Ashes of Love Review - Drama Trio (Ep. 109)

0:00 Hello and welcome back to the T and so to podcast Drama Trio Edition, where three friends chat Asian dramas and let you into that chatter. I'm your host, Liliana. I'm Jess. And I'm Caitlin. And in today's episode, the drama trio is sitting down to review Ashes of Love. Now, if before we get into the episode, just some housekeeping. If you like the podcast, please like, share and subscribe on the platform you listen to.

0:27 That really helps the podcast reach other listeners. For more content, check out Patreon where you can find behind the scenes, first impressions, movie reviews and more. Finally, if you'd like to chat to me or find a community, check out Discord, Instagram, and the socials. The link is in the episode and notes. Now, how did this episode come about? So this episode came about because when you guys listen to this episode, it will literally be almost to the date, six years since I've watched this drama.

1:01 So it's literally celebrating my 6th year anniversary of discovering Asian. Dramas. And it was. I know with this drama, so I think I've been saying I wanted to review it for ages and then Jess said I'll jump on with you and. Then I'll do the reactions. Yeah, yeah, I'll do. We can we can see what we're going to expect from Jess today, can't we? Should we explain, Jess, that you're running on two hours of sleep?

1:38 Yeah, So what happened was I had a lot of stuff happen in my life. I was really busy and dealing with things like insurance and illness, and so I didn't have the time to sit down and watch Ashes of Love when I should have. And then I am also naturally a procrastinator. So I was going, I was watching Ashes of Love all this week, could not stay up past like midnight. So the binge wasn't going very well. It wasn't very efficient.

2:09 And so finally I was like, OK, I'm going to binge it over the weekend in like between Friday and Saturday and the Friday. I mean sorry, the Saturday night binge is what screwed me over because I stayed up all night to watch Ashes of Love. I'm talking like I was like on episode 35 when I started, when I started the Saturday night binge at like 9:00 at night and went until 5:00 AM. Oh God.

2:44 Yeah. So I, I'm not kidding, I went so freaking hard on this binge that my body was just not doing very well. I'm running on fumes. I'm running on basically 2 1/2 hours of sleep and I don't think y'all have seen me sleep deprived. I'm going to be very loopy. I'm going to be wired and hopefully this will be a great episode.

3:10 I'm feeling really sharp right now. But if there's a dip, just like, I don't know. Resuscitate me. Resuscitate me. Oh, I'll resuscitate you. Yeah. So. I'm looking forward to this episode. It's been a long time coming for the drama trio because we have been talking about Ashes of Love. It's a top five drama for a couple of us out here and it's a gateway drama for me.

3:36 And Liliana and Caitlin had never seen it before, so we were like, Oh my God, perfect. Let's all watch Ashes of Love and talk about it together. So this is going to be I mean maybe this is the last drama trio episode. I don't know, like we'll. See, I think I think lines are going to be drawn in this episode.

3:58 Well, people have been saying I just wish I just we've always said, oh, we haven't really truly disagreed on anything. I just wish it didn't have to be this drama. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, so we're a little scared. I think Liliana's more scared than I am, because we'll see. We'll see. I. Because I did not like this drama.

4:19 Spoiler alert, I did not like this. And I have made it known, yes, that I did not like this drama. You put it out onto the Internet before. You. Record it multiple times, multiple videos multiple times. Yeah, yeah. So it is what it is it. Is what it is. The thing is though, The thing is, I don't think I will say right now, I don't think I can separate this drama from the special place it has in my heart.

4:53 So it was my first drama. I mean, there's people out there that are going to defend, for example, dramas like Boys Over Flowers because that was their first drama. I'm just saying like, your first drama will always hold a very special place to you. And this was like, technically this was like the drama that started everything for me.

5:17 Like if we maybe another drama could have come along and I would have started that instead. But this was the one that popped up. So I think we're just, I'm just going to run through everything and then we can just go straight into the review because there's. Yeah. So MDL Synopsis Ziffan, the Flower Deity, dies after giving birth to a daughter, Jin MI. Before her death, Ziffan foresaw foresaw that Jin MI would encounter a fatal love trial and fed her daughter an unfeeling pill to prevent her from developing any romantic feelings.

5:53 Ziffan also instructed the leaders of the Flower Realm to keep Jin MI's identity a secret and had her kept locked in a water boundary within the fly within the Flower Realm. Several thousand years later, Jin MI has grown up into an innocent and naive Sprite who longs to see the world outside of the Flower Realm. When Shufang, the Fire deity and second son of the Heavenly Emperor, accidentally lungs in the Flower Realm after being attacked during his phoenix rebirth process, Jin MI nurses Shufang back to health and demands that he takes her along with him when he leaves the Flower Realm there. This is where Jin adventure and love trial begins as she exposed the realms and meets of various

6:40 immortals and demons that is. Actually a. Really. Good. I didn't think that was a fair. That was a fairly good synopsis. So this is adapted from the web novel Heavy Sweetness Ash Like Frost by Diane Xian. Now let's get this out of the way. There is 2 versions of this drama. There is the version that is available. Netflix used to have it and it used to have the TV version which is 63 episodes.

7:09 That is the version that I originally watched. And then there is the DVD version, which is 60 episodes. Now I believe that the difference is commercial breaks. So the episodes are just cut slightly different because if you're watching it on TV, you'd have like breaks for, you know, you'd add in breaks for commercials, whereas ADVD version would not have breaks. Vicky currently has the DVD version. And I swear this messed me up for a little bit because I was like 63.

7:45 Where's the rest of the episodes? And then I was like, I was getting to towards the end, like episode 59 and I was like, I feel like there's scenes missing, like what is happening? I don't think there is. I think it's honestly just cut differently than when I originally watched it. So I think that's probably where it's coming from. So this filmed all the way back from the 15th of June 2017 to the 16th of October 2017.

8:12 So four months shoot. It aired on August 2nd, 2018 to September 4th, 2018. It's original network. It's got a bunch of, I think this aired everywhere in it, so I yeah. It seems like it. Yeah, Aichi, JSTV, 10 Cent video and Yoku episodes are about 45 minutes. It has an MDL score of 8.5 and a Doban score of 7.8, which if you know Doban that's really good.

8:44 Yeah, I thought it would be higher. What on Doban? Yeah. No, no, Shyantras never do that well on Doban. Like Shyantras really don't do that well. The dramas that do really, really well on Doban tend to be like this year for example, she and her girls got a 9.2 on Doban Insane. So it tends to be very, very different dramas that here 7.8 is actually like really good, really, really good. Like Love between Fairy and Devil. I think only has like a 7.9 on Doban so. Yeah.

9:22 All right, so this was directed by Chu Yu Boon, and he's directed Story of Cooning Palace, The Starry Love, Skate into Love, Eternal Love of Dream. He's directed. Yeah, he's like a fairly, fairly big. One of these things is not like the other. So he's directed 26 dramas and he's got 4 upcoming dramas. Wow, here we got another director, Chung Fong. He's done dating.

9:56 Dating hunter Miss Cupid in love, the Princess and the werewolf. Wrong carriage, right groom. I did want to be honest. Wrong carriage, right groom. Dime. It's not worth it. Take it off your list. It's. Not. Worth it. Same with the same with the Princess and the werewolf. Not worth it 14 so he's directed 14 Drama screenwriter is Zhang Yuan Ang. They've done Immortal Samsara, Ultimate Notes, Golden Eyes and the Mystic 9 so they've screen write for 21 dramas with three upcoming ones.

10:41 This is how this drama has three screenwriters. So the second one is by Yi Tong. They've done Heroes, Immortal, Samsara, The Lost Tomb, The Lost Tomb 2, so 23 dramas and two upcoming. And then the last screenwriter is Majia and they've done The Sorry Love Skate into Love and they've only done 3 dramas and one upcoming one.

11:05 So a fun fact because people do ask and they have no idea why it's dubbed this. And Ashes of Love is actually dubbed like part of the Honey trilogy. And this doesn't mean it's just something the producer dubbed it. So there is a producer that has worked on on Ashes of Love, the Starry Love and Skate into Love.

11:29 And basically he only dubbed it the Honey trilogy because all three of these dramas have honey in the original title and he's worked on all three of them. So like sometimes you'll see somebody mention it like the Honey trilogy. It was just something the not the director, the producer came up with. So I just think it's CNI, a fun fact. As for cast, we have Caitlin's favorite, obviously Youngster. She's been in Lost You Forever, Immortal Samsara, Oath of Love, Psychologist and Go Go Squid.

12:07 I think those are her bigger works. Danglon he. We need to speak about Danglon. Didn't he like not pay his taxes or something? What was his? Yeah, Danglon was cancelled in March of 2022 for not paying his taxes. I will never forgive this man because he had an upcoming drama that I was ridiculously excited for, which was called One Night Wanderer with Nini and my God, the stuff.

12:41 And like it, it's done like it's finished filming. It's on a shelf somewhere. It's on a shelf somewhere. So I am incredibly annoyed because that drama looked so incredibly good. And yeah, so he was cancelled in March of 2022. But he's been in things like Sweet Dreams, Ode to Joy and Brotherhood in War.

13:04 We have the wonderful, the one and only Lo Yunxi. So he's been in till at the end of the moon, Love is sweet Broker late Light Chaser rescue Wang Yi Fei who's been in the Blue Whisperer city of streamer and no boundary Chen Yu Chi who's been in never. Wasn't she also until the end of the moon? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she was she. Played.

13:32 Yeah, yeah, she played like the Demon Lords lackey. And then she was also an eternal love of dream as the second one of the second female leads. Yeah, then we have so. This is off the Dome guys. I just want to sit 2 1/2 hours of sleep off the Dome. And say to me, Zootingway, who's been recently in Smile Code, but he was also in memory of an caustic tile, and the winner is love.

14:08 So that's a cast. So that's everything. I think we should let Caitlin go first. Let. Yeah. And then we can wrap it up with some nicer teas afterwards. All right. To end on a positive note, Caitlin, go ahead. Me geared up here. OK, hold on, let me thoughts. I won't. Yeah, yeah, let me just bring up my.

