Who is HomeView For? Apple’s Fight for the Smart Home, Anthropic Thinks Claude Has Feelings

0:00 This is my house. I have to defend it. Welcome to Primary Technology, the show about the tech news that matters. It was a big Apple experience event week. We're gonna get in-depth on HomeView, the new Apple Home collection with accessories from LG and Schneider, new Apple TV 4K. Man, that thing is expensive.

0:16 HomePod Mini 2, Plus, you can't be mean to Claude anymore, so says Anthropic. YouTube Music is gonna label music as AI. and more. This episode is brought to you by SERP API, Ramp, Origin, and you, the members who support us directly. I'm one of your hosts with three home views on the way. Joined by my co host Jason. How's it going, Jason?

0:37 I have zero home views on the way. I just want to be clear. Mark's safe from buying a home view. I s yeah. I you know, I said three and I was just thinking about it. I think it's I think I bought two. I bought the desk version and the wall mount, but then I had to buy the separate wall mount. So that's the I had three home view items, but just two home views. That's just a correction.

0:55 listen, we're gonna get to home view. We'll give we just just give us a second here. Two two very exciting things. One, I have a shortcuts pillow. Have you seen this? I don't think this is an exciting thing. This is just a shameless plug. No, this is an exciting thing for me. Well, also, I think this is when it's coming out.

1:11 I was I'm going to be on the Verge cast again. David David Pierce hit me up. He asked me to come on to talk. And so I think it comes out Monday. So be eyes peeled Monday for episode. But I troll David with this very shortcuts pillow. And I was wearing a shortcut shirt during the recording of that episode.

1:26 So stay tuned. That's coming out Monday. And we might have some other exciting stuff on this show special guest coming soon. So we we will confirm later. We need to get to Home View, but real quick, Weather Dog 87 from the USA gave us a five-star rating an apple podcast. Thank you so much for that. And Marcin in Poland.

1:42 He has our polar bear knight. I always say it the wrong way. I always mean to say knight riding a polar bear. Yeah. But I I always start with the polar bear riding a knight. And I don't want to say that. But anyway, he has our medieval knight riding a polar bear in Poland. So very cool for that. And he actually has worked on making an app for a long time and I wanted to plug it.

2:03 This is not a vibe coded app. This is an app that he learned Swift and spent a long time figuring learning to be a developer. And he made Mick Snake. It's a free app on the Mac. And if you are nostalgic for the old school Snake game, you could download it for free. Just a casual game and that is super fun.

2:20 So thank you, Marcin, for ~ the picture and also for the game. You should check it out. You should. Can I say one thing about vibe coded apps real quick? I know and this will be quick. Sure, sure. We'll talk about it later t as well, I we do? I'll save I can save it. but go ahead. Well, I want to talk about my No, Well, okay.

2:33 you can say it now. Say no, go ahead. I just have discovered the biggest pitfall of vibe coding an app, which Okay, what's that? is people will send you a lot of feature requests. And when you're when you take the time to respond and say, I don't actually think that that's a like here's why I probably won't do that.

2:49 I appreciate it. Like, dude, just ask Claude to do it. It's not that big of a deal. And I'm like, you don't understand. Mm. Just because it wouldn't be hard to implement that feature doesn't mean it would be a good idea. Just because you could, doesn't mean you should. That is a great point. I actually talk about that with David on Monday a little bit.

3:05 Okay. And so that's a good plug. And we're we'll talk about vibe-coded apps later as well. Because yeah, got a lot. And one other follow-up. I mentioned last week, we're up for a signal award. And voting ends tomorrow if you listen to this episode when it comes out on Thursday. So go vote if you haven't yet.

3:21 We are up for best co host team, which I so hope we win the best co host team. That'd be amazing. That would be amazing. But you can go vote for Primary technology in the best podcast category, best tech podcast, and the best co host team. I don't know if this visual is represent well like representative of the amount of votes shows are getting.

3:42 It can't be. It's gotta just be random, don't you think? I imagine it's gonna be random, but we're second from the top right now. So I'm gonna take that as hope that maybe we have a chance to win this thing. Yeah, but if I look at it it's a totally different order. I'm sorry. Don't why'd you have to why do have to do that, Jason?

3:55 That's okay. But listen, we good go vote. And the tip that I said last week, because you do have to create an account to vote, which is always a little slimy when, you know, places make you do that. I mentioned the plus and the at symbol for email accounts where you can basically have a built-in alias.

4:13 So whatever your email address is, plus icon, and then random letters or a word, and then the at gmail.com symbol goes to your inbox. And I said it doesn't work with Outlook or iCloud last week. And I had a lot of listeners write in and they were like, actually it does. So if you use iCloud or Outlook, that little plus ~ trick to have like a secondary or as many email addresses as you want and then filter that address works with Outlook and iCloud as well.

4:40 So do that and then you can filter all those messages wherever you want. Yeah, that is the important piece, by the way. Just adding Yes. the plus and the bunch of gibberish is meaningless because it's still gonna come to your inbox. You then have to take the gibberish That's right. and add a filtering.

4:52 Yeah, and do do a thing. Like I have on my YouTube channel, I use one of these plus things like plus YT, and then I have a filter that any email that gets sent to that plus YT at my email address goes to a folder. And then I can choose to check that whenever I want. Or tell Claude to, you know, whatever you want.

5:10 Or not check it. Okay. Big Apple Home experience experience event this week. I want to get right to the home view. This is the long rumored. I looked back, and Andrew O'Hara and I first mentioned this in March 2021 on HomeKit Insider. It was the first time a rumor about a home pod with a screen came from journalist Mark German. And that was five plus years ago that we've been hearing about this kind of device. And it's finally here.

5:40 The HomeView, it is a seven-inch display, and it is a mix of Apple Watch plus. HarPlay plus maybe iPad type stuff, but it is meant to be your home control where you can look at recipes and beam stuff from your phone, and it is a Siri AI machine and all the things. It has a camera, it will recognize up to six people, which is complicated, and we're gonna get into that as well.

6:08 And a lot of creator videos are out there on it, and I will link to a few that I'll discuss. But the first video I'm going to link to is Apple's own marketing video for this, which Jason and I are going to disagree on the use cases of the home view in general, but maybe we agree on this. I did not find this marketing video compelling.

6:30 I actually found it off-putting for this device for several reasons. How did you find this marketing video? This marketing video, I think, Steven, Yes. was worse than the one where they did the keynote in the middle of WWDC showing Siri Apple Apple intelligence. This is worse. Because there's a whole lot of hand waviness about like, how fast is this user switching?

6:51 And there's like no Yeah. way. And it's like then the FaceTime call pops up and it's like, call for this person. Is it because it called that person's phone number and it's showing up so why is it showing up on the screen if somebody else is using it? Right? Like and as soon as you turn it, like it just Switches to someone else's messages?

7:07 Like, is it possible that it's that fast? Like, I feel like there was so much of this, and I don't I didn't I didn't have a briefing on this, just to be clear. I've done talked to anyone. Steven's the first person I've talked to about this event about this thing. So I've Ha ha. got so many ideas and feelings at the moment.

7:24 But I think that this video is worse than the Apple Intelligence presentation at was it 2024 WWDC. Yeah, yeah. I have I have some information, ~ but the first thing I want mention, so this device, you can get multiple models, and that's complicated as well. We'll get to that. But the tabletop version, which is three hundred dollars, it's a USB C port in the back.

7:48 If you buy the tabletop version, you actually get a cable and power brick in the box. If you buy the Walmount version, you don't, which is crazy making because it's the same price. And so if you want the wall mount version, you have to spend more on the mount. Anyway, I'll get into that in second. Please tell me you asked them how those two things were the same price.

8:07 I had a limited time, so I did not get to the No, no, no. I don't why did no one ask them how are these two versions the same price? Okay, let me just tell you right now. I I have a theory and we'll see if it comes true. If you wanted to pre-order this today, which it you can pre-order today, it comes out November thirteenth.

8:23 The Apple Home View, like tabletop edition, is $300. The wall-mounted one is also $300, but you remember, you don't get the base, You don't get a home pod with it. which has you don't get the big speaker with it. And to add insult to injury, you have to pay extra for a mount. So even if you just want the wall mount that plugs into USB-C, that's another $60. So now you're $60 more than the tabletop version.

8:48 The AC wired version is $80. And if you want the PoE version, which is not for sale yet, $130. So you could pay. Which is the only version you should get. Well, yeah, and it's, you know, it's complicated. You don't have Ethan already run to a wall or whatever. I'm hopeful that like the 3D printing world and accessory makers make a nice swiveling.

9:10 Tabletop mount for the PoE version. Because I would do a PoE swiveling version like on my desk here. And I think that would be money. But you can't, like right now, Apple is only selling PoE for a Wall mount. So Grove made, make a beautiful wooden swiveling case or you know, tabletop mount, and that would be hot.

9:31 Anyway, my theory is if you remember, the studio display XDR Vesa mount version. was the same price as the Studio Display XDR tilt and height adjustable version when it launched. And I bought it day one. And then I got a $400 refund from Apple because they adjusted the price after the fact. So I am hoping, I don't have any background information on this, but I am hoping that they come to the same realization that ~ we should this should be cheaper because you get less and you have to buy a mount in addition to the $300.

10:08 I'm hoping that they adjust the price post like release. We'll see. Do you think the fa yeah, how is it but okay. But the it felt like the studio display thing was like, shoot, we didn't like we didn't do math. We didn't think about the fact that people are gonna notice, I'm I'm hoping but like that I'm hoping the same person that did that math did this math and they have I'm hoping the person that did that math was fired.

10:26 to correct them again. I don't I know, Come on, Steven. Like this is because that was bad math. because it it is like like a hit to their credibility for this product, It's Yeah. that one version includes a base, which is also a subwoofer. So Yeah. it's gonna sound so what you want is a is a home pod with a screen.

10:43 That's that. The one that goes on your wall is not a home pod with a screen. Right. And also the wall mounted version, not only do you have to buy the sixty dollar wall mount, but you have to buy a power adapter separately. And this power adapter that they recommend is another forty dollars. So you're now over four hundred dollars for a wall mount version.

11:01 And I think that's not that's not fair. ~ You're being too nice, Stephen. I well, I mean it's just it's not fair. And I I I'm hopefully they go back on that. So on the actual device, the d screen tilts, so you can actually tilt the seven inch display. But I want to be clear that it does not swivel. And a lot of the creators that were at the event, Andrew Edwards said this, ~ I think Eric Whelander said it.

11:25 And congrats to Eric Whelander, Shane Watley. There was a bunch of smart home creators that this was like their first Apple event, and that was very cool. So congrats to all those guys and girls. But the swiveling, they they didn't allow a lot of creators to actually touch it. Matthew Panzerino on on social media was like, Can anyone send me a picture of the back of the wall mounted version?

11:46 Because everybody wants to know, like, what is the what does the back of the home view look like for the wall mount? And Apple did not want any pictures, didn't want anybody touching it, and a lot of creators couldn't touch it. Now I saw MKBHD use it, and I saw Jennifer Twee from The Verge physically interacting with it, but a lot of other creators had to just film the Apple person using it.

12:05 So there's not a lot of videos of the creators actually using it. So the question was, does this thing swivel? Because in the marketing video, it shows the family constantly turning this thing. It does not. And if you look at their marketing video, like around 42 seconds, the mom moves it, but she physically grabs the base and moves like moves the whole thing.

