The Business of Bond – Inside Omega’s 30-Year 007 Partnership – Episode 97

0:01 Dive watch marketing is still a sea of sameness, and that is part of the success of the Seamaster. It's not just that it's a watch that goes head-to-head with the Submariner on specs, but in terms of the product and the, and the marketing around it, it's entirely differentiated. And this is a lesson that I wish Omega and others would take more. This is Openworked, a look inside the watch industry, a podcast from Collective Horology. I'm Gabe Riley, co-founder of Collective, and I'm Ash Arapkin, co-founder of Collective. Collective Horology is an independent watch retailer based in Ventura, California. We carry a wide range of independent brands including Czapek, Ming, Holfenrichs, and more.

0:44 To learn more about us and check out the watches that we carry, visit collectivehorology.com. Hey, later this week we will be in New York City. New York City! You told me no plugs this week. I'm gonna plug this one. Hey Gabe, you have a 917 number? I I do. I have a 917 number. Great. No one cares. No one cares. Actually, someone once offered to buy the number from me. Well, it's a good number. You have a good number.

1:06 Yeah. Anyway, I actually called someone this week. I had to give them my phone number and the guy goes, whoa, that's a good number, but I'll be withholding my— it's not that good. All right. Well, hey, he was impressed. Perfect stranger. So we will be at Watch Time as I'm sure everyone listening to this knows, but hey, look, come by and say hi. You'll be able to find me Gabe, the rest of the crew from, from Collective, Ellie, Jeff, Blake will be around the show.

1:33 Come on by, say hi, check out the wares from Horologer Ming and of course all the other brands that we represent and even the brands that we don't that will have awesome stuff at that show, at Windup, at all the ancillary shows. And of course, we'll be producing a bunch of content coming out of those shows for those who cannot be there. Right, Gabe? I got to figure that out. Yes.

1:54 Yes. But you know, by the time you're listening to this, we may be in the thick of watch time or it may have already come and gone. So what do you say? Let's get into it. Let's boogie. This was when you, so when you present show ideas to me, sometimes I will say to you like, yeah, I don't know. But when you presented this one, oh yeah, it was like hard yes. This is an awesome idea.

2:16 The business of Bond. So The, you know, it's interesting, and I think it will tie into what we're going to talk about today in the business of Omega's relationship with James Bond and that, and that franchise. But, you know, I think it was just last week or maybe even earlier this week, whatever, recently Omega released 2 new Bond watches, a Bond watch and a Spectre watch, which was kind of interesting, not tied to a film. We'll talk about how that fits into the overall strategy. And, you know, it got me thinking, like, this is a really interesting kind of case study. So look, a lot of ink has been spilled on the watch watches of James Bond going all the way back to Dr. No, or even going back to the books.

2:56 Ian Fleming, for instance, was apparently a Rolex guy. He ended up wearing a 1016, although the 1016 and the Explorer, obviously that's more contemporaneous to the, the films themselves. But he was a Rolex guy. Rolex was in the movie. Seiko, Hamilton, TAG Heuer made an appearance during the Timothy Dalton era.

3:17 But look, we're not here to really talk about the watches so much, although we love the watches. And I don't know about you, but the Bond Seamaster is really what got me into watches. Oh, yeah. No, me too. That was the very first, quote unquote, nice watch I ever bought for myself. Yeah. And I'm wearing the original, or at least the automatic version of the Bond Seamaster, a neo-vintage watch. You've got on the 60th anniversary— I guess it's 60th anniversary of James Bond.

3:41 Very cool, modern kind of version of that same watch. I also own the same reference you're wearing. You do, in amazing, amazing condition. So we love these watches. You know, sometimes when— and I don't think actually we're going to say that much critical about Omega today, but sometimes when we say things that are critical of brands and critical of the business of watches or the business strategy of watches, people seem to think that we're, we're, we're dunking on a watch that they like or a watch itself. And that's never the case. You know, we can separate out intellectually, like, watches we really love from, you know, brands that are making some mistakes maybe with their business strategy and things

4:18 like that. That's not the case here. Like, we love these watches, and this is a really compelling, interesting, and well-done business partnership between Omega and Bond. I want to cut another thought off at the knees too, which is that, you know, that they're getting blood from a stone with this franchise, which the numbers would suggest is very much not true.

4:39 What— but as we go era by era here, there's some really fascinating, and in some cases utterly brilliant, business choices that were made, and in some cases ones that I find kind of questionable but still turned out to be very successful. So let's go era by era and But this story really begins around the mid-'90s for Omega and James Bond. And it starts, it starts with Omega not in a great place relative to where certainly we think of it today in the modern era.

5:05 Both of these franchises start in a similar position here at the starting line. Both are essentially trying to reboot themselves. Yeah, quite literally. And so I thought of it that way. Yeah, that's a good point. The timing aligns. So your point about Omega is a good one. Right. And so tell us where Omega is. Take us back. And of course, there is a Pre-Bond Seamaster that sometimes people forget about, which is a nice— oh, there were a lot of pre-Bond Seamasters. I mean, look, well, it was released in like the late '80s, and it was an update to the Seamaster collection then, but it was a very also-ran kind of safe dive watch, which is not the case when we get to 1993. Well, I think it's also important just to think about what the Seamaster was at its height

5:45 pre-quartz crisis and after the quartz crisis. So the Seamaster— anyone who's ever spent any time Googling Seamaster has undoubtedly come across some of the dressier Seamasters. That were pervasive in the 1960s. I mean, my grandfather wore, wore one. He had several. He was a college professor. It wasn't, you know, like it was just a nice watch. My dad picked up a dressy Seamaster when he was in the Navy in the 1950s.

6:11 He still wears it to this day. It still runs. Oh, really? Yeah. I didn't know that. That's cool. I got to see that next time we're in the city. So, you know, you had, you had this product line that was pervasive, that had lots of different variants, different metals, different sizes, etc. Quartz crisis does what it does to the Swiss industry.

