The Romance of Tiger and Rose Review with Corinne and Ayanni (Ep. 107)

0:00 Hello and welcome back to the Tea and Sochi C Drama podcast, your safe spot for C drama chatter. I'm your host, Liliana, and it's time to sit back, grab your tea and let's chat Asian dramas. In today's episode, we have two very special guests and we are going to be doing a review on the romance of Tiger and Rose. So just before we get into the podcast, some housekeeping. If you like the podcast, please like, share and subscribe on the platform you listen into that really helps the podcast to each other listeners.

0:33 For more content, check out Patreon where you can find behind the scenes, first impressions, movie reviews and more. Finally, if you would like to chat to me or find a community, check out Discord, Instagram, and other socials. The link for my socials and the guest socials will all be in the episode and notes.

0:51 So guys, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourselves? Yeah, All right, so I will jump in first. My name is Corinne and I Co host the Sex Love Literature podcast with. Ayani hi hello, I am the other Co host of Sex Love Literature pop culture podcast and the producer of the show. We're excited to be here.

1:17 I'm so excited to have you guys on. I think I discovered you guys when you did the big. I think it must have been. Was it last year that you reviewed? Oh, my God. I'm blanking on the name. Oh, it's a Chinese drama that you guys do forever. Yeah. Lost you forever. Oh, my God. You know what I mean? This happens all the time.

1:39 Like I think that's how like I came across your podcast and I was like, you guys, I really like this. So because you guys did a huge review on that, you know, on that drama and yeah, yeah. But but it was a really good one. Like I I really, really enjoyed it. So just so that, you know, guests or listeners get to know you a little bit better, just talk about, you know, let's just talk about how did you guys come across, you know, Asian dramas? And then how did that turn into a podcast? Because obviously you don't just do Asian dramas, but how did you guys then decide that you were going to do, you know, a podcast?

2:25 Yeah. So that's like that's actually kind of like a good sort of intertwined question. Yeah. So so first, I guess how I got into Asian dramas was actually in the summer of 2020 when lockdown was happening. I happened upon AK drama on Netflix. The one I started with was Cinderella in the four nights, which is like cute.

2:49 It's. Fine, it is, yeah. Like, it's fine and I liked it enough to keep going. And so I watched Crash Landing on you and then that was it for me with K dramas. And then a couple years ago, I was starting to get like, not bored with K dramas, but like wanted some, I wanted something a little different.

3:08 And I saw a lot of chatter about the C drama Love like the Galaxy and started watching that one. And I was like, oh, I, I, I like this. And then that was kind of like it for me. But like, simultaneously in 2020, Ayani and I, who went to Graduate School together, we're both, you know, sad and lonely during lockdown and thought it might be fun to start a podcast. Yeah.

3:37 I mean, we were watching a lot of the same things, and we're talking about a lot of the same things. So it seemed just kind of like a natural progression. And I had wanted to get back into podcasting anyway, so I was like, Crin, why don't we just like, record ourselves having conversations? That's a really normal thing to do. And yeah, so we've been doing that for about, I guess, four years now.

4:01 We started in August of 2020, and it just not stopped. But to rewind to the first question, so I've actually been an anime watcher for a really long time. I started back in like middle school. So I won't let you do the math for how long I've been watching anime. So that was, that's kind of like my main end to thinking about Asian dramas.

4:27 But I'd watch some J dramas in high school. And then again in the summer of 2020, Corinne was like, you need to watch Crash Landing on you. And I was like, sure, OK, why not? And it completely devastated emotionally. We watched a lot of it together because we were in the same like, quarantine bubble.

4:52 So she would come over to my house and then we would just sit on the couch and sob. Man, yeah, Drop is a journey. It is. It is. And so that's kind of where I went from there. I'll often take Kirin's recommendation. She's like, you'll like this one. And I say, sure, OK, I'll try it. Yeah. And then there's some others that I've kind of spiraled off on my own, but I've been watching, I guess, K dramas pretty consistently, though at a slightly slower clip since then. I'm.

5:23 The binge watcher of the two of us. Yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm much I'm more plotting when it comes to my watching and then when it comes to see dramas. Since we're talking about 1 today, Corinne was like, you need to watch love between fairy and devil. And I was like, sure, I love love and devils. So I'll check it out for for some context, some of what I study is like monsters and monstrosity. So she was like, that's a really easy in for you. And I loved it.

5:51 It was great. Again, devastated me emotionally. But Romance of Tiger and Rose I think is my third seed drama that I've watched. Yeah, so lost you forever, I guess was your second. Yeah. Maybe count that as two because of lost you forever one and two, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's Part 1 and Part 2.

6:10 Yeah, that's because, you know, they wouldn't like because that would have been like a 70 episode drama and they were like, no, not going to happen. And it's really annoying because they just missed the cut out for when they were airing them back-to-back. And I was like, because that's exactly what happened with Love Like the Galaxy.

6:33 They there is 2 parts, but they were like, we'll just add Part 1, finish it one day and then start Part 2 the other day. Those were the good old days. And now, yeah, now everything's is broken up into, into, into parts. Or I think a lot of the dramas have just gone down the route of we're going to be 40 episodes or under and air it all in in one guy because there's a lot of risk in like waiting a year.

7:02 Oh yeah. Like everyone's got to keep their nose is clean. Pay those taxes. Pay those taxes. I think that's like the most common meme amongst like Chinese drama watchers. It's just like God said, just pay your taxes. For the love of God, just pay your taxes. So, so yeah, I think for the, for the safety of the drama as a whole and to try and get like as much money back, a lot of them have just gone down the route of, you know, we'll, we'll just be 40 episodes or less. And it's really interesting because I've been doing a throwback series on the podcast where I'm watching like a lot of the older Chinese classic historical dramas and like a lot of them are like 70 episodes, 80 episodes. And I'm like, this would have

7:57 just not happened nowadays. It's just not a done thing. So. So yeah. But I think when it comes to even now, even with the cut, Chinese historical dramas tend to be like the best of Chinese dramas when it's I, I they're moderns. There's really good moderns, but they're moderns just aren't as good to me when it comes to historicals.

8:22 That's like where you know where where they shine a lot more. And so, and then how just talk about some of like your favorite Asian dramas. Oh, before we get into that, actually, I just want to say that's where I started. I started with anime. Like my partner was an anime fan and that's where I started as well.

8:43 I watched a bunch of anime even before I started going into Asian dramas. And then Netflix was like, you like this and it was a Chinese drama. And that's kind of like how I made the, you know, the change over, but anime was just, and I've recently gotten back into anime because I didn't watch it for a long while.

9:07 And then I watched My Happy Marriage and I was like. I oh, I love my happy marriage. I love for this and it kind of reminded me of how much I enjoy anime. It was that and also the Apothecary Diaries. Another one really good. Apothecary Diaries so I can't wait for both like the second seasons next year, but yeah I I'm back on my anime zone now so and it's like it's just easy because like episodes just slot 1 episode in they're very tiny and manageable so you're. Used to like 70 episodes C dramas fitting in like a 20 minute anime episode is.

9:51 Easy. Yeah. It's like, yeah, Well, to be fair though, I think for me it's never bothered me to have long, long episode counts because my first ever Asian drama was 63 episodes. It was Ashes of Love, which is like an epic romance Xiancha. And actually it stars the same lead as Lost You Forever. It stars Yangzu from Lost You Forever.