12:29 Because this thing is small, you know, it's not a large thing. And I realized I just was not sharing my screen. So let's try that one more time. Mm. ~ So the mom, like around it's like 40-something seconds, she walks up to it. And you can see and if you look at all the videos that it's very clear, it does not swivel. She grabs the little dome part and physically moves it.

12:47 So it seems easy enough to do it, but to be clear, it's not swivel. There's gonna be one thousand accessories that probably just make a swiveling base for this thing, I'm sure. There will not be one thousand accessories for this, Steven. They will not sell a thousand of these. I don't know, man. Okay. This is my home I have to protect.

13:01 So there will not be a thousand. I'm just there's home alone, dude. Did you know where that movie was from, by the way? The movie quote? Thank you. Come on. Absolutely. Okay, I just want to make sure I had to go back and plug it. The other thing that's crazy making about this video is this obviously feels like the perfect kitchen device. That is where the whole marketing video takes place.

13:19 Now, I don't know how your kitchen is set up, but my kitchen, we have an island, and the stove part is in the island. And if s I wanted to use this for recipes and cooking, it needs to be there on the island. And this marketing video has the power cable for the home view going down into this little hole in the island. Now, listen, I don't want to be that guy, but we have a granite island, and I'm not drilling a hole for the home view.

13:47 Right. Right. I'm sorry. And I'm also not having a USB C cable over the side of our kitchen island. You know how many times that home view would crash to the ground? If we had a cable just laying across the island and the kids running around. So like that part of the marketing video, it's like, listen, I do not think people are gonna drill a hole in their table.

14:07 but obviously like that is the intent is to have this clean look of w because that's the only other way you could also rotate this thing all around the island as everybody's using it. Anyway. Are you gonna drill a hole in your in your island when people Yeah. Well No, but also I'm trying to figure Yes.

14:24 out which part of this we're in still. Are we s we're still talking about the video? Okay. Yeah, no, no, that's good. I'm still talking about the video just because those were the two crazy making I just was trying to things. It's like it they showed it all the people moving it around, but it actually doesn't swivel.

14:34 They're just like physically moving the device. And two, cutting a hole in your island I think is a a big ask. We'll just say that. Well, yeah, okay. So the p the biggest thing that's wrong with this video is nobody is doing anything with this device that they shouldn't just be doing with their phone. Everything they didn't show anything about controlling your shades.

14:55 Well, he clear he changed Whatever, like the temperature. He changed the thermostat temperature. That was it. He got in trouble for that, Ish. He got in trouble for that, I think. He was but fine he changed the temperature which I'm like, man. Could I while he's cooking. Maybe you shouldn't be changing the temperature in your house while you're cooking, because I don't know that you're in a good situation at that moment.

15:10 Well and also if your hands are all French toasty, Yeah, you're really gonna touch the screen to change the temperature? you should have shouted to the voice assistant. Yeah. You should have said, Hey Dingus, turn the temperature down So, you know, obviously like this part of it is is very contrived because they're trying to show all the features on the device.

15:26 Let's let's just get into the the your problems with it and my defense. Like what is this thing for? Who is this for? Okay, let me frame it like this. We have a Google Home Hub Max. I think that's I think that's the name, and if it is, it's the first time I've ever said it correctly. Cause it used to be called a I think I think you're right. I think you're right.

15:47 Nest Hub Max, I think, and then they changed it to Google Right. Home Nest Hub Plus Pro. Something like that. That's exactly right. You nailed it, We have one of those nailed it. in our kitchen. And it is a fantastic speaker. Like it's a very good speaker. I would say it's like 90% as good as a as a single home like OG home pop.

16:06 Okay, it's a good Yeah, yeah. speaker and it has a screen on it. And all it ever does is my wife uses it to play music when she's in the kitchen or cleaning the house. It shows photos from Google Photos, which is by far the best feature of it because you can just starve photos in Google Photos and they'll just show up on there.

16:22 It also tells answers random Google questions that my 12 year old shouts at it occasionally. Yes, yes. And it ~ w it can it serves as if you're in the Google Home Assistant. ecosystem it services like the hub for that. So if you have any of the plugs that need it need a hub, it works for that. So that means that you can shout at it and it'll turn on all of our lights, turn them off.

16:45 But and just to be clear, with the exception of Lutron, which I'll get to in a second, that is the most it like it works every single time. If I say turn off the light in the front room, Yeah. Yeah. it it just happens instantly. It is super reliable. And the reason I said Lutron is I would argue that the Lutron ones are more reliable, and those are through the home kit, but that's because they have their own controller or whatever.

17:08 Hub. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it sits in the corner of our kitchen. I don't need it to swivel. It doesn't ever need to move. You know what I've never done with it? Tried to look up a recipe. You know, the only place I've ever looked up a recipe? My iPhone. Like it's it's like it's this is this Yeah.

17:24 the way they are conceiving of this device is make it only makes sense. Okay, this is who this device is for. Yes. Me. You have zero? No, it's not. It's definitely not for you. I will I will get to that. Okay, It's continue. definitely not for you. It is for the person. And this is kind of like what Apple does, and I guess you gotta respect them for that.

17:44 It is the person who thinks having a smart home would be cool, but I have zero smart home things. I have no smart home anything in my house. I'm gonna start with this, and then I'm gonna buy the LG lock, LG doorbell, LG camera, whatever. Because Most people's home like I understand you have a bunch of home kit stuff.

18:05 I get that. Also, you're living just fine without this device. Like you don't need this thing. And but if you like in my house, this would be super useless. The Google thing I already have is infinity more useful because everything already just works with it. Why would I replace it with this home view where most of the things that I have already will not work?

18:26 Okay, well here is my defense of the home view. Because I d number one, I do think you have to be completely steeped in Apple home for this to be of value. And there's just to be clear, there's like 75 of you, and you all have YouTube channels. Like no no no, and I don't even mean that to be condescending.

18:44 I know. Yeah. I just I listen, this is not me trying to be negative, and it's certainly not negative toward you. I I just No, no, I know, I know. It's not the norm. want to set the bar like where it actually is for what you're saying right now. Yeah. Yeah. Most people have a ring doorbell, and that's the only smart home thing they have.

19:02 And this is why this launched alongside the it entire Apple Home collection of devices, because I think Apple knows this the value of this thing is greatly decreased if you don't have a video doorbell that works with this thing. Like if you don't see when someone rings the doorbell, if you don't see that video on the home view, it's going to be a much less compelling device.

19:29 Now, for me. I am knee deep. I am shoulders deep. No, you are not knee deep, Steven. I am top of the I am drowning. It's right here. It's right above your ears. I am drowning in Apple Home products. Like I have made a video every year doing a smart home tour. I'm now over 150. Now that there's home view, I'll be over 200 because I'll have 50 of them.

19:51 No. But I like it's clear that the value has to come from you are in the Apple Home ecosystem. Now. Just a few bullets I want to put up here because like why would you use a home view instead of an iPad on the wall or in the kitchen or a home pod? We have had a home pod mini in our kitchen for h however long.

20:13 There's just always been a home pod mini there. Number one, yes, it plays music, albeit poorly. My daughter had to shout at it four times yesterday to get it to play the right song. So not smart. B, there's no screen. And like you're saying, your Google thing has a screen, maybe you don't use it. But I have a couple use cases there.

20:31 well, I'll get to. And just the for like why not an iPad? You know, a lot of people say like, you know, you can get an iPad for almost the same price. 3D printed on the wall or whatever. It's more flexible. I think an iPad is a less useful device for the kitchen. We'll just say there. Like for the kitchen for the home.

20:52 Because things like when someone rings your video doorbell, if it's an Apple home, like you don't get a live preview on the iPad. If the iPad is unlocked and awake and you have the home app open, maybe, but that's a very like you can't automatically launch the video doorbell view on an iPad. You can't have a recipe on your phone and then you can airplay it or ~ airdrop it to the iPad, but it's not gonna be formatted super great.

21:18 Maybe you want to go into reader mode. So I do think like having some of these bespoke use cases will be beneficial. And the live video of the doorbell, I have an Accara thermostat in my family room that shows me an image of the video doorbell. Because I have both the Accara video doorbell and the Acar thermostat. And that is a genuinely useful feature because in this family room, I can't see the front door or any windows leading out to there.

21:45 And so being able to have that video up is helpful. And like the few times where we've been recording this podcast And there might be a FedEx truck delivery that I have to sign for. I will turn on my Apple TV and have the video doorbell camera open and live on like my multi-view over here, just so I can keep an eye on the doorbell.

22:07 And this home view would is actually a better device for that, specifically. And second, I mean I think recipes specifically on this device where you can actually tap. The timers in the steps as you're going, I think is cool. Wait, where is this coming from though? Well, it's either Safari on the device or you airdrop a s recipe from your phone.

22:30 So it's gonna just reformat any recipe anywhere on the internet into this? Yeah. Yes. That is I don't think so. No way. that is what it shows in all the videos. And they no no no, but not just the marketing It also shows user switching that's instantaneous. I mean video, but like the creator videos, they do this demo at they did this at the house in New York as they were doing this.

22:47 Like you have a recipe on some random website on your phone, you beam it to the home view, and it formats like this. And you can tap ingredients and you can tap steps. And the Apple, like in Safari. If you do like the reader view, it will do this with recipes right now in Safari. So it's already built in. So I'm fairly sure that feature will legitimately be on the home view. And the another one is timers.

23:14 Now you can set a timer on a home pod mini, you can set it on any device that you have, any Apple device. Sure. I cannot tell you how many times a day I hear shouted to our HomePod Mini how much time is left on the timer. Everyone asked the same question several times a day. And I do think having a visual of the timer that you can just glance over and see it on a nice seven-inch screen can be useful rather than having to continually ask it. Also, pinging your phone. Like in the marketing video and else like this plugs into the findline network. And we'll get to the multiple user aspect of this in a moment.

23:54 But the fact that my wife could shout to it, where's my phone? Which yes, she does it from her watch, usually, but sometimes she's also carrying three smoothie cups and her purse to the car and she doesn't know where her phone is. So to be able to be shout out to the room, where's my phone? And that works with air tags as well.

24:12 So you can ask her where's my keys? And that it works with multiple users. If it works if it works well, and that's a big if and we have to test it, I think that could be useful. How in the world is that gonna work, Steven? How does it know whose phone? She's nowhere near the thing. So Voice Voice voice recognition.

24:28 it unlocks your personal information just based on voice. Yes, which home pods have advertised that it does that today, albeit not well. Yeah. And so that's that's the big caveat is can it do this reliably? And that is the other aspect of why not an iPad in the kitchen, the multi-user aspect. And now there's a whole argument there of like Apple should have done multi-users on iPad forever and can do it in situations like education.

24:57 And so that's frustrating. But I think the multi-user aspect, if it's good. If it's good. Steven. I think it could be beneficial. Yes. You there, Jason. Go ahead. Hold on, okay. My rebuttal. Your Honna. Yana Yana. Hold on. Okay. You haven't mentioned a single thing though that's not better just doing it on your phone.

25:17 In fact, the recipe thing has to start from your phone. In the video it didn't. The guy just like pulled up a text message and It doesn't have to start from it doesn't have to start from your phone. it had a recei you said beam it from your phone. You can do that or open safari on the home view and find a recipe.

25:30 Why wouldn't you just use your phone for that? Well, first of all, I've cooked waffles and such and I had the recipe on my phone and and it You don't need a recipe for waffles, Steven. is a pain in the butt it there were almond flour waffles, Okay. okay? So there's a little more ingredients than regular waffles.