14:35 There we go. So spoiler alert, I did not like this drama. Do you want me to give the rating to her? Are we just doing non spoiler thoughts right now? Yeah, just non spoilers and then we can write it off. So I will preference this by saying I am not the biggest Yongzo fan. If you did not know, The only drama that I have actually finished, and granted I didn't particularly like it, but I finished it, was Go Go Squid and I mainly was watching that because of the male lead so. That was her worst role though, that is. I know I know I know but so going into this drama I really did not have the best impression of her and it just it the main problem I had was a specific story part which is understandable like I understood

15:33 why it was there but it affected my impression and my liking of the main couple. Due to this story point and because no spoilers I'm not going to say it. So I part I did not like the main couple. I could not get behind them. I could never connect with them. They annoyed me a lot. I loved the side couple, the the demon couple. That was my favorite.

16:00 Really. Yes, I loved them, which we know what happens to them, so I'll get into that later. True to my true to my word. I always like the people that obviously things happen to in the end. And then because because I wasn't really connecting with the main couple, even though I hated them, I found the villains to be a guilty pleasure, especially Lao Yushi's character. So I loved him to the end, no matter if he was horrible or not, I loved him to the end.

16:38 And then also just like due to I think this one story point, the pacing of the drama was really drawn out for me. It didn't help that it was 60 episodes as well. But like, I think even if it was like 40 episodes, I think the story point really affected my rating and really affected the pacing of the drama for me, which brought my rating for this drama down because I just could not connect with the main couple. The main couple was a huge issue for me. I also did not agree with how the ending played out. Really.

17:11 That is, yes, I did not agree with all the endings laid out. Okay, what did you like? The side couple and the. That was it, That was it. That was it, yeah, pretty much. Okay, what about costuming, OST, cinematography, making? I had I had problems with the CGI OK. I can't say but but but for the CGI.

17:33 Though it's an almost, I know, I know the drama I know. So I I gave it, I gave it some leeway for the CGI. There was one particular scene that I could not give leeway to, but it is almost A10, a 10 year old drama, so I'll give it that. There was my favorite. My favorite was when they would hold out their hand for something to magically appear from, you know, somewhere some other dimension where they keep it and then their hand would like slightly move.

18:02 That would be that would kill me. Oh my God that. It was like a running gag. Basically by the end of the show, to me it's like they'd be like I. Thought the costumes were pretty good. Like I think some could have had a little more detail in it, but it wasn't, it wasn't like eternal love a dream where they were just blah.

18:21 Like I think, I think this one had more detail. It wasn't eternal, it wasn't 10 miles of Peach Blossom, but it it it, I wasn't mad at it. OK. I like the OST. I had no problems with the OS. This is iconic. Yeah, I mean, it's a Ding, Ding. It's a Ding Ding. I obviously no complaints on a Ding tank. So I yeah.

18:42 Not too much on, no, I really, really the big things were story points and the main couple for me that was the big issues I had. Talk to me about acting. What did you think about it? Do you really want that too? Without spoilers. Without spoilers. Who was the weakest link? Yanza. I mean. And Denlu, like both the main couple, the main couple, the main couple were the weakest point for me. I think she's made it.

19:09 It's very clear. Oh my God. OK. Anything else? No, I'll leave it to. That I love that Simpsons meme. Simpsons meme where they're like don't stop he's already dead OK You hated it. You. Hated it, is it my turn? Oh, you'll definitely know. For my rating, you'll definitely. Oh. My God. My rating system. You know my rating.

19:38 System. Jeez. OK, so my impression of the show when I first watched it was that it was amazing and I pulled up my review just now from 2019 February 8th, 2019 as I wrote a blog review of Ashes of Love. And I say in the first sentence, if a drama has a character named Rat Fairy and I continue to watch, you know, you've got a winner on your on your hands. And so I think that I thought this show was holy shit amazing. You know, on 1st watch, I love to go home and watch episodes everyday.

20:21 And it was as close when the final like 20 ish episodes were happening, it was as full on a binge. And on this second watch, let me just say the 1st 20 episodes were killing me. I did not enjoy watching those first episodes. They it was like grinding years together. It was not fun and I've was just lost kind of like half the time I was like, I remember the broad strokes of everything, but how like, why did she do this?

21:03 Why did she do that? Where is so and so? I was confused about a lot of things and it was just not compelling to me. And I totally would have dropped this show if we didn't have a podcast review on it. I would have dropped it in the 1st 20 episodes once they hit the mortal trial. The mortal realm I was locked in then I was on the best. This is one of the best mortal realm. I think this is one of the best mortal realm trials that there is because it's almost stronger than their immortal anything like their love in the immortal realm and just don't like anything to do with the second couple, which is you. Literally the binge last night was embarrassing how they popped up on the screen and I was like

21:58 skip ahead, skip ahead, skip ahead, skip ahead, skip ahead and like clockwork. And it's not that I wasn't paying attention because I was getting the gist It was a rewatch. I I already knew where their story was heading, but Oh my God I could not stand to see the push and pull of their relationship.

22:18 I could not give a shit, could not give a shit, could not be bothered to watch all that over again. I thought I had a lot more respect this time around for quote UN quote the villain, which is Lo Yung Chi's character. I think I had a lot more grace for his character this time around. And I was rooting for him a lot more this time.

22:41 And I was not rooting as much for the male lead this time around. Not so much in the romance portion, but as far as all the other hell that breaks loose. I was like, yeah, Oh well, like, it's like sucks to suck, but you know, the these people deserved it. I was kind of like, it is what it is, but I truly felt that the the infractions that the second male lead does, which is William G's character, are still it. It just did me so dirty.

23:17 It was so unforgivable. And I was still so mad at him by the end of the show just for the romance stuff, not necessarily for the rest of the stuff. And I'm trying to dance around the plot points, but as far as what he does to Youngza's character, Jimmy specifically, I'm like, hang him, hang him, like, take him away. So I think overall, I really enjoyed the last 35 episodes, 40 episodes.

23:50 But to get there, I had to slog through 20 episodes, and that was not fun. So my rating definitely did go down. I would still recommend the drama with the caveat that, like, the pacing of the show is not great. Not great. It's like a slip, like you have to climb up this mountain and it is really slow going and it's got a lot of like elements of it, which I think to your point, Caitlin, the plot point that you're annoyed with would probably grind a lot of people's gears today. If this came out as a 2024 show, people would be bitching about this all over the Internet.

24:31 But I have a lot of luck grace for it because it came out in 2018 and it was among the first C dramas, especially Crenches that I watched. So it's very formative for me and it's set the stage for a lot of people. It was extremely popular and it it's almost like I wrote the book a little bit and like, am I upset that the book was written in such a way and that other people are doing variations on the theme and improving upon it? No I'm not, so it's a bit of a catch 22 here because if it weren't for this drama I wouldn't probably wouldn't be here.

25:07 But is it the best setup? Absolutely not and I'm very upset with it too Caitlin. Hence the 1st 20 episodes being so mortifying to get through. I think, but I think when it comes to pacing and whatnot, that is a common ground complaint for most challenges pre rule change, let's put it that way. Because they are 50, they are 55, they are 60 episodes long and I feel like I haven't personally watched a older Shiancha that is that long where the pacing has been really good. Like I feel like that is a common ground complaint for all Shiancha, even, you know, everybody's favorite 10 miles of Peach blossoms.

25:55 Their pacing is not perfect by any word of the means. And I think that nowadays has been way more eradicated, especially because they they only have 40 episodes to play with and that has allowed for that pacing to change. And that was actually one of the reasons that censorship put forward to making it 40 episodes is that they were saying a lot of people were complaining that dramas were very waterlogged and that they were very in filled with stuff.

26:28 So I don't think it's just stay, it is a problem with this drama, I will admit that as well. But I don't think it's just a Ashes of Love problem. I think it's a. Definitely not No, no, no. A problem with. Like it's a critique of the overall. Yeah. Dramas that come out of that period out of. If we're talking about Ashes of Love specifically, and we and we are, we're talking about Ashes of Love within the vacuum of just this one show, it sucked.

26:57 It's that pacing and the 60 episode length of it was tiresome and it's prohibitive to people pressing play on it because you're like 60 freaking episodes. What? What could they possibly have to tell me that 60 episodes worth of of time like so, at least if you. Like are looking at like a 60 episode historical. You could, I think in your mind you could kind of justify a historical, especially if it's based off a real life person. Because like I remember like growing up there were like these epic historical like like shows that came out that were like episodes long or like movies lengths long, right? And in my mind it was kind of the same thing. Like, oh, that's understandable.

27:48 It's based off of real life history. It's based off of a person. Like I think people when they see a 60 plus episode historical C drama versus A60 plus episode Shansha, like that's where their mind goes is like, oh, it makes sense for historical because it's like history. It's like. Yeah, it's a different genre.

28:07 Shansha is like, it's just gods and whatever. Like they don't have have to do 60 episodes, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I did have problems with it right this time around. I wasn't as complimentary to it. I wasn't as nice about it. But overall, I still loved the central couple. I still hated the villain. And I think a lot of my feelings toward like the extreme feelings that I had toward the characters has softened. And I still feel that the, the plot is, is good. It's just, you know, the, the, the foundation of it and the way that they set it up is not my favorite. I do have qualms with it.

28:51 And I would shorten this to 40 episodes in a heartbeat if I could. But we're stuck with 60 episodes. So it is what it is. So. I feel like I'm in the middle. I'm in the middle between Liliana and Caitlyn. Well, you haven't heard what I thought yet, because I. Oh God, OK. So for me personally, I have two views of this drama. I have the me as a watcher that will and chooses not to separate it for this being my very first Asian drama. And if I'm thinking about it in that aspect of my hedge, then I love it because it's very special to me. These characters mean a lot.

29:36 The first time around that I watched it, I stayed up until 7:00 in the morning. I binged it in under 3 days. I binged all episodes and then I watched all the edits available. I listened to the OST and I touched no other Asian drama for three months after that. So I really lived in this world for a very long time and it it took me a really long time to even attempt watching anything else afterwards.