10:17 So it's like, it's an epic. It's 63 episodes. There's so much happening that like the story is like gods and demons and all of that good stuff. So I binged that in three days flat. I was like, I, I had not done that because I used to do that with like books. I would just devour books very quickly. And I still do, I still do nowadays. But that I, I was off for off work wasn't working because I had like Christmas holiday.

10:55 So like we close up the place that I work for like 2 two weeks almost. So I was home, everybody was working and I was like, I don't have anything to do. And Netflix was like, you should try this press play on episode 1. And I looked up and it was like 7 O clock in the morning. And I was like, what happened?

11:17 Like what even happened? And then yeah. And then I slept for about 3 hours and went right back to watching because I was like, you know, it's like it's something because everything was so new to me. Like I had never watched anything like it before. So I was like, this is this is great. And funnily enough, I'm re watching ashes of love now because I'm going to review it for the podcast.

11:42 And I was so worried. I was like, Oh my God, what if I don't like it? This is why I don't like to re watch stuff because I'm like in the back of my mind I'm like, what if I don't like it as much as I did the first time around? But so far, I'm loving it just as much, but like in a different way because I can appreciate it in a different way now more context later. Yeah.

12:05 So. So yeah. So that's like how sort of say, like long episode counts. They don't necessarily scare me too much. So. So. Yeah. So guys, what are some of, like your favorite Asian dramas that you've watched so far? A good question. OK, so favorite can be a little hard when you have like a long history in your brain, but I know some of the ones that are kind of on the top of my mind right now. I really loved Free Run Beyond Journey's End, which is an anime that ran was it last year that was just spectacular. I think I cried every episode from episode 1 to episode 9. So it just kind of left a big impact on me. But from the K drama end of things, one that I actually kind of want to go back and watch

12:57 because of how much I loved it so much was search WWW. Oh yeah. Yeah, which was I think it just made such a big impact on me. I decided that one of my favorite and I'm putting quotes around this, but like genres of K drama was like the three women friends. If they're three women and they're friends, I'm going to watch it because that's search www.39wasthreewomen being melodramatic. So if they're 3 ladies and they're going through it together, but they love each other, that's like crack to me. So good.

13:29 And then, I guess, I don't know, I had a viewing hangover after Love between Fairy and Devil, so that should probably be on that list, right? Because I think I just couldn't watch anything for like a week after. I was just too. I had to only watch empty fluffy things, you know? Yeah, that was that was a lot.

13:51 So yeah, we'll go. We'll go with those three at the top of my mind right now. Love between fairy and devil is just that drama for a lot of people. Like it's very epic. It's very, it's very classic Shiancha like Chinese fantasy. It's very like what they do is their bread and butter in an essence, because you won't find anything quite like it anywhere else because it's so attuned to their mythology and like their, you know, their stories that it's really hard to compare it to anything else out there, I think. But love between Siri and devil just came out of nowhere. And then everybody was like, and everybody was like Chinese dramas, Chinese dramas, my goodness. And then like last year with

14:40 hidden love with again, that's Azalushi drama with hidden love. Everybody like everybody and their mother was like hidden love, hidden like. And for someone like myself who's been following like Chinese dramas for six years now, it, it was like all of a sudden people were like, it's OK to watch Chinese dramas because there's a very, a lot of the time there's this like barrier almost that just isn't there as much with K dramas because K dramas have blown up so much that people find it fine. Like there's always new K dramas over on Netflix. So it's become like more commonplace. But we see dramas, a lot of people are like, as soon as they hear that it's Chinese, it's like, why would we want to watch anything that's like Chinese?

15:28 Because, you know, but I think love between fairy and devil and then hidden love afterwards, that really like blew people out of the water. And then they were like, oh, they're actually like good Chinese dramas. So yeah, it was really nice as like a long time watcher to see all of these new people kind of like discover something that to me it's just like something that's very normal because I've been watching it for such a long time.

15:59 So, so yeah, I, I love between fairy and devil is one of the very few things that I actually like have merch from oh, find it's hard to find, but it is out there. I have like stands and I have a mug and whatnot and like enamel pens. But I love much like I, I wish I could get my hands on more of it, but it's incredibly hard, like as an international viewer to get stuff.

16:26 But but yeah, what about you Corinne? Like what are some of your favourites? Yeah. So I'll maybe I like keep my dramas in like separate lanes based on country. So I'll focus maybe on my favorite C dramas and I think probably OK, so these are not dramas that I think are perfect dramas, but I think they sort of like encapsulate like what I like. So those would be like till the end of the Moon, where like the end was a mess, but I was just like neck deep in that drama the whole time I was watching it Lost You Forever, which I just adored.

16:59 But, and again, the end is kind of a mess of Part 2, but like I enjoyed the characters and the journey so much that I'm OK with it. And then a modern that I really like is Meet Yourself. Yeah. I love Meet Yourself. Meet Yourself is like my safe spot. Like I adore that drama so much. It is such like a comforting drama, like I it just kind of came out of, I mean, I watched it like a year after it aired, but like that one, I watched it, I was like, oh, like this is the Strama is something special. Like it's like a bomb bomb for your soul a little bit. So Meet yourself.

17:36 I watched it while it was on air and it was like how I always describe it is it's very slice of life, but it deals with so much. And how I always say is to me, watching it on air, the experience that I had was that I was coming home and I was like, yeah. And and like being hugged a little bit. And I was like, you know what? Just checking in on on like friends almost. Yeah.

18:02 And that's kind of like what I got from it. I I love to meet yourself. And I think for the other two for till the end of the moon and lost you forever. Both of those are very much victims of what we were talking about earlier of the episode countdown, because like for Lost You Forever, it was meant to be like 70 something episodes.

18:24 Until the End of the Moon was meant to have been 54 or 56. So I think that really shows in the editing, which is really frustrating because if you watch like a Shiancha, like, you know, 10 Miles of Peach Blossoms or Ashes of Love, which I like considered very classic Shiancha dramas, A lot of people will be like, yes, they are much longer, but they are definitely worth the like the episode counts and everything wraps up so much better, which is something the new episode count hasn't allowed, you know, people to figure out is like how to wrap everything up but like cut it down and what not.

19:09 But hopefully because those were already recorded as longer dramas and then had to be cut down, hopefully all of those are now out of the way. And the new stuff that we're getting has like they know they need to fit in 40 episodes. So hopefully they can do it slightly better. But yeah, for me yourself, have you watched?

19:29 Go ahead. I have it that's on my list. I I really want to watch it but like I'm afraid it will make me cry a lot so I've been like waiting until I have like the emotional bandwidth to deal. The reason I say that is because the screen, it's true, screenwriters and the director are exactly the same as Meet Yourselves and you get the same you get the same vibes as Meet Yourself.

19:56 But this is like on a much smaller scale of the found family. It's very focused on the. Found family and it's it's, it's just, it's beautiful. It's honestly like still one of my top dramas that I've watched in terms of like modern day dramas. It's it's still yes that it will like I cried, but it's still got a very hopeful message. You know, I love it.