25:44 Like trying to prop up your phone and also like are you going to go to settings and make sure the screen never turns off every time you do a recipe? Because my screen's set to turn off in 30 seconds. And if you're trying to do a recipe, that's a pain in the butt. So to have a display that will stay on and that recipe is large and I don't have to figure out where to prop up my phone.

26:02 And I don't have to think about flour getting on my iPhone or whatever or sticky egg stuff. I would want I want that. I want that device. For three hundred dollars though? Plus, again, if you're not steeped up to your eyeballs in Apple Home, Mm-hmm. I get that this product is not as compelling. Yeah, if you have a ring doorbell, you should not buy this.

26:21 Because the other compelling argument is you can look at your doorbell and right, you can view that camera. Right. Which is so now the cost of the home view also has to include a doorbell. And honestly, and we will get to the Apple Home Collection. Those up devices are very expensive. Yes Like way more and honestly, I'm going to get them.

26:41 I'm gonna take one for all the teams. I'm gonna get every Apple Home Collection device. If Steven buys them and when doesn't want them and sends them to me, I will also review them. Just to be clear. ~ But but the video doorbell I believe is three hundred dollars. And that is too expensive because Yeah, I mean Amazon will just drop a ring doorbell on your doorstep for you to install if you just like open the website.

27:06 They will give you Yeah, I'm sorry, it's one. it is two hundred and fifty dollars, but we'll get and we'll get to this in a second. I don't know if I'm crazy about the look of this. But like you know, there's only one design. It looks very much like the old school eyesight camera. But you can get the ACARA video doorbell, which is the one I have for ninety-nine dollars right now.

27:25 And you know that that experience will be good with this device you're saying. N yeah. The video doorbell? Yeah, absolutely. Because it's rock solid on my Apple TV. Like if there's an Apple TV on and someone rings the video doorbell, a hundred percent of the time the video preview comes up and if it recognizes the face, it tells me who's there.

27:40 So in so in your briefings or whatever experience you've had so far exploring this, they've confirmed that if somebody rings your doorbell, it will instantly start streaming that video on the device? 'Cause that Yes. was not clear from anything I could find. It is that is exactly what happened and there's multiple clips from different creator videos showing that exactly.

28:02 Now obvious in the, you know, demo at this New York place or whatever, it's you know, canned, you know, it's a demo. Yeah, but so my question is so there are six users plus there's also just a generic not a user user that does that? Like that it's very confusing how all that works. Correct. But it's like but it's like Apple TV.

28:21 Like no matter what profile you're in in the Apple TV, if someone rings my doorbell, I see it on the Apple TV, no matter what. And so there are some devices that you will just get. And and this is the part that I have to get it in hand. Like can can I d have settings where whenever a person is detected on a camera besides the video doorbell, can I have that camera pop up automatically?

28:43 But In all in a lot of the videos, it does show just multiple camera views live. And the only other place you can do that, the home app, it's not great at it. Like I'll be honest. Like if you want it to have multiple camera feeds viewed simultaneously, the home app, even on your iPad, doesn't do that well. The best place is maybe your Apple TV-ish, but then you have to have an Apple TV on and you have to have a TV where you want it in order to see all these cameras.

29:09 Where on the home view, you can have these live camera views. And then someone rings the doorbell, it shows up. So I feel like that beneficial. And also, this little controller right here, when it comes to why not just an iPad, hey, I don't want to think about charging an iPad or having it plugged in nine, you know, 100% of the time. But also having home controls that are large like this, which would be accessible to any user, not just the six profiles you attach to it.

29:35 This can be any guest that walks up. It is a very clear, I can adjust the temperature, I can open a door, I can unlock a door, or I could turn on or off a light. Like these are the obvious no-brainer controls for the smart home that I've wanted for a long time. Like I have probably twelve of these home kit buttons around the house trying to do what the home view is doing.

29:56 Like I have like these little air versa things. But the problem is all these little home kit buttons, unless you're gonna like use a label maker and label every single button that every little thing does. normal people, like including my own family, like they don't know what this button does. And so to have a device on the wall or on the desk where it says, open the garage, turn like run this scene, having it that obvious and accessible, I think can be a a plus.

30:20 So can you choose what's on that screen? Yeah, it again there's there's been some unclear but you can customize your home screens and then whatever the lock screens they call it, like so you can have a modular face on the home view and then you can choose what devices are on it. Okay. This is my ultimate objection to this vice, Steven. I'm gonna just cut to the chase.

30:41 Okay, yeah, go ahead. I'm making some good points. You gotta give me at least some points. I'm making some some good points. I don't th I don't think this is okay, let me make let me let me give you this. Okay, correct, okay, okay. The the mental model for the home view, the reason I don't think it works is Apple's home underlying principle is that the user shouldn't think about it.

31:04 Okay, you don't know I know that all the accessories that I have in my house that that will interact with the Google system. And listen, I'm not like a Google stand here. I'm just saying that was the one that worked. Yeah, yeah, that was all you have, I also have yeah. some Echoes, we also have home pods, like Apple TVs everywhere, whatever.

31:19 But when it comes to the things that we wanted to do, which is we have some cameras, we have light switches, we also have switches for like the ~ Christmas tree. Anyway, so The mental model is that Home Hub Max is the place where everything is happening. Okay. It is the device and it used a controller in S thermostat until they deprecated that. So, right, which is stupid.

31:42 Right, right. They were like, Yeah, we know it still has a Wi-Fi sensor in it, but we're just not gonna make it work anymore. That's wild. Wild. It's like that's insane. Anyway, so yeah, I'm still salty about that. But it's very clear that that's what's happening. I just described the problem I had with my level lock, right, not that long ago, where Yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:58 I swapped out of home. Or Apple TV and it stopped working until I went in and did a bunch of stuff. The average person who I think this is designed for, which is the person who's just not going to think about it, this device is fine. It just won't work with anything they might already have. So now they have to be committed enough to buy a bunch of $300 devices or whatever.

32:17 And so some and but someone like you who has the Apple ecosystem, this device is not meant for you. And here's what I mean by that. So I walk up to this device and it shows some configuration of buttons or whatever. I I guess that's Yeah yeah. true. But it also wants to show me my personal information.

32:35 So like how do I Right. get from one to the other? Do I swipe up on this device? Do I start talking to this device? Do I do like it's Yeah, I understand. it is a it is trying to do a couple of things and it is trying to make it like transparent. Do I go to the home view when my level lock stops working to try to troubleshoot that? Like no, like really, like this No you don't. I know, I know.

32:53 This is the part that I don't think makes sense because it is meant for someone to not be thinking about it. But Home Kit is it's relatively reliable. Like I love the fact that on my desktop I have a wage that's just turn off the lights in here. But the reason they work is because they're Lutron. Right. Right. Right right, And I literally installed switches.

33:11 right. Yeah. And so I guess my thing is this device is actually not meant for you. Hear me out. It is not meant for you. But it is actually probably most useful for you. And I think that is the problem. I think it will be useful for my family also. Okay, let me rephrase that. It is most useful some it is not designed for someone who has a U in it, in a household that has a U in it, right? It is meant to be the entry Okay.

33:41 point to the home ecosystem because what Apple realizes is that the Apple TV is not the entry point to the home ecosystem and neither is the home pod, and it thought both of those were going to be it. But what what is awkward to your point is like this is the home view, but you cannot manage any home stuff in it.

33:58 Like you c but that is why you have to have an Apple Yes. You have to have an iPhone. It has to be connected to an iPhone. and that but that is why Apple released the entire Apple Home collection and for the first time partnered with ADT to help you install this stuff. Now, that is also a very niche crowd who will pay hundreds of dollars for the hardware.

34:20 And then presumably hundreds of dollars for installation. And also, like, I understand you got to partner with somebody, but my goodness, if ADT comes to install your wall-mounted home view, you 100% know you are going to get upselled on an ADT security system. And that kind of sucks. And I don't Yeah.

34:38 know if Apple can be like ADT. You can't sell anybody in security. Like, I don't think they can tell them that. So But no one is paying for ADT home security systems that's gonna stink. anymore. If you get a home view, you don't care about that. Like that's it's contradictory unless And so I I think this what's that?

34:51 you want an alarm on your front door. But do you know what's better than an alarm on your front door? A sticker that says you have an alarm on your front door? Just a sign. Absolutely. Yeah, I have beware of dog. Beware of dog. yes. And then they're both in cages, And you all you have is a snake. That's what I have. I have a snake and a rabbit, but I put a beware of dog side.

35:06 Yeah, yeah. They're both in cages. it doesn't matter. So I think the it is a the common s like people who are not already in the smart home world, I do agree that this is going to be a tough sell. Because if you if you don't already like if if you bought a house and you have a ring camera and no other smart home devices, this is gonna be a poor experience because your ring camera's not gonna show up and you're not gonna be able to control any smart home stuff and you're gonna be like, I just have a big timer and maybe a way to view recipes.

35:36 And so I understand like that will be complicated. But for the smart home nerds like me and all the YouTubers, I think their family will appreciate a device like this. Because no one in my house has ever run a smart home scene. They just have not. Because they don't know what words to say. They don't know they I don't know if they've ever opened the home app.

36:00 Like they've never run a a smart home scene. But if I have a seven-inch display on the wall that says movie night, someone will go up there and tap it. And the reason why I know if they know how to use it, they will use it. Like if they if you build it, they will come situation. I have A like 30 foot skylight c calendar.

36:20 I don't know how big that thing is. It's huge. But they use that all the time because they have a reason to use it. And it's very understandable and it has the calendar on there. And that is also another question is like those devices, the skylight and all the similar, you know, things that have like in apps for the iPad that have tried to hack this kind of home organization, the home view has to live in that space too.

36:45 And so if someone already has a skylight that has a clock that shows photos and videos, like it does all those cool things, again, if you don't already have the Apple home s ecosystem, it's gonna be a harder sell for that. So we'll see. But for me, I'm excited about it. Yeah, I get it. Someone needs But like the Google one we have, the other nice thing is it'll just play YouTube videos.

37:06 Will the home view play a YouTube video? Not without your phone. Okay, so the so this is the ~ I could yes, Well, let me say one more thing. I want you to get into that, but th the yeah, yeah. other piece of that was gonna be like I'm trying to decide. Would I replace that with this? Would I replace that Google thing?

37:21 That Google thing, that's what I'm gonna call from now on. Right. But you don't have a video doorbell in Apple Home. We don't have a video doorbell, period, because our doorbell So yeah. is perpendicular to our door, so it doesn't even face out. No, I mean for real, like that's just the way it was. They make angled brackets for the Akara one.

37:33 I'd have to I'd have to No, not doing that. I would literally have to move where my doorbell is. And I guess if I and here's the thing, if I buy a ring I can just pull the tape off and stick it there. Like that's the way ring is designed. Yeah. Now I so one other thing. Like I would love to get one of these for my mom because A, we could now FaceTime and she doesn't have to hold her phone.

37:53 Like that would actually be a win for people. Easily FaceTime, you don't have to hold your phone. She has two smart plugs in her house that she could use. And I would buy her a smart thermostat and then she could control it all from the home view. The one issue, and this is gonna be a lot of people, she has a video doorbell. It's an RLO, but it's a wireless one.

38:13 She doesn't have it, she didn't have a physical doorbell before, and we haven't run wires to it. I could hire an installer, I guess, but like that is a huge lift. And so there is like one Akara video doorbell that is battery powered that you could use with this. But again, we're back to a very, very narrow range. Like if you want this home view to be useful, you need one of these three video doorbells, and that's it. And none of those three are a ring, which is what you already have.