6:28 And Omega as a brand comes out basically limping from the quartz crisis like so many other brands, trying to figure out who they are, how they're going to make a name for themselves, what their space is in the luxury watch world as redefined post-quartz crisis, when really what they were like Rolex and so many other brands pre-quartz crisis, they were just a really good watch. And they're, of course, rolled into the Swatch Group. We talked, I think, on an episode about some of the most important watches in terms of the business of watches. We talked about the Hi-X and the formation of what became the Swatch Group. And of course Omega was essentially kind of like a distressed asset that was rolled together

7:04 with another, another struggling watch group to form the basis of the Swatch Group. And so here we enter the, the '90s and it's sitting in this portfolio of brands, you know, and, and while you're right, they're sort of a well-made watch, they don't really occupy the position they do now and have since then, which is sort of the number one— positioned as the number one challenger to Rolex. The Hi-X and Swatch Group in general are really trying to figure out how they position all these brands and who they're going to put up against Rolex. And that's what leads to really the Seamaster itself, which is a very differentiated product. So the Seamaster Professional, the 300-meter dive watch, the Bond

7:48 watch comes out 2 years before GoldenEye does in 1995. So the product predates it. And it's sort of this more contemporary approach to a watch that's sort of self-aware. It's like a postmodern watch. That it's not trying to so much reference those watches you mentioned from the 1950s and on. It's trying to carve out its own identity and it, you know, creates this new category of like the dressy tool watch. Yeah. So I think it's also important for us to look at who was behind the scenes there because, you know, there's a lot of glazing in this industry of Jean-Claude Biver and it's for good reason. Oh yeah. Because when you, when you think about— I mean, this is the heyday of JCB, being an executive and

8:33 brand building. And one of the things that he saw, which, you know, we're going to talk about now and you're probably like, oh yeah, we see that all the time. But it wasn't what the watch business was doing. He had a, he had a clear strategy about how to inject Omega into modern culture. And we saw a lot of that happening in the '90s. We're not going to talk about this here, but it wasn't an official, quote unquote, integration, I don't believe. But it was iconic, which was the integration of the Speedmaster into Apollo 13. I cannot tell you how many Speedmasters are dead center of the screen in that movie.

9:05 And that was same era, mid-'90s, JCB all the way. Here we had Jean-Claude Biver identifying a couple of incredible integrations, right? There was the NASA stuff that we just talked about. There's Cindy Crawford and the Constellation, right? Yeah. And then of course, there was James Bond and the Seamaster. Now, I want to back up for one second because I do want to give some credit to the Hayeks, who are usually pretty critical of— and Nick Hayek Sr.

9:28 in particular, he sets the stage for Biver. Well, I think we're more critical of the modern generation of the Hayeks than of him. So he basically identifies like, okay, Omega is in our stable here. Omega is going to be the brand to go like up against Rolex. You know, it has the— which by the way, at that time, I think was a, a much more legitimate claim than today based on how those brands are positioned.

9:49 Yeah. But you know, at that point they've got this, this assemblage of brands that they've acquired or have been, you know, at the behest of the Swiss government mushed together in one big company to save— amalgamated watch— amalgamated watch to save them. And he's like, you know, of all these brands, they've got some real treasures in there. Like, it's gonna be Omega that does it, and they're gonna go— they're gonna be the brand we position against Rolex. And I'm gonna tap Jean-Claude Biver on the shoulder to run it, you know, the guy from Blancpain. Because I believe the— that the Swatch Group acquired— well, later, that was— yeah, because the Swatch Group had acquired Blancpain, right? And basically JCB was like an acquihire.

10:29 And so he's like, this is the— and this is gonna be the guy. To do it. And I think what is so important about Jean-Claude Biver is he is not from central casting. No. You know, when you close your eyes and you imagine Swiss luxury watch executive, you generally imagine someone who's very pulled together, very slick. I think like Benny Hamas.

10:52 Yeah. And, and very risk averse, you know, like— Okay, so that wouldn't be Benny Hamas? It's a— Yeah, yeah, probably not. But like, you know, very risk averse. These brands don't take big swings. And I think it was a stroke of genius to, to do a few things. One was to put Jean-Claude Biver in the seat at Omega, because I think Hayek recognized, I can't compete against Rolex by just trying to be an also-ran.

11:17 I need to do something different. So they hire an executive who's willing to take risks and take big swings. And even before Bond and Cindy Crawford and all this other stuff, you see in the Seamaster 300 Professional you see a brand that is taking a differentiated approach to Rolex. They scrapped— Well, you just put your finger on what it is. JCB came in and built a brand. Yes, he didn't necessarily— he didn't build a manufacturer. They didn't continue with the pre-Bond Seamaster, which was a very toolish dive watch that was kind of an also-ran product.

11:49 Now, did have Omega DNA in it. Yeah, of course. But the, the what we call now the Bond Seamaster, which predates Bond, is a very, very differentiated watch compared to Rolex for all the product reasons We know. And that's what leads to it being cast in the film. Yeah. So I think it's easy to be cynical about this and will be quite cynical about this relationship and the product placement and the sponsorship and things like that to come. But I always assumed, like, as Jean-Claude Biver did with these other things, he sort of shoehorned Omega into the franchise.

12:24 The, the truth is the opposite. So the costume designer, the person in charge of wardrobe for the watch, a woman named Lindy Hemming. Yeah, Lindy Hemming. 90s. Yeah, she had the idea to have Pierce Brosnan wear an Omega for a couple of reasons. One, Omega had a history with the British Royal Navy, too, and she had, I guess, relatives, male, older male relatives in her life who wore and acquired Omegas during their service in the Royal Navy. But more than anything, and she was quoted, I believe it was in the New York Times, she talked about part of the reason she chose Omega was because, again, remember, this is a reboot of the James Bond franchise itself, right? Out with the old, in with the new.