20:23 So, so definitely I would definitely and I would absolutely check it out before you because there's a Korean remake. I haven't watched it. I haven't watched it. I'm not going to just because there's no way I can be fair to it because I just love the original so much. There's no way I can like separate it in my head. And I feel like that will be very unfair to the Korean remake because I just don't think, I think I can be like, I can see those characters as anything, you know, anything else. And also from what I've heard, the Korean version focuses a lot on the romance, whereas the romance in the original, it's, it's like a tiny, tiny portion and it's like a lot of people's least favorite part of the

21:14 original. So. So, yeah, so I think that's it. So shall we get into this review today? So I'm just going to go through the MDL synopsis and then we can start, you know, just having a little chat about it. So the MDL synopsis reads. Having finally sold her TV series script, aspiring screenwriter Chen Xiao Qian soon falls under the scrutiny of the male lead, who refuses to act out the role.

21:45 Vowing to make her script successful, she starts rewriting while napping. She is transported into her own story, becoming the third Princess Shen Chan Chan, a side character. Armed with the knowledge of her own script, in which her character is soon to be killed in the third episode by Prince Han Shu, the male lead Xiao Qian is determined to stay alive and find her way back home.

22:12 So this is adapted from the web novel Shuan Wan Zong Dusan Gong Tzu, and that is written by Popsicle. Now, a lot of like web novels people won't put through their like actual names, especially if you're like a Dan May writer because you're not supposed to write those things. People just go like through ghost names because that's, you know, easier. So the cast we've got the wonderful Zao Lushi. I mean she doesn't really need any introduction. She's been in love like the Galaxy hidden love. She's currently starring in the story of Pearl Girl, so she absolutely needs no introduction. And then we have Dengue Shi who plays our male lead hand shoe and he's been in stuff like Moonlight and he's been in things like Love you 7 times, so

23:06 he's been around as well. I just don't think he's quite had like his big break role as a but we shall see where that lands. And then we also have Zhu Zhu Chin who plays a Chen Chu Chu and we have Shang Ying Hao who plays Pei Hong. So that's kind of like our main cast. So Zhao Zhu Shin. So she is the what we call the second female lead.

23:34 She's been in stuff like cute bodyguard, royal feast and hands and siblings. And then Shang Yang Hao, he's been in the intimate game of Proof of silence and the Ladies Special. So that's kind of like the things they've been in. This is directed by Char Schwan Yee and he's directed a flying Tiger, I Will Never Let You Go and Fate Blooming. I have watched nothing from this director except this, which is quite interesting because I tend to like at least know one thing or the other.

24:05 But no. And the screenwriter, it's the same. So the screenwriter is Nan Zen and they've done My Girl and The Furthest Distance. So this is 24 episodes. It had all the way back in May 18, 2020 to June 1st, 2020, but I think it was recorded in 2019. They recorded it earlier on in 2019. Chinese dramas always like when we're watching them, you'll be guaranteed that they would have been recorded like at least a year in advance, if not more. But so it the original network for this is 10 cent video, but you can find it on Vicki.

24:42 You can find it like for us Europeans, it's sweet TV, not ten cent. And then the episodes are about 45 minutes and the MDL score for this is an 8.5 and the Doban score is a 7.3, which is really good. Like a 7.3 on Doban is really, really good. So we'll just go into talk about the non spoiler section.

25:08 So in this section, we're just going to basically talk about whether we enjoyed it or not, you know, and whether we would recommend it to people. So for me personally, this is a re watch and I feel like this is a very nice, light hearted, you know, watch. It's very bingeable actually because it's only 24 episodes so you can watch it fairly quickly or even if you're slowly watching it, it's funny at times, a lot funny. I think the comedy in this is fairly good. The acting, I was just saying earlier on, basically it's very interesting because while I'm watching the Pearl Girl at the same time as this, it's like a completely different Zalushi and it's very nice to see kind of like where she came from. This is one of the dramas that I

25:59 think really blew her onto the scene and a lot of people started following her after this specific drama. So it's it was very nice to kind of like rewatch this and kind of see her role in this because I feel like she's very good at comedy and she does it very well in this drama. So I overall really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the rewatch.

26:23 It was, it kind of fitted my mood in right now because it's, you know, just very light hearted. But yeah, it still touches on quite interesting things because once she goes into the into the book or into, you know, into her TV script, it's quite interesting that one of the world's, you know, one of the territories is ruled by women and then the other territory is ruled by men.

26:48 So it does still touch on very interesting topics, even though it doesn't really dive too much into them. So yeah, I think I overall really did enjoy it. What about you guys? What did you what did you think? So this was a first watch for me, and I think reaching the end, I'm kind of in the middle of the road.

27:09 I think there were things that I did really enjoy about it. Like, there are a lot of characters that I thought were fun, and I would text Corinne my reactions to things, and I found myself getting stressed about like, the wrong things. Like there were things that you were supposed to be stressed about and I was like, but what about this minor plot detail?

27:29 So they're definitely characters that I became attached to. But then there were some other things that I don't know, kind of started to grate on me a little bit as the story went on in a way that I couldn't really bypass. So it was kind of this balance of like there were definitely folks that that I wanted to follow and know about their story and then other things that I was like rolling my eyes a little bit while it was happening.

27:57 So yeah, I'm kind of down the middle of the road. I wouldn't not recommend it, but I think I would recommend it with an asterisk, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so for me, this was a rewatch. This was actually one of the first C dramas that I watched cuz my my first C drama summer. I watched love like the Galaxy and love between fairy and devil. And then like in the breaks between that while I was waiting for a new episodes, I watched the romance of tiger and rose cuz I was looking for more Xiao Lucy. Excuse me because I was looking for more Xiao Lucy and I loved her character and love like the Galaxy so much that like I think I give give the character here like more, more grace maybe. And then she deserves Yeah,

28:41 because I I think it's just such a funny performance. And so so for my rewatch now, like I do think it really held up for me. Like, I still really, really enjoyed it and I appreciate it a lot more of the meta commentary now that I'm a lot like deeper into C dramas and like, a lot more of the, like a lot of just like the irony and like the references and things like that that were going on.

29:05 Yeah. It's still like, I think as any sort of satire does, doesn't necessarily fully work at the end. Like when you press on like the gender flip too hard. It doesn't quite hold up, but I enjoy it so much and like the cast and the characters so much that like, I think it's just like a fun romp.

29:25 That is what it is and is absolutely worth the time of watching. Yeah, I think it's one of those dramas that it doesn't take itself too seriously, and if you're going to go into it, you kind of need to go in knowing that and knowing that you're not going to get. It's not like you're not going in for a masterpiece.

29:45 That's not like this is about if you want, you know, a masterpiece, you'd probably watch something like love, like the Galaxy, where the story and the plot is very intricate and there's a lot of connecting and moving aspects to it. But if you just want a straight up, you know, ROM com fun, then this will probably be it. And I think sometimes that's that's all you you want really. Sometimes you just want something you can sort of turn your brain off and be like, oh, this is, you know, funny and I can, you know, have it and I can watch it for the time being. So I think that's definitely like with this stems from. But yeah, I think overall, for me, it does still stand up to what you know it.

30:37 And I think, did I watch it? I can't remember if I, I don't think I watched it live, but I think I watched it pretty like quite close to when it just stopped airing back in 2020 because I was already watching Chinese dramas by then. So I think I watched it fairly early on and now I think I give I give Chinese dramas a lot of grace a lot of the time.

31:02 The reason being is that they don't have a lot of freedom. So when it comes to stories like I think censorship plays a huge role in anything that comes out of China. And I think I always give it a bit of, you know, grace. And it's really difficult to know specifically what they're going to ban in the next six months or whatever.