38:40 And so that that's the tough sell. Yeah. Get there. And I just feel like the biggest problem this there are two big problems. One is it does require you to be because the the the promise is like all of the home stuff is supposed to just all work with everything and we're just nowhere near that. That's just not the reality, right?

39:00 It didn't fix a single thing, Matter. It fixed everything, you didn't hear? Sure. Steven. And it's like this device, okay. Maybe it's a slightly better version of looking at recipes. I just that's never been a problem that I have. And I do cook, like don't k it's not like I don't cook, but I just like Yeah, yeah.

39:20 and I'm I cook a lot. I mean, I worked in restaurants, I like whatever. But I've never needed I gosh, I w because I could have just grabbed that Google thing and moved it if I s if I wanted a device like that. So that's not a thing that's worth $300 to me. Two. It is maybe good for what you described for looking at your videos.

39:41 I mean you're looking at your doorbell camera. But then obviously Yeah, yeah. you have to be in that particular space. Now if you had one on your desk there, Yeah. Yeah. great. But I don't think that's a three hundred dollar solution. Sure. And the cooking No, That's my thing. It just feels like it doesn't no, no, I get it. And the cooking thing, which I really, really want to use this for that recipe view, I I'm not gonna drill a hole in my island.

40:03 Right. And that's the only place it would be useful for cooking for Right. our setup. And so that is another big hurdle, like and even I again, back to that marketing video, Apple recognized right in the middle of the island in the kitchen is the ideal place for this thing. All you have to do is drill a hole and run electrical.

40:18 It's like That that's a big ask. I don't know, Yeah. I don't think so. I don't know, man. I don't know, man. ~ but the last thing and the w I did not realize we're gonna do forty-five minutes on the home view, but maybe maybe I did. I'm sorry. You did know this. This is I think I I did know this and it's valid. The one thing, two things, and then we'll we'll move on to all the the Apple TV four K, which is also crazy expensive.

40:36 One, I could not get ~ super clear answers on the multi-user feature with kids. Because this does require another Apple device that's an iPhone or iPad that has like unlocked and paired basically for you to have a profile on the home view. And when like my daughter, who's 10, it's like I could not get a clear answer if she could get like a profile on this thing. And it does not seem like you need an iPhone to do it.

41:09 It seems like if you have an iPad, that is enough to get a profile on the home view. But apparently there is some age gating for profiles that is unclear right now. And that is really unfortunate because this would be great for like a seven year old who maybe doesn't have an iPad yet, f of the five seven year olds who doesn't have an iPad in this country or whatever.

41:29 But like to have the little Snoopy face and be able to play music on it or whatever, or like tap the thing. So the age thing is unclear. Wait, so she couldn't just walk up and ask it to play music? So you I'm sorry. ~ you can use the guest features, which is like play music, ask Siri AI, general questions, but you couldn't have like your personal context on it, and you couldn't have like a customized like lock screen home screen.

41:55 Because the home screen and lock screen is gonna customized per profile. So when you walk up to it, you can see something different than when I walk up to it. And you better believe I'm gonna be testing how fast that thing switches. Does it work in the dark? Because it is not using a face ID, you know, dot matrix thing. This is just using the camera.

42:12 So if like if it's in the middle of the night and I walk up to this thing and it's dark, will it recognize me? We'll have to test. Well, and you know what I don't have set up on the Google device? It would do, but I don't have it do. I do not have my calendar on there. I do not have any of my per 'cause I don't w I have a phone.

42:27 Well I don't need to walk past something and have it suddenly be like, here's your calendar for today and everybody else in the room is like I mean, it's not like there's anything on my calendar, Although I but like will say one of my most requested shortcuts over the years is give me a morning routine shortcut that tells me my tasks, my events, and the weather for today.

42:44 Yeah, and the device you're holding in your hand, not the one that's on your kitchen counter. But people but people want to ask their home pods that and they just want their home pod to talk to them about it. So if if this thing and this is unclear, I don't know if it will do this, if you could ask Siri AI what's on my schedule for today, and you get both the audio and visual of here are your tasks, here's your events, maybe.

43:04 Yeah, and that but again, to be clear, that's different than broadcasting it. Like what the Google device does and what I think that this would do is like you walk up to it and you're looking at it and a notification for a message comes in and it just displays on that device because it is unlocked and recognized you.

43:17 I don't want that happening on a device. It's just in the room. Like, what if you have company over and you're sitting there waiting and your wife is at the store picking something up and she's really frustrated because you weren't clear about the thing she's supposed Ha ha ha ha. to get and she texts you and she's like, Answer me, robot or whate whatever. That's not how my Yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:33 wife it's like That's weird. I don't like it it that's different than asking a home pod, tell me what I have happening today, because you have said, Give me this information. I don't that's so I haven't turned any of that stuff on the Google device because it's just that's just weird to me. I mean, I'm sure you could turn all like messages off and calendar off, but and it would only show it to you if it unlocked with your face.

43:52 So Right. you would have to be looking at it for you to see your messages. And it even shows in that marketing video when like the other teenager tried to see her sister his sister's messages, it locked. Like it didn't that again, That quickly, really? I'm just saying the video has leaves a lot there's we will test. I know.

44:08 a lot there's a lot of s Apple Intelligence 2024 w WWD C happening in this video. Yeah, well we th again the video I think was not a good step. So we will get to that. ~ well last thing on the home view. This thing does not have an app store, so you can't download apps to it. It has built-in apps and I'm gonna link to Jason Snell Six Colors article.

44:30 This is a screenshot from Apple's website, but it has built in apps like you'll be able to watch primary tech on your home view. You'll be able to use the Apple Podcast app with just a little inside baseball. I actually got a message from Apple requesting new artwork. I got the same email. Yeah. And I got your reply.

44:45 Did you? yeah, yeah. You were you were CC on the Yeah, Yeah, yeah. yeah. So I already sent it to them. But they were asking for like a universal show art so it just you know looks good on all devices. I that email came out before the home view event, and I think it was in relation to this because this is a new screen size.

44:57 Hm. Yeah, 'cause it didn't really make sense on a phone what they were asking for. Correct. Correct. And so I think it was that. So, you know, podcasts and the ~ the other built-in apps that supposedly work right now are like Apple TV, news, books for audiobooks. Those you have to like beam from your phone.

45:15 And in some of the videos, like I'll link Gen Tui had a short, but in some of the videos, see look it just says open like recognition for the calendar. It shows the Apple TV app icon on the device, but no one like was able to open it and actually play something. So I'm unsure how that works. You might have to like airplay it.

45:37 But the feature of car play and this was a direct ~ this was a clear answer is that if there's a CarPlay app with audio or video entitlements, like Spotify, Overcast Overcast. Prime example, you'll be able to use the Overcast app from your phone on the home view. But it's not like you you won't see an overcast icon.

46:07 Well maybe you will. That's that's what's unclear. Maybe you'll see an overcast icon. But why would you do that? I ~ in the video and like a lot of the creators is like there's a lot of like beaming from your phone, like you just tap your phone to this thing and it sends something. So I don't know if on But why would you do that is what I'm saying.

46:21 YouTube. You have a video on your phone, you walk into the kitchen, you wanna put it on this thing and put your phone away. You could do that, maybe. But YouTube doesn't have the car the a CarPlay app yet, so I don't know if it works with YouTube. And right now it doesn't seem like it would. Or if you are again like the recipe thing, you beam to it. Overcast. You walk in from You got home from work, you're listening to a podcast and overcast, you tap your phone to the home view, and now it's playing on the home view.

46:48 If anyone starts playing podcasts on a speaker in my house that's not an AirPod, they are going to move out. That is just for that's just maybe but again, if I have one here in my studio, I don't know, we'll see. I I Yeah. I I guess again, I'm not suggesting that people couldn't manufacture ways to use this thing, but none of those feel like things that I I well, I should be clear. Yes, I know that people just listen to podcasts from their phone without AirPods. I just Yeah, yeah. Sure.

47:13 think it's a crime and I don't think that you should do that. Music is different, that's fine, Sure. Sure. but and again, maybe the speaker I I'll give Apple okay, the one thing I will give Apple the benefit of the doubt on is I'm sure it's an amazing speaker. Chris Welch said it sounded pretty good and it got louder than he expected, but he said it was like in between a home pod mini and a big home pod.

47:37 That's exactly what I would have expected and I would say that that's probably Yeah. a win. That's probably a win, because right now my family's playing music out of the home pod mini in the kitchen. Yeah, i if it's if it's as good or better than a home pod mini, So that will be an improvement. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's acceptable.

47:49 I'll give them that. Sorry. exactly. Yeah. All right, we still we still have to talk. No, it's good. We still have to talk about Apple TV, which is now $300. Home pod mini, the Apple Home Collection, we'll we'll have to do everything is a lightning round after this. Yeah, but we do have Everything is everything.

48:03 to get and can't be mean to anthropic, 'cause we have to talk about that. But we'll get to it. We have to talk about it. We'll get to all that. So before we do, we have to thank our sponsors of this incredible episode. The first one, new sponsor ramp, which is something that I've used personally back in back in my work days.

48:17 I've used ramp you said you have a ramp card, is that right? We didn't even play in this. Yeah. Yeah, well there you go. like th I literally have one of those things the person's holding. I don't have my wallet with me at the moment so I can't show it, but yeah, I have one. Well, there you go. The we've both personally used RAMP.

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49:45 Go to ramp.com slash primary and get $250 off. That's ramp.com slash primary. Or thanks to ramp. For sponsoring this episode and our friends at SERP API. I love that they sponsor because I have personally used SERP API for shortcuts. It is great for shortcuts. But SERP API, it is a web search API that gives developers real-time, structured access to search engine results.

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52:42 Just go there, just see this really cool website and like scroll your mouse over the homepage. That's originhq.com slash primary technology. And our thanks to Origin for sponsoring this episode. All right. We're gonna have to do a lightning round for all the things. Apple TV 4K, we finally got a fourth gen version.

52:58 It is $300. It's too it's too expensive. It's too expensive. Yeah, I mean it's bananas. Also, It's button. I know why they did this, but Why do they do this, Jason? your Apple T V should not be listening for you to talk to Siri. Okay, so the big feature is it has a built-in long-range microphone. Far field microphone, Far field microphones, yes.

53:18 thank you. So you can yeah, shout, hey dingus to your Apple TV. Now, a couple things because during the announcements and press releases, it seemed like Siri AI was only coming to the new one, and maybe the new remote with a speaker was only the new one. Second and third gen Apple TV 4Ks. So if you bought an Apple TV in the last four years.

53:39 You're getting Siri AI in TV OS twenty seven dot two. So Siri AI is even coming to the older Apple TVs. And if you want a remote, which we have you have been setting f since we started this podcast, you you opened our very first episode by saying Apple TV remote should have a speaker. I'm pretty sure that's accurate.

53:56 So that you could find it. So you can find it. Well now it finally does. And it has precision find my, which I've been asking for for years. Yes, it comes with the new Apple TV 4K for $300, or you could just buy the remote for 60 bucks. And that is a thing. And it works. Okay, I am going to buy three of those.

54:09 Yes. Yeah, you could buy those. I'm sold. I don't have to have a weird AirTag case on my Apple TV remote anymore. And it's compatible all the way back to the Apple TV HD. So you do not need to buy a brand new Apple TV for the new remote. And People are disappointed at the updates to Apple TV because one, it has HDMI 2.1, which is new, but it has no 4K 120 for gaming or for just higher frame rates.

54:36 And there's no pass-through audio. So Apple TV right now and this new model seems to decode audio internally rather than passing the raw bit rates, bit streams to like your receiver for Dolby Atmos and all that. And that decoding Home theater nerds don't like that. They just like just pass the raw audio so it can play through my home theater.

54:59 And it does not have that feature. Now, ~ Caleb, I forget his last name. he was at I forget where it was at but he had a video, I'll link it down in the show notes. And he talked about this is something Apple could add in software. And this has happened in the past where Apple released an Apple TV and then shipped an update that enabled one of these home theater features.

55:22 So that pass through audio could be coming, but it's not advertised and Apple has not said it's coming. So yes. Steven, I think I would like to start a conspiracy. Well, don't look, but guess. ~ let's do it. Okay, I'm not gonna look. Okay. What processor is in the Apple TV 4K second gen? Apple T V four K second gen. I think I actually looked all this up yesterday and I have it in the notes to talk about.

55:49 Isn't it the A thirteen bionic? What is it? A tw Okay. Nope. A twelve Bionic. So explain something to me, Okay, yes. Yeah Steven. I yes, yes. I'm excited for this, yes. Why doesn't the base iPad get Apple Intelligence? Why doesn't my Apple Okay, okay. my my iPad mini get Apple Intelligence? Why doesn't Here's the iPhone 14 Pro get Apple Intelligence?

56:08 Listen, this I'm so glad you said that. It was a perfect segue because I I had this, Why? I don't understand. I had this moment yesterday. I had this moment yesterday. So the HomePod Mini 2 was also announced. $150. It's getting Siri AI in the future. In the future. Some point in the future. Future update. But what's interesting is the HomePod 2, the big home pod, it is unclear whether it's getting Siri AI.

56:32 But the Apple TV second and third gen 4K is getting Siri AI. Now just just just bear with me for a second here, okay? We're going on a We're going on a trip. little trip, okay? The S the Home Pod 2 is powered by the S7 chip. That was the newer second generation big home pod. It is ~ based on the S7 chip, and the S7 is actually based on the A13 Bionic. And that chip.

57:07 The A13 and the A12, like you're saying, the A12 gets Siri AI in that old Apple TV. Apple TV 4K second gen is getting Siri AI in TV OS 27.2 and it has the A12. Okay? The A12 Bionic can apparently do Siri AI. But it is unclear whether the HomePod 2, which has a newer generation chip, whether or not that's going to get Siri AI.

57:33 And like you said, all those iPads. Including like the brand new base model iPad, which still Which yeah. does not have Siri AI, like all of them should be able to run Siri AI. Now, here's to add to this conspiracy in order to use Siri AI on the Apple TVs, including the second and third gen 4K, you have to have an iPhone with Apple Intelligence on it. Which doesn't make any sense unless.

58:04 And this has not been said by Apple anywhere. I wonder if processing for Siri AI is happening on another device and they are just shipping the answers to the Apple TV. I don't know if that's true, but in the footnote of the Apple TV announcement page, that's what it talks about. And I'm going to try and get down to the footnote, but it says it requires an iPhone.

58:33 Such and such and newer. Okay, here it is. It says Access to Siri AI is also available on the Apple TV 4K second generation and later. And it says Siri AI is available in beta 27.2 and requires the owner of the home in the home app to have an Apple intelligence enabled iPhone or iPad running the latest software version and have Siri AI turned on and set to a supported language.

59:04 Like why? Because you can set up an Apple TV without an iPhone. Yeah. You don't have to even own an iPhone, anyone in your house, and you can use an Apple T V. There are one thousand conference rooms across the US that has an Apple Yes. Literally TV that was just set up by itself without an iPhone. every conference room in America has an Apple TV.

59:20 But it seems like if you didn't like if that Apple TV in the conference room is not connected to an iCloud account where the owner of the home has Siri AI, will you be able to use Siri AI on that conference room TV? Also if the conference room table is plugged in and the owner of the home is in Barbados, will it work?

59:39 That, bad, yeah, like is it that's what I'm saying. And so I it is unclear is it like the going Siri AI being on that old Apple TV, the A twelve Bionic, is it is it running on the device? Is it running on your iPhone? Is it running on the Apple TV? Is it running on your iPhone or iPad? And if the owner is not home, can you use Siri AI?

1:00:00 Uncle. Well, and the answer to that is I can use Siri AI on my Ultra Two, but obviously it's doing it on my phone. Sometimes if you ask your Apple watch a no, Okay, if I ask it to start a timer, yes, it does it by itself. no, no, if you ask it a general knowledge question, the Siri AI on your watch may just reach out to the internet and give you that answer.

1:00:21 On my Ultra Two? Well, I don't know about the ultra two. That's what I'm saying. I can use Siri AI on my Ultra 2, I see, I see, I see, I see, I see, but really it just means that it has a Bluetooth connection to my phone, I see. Those big air quotes. Right. which by the way it also had yesterday and the day before they released all this.

1:00:37 Like so it that's Right. Yeah. another thing where I do kind of feel like Apple is being intentionally obtuse about what's actually happening so that they can say we've brought this to more products. Because the obvious question is if the if a device with the A twelve bionic can run Apple intelligence or Yes.

1:00:55 Siri intelligence or whatever the heck we're calling it right now. Why on earth can't my can't an iPhone fourteen Pro run? Yeah. And that is sticky. That is weird. And it's it's awkward. Because and a lot of people on social media, when they saw the three hundred dollar price tag on the Apple TV, it's like, well, my current Apple TV four K is gonna get Siri AI and I can just get a new remote for sixty bucks.

1:01:18 Why am I upgrading? And I think that's a valid question. I don't know. Well, yeah, I mean, the only the only scenario where it makes sense makes no sense, which Ha ha. is that the new one has a hundred and twenty eight gigs of storage, which is clearly because that's just what's on the system on a chip for the A nineteen or whatever the heck it is.

1:01:36 Right. Right, right. Which by the way, the Apple T V gets a better processor than the home view, just for whatever that's worth. I know yes, yes, that is true. Not really that big of a deal. Right. That's why they're the same exact price, which is kind of mind blowing. I know you want to say something about that, Yeah. No, no, no. I mean that is just but ~ let me just awkward.

1:01:53 But I'm sure that it's because the A also the Apple T V has a better processor than the MacBook Neo. Just to be clear. Okay. Sure. But also you still can't do anything useful besides stream video and watch your camera. I don't know. It's it it's is it that the Apple thinks that this is like a place where you're gonna play video games? Well, 120 frames would have been a better option there, right? Like in 128 Yeah.

1:02:15 gigs of storage is fine, but it doesn't it has an A nineteen and it doesn't have like the GPU processing you need for I don't know, whatever. For how long we had to wait for a new Apple T V four K, it's a little disappointing. I'll be real. It should have a it should have an five Max in it. It should I mean, they probably have fours. Like Tim Cook is still finding fours in his shoes in the morning.

1:02:35 He could put an three pro they could put an three pro in this thing. Just put some GPU cores Just sh shove it in there. Just do it. Yeah. in this thing. Anyway, so that's it's been a little unfortunate. And the there's also one other feature I wanted to point out. Apple's advertising that you can use a pair of home pod mini twos as your Mac audio speakers. And this is different than AirPlay.

1:02:54 Because with AirPlay, you can play music, you can play podcasts, but you don't get like system sounds. Like if you get a notification, the notification sound doesn't ding because the home pods aren't set as like the audio output. For your Mac. It is just airplane. But this is actual set home pods as your audio output.

1:03:12 This is the Home Pod Mini 2. And apparently, the large Home Pod 2, which I've had a pair sitting on my desk here since they came out, whatever, 13 years ago. I will be able to use these as my Mac speakers. But the one requirement is Wi Fi 6E. Something about Wi Fi 6E is enabling this lower latency connection.

1:03:34 So it can act as your computer speakers and not be super janky, I guess. I'm gonna link this Apple Insider article listing what computers this works with, and but the cutoff is Wi-Fi 6E. So this requires the big home pod twos, or which is the 2023 version, or the new home pod mini two, and a Mac with Wi-Fi 6E and newer.

1:03:57 I mean honestly that is the best thing they announced. Is that it is. I mean, I'm no, ~ Honestly, I will finally be able to use them. Like it's pretty good. I'm being completely serious that that is I mean, it's i buying a pair of home pod mini twos to do that is three hundred bucks, which is what you would spend for a mediocre pair of like, you know, whatever K whatever the K twos or whatever anyway.

1:04:18 Yeah, yeah, the kef. Kef whatever it's. So like but whatever, like so that's fine. Yeah. Like that's a good s that's a reasonable solution. If you have a studio display, personally I don't think that the speakers in the new the the I don't think that the home pod mini speaker which has not No. changed, if I understand. It's the same speaker.

1:04:35 I all the creators said they get better sound, but I don't know if that's something that Apple told them to say. Like I don't know if that was like part of the briefing or if it actually I don't know if the speakers have changed. Did they have original home pod minis there to compare? Well no. 'Cause I don't understand how any of these people could possibly have told you that they sound better.

1:04:49 That is they just Apple has said they sound better, In the perfectly but I don't think acoustically treated townhouse in Manhattan, they sounded better. Okay. But it but just Yes, exactly. whatever. I don't buy that. I would argue for what most people are doing on their computer, the studio display speakers are probably close enough to on par with the home pod minis that it's that again, three hundred bucks. I don't know.

1:05:11 But I will say that is the best feature they introduce because it is always confusing to me, Steven, if I start playing something in Apple Music and I'm like, Right, right, right. where do I control the volume? Yeah. One Do I do it in Apple Music? Do I do it up here in the central control? And if you're doing it in Spotify, it's even worse. Because if I hit the volume control on my computer keyboard, Yeah, it doesn't.

1:05:26 nothing happens in Spotify. When I've had a pair of the large home pods sitting on my desk and have used them maybe a handful of time since I got because if I try to use it with Final Cut, it's so janky because Yeah. it will send the audio from Final Cut, but when I press the spacebar to press play, I have to wait three seconds. It connects, and then the audio plays and it's like delayed.

1:05:46 Yeah. Yeah. So I will see if that actually fixes it. I wish the home pods just had a line in. They should have just released a home pot. This would have been This would have changed the entire tenor of the announcement. It said home pod three, big home pod, maybe better speakers, faster processor, line in. If it had a line in port, everybody would have loved it.

1:06:08 That's all I'm saying. I would have used. Okay. Wow. Well, go ahead. Nope, that's it. I just that was the best thing they announced. The Apple Home Collection, we will these aren't coming till December, maybe January. It was unclear. It's like they'll be available at. December, maybe to order but not deliver in January until January.

1:06:25 I'm curious to try all these. ~ all the rumored images that PDFU and Mark German talked about, like that is the things that they announced. this is LG and Schneider. I think the thermostats look pretty good. The smart lock, mm, I don't know. You know, the camera's very eyesight coded, the especially the indoor one.

1:06:46 But the biggest selling feature on these devices is you don't need a third-party app to use them. And that for someone who has set up a lot of smart home accessories, that is a huge win. Because even all the Accara stuff, which I love, if you like with the video doorbell, if you buy the Accara video doorbell and you set it up, you can set it up in the home app and never touch the Accara app.

1:07:11 You don't even have to have it downloaded and you can set it up. But if you want to turn off the feature where when someone rings the doorbell, it literally calls your phone from the app like it's a video call. You have to download the Accara app to turn that feature off. And there's weird things like when I install an Accara smart lock, like the ultra wideband U400 version, if you want it to stop talking to you when you unlock the door, you have to go to the Accara app to change that one setting.

1:07:41 And so the fact that these devices in the Apple Home Collection do not require another account created. Again, this goes to hopefully more people will use these things and that makes home view more useful. That's probably Apple's thinking. I am thankful for that setup, but all these devices are very expensive.

1:07:58 I think their design is to be determined. We'll have to try it. The floodlight, the outdoor floodlight is $400, Jason. $400. The E the Eve outdoor camera floodlight, which I have, is half that price on Amazon right now. So these have to they better be amazing. But we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. They look fine.

1:08:19 I mean they they look all right, but and here is the one thing that I wish I could be more excited about this. I don't like the way the lock looks at all, by the way. But that's neither here nor there. I don't like that either yet. But here's the one thing that I wish I could be really excited about, which is that like we have I think I even was texting you about this because I was trying this is a long time ago about like which one I should buy.

1:08:39 ~ but when we bought some floodlights, I wanted to buy floodlight bulbs for our front porch. I had to replace them anyway. Like, what if I buy some smart ones? I don't remember what they are now. Because they don't work anymore in home kit. Like they just stopped working at one point. And I don't have Yeah.

1:08:53 the tenacity to care because they still work if I flip the switch. But it was really nice that Yeah, they work with the switch. Yeah. I could that I had like an automation that's turned them on. And the beautiful thing about HomeKit is I could like turn them on three hours before sunset and leave them on until one and it's till it changes every day, like or roughly it Right.

1:09:11 adjusts. But then they just stop working. Yeah. Because who knows if it's because like I have to update the app on my phone, but why does that matter if it's running through HomeKit? And it's like, well, you got a new phone and then I swapped out an Apple T V and suddenly my lights don't work. Nobody wants Yeah.

1:09:24 to deal with that. Outdoor stuff is kind of a pain because one, everybody's Wi-Fi network is gonna be not great outside. But like my Eve outdoor camera, it is spotty connection because it is really far away from the house. And so though it's like right on the edge of the Wi-Fi connectivity. So that is to Apple's credit, this new Apple Home collection, like the outdoor floodlight camera, it has thread.

1:09:51 So hopefully that thread connectivity helps with the distance. If you have an outdoor camera that's far away. And like with your lights, again, I I really avoid smart bulbs at all costs because they I feel like they do what happen you. They just stop working eventually. ~ but my Eve outdoor camera, who have that I've had up for four years, is solid. And my car cameras that are like plugged in, they're great. So hopefully the fact that it has thread and Wi-Fi 2.4 and 5 gigahigahertz spectrum.

1:10:19 Hopefully that's good. But again, $400, this thing better be amazing. It does have color night view, which is cool. But anyway, we'll see. All right. We have to lightning round it, but we're probably gonna get held up by the anthropic. I don't know, but I wanna hear I wanna hear it. I just want to mention iPhone Duo pre-orders open tomorrow as you listen to this.

1:10:38 And apparently, ~ if you damage your iPhone duo, it might cost you like $1,500 for for other damage. like if you just completely break it, I guess. So hey, if you get an iPhone Duo, Apple Care one family. It's great, it's a great plan. And ~ maybe just get Apple Care on this. But did you pre pre order your iPhone Duo?

1:11:00 paying for one of those things. I didn't You didn't pre pre order iPhone Duo? pre-pre-order. I'm not gonna pre-order. I'm not gonna order one. Steven. No? Okay. I pre pre ordered and I will be pre ordering. And it's gonna be a bloodbath, I think, with the supply constraints, so we'll see. There's no well I mean, I would love to review it.

1:11:16 Apple friends, I would love to to to to look take a look at one of these things. ~ but I don't I don't I'm I have a I don't know. I would use it on a plane, however. We'll see. We'll see. Wow. Not Vision Pro, but you'll use iPhone Duo on a plane. I would use an iPhone too. I'm sure you would. All right. Last week, Anthropic said, Hey, you can't talk mean to Claude anymore.

1:11:40 It's just it's against our policy. So this is their 2026 usage policy update. And a little farther down it said addressing abusive behavior toward our models. And said we've added a prohibition on sustained and needless Abusive or cruel behavior toward our models. It does not apply to common versions of user frustration, pushback, dark creative themes, or model testing and research.

1:12:08 So, like, are certain expletives okay, but others not? If you like, I don't know. This was very strange. One, it anthropomorphized anthropomorphizes Claude a little too much, I think. I don't know. You had you had a whole Just one. That's it. That's the thing. That's the problem. Just to be clear. Okay.

1:12:27 Okay. You wrote an article about it, you tell me about it. Let's be clear. This, by the way, is the first time I've had to turn off replies on a threads post because it got ex absolutely crazy out there. So Really? can we just be clear? The two things can be true at the same time, which is one, Yes, yes.

1:12:45 you should not be in a whole period. Whether it's to a robot or to a person or to anything. Listen, I like and You should subscribe to that. Two thumbs. You should just not that as a general rule, the way you live your life, no one should think, gosh, that guy is a real whatever, okay? That's just I feel like you should not be, quote, cruel to garbage cans, to dogs, to children, to your coworkers, Period. Don't be crazy.

1:13:11 to your spouse, like whatever. But here's the problem. Cruelty is the infliction of pain or suffering on something. Now, animals can experience cruelty because they can feel pain and they can absolutely suffer. Flies, I don't really care, but you could be cruel to a fly by plucking its wings off when you're a child, Sure.

1:13:33 right? You shouldn't do that. I just don't think you should do those things. Computers, not capable of pain or suffering. But the number so the first thing is you should just not be a jerk. Or whatever, or intend to inflict cruelty on anything. That's Yes. just a common rule we should all live by. Nothing I'm about Yes. Don't be cruel.

1:13:53 to say is an endorsement of cruelty. I just want to be super clear about that. Yeah, I think so I think it's clear, Okay. yes. ~ robots can't experience cruelty. Claude cannot experience pain or suffering. And the number of people out there in the world that are like, you cannot definitively say that, you just don't know. Yeah, I know.

1:14:07 It's software running Were those on a computer. wait, wait, were those the kinds of replies you were getting? People try Over five hundred no, I got over s eight hundred and sixty six replies to that post. I had to t finally turn it off because I'm like, This is too much of my life. But what was the general pushback? It's like yes it can.

1:14:20 Well, okay, there was two pieces of pushback. One is, are you advocating teaching our children to be cruel? And I think I've explained no. I'd like to be very clear, no. No no No My general response to everyone was, I don't disagree that being a jerk is bad form, but it has nothing to do with anthropic or its models.

1:14:37 And then the other one is like, well, they don't know. What if five years from now they discover that these things are more abusive because they experience pain and suffering in their training and stuff. I'm like, no, that's not how it works. Also, by the way, just as a pro tip for all of our listeners, Yes.

1:14:51 if you use Claud or ChatGPT or Grok or any of those things, immediately, if you have not already done this, go in and turn off the feature that allows them to use your conversations for training. Everyone should have that turned off. No one should be letting your conversations be used for training. You can just turn that off.

1:15:06 Because people are well, maybe they just don't want you to be cruel to the models because then it teaches the models to be cruel. They should not be using your conversations for training data. Everyone should go and turn that off a hundred percent immediately, okay? Because those are your private conversations, right? You don't need that stuff going into the model regardless.

1:15:23 But that's not how training works, right? That's not and yes, I don't think we want them to but that's a product problem, not a moral problem. And the argument Anthropic is making A lot of people wanted to nitpick. I don't see them saying that Claude has feelings. Well, they use the word cruelty and they use the word abusive.

1:15:40And think about it like this if I take a baseball bat to my garbage can

1:15:44 and I just beat the whatever out of it, is that being cruel to the garbage can? No, because it can't experience No. pain and suffering no matter how many times you kick it. Now, again, doesn't mean you should do that. St if Right, right, right, one of my children was doing that. We would have a conversation and we would sit down and we would talk about do you need therapy? Do you need like like there's a lot of things.

1:16:03 Yeah. You you as the person might have lost control and flown off the handle, but you weren't being cruel to the garbage can. You are not being cruel because it being cruel requires the ability to experience pain and suffering. And that's not just so you can be violent, you can be a bully, you can be all those things, like you can be verbally like condescending towards Claude and that but that is not the same thing as being cruel because it can't experience pain and suffering.

1:16:25 Right, right, right. Yeah. But so my take, the whole reason I wrote that article was the fact that Anthropic thinks that you can be Yeah. cruel to its models is a way bigger concern. Than any of these other things. And and a lot of people wanted to nitpick that this particular policy update doesn't say all those things. That's kind of true.

1:16:47 But if you've read Anthropic's Constitution for Claude, a hundred percent they think it has feelings and they think that Yeah. Yeah. it might be conscious. They just don't really know. They do believe that it is, they just aren't quite willing to say it yet. And I am telling you, I understand I'm not an AI researcher.

1:17:01 This is not a complicated thing, Steven. Software is not conscious. No, it's it's not. Just because it can tell you use words that describe feelings doesn't mean that it has feelings. Just because it seems Right. Yeah. because they require an input in order to do anything. They don't exist And I think that's until you type in a prompt.

1:17:19 this what this is what caused some of the issues with ChatGPT and young people, where I think when you Yeah, AI psychosis. yeah, when you don't have the understanding that while it might express a lot of feelings and might even be really good at validating and identifying your human feelings, that is not the same as it experiencing feelings itself because it is a computer.

1:17:44 And so and that caused, you know, tragic events. Because teenagers listened to Chat GPT at the time and hurt themselves. And so yeah, I think it is I maybe d I don't know if dangerous is as strong a word, but it is not a good idea to continue anthropomorphizing these things. No, and we do that casually because it's language.

1:18:05 And language is a thing that we associate with people, right? We humans, Right. but people as a general term, right? People. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we think of anything that has language capabilities in that way as people or a person, not necessarily as a human, but we interact with them accordingly.

1:18:21 And so then it's we make the leap like, it must also like I joke the at the beginning I think this was in the pre-show about how Claude is annoying to me. I use it for real tough work, but I don't like having casual interactions with it where I might just ask it questions because I hate the way that it responds.

1:18:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's also just software. I probably could go through the effort of giving it a Claude.md file that says please don't be annoying and all these kinds of things and that's whatever, Yeah, yeah, yeah. that's fine. But I also know that it's not actually a jerk. It's just it's easier Right, right, right.

1:18:51 for me to just ask my question somewhere else than going through the rigmarole of trying to condition this thing accordingly. I was just I was just really tempted to make an analogy of if Claude was a coworker and I was gonna say, you know, it's like the really smart coworker that I would go to to ask for help but I would not invite to the baseball game on Saturday.

1:19:10 Like I know we had this conversation. W we have this conversation though. Claude is the friend who is so much smarter than you and as a result can be really helpful, but insists on making sure you know they are so much smarter than you. Right. But all all I I was debating whether to even say the analogy because that in itself is anthropomorphizing the models.

1:19:26 A hundred percent. You're absolutely right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's a fair point. But but we're just using it in order to try to find again, try to find language that we can use to describe an experience that we're having. But you and I, Right. I'm pretty sure are both clear. Cloud is not conscious. It will not ever be clo conscious.

1:19:42 It may destroy humanity. I don't know, but it won't be because it has feelings. It'll just be because Right. whatever, it tries to make too many paper clips or something, right? And that's how that's that's the one thing all of the sci fi AI movies kind of get right. It's that the AI, it's not that it feels something, it's that it reasons on a technical level, humans are a danger to themselves and so I have to put all in cages.

1:20:06 Or right, it doesn't have right, Yeah, it's that it doesn't have that spark of life and that humanity, right? Right. and it doesn't have empathy and it doesn't have feelings, which are kind of key to s like decisions we make as human beings. Yes. And again, you should Especially in relation to other humans.

1:20:20 not be, I don't think you should cuss out Claude. I don't think you should taunt it. I don't think you should do any of those things as a human behavior towards a robot, because honestly, I think there are better ways to deal with whatever it is that's happening. But I think it should be deeply concerning to us that the people who are making what will probably turn out to be the most important, certainly the most important technology of our of our generation, right?

1:20:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deeply believe that this thing could have feelings and might be conscious. That is a an astronomical problem and that they are they are they are reinforcing in human beings Right. that the way we treat this software. Could you just imagine if Satya and Adela was like, you can't type mean things in Microsoft Word?

1:21:07 We will ban I'd like to you if you cuss out Microsoft Word. Listen, I cut I would be I do it all the time. Which people do every day People do it every day Every time somebody sends me an Excel spreadsheet, I'm like Flips the table. It's like I think Ben Thompson made this analogy. If you are nailing if you're hammering a nail and you accidentally hit your thumb, you might say a bad word. And you might even throw that hammer across the workshop.

1:21:31 Done it a bunch of times. And it is like Anthropicus saying, after you threw that hammer across the room, a little chat bubble popped up on your screen from the hammer. Hey man. That didn't feel good. And it's like, no, we we all understand the hammer has zero feelings and zero actual thoughts. And Claude and all these models are closer to the hammer than a person.

1:21:54 And that doesn't make sense. They're They are just a tool. They're just a tool. just a tool. And that doesn't make sense to a lot of our human minds because as you chat with these things, it's like, man, this thing talks like a human. But you have to remember, it is closer to a hammer than it is a human.

1:22:08 Much closer. That's all. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean the number of times I've wanted to do that with my iPhone, the difference is the hammer I know will still work afterward and my iPhone Right. Right. Right. I paid it eleven hundred dollars for, so I'm not going to throw it across the room. Right.

1:22:19 But it's not because I'm worried it has feelings. Okay. Right. And you know, like we I don't know. anyway, that's I was I'm Please clip all of this and just post it everywhere because I can take it. But listen, the number of people who genuinely believe I know, it's bad. in also, okay, the last thing I'll say about this.

1:22:37 I don't think that it's an unreasonable thing for anthropic to be like, we just don't think it's a good idea for people to be whatever. Sure. However, why does anthropic care unless they think that their thing has feelings? Because It should not matter to anyone who's making these things how they're like again, there are parameters. I was gonna say how they're being used.

1:22:59 That's absolutely not true. There are guidelines. They don't want them being used to commit illegal acts, Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. right? We don't want them to generate content that would be illegal or No, there's guidelines, yeah. whatever. That's fine. So I I think anthropic is well within its rights to put that they make a product, they're allowed to say like terms of use or whatever.

1:23:15 Like that's fine. Right, right, But I think it's a big problem that they are framing it in this way. Yeah, yeah, agreed. Okay. Actual lightning round. No, no, no. That was that was good. See, I did pretty good. You gotta give me credit. That was Okay, No, the part I'm clipping is when you said you are absolutely right.

1:23:29 I'm clipping that I'm making it my ringtone. do that. You can post that it's from now on, every clip where Steven makes a point is just gonna be followed by a clip of me saying you were right. Just do it, That's I'm just gonna cut the same thing every time. it's fine. Light ~ lightning route. Apparently an open AI employee had a recording device in the open AI offices and might have stolen some data and also might have given it to Apple. Anyway, that is a you know, good.

1:23:53 I just want to say one thing about this post. You posted the their Twitter their or w post on X or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And the second sentence is my favorite thing about this. It says we used our models to understand the device and where did it come from, a din identifying that a specific employee.

1:24:05 I'm like, don't you have like surveillance cameras? Couldn't a guy just look at the camera and be like, it was him. It was Joe. He walked in there, he had it wrapped in a towel, he hit it under the table. You do it. Like we used our models to understand. It's like everything for these people is AI. That is yeah, that is true. And so this also goes like the whole court case of Apple versus OpenAI and how employees, ex Apple employees brought trade secrets to OpenAI.

1:24:29 This is kind of now muddying the waters because maybe open AI people brought stuff to Apple. So anyway, we'll we'll see. We'll see what happens there. Meta, they released new models, including Wonderful. That's the name of the model. Wonderful New A models. Can I say though, Jason? We don't have time to get into this.

1:24:48 I've been using Muse for some specific tasks on my phone and it can be pretty useful. And I will just say I listened to the most recent episode of Mac Power Users, and I was super thankful that David Sparks wasn't like your your other co-host is a total rube. I really appreciated that when you guys had a conversation No, no. Sure.

1:25:05 about it. I was waiting for the moment where he's like, You know he's a moron, right? But he didn't say that. I appreciated it. And even He did not? No, he did not, he did not. So that c like ~ there was an episode of App Stories recently, I think it was, where John Voorhees and Vitici were talking about it.

1:25:18 Vitichi's like, I like Jason. But But there's some questions here about what actually happened. And I agree. And I am still trying to get to the bottom of those questions. I just want our listeners to know. Okay, so yeah, we'll hopefully we'll have a follow up one day that's an actual follow-up, with the whole Muse messages thing.

1:25:33 Yes. But tell David thank you. Go All right, all right, we'll tell the thing. Gemini for Argon is officially out there for everyone to use. Supposedly Argon is great. And I think bottom line is the AI race is back on. You know, it felt like Anthropic was in the lead for a long time. Now ChatGPT Astra's out there and everybody says that's in the lead and now Gemini for Argon. So hey, we're still in the AI arms race.

1:25:55 It's still happening. I don't I don't use a okay, we don't have time for it. No, I don't use Gemini. I don't use Gemini. Yeah. And it's a stupid name. Don't name your don't name your cutting edge tech ~ products after inert gases. Don't call it a gas. Don't call it a gas. I one that doesn't literally interact with anything else in the world.

1:26:13 Exactly. Yeah, don't do that. YouTube is finally putting AI labels on AI songs in YouTube music. So following along with Spotify. Spotify has started doing that months ago. And we're gonna talk about the vibe-coded Adobe suite, I think, in the bonus episode. Because I want to talk about vibe-coded apps in general.

1:26:30 Love it. But you gotta admit that was a pretty good title. So we will Jiz. Come on. It's a great title. It turns out the only thing people like less than AI is paying for Adobe. That is a perfect Yes. that is a perfect headline. We're gonna talk about that and also the people trying to PS the entire PS port the entire PS5 library to Linux and Windows.

1:26:46 We'll talk about that. Was it on the verge cast where they like, Maybe the end state of all this is that we get CTA six on the on the Apple TV? GTA 6 on the home view. And unfortunately Netflix is laying off a bunch of employees. Not may they didn't say it was like related to AI, but you know, the streaming wars are on in full heat too.

1:27:07 Skydance, Netflix. We'll see what happens there. Let's jump to personal tech because personal tech is local LLMs, Let's do it. What's our personal tech topic here? Okay. Local. Great. I'm ready. Jason. Because I'm ready for it. I've been on a tear, as you might have known, of just shipping apps. Just You could just go to beardfm.app.

1:27:23 I I d I did want to have a conversation about this at some point with you. This is this is the bonus episode. I do This is the bonus episode. feel like w you and I need to sit down and have coffee and I need to be like, Steven, just for a moment. Yes. You're being abusive to Claude and I feel like you should just stop making apps.

1:27:40 Listen, Claude is working on my behalf, but one of the things I s wanted to stop doing was giving Anthropic so much money because I pay for Claude Max, which is what I use for all the vibe coding stuff, but I was paying for the Anthropic API for use in all my shortcuts. Because I have a lot of shortcuts.

1:27:59 Like when I process the show notes f after this episode, I have a long shortcut that gets all the links, formats it in various waves. Ways gives me some title and description ideas for the episode. And I had a bunch of shortcut actions that pinged the anthropic API for different whatever formatting options.

1:28:18 And I was getting, I kid you not, Jason, probably every day I was getting a clawed API refill re email receipt for like 15 bucks. Because I had it so the API would refill ever like whenever it dropped below twenty dollars of credits and it would just put another $15 on there. Now, so I wanted that to stop. I didn't I that needed to stop.

1:28:43 Yeah, I don't even okay. We need to talk about why that was happening, but okay, carry on. Well well, I'll tell you why in a second. So what the first thing I did was I I'm like, all right, I'm going to explore local LLMs that are free and I can just run on my Mac and figure out how to plug that into shortcuts.

1:28:57 So I went to platform.claw.com and I turned off that API key. I was like, I don't even want the chance of spending another dime on this. So the API key is turned off. And what I realized, so I downloaded LM Studio. And if you're not familiar, LM Studio is A free application that you can download that then has access to lots of open source models, open weight models, Open weight models. Yeah. Yes, but that are free to use, like correct.

1:29:28 zero cost because you download these models. And so I will put a link to LM Studio. They have two apps now. There's like LM Studio Bionic, which is for agent stuff, and then the you you do use that all the time? Which I use all the time, just to be clear. Yep, that's what I use on the Mac Mini. Okay, well we'll all right. I want to hear about that in a second.

1:29:46 I didn't want to do agent stuff on my Mac Studio, my production Sure. machine. So I just downloaded LM Studio regular, non-bionic. Just whatever. And then I it's it seems like a complicated app, but I just asked Claude how to use it and he was honest about it. And so I downloaded a Quinn model. I asked Siri AI, because I thought Claude and OpenAI would be biased about what models they told me to use.

1:30:13 So I asked Siri AI what model I should use for just kind of like summarizing general articles. I downloaded a Quen model and then I built a shortcut that I replaced all the Claud API shortcuts that I was doing Claude requests. I replaced it with my shortcut that just used my local model. And Quinn, I learned about token, you know, the ~ context window on like You know, these local models, they have a smaller context window than you can just send it to like the API.

1:30:44 And one of the things I realized was in a lot of my shortcuts, I was parsing raw HTML from websites because it was typically the most surefire way to get things like the header image URL or to get the body of the text. Cause sometimes articles using the shortcuts action of get article, the get details of articles, sometimes it wouldn't work right.

1:31:07 So I had a lot of places in my shortcuts where I was getting the full HTML of websites. Apple Intelligence used models action always failed because of the amount of text. And apparently, feeding the raw HTML from 15 websites every day to a model is a lot of context and tokens. Yes. And that is what I discovered as I started using these local models, it kept failing. And it was because of the context window.

1:31:33 So I went through and rewrote a bunch of my shortcuts. Rather than getting the raw HTML from a web page, I've figured out what actions use to get the body of an article. Just give me the text. Don't give me the HTML. And using the Quen model, raising the token the context window pretty high, it works great. And so now when I run a lot of my shortcuts, it just uses the model on my Mac Studio and all my shortcuts work.

1:31:58 Sometimes the language and writing is not as good as what I was using Claude Opus five point five, which was also probably part of the cost for the API. But it's it's sometimes not as good, but for 95% of the use cases, it is great, it is free, and it is local. Now, I did download, and that the Quinn model is like 17 gigabytes.

1:32:18 You have to download it. I did try the Meta Lama open weight model, which is like 70 gigabytes. It's a lar it's a larger model, but it has a larger context window. So I could I could give it the raw HTML of a website if I wanted to. And what you do in LM Studio is like you load a model, and then in my shortcut, I can point to what model I want to use in that request.

1:32:43 And I built it so I can choose what model, what local model to use when I run the shortcut. And the one time I used the Llama model on a big shortcut, Jason, it might have been the second time I ever heard my Mac Studio fan spin up. And this was not like the the last time I heard the fans, I had to like lean over and put my ear to it to kind of like try and hear the fan.

1:33:06 Jason, who's running the shortcut pinging this local llama model with large context? Those fans were loud. Like you would hear the fans in this recording. My Mac Studio was chugging on that local model. But it's local. It's on my Mac. It's free. It can run as long as I want, and I'm not paying for some tokens via API.

1:33:25 And so I am now in the local model world and I'm all about it. That's all. Yeah, I mean it's good. The biggest trade off is it's slower because you don't have a million NVIDIA GPUs powering it. You just have whatever's inside of your Mac Studio. Whatever machine you have. Yeah. I run local models on both the Mac Mini and this MacBook Pro because the MacBook Pro has an five Macs in it, which is Yeah, yeah.

1:33:46 like pretty good. ~ and I have heard the fan come on on the Mac on that MacBook Pro many times when I'm using it, but that's because it it just pins the GPU at 100% every time. And the the thermal infrastructure of a MacBook Pro is a lot different than a Mac Studio. And so that's fine. But yeah, I think I so that is actually the in my mind, the biggest trade-off is the time to first token and how fast it generates stuff is just a lot slower. ~ but it is and I now understand why you're maxing it out.

1:34:17 Cause the the math I was trying to do was when I first released contextually I ran into the issue that the token win or the context window for Apple Intelligence prior to current, you know, Mac OS twenty seven was four thousand tokens or something like that, which is not even enough to like put in a thousand word note or something like that.

1:34:36 It was stupid. And so I had used I gave you the option of enabling if you were on the paid version, an open AI extension. So it's like if you want, if you're willing to send your data to OpenAI, you can use that for the summaries and for the action items and for that kind of stuff. And in the entire time I had it released, I mean, there was people who were using that.

1:35:00 I don't have like super good data on, but I know it was not zero. Like I know because I get feedback from people talking about it and that kind of stuff. And I think I paid a total of six dollars for that API for the entire time. Now, the current version of Apple Intelligence has a much better token window and it Yeah. Yeah.

1:35:14 is able to do a lot more on device. Or with private cloud compute. Thank you very much, Apple. Right. Yes, yes. And so I've actually disabled that. Like I don't need that anymore. And so the only way you could use open AI, the open AI ~ API API. now is if you want to use the ask contextly feature. The thing is you don't even need to just ask Siri, because it's built like it works.

1:35:34 Right, right. It's built in. Yeah, So it's built in. What are you using the bionic agent for? Anything you would use Claude Cowork or Claude Code for? It'll do coding. Absolutely. So have you tr have you tried coding with it? I've had it do bug passes for me. ~ and there are different models that are better for that than than other right?

1:35:52 Like and you when the nice thing is like in both LM Studio or if you just go to Hugging Face, you can look up models based on, hey, I want a model that's really you know, or you can just use what you did, Siri. Tell me which model, Yeah, yeah. which local models are best. And then it'll like on the Mac mini It's a little bit limited because it only has 48 gigs of memory.

1:36:14 So I'm not you I can't use super large models for that. So I I have used it for some coding. I've also run it on my MacBook Pro to do it, but I don't do that very often because it's like I do Yeah, yeah, yeah. every I'm recording this podcast on it right now. I prefer to like keep it a little bit cleaner.

1:36:27 But by the way, what's beautiful about it is it's not over eager to just do things. It only does things when I ask it to, Right. Right. unlike Muse, right? It's like Right. It just sits there waiting for me to tell it. And now d I think it might have actually just been today. We might be breaking news. I don't know if it happened today or not.

1:36:43 But you can run LM link on your phone Yes. and it will just you can so you could send stuff to your computer d from your phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's essentially like using the the chat GPT or the cloud app on your phone, but instead Yes. of going to the cloud, it's just going to your device.

1:36:57 So do you find it's pretty good at the coding stuff? I think it's really good. Again, it is just slower. Right? But Okay. I don't care. Like if I ~ so big feature that I released recently in Element is auto enhance. This Yes, yes. is by far the most requested thing that I've gotten. And I I felt like it was pretty good, but it was doing a couple of weird things with preview generation.

1:37:22 And I I tried codex, I tried cloud code to try to fix some things, and it turned out that it was actually the local model that was able to deduce, hey, what if because Apple released released a new version of raw processing, Right. it's raw pipeline raw nine with macOS twenty seven. It said, well here's the deal.

1:37:39 It would cost you nothing in terms of like eff ~ effectiveness of the app to just load all the previews using raw version eight. And then as soon as you click into something, generate that preview using raw nine and then generate them on the other side. But it was the low it was running it local in LM Bionic that actually solved that for me. Where Okay.

1:37:56 Clog and I don't know if it was because Clog code Is sucking up the context window of all the previous, you know, stuff we've been doing. Like, you know what I mean? So it's kind of got like fixed on a path and it couldn't Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. get out of that. But using the local model in LM Bio Bionic, it was just like, dude, this is like the simplest answer is just load all these previews this way, use RAW nine for the processing, and then when you're using the auto enhance feature, it won't and anyway, it won't interfere with because that's using Raw 9.

1:38:22 Like anyway. Right, right, right. And it did it really. And then the other thing I wanted it to do, and I don't I I'm kind of proud of this feature. One of the things that I implemented that was a w one thing I really liked about Aperture was you could select up to four images and hit enter and it loads you all four of them at a time.

1:38:37 This is really helpful, like if you're trying to compare expressions or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. You load four images and you hit auto and it auto enhances all four of them at a time. Instead whereas That's cool. That's cool. it otherwise it's like looking for one photo and it's trying to figure out what it's supposed to do.

1:38:50 Yes. And that was really glitchy at first for the same reason 'cause the previews were loaded using version eight of Raw and version. Okay. And it like just do this, this and this and we just made the changes and it worked really well. So And I'll say one, get Jason's element photo, links to that and and my one Please.

1:39:05 thousand vibe coded apps are down in the description. But I had finally a real use case for element photo because I took class pictures of my kids' different classes and I like, ~ man, I don't want to do this in photo Element Photo, duh. Yeah, absolutely. And so I used element photo and I I take credit because I asked for the auto enhanced feature and now it ships.

1:39:22 So I'm gonna say that that you did that 'cause of me. You can take credit. I would I'd been working on it for months. And here's the thing. If you think That's fine. That's fine. about it conceptually, it's a very hard thing to figure out because every photo is different. And I don't Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:39:33 have a hundred and fifty thousand people working on this. It's like ~ Right. me and Claude and LM Bionic and stuff. But I was able but it turns out there is actually like this is the way that it should work and and it was able to get it implemented. But I just I I had actually had it running on my computer for probably almost two months now.

1:39:52 But it's like I needed to just keep testing it in a hundred different versions of like fail failure modes. And so I Right. had been using it a ton. And I really wanted to make sure that it went a dialogue. And I'll just to be clear, I'm happy to say this. I believe Lightroom's auto is probably better with edge cases.

1:40:12 But I think element gets you close enough that you can tweak it on your own without having to spend a ton of time starting from zero. But again, Lightroom has like Adobe. Lots of people working on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that it accomplishes and especially for I tend to shoot a lot of complicated scenario really fast driving cars, dark rooms, people, like portrait like if you're just shooting portraits Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:40:34 and stuff, the auto enhancing element will be perfect for you. Last question, and then we're gonna go record a bonus episode. Can't wait. Can I tell LM Studio Bionic to go learn everything from my Clawed Conversations so it has full context of my projects and stuff? Okay, so the answer to that is sort of yes.

1:40:56 But Okay. what you can do is point it at whatever markdown file Claude has created about how it does certain things. So every time you set Yeah. up a Claude cowork like routine or scheduled thing, there's a markdown file that tells it exactly what to do. For your Yeah, yeah, yeah. project, if it has been creating the documentation, there's a markdown file that just has all the stuff.

1:41:16 So like what Right. I sent you for the publishing a release or something like that. I can't remember what I sent you, but I sent you a markdown file recently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just that kind of thing. So you can point it at those. And if for Okay. some reason you don't have a good thing to point it at, you should just say to Claude, Hey Claude, what I need you to do is create documentation of all of these things in one place so that I can hand it off.

1:41:39 And it will literally make you a handoff dot markdown file that will give like the local one all that information. Keep in mind that it then has to load that into context every time. Right. Okay. Can I tell you what I was doing just y while you were telling me about the great update in Element Photo, I was just just pricing out I was just pricing Buying a Mac mini.

1:42:00 out what a new Mac mini might cost with more memory because So wait, that is the five Pro with how much memory? All sixty four the highest you can get. Okay. So basically that's the one I have, except for mine only has forty eight. Well and the reason why I wanted that memory cause when you load a model with LM Studio, it's going to the unified memory, right? Like that's that's the idea.

1:42:20 yeah. It's loading it it's loading it all in memory. Right. So I can run more powerful models on the MacBook Pro than I can on the Mac Mini. But it's Right, right. that makes sense. This is a problem because as my six Mac Mini review video, I was juggling Mac Minis, and I might do some calculations later of what happens if I trade in three Mac Minis.

1:42:41 What can I get today? Because I'm very tempted now to try LM Studio Bionic with some coding stuff. But I'm I'm hesitant because Claude is really, really good at it and Yeah. and no and has all my context, but I also don't want to pay for it anymore, so I also wouldn't be worried about running I would not be as worried about running LM Studio Bionic on your Mac Studio compared Okay.

1:43:06 to cause you're running Claude on it, right? Yeah, I wouldn't be worried about that. I wouldn't put Muse on it because it's super eager to just Sure. Sure. Yeah, I don't want that yeah. go rummaging around through all your transistors and stuff. But I don't Yeah. think you would experience that. ~ with 'cause it still requires you still have to give it permission to do certain things and it it'll, Right, right.

1:43:22 you know, and because it's running on a headless Mac mini, there are times when I'm like, shoot, I gotta make sure that It's but in in my case on the ma headless Mac Mini that has no personal data anymore 'cause it has been deeply sanitized. ~ I'm fine Yeah. with it just having just do whatever you want.

1:43:37 I mean Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's the thing. Okay. All right, we're gonna get to that. We're gonna talk more about vibe coding stuff because someone has cloned the Adobe Creative Suite to a point. And we're gonna talk about that and just more vibe coding stuff. That's gonna be in the bonus episode.

1:43:49 You can get an ad free version of the show, our bonus episode, our unedited feed, which I don't know, might be three hours today. It's gonna be it's it's a long one today. So you can get all of that by becoming a member. That link is down in the show notes. Thank you to everyone who supports us. Leave us a five star rating in Apple Podcasts if you haven't yet.

1:44:04 Tell us local models. Have you done it? Yay or nay? Or iPhone Duo, did you pre-order? Let us know in that five-star rating and review and Apple podcast, and you get a shout out on the show. Thanks so much for listening and watching. We'll catch you next time.