13:06 It had been '95 to '87, it'd been like, you know, 8 years or so since they had done a Bond movie. And GoldenEye was like a complete new modern interpretation. I mean, GoldenEye introduces the modern era of Bond. Yes, in the same way like casting Daniel Craig was a reboot, this was definitely a reboot, taking the franchise in a different, in a different direction. And so The choice of Omega here, she said herself, was because she didn't think Rolex was appropriate. She viewed Rolex as too, quote, flash and for city boys. And keep it— keep in mind, we're coming out of the '80s where Rolex, it becomes a very flashy brand associated with Wall Street and yuppie culture and all that sort of thing. So in that time and in that cultural

13:53 context, and that's what makes the most sense to me, she didn't feel that a Rolex was, was any longer the right choice. So she reached out, and, and so this the details here are fuzzy, but she reaches out to Omega to ask for watches for product placement, and they send them to her. There are some people who say Omega had no idea the watches were going to be in the movie, but apparently they didn't pay for it. They provided wardrobe watches.

14:14 And by the way, this is what other brands had done in the past. If you see the credits of, of other films, you'll see like they thank Seiko Watches for like providing watches, but there wasn't like a, you know, sponsorship the way we think about it. So that's what they did. The masterstroke here of Jean-Claude Biver— and you're right to point out all these other marketing programs he set up was to say, well, the product placement is great, but I want to take this to the next level. I want to really exploit this product placement and I want to turn this into an integrated sponsorship.

14:47 And keep in mind, again, this is very risky. Think about how much most dive watches are marketed and sold. It's about, you know, people diving underwater with them and using them as tools and showing the, you know, the bona fides of these things as dive watches and tools. And that's how the whole industry still markets dive watches. And here's a guy who's like, no, I'm going to put this thing into popular culture. I'm going to sell a tool watch on the basis of pop culture, not its diving credentials, which again, in a very risk-averse industry that's very conservative in its marketing integrations, is a very wild approach and a very risky approach. But he goes for it. And this is again, differentiated from Rolex. Rolex would never do this. Rolex would

15:36 never— we could debate whether they'd go for product placement. Clearly there was some Rolex product placement, or at least they didn't object to their watches being used in past Bond films, but they would never go for the full 360 integrated marketing campaign around it and really positioning— not the way it happened with Omega. And it's pretty remarkable because this is part of another ingredient here that sets up the Seamaster differently. Not only is this a dressy tool watch and a departure from the typical, you know, dive watch of its era and certainly differentiated from the Submariner.

16:09 But the entire way that they're now marketing the watch and have marketed it since, it's not about commercial diving and Navy SEALs and things like that. It's about a fictional British spy, you know, in this world of luxury and mystery he inhabits. I think, I think in the same way that people buy, you know, subconsciously or otherwise, IWCs because like it, you know, that fighter pilot kit you know, is just like, it's fun, it's exciting, right? Is the same thing that's associated with James Bond. Because James Bond, I think, speaks to so many cultural elements that, like, you can— I think as a person, you can, you can find something in James Bond, whether it's his attitude, you know, you know, like his, his heroic nature, his athleticism,

16:54 like whatever. As a character, he's such a larger-than-life superhero that I think people can associate with that in one way or another and find something in that character that resonates with them. Name another tool watch that's marketed in that way. The playbook for marketing a tool watch is show how rugged and serious and what a professional tool it is. Instead, what Omega ends up doing is positioning their whole dive watch around— I get it, but the reason I'm saying pop culture, right?

17:21 But the reason that that works is because he's such a complex character that can speak to you. Yeah, he does wear it complex, but like, you're right, he wears it diving or jumping out of an airplane or wearing a tuxedo or fighting a dude, right? And, you know, and And, and it's sort of like the one through line. Like, Bond always seems to have another suit, another car, another plane, but he only has one watch. Yeah, but let's admit, this is a very differentiated approach to— and risky if you're, if you're a Swiss watch brand— to marketing a dive watch. Oh God, yeah, because it has not— because like, it takes some gumption to do this. It does, but it also introduces a new way of talking about a product, which is how it makes you feel,

18:01 not what it is that it does. Yeah, because if you think about it, to your point, even if you look at advertising of Swiss watches prior to this, a lot of it is about one of two things, either what the watch physically is capable of doing, right? It's like the Milgauss. You can wear it in a high magnetic environment, right? Or it specifies one attribute, like some of the more misogynistic ads from, say, IWC, you know, but it doesn't— it's not painting like a larger picture of something that just is fun or adventurous. And of course, like, they weren't the only brand to jump on this.

18:34 BMW did, of course, at the same time with the Z3 later in the Pierce Brosnan franchise after I I think some of the brand rub became clear. But I think let's, let's just take a look at this because when, when we think about the product, right, first you start with essentially what is the base model, right? So this is phase 1, right?

18:53 It's in the movie and this is the phase 1 where basically they're using the, they're using the, the films and the partnership to sell a Hero watch. And the Hero watch, if I'm not mistaken, was the quartz piece first, correct? Or was it the automatic first? It's the Seamaster 300 product line with a blue dial.

19:10 So initially, yes, in GoldenEye it's quartz watch. However, important to know, it's not that the quartz watch existed before the automatic watch. When Omega launched the line in 1993, it launched with a quartz version, an automatic version, and other complications like a chronograph, which of course makes sense given the timing and like the product diversity needed to find its market fit and all of that. But by the way, I just find— the reason I point that out is I just find that really awesome that like one of the first Bond watches, like the true Bond watch quote-unquote, was a quartz, which is kind of neat. And also, honestly, if we're being real, like if, if you— that probably is the watch that James Bond would have. Yeah, no, along with all the other

19:48 gadgetry that's like jammed into the watch. Especially the Pierce Brosnan James Bond, who again, he's like the dressy tool watch of Bonds. Well, he bridges, he bridges the sort of like pre-1990s Bond into the sort of more moody, you know. He bridges more like Roger Moore to, to Daniel Craig, not so much Timothy Dalton, who's a little more rough around the edges. But yeah, no, he's both, you know, brutish in the way James Bond is brutish, but also dapper. So the Seamaster fits him like perfectly.