31:26 So there was a time where they couldn't have any time travel or there's a time like any this type of drama, you don't really see a lot of it. So, so yeah, there's like rebirth stories, they have to spin it another way because that's not necessarily allowed for for censorship. So I think a lot of the time I I give dramas a lot of grace for when it comes to, to this sort of aspect.

31:54 But yeah, I don't think this is like one of those dramas that is going to blow your mind, but it'll it'll entertain you for 24 episodes if nothing else. Then for Zalushi doing, you know, a bang up job at doing comedy because she doesn't do that fairly well. So I think I think it's her personality that shines like her real, not her as the character, but her as like that. Was she?

32:23 Because if you watch any sort of behind the scenes, she's always like having a great time and she's always very like trying to make everyone laugh. So especially in variety, she's naturally very funny even when she doesn't mean to be. So I think that like that comes through. So yeah, I think we can just rate it and then we can get on into spoilers because I think that's when you could like get into the nitty gritty. So the ratings, so how it works it. So we have one teacup, which is it was something I watched. It wasn't good, but something made me finish. And that's like your 1 to 5.5 on MDL and then two teacups. It's the OK ones.

33:08 Drummers I don't really recommend, but they were an OK background watch. So these are like your 6 to seven on MDL 3 teacups is the enjoyable ones, the good dramas. They were enjoyable and I would recommend to people who enjoy this type of genre. And that's like your 7.5 tier 8 on MDL 4 teacups is the loved ones.

33:29 These are dramas that I really loved. There might be a couple of problems with them, but overall an enjoyable drama and I would recommend to a wider audience. And that's like 8.5 tier 9.5 on MDL. And then like, you've got the five teacups. These are like your rose glass tinted, you know, dramas where you can find no faults with it. And by this I mean, this writing is reserved for those dramas that you love so much that you're willing to ignore any of the problems that they may have.

34:01 So these are like your elusive 10s on MDL. Like you like what Jess would call them your God's tear dramas. That's where they come from. So for me, I would firmly put this at like a three tea cup. It's very middle of the road. Like I, it's not, you know, something that, you know, I, I don't even know how to explain.

34:26 It's enjoyable, but is it something that I really loved? No, I don't think so. I think I can like in a year's time after rewatching, I'll vaguely have a, you know, an idea of what it's about, but I don't think I'm going to be like remembering every detail or, you know, very specific scenes or anything like that. So to me, that's like very middle of the road that I enjoyed it and I would recommend it with like the caveat that you, if you to enjoy this type of genre, like your ROM com, your comedy kind of thing, then this is probably for you. So yeah, so that's my rating.

35:04 What about you guys? What would you rate to this? I'm also Team 3 teacups because I think there are a lot of bright spots, but they're just some things that in the spoiler section, we'll get into that. I had a little bit harder time like wrapping my brain around, but there was there was a lot of, there was a lot of bright spots.

35:25 So like, I think that makes it at least worth recommending. Yeah, 3/3 for me. So for me, I think I'm a little between 3:00 and 4:00, but I'm gonna tip it over into four just because I'm so fond of like that Lucy and also like the I. So I wouldn't recommend this as someone's like first C drama or a really early C drama. But if you've at least have like a couple under your belt and can like appreciate the meta satire of it, then I think it works really well in that lane.

35:57 So actually interesting note because I think in in 2020, we had tried to watch this together and this was yeah, that would have been my first C drama. And I didn't make it past Episode 1 because I was like, this is not for me. So we were we were looking for like a meta ish drama after watching the K drama Extraordinary You Yeah, so like that is a genre that I really like, but it yeah, it didn't hit yet when I didn't have anything to compare it to.

36:25 Right. And it's like, I'm familiar with Isaqai, right? So I get, I get how these kinds of stories work, but it just, yeah, it didn't land at that point. So I think that's a really good point. And also, lol on tip, Corinne, good pun there. You're going to tip to the four teacups rather than the three I caught that I heard.

36:43 You, yeah, you can always do like I always say if you're you can always go middle of the road and do a .5 because we do .5 I'll. Stand by my four. I'll stand by my 4. Two guys. Yeah, but we could always, Yeah, I think, I think it'll be very interesting if either of you guys watch Love Game in Eastern Fantasy because the setup is slightly different, but it's similar at the same time, because she does fall instead of a her own TV script, she kind of falls into a game.

37:21 So she has to like complete the task to get out of the game. So it's, you know, it's set of but it's now four years later. So they've moved things and shaking things up a little bit. So if you guys do get to watch it, you'll have to let me know what you think you know about about that one. But yeah, so guys, this is your spoiler warning if you haven't watched it. I mean, this is a four year old drummer at this point, so if you haven't, we're going to spoil the heck out of it. So if you've watched it, go ahead and you know, carry on listening.

37:59 If you don't like spoilers, this is your warning. Go watch it, come back. If you like spoilers and you haven't watched it, then keep listening. So this is your spoiler warning. So the spoilers, now everything's on the table. I think we can start by talking about characters themselves. And I think it would be, you know, I think the only character we can really start with is Zalushi's character, because she's the heart and soul of this drama for me. I I just find that there's something very good about Zalushi playing like this type of almost ditzy sometimes character in the sense that when she falls in, she's very all over the place and she just wants to get out of this face and she doesn't know what's

38:50 going on. So that was quite interesting to me to see her in this sort of character. But it reminded me because in her last couple of dramas that she's been putting out, she's been taking on more serious roles. And I think like the romance of Tiger and Rose, what I compare it to is the romance of Tiger and Rose is very much an idol drama.

39:13 And then we have like, you know, the dramas she's been doing more recently, which are definitely or high caliber kind of dramas, but her comedic timing in this, it's, it's, it's so funny. I this, there's a specific scene that I'm remembering where she's completely mummified into these, you know, she's been wrapped up because she was injured. So she's got both her arms completely wrapped up and she's just walking around, you know, with her arms held up. And I'm like, I don't think there's not not everybody could sort of hold hold out that comedy and it come across and it be not necessarily believable, but it can sometimes come across as like tacky or, you know, a little over the top. But when she does it, it's like,

40:02 Oh, I can laugh along with that. That's, you know, I I enjoy that aspect of it. So what did you guys think about like her character and you know, even her growth as a character throughout throughout the drama? Though I also find her just so charismatic that she's just so fun to watch on screen. And her physical comedy, like you said, is very, very good.

40:27 And like watching it as even like the second time, I just like was laughing a lot. Even when the plot wasn't like especially clever or surprising. I was like, oh, like it's she's just so funny that I'm willing to let like a lot of the more chaotic or uninformed things she does slide a little bit more than Ayani, who I think had some hang ups with some of the choices that she was making. I mean, yeah.

40:56 You can go ahead. I mean, you can speak on it. Speak. So I will say I really liked Chenchen as OK, so the actress was fantastic and she was deeply hilarious. And so I enjoyed watching her while also being annoyed at Chin Chin like the entire time. Because what I kept thinking is this woman is a terrible writer.

41:18 So like, I know she's a screenwriter and I know the whole setup is like, you don't understand love girl. Like you can't write a love story. You don't know what you're doing. But then she kept like doing all of the tropes in in this media that drive us crazy. So and I understand that it's a satire, right? So I understand it the way it's poking at those things. But in poking at them, they were playing them straight. So just like, why are you making these decisions? You have watched dramas before, you know how this works. So there was just so many times that I was like, why are you such a bad writer?