30:08 So to separate from that is a little bit hard because like I said, it's become like such a special drama to me now. If I'm thinking about it as today, as me, as a podcast reviewer, as me, as someone who's way more critical about dramas, then I will gladly agree that it is a flawed drama. It is by no means perfect. The pacing can suck sometimes.

30:41 Absolutely. I would absolutely cut down on episodes because I think they're unnecessary to the story as a whole. I do think now, looking back at it with 2024 eyes, I way more appreciate Luan. She's acting over everybody else around him, let's put it that way. I am not like a young zoo fan. I wouldn't call myself a young zoo fan.

31:11 I appreciate her work. I think there's dramas that she has done better than others. For example, I think she's been pinned pigeonhole into a very specific space and she's struggling to get out of it. But she's trying. I mean, her role in play, you know, dramas like The Psychologist and stuff, you can sort of see that she's improved over the years and like throwing it back now and seeing kind of like where she started because she's a child actress.

31:41 She's been acting since she was very, very young as well. So I don't think this is by any means her best work. Unfortunately. It is the work apart from Go Go Squid that she is automatically, you know, assumed. And what's the word I'm looking for? It's the work that people think of as soon as they think of her.

32:03 It's her magnum opus. Yeah, it's either like Ashes of Love and Go Go Squid. Those are the two that they think of when they think of Youngster. So unfortunately it's what she's stuck with. But until something else comes along, I mean, Lost You Forever was a really, really good one that I think will probably be her new drama that she's associated with in the upcoming years. But like I said, if I'm thinking of it as I'm going to review it from or try to view it from a more unbiased place, which I just don't think I can do completely. It is flawed.

32:43 The pacing sucks sometimes I would cut it down. The acting is OK. It's not, you know, the Lee. I loved the main couple. But I will say there are certain scenes where you can see like almost a little bit of awkwardness between them. And I think now that I've watched far too many C dramas that I care to, you know, say on on air, you can obviously see that because I've seen a better pairings, I've seen a little better chemistry.

33:18 Yeah, Yeah, it is. It is. But with saying that, I still would recommend it because I feel like this is one of those where it some people will love it and some people will hate it and some people will be neither here or there with it. I think it's one of those that if you like the genre, it's a nice one to watch with a couple of caveats. If you're prepared for what you're going in with, I would lump in.

33:46 Now Caitlin will completely disagree, but I would lump in this with 10 miles of Peach blossoms as one of those as a must watch for Shiancha watches because I feel, I feel like. With the caveat that this is now a little lesser than 10, 10 miles of Peach blossoms in my personal estimations. See. For me, on my personal estimation, this still stands above 10 miles of Peach blossoms because I don't have. I don't have.

34:14 This is exactly what happened. When I have the same amount of nostalgia for these two. Yeah. I have the same amount of nostalgia for these two but the rewatch is like when I come in and say did it hold up? And I think Ashes of Love came down a bit, whereas 10 miles, I was like, I see what you're saying, but I still freaking loved it. It was amazing to me.

34:36 So whereas I think this is exactly what happened when we reviewed it, 10 Miles of Peach Blossoms, because I didn't like it nowhere as much as you guys did because you held like, I think that nostalgia and that love for it. Whereas I was coming in like fresh eyed and I didn't see, you know, what everybody else kind of saw.

34:55 So I think this is like the same situation but just reversed in a sense. Exactly, Yeah. So 'cause I think, you know, I liked 10 miles of Peach blossoms, but I didn't love 10 miles of Peach blossoms. So, and I would actually say Caitlin's dislikes of this drama are my dislikes of 10 Miles of Peach Blossoms.

35:17 I had problems with the main couple and the pacing of that drama, which is what she has with like Ashes of Love. So I feel like was just like swapped about a bit. Right. So let's rate this and then we can go into the spoilers. So one teacup is it was something I watched. It wasn't good, but something made me finish and that's like 1205.5 on MDL 2 teacups.

35:44 The OK ones dramas I don't really recommend but they were an OK background watch. And that's a six to A7 on MDL 3 teacups. The enjoyable ones, good dramas. They were enjoyable and I would recommend people who enjoy this drama. 7.5 to an 8 on MDL, 4 teacups the loved ones. There are dramas that I really loved, there might be a couple of problems with, but overall a really enjoyable drama that I would recommend to a wider audience.

36:12 And that's 8.5 to a 9.5 on MDL and then five teacups. the Rose Glass no colored fault dramas. This is rating reserved for dramas that you love so much that you are willing to ignore any problems they may have. And that's like your tense. Now if I'm rating this in 28, like with my love of it from 2018, I would rate it as a 5 tea cup.

36:35 But me like my unbiased review, like my unbiased rating for it would probably be more closer to a three tea cup because I don't think I would recommend this to like wider audiences. I would recommend this to Shyantra watchers and Shyantra lovers, but not necessarily to a wider audience. So realistically, in my heart of hearts, I used to do this thing actually when I first started tea and Soju podcast I and whenever I reviewed because for the first, I don't know, 8 or 10 months, I had no guests. So I was reviewing everything by myself and I would have two ratings.

37:12 I would rate. I would have a head rating and a heart rating, a heart rating I. Remember this? Yeah. So a heart rating would be like how it made me feel, how I was like, so in that world and whatnot. And then my head rating would be like my critical rating, the one where I would use my brain to like, you know, really get into the details.

37:35 So I am going to apply this here and be like my heart rating is A5 teacups because I have so much love for this drama and being my first Asian drama ever, It's that's that just holds a very special place. Now if I'm putting my critical brain on, it's probably more like a three teacup to me. So what about you, Jess? So I actually have my rating from my blog review. I gave it a four and a half out of five stars, which is very high.

38:05 Like I hardly ever give anything, like full marks, like 5 out of five. So I think I'm gonna knock it one whole star. So I'll probably give it 3 1/2 teacups. Yeah, yeah. Caitlin we all know, but. The 1st 20 episodes is A11 teacup. Yeah, I feel like that's where Caitlin is heading, so it's fine.

38:27 Yeah, absolutely. That it's a 1T cup for me. I would have. I would have dropped. Yeah, I would have dropped this, but the podcast made me finish it. So I definitely would have dropped this if I was watching it just on my own. But because we were reviewing it, I have this thing where like, if I'm going to review a drama, I'm going to finish it.

38:47 Yeah. So yeah, I definitely, definitely. It's a 1T cup for me, Yeah. No goodness, right? Right now this is your spoiler warning on this like almost 10 year old drama. So if you there will be spoilers ahead. So we can basically almost review this in arcs because the story does very clearly kind of have like arcs to which so I think we can just sort of go through.

39:19 I did write down like a little breakdown. Oh yeah, perfect. Yeah, of the the arcs. So the first part I just said like, that's kind of like first two episodes really. Or, you know, you can even lump it with two through to five, which is basically Jimmy's birth story, Phoenix's rebirth, and. Then let me just say, if all women could give birth the way that the flower deity gave birth, it would be a beautiful world because she just kind of like, she winced a little bit. She was kind of like.

39:55 And there was a baby. It was a baby floating above her, you know, in a It was beautiful and ethereal. And I remember thinking, I want to give birth like that. It was funny. So we have all of that set up now. I, I actually kind of liked it that they showed us that set up. So we were kind of understanding why she was trapped and whatnot, and it kind of gave her a reason to be that innocent almost. Because a lot of them always start with like, being really innocent, and then we don't really know why. They're just young and naive I suppose. Yeah, so she's even the perishing pellet like from jump, her mom stuffs it in her mouth and it's going to prevent her from feeling any love or affection in her heart of hearts.

40:54 And it will also prevent her from going through this love trial in her first 10,000 years of of life, which is what her mom predicted. She had this, she prophesied over her daughter and I. I really hated this setup because it completely stunted our female lead for, I don't know, 30 episodes or so? That's what I don't get though.

41:20 Like a. Little less than 30 episodes. It was maybe like 25. Episode because technically, technically, the perishing pillar actually breaks in the motor realm. Yeah, it like cracks a bit, yeah. Well it's it's meant to break like it's because that they tell you about it later when Ron you reveals it. It actually way more than cracks. It's like almost being expelled but he comes in and kind of fixes it and that's why she then has no feelings again because it's bloody.

41:51 Pella is still there, but I'm guessing this is Caitlin's story that she really dislikes. So why don't you tell us a little more about your feelings about this? OK, so for one, I am notoriously already like with for the like for the type of female character you get in some of these older see dramas where it's like innocent naive type character, I already do not like those characters.

42:17 So like there's multiple dramas from this era or even beyond this era that if I know that there is like an innocent naive character like this, I kind of avoid them because I don't I know already I don't like this setup of the female lead. What I do not get and, and maybe that's just like me being too logical, but like I understand the pellet thing.

42:40 I understand that that was the storyline. I understand it was supposed to like, keep like protect her from the love trial, keep her from loving anybody, whatever. But what? It's just like, I was like, OK, that makes sense. She can't fall in love. Does not mean she has to be like, have no knowledge of what love is like, have no inkling of what this was at all.

43:04 Like nobody taught her what this was like. I that was where I got a problem with it is like, OK, yeah, she can't fall in love. That makes sense. But like, she was she? Wasn't even like. Trapped. Smart. She was, she was like, you understand, she's not going to be street smart. She was. Why is she not? Book smart.

43:22 Yeah. It was just like, what was she doing? I see what you're saying. That realm for The thing is 1000 years. They did control everything she came in contact with, right? So she did not have access to anything from the outside world. Because like, if you see there's a barrier around the flower realm, and then there's like a second barrier just for which, yeah. The water mirror.

43:48 Yeah, the water mirror like that, she does not go in. She does not go out. And there is only very specific people that go in there. She doesn't have access to books because it's what they provide for her. She doesn't have access to any. Like she doesn't even see people being in love like. Yeah, she like never had seen a man, never talked to a man. She thought that.

44:14 I think she saw the Phoenix naked, I think at one point in episode one or two, and she thought that his penis was a growth and she was like, I'm going to cut it off. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's that's the problem I had with this setup is like, it's not necessarily the fact that she couldn't love.