20:17 Yeah. You know, which— but at this point, it's a very straightforward sponsorship where like the films and the film partnership is being used to market a watch that just exists. That's a flagship product. But one thing that doesn't change here, because when we look at GoldenEye, Tomorrow Never Dies, The World Is Not Enough, Die Another Day, you know, like those 4 movies Yeah, it was the same watch, largely speaking. Now, the watch does get integrated more and more and more into the film. I can't remember which one it is, but at one point, like, Q starts, uh, you know, integrating more gadgetry. There were Q-integrated gadgets in all of them. Okay, there you go. So, so like that, you know, it becomes more of the, of the line, etc. But the, the blue

20:55 dot, the blue wave dial Seamaster, quartz or automatic, is integral to the identity of that era of Bond. And there is a financial outcome of this, which is meaningful. We see almost a tripling of revenue in the '90s, starting from something like $350 million mid-'90s, all the way up to about $900 million in gross revenues for Omega by the end of that decade. Yeah. Let's pause there. This is huge.

21:21 Yes. This is a brand that starts the decade and it's a respectable business. They're bringing about $300 or so million a year in revenue. So again, Omega wasn't yet the brand we think about it today where they're the yin to Rolex's yang. They're a, they're a brand in the stable of Swatch Group, and they've been sort of tapped on the shoulder to play that role, but they're not there. They exit the decade at nearly $1 billion.

21:46 And so this was— in today's money is significantly bigger, which is wild. And it shows you, you know, again, the clarity of vision the Hi-X had on this and the execution that Jean-Claude Biver did, and also the power of the franchise they chose to associate with. I mean, look, Think of it like this. I'm 44 years old now, right? So 1997, 1999 for Tomorrow Never Dies, The World Is Not Enough. This was formative for me when I started thinking about brands. There is a real reason that the first nice watch I bought for myself was a pre-owned Bond Seamaster.

22:15 Quartz. Quartz. And that's— because you wanted to be authentic to GoldenEye, right? No, because I just didn't know what I was buying. But the point is, the point though is that, and maybe this proves that, I didn't care. Because I just wanted a Seamaster. Because in my late 20s, what was I anchoring to?

22:32 Anchoring to what was cool, which was— well, everyone wants the thing that was cool when they were in high school, you know? Like, think about a lot— I mean, I'll speak for myself in terms of the cars and watches and things like that I'm still into. It's the stuff that has, you know, that came of age in that era. So it works. There are other statements. So one thing that's important about talking about the business of this here is we actually don't know what Omega paid for the sponsorship.

23:02 There's everything Jean-Claude Biver has said, tens of thousands of dollars for GoldenEye. Other people have said $2 million. We don't know what they've ever paid for this integration. We can assume it's a lot of money. There are figures out there that have said that just on sponsorships and integrations alone, like Bond films have done like $100 million in revenue. So you can imagine we're likely talking about the millions in terms of what it costs to do these integrations. But we don't know. We also don't know the terms of the contract. To some extent we do. There's co-promotion and, you know, we'll get into some of the later things they did around licensing and stuff like that. But we don't know if there's one agreement in place,

23:42 a film-to-film agreement in place, no agreement. There's some kind of agreement in place. We don't know what the term of it is, when it started, where it ended, how many times it was renewed. We actually don't know because Swatch Group doesn't split it out. How many watches these things are actually selling. A lot of this is reported anecdotally. Yeah. So for instance, one of the previous CEOs of Omega— the, the, the previous CEO of Omega had said that initially around the Bond sponsorship, they would see sales for the brand, not just the Seamaster, rise and fall around, around the film releases and things like that. So we know it is important, we can see that it's important, but we actually don't have any of the

24:25 terms of these, of these deals or any of the financials behind them, which is, which is important to say. But, you know, it's like one of those things, you know it when you see it. Clearly, to your point, this is something that's working. And when we look at a snapshot of Omega and they started the decade in the '90s and where they exited, this was certainly part of the success. So is Cindy Crawford though. Let's give her— I'm sure, I'm sure she quite literally was. So then we, we transition into the new era. By the way, until I looked at the dates, in my mind, like, there was a larger gap between Brosnan and— no, it was one into the other. Yeah, 2003 to 2006, 2002 to 2006.

25:00 Yeah, so 4-year gap, which is also kind of interesting too because like there have been bigger gaps between Craig movies. Yeah, and it's interesting too because Casino Royale tonally, stylistically, in every imaginable way is different from previous, you know, franchises. The way it's shot, the way it feels, and of course You know, the way Craig brings it. I mean, personally, Daniel Craig's my favorite Bond.

25:27 You know, I love that moody vibe that he brings to the character, and like, I like the arc of those movies. But what happens there is actually a massive change in the business model. Well, it precedes that. So with Die Another Day— not quite, because with Die Another Day, you do have a, you do have a unique release that's a numbered edition, but it's still, for all intents and purposes, basically the same watch. Yeah, but it has— so in phase 1, what we're saying is like there was a hero product, there's this, the Bond Seamaster, right?

25:59 There's nothing on that watch that says 007 or anything like that or whatever. It's like the watch that's in the movie is the watch that's in the stores, right? Worked like a charm, great. Starting in 2002, they actually move into the second phase, which is there's still placement in the movie, but now Omega is starting to add licensing.

26:18 And specifically what they're doing is making James James Bond Edition watches. So all of a sudden there's a watch you can buy, but it's not necessarily the watch in the movie. It's a commemorative limited edition. And that's the watch you're talking about, 2002. It's a Bond commemorative Seamaster. They made 10,007 of them. So 10,007.