41:55 Why? Why are you using these tropes? You know? So that that just kind of drove me a little crazy. And it was hard to like sync up how much I was enjoying watching the actress act with how annoyed I was getting at the acts the character was doing. See, I think that's like, I always find it interesting because I feel like there's very, very few actors or actresses in my opinion, if a script is bad, it's very hard for, you know, a actor or actress to pick up on it and like do something with what they're given in an essence.

42:32 But I feel like Zao Lushi is one of those characters that like you're saying we, you know, you don't necessarily like the the actions she's taking because she's like over here trying to get the plot on, you know, on the back burner. But then she she's trying to like get it going. And then she's making all of these decisions, which to us as a viewer, a very obvious that are going to go wrong.

42:59 Like it's so obvious that these are not going to work. But yeah, you still enjoy the actress herself. And I think that's quite special that even though you're very frustrated with the character, you're like, but, but, but why am I enjoying watching her still like the these are not good choices, make better choices. But why?

43:27 So, so, so yeah. So I think one of the reasons, sorry, that I cut her maybe a little bit more slack, her character a little bit more slack, is that I feel like she knows what genre she's in, but she doesn't know what her role as a character is. So like, she is so convinced that Tutu is the female lead and that Hanshua is destined to end up with Choo Choo that she makes decisions to try and they make that happen for far longer than she should.

43:57 Like she does not fundamentally understand until like episode 16 that no girl, you're the female lead now. Yeah, you've changed the whole plot now. Like there's the point in you trying to get this story back on track. It's never going to go down that route. And I think it's because also, so she's meant to die in episode 3, like that's the whole lot of it. And as soon as she doesn't die in episode 3, like that's it. She's changed the whole story now. So there's no point.

44:34 And I will say she is very clueless about like it was like Ayani was saying she's very clueless about the fact that the male lead very quickly falls in love with her. Like he becomes and then she's clueless in general. I'm thinking specifically of an episode where they're meant to be like trying. I think it's the episode where they have to blow up the mine or they have to do something about this mine and. Because the miners are trapped.

45:08 Yeah, the miners are trapped and she wants to get them out, but she's like, they've put her under house arrest, so she can't really go anywhere. And she's just like, I need to get somebody to help me and like Hunch who is literally there going me like I want help. And she's just like, oh, maybe I should get, you know, true, true to come and help me or I should get a pay shock to come and help me.

45:31 And she's like and she sends her maid off to call for the second male lead. And Hanshu is just like, Oh, for the love of God life. So she in general, I feel like she's a very clueless character for a lot of the drama. But so, yeah, I think that leads to some, like you were saying, some very questionable choices on her end.

45:56 Yeah, and I, I think just the cluelessness was stretched a little far for me because it was hard to sync up that she is a writer, right? Even if she's not the best one. She did get a show picked up, which means that there was something of value in her script, right? So she's a writer, but she's making all of these really clueless decisions about the running of the script.

46:20 I don't know. I don't know. I don't know it. It did lead to some funny sequences, like when poor on show is trying to get her to pay attention to him in that mind sequence like that is deeply hilarious. And that she, like, will look him in the eye and then turn to the left and be like, oh, but Pei Hong. And it's like, girl, wow.

46:39 So I guess I think it was how long that went on that kind of drove me a little crazy because it's like, OK, I get it. At the beginning, you're a little like you got sucked into a book. This is not normal things to happen. You know, your character needs to survive and all that. But by episode 16, I'm like, girl, you have made your sister look like a fool.

47:00 How many times you can't tell she's pissed at you now. You can't tell that like you are upsetting people with your behavior. I guess it was kind of at that point that I was just a little like, OK, can we, can we get with the program? I think even that is a little bit of like a, like you were saying, it's a very satire and very throw because so a lot of C dramas, one of the biggest complaints that a lot of people have is not as much now.

47:30 But if you go back like two or three years, and I think it's specifically in the era that this drama came out, people would just over it because a lot of Chinese dramas were very waterlogged. They were very filled up to the brim in the essence that they wanted more ad space and people were just stretching dramas for the sake of getting because the more episode counts you have, the more space you have to like fit ads in and you get a lot of revenue in that way.

48:04 So we were getting like, so just a just a like quick comparison for K dramas, you may get like 100 dramas out, like 100 Korean dramas out in the year. And that's if you put like all of you know, long format, you know, weekend everything. So you may get like maybe maybe 100K dramas in a year, like Chinese dramas. If you put everything together, you're looking at like 900 or plus in a year.

48:34 Like there is a, they put out a lot of content. And if you go back say, you know, 2-3, four years ago that was the case. They were just picking quantity over quality. And there was so much coming out constantly. It was like this churning of dramas, and they were necessarily not good. And they were stretched out and they were, you know, very filled up to the brim. So I think like this is a prime example of where they're kind of like throwing a little bit of shade at that. They're stretching things out to like sort of because that's what a lot of people complain about nowadays. That happens much, much less.

49:20 First of all, the quantity of dramas that they, you know, have is much less. But even saying that, so the main platforms that's Yoku Aichi and we TV or Tencent, they have like they're they have like the thing, I don't know what it's called. It's kind of like a seminar of sorts where they basically present everything that they're working on and like they it's like a grab attention for it from advertisers to people. And like they had theirs in the past couple of months, like in last month or three of the major platforms had theirs and they all have 100 plus dramas in the works. Like that is a lot of content still. So I think that is kind of like what I need is I think that's like that stretching out as a

50:18 view where we get very frustrated. And I think they were kind of like stretching it out in the essence that, you know, that's that's what dramas tend to be. I think even that was a slight comment on, you know, what was happening at the time. It's not as bad now as it was back then, but back then it was, it was bad.

50:37 Like as a Chinese watcher back then, I was like, this needs to stop. So that's why I think that's why I think like the 40 episode rule for some dramas, it's a blessing. And despite because it's like for historicals, I don't think so because historicals need, I feel like they need. And by historicals, I mean like the serious historicals, not like, you know, Romance of Tiger and Roses, like a period. It's like a period costume.

51:04 Not necessarily like a, you know, serious historical, but yeah, I think I think I would agree with you that, yes, certain things were stretched out very, very far and she's so clueless for so long of it. But even saying that, I still enjoyed it. And I think, like Karine said, I don't know if it's necessarily because I enjoyed the character or if it's because it's Lushi. I do wonder if this had been any other actress, whether I would have just been like, I'm too annoyed at this. I can't, you know, I can't continue. And I think nowadays, if I was watching it for the very first time nowadays and it was another actress, I think I would have a lot less tolerance than I did, you know, four years ago. Because when I watched it, I was

51:57 in my I will watch anything phase. I won't drop anything or as now I'm just like, I'm not enjoying it. I'll I'll let it go. So what about our male lead? What about Dingyushi? So he plays the character of Han Shu. I I liked his character. I think even his comedic timing was quite good. And I will say to this day, this is still the only Dingyushi drama that I've like completely finished. And it's not necessarily.

52:30 But The thing is, it's not necessarily him as an actor, it's his drama choices. He picks any bad. Scripts. He really does, really does. And The thing is I think he's a very capable actor. I think he has very good like micro expressions. Yeah. So so, you know, not quite on par with actors. Like for me, for example, like the king of micro expressions to me is someone from till the end of the moon. Like that is like hot tail micro expressions. But like, didn't you?