44:32 It's literally she was a child for 30 something episodes. Yeah, she was very infantile. Yeah. And. And on top of that, with what you just referenced, Jess, I did not like the like comedy aspect of that. Like the whole that whole thing you just described when like I did not find that funny. I didn't I didn't find and that might I mean, I we all know I have a very weird comp like thing with comedy in general, but like to add to the comedic part of that just did not help its case. Like I, I did not like the whole comedy part of it. I didn't like that she was literally a child, which it like in all shape or whatever.

45:16 So that's, I think that was the main reason why I could not get into this main couple is because I literally could not separate the child aspect and the romance. So like I literally saw him like romancing a child the entire time until the pellet was somewhat broken, which sort of helped. And then it was obviously repaired, which we said and then it broke again.

45:40 Like I just couldn't separate that. Do you still see her that way in the mortal realm? Because I did not. I did, yeah, definitely. Until until it broke. I really could not suffer. Really. Oh, yes, I I absolutely. I did not like the mortal realm. I didn't. I did not like. Really. No, I'd rather it was in the immortal realms.

46:04 See, I, I completely disagree with that aspect of it, especially the mortal realm part of it because she grew a lot, I think in the mortal realm as like part of it. I think she changed a lot as a character. And I think you also see the difference of especially like that, you can see the difference of her in the first half where she is, like you said, very, you know, innocent and whatnot.

46:34 But then she has the mortal realm. And even when that pellet is fixed, she comes back to the immortal realm. And she is way more grown up than I think she was before she did before we had the mortal realm. Oh, I mean, I agree with. That like there's definitely a change in character but I think I think what was bad for me is like the damage was already done type thing. Like even when it was broken, even when she did grow up in the moral room, I do agree with that. The fact that I just didn't disliked when she was innocent so much.

47:10 I don't think anything could have really repaired my opinion of that because even when she was broken I still had issues with her character in like some of the decisions she made. Yeah, I have at the very. End too. I feel what you feel but like a fraction of it. But I do understand where you're coming from because I don't know if you guys have seen the movie Poor Things with Emma Stone.

47:34 I've heard of it. OK, I hate that movie. But it's has a does a very similar thing where you have this protagonist who is this what like a child, a literal infant brain stuck in a woman's body. And the men that are around her love her free spirit, love her naivety, and they fall in love with her for that.

47:57 But they're also like projecting. And both of the the male leads do that in this in the show, Like they're projecting everything that they want to feel everything that they want in a partner onto her because she's like a blank slate. Like she has no no personality. She has no wants. She has she's just like free and she has she has no, she never says no.

48:19 And you know, in the same vein as Ella Baxter and poor things, like what that movie is overtly doing, this show is also doing, which is saying that like men just want like this child, like this woman child who doesn't understand, like her own body doesn't understand love, doesn't understand sex. And they can, like, teach her the ways of the world, and they can shape and mold how she sees the world.

48:51 But that's the other thing I had an issue with, though. They didn't teach her. Like when it took forever. Yeah, it took forever for especially Den Loon's character, but Lao Yushi's character too, to realize that like what was going on, which obviously was a story point. They wanted to stretch it out as much as possible, but.

49:10 I don't know the entire. Time. I was like, OK, dude, you know something's off. You know that she's supposed to realize this, or she's supposed to know this. He mentions this at the very end of the show. He's like, I knew something was off, but like I didn't investigate. I didn't. Right. Like why didn't? You do anything about?

49:26 Like that was my other issue is like, OK, you notice something's off. You notice that response wasn't right or like she had no response. Why don't you explain it to her like I have? I have. Obviously the flower realm wouldn't want to, I get that. But like when she's exposed to other people who obviously didn't know what had happened, even her father, why not sit her down and have that discussion with her or even realize something is off and.

49:55 Yeah, there's no male character that seeks to give her the agency that she's missing. Yeah, and that that was another issue I had a lot with her character and the characters around her. Yeah, they just want to make decisions on her behalf, think they know what's best for her. And again, like, it's just very manipulative.

50:17 It doesn't feel it feels icky because it is icky. And you know, it's the Bourne sexy yesterday trope is annoying. It it it's not. Feminist like so. I think that's why you're upset. I feel like this whole discussion is going to make me think twice about my why, you know? Like, I understand. I understand where you're coming from, Caitlin, and I agree. Right, right.

50:44 I agree. The only thing that's kind of saves it for me is like these little subtleties to the male lead that he's not as overt, I guess, in his manipulation of her as the second male lead is. I think that's the problem I have with it though. I think the problem I had is I appreciated the second male lead didn't hide it.

51:06 Oh no. He didn't hide it, though. He hid it. He hid it to the. Audience to the audience. I mean like like. Oh, I see. As an audience member, we knew he was manipulative, we knew he was evil, we knew his motivations were not because he loved her, it's because he was obsessed with her and didn't want her, his brother, to have her right. Whereas the male lead and every other male to an extent, the emperor, the father with her mother, like you know, that type of thing, they weren't as overtly showing it to the audience or her, right.

51:46 And that was the other issue I had with it is like that's why I didn't, I liked the second meal male lead more, but I also just liked him more because I just could not connect with the main couple at all, especially the male lead and the female lead. But like that's, I think I just was looking for other things to appreciate and like and get me to the end of this drama.

52:09 You were latching onto anything that wasn't pretty. Much. Pretty much, yeah. Sorry, Liliana, What were you going to say? No, right? She's just shaking. Liliana's shaking her head because I think this is a this is a good. I feel like they just. But yeah. It is a lot deeper than just did you like the male lead? Did you like the female lead and did you like the plot? Did you not like the plot?

52:32 And why this is the why part is a little we're we're probing a little more and that's great. Only it is we're saying it's a little problem. It's problematic, right? Like. The IT is essence of the plot. I feel like I'm gonna, I feel like I'm gonna walk away from the review with like a very, what's the word with like an almost tainted image of the drama now.

52:56 I'm sorry I. No, no, I get it. I get it like where both of you are coming from. Yeah, I do. I just didn't I guess see it that way. Maybe because again, I wasn't necessarily thinking while watching and I suppose. You know, in your defence, Liliana, I will say keep the mindset that you did watch this though, cuz like I, I'm a very skeptical person. We all know romance does not really usually work for me. I'm a crime girly.

53:30 Like I find these things in a lot of dramas. So like if you love this drama and you appreciate the romance on this, like I don't want to taint that for you because it's but I, I think I was also watching this in terms of like I can't turn off my crime rate. That's basically what I'm saying. Like it's like I always view dramas like that. So and it's immediately something I catch on to because it is my background.

53:59 It is something I just always find no matter what I'm which is why romance doesn't usually work for me so. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that's something I. Don't think that's something that you, yeah, I don't think that's something you need to be like walking away from this and saying like, did I view this completely wrong? I think that's just a me problem. I don't think it's AI, don't think it's a you problem. I just think it's a different perspective. We're here talking through an older drama and there's nothing wrong with taking a little bit of a critical lens to it. And I'm happy to do it.

54:37 I'm running on 2 1/2 hours of sleep. I can talk about a little bit of how this is the feminist show and how the the boys are not. I mean, it's problematic that they're why are they falling in love with an basically an infant who doesn't know anything about love and can't really defend herself in any conversations that are out of her depth and she doesn't know the meaning of things and why, you know, why are you pursuing that person? All right, It's almost like you want this neutered child, right? Like, do you love children?

55:12 Are you, are you paedophile? Like I don't understand. OK. All of her, all of her characteristics are that of a child. Well, I think there was a lot of problematic men in this in general, mostly the heavenly guys in my opinion. Like the emperor was not a good dude, not at all the heavenly. But I mean that's that's a common trope in Shancha in general is like the heavenly people are never as godly as they should be. Yeah, I mean this one in particular, he was a womanizer. And he was, he was Zeus.

55:50 Yeah, constantly philandering. And his wife was. God awful. But The thing is with his wife though, like and I'll and I'll go back to what you said about Lao Yushi is like you kind of. I grew to have a soft spot even for her. Like I did. OK, I did. She I did when I when I like found her background when we learned about her background and their background and Lao Yushi's background like I grew to somewhat I still hated her like and she made poor decisions.

56:25 Lao Yushi's character made poor positions. I don't think I really had sympathy for the emperor. He was just a bad dude. But like I also kind of softened up on the villains a little bit once we learned the background, specifically Lao Yoshi definitely, but even the Empress, I kind of felt bad a little bit and could somewhat understand her motivation to to a point.

56:46 And then there was the point that the stuff that went over that point that I did it. But I also, and May and again, maybe that's because I was looking for things to attach to, but once we learn the background, I also kind of sympathize with both of them, as you said with Lao Yushi. I don't, I don't think you're wrong to, to sympathize with her. I, I think that's fine.

57:07 I think I took a more hard line approach to her because I always had this opinion. That's like, what do you got to be mad about? Like you knew this like once you know the full story and she knew that he was a flanderer. She knew, she knew that he was going to have concubines. Like it was like, why? Why demand something that was never going to happen? It was it was strange, it.

57:32 Was more with a brother. That's the that's the part I had sympathy on when we learned about his brother. Yeah, there was a yeah, the. Yeah. The other brother that. The thing with the Empress though, I will just say something. The thing with the Empress though, is she never really cared whether he was faithful or not.

57:52 It was the fact of him bringing in another son who would overtake Shufang for being next in line. That was all. No, she. Cared whether he had other women. I don't think she did a. 100. Percent she she was never, she was never really in love with him. Yes, she was. I didn't, I didn't see it a. 100% in love with that man, hopelessly obsessed with him, infatuated with the heavenly Emperor.

58:19 That flashback of what's her face, the second female lead sweetheart where she frames the snake guy with some other girl. Do you remember that? Like flashback scene where the Heavenly Emperor was making eyes at some other random immortal in a party, No. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this. Is when the green state was like I have been in love with the second female lead sweetheart like all these years secretly because OK.

58:54 And then he's like describing what the hell went down and why he's no longer of the immortal status and stuff and how he lost that status is because he was framed by sweetheart. But that the whole thing was she was trying to she was he was just a, a casualty like collateral damage because she was trying to frame this other girl and get her out of the picture and out of the heavenly realm on behalf of the Heavenly Empress who got insanely jealous that all they were doing was like making eyes in the party. Does that make sense?

59:27 I feel like I'm not. Yeah, OK. I kind of also agree with Liliana though too, because I think to an extent she was also trying not to have errors at all. Errors yeah, I she was an incredibly selfish individual and she just lost her shit like I bar none, she was murderous and spoiled. She was allowed to run rampant throughout millennia and he was just keeping earth her there for political reasons.

59:58 So she had all this leeway and like she knew he didn't love her, but she loved him. She wanted him and. It it was like she was like launching headlong into well, if if you're not going to love me, then my son needs to be on the throne. Like you need to give me this one thing then. So I don't know.

1:00:17 It's a little bit of both. I guess because she loved him also was spiteful and was like you need to give do me this solid then and put my son on the throne. Right. I think the spitefulness came out though, when he tried to replace her. I think I I like I agree with Liliana, where like she didn't care until Yangza's mom came along because he tried to replace her with her. You know, that was like different, you know, so I, I. Because I think with both, I think before he was just having minor flings, whereas was the fun, he was obsessed with the fun.

1:00:53 So I think that was the difference there is the fact that there would be a true potential for him to want to give her the Empress three seats rather than other people. That didn't really mean a lot to him. Right, because even like with Lao you she's mother like there was never going to have it was never going to happen that she was going to be replaced with her.

1:01:16 She might become a concubine, but like there was a difference with his mom versus young. Does his mom like a big. I think it, I think it really did. Develop, like for me, he never really loved Yangza's mom. He was obsessed with her and like the idea of her kind of emulating with Lao Yushi did with Yangza's character because he like locked her away and everything.

1:01:40 But at least that was more than what she did. He did for Lao Yushi's mother, and that was the threat anyway. That was more of a threat. I think on top of all this, the Heavenly Empress was just power hungry and she wanted all this power and so having her son on the throne added to that and being the Heavenly Empress, like holding on to this position was essential to her keeping. All of her consolidating, she had that. That was all.

1:02:10 And she said this just before she died. Was that like, my one thing that I always wanted was power? And then she offs herself. She jumps off the Cliff. I it was like all these confluence of things, right? That played into why she was just a crazy bitch. But how did we get on this topic by the way we're talking?

1:02:30 I was talking about, yeah, it was me. We got on this topic because of me 'cause I said I sympathized with the villains way. Earlier than I should have, OK. We can go back, we can go back to the time. 'Cause we jumped from, we were talking shit about the, the plot set up of her being this like infantile thing, right?

1:02:51 Because of the pellet, the perishing pellet. And then, I don't know, we got on the heavily Empress. Yeah, yeah. I don't think I said basically due to the parising fellas, I had to find other things I liked or right. That's how we got to it, yeah. OK, OK, why? Why don't we recenter? We can recenter. We can go.

1:03:11 Well, let's just skip ahead then to the mortal realm. I know we've skipped quite a few, but that's fine. We can have a little skip ahead to the mortal realm because we've already touched on it anyways. So basically they get Jin MI gets punished for something and she has to be sent down to the mortal realm.

1:03:35 No, she's not punished. It's that the. Oh no, she's not punished yet. She that. Lady that's in charge of the mortal, the mortal faiths was like, I've predicted that she's going to cause a calamity if you promote her to the immortal status, the Shengshen or whatever the status was because she didn't like deserve it.

1:03:57 She hadn't cultivated enough time. She was just it was because it was revealed that she was the daughter of the water deity and the flower goddess. She was going to get promoted immediately and she was going to have the flower deity title. And they were like, you can't do that because it's going to cause issues, like have calamitous issues. So they were like, fine, have her go down to the mortal realm and do a trial.

1:04:22 And when she has some hardships, she'll come back, have more cultivation. We'll give her the title then. So that's why they sent her down. And I don't know, like the mortal trial, just it picks up. Caitlin disagrees. So let's Caitlin go and have her word on this throughout the Mortal Log. Part of it is it lasted too long for me.

1:04:45 I think the mortal realm was too many episodes. I think that was one part because I just kept thinking like, well, when is she going back up? Like when, when is this? When is this going to be over? And again, it, I think it's really because I just was not, I was not happy with the main couple. And like obviously the mortal realm was like them having that second romance chance, you know, like kind of like that same thing. And again, because I wasn't, I was not a fan of this main couple.

1:05:19 I didn't really care, you know, I didn't care about them getting a second romance because I didn't really care in general. I cared. I thought it was awesome. And I'll tell you what, I did not like the freaking veil that was there for 20 episodes because, well, it wasn't 20. It was like 12:00-ish episodes. I could not stand and the stupid veil that they had on her, 'cause she was the saintist and all this stuff. And I was like, RIP it, RIP it from her face right now. Oh my God, I could not stand it.

1:05:52 I have this scene here that from episode 29 that I was like, oh, this is a good scene. It was the. Puppet show. Scene. Where the fire deity is trying to charm her and woo home girl and she's drunk after celebrating the day she joined the sisterhood. Which I would not, I would not celebrate the day that I joined the sainthood.

1:06:14 But OK. She's giddy, she is laughing and she's having a good time in front of the puppet show that he's doing. And she goes behind the screen and she confesses that she likes him and she kisses him behind the screen. The sexual tension is at an all time high. She's like breathing heavy and shit. He looks at her, thirsty, like come on, come on, I. Agree, I I liked that scene.

1:06:40 I think that. Was a great scene. To me personally, I think the mortal realm arc is kind of like where their love story almost starts because it they even come back to it and they say, they say to Shu Fong meet her like this is right at the end you go, she'll be waiting for you where you first fell in love. So, and they come back to the mortal realm and to that specific place where he found her or where she found him, you know, when he was injured as the king. So I feel like to me personally, the mortal realm is kind of like where their love story really starts. I like the fact that there was a lot of tension there. You know, they're on equal footing right now in terms of they haven't got, you know, any

1:07:35 magical power. He hasn't got any of his. Well, he is a king and she's a St. just but apart from that aspect of it into it's just like almost human to human. There's no magic involved right now. And I like to see how she like the pellet starts to break that. Well, it breaks almost completely in this in this in this. I went to be fair, I wished it would have just broken, but that would have not set up the rest of the story, I suppose. But I, I quite, I quite like the coffin scene where she's reminds me a little bit of like till the end of the moon and their coffin scene, although that was way more toxic and way more unhealthy than this, I would say personally. But I, I, you know, that's quite

1:08:28 a good scene. And especially, especially because she is there. He just doesn't see that she's there because she hasn't quite gotten back up. And then he dies and they kind of like he sees her again and they hug and then they go back up together. I really liked that. You know that part of of. I agree. Of the mortal mortal realm, I, I, unlike Caitlin, didn't think it was too long.

1:08:54 Personally, I think mortal arcs are always something that I dislike in general, but in Ashes of Love, I almost don't mind it because it is like a breather for the both of them for a little bit. So I, I liked the, you know, I quite liked the mortal realm are in general. So. So yeah, say what's up?

1:09:19 So one thing. So I think the other reason why I didn't particularly like the moral realm is I was more interested in what was going on with Lao Yuji's character during it. Let's talk about it. Especially like his whole background coming out and yes, everything this. Was an like an embarrassing exposition dump that they did in like 2930.

1:09:44 Yeah, and I think because I was bored, I latched on to that a lot more. Like one of my favorite scenes in the entire drama was him fighting. Yes. The Empress, yes, and with like the water thing, that was 100. Percent. Yeah, I loved that scene. That's a great scene. Because I also liked that this realm, this this arc also kind of him starting to become a villain.

1:10:11 It made like cuz I mean in the before the mortal realm you kind of could predict that this was going to be a love triangle type thing and like because they were so happy go lucky before the whole spiral happened. I was like, oh they definitely are gonna have a love triangle and some brother is going to rebel against the other brother. It happened to be low issues character, but I could see like that scene, that fight scene with the Empress was like, oh, This is why he became famous after this drama. Like like that scene is why he's known. Yeah.

1:10:49 The other thing that I really I couldn't. So let's pause here because I sorry, 29 through 30 is is the are the episodes you're talking about? Yeah. The second male lead reunites with his mom. There's this big exposition dump about his conception, his mother's Arwana tribe downfall, what his father did and all this shit, and how as a child he was manipulated by the Heavenly Empress to abandon his mom and take a pallet to forget his whole childhood.

1:11:19 Which I thought if you were mad about this lady giving you a pallet to make you forget your whole childhood and make you forget the love you had for your mom and make you forget like all this stuff that happened to you as a child, why would you continue the cycle and fix the pellet on the female lead?

1:11:40 Yeah. It's extremely toxic and manipulative. He is a toxic character though, regardless of the way you spin it. He is that's. Why he's a character. Pleasure to like him. It's awful like for him to he after after seeing the pain that he was in, after realizing what he forgot and all of these things and how he was in the wrong, even though he didn't know it, he did the he inflicted the same pain knowingly on her, on the female lead.

1:12:10 Crazy, crazy stuff. Then the scene you're talking about, they'll fight at the lakeside. I was shocked. I was like, I don't remember any of this. This is amazing. The there was so much wire work, the explosions. They set off charges on land and on the water. It looked incredible. The mom fights and then, well, sorry the moms, both of them fight.

1:12:36 And then that bitch the heavenly Empress murders his mom in cold blood even after Renew is begging on his knees to spare her and it makes no difference. And this moment when he turns around like she strikes him, like the heavenly Empress strikes run you, and he turns around slowly to face her with this murderous rage in his eyes and then him levitating all the water droplets fuck out of here. That's amazing.

1:13:11 That was an amazing scene. So great. 10 out of 10. No notes. And I just wanted to draw more attention to it because I had the I wrote it down. I was so. Enamored with it, it was so great. Yeah, that was probably by far one of my favorite scenes of the entire drama. Like I even like what is the action of.

1:13:32 I even threaded it, wrote it on threads, wrote it on Blue Sky, whatever. I can't say tweet anymore 'cause I don't use it anymore. But like, I was like, I just saw the best scene of Ashes of Love ever. Nothing will top this like blue. Yeah. I I think I will say on a rewatch I appreciate Louie and she's acting way more now re watching it now than I did when I first watched it. Because when I first watched it my focus wasn't on him if I'm going to be honest.

1:14:04 It just wasn't because everything was so new to me and I think I missed a lot of the nuances when I first watched it. Whereas watching it a second time around, knowing the actor that he is, knowing the micro expressions that he can produce and the duality that he has, I think I appreciated not his character because I don't necessarily like his character because you're not supposed to, I don't think.

1:14:33 But I appreciated his acting way, way, way more this time around for the ability that he has to start the show off as a character that technically is very lovable. I think at first he is a very likable character for the 1st half. Not even half well first third of the show, but then. I mean, as soon as he manipulates the dad into upholding the marriage alliance or the marriage contract, I was like, I remember like messaging you guys in the DMS and I was like, this guy just did.

1:15:13 I don't remember him doing this. I can't believe he just did that because he he talks in such a way. In that moment, he had Jimmy say that she liked him and the dad was, of course, the dad. I don't know what the fuck he's thinking because he should think she's got the pellet. She shouldn't like anybody. She didn't know that.

1:15:37 No, nobody did know that she had the pellet at that point. He knew that she had the pellet the. People at that .0, right? Not at that point, not until she was like, I've been absent. I've been an absent father. If she likes him, she likes him. I'm not gonna destroy that. You're totally right. He she had some other seal on her that he took her to get removed, but it wasn't.

1:15:58 That was because that was because she had her her water magic sealed in so they wouldn't know she was his daughter. OK, OK, never mind. Never mind. But yeah, so the dad was like, oh, great. Well, now I have to uphold this old promise that I made to the heavenly emperor because these two are in love.

1:16:20 Vile. It's like dirty work that Renew is doing. That's not till I think they come back from the mortal realm I don't believe. Oh, that's before. That's before. It's yeah, it's right before yeah, because it her stone thing wasn't even cracked at that scene. The other thing that I kind of was like, OK, was the whole at first, at first when we find out that her like handmaiden person in the mortal realm that that second girl.

1:16:52 The Oh my God, yes. At first when we found out that she was poisoning her, I, I was like, oh, like somebody's manipulating her, blah blah blah, blah. And then we find out that she's doing it so they can leave. I'm like. Yeah, Ruru took it upon herself to poison her. The Santis. Yeah, that was. Why?

1:17:13 She forgave her. And I was like, no, OK, like that. I was like, OK, all right, that was wild to me. That was that was that was wild, 'cause I was like, OK, someone has to be making her do this. Like the, the the father guy has to be making her do this. Nope, Nope. It's just. Under no duress. Yeah.

1:17:37 Just came up with that herself. Yeah. Yeah, that was crazy. No consequence. And also that whole thing with the fighting arrow, like the fight over the arrow. Oh yeah, the yeah, that was a Mac guffin. The whole show I was just like, just someone please shoot it. Like like why does it have to? Hang, I want you to for. For 20 episodes.

1:17:57 It's because it's because Moodsy catches it, but he doesn't want to actually do what the Empress wants him to do. So he's trying to find a loop around to be able to say that she he's doing what she wants, but without actually having to do it. So I think that's why there's a whole fanatic going with that because if they get shot with that, that's it. There is no, there's nothing they. Just they don't want to become murderers. They don't, Yeah.

1:18:27 Because there's no rebirth. There's nothing like they die die on both realms. So I don't I think that was why it was being slung around because nobody actually wanted to use it except to her, who probably did want to use it to kill Jimmy off, but she never really got her hands on it. So I think that's why it was being thrown around, but nobody actually wanted to use it. Correct.

1:18:52 Correct. Right. So. Episode 34, we have to talk about it. 34 What was 34? Oh, 34? Yeah. 34 So he, because he brings Shufong, brings the red Lotus lamps up to heaven from the mortal realm, preserving them in his palace garden thing. And then they drink a Samantha's wine that she made before they went to the mortal realm, and she conjures up some red Lotus blossoms on real Lotus blossoms on the water. And they're having, like, this picturesque, beautiful little date night.

1:19:32 And he goes ahead and asks her if she'd be willing to marry him because she was willing to marry him in the moral realm. Is she still willing? And she says yes, that she'll talk to her dad about negating the marriage agreement. And that night they have sex. Yeah. I wish not. I didn't remember any of this.

1:19:54 And they just did. Did your favorite scene Jess with the Phoenix? I die. When? His like little phoenix like started flying in the sky. I was like wow, I forgot, I forgot, I forgot. And then her, she's got like a flower that's like budding. And I was like, gross. They do definitely make it very obvious in this one.

1:20:18 There's no, Oh yeah, no leaving to the imagination. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Hmm. So, but that's already, yeah, that's when they already come back to the the heavenly realm, which is, that's kind of like the, you know, the calm before the storm really. Because then her father dies, her aunt dies and she's on the warpath to finding out who did it basically.

1:20:50 So I I don't know, this is probably one of the parts that in the first time that I watched it, I binge through it because I just needed to know what the heck was going to happen. Especially after she kills him. Technically you find out later on that that stabbing alone would have not killed him had Ron you not messed with him, but that's besides the point I suppose. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

1:21:19 I feel like we're skipping a little bit because in episode 36, I have this note here. I don't know if it's like too much, if it's too much on Runyu. So I'm going to go in on Runyu for a second because he in episode 36, he lets out his true form again, which is a white dragon. And I guess she's the only person who's seen his true form once at the beginning of the show and then another time right now in episode 36. And he's like caressing her face and he's trying to bring her face closer for a kiss.

1:21:53 And it feels super icky and kind of like a horn dog maneuver. And I when he like unfurled his tail, I was like, this feels like a dog penis, just like flopping out. And it's just like his giant dragon tail. Like what am I supposed to do with that? And then he asked her if she loves him. And then even if she doesn't love him forever, like it was like strange, strange, like tactic that even if she loves him faintly, love him. Please love me faintly forever.

1:22:32 And I was like, what is going on? She sidesteps it and just leaves. She's just like, it's late, I'm going home. And I was like, yeah, same. Because like the tale and everything, that was a lot. This is the night that he intrudes on her while she's sleeping, looks at the cracked pellet and fixes it. And I was like, what?

1:22:55 He says Direct quote. Do you know how painful my heart was then talking about seeing the dream from the yen beast of them fornicating? Right. Yeah. And he goes, I'd rather that you don't know about love in this life. Let you not love anyone. Let you be unable to love, let you not love again. And then he says, I've lost everything. Don't leave me and kisses her full on on the mouth while she's asleep.

1:23:21 Villain. That's a. Villain, of course. Yeah, Oh my. God. Well, even when they're in the motor realm, she's like he. Even when they're in the mortal robe, he's like spying on her and him the entire time. He's like manipulating when they're meeting, when they're not meeting, like that whole thing of him freezing time, Yeah. And whatever.

1:23:43 Like it's just get it gets worse once they get back. Yeah, yeah. It's just he's going to villain. He's in his villain era. Yeah, but like I have to separate this from the coup that happens later, him messing with the heavenly Empress and getting revenge for the everything that happened with his tribe. Like, I don't care that he staged a coup. I think, I mean, that's a wild he staged a coup, but I'd still over her like it's over.

1:24:17 Like both of them were still fighting over her. Like that's the whole. Thing, but that's The thing is that like if, but I don't like care about the outcome that he became the Heavenly Emperor and that the heavenly original Heavenly Emperor died or committed suicide and all of this other stuff, like all this retribution that he gained.

1:24:37 Great, happy for you. But what about Jinni? Like, I'm so upset about all of the shit that he did to Jinni that it like almost outweighs all of the free passes that I'm giving him for everything else that I'm like, yeah, it's fine. Because that's, I think that's a way bigger violation. And also it's the fact that when he stages the coup and all of that, you don't really care because you don't really care for the characters that he's doing it to.

1:25:06 Whereas with Jimmy, I feel like that's a way bigger breach of trust and he just becomes, you know, and. Reprehensible. Yeah, yeah. I don't think it's forgivable in any sort of the word. I always despise the kiss while they're asleep type situation, especially when they're not in a relationship. There is no way, you know, to forgive that.

1:25:33 I think so I think like those everything else, I could kind of be like he, he's he's fine, but like when it comes to his dealings and him because he does, he violates her in a way that. Yes. Not OK. So I don't think there's any coming back from that. There never was. But from that specific scene, I don't think there is any coming back from it at all. But the other thing that was driving me nuts too. And granted, he repaired the pellet so it obviously turned her back into the.

1:26:07 Reset. It was a hard reset. It was a hard reset, which I was like, Jesus Christ, just break the thing already. But also it's just like again, I'm like, again, it's I know it's a drama. I know they have the last 60 something episodes, but I'm just like, girl, you need to do some critical thinking here.

1:26:25 Like it obviously was not him. Like think about it for two seconds but. The thing is, at that point, yeah, at that point, with her knowledge, there was only two people in the realm who could use fire, right, Specific fire. One was in prison and the other was Shu Fung in her defence. And also she saw him. She Shu Fung like sue her transformed into shufung and she saw it in one of the dreams like I I don't know you know how else she could even if part of the figure was the pellet. Was repaired like that's the thing. I think the problem was the pellet was repaired. I think if.

1:27:08 She didn't have that love for him right there. Right, Right. Yeah. I think if it hadn't been repaired, she would have investigated more. She would have believed him more, you know she would have. The loved love would have contributed to her questioning it. Giving him the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, giving him the benefit of the doubt, you know, so that I think it wasn't necessarily the fact that she didn't believe him and she didn't investigate it. I was mad that it was repaired and we were having a hard reset at that point, which made me angry at her character because I was like dude, come on.

1:27:46 The thing is, that's not her character's fault. I know, I know that I. Know like I can get behind a lot of what you're saying, but when it comes to that, it's not her character's fault. Like I get it, she has no feelings. All she sees is. It's kind of. Chiffon killing. I mean, you know. And you just feel like the the aftermath of seeing your parents, well, your step mom and your dad just turn to ashes and dissipate right in front of you after you finally got what you always wanted, which was a family, a place of belonging and identity.

1:28:25 And like all of this stuff just stripped from you. And then there's if they were brutally murdered and you don't know who it was, but it's just two people like it. It's kind of hard to reconcile because she's also going through all of this immense grief. And that moment where she accuses him in front of the memorial tablets is a great moment that I remember just sitting here and she just kind of, well, she pulls a gun on him too.

1:28:53 Like she pulls the knife and puts it out in his throat. And it's like, it's only two people and your mom is in prison, so it's you. You've done it. He's like, how could I do it? I can't do it. You know, I'm going to investigate and all this stuff and just kind of reassuring her that it was not him that killed her parents. And she just collapses and says, like, I don't want to kill you. I just want my dad back.

1:29:16 And I thought that was a very powerful moment because she doesn't even want to kill him. She just wants what she wants is her father back and alive. And I think everybody can relate to that, to just being like, you know what, like, fuck it all. I just can we just reset what just happened. And I, I don't want any bloodshed.

1:29:35 I just want my person back, and that's something she'll never have. It's an impossibility. So it's heartbreaking. And I feel for her in that instance. And I also felt for her as well during the actual wedding slash coup in episode 43, when she gets triggered by the pure glass fire that he was like in the middle of conjuring and she thinks back to the dream that she saw. She gets overwhelmed by the weight of her family's souls closing in around her and begging them to save them. And she just like, she almost doesn't even think in that moment and she just like stabs him. Right.

1:30:16 To have it end. Yeah, yeah. But even before that too, I was a little annoyed with her character because she kept constantly searching for reasons of like to marry him. Like, she was doubting the marriage as as going into it, even if she did not like Shu Fong due to thinking he killed her father, which at that point I was like, OK, like, yeah, every clue is pointing to him.

1:30:46 I get that. I get like this whole thing. But you're doubting marrying Runyu. Yeah, you're doubting. You're literally finding every reason under the book to delay it. We even with the pellet in you, whether that's your dad's death, whether that's a funeral, whether that's whatever, whatever. Like I'm just like, why go ahead with it? Like you're always.

1:31:09 Because it's the Father's last wish. I know, I know. I mean, she was just like grief and it's the last wish like. Girl. I know, I know, I realize that. But I just, I was just like, you're still having doubts, like you're driving me nuts because I know you're doing this because it's your father's last wish, but the. Father also had a conversation with her and was like, you know what, whoever you choose, whichever one of them you choose, fine, I'll support it.

1:31:36 And he, he was very gentle with her when he said this and she was like, thank you so much. But that night he dies, that night he's murdered. But she doesn't take that bit where he's like, I'll support you no matter what. She took the fact that he was gung ho about this wedding for years and stuck with that bit. Yeah, so even up to that wedding, I was like, girl, you need to make a decision.

1:32:01 Like, I know you're in grief, but you need to make a decision. I did not like her character even going up to the wedding. She's. Very wishy washy. Yeah, extra and we know this. I do not do well with wishy washy characters. Like I really don't. Even if you have a pellet stopping you from loving it and the fact you were still wishy washy.

1:32:20 I'm just like I completely understand the grief part. I completely understand like the whole stabbing part even though it created more strife and misunderstanding. I completely understand why she chose that. But I still was like, you're too wishy washy for me. I get it, I get it. I the scene the scene of her stabbing him is ingrained in my memory.

1:32:42 I still remember it from the first watch that I did in 2019, 20/18/2019 and him slowly turning to her and whispering why and her screaming back. You know why. It's you who killed my father. It's you who killed Auntie Ling Chu and him squeezing out. Have you ever loved me? On his knees in front of her, clutching her bloody hand and she just says never. No, yeah, yeah.

1:33:11 But then you also have that whole segment right after where because of that, the pellet does come out and all of the feelings hit her at once. And I know, I know Caitlin is not a fan, but I think that scene specifically does show it was good acting. I I. Oh no, I told no. I was about to say that I agree.

1:33:33 That was good acting. That was good acting. I will totally 100% agree with you on that from everyone. The image of him dead at her feet, yeah, and then of her collapsed next to him. Next to him. And spring like, what is love as he turns to ashes? What? Yeah, you cannot be immune to like. This whole scene, I can see why that scene is like the one of the most famous scenes of this drama. Yeah, absolutely.

1:34:00 Yeah, it's amazing. Right. So the last stretch is basically. Renew on the Fritz On the Fritz. Yeah, Menu goes crazy and he does. He does. Jin me basically coming back, trying to save Shufang and his spirit, and then Shufang becoming demon Lords. I'll tell you when he became demon. Lord, the first time I saw this and he became demon Lord, I was like, no. He can never become demon.

1:34:31 Lord, Oh my God, why? He's the heavenly universe. He should be the heaven. Oh my God. This time I did not give a shit. I was like, yes, become the demon Lord. You look. So good in black, Oh my. God, that transition, the demon Lord transition in episode 50 was so sexy. When he holds up like the scepter and it transforms his robes and does his hair up. I was like, yes, I'm here.

1:34:59 I'm here for it. Totally here. For it to me, one of the last things that I kind of want to touch on is the wedding scene, the, you know, Demon Realm wedding scene because a lot of shit goes down in that scene and that's where everything kind of comes full circle where. Wait, I want to talk about the proposal that he does to the second female lead in episode 53, which I also remembered in great detail when I came across it.

1:35:29 I was like, is this that scene? Where? He uses her, a piece of her true form, to propose to the woman who killed her father and stepfather. I was flabbergasted, flabbergasted. It was crazy, crazy. And then he returns the piece of her true form to her because he knew she was there. Crazy, crazy. And she finally says that she loves him. And he's like, well, I'll never forget that. You told me that you never loved me when you stabbed me in the back.

1:36:05 And he doesn't believe her when she says, oh, well, I had this perishing pellet. Like the perishing pellet story. He was like, whatever. And he threatens to kill her next time she declares her love. Diabolical. Diabolical Writing. Yeah, yeah. That whole scene is crazy. I really was devastated the first time I saw that scene. I was like in in shambles.

1:36:30 Couldn't couldn't console me. Yeah, I think I like the first time I watched it, I was the same. The second time, not so much because you kind of know what's coming. So I don't think it hits quite as much because you've lost like that surprise factor, I suppose. But. But yeah, I I that scene specifically because she's like, that's it.

1:36:54 And then she's taken back to supposedly marry Ronyo and she's just like, you can see she's just given up. She's just like, yeah. Done. Yeah, yeah. And. Episode 55 'cause this conversation really quick, this one that she overhears with it's Renu and the second female lead. So we have she they're speaking together and all is revealed.

1:37:21 He tampered with the pellet. He left out the heating element in the life saving pellet that they gave to the male lead. And basically he's been the mastermind behind everything. He knew Xufeng was not the killer. And the list goes on. The list goes on. He's he's been manipulating and been the puppet master for forever. And he used her as a pawn, knew so many details that he didn't share with her.

1:37:49 And I love that she like loses her shit. She's like heavenly emperor, what else would you like to use me for? And I was like, oh, that's hard. That's hard. That's how she starts the conversation. Yeah. So I loved that whole thing. And she was like, you're horrible. It's just she's just so disgusted with him and she's challenging his love.

1:38:09 She's like, you'd never loved me, only loved yourself. Like, how could you say don't profane the the name of love and all this stuff? It was amazing, amazing confrontation. Yeah, and what does he do? He locks her up again. Yeah, Yep. Because apparently that's the answer to all of his his problems. If I can't have a, no one else will either type of situation. Exactly, which is how the whole war happened. So I going back to the wedding, though I had a maybe I just didn't understand what was going on to like to a point. I did understand like the demon wedding, not not the not the mortal the demon wedding, the demon wedding. So like, OK, for I'm going to back up a little bit. I was annoyed with both of them.

1:39:02 Obviously she thought he still killed her father. He obviously she still had stabbed him. So they had animosity between the two. And obviously he like just walked in and didn't see the second female lead make the fire and try to hit her when they she went to get the pellet to save her friend, the demon friend who was poisoned that dude. So I was annoyed with all that because I was like, dude, just make up already.

1:39:29 We have 5 episodes. I okay. Like. Yeah so the wedding happened the the uncle dude and the demon guy knocks the second female lead unconscious and keeps her from going to the wedding and then they put Yangza in the place. I could not understand and I rewatched the scene and I don't know if I missed something.

1:39:53 I'm not sure like why they did this but like why did they tie her up and then like puppet master her into doing the wedding? Like because she didn't want to go, she didn't want to do that. She was going against her Well, she was going to stay in the flower realm to make sure the. Flower. Was. OK. And they were like, yeah, no, we're not doing that. We're going to take you to the Demon Realm. And when they got there, that's when they were like, oh, let's replace you with they were always going to replace her as the bride, but they didn't know that there was a, they had this other plan that they.

1:40:31 Already I was a little annoyed by that choice because at that point she knew. Unless, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't she know that he didn't kill her father at that point, right? Yeah. So my, in my mind, it's like, oh, like when they were setting that up, right? I was like, oh, she's going to go down and replace her and they're going to have this wedding and they're going to declare their love and it's going to be very satisfying, right?

1:40:57 And then they pulled this thing off and she's being puppeted through it. I'm like because because there's still have doubt like you still are like. No, it's not the doubt that in. Her head in her head in her head Shu Fong has been very clear that he's going to marry sue her and the scenes that she's seen between them he's been very loving towards sue her so in her head he does not love her he said so to her and he has made sure she is aware of that fact and she you know and sue he's in her head he's in love with sue her so what's the point of her forcing her way into a marriage that there is no love between them so why would she put herself in that position like that if I I would have hated it

1:41:47 she. Was like he doesn't want me. Yeah, but I'm still going to go in like that. That would have been way, way worse than her being controlled to do it. OK, OK, I personally didn't like the control thing, but I think I just didn't understand the full concept of it. I would have liked her to just do it herself. Yeah, the.

1:42:07 Uncle, the red string Uncle and the snake were like, these two people are being really stubborn and they love each other and we're just gonna play Cupid here and make sure this switcheroo happens. That's why they puppeteered her. But like she, for all intents and purposes, she has. No, she's just believing him. Finally, everything that he says and does, she's taking about his word.

1:42:32 And she's like, well, he hates me. I stabbed him in the back and he's mad, understandably. And he's going to marry this other girl who happens to be the murderer, the true murderer. But like, he doesn't believe me. He doesn't believe anything I say. So like, he doesn't want me. He doesn't want to see me.

1:42:50 I can't. I'm not going to show up at his wedding, let alone like replace the bride. So. Yeah, right. Yeah. So that was the thing. I didn't particularly like how that wedding went out. But like, I don't think I, I also acknowledge I probably didn't understand the full picture of what was going on at that moment 'cause I, I like, kept repainting it.

1:43:09 I'm like, OK, how did they get to the point of puppeting her in that? Like, did I miss something? Like, did something get cut off 'cause it's a sicky 60 episode thing? Like, I don't understand how we got here, but yeah, I didn't particularly like how that played out. In my opinion, your your explanation, I still didn't really like how it played out, but like, it makes a more understanding of like why it played out the way it did. So yeah.

1:43:35 Yeah. Right. Should we just skip ahead to the? End, then let's do the ending. Wrap it up, let Caitlin get let's let's Caitlin go 1st and then we can finish it because we know she didn't like it and then we can finish it up on a more. Positive note cushion what I say Yeah, so obviously the whole coup happens, Obviously the whole war happens, and obviously Runyu is like full on toxic second male lead and wants to start an entire war and destroy everything to get her back on his side, even if that means locking her up for the rest of eternity. And destroying everything she loves. And destroying everything.

1:44:13 Yeah. And her. Friends. Yeah, obviously that's bad. What I did not like about the ending was like, after all of this happens, after all of this. And I do understand. So let me preface this by saying I do understand why they went the direction they did. I don't think it was enough for me in terms of his character, specifically of his ending.

1:44:39 I did not like his ending. I understood why they went there though. I did not like the fact that he still ended up being the Heavenly Emperor, and I also did not like how chummy the two leads were at the end. I didn't understand why because he literally was going to destroy everything just to have her.

1:45:05 Yeah. And they base, and I, I mean to an extent I kind of understood it because she ended up dying because of them, that they could not see past her and see past the him, his obsession, his Shufang, the love. And she ended up dying because of this, because of the war they created around her. But I'm just like dude, if I had a brother that literally killed my wife in front of me because of his obsession because he started a war because of her, I would not be playing chess with him and like drinking with him.

1:45:46 I think it'd be no contact at that point. Yeah, like, I didn't understand that. Like I didn't understand why they were like so chummy at the end. And he was, oh, I mean, I understood why he got the Heavenly Emperor. Because Shufong did not want it. He did not want it. He didn't want to do it. He wanted to go live in the human realm and find his wife. Like I got that and obviously Runyu I guess was the only option.

1:46:13 But I'm like, you should be in prison. He should be. He should be not running the entire I've like I would not trust him as a citizen of the heavenly realm to be the Heavenly Emperor when he literally tried to run us into the ground obsessed with this one woman. So I that's the big part of the ending I did not like because I just could not understand.

1:46:38 Obviously to an extent I couldn't understand why they chose to go that direction. I also liked the second couple, the demon couple, even though I knew that that the the the demon guy, the guy in the couple work was going to die. Like that was kind of foreseen. Did I like it? Not so much. I with the second couple was set up. He was going to die because he became human. He only had so many years, obviously. Yeah.

1:47:08 So I knew it was coming. I wasn't happy with it, but I knew it was coming. I kind of expected that he would end up being reborn in some way, even as another human again, but that never happened. She just ruled by herself. I like that she became the queen of the demon realm. That's fine because he obviously also didn't shoe Fong didn't want to rule the demon realm or the heavenly realm.

1:47:31 But yeah, I think my main issue with the ending was like the punishment didn't fit the crime. In my mind, I felt like ruin. You should have been in prison and me as a citizen of the heavenly realm would not have wanted him to be my emperor again. Granted, I understood his ending because he did. He ended up with nothing.

1:47:50 He ended up with nobody wanting to be alone. Yeah, he ended up alone. He ended up with no queen. He ended up with no kids. He ended up with no people in his court like nothing. Yeah, he alienated everybody. Could not. I could not understand the chumminess at the end. I really couldn't. I just was like, really? Yeah, I mean.

1:48:09 To an extent I sort of understood it in aware of like they were grieving together, but I don't know. I would not have grieved with the guy who pretty much started a war to kill my wife or to like kill her or take her away because nobody was going to have her other than me. I just, I couldn't, could not understand that aspect of the ending. Liliana, do you want to weigh in? No, you can go.

1:48:33 You can go and then I'll wrap up the episode and finish it up with my thoughts, I think. I, I agree with you. Bottom line, I agree with you. I think it's strange that they went this route, but I also think it's might be because of our Western perspective that we want justice, we want retribution, we want revenge, we want the punishment if it's a crime. And in the East, I feel like so many stories don't take that route.

1:48:59 They go the route of reconciliation, they go the route of forgiveness. They take the High Road and I'm all about the low Rd. like personally. So yeah. So when Renu and Xufeng are kind of OK at the end, it's very jarring to see. It's because they were so at odds, they were willing to kill each other. Renu, like, merged with some sort of demon thing, spirit, I don't even know what the fuck it was. And he had to be exorcised at the end of the show. I mean, it was really strange and it it kind of like thrown together at the last minute.

1:49:39 I feel like not particularly. I think the other thing that. Really threw me off with his character too though is like he eventually became the Empress so why did she like in terms of the murdering aspect and like starting? He and then he repeated history because his father did the same thing. He killed his brother, killed his father, took the throne. So like why?

1:50:02 And then he ended up getting. Murdered her like murder, but why does she end up getting like death for her punishment while he ended up chumming with her brother at the end? Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Oh, you're talking about Suhua and how she Is that who you're talking about? No, I'm talking about the Empress when the the Empress Empress like the Empress the heavenly Empress who like he fought when his mother died.

1:50:27 The heavenly Empress ends up dying after she murders people and does all those horrible things herself. He ended up becoming somewhat her by the end to a better, in my opinion to a worse extent, but he's still pretty much murdered a ton of people and started a war and yet he ended up being chummy with his brother at the end of it and did not get the punishment that the Empress did.

1:50:53 I feel like at the end of this all the women characters got so much worse punishment than any of the male characters. You're not wrong. Like, I don't disagree with you like. You're not wrong. I will say, Liliana, I will agree you talked about this on a really other completely other podcast episode.

1:51:09 How harsh the punishment for the second female lead was. I didn't. I couldn't picture it when you described in the other podcast episode like how drastically harsh that punishment was until I watched it. It was bad. It was one of the worst punishments I've seen for a character in the Chinese raba in my life. I will totally agree with you on that. But yeah, in my opinion the female characters got worse punishments than the male characters and I didn't really agree specifically with rude news punishment. Yeah, I think for him, he didn't covet the throne as much as coveting Jimmy.

1:51:48 He wanted her. He, you know, he just wanted Jimmy. He kept saying don't leave me, don't leave me, don't leave me alone. And at the end of the show, he's left alone. So even if the punishment doesn't fit the crime, if it's the character. So I don't know. And I agree with that, which is why I understood the direction the story went. I didn't agree with it, but I understood it because it fit the character.

1:52:11 And well, I think we've had this discussion before and I think it was about 10 miles of Peach blossoms. And like there was one person who I said, I don't think they've redeemed him enough. I don't think they've punished him enough. And I think Jess explained it in a different way of for that specific character, it was punishment for them. So I think where I'm coming from is, although for, you know, Ron, you yes, I agree he could probably gotten harsher. He has the throne, which he never wanted and he is now stuck ruling over these people, which he never wanted. And he has no family around him.

1:52:56 He has nothing around him. And I think that last shot of him is very impactful of him on the throne by himself because that's kind of where he like, at least at the beginning, him and who Fung were brothers. They had this very, you know, they had a bond, regardless of how you see it. They did strive to, you know, they weren't exactly at each other's throats. They drank together and they had fun together. And he at least had that aspect of it. But then he gained friends, he gained a family and he lost it all through his actions.

1:53:33 So I think there's something to be said about the punishment kind of fitting the character herself. So for example, for SU Hui's character and even for the Empress's characters, there was nothing else you could do to them. Nothing. I mean, the Empress had lost her, you know, her son in essence, and SU Hui had lost everything.

1:53:58 There was no further punishment for them rather than death at that point. So I can see why they went in that direction. And I can see why for Ronyo, even though yes, I could agree he probably could have been punished way, way more harsh, especially compared to, you know, the female, the female's characters.

1:54:19 I can also see why that punishment fit fits him so well because he's just up there alone ruling over something he never wanted. And he lost the family and the chance to have a family. So I think his punishment kind of fits his character and in essence, so that's what I would say about that aspect. And then to me personally, I felt like it was a satisfying ending.

1:54:48 We don't see these very often nowadays. A lot of shells just tend to be very open-ended. You get 2 seconds or you get nothing. So I still appreciate the fact that, you know, you got to see our main couple and they got exactly what they wanted. They never wanted to be in these power struggles. They never wanted to be anything more than just together and living their life, which is what they got.

1:55:13 So they set up in the mortal realm out of everybody's reach, you know, And I appreciated that we got to see, you know, their son. We got to see, you know, just them living a really quaint life, which is all they had ever wanted. So to me, that was a satisfying ending. So yeah, the moment when the kid came into frame and was like, this is how my parents met.

1:55:38 I was thrown, thrown, thrown, thrown. And that happened the first time I watched it. And I'll have to tell you, that happened again. I was like, this is still such a strange choice. Right. Have you guys got any other things you'd like to mention? No, I think, I think we've said our piece. I think we've shot on this show enough, no? I've tried to not do that as much. I really enjoyed it.

1:56:09 It was, it was once I get some sleep, maybe I'll think differently, but I really enjoyed it for the most part because the bulk of it right, like just the 1st 20 episodes was not great, but the last bit of the show I was in, I was into it. Right, that's it guys. That is the episode. I hope you guys have enjoyed it and we shall catch you next time.

1:56:32 Bye bye. Bye.