26:41 Double— doesn't qualify as limited. Yeah, I guess it does. I mean, it's a lot of watches, but that That really starts the chapter. But of course, there's this beat between, you're right, Die Another Day and Casino Royale. And then in this second phase, which really runs through Skyfall, so it covers Casino Royale, Quantum of Solace, and Skyfall. Now a number of things have changed, and you're right, we're in this era where 2 things actually happen. Number one, they start releasing all of these limited edition watches that aren't the watch in the movie. You know, like, right, but are tied to the launch of the movie. Yeah. And we've seen these, like, you know, they have like special rotors or the counterbalance on the second hand

27:22 says 007. Like, there's a lot of really, really cool ones. But the other thing they do that I think is more interesting is they start using the films as a vehicle to launch new collections and new product lines, starting with the Planet Ocean. And it's interesting, you're right. I think at the beginning of Casino Royale, Craig is wearing a coaxial version of the, of the wave dial Seamaster, the blue one. But then later in the film, he wears a Planet Ocean, or maybe it's in the beginning he wears a Planet Ocean. And then of course, there's the ever famous Vesper scene, you know, Rolex Omega.

27:55 Yes, exactly. So they actually out the brand partnership there, or he acknowledges the watch he's wearing. You want to know what's funny about that too? Like in virtually— and I say this as somebody who actually worked in integrated marketing, you know, like I was the guy who would sell that kind of stuff for years. And that's one of those placements that's like so unbelievably overt, but also works so well.

28:18 Because yeah, of course James Bond would act that way, right? You know, they're— you seem to like a psychological profile of one another. Yeah, I think, you know, Omega versus Rolex does fit into someone's psychological profile. It does. So it's well— actually well done, as ham-fisted as it might be.

28:33 Yeah, but it's also the kind of thing that, you know, in the same way that he's very particular about like his suiting, you know what I mean? Like there's also a partnership, much smaller from a success level, but was also a partnership with Turnbull& Asser, for example. Oh yeah, with, with tuxedo shirts and stuff. And, you know, that scene would not have worked if he had been like, Charvet, turn to the Nasser, you know, like no one would have, no one would have cared. It would have been so weird. But like Rolex, Omega, yeah, people understand that. So I think, I think that's interesting. Hey, it's Gabe. And no, I'm not going to ask you to buy a watch. Instead, if you're enjoying this podcast,

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29:43 What we then see is this arc, right, going into Quantum of Solace and then ultimately into Skyfall, which they used as part of the Aqua Terra launch. Quantum of Solace they did, I think. I think it was Skyfall. Oh, you know, you know, yes, no, I'm confusing the two. So yes, and you know, all of these lead up to some— and this is where it gets really interesting— set Spectre.

30:08 Yeah. Now Spectre to me was one of the most interesting— This is Phase 3. So let's be clear. This is called make the prop saleable. Yeah. And here's— and it gets interesting, right? Because now you've got the onscreen watch is available to buy, but something else happens. The Spectre Seamaster 300 is actually better than the stock Seamaster 300 at the time. Didn't the Spectra one have that cool lollipop?

30:40 It had that and it had the, the 12-hour bezel. Oh, it was a 12-hour bezel. That's right. Yeah. No, you're right. Yeah. He's a, he's a globally, you know, man about the world. But like, that was the first one, at least. And now we're into essentially the modern era of watch collecting. This is 2015. You know, Hodinkee is like on the ascent. You know, this— like, the tent of watch collectors is growing. And I remember, I remember seeing the Spectre edition come out and being blown away because not only is it a good watch, I love that, but it was also trading really well on the secondary market because people— because one, it was actually limited relative to— well, what relative to the fact that it was actually the watch in the movie.

31:25 Yeah, that you could then go to this. So that's the difference here. Yeah, like we're not just using this to, to advertise our our, you know, hero products or even launch new ones. Now it's like the watch in the movie is the watch you can buy. That's the shift here. Only 7,007 of them. And it's not genuinely rare for what it is. Totally. And it's not, you know, the watch endorsed by James Bond. It's the watch Bond wears. Although, you know what's weird about that watch? What?

31:50 There's one design flaw because I agree the 12-hour bezel is cool. That— I own the watch. The lollipop seconds hand is cool. Problem with— and then I think it only came on a NATO strap. Or whatever we think you're right, call it a single, single pass-through, you know, trademarked, whatever. The Omega logo is so big on that because again, it was the on-screen watch. And so when you see the watch on his wrist, you want to see it. So they made the Omega logo bigger for the watch in the movie, and therefore the Omega logo on the watch itself is way bigger than on the standard production Seamaster 300. It's a bit, it's a bit awkward, but hey, that's show business. This. Yeah, I mean, no matter how you cut it, killer watch. Yeah,

32:31 and amazing. And it was one of those watches that managed to do like, to, you know, be like culturally relevant part, or a part of pop culture, you know, a totem of pop culture, but also like do fan service for enthusiasts, you know, like being on the NATO strap, you know, being this like kind of underdog choice of doing that Seamaster 300 instead of like the standard professional, having the 12-hour bezel You know, like it was kind of like, oh well, one, you get the idea that James Bond might be actually kind of like, you know, like a watch guy himself.

33:06 But 2, it's doing fan service not just for Bond fans but people who are real watch collectors because they're offering them something that's not just genuinely rare but more interesting from the perspective— from a feature set, more interesting from the perspective of a watch enthusiast. Yeah, and, and I think we'll, we'll get there when we talk about No Time to Die in a second here, but if we look at the product arc, that's interesting, right? If you— in the Brosnan era, you're integrating existing products with essentially minimal to no modification into the films. They see the bump. Then you move into the second phase, and now, you know, where it's basically like, oh, okay, well, we can create these secondary products that are ancillary that can give us a revenue

33:43 bump, but we're still going to stick to like the— or use it as a vehicle to launch new watches. Well, hang on. So that's where we're going, right? And then we get to essentially Spectre, where they take a relaunched product and they sort of reinvigorate it with the Seamaster 300. And then ultimately you get to No Time to Die. Now, No Time to Die changes a lot in terms of the way that Omega operates in this franchise because, one, they release what is essentially an entirely new execution of the Seamaster with the film. It's in fully— it's fully in titanium. It introduces a new mesh bracelet, of course, in titanium at that point. And it has, I think, maybe most notable, it has the MOD logo on the

34:24 dial. Now, that in and of itself was, I think, what blew people's minds to begin with. Because if you're at all interested in military watches, that specific logo of the MOD is something that you hunt, like, with abandon. Sure. And the fact that Omega was able to get that onto the dial is fascinating because it shows a few things. One, yes, we have a new watch that's launching. It's a 5— I'm sorry, yeah, it's a 5-figure watch at time of launch. Launch, or close to 5 figures. Now it is. It was like $7,300.

34:59 I think it is today, but when it launched, it was like 8 to 9. Yeah, so it's very expensive for a Seamaster, relatively speaking, the, the material notwithstanding. But that particular logo on the dial, I think, really blew everybody's mind about it. And it really also tells you how watch culture had evolved, because that level of watch collector catnip would have been absolutely irrelevant to include on a 1990s— yeah, or even maybe early 2000s execution. Like, putting that into Casino Royale I don't think anyone— it wouldn't have been a big enough thing. That's a good point. Like, Spectre certainly did, and they did it here again. Like, yeah, Omega, I think broadly, like, clicking out, one of the things Omega has

35:36 done really well in its modern era— so after Jean-Claude, well after Jean-Claude Biver— is they've managed among large brands to do things that are like broadly commercially, you know, interesting, relevant, cultural, but also fan service for the watch enthusiast. Like, they're one of the few brands that does both well. Yeah, which I think, you know, that watch, the No Time to Die, it's— I think it's a watch that every Omega fan has an opinion on. Some people love it, some people hate it, whatever, but it's like an important watch. Cool people, you know, Conan O'Brien wears one. It's an— it's— listen, it's a cool watch. I think I like the watch. It might be a little too tropical for me, but you know, it's an important watch

36:16 for this era of Omega, and it's non-limited. Correct. Which then set up the modern place of where we sit now with the business. Well, let me give you a figure on this watch. So, so No Time to Die came out in 2021. Yep. Right. It's a non-limited watch. Now, they were harder to get initially, blah, blah, blah, the, you know, sure, whatever. Okay. But it's a non-limited watch. Film comes out in 2021. In 2020— well, in fairness, everything was hard to get in 2021. Sure. In 2024, so 3 years later, the film is a distant memory.

36:50 Everyone's speculating who James Bond is. The watch market is very different in 2024 than it is in 2021. CEO of Omega says that publicly, that the No Time to Die model is one of their top 5 selling watches globally, not just Seamaster but across the product catalog. That's what a massive business this is and what a relevant business this is and what a good watch that is, that the demand is there. So when people say things like— one of the criticisms I know for sure about the No Time to Die watch, whether you like it intellectually or aesthetically, is the price. People find the price premium over a standard Seamaster to be quite high.

37:31 Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that will come up is like, well, that watch will be a failure, no one will ever buy it, it's too expensive. Well, yeah, it's, it's doing fine. Yeah. Look, I want to put the product conversation about that aside because it speaks for itself, and we could debate about the watch, but the bottom line is it's fundamentally a very successful piece.

37:52 And I think it also sets up part of what Omega's strategy, you know, across from Rolex really is, which is offering product— I mean, they can't, they can't beat them on brand, so they have to beat them on product story, you know, on how it makes you feel and on differentiation. Yes, exactly. I mean, they're doing that here. They are, they are.

38:09 Like this, like the No Time to Die You can't really— I mean, I suppose you could compare it if you want to go spec by spec or whatever with a Sub, but the bottom line is a Sub is a Sub, and the No Time to Die has its own point of view. You can like compare it more with a titanium Yacht-Master, but not— yeah, it doesn't really compare on anything. It takes so many more risks, right? And Rolex is in many ways tofu, right? I mean, it takes on whoever's wearing it, as opposed to— as opposed to No Time to Die, which is so well-defined for you know, for better or for worse. Yeah. So the interesting thing here is they see this continued success, and now they begin to uncouple Bond watches from Bond movies. I don't think they have a choice. Well, hang on.

38:53 The reason I bring this up is that this strategy is something that they've already been doing now for years with Speedmasters. Yeah. You know, they're— I mean, how many times can you go back and revisit the Apollo missions? Apparently, according to Omega, Omega quite a lot. Yeah. But well, they've dialed that back.

39:08 Yeah. Because I think they've done like an edition for, you know, it's next thing you know, they're going to do editions for like Apollo missions that never happened. Apollo 19, the mission that could have. Anyway, I'm sure they're very excited about like, oh, they don't have the rights to, to the next moon missions, do they? I have no idea. I don't think they do. Anyway, whatever. So my point is they, they now start to, they start to run with the IP. IP, right? Yeah. So this is Phase 4. We're calling this evergreen IP. Now, part of this is just by necessity.

39:37 Now, maybe business strategy as well. We can talk about that. But same, same. It's forced by necessity, which is that was in No Time to Die. It was 2021. It was Daniel Craig's last movie. It was his, his reign was supposed to end with Spectre, and it took them so long to figure out what to do with the franchise. They just decided, well, you know, 6 years later, we'll do another, another film with Daniel Craig, which, by the way, great film. Oh, it's excellent. It's pro— up there with Skyfall. Those are probably the 2 best. I don't know. Skyfall, Casino Royale.

40:07 Casino Royale. Those are all good. Casino Royale is just like, yeah. What a, what a run. But now here we are in 2025, 4 years later, we still don't even know who the next Bond is. And we'll talk about the business changing a lot, but there's been this just no man's land period where they have to do something, I guess. Well, they don't, but they did. And that's where it gets interesting. So in '22, they released the watch that we have an example of here that I'm wearing, which is the Bond 60th Anniversary. Now, there's a couple of things that I find interesting about this watch, and a lot of it revolves just around my own personal experience with it, which is I remember seeing it come out thinking at first glance that that watch was bomb

40:47 because— and I can tell you wearing it on my wrist right now, it is. Did it come out 2023? '22. '22. Okay. So, but that was— so Dr. No was 1962 then. Interesting. Yeah. The thing about it though is of course it comes out at like $2,500-some-odd premium over the standard, standard Seamaster. It's a no-date version. You're like, what? Yeah. Okay. Putting that aside for a minute though.