53:09 She is still, you know, like, fairly good at playing these roles. And I really liked his character progression because he comes in and he's very much like a man on a mission. He's going to, you know, get get revenge or whatever. He doesn't want to be married to her. He is going to bring down this Kingdom that is like he's very set on what he's going to do.

53:32 And then very well. I don't even think it's that slowly, because very quickly he like starts falling in love with her. And I mean, even his entry into the drama where they sort of first me and, you know, it's very over the top where he jumps out of the carriage to grab her and he's like very much in white and she's in like this very bold red color. So I really actually enjoyed his progression as a character. I think it was a lot of fun to see him go from this like cold, closed off character to someone who almost feels like a golden retreat, almost like in love with her. So yeah, I I really enjoyed his character as well. So what about you guys?

54:20 What did you think? So I really like his character and I liked it the first time around, but the second time around since I have seen in the interim the see drama Goodbye My Princess. He feels like a direct reference to and commentary on the male lead from Goodbye My Princess. Which you haven't seen, right, Liliana?

54:42 I haven't because I I treasure my sanity that I. Mean correct? But so I I it is on my list to watch again just from the day Bach. If we do any sort of like episode together as a drama trio and it's like any slightly historical or any recommendations, She will always say goodbye My Princess because she loves angsty dramas and she loved Goodbye My Princess.

55:15 She went in absolutely blind. Twitch. Oh man, at least I knew what I would getting. Oh, boy, she, she went in Blight and she was like, I'm in for the ride. I'm here for it. So. So yeah. But I, I heard that. Goodbye, my Princess. You have to be emotionally ready for you. You do but so. And I. Yeah, so the male leading Goodbye, My Princess, for people who haven't seen it, is set up as a tragic hero who is so set on gaining power, on getting his revenge that he, like his actions lead to the downfall and genocide of the family of like the woman he falls in love with. And he does has the same sort of, his initial setup is like the same sort of subterfuge that Hanshua's character is like set up to like that that's who Chen

56:10 Chen Chen wrote him to be. So it's like, if you take that character who was meant to be a tragic hero who like, falls and then turn him into like, this puppy dog that, yeah, it's just super interesting to take like, oh, like, but what if this guy made different choices, actually, instead of the ones that led to, like, high tragedy? I like Honcho.

56:35 I like him. I don't I don't really have deep thoughts, but I kind of appreciated how he had to kind of whiplash through all of these different emotions throughout. I felt like it was acted and played really well. And even though I have not seen Goodbye My Princess because emotional devastation, I don't think I did at this point in time. I can definitely see the kind of character that he's playing off of, right?

57:07 Kind of self serious, self important, but like wounded with a tragic back story kind of a thing going on. So I don't know. I enjoyed watching him fall so hard for Chen Chen and. They had some, really. Cute moments together too, you know, like after they got drunk and laid in the bushes together and she snuggled up to him for the first time and he was like, oh, maybe I actually kind of like this. I was like, OK, you're, you're adorable Sir and and I support you in your love.

57:39 Yeah, and I, I, I agree. And I think overall, the overall consensus I think in general is that these characters just aren't that deep. It's not like one of those, it's not like one of those dramas where you have these very layered, very, you know, for lack of a better word, these like very meaty characters. This is not that show.

58:07 They're very like, they're very superficial and it's not necessarily anything that the actors have done to make them feel that way. I think that's just how they were written. If anything, I think the actors give them more depth than they were. Ready to have? I would agree. Yeah, I would agree with that as well.

58:27 And I think that becomes even more obvious when we come to talk about so Chen Chu Chu and Pei Hung as characters. Because I feel like especially for Chu Chu, she is just there as a plot device. But a lot of the drama, she's just being like, I know. And it's just like, and I feel like I can't, she's placed to be someone that by the end you're supposed to really dislike. But I feel like I can't necessarily dislike her because I can't necessarily blame her for the things she does by the end because it's just like this character has just been raggedly pushed from one side to the other to like, where the sort of plot needs her to be.

59:18 Because as Chen Chen is adjusting the plot, she, you know, true truth, kind of like falling off the wagon a little bit. So. So yeah. What did you guys think about, like, her art? Because to me, she's just feels like very much a plot device for a lot of the drama, I think. I feel like, so I think I may be doing a little bit too much analysis here and like then the drama even is asking me to do.

59:46 But I do think it is an interesting question of what happens when you take someone who is supposed to be the female lead and make her not the female lead Like and like, I think one of the things the drama is doing is like, she wasn't actually one of the problems with the script that. Ends up in is that like she didn't write her female lead to be that deep. So when you take this female lead whose only aspect, whose only character attribute was female lead, and you don't give her that anymore, right?

1:00:16 What happens to her? Female lead and war. Don't forget she's very good at military. Yes, yes. Yeah, very true, very true. And The thing is, even towards the end, like the original script was meant to have a very tragic ending. And the thing I find it quite interesting because when we start the drama off the So Hanshu, who is supposed to play the male lead in, you know, the drama, he says to her, this is like, this is garbage. I'm not going to play this character. And I find that very interesting because she's like, at that point, I think you feel like they're being very harsh to a female lead.

1:01:10 But once you actually fall into the story, you kind of think, oh, maybe he had a point. Like, he was very harsh, but maybe he hasn't had a little bit of a point that she needed to like, clean this up, but like, edit it and make it, you know, more polished, so to speak. But yeah, I feel like Choo Choo is unfortunately just one of those characters that have fallen to to the wayside. Funnily enough, this actress, Susie Chin, she plays a very prominent role in the story of Pearl Girl with she's working with her again.

1:01:52 And it's very interesting because they they're playing enemies in this in the story of Pearl Girl. Yeah. It's been a lot of fun to kind of revisit and being like, oh, I know, yes. Like it was very, very interesting to see that, you know, their sort of interactions in this in Pearl girl, while also because I'm I was like watching both at the same time.

1:02:21 So it's very interesting to see that aspect of it. And then I think for roles, for like main main roles, they just have pay hung who bless him. I mean, what is that? Pay hung I. Mean that scene, I did I, I think, I hope that it was meant to be funny because it couldn't. But where she pretends, where she pretends that she's dead and he's like, I'm going to kill myself, you know, And she's lying there in this coffin. And Hanshu is.

1:02:58 Really. Really milking it out of him, like, and Paul, Paul Payhung is just like, if you're not willing to follow her into the afterlife, then I will. And I was like, this is so dramatic that it's like crosses that boundary into being very funny. Well, like, I, I feel like that was part of the satire actually of like these of these tragedies where it's like buddy and it you're not it, it ain't that deep.

1:03:27 You gotta let it go. I do feel bad 'cause I laughed at him so much. And like I didn't mean. To I didn't suffering too. Yeah. And like there was a particular scene where Honcho kicked him down the stairs. I didn't read the word with the weight he rolled down the stairs. Oh, terrible, but. It was so funny.

1:03:53 I feel like a lot of these like supposedly very deep scenes are meant to be funny as well at the same time like that. That's where I was coming from because I was like, they sound so over the top, so ridiculous that it's like there's no way they're anything but funny. And like when it comes to pay Hung, all I could think of is she's just not that into you.

1:04:20 Just like and. She said that too, which is the thing that many times she was like, we're friends, buddy. And he was like, friends as in lovers as in you'll marry me tomorrow. And it's like, no, no. He's such a delusional character though. He's in that aspect, I think he is. I I do find him interesting as a character in like a commentary on like if we look at the gender flip situation, there are a lot of C drama like historical or Wuja or Jonja dramas where there is like aside from the female lead, the like 1 exceptional woman and he is like the one exceptional man.

1:05:03 Like I'm thinking about the general in Who rules, Who rules the world and other JA Lucy drama. Like the female general character specifically who is like, like she's kick ass but she's the only woman in a position of power. Yeah. And that sort of the exception, but the secondary exception, who is there so that the female lead isn't the only woman in the show, but also it just like has a feeling of how much she can do. And I find really interesting that you brought that point up actually, because he technically by the end, he is the only man in power because he's kind of like taken over the military power aspect of it.

1:05:46 So so you know, that is that is quite interesting. So I think that's really all the characters. I don't think we really need to go that deep into because like the side characters are, you know, unless you guys have a specific character that you really want to talk about apart from those four. Well, just really quickly.

1:06:07 I want to do a quick shout out to Mudang, my himbo barbarian. He stole my heart. I adore him. He's so funny. Oh, he's hilarious. Every scene he's in he's a treat. Like when he caught the marriage ball and was like, oh, I can't marry her and then throw it away. Oh, he's amazing. But also, can we take a second to talk about the eldest sister, Yon yon oh?

1:06:34 My gosh, yes. Because I think she was a really interesting character that I found myself rooting for throughout the drama. And Karin and I were having a little bit of conversation about how her illness was handled over the course of the drama in a way that was really interesting. Because it felt like in a lot of ways to me, she was devalued by all of the folks around her in the story that Chin Chin wrote.

1:07:02 But honestly, she to me, felt like the one who would make the most sense to be the next city master, right? And in a way, that's something that was never kind of like addressed because so much of the show was about Chin Chin and Choo Choo that like she was just kind of put to the side. She had her great story with Sumu, which I 100% support.

1:07:24 I support their love, but but it it was just something to me that by the time I reached the end, I'm kind of like they never. She was never really part of that conversation because she was always written off for her illness, which I think was kind of like a missed opportunity in some ways. But Karen, I know you had some kind of like other thoughts about how how her disability was handled.

1:07:48 Yeah, so thinking about like from a disability studies perspective a little bit. So just for context from you who don't listen to our podcast, Ayaani and I add some like analysis and bring some of our like academic background to how we think about pop culture. But so thinking about disability studies, one of the common pitfalls of portraying disability in fantasy is the trope of the magical cure, which we have like note for note with the dragon bone cure for Hunter's heart disease, which sort of then suggests that someone. The one of the like critiques of that trope is that it suggests that someone who is disabled has no place in fantasy stories. Yeah.

1:08:27 And I think that Ganyon's disability, which is much more visible than Hanshu, is like his like heart disease. He just like acts faint sometimes like clutches his chest, whatever. But she's like actually in a wheelchair. And I think it is interesting that like they point out that like, oh like the when she like feels betrayed that Chen Chen stole the dragon bone for Hanshu and never like stole it for her. Her attendant was like, OK, well, like that was never going to work for you.

1:08:54 So there a magical cure for her was not possible, but also she can do like like I I just kind of loved actually that Chen Chen's solution for Yan Yan to help her was like, girl do physical therapy. Do your PT and just like. Move, do your rehab. And like, she doesn't ever get like cured, but she does more in order to like, empower herself.

1:09:18 Yeah, to, like, do more than she was letting herself do, even if other people did not give, like, give her those opportunities. She had to figure out how to take that for herself. And I don't think it was, like, perfectly handled at the end. But like, I did appreciate that as a sort of counterpoint to like the magical Kira narrative. Yeah, I mean, and I won't say her walking down the the ceremony with assistance like did bring some tears to my eyes actually at the end, because it felt like this was, I don't know, this was a narrative that I became personally invested in, right?

1:09:51 Her and how she saw herself and how she saw herself in relation to her sisters. So her kind of making that walk at the end and then having this proclamation of like this is something I did for myself, right? I don't even want to be city master, but like I've claimed this part of my life there I thought was really was really one of the more poignant moments of the show for me, actually.

1:10:12 Yeah. And I think like, their romance was like one of the healthiest ones in the show as well because he's like, he's so supportive of her. And he kind of is just there regardless of how everyone else perceives him because everybody just thinks, you know, that he's not worthy of even being in her presence a lot of the time that he kind of like pushes that aside to get through to the person that she is. And I think there's was a really, really nice, you know, a really nice relationship.

1:10:48 And I do completely agree with what you were both saying about like disability in fantasy dramas and historicals just in general. Even in modern dramas, it's very rarely handled, you know, completely adequately. I think the only place where I've sort of seen it handled and there was no magical cure. There was nothing.

1:11:17 It was Nirvana in fire. Like the male lead has this disease and he kind of there's no cure for that. And that's, that's that which I, I found, you know, interesting because I do agree that sometimes we have these plot stories like you were saying with Hanshu, where he's been sick all of his life. And then all of a sudden he's not sick anymore because this magical cure has come out of nowhere. And, you know, again, that just brings it in this, you know, specific storyline.

1:11:51 I think it was just another plot point to bring the couple closer together because she sacrificed something that's very holy to her village. And then she's paying the price for that to save him. And then, you know, it comes the scenes where he's supposed to to die, which his head is on a chopping block like a couple of times.

1:12:14 Yeah. Less and shoe but his head is on. But I do I actually like that aspect of it in the sense that it's true true, not true true. It's Chen Chen coming to the rescue as opposed to having he feels like the damsel in distress A lot of for sure and I enjoyed that sort of like role reversal. We don't get it a lot of the time, but I truly enjoyed that, you know, role reversal. And I will say that something to Zaluchi's characters that she tends to play wherever it's it's that she tends to be a quite, I don't know, savvy and powerful female lead on her own right. And that is something that is common to most of her characters as a whole.

1:13:08 I mean, love, like the Galaxy being one of them. She is very much her own person, so and this one, it's the same thing. But all of her cluelessness and for all of her, you know, whatever it may be, I do enjoy the aspect to that it. She comes to the rescue quite a few times and that's a fun, you know, place to sort of, sort of see, I think. Yeah.

1:13:35 So should we just talk about? I think we can just talk about sort of, you know, storytelling and scenes and dialogue. If there's any that you guys really want to speak on, we can sort of talk about that now. And, and yeah, for me, I think one of the scenes that I enjoyed, and I don't know if it's necessarily like a great scene, but it is like one of those scenes where his head is on the chopping block and she kind of runs in and saves him. And Hanshu just kind of sees her in a whole new light because he wasn't expecting to be saved.

1:14:15 And they're kind of like clutching at each other and her mother then, you know, sort of lets him go. So I enjoyed that scene. But what, what, what scenes did you guys think that you know, we've already touched on a few, but are there any scenes you really want to talk about? I think a standout scene for me where I Lucy's comedic chops are really on display is when Hamshua comes to save her after she's been kidnapped by the bandits and she is instead now the now the king of the bandits herself and also a drunk off her ass. And like has this whole sequence with with Hantru and Zerua her attendant and like who's that handsome man? He's my husband.

1:15:04 What? How did that? Happen. Well, I'm a kidnapper again and I just like, she's so funny. I'm sure it's so like. Distraught that. This has happened and like and like feel is regretful and she's also like so dramatically like, oh, I like you're here, but I can't. You belong to the female lead and it's so funny.

1:15:27 And then she also counts as abs, which I think is a nice. She's very funny. I I really liked that whole like section where we have like the Barbarians. It was just very fun and and an enjoyable sort of pause because after that everything gets a little bit more serious I think after that sort of segment. So so yeah, I really enjoyed that one as well. Good one.

1:15:56 Let's see 1 is a scene that I really enjoyed. So the one it's funny because I had one and then you started talking about the Barbarians and now my brain is just filled with Mudang and I'm trying to actually think of something that does not involve him. But there is a sequence. Oh, I know the the fight, the during the the city master test where Chen is just running from. Is it Linky right?

1:16:27 Who our our queen of the whip and that whole like fight sequence which starts off super comedic with her ridiculous like straw armor running around and screaming but then like turns to be this really dramatic sequence of her like resisting and withstanding. The abuse that she's refusing to yield. Yeah, So that coming back to Yanya so that her sister can see her doing this, so she can like want to do the PT. But also that's such an interesting kind of exchange between Peihang ringing the bell and her kind of saying you're not my husband, you're not my family, you can't do this for me.

1:17:13 And making that kind of turn towards Hanshou, who understands her for what it's worth, like he still makes her city master, right? Or young city master, but understands what she's trying to do in this moment. I think it was a great kind of touch point between all of these different characters and how they're interacting with each other and how they're moving the story around.

1:17:34 Like, I know we're saying that a lot of this, the characters are not that deep, right? But I really do appreciate these moments when the story shows us how it's the characters interacting with each other that are creating kind of like the ripples that move out through the rest of the the story, Which is, again, one of the reasons why Chen Chen not getting it makes me so bad because I'm like, girl, it's right there in front of your face, but it's fine.

1:17:59 But yeah, I really, I really like that whole sequence because I do think it really eloquently moved from like this comedy to something that was a lot more like heartfelt and impactful. I think that's maybe also one of the scenes where we can sort of see hints of because we see like that Lucy is amazing comedy in this drama a lot. But like we see sort of like the seeds of her dramatic potential that she like has grown into a lot over the past few years. And like really, since I was watching this alongside Love like the Galaxy for the first time, it was like, oh, like you, you have like the foundation to play some like high tragedy here, like you.

1:18:37 And you can, like, control the tone of what's going on. And I don't know if it's like my favorite scene, but another scene where you can sort of see her, like, controlling the tone is like the scene where she betrays Hanshu and like, tells him, oh, I never loved you. I was lying the whole time. I'm not my favorite. Scene at all?

1:18:55 Oh, yeah, That's like a that's an upsetting scene. But I think that is a scene where you see her acting and her potential for drama and tragedy coming through a little bit more. And there's like the beginning of that with the fight scene. You were mentioning Ayani. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I think when it comes to that fight scene, I really, really liked it because like you said, it does flow because at the beginning you're just thinking what is happening.

1:19:19 She's going to like that she's got this suit on and she's fighting in slow motion with the girl and that. You're ridiculous. That was so it's. Ridiculous. And she's like, like, it's ridiculous. But then you kind of understand her by the end of that scene, she's getting whipped over and over again. And like, hey, Hung does do that. And it kind of shows in that moment why Hanshu would always be the right choice for her because he understands the character, you know, the person she is and why she has to do what she has to do.

1:19:54 And although it's costing him everything to just like, sit there, sometimes it's harder to be like to not do. Something than it is to do something. And I think that that was such a scene that but a drama that we do say is not that deep was like a deeper scene because pay hung. Pay hung is just like, oh, how can you stand there and just watch her suffer? And it's like, no, he's choosing to honor her wishes, choosing to trust her choices and letting her do what she wants to do rather than accepting his will over hers. And I think that was a really, really powerful scene in that aspect.

1:20:41 But also once you find out why she's just like standing this abuse, you know, you kind of feel even more because, you know, the sister, she's always been ignored and she's always been pushed to a corner. And it's think I think it's truly the first time where she's like, oh, Oh, my sister cares for me. Like if she, you know, there is love there. And I I really appreciated that whole scene. And like Karine was saying Zaluchi, when she does do dramatic, when she cries, it is.

1:21:15 Oh my goodness. She's really quiet, yeah. It's beautiful on screen and she has no qualms. And by beautiful, I don't mean like she she's beautiful when she cries. I mean, like she's not afraid to go to those really dark places and to like be ugly, sobbing, crying on screen. And I think it takes a lot for an actor to do that or an actress, you know, I think for me, for example, by Lou is another actress that does that.

1:21:45 Well, there's scenes where you actually see the behind the scenes, and there's one scene specifically for by Lou in One and only where they had to send her home because she could just simply get out of character. Man. Stop. She couldn't stop. She was like it was St. crying and she could not get out of her character. So the director.

1:22:11 Actually, you mean yeah. Well, yeah, if you watched it, you would have known. And she literally was sent home because she was like, I can't, you know, she couldn't get out of the character. One PD, for example, in love between Fairy and Devil. You both have watched it, haven't you? So like this scene where Orchid dies in his arms, either behind the scenes for that, if you have a favor yourself a favor, go watch the behind the scenes because it's like SDU crying can't stop and she's comforting one, could he? And he's like, he can't get out of that headspace. And I think there's something to say for when an actor and actress gives themselves into that role so much that it it there's nothing to it.

1:22:59 Like it grabs at your heart stream so much and it comes through on screen. And I think like Corinne was saying that scene where she's telling her true to kind of go and, you know, there there's a couple of other scenes where you can start to see what Zalu she can truly do. So So yeah, I I I loved that aspect of a character.

1:23:24 But obviously that's not the drum. This is not the drummer where she's going to give because there's just no room for that. This is very much, you know, a ROM com. But I will say I am so glad that she has started to change up the you know, the roles she does because goodness, you know, by the time you hit love like the Galaxy and by the time you hit Pearl girl, it it's like night and day. You are watching like someone who's, you know, very much transformed.

1:23:58 But if you watch, you know, this this one, you see the scenes like Corinne was saying, you see where she's kind of like started it. So yeah. But but that fight scene was one that it's I think it's one of the deepest scenes in the world drama, actually. Yeah. So, So I don't think, I don't know. I think like a lot of the scenes, I don't even have that many written down because overall, like I just don't think like overall and even normally when I write down any sort of dialogue or anything, it tends to be dialogue that is like, I don't know what to call it, but it's tends to be like, remember, memorable a dialogue.

1:24:40 But I just don't think that was that much, you know, in this for me. Was there any kind of like dialogue that stood out for you guys at all? So I don't know if they're a specific dialogue, but I do think there were moments when thinking about gender and patriarchy that I think are interesting, but it's more in like the setup and like, what does it mean?

1:25:05 I don't know, like, what does gender inequality look like? And like, it does have this sort of like surface, like obviously like a matriarchy, a strict matriarchy is not actually preferable to a strict patriarchy. But especially as like Choo Choo descends into like madness, the worst of the worst. Like men are nothing like stuff.

1:25:26 But like I, I. So Ayana and I were talking about this a little bit about like what it means to actually being. So maybe this is like a difference between like dialogue and actions. Yeah. About it because like Chen Chen doