The Great Attractor & Saturn’s Rings: Unravelling Cosmic Questions

0:00Andrew Dunkley G'. Day. Thanks for joining us again on Space

0:02 Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunkley, your host. I, uh, hope you're well. Coming up in a Q and A episode, we're going to be looking at the sun and the moon. Uh, a little bit of confusion going on there. It's all about the angles, I think. Uh, we're also going to, uh, see if we can tackle a question about the Great Attractor. Uh, is it John Deere or Massey Ferguson? Oh, I don't know.

0:27 Uh, we're also, um, we've had this question question before, but I think this is sort of a follow up question on redefining a moon. What, you know, what defines a moon? And what do you take into account to define a moon? And finally, uh, an interesting question from someone who has a friend who's writing a graphic novel which is also science fiction and it's set on a planet that's got rings.

0:51 And she's wondering about the rings. What do you see when you're standing on the planet looking up at them and how do they act and what do they do? And uh, can you put it on your finger and is it worth anything? That's all coming up on this edition of space nuts.

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1:11Generic Space nuts. 5, 4, 3. 2. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts report it feels good.

1:21Andrew Dunkley Joining us again as he thunders away on

1:24 his keyboard to try and answer all these questions because he's so well prepared is Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer lad. Hello, Fred Watson.

1:31Professor Fred Watson I'm just writing the email I should have sent

1:33 before we, uh, started. Yes,

1:36Andrew Dunkley uh, I can wait.

1:39Professor Fred Watson It's okay. It's fine.

1:41Andrew Dunkley It's only 500 words. Um,

1:44 shall we get straight into it and see if we can solve some of these puzzles from people?

1:48Professor Fred Watson Yeah, yeah. I think

1:49Andrew Dunkley Justin has sent in a question. I don't know

1:52 where Justin's from. Um, probably from his house. Uh, I was at work the other morning and the sun and the moon were both in the eastern sky, yet it was a crescent moon, the same moon as the night before. How is this possible? That's a good question because I've often wondered the same thing. I'll look up and go, hang on a minute. Moon's there, sun's there. It doesn't look right. I know where he's coming from. I don't know the answer. I think it's got everything to do with angles and distances and that sort of.

2:28Professor Fred Watson It does. It's actually got a little bit More

2:30 than that, I don't know where Justin is. Um,

2:34Andrew Dunkley he's on Earth, for

2:36 starters.

2:37Professor Fred Watson So he's on Earth, so that narrows it down

2:39 quite a bit.

2:39Andrew Dunkley I'm going to guess Northern Hemisphere,

2:41 although, um,

2:43Professor Fred Watson yeah, I've

2:44Andrew Dunkley got a 50 chance of being right. Actually,

2:46 it's more than that because more people live in the Northern hemisphere.

2:49Professor Fred Watson Yes, that's right. Um, and it

2:51 depends a bit on your latitude as well. Uh, but so let me answer that as if Justin's in Australia, um, because one of the things I was going to say was we have pretty clear skies. We have very high atmospheric transparency here, and that helps in this sort of situation. Um, so, uh, yeah, so what you're looking at is, uh, after sunset, um, when the Moon is in its crescent phase, the sun goes down, uh, and the crescent Moon is very obvious, um, basically in the western sky, and it follows the sun down. Uh, as the sun sets, the moon sets not very long afterwards. So, um, in the morning, it's the same sort of thing, but in reverse. The sun rises, but the crescent Moon is still about the same angular distance from the sun.

3:48 Uh, you know, you can say, well, if it was, for example, 45 degrees or 40 degrees or something like that, um, it would be still about that little bit more, perhaps. Um, or. I beg your pardon, a little bit, uh, yeah, a little bit more. Um, as it, uh, because you're talking about a new moon, uh, the crescent moon is going to swell to become a first quarter moon, and that means its distance from the sun is getting bigger in angular terms. So forget about that bit. But the bottom line is it's not that much different, uh, in the morning sky. So what happens is the sun rises and then the moon rises after it. If it's, say, 40 degrees away, it will rise later.

4:31 Uh, and so you'll be able to see the two of them in the sky looking very similar to what they looked the previous night, except they're the other way around. The sun's higher in the sky than the moon is. And then as the two of them progress their way through the sky during the day, the sun eventually will set and the Moon, the crescent moon, will follow it. That's the answer. I'm not sure whether I've, uh, expressed it very well, but that's the bottom line.