41:12 Now, can you still buy that watch? Yeah, it's a limited production watch. Okay. Interesting. And I think what I find interesting about it now is that wearing it, I can tell you, I find this watch to be better than the production Seamasters. I like— and I like the fact that the designers at Omega did not go over the top. We'll get to the caseback in a second, but did not go over the top with the design of the watch itself. You have, you know, a lot of collector catnip here, you know, lollipop hand, no-date caliber, aluminum bezel insert. The 60 is not like, you know, in red like they did, you know, with the 50th anniversary Instead, printed wave dial. Wow. Printed wave dial.

41:52 What they did here also was put 60 to replace the triangle pip, which is like practical. It makes sense. It's cool. I guess if you're a diver, it might be annoying, but like, whatever. That's not what this is. What's interesting to me too about this one is like with the release of the Snoopy a few years prior, they had started looking at these sort of like animated casebacks, you know, and like with, with the current edition of the Snoopy, the silver Snoopy, you know, you have Snoopy flying across, you know, and that's the best caseback.

42:19 It's so cool. And, and the thing that I love about it is like it walks right up to the line of being too kitschy, but like stays on the side of being kind of charming. Yeah, wins you over on charm. Yeah, totally. And the caseback of this watch, for those who are unfamiliar, as the seconds hand moves, you get this sort of like Bond silhouette, you know, à la the opening sequences appearing on the caseback, which manages to do the same thing where it's, it's just kitschy enough that it stops short of being corny and is just charming. And I find that to be like really appealing. Plus you also have the domed sapphire crystal on this, which gives a little bit more— that was one of the things that really surprised me, is the crystal on that is so different from

43:00 the standard production, which I think is just essentially a flat or slightly domed. It's flat. And that thing just gives the watch a totally different character, which I think people misunderstand when they're like, it's so fat. It's like, well, it is because you have the, the animation on the caseback and the domed crystal. Crystal. Does that make it thicker? Yeah. Does that also— the mid-case is the same. The mid-case is the same, and it adds to a lot of the charm of it. But the reason I spend so much time here talking about the product is that to justify your purchase. No, what I— the reason I keep coming back to this is just that this watch in particular is a better watch than the production model, in my opinion. And there, I'm sure there are others who will disagree,

43:38 but don't they make like a standard production like wave dial, like old-fashioned wave dial. Yeah, but with a date, and it comes on, and you can configure it with the stainless steel mesh bracelet. What does it come with? It's a black dial. They make a blue dial one as well. I don't really know. The standard production is black, white, blue, and green. Got it. But it's got a date. Does it have the aluminum bezel?

43:57 No, those have ceramic bezels. They do. Yeah, so this, this has that additional sort of like throwback. Yeah. Anyway, all that to say, you can like it, you cannot like it. It is a distinct product, and it sells relatively well. You know, like there's a reason people find it popular, which then leads to the next 2 iterations to bring us to the modern day.

44:18 There's the 007 First Light Chronograph. Which watch are we forgetting though? Another off-cycle watch. Remember the Commander one? Oh yeah. Yeah. This was like a, I think it was another off-cycle watch again due to the Daniel Craig No Man's Land period. So that kind of predates all of this. It does. It sort of falls a little bit outside of the timeline, but that was a Seamaster Professional, so, you know, the scalloped bezel. You know what was weird about the Commander watch? The Commander watch, I think, was not a good design.

44:47 Oh no, no, no, it's very awkward. It was awkward. You had all these different colorways. It sort of looks a little bit like the America's Cup thing, but it's not. Then there— it came on a NATO. The NATO didn't really match the dial. I don't know. Yeah, but we got to acknowledge that this— that was the first time they did one of these kind of off-cycle Yeah, watches that didn't really do much. And, you know, they've, they've revisited it and it seems to be working better now. 100%. So that brings us to 2026 where we get an integration into First Light, which is a video game, which is a Seamaster chronograph.

45:26 This one is a little bit of a quandary to me because I'm not a gamer, so I can't really speak to this. I think when we look at the video game industry relative to the film industry, there's been a lot of comparison about this. Like it's just, it's a huge growing business. Is, and they're a lot bigger. And by the way, Omega is not the only people to engage in this. I believe Hamilton has also done some video game integrations with— was it Call of Duty? That sounds right. They may have done multiple.

45:48 So, you know, I— this is a space that I am— I don't really have much to contribute on other than to say, like, you have to again appreciate and respect that they're investigating in that corner. But that leads us to a much more interesting release, which is what happened a couple days ago, which is the Bond and Spectre collection. Yeah. Now the Bond Spectre collection are essentially once again based off the modern Seamaster 300. One is a 007 variant variant. One is a Spectre variant. Not tied to a movie, but tied to the evergreen IP in the world of James Bond. Now, there is one thing I'll point out for, for that I pick up as a Bond fan, which I can see how other people would like roll their eyes at.

46:22 And if you're a Bond fan, you might as well. But I do think this is kind of interesting. Spectre as an organization, like from all the movies all the way up to the modern iteration, has always had Spectre rings. Oh yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like the octopus, the little signet ring. Yeah, yeah. And I think So the idea of there being a Spectre watch actually kind of works. Kind of works. You know what I mean?

46:43 Oh, dude, I, I love the idea of the Spectre. The Spectre watch is the dopest of the two. It absolutely kills. I just— I don't know. I was— I wanted— I was looking for something maybe a little more sinister or cool. Yeah. I mean, look, you can argue about when they wanted to push it one way or the other, but the reason why I think these watches came out and they felt like distilled down to the most commercial execution is because look at what has worked. The Seamaster 60th Anniversary, the No Time to Die. The— I think the lesson they take— the Commander watch, correct? Not the 007 counterbalance on the seconds hand. I think it's got to look like it can sit in the display next to everything else

47:20 because it's going to have to for years, correct? And I think if you, if you, if you borrow off the IP and have that inform the design, it's better than if you just are like so in your face about it that it feels like a Mickey Mouse watch, which is what some of those logos kind to do. Like, I don't want a 007 with a tiny little trademark as a counterbalance. Like, that's, that's just corny, but in my opinion. Yeah, you know, and I guess you could turn around and be like, but an octopus on the, you know, on the, on the, the rotor isn't?

47:47 Yeah, well, to me, no. Yeah, I think it's cool. Yeah. So, you know, all this to say, so many people buy watches not because of whether they like it or not, but what it says to other people. And if you're buying a watch to signal like that, maybe, you know, having that little detail just for yourself is better. So there's something in in it for the signaling of it to other people. I'm wearing a nice Omega, and then there's something additional for yourself.

48:08 But yeah, I mean, you're right. I think that's the thing is like they, now that they've turned this into an evergreen platform, which is like the limited editions, as far as we know, essentially went out the window with No Time to Die. And so now these things need to be, and who knows when Amazon Studios is gonna get their act together. We'll talk about the switch to Amazon in a second, but when they'll get their act together with Denis Villeneuve to do the next Bond film, could be years. So these things are going to need to be able to sit at the boutique for years and get people coming back and back and back. And so they cannot rely on novelty.

48:43 They need something that's an appealing and attractive design that looks like it's part of the core collection. Yeah. So look, I, I, this is, as so many things like this are, kind of a case study of itself. Yeah. But I do believe it's important to, in the same way that like Apple advertising of the early 2000s created an entirely new school of reductive advertising that really think helped define the modern era of that. I do believe that, but that the association with Bond redefined the way that watch brands present themselves to clients and customers, and the product falls out of that a little bit.

49:19 I think so. I think it's a case study of one, to your point, like, because I still think— well, no, I do think the success is a case study of one, but I do think that it changed the way that— because now we see film— I mean, look, do you think that like the Murph watch wouldn't be— yeah, and IWC has pursued collaborations with Top Gun and others. Okay. Okay, like that sort of association and tight-knit, you know, element of IP. I mean, we've seen that Hamilton honestly is, is one of the best of these, but no one's done it. I mean, this is a 30-year partnership. It is. But my point is, those things stand on the shoulders of this in terms of rationale and marketing your product next to mainstream media.

49:58 But still, no one is marketing a dive watch in this way. It's still, you know, right? That's a fun, fun comparison there. Still a sea of sameness. There's a playbook, most people run it. Omega has decided to do something fundamentally differentiated. Their product is fundamentally different— differentiated, and the marketing is fundamentally differentiated.

50:18 And that is part of the success of the Seamaster. It's not just that it's a watch that goes head-to-head with the Submariner on specs, it's that they decide it goes head-to-head on the Submariner in terms of— with the Submariner in terms of specs, but in terms of the price product and the, and the marketing around it, it's entirely differentiated. And this is a lesson that I wish Omega and others would take more.

50:41 For sure. Well, I think we can just keep our eyes to the future on this one because who knows what will come on the Amazon front, but it is definitely— and who knows if Omega will be part of that or another watch brand will. I have to imagine there's got to be a battle right now. I'll give you a conspiracy theory to wrap here.

50:57 So just as the— as when the sponsorship started in the early '90s or the mid-'90s, when Bond and Omega were at a crossroads. We're at another crossroads now. Bond is very much at a crossroads. We're waiting for a new Bond. It's the creative control of Bond has transferred from the Broccoli family to Amazon MGM. Because they've done such great work with Lord of the Rings.

51:20 Oh, that's right. Oh my God, that's right. So creative control and control of the franchise has shifted to Amazon. It's a huge period of change. The media industry's going through tons of turbulence. This is a reboot reset moment the same way it was right before GoldenEye. Will deny. Actually, pause. It is kind of incredible that we've got one of the best, like, modern supervillains in Jeff Bezos. There are many modern supervillains who— that guy is like such a supervillain energy to him, you know? Like, oh my God, some of the supervillains— like, I think it was, uh, in Tomorrow Never Dies, the supervillain was like a media magnate. Yeah, he's using the internet to control media narratives. It was very prescient. Cue the Jeff Bezos laugh.

51:59 Yeah, or others. But in any event, they're at a crossroads. Omega and its competitive set is at a crossroads. We've talked about this. Tudor is ascendant. So my conspiracy theory is that— and we've also talked about the fact that Rolex uses Tudor as an Omega spoiler, METAS certification being one. Omega comes in and says, we have a new, better standard than even the superlative chronometer over here. We have METAS Master Chronometers. Rolex says, that's cute. Tudor will be Master Chronometer certified as well. My theory here is that this is an opportunity, and we don't know anything about this. It's just a conspiracy Rolex uses this as an Omega spoiler opportunity where they have Tudor go after the relationship now with Amazon and with

52:45 Bond. It would make a lot of sense when you think historically about Rolex and Tudor and Rolex's role in James Bond and Tudor's affiliation with, with military units and dive watches and things like that. Tudor is a brand on the rise. Tudor in many ways is in the position Omega was in. Totally see a Bond You know, like the same way like the Swatch Group tapped Omega to go after Rolex, you could see Rolex tapping Tudor to go after Omega now.

53:11 And wouldn't they love to spoil this, one of the most successful marketing partnerships of all time? And I think Tudor has the ingredients to do it. And again, we don't know what the terms of the deal with Amazon are or what they were with the Broccolis, but we do know in the shape of Tudor, Rolex has an Omega spoiler.

53:30 And I wouldn't be surprised if there's any opportunity for them to pursue it, if they would. And if any other brand were to fill this role, Tudor certainly could. So we'll see what happens there, Mr. Bond. It's what happens in Goldfinger. He's like, you expect me to talk, Goldfinger? No, I expect you to die.

53:53 We'll leave it. We'll leave it now. We'll leave it there. All right. Well, this of course is Open Work. It's a production of Collective Horology. You can find us online at collectivehorology.com. There are no Bond Seamasters there, but there are plenty— and I mean, we've got dozens of independent watch brands at collectivehorology.com.

54:12 So go there to check those out, and while you're at it, send us your feedback, your questions, suggestions, your favorite Bond Seamasters. And to do that, you can email us at podcast@collectivehorology.com.