.

Yeah, no, I know, I know.

Which, yeah, I prefer the other.

Personally, like, I know how you feel by hearing this song, and I'm deeply moved.

I will say, though, that I think that I have hope that the pendulum will swing.

I think it will.

I think actually considering... What I mentioned before was Biden won the presidency, Democrats kept the Senate, but it's still a shit show and horrible things are happening.

It is.

And it's really up to the people to get out there and do their thing.

It is, but the political game is so hard to get in there.

And change it. Yeah, but I think it's all hands on deck.

At the moment.

Yeah, it has to be. So there should be a resurgence of political songwriting.

Do you play this song at every show?

I play it at a lot of shows.

Yeah.

It's actually, it's on the Folkocracy record.

Oh, you put this on the Folkocracy?

Yeah, it's the one song.

That's great. It's the one song of mine that I.

I'm so glad.

That I put on as a folk song.

Did you have a person duetting on it?

Yeah, I have a, I sing with Anoni.

Amazing.

Yeah, Anoni and I do it.

Love.

Yeah.

You did duets on this whole album, pretty much.

Except for maybe one. No, it's not only duets. It's a range of offerings, but it's duet heavy.

Yeah, it's great. I love the John Legend song. I didn't know that song.

That's beautiful. That's the Peggy Seeger song.

That's the Peggy Seeger song.

Okay.

Yeah.

So there's that one. And then, of course, there's also amazing singing, Cotton Eye Joe with Chaka Khan.

That's incredible.

And also David Byrne. We're doing like a Moondog song. Do you know Moondog? Yeah, check out Moondog.

Okay.

It's amazing.

That's incredible. And you did Down in the Willow Garden.

Down in the Willow Garden.

With Brandi Carlile.

Yes, yes.

She's perfect for that.

Yeah, yeah.

No, she is.

She's an incredible singer.

Yeah, and I'd love to sing it with you.

I would love to. You know, I actually recorded.

This song with Billy Joe Armstrong.

Wow.

We did this Everly Brothers record.

Right, right, right.

And actually, it was incredible. It was so fun.

Well, in my opinion, the Everly Brothers are kind of like, if you were going to think of the American... stars as actual stars yeah yeah like in the firmament uh-huh they're like these two they're like the twins or something you know like this these two kind of cast or castor and pollux or whatever they're like this.

Like the seven sisters yeah yeah.

They're yeah they're um a group of stars yeah stars to kind.

Of you're right yeah it's beautiful they're incredible And they have that sibling thing, which you and Martha have.

Yes, yes, yes.

And which, you know, you also had with your mom, the familial singing together thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's another kind of vibration.

It really is.

Genetic.

It's so funny because you do all have your own distinct voices, but when you sing together, it's just magical.

I still want to know what that word is for a group of stars.

Oh, I don't know what it is.

Oh, God.

What?

Constellation.

Oh, a constellation.

A two-person constellation. Gotcha. I know what you're saying.

All right.

I'm going to try to play guitar on this just to break it up a little.

That would be great. What key do you do it in?

I'll do it in the key you did it on the record.

Okay.

Which is something capoed.

I might need some lyrics a little bit.

Just to glance at.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think Sarah can print them.

Okay. Great.

This is so much fun.

This is so fun.

Usually I feel like I play more, but you sound so great.

There's nothing for me to.

Do when you're playing and singing. Well, I want to get you the real pianist.

No way.

On this instrument.

Well, it'll be fun. We'll switch it up.

Singing into this mic.

Are these lyrics right?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

All right, I'm going to play a guitar for us.

Here we go.

Down in the willow garden Where me and my love did meet As we sat called him my love fell off to.

Sleep I had.

A bottle of bendy wine my love she did not know so I poisoned That dear little girl On the banks below I drew a saber.

Through her It was a bloody night I threw her in the river, which was a dreadful sight. My father often tried me That money would set me free If I would murder that.

Dear little girl Whose name was Rose Connelly My father sits at his cabin door Wiping his tear-dimmed eyes.

For his only son soon shall walk to yonder scaffold high.

The sun, the scaffold now waits for me.

For I did murder that.

Dear little girl Whose name was Rose.

Caudalie It's funny, though. Always these simple ones are the most challenging.

Yeah.

Because it's so... And I also always keep thinking about the Cavalier Brothers.

Yeah.

And how did they... How did they.

And we're trying to not be them, but.

Yeah, but you want to be them. But yeah, that was fun.

They're just so smooth.

Yeah, yeah.

And they have this kind of strange thing of singing out, but not singing out at the same time.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was a funny balance.

Yeah.

It was like control. Did you ever meet any of them?

No, I didn't.

Yeah, no, my mom did.

Did she?

Well, she met, she had this amazing night once where they were on tour. I guess they were probably doing some sort of festival. And they ended up hanging out at a bar with the two of them. Oh, man. And they played music all night.

How fun.

And it was one of the great, it was something that my mother, there's a few experiences in her life. that happened. That was one of them where it's like, okay, you know, I've done it.

Yeah, but she probably grew up on them.

Yeah, she grew up on them and they were her idols and, but she, but what was funny is that she, they had this song called Complaint pour Saint-Catherine which is a French song that was kind of a hit in parts of Europe and in Canada and stuff and it's a really brilliant song anyways, but, and I guess they were trading off songs and, and they sang that song and, And they went completely crazy for this French song. And they made my mother and my aunt sing it like three times.

Really?

They're like, sing that song, St.

Catherine.

I love that song. And it was this French-Canadian folk thing that they had written. They didn't understand a word of it. Yeah. But they just thought it was so amazing.

And they had the sisters and the brothers thing together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was a night that, I mean, I wasn't there, but I just imagined the carousel from the Everleys.

Pretty special.

The bar all night.

I can imagine that, too. I'm going to just put this down. You were happy with that?

Yes, yes.

Great.

It was beautiful.

Beautiful. A little, you know, disturbing.

Yeah, slightly depressing material. Do we have an upper?

One, two, three.

Yeah, I mean, this is an old traditional, right? Yeah, yeah.

It's a murder ballad.

Who wrote it? Yeah, no, I don't think it's one of those. Yeah, I think it's one of those.

Yeah, well, I want to hear you with the piano.

Yeah, I want to play for you. Okay, yeah. We have a couple we could try. Okay, I'll trade you places.

Okay, yeah, because I have to say, you know, your piano playing, I've always been jealous of your.

No!

All right, say it on the mic now.

I want to ask you about the Judy Garland stuff.

Yes, yeah.

We can get into that.

Let's get in.

So you, you did.

Judy Garland, live at Carnegie Hall.

Yes.

You did the.

Entire show at Carnegie Hall.

Yeah, yeah.

So you grew up on that record?

Well, you know, what's bizarre, this is what's, okay, this is what happened. Okay, I was born.

You were born.

Well, actually, it starts before that. Okay. My dad was born. And he, for a period, lived in Hollywood, right? Because my grandfather was a writer for Life magazine.

Okay.

So, do you want to hear the whole story here?

I kind of do.

I'm interested. And my grandfather, Loudon Wainwright, the junior, the second, was a fairly well-known columnist for Life magazine. He had a thing called The View From Here, which was one of the only columns, regular columns, in Life magazine. Life magazine was usually photographs. But he would have this sort of column about his life and the way the world was around him and stuff. And people really, and he was a very well-known figure in journalism. And he also, he worked with Joan Didion. He also was, he was in, you know, he went to China with Reagan and stuff. Like, he did, he was a great writer. And for a while, I guess he was covering Hollywood in the 50s. And they lived in Beverly Hills. And they lived very close

to Judy Garland. And I guess somehow they befriended each other, my grandfather and Judy, or they met each other. And my dad, I don't think he did it a lot, but yeah, he would hang out with Liza Minnelli when they were 10, around 10 years old. That's so wild. And Lorna, I think, was there, and also my Aunt Teddy.

And so they would all hang out at Judy's house. And there's some hilarious... memory that my aunt has where you know i think judy garland was babysitting them and all she remembers was they were kind of like they were kind of sitting on the shag carpet and judy garland was on a couch with a broken leg and a scotch you know we just sort of like i'm sure there was help you know i'm yeah.

Yeah she probably wasn't alone yeah.

Yeah yeah i don't think she was yeah but it was sort of like she just remembers that vision Wow. But Liza and Loudon were, yeah, they were the same age.

Liza and your dad.

Yeah, Liza and my dad were the same age. And she ended up being the first girl that he was ever in love with. Oh, my God. His first love was Liza Minnelli. He really fell head over heels in love. Then they had to leave L.A. They were sent back to New York. And my dad wrote his very first love letter to Liza Minnelli. and he must have been 11 or 12 or something.

Dear Liza.

And the opening line is great. It was, Dear Liza, what do you think of this guy Elvis? Which is kind of a great... It's a great story.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she never replied.

Never?

And it totally broke his heart. And.

He's 11 when he writes this.

Yeah, yeah. So she never replied. And then years later there was a thing where, you know, he wrote this little song about her and She was, you know, doing really well with Cabaret. And somebody in an interview said, oh, do you know Loudon Wainwright? Because he had written this little ditty about her. And she said, quite bitchily, she was like, oh, yeah, no, that's Loudy. I remember Loudy.

And then she said, oh, and judging by that song, you know, I have a good voice coach for him. If he needs one. In an interview? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Burn.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, she totally, like, cut him. Which is ironic. My dad sings... incredibly well still yeah the same can't be said just watch out what you say oh.

Damn yeah yeah this is a letter to life.

Yeah yeah yeah watch out what you say on the way up you know that's crazy whatever not but i look and i and i and i well actually it gets deeper because really that so that had happened but she i don't know if there's any bad blood or anything but then years later i met liza and she knew who loudon was and she was like oh rufus you know and And we kind of hung out for about five seconds, not a lot. But at that point I was discovering, what happened is that I'd always loved Judy Garland. I'd always had, mostly with the Wizard of Oz and her movies. And I didn't know the Carnegie Hall record. I'd heard of it, but I'd never listened to it. And I have a strange feeling that I was waiting. Like something was not.

What other things had to happen. Yeah. But I always knew it was there. That's interesting. And the Judy Garland obsession was really pretty profound in the sense that as a child there was the whole Dorothy thing, which was very powerful, and Andy Hardy and all of that. And then when I moved to L.A. and I was partying a lot and hanging out in very decadent areas, I then related a lot to her you know more louche side yeah the recordings of her later in life you know where she's hilarious but it's also pretty horrifying as well so i got into that end of her and then you know so so i sort of i was a full blown and i really was this it was the situation where i would go to a record i remember i would go to tower records which used to

be on you know sunset and right around here and um with every intention of buying the latest Radiohead album, and I would leave with five Judy Garland. It was like, what happened? How did that blackout? So it kind of went on and on and on. And at a certain point, actually, I realized that I kind of had to almost exorcise her from me, like have an exorcism of sorts, because she was sort of haunting me a lot. And then I met Liza... It was around the time when I first got sober. And that was, you know, I won't get too much into that. But I had suddenly, and I'd said like, oh, and Liza knew, you know, Loudon, and it was sort of this, it was kind of chummy for five seconds. And then I realized that I

wanted to do, then I was like, now's the time to listen to the Judy Garland record. And so I listened to it. And it was right after, I'd quit drinking. And also, America had invaded Iraq. It was around that time.

It was an emotional time.

It was just an intense time. And that record kind of instilled, or it didn't instill, but it became a thread of my love for America. Like, through all the crap. I was like, whenever I put that record on, I was reminded... that the U.S. can be great.

You're making me emotional.

You know, just like with the songwriting and the glory of her and just a better time and that maybe a better time will come again and all that. So I kind of held on to that record.

Wow.

That's crazy. That's a crazy story.

For Dear Life. And then, so I said, well, you know, I want to do it again. I'd like to sing it. And of course, then I told Liza and she was.

She thought it was not a good idea.

Oh, she was like, why would you ever want to do that? Like she took it as an affront.

Oh, wow.

And never talked to me again.

Oh, my gosh.

And very much even tried at one point to not make me, you know, to like stop it. I have a sense it might have been something she wanted to do. I don't know. I don't know. You don't know. But it hit this nerve with her where she just, I was like out of her life.

Wow.

And I'd see her at parties and she would like walk by me as if I didn't exist. And it was very, it was very interesting because I think I just, look, I get it. I think anything close with her mother and her is like.

Something different.

Something, something that you just don't trespass. And I did. And, but, but, but, um. So anyway, so we did the show, and Lorna was in the show, her half-sister.

She supported it.

I mean, the show was a great tribute.

To that album and to Judy. Yeah, it was a great tribute. I think, if anything, I made it my own.

You know?

Yeah. You know, I kind of.

I mean, it was an event.

Yes, it was a huge event.

And the original show was an event because it was her.

It was like her comeback show, correct?

Yeah, it was like her resurrection.

It was.

And it was the most... I grew up listening to that record. My mom had it on vinyl.

Yeah, yeah.

And I used to listen to it. And I used to get so emotional at the encore when they.

keep yelling for her.

And you can just tell how emotional I'm getting like emotional thinking.

About this I used to cry and it was just.

Like a joyful moment but it was like so emotional for me when they would call her back and back and she's like well we'll just sing them all and you could tell how emotional.

It was for her it's.

Crazy because I grew up listening to it and so when you did that my mom who was living in.

The city at the time she bought tickets and she made an event out of it. So we came, and I don't know if I knew you then, but I.

Could have easily gotten backstage passes at that time.

What year was this?

Yeah, that was like 2006 or something.

Yeah, but my mom got like nosebleed seats at Carnegie Hall, and we just went as fans, and we watched it, and it made her life.

Oh, that's amazing.

Yeah, she was so happy.

It made her so happy. I think a lot of, I think people understood, look, I got through the show. There's some amazing moments that I did. It's not Judy Garland. It's not that. But there was this sort of sense that everybody wanted to celebrate. Everybody needed to get together.

It was that time as well.

Yeah. And I tapped into that zeitgeist. And it's interesting because my grandparents went to the original show.

Really?

Yeah, okay.

They were guests of Judy's, you know.

Of course.

The original one. And the Liza thing, you know, it kind of saddens me because whatever.

Whatever.

It doesn't really matter. But it is– that was the only kind of strange part of it. But other than that, other than that, yeah, no, it was great fun. And on a more technical level, there's really Rufus– Before Liza. Before Liza. She's haunting me now.

She's haunting you.

She's here.

She's here with us. I have a special guest.

She's waiting in the wings.

I wish.

That would be amazing. No, there's pre-Judy and post-Judy Rufus.

Yeah.

It changed you.

Yeah, it changed me very much. And I just mean as a singer, you know, because I knew for one thing that, you know, I think before I did that show, I was fairly, well, I was drinking a lot. So I was just very kind of happy-go-lucky. I just sort of went with the flow, and every night was this kind of tornado. And there were certain evenings where I, but I didn't think about my breathing. I didn't think about pronouncing things. I just was very loose, which there's brilliant moments when I was young and that was happening.

But there's also a lot that I look back and I'm like, oh God, it's kind of embarrassing. But then once I did the Judy show, I was like, people have to understand the lyrics.

I have to breathe.

I have to economize my energy. I have to create this kind of tremendous arc, both in each song and also in the concert itself. And yeah, I had to have a certain amount of discipline. And that was very... Whatever, I think I became a much better singer afterwards.

It affected you in that way?

Yeah.

Wow.

Which I think, for me, in a strange way, that's probably why I did it.

Well, it was like a master class.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

thrown into the fire yeah yeah.

So and it's funny because it's also like even to this day there are certain you know hardcore judy fans who are like why did it it's terrible i can't believe he did that like they're just not into it but they don't understand those songs belong to everybody and it's really about the songs i mean the songs also as a songwriter i wanted to get into that you know those are all i mean they're yes it's judy's show but it's not you know the songs were are eternal and they belong to everybody.

I hate, well, I don't hate. I actually kind of love when people get like that. It's like, you know what? You don't have to listen to this. Why does it make you so mad? It's insane.

But anyway, so yeah, but I don't know what we're going to do. Let's try, um, how long has this been going on?

Yeah.

It's my favorite song from that album.

And, um, Do you want to switch off some verses?

Yeah, I do.

I think that would be nice.

But I also, I feel like your version switches the verses a little differently than hers, so I just want to make sure I have the correct lyrics.

Yeah, give me whichever you want. We can map it out a tiny bit. I have to say, and before we start this, I read the greatest musical, poetic quote about singing recently, which you ever heard of? No. He's this poet from Portugal from like the 30s or whatever. But he, I was reading this poem and the poem said, the first line was, Sing like you're listening.

That is so good. But it's also so true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been thinking about that line a lot. Sing like you're listening.

It's hard to remember when you're young, right? And you're only listening to your voice. I had a teacher in college that said, don't fall in love with the sound of your own voice too much. And I always was like, what do you mean?

Oh, I get it now.

It was good advice.

Okay.

Ready?

Okay.

I could cry a soul.

To tears.

Where have I been all these years?

Listen you, tell me do. How long has this been going on?

There were chills down my spine. spine And some thrills I can't define Little wow, tell me now How long has this been going on?

In your arms I creep.

That divine rendezvous Don't wake me if I'm asleep Let me dream that it's true.

Kiss me once Then once.

More What a dance.

I was before What a break for heaven's sake How long has this been going.

On Oh, I wish that I could melt into heaven.

Hell Now I.

Know how Columbus.

Felt Finding another world Kiss me once then once.

More What it done so How long has this been going on?

How long has this been going on?

Thank you.

There's something in there.

We stuck the ending.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We got it.

Yeah, yeah. And that piano break was gorgeous.

Oh, good.

Yeah, it was really beautiful.

Oh, honey.

Oh, that was great.

That was great.

Thank you.

Thank you for doing this.

Thank you for having me.

It was so fun to see you. Oh, that was so fun.

Thank you so much for listening.

What an amazing performer. He's He's really a masterful storyteller through his music. It gives me like goosebumps every song.

I know.

Also, I don't feel like he sings. He's never phoning it in when he sings. It's always like right there.

And I love hearing all the stories from when he was growing up and like in that house full of so much talent. He really painted that picture so well.

Yeah, he told some juicy stories there.

He's got some tour dates coming up, so check out if he's performing live near you. Follow him to stay up to date with all his various projects.

If you want to know what we played in this episode, we played Poses, which is the title track from Rufus's 2001 album. We played Going to a Town from his album Release the Stars in 2007. We played Down in the Willow Garden, which is a traditional Appalachian murder ballad.

Murder ballad.

Originating in the 19th century, probably from Ireland. And it's been recorded by dozens of people, including a beautiful version by the Everly Brothers. It's also featured on his latest album, Folkocracy. We also did the classic Gershwin standard, How Long Has This Been Going On, which was famously recorded by Judy Garland.

Today's episode was recorded at Nightbird Recording Studios in Los Angeles, California. Recorded by Colton Lakey. Assisted by Luis Sanchez Navarro. Mixed by Jamie Landry. Edited by Pregnant Sarah Oda. Additional editing and mixing by Matthew Vasquez. Additional engineering by Matt Marinelli. Artwork by Eliza Fry. Photography by Shervin Lenez. Coordinating producer, Rachel Ward. Produced by me and Sarah Oda. Additional recording by Matt Marinelli. Executive producers, Aaron Wong-Kaufman and Jordan Runtag.

Marketing lead, Alison Cantor Graber.

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