4:57Andrew Dunkley No, I get that. Um, but again,

5:04 I still struggle to get my head around the light source that's illuminating the Moon. And the way it looks to us from our perspective sometimes just doesn't make sense to me. And I think that's where Justin was coming from too. I just,

5:22Professor Fred Watson yeah,

5:23Andrew Dunkley I try to, try to understand, try to think in

5:25 my mind, okay, where is the sun right now and why? Yeah, sometimes it's obvious. Other times I think that just doesn't seem right.

5:33Professor Fred Watson M. I think it's probably most obvious when

5:36 it's at first or last quarter because then it's basically half. Half the moon is always being illuminated. What changes is how much of that half moon we can see. Uh, and at new moon you can't see any of it because it's all on the sunward side, uh, of the moon. Uh, but as the moon moves through its orbit, you see more and more of the illuminated side till it's a half moon and then it turns into a gibbous moon. More than a half moon, uh, as it sort of goes around in its orbit. Um, in some ways it's maybe best illustrated by, by a model. Um, and often people hold up a tennis ball and sort of show how, how it's lit up by a lamp or the sun or whatever. And you can sort of imagine how the phases change as we

6:24 see the moon.

6:26Andrew Dunkley Gibbous moon. Where did that name come from?

6:29Professor Fred Watson Gibbous means, uh, fat.

6:31Andrew Dunkley Oh,

6:33Professor Fred Watson yep,

6:33Andrew Dunkley right.

6:34Professor Fred Watson That's where it came from.

6:36Andrew Dunkley I saw a gibbons moon once at the zoo. It

6:38 wasn't pretty. Anyway.

6:40Professor Fred Watson Gibbon's moon is just a bit different from a

6:43 gibbous moon.

6:43Andrew Dunkley Ye, definitely not pretty at all.

6:47 Hope, uh, that answered your question, Justin. And thanks for sending us in. Sending it into us is what I meant to say. Um, this is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson Watson. We'll go straight on to our next question. It's an audio question. M this one comes from Paul.

7:03Paul Hello there. My name is Paul and I'm from

7:06 Salt Lake City, Utah. Been listening to the show for as long as it's been out. The one thing that I don't hear often on the show and would love an explanation on is the Great Attractor. Is there anything in particular that we do know about it? If so, what is it? I love the show so much, Mr. Dunkley. Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at large. What do you care? So much. Thank you for taking the time. Bye bye.

7:39Andrew Dunkley Thank you, Paul. Hope all is well in Utah as

7:41 things start to freeze over. I think it's uh, a. It's a pretty cold state that one, isn't it? Utah in, in the winter. Just about everything's cold in the northern hemisphere in, in winter. On our recent trip to the the Balkans, it's going into, um, into winter. They're in mid autumn at the moment. And, um, yeah, we had a couple of pretty chilly days and I noticed snow already on the mountains in, in Bulgaria, so. Yeah, but we were ready for it. No, we weren't. We're Australian. We hate the cold. Um, the Great Attractor. I can tell you, Paul, that it's great and it's an attractor, and that's about as much as. I know.

8:21Professor Fred Watson I thought it was the John Deere or the

8:23 massive Massey

8:24Andrew Dunkley Ferguson. Yeah, the John Deere, I think.

8:27 Yeah.

8:28Professor Fred Watson So what is it?

8:30 It's. It's something that, um, it goes back to, I guess, the 1980s, when people first started, uh, looking at the Great Attractor. Um, uh, it's basically, um, uh, something massive in the universe, in our local universe, not very far away, maybe 250 million light years away. And that in galactic terms is relatively close by. Um, and it basically pulls on our galaxy and our companion galaxies, which are known as the Local Group. So, uh, we are heading to the Great Attractor at, uh, a speed in the region of 600 kilometres per second. It's pulling us towards it. Uh, now we will actually never get there because eventually the expansion of the universe will overcome that. 600 kilometres per per second.

9:32Andrew Dunkley I thought of that just as you said it.

9:34Professor Fred Watson Yeah. So that. So the

9:36Andrew Dunkley most. I did.

9:37Professor Fred Watson Oh, good. Yeah, you should

9:40 have said it.

9:41Andrew Dunkley No, I knew you would.

9:42Professor Fred Watson Yeah. So it's never gonna.

9:45 There's never going to be a collision. Um, the reason why it's mysterious is its direction. It's in the plane of the Milky Way, what we call the zone of avoidance. That, uh, goes back before we knew that galaxies were galaxies. The zone of avoidance was the region around the Milky Way where you don't see any galaxies. And that's because the dust in the Milky Way blocks our view towards them. So, um, um, it's in the plane of the Milky Way. That means we're sort of. If you think of, uh, our sun and planets sitting in the disc, the spiral disc of the Milky Way, and then imagine looking at something that's on the other side of that disc, which is what the Great Attractor is, you realise that you're never going to see

10:28 it. With visible light telescopes you can. With radio telescopes, though, and, uh, and infrared telescopes, you can penetrate some of this dust. So, uh, what we know is that there is a huge amount of solar mass there. Um, it'll be both visible and dark matter, which is probably not one, but a whole lot of cluster of Clusters of galaxies. And sometimes it's called a supercluster when you've got a cluster of clusters. Uh, and in fact, this particular one has a name, even though we can't see most of it because it's in the zone of avoidance.

11:11 Uh, it's called the Laniakea Supercluster. Um, and it's basically pulling our, uh, Milky Way and many, many other galaxies, uh, in our Local Group and others towards it, um, towards the Great Attractor, which is how it got its name. But as I said, we'll never collide with it because the expansion of the universe will eventually overcome that, um, mad dash towards each other. Uh, so, yeah, so people are still, um, using, well, x ray telescopes, uh, radio and infrared surveys, as I mentioned before, to look at the structures, um, which exist within this. And we can identify not just the Great Attractor itself, but the, the clusters of galaxies that sit within it.

12:00 Because the Great Attractor is a cluster of clusters. And so we can see these individual clusters now. Um, it's. Yes, it's really quite remarkable that this object is there. We don't talk about it that much because there's just a few scientists who are studying that cluster of clusters. But, um, it's not anything that in a. You know, it's not one of the big mysteries of the universe, if I can put it that way. Which is why Space Nuts doesn't talk about it all that often.

12:32Andrew Dunkley Although we have, we have, we have done a

12:34 couple of times in the past.

12:37Professor Fred Watson Yeah, there's a number of YouTube

12:40 videos, um, that talk about it. So, um, you know, Paul might usefully get online and just have a look at some of these YouTube videos that will probably give you a much more succinct, uh, answer than the adequate one that you've just had. Ah.

12:54Andrew Dunkley Or. Or Paul can

12:57 go to where I've just gone Amazon.com and he can buy a copy of the Great Book of Tractors, which, which includes John Deere, Caterpillar, Massey Ferguson International. I'm not joking.

13:14Professor Fred Watson Yeah,

13:15Andrew Dunkley I'm not joking. There is such a book.

13:18 So, um, that might not answer his question, but at least he'd know which. And, you know, they have a Tractor of the Month thing as well. And this greater tractor has never won that.

13:31Professor Fred Watson No, we should have a greater Tractor of the

13:33 Month, really.

13:34Andrew Dunkley Yes, we should.

13:35Professor Fred Watson Uh, in Astronomy.

13:37Andrew Dunkley Yeah.

13:37Professor Fred Watson Yep,

13:38Andrew Dunkley there it is. Um, thank you, Paul. Great

13:40 question. Lovely to hear from you. Hope you can stay warm in Utah in the coming months. This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson Watson.

13:51Speaker G I believe that this nation should commit

13:53 itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the Earth. These nuts.

14:04Andrew Dunkley I'm actually so glad that Paul asked that

14:06 question because it's been way too long since I did the Great Attractor joke and I, I really love that one. Yeah. Our next question, Fred Watson, comes from Bob. Um, you put no limit on the size of a moon. Considering the billions to trillions of Saturn's ring particles, do we need to add has cleared its orbit to our definition of a moon. Now, we've had a few questions recently, and maybe Bob asked one before about defining a moon when, you know, when does a moon become a moon by our definition?

14:44 Uh, and now he's sort of another little tricky point to throw into the mix.

14:50Professor Fred Watson Um, yeah, except that there are

14:52 objects which we definitely accept as moons which are embedded in the, in the rings of Saturn. M so, and in fact, to some extent shepherd the rings of Saturn, if I can put it that way, gravitationally keep them in the right spot. Um, so, uh, I do like the idea though, Bob's idea, which comes from our, ah, definition of a planet. A planet is an object that's orbiting the, um, sun. In the case of solar system planets, it's orbiting the sun. It's big enough for its own gravity to pull it into a spherical shape and it's cleared the area around it of debris. So it's become the most gravitationally dominant object within that region. And I don't think you can say that about the little moons of Saturn that are embedded in the rings,

15:41 even though they probably are the most dominant gravitational objects, because they do shepherd the rings. Um, but it's a good point. You know, it's embarrassing that we don't have a lower limit, uh, for, for what, what counts as a moon.

15:59Andrew Dunkley In which case you could question the

16:01 authenticity of Phobos and Demos. Maybe.

16:06Professor Fred Watson Yeah, well, um, maybe

16:09Andrew Dunkley we find out, as we spoke about it in the last

16:11 episode, if we find out with this new mission that they're asteroids.

16:20Professor Fred Watson That's right. Captured asteroids.

16:22 Um, yes. Look, it's, it's, it's, you know, basically it's a, it's a, it's an open question. Um, I'm just looking at a nice little piece here from the National Air and Space Museum. What makes a moon a moon? A moon is a planetary body that goes around another planetary body. Usually this is one, or usually this is one or more moons going around a planet. But it doesn't have to be a planet. But once again, nobody bothers defining, uh, what a small. You know, what the size limit is.

16:58Andrew Dunkley Yeah.

17:00Professor Fred Watson So, yeah, interesting stuff. We, we need to

17:02 get that sorted out, I think. But

17:03Andrew Dunkley we don't put a size limit on planets, do we?

17:07Professor Fred Watson No, we don't. Uh, in terms of, uh.

17:10 Yes. So m. Like. Yeah, exactly. So Mercury is clearly a planet, even though it's actually smaller than some of the moons of the other of the gas giants, smaller than Ganymede and smaller than Titan. But it's still a planet because it's the only object in that region of the solar system and it is spher.

17:27Andrew Dunkley What if you had two objects

17:31 orbiting each other, like two Earths? Uh,

17:35Professor Fred Watson yeah.

17:37Andrew Dunkley Would you define them both as planets or. One

17:39 would have to be a moon.

17:41Professor Fred Watson So there is a definition there. Uh,

17:44 if their centre of mass, um, in other words, something we call the barycenter, the centre of gravity of the two, if it's outside of both of them, in other words, they're kind of orbiting around a common centre of mass, then what you've got is a binary planet. Uh, it's not a planet and a moon. Um, you've got a binary planet and technically that's what Pluto is. Pluto and its moon, Charon, uh, which is the centre of mass, is actually outside the body of Pluto. Yeah. So Pluto and Charon really should be considered a binary dwarf planet because they're both spherical and. Yeah,

18:27Andrew Dunkley they are. Ah. And that makes me wonder why

18:30 we don't consider the shape when defining a moon too. I mean, should it. Um. Maybe I'm just being idealistic, but shouldn't it be spherical?

18:42Professor Fred Watson Um, well, that would rule out Phobos and

18:45 Deimos.

18:45Andrew Dunkley Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

18:46Professor Fred Watson And it would rule out, you know, probably

18:49 200, 250 of the moons of Saturn. Um, I think 297. That's

18:54Andrew Dunkley just greed.

18:58Professor Fred Watson Um, yeah, Saturn's very replete with moons,

19:00 but most of them are odd shapes. Some of them are very interesting indeed. Um, yeah, so, um. But yes, there's a loose end there in astronomy. Uh, I need to check a little bit further. Ah, the International Astronomical Union might have a definition of a moon that's better than what I've just been pulling out of the back of my head.

19:20Andrew Dunkley Maybe. Yeah. But, uh, it is, it is

19:23 kind of a grey area all up. Uh, and no pun intended, because that's basically the colour of ours. But,

19:29Professor Fred Watson um, it's the colour of the back of my head as

19:31 well. Yeah.

19:33Andrew Dunkley Only the Back, though. Yeah.

19:37 All right. Um, it's a. It's a really good question. And, uh, there is. And he brings up a really valid point, so.

19:47Professor Fred Watson Hm. Yeah, maybe.

19:50Andrew Dunkley Maybe he should file that one, send it into

19:52 them and say, look, have you considered this? And they might go, oh, you know what? We should. And that'll change everything. You never know. Thank you, Bob. Um, great to hear from you and, uh, thanks for sending in your question.

20:10Generic 3, 2, 1.

20:12Speaker H Space nuts.

20:14Andrew Dunkley Our final question today, Fred Watson's a

20:16 little bit different, comes from Isla.

20:19Isla Miller Hi, my name's Isla Miller. I'm from

20:22 Perth, Western Australia. First of all, I just wanted to say thank you so much for everything you do. Um, I've been listening to the podcast for so long, so it's, um, been really wonderful to listen along. My question's actually in relation to a graphic novel that my friend's writing. So the graphic novel takes place on a rocky planet that has a ring around it.

20:48 And I guess we understand how the ring would appear to move through the sky as the planet has seasons, much like Earth. But our question is how would it appear to the viewer who's standing on the planet? So what would it look like during the day? What would it look like at night? Um, also, I guess, would you be able to see planets and the moon at night as well?

21:16 Um, how it would look to the viewer? Also, would there be any strange phenomena when the sun moves through the, uh, the belt as well? Thank you so much. And anything else, um, you can think of would be greatly appreciated.

21:34Andrew Dunkley Wonderful question. Thanks, Isla.

21:36 I. I want to know more about the book, actually, so maybe Isla can send us a message. I want to find out because, you know, I'm very interested in science fiction and, and science fiction novels and, um, yeah, I'd like to find out about that. It might be. Might be my next read. Um, but, yeah, what would it look like standing on a planet with. With rings? I have seen artists impressions of this and even, uh, I think they have been a few depictions of what you would see looking from the surface of Saturn if you could stand on it out at the rings, and the effect that sunlight would have. I, uh, think it would be a glorious sight.

22:19Professor Fred Watson It would, um. So that's the best way to think

22:21 of this, is to imagine, um, you know, you're standing on Saturn. As you said, there's no surface, so we can't do that. But if you were, um. So first of all, the rings, in terms of their position, would their position as you look at them, in other words, the Vista that you see, they would always be in the same direction and basically stretch from one horizon to the other. Um, that would not change throughout the year. Um, so they would always be in the same position because you're standing on the surface and these things are on the equator.

23:02 You've got a latitude, so the two come together. But what would change is their appearance. And it's basically exactly as Isla says. Um, Saturn does have seasons a lot like the Earth in the sense that I think Saturn's axial tilt, its obliquity, the tilt to the plane of its orbit is, um, about 26 degrees, not that much different from our, uh, 23 and a half degrees here on planet Earth. So as you look at the rings, um, in your summertime they will be illuminated by the sun on the side that you can see. The side of the rings that you can see?

23:40Andrew Dunkley Yeah. And

23:40Professor Fred Watson so they'd be very, very bright

23:43Andrew Dunkley and you wouldn't sleep at night because

23:45 they'd always be lit up

23:46Professor Fred Watson that, um.

23:50 Yes, to some extent. That's right. They would, uh, twilight, you would have the rings illuminated. And in fact, that's a really interesting thing. You would see the shadow of the planet, uh, traversing across the rings.

24:03Andrew Dunkley Yeah,

24:05Professor Fred Watson uh, that will be quite, quite something,

24:07 wouldn't it? And you get. So. And during the winter when the sun is below the plane of the rings, because the rings are on your equator. So in summertime it's above the plane of the rings. In winter it's below the plane of the rings, it will be illuminating the rings, uh, from behind. And the rings, because they're made of individual particles, they're not solid, uh, they're translucent. So you'd still get sunlight filtering through. It would probably be quite a bit dimmer. Uh, but, um, you'd get sunlight filtering through the rings. Um, and again, it would depend on your latitude. You might also be able to see the sun itself directly, depending on your latitude.

24:52 It's, uh, really all kinds of interesting phenomena in regard to unusual phenomena. I guess the one that would be intriguing, I think this could be quite spectacular because we've seen photos of this from the Cassini spacecraft when you're very near the equinox, so the sun is lighting up the ring system from the edge.

25:15 Um, and remember the rings, 250,000 kilometres across, the. Only 100 metres thick, if that, um, the, the. Any larger boulders or objects within the rings are going to cast long shadows on the ring surface. And we saw that with some of the Cassini images. In fact, one of the satellites Casting these great long shadows.

25:41Andrew Dunkley Like big spokes.

25:42Professor Fred Watson Like big spokes, that's right. So you get

25:45 interesting phenomena around about the equinoxes.

25:48Andrew Dunkley And would you have, like, little

25:51 eclipses on, on the planet's surface from that situation?

25:55Professor Fred Watson Yes, but, um, they.

26:00 Only if you're on the equator. Ah,

26:02Andrew Dunkley yeah.

26:03Professor Fred Watson And if you're on the equator, uh,

26:06 and you're at the equinox, the sun's got to shine through the rings. It was pretty, pretty dim, I think, um, the effect that you get. And of course the rings, um, in wintertime would cast a shadow over your location, depending on your latitude because the sun's being blocked, even though some light would filter through. Uh, nevertheless, the sun's mainly being blocked by the ring system. It's a great, great question. Great. Uh, to put your self into that.

26:37 Into that situation.

26:40Andrew Dunkley Absolutely. I think it'd be, um,

26:43 an extraordinary sight. And I don't think there'd be a one size fits all scenario because we know of several planets with rings and some of them are quite significant, like Saturn. But then you get out to, um. Is it Neptune or Uranus that's got the rings? Neptune.

27:04Professor Fred Watson Both of them have.

27:05Andrew Dunkley Yeah. I mean, they're not, they're not big,

27:07 thick, heavy. No,

27:08Professor Fred Watson they're not. They're much more slender.

27:11Andrew Dunkley So. And the distance from the, the sun

27:14 would make a difference to the effect as well. So there's all of that that comes into play. Really interesting stuff. Great question, though. Very, very left field. And, um, I like it. Thanks, Isla, and wish, um, your friend well with, uh, their, Their, um, their graphic novel. And please tell me what it's called. I want to know. I'm desperate to know. By the way, Fred Watson, I've finished the first draft of my sequel or prequel to the Human Epoch. And thanks to everyone who's bought a copy, it's.

27:45 It's doing all right at the moment. I made about 10 bucks and, um.

27:51Professor Fred Watson Good.

27:52Andrew Dunkley Yeah. Um, but don't spend

27:55Professor Fred Watson it all at once.

27:56Andrew Dunkley I can't. There's nothing worth that.

28:00 And, uh, I'm. I'm now doing the, the rewrite of it. The draft is just to give me the guide to actually write the story the way I want it to be written. So. Yeah, um. But yeah, I, I'm. I'm really enjoying it. Really enjoying it. But, um.

28:15Professor Fred Watson Good.

28:16Andrew Dunkley It's a little way off being ready. I don't

28:18 know whether to write the trilogy all in one go again or just to do one, you know, book one and then get stuck into book two after I Put book one, Book one out there. I don't. I don't know. I'm still pondering that this one's going to take a bit longer to formulate. Um, but, uh, yeah, anyway, thanks, uh, Isla, thanks for your question. Don't forget, if you've got questions, please send them into us via our website, space nutspodcast.com and spacenuts IO. Click on the AMA M tab at the top and send us text, uh, and audio questions. One more thing, Fred Watson.

28:50 Um, we had not so much a question from Sarah, but a comment. I've learned about the astronomy world outside of just NASA press releases and it's all your fault. Space Nuts has driven huge leaps in understanding what humans are doing up there. I need more Geordie content, though mixed in lightly, to leaving the more serious discussions on space war. I didn't know my nation admitted to having bleep and goldeneye up there until you mentioned it.

29:22 That came from Sarah. So thanks, Sarah, that's a great endorsement. Uh, really lovely, um, remarks. And yes, um, sometimes you do learn things that you didn't know about. Um, such as, uh, the, the U.S. government admitting they have weapons in orbit. Um, which we did a little while back. Uh, but yes, keep those cards and letters coming in or even emails. We take them too.

29:49 And thank you, Fred Watson. We're all done. Uh, we'll catch again real soon.

29:53Professor Fred Watson Sounds good. Andrew. Thank you very much for,

29:55 um, for remembering me when you came back from the Balkans.

30:00Andrew Dunkley It was a stretch, but I managed.

30:02Professor Fred Watson Yeah. See you later.

30:03Andrew Dunkley See. See you. Professor Fred Watson Watson,

30:05 astronomer at large, and thanks to Huw in the studio. Couldn't be with us today because he's out judging the Great Attractor. And from me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for your company. We'll see you on the next episode of Space Nuts. Bye. Bye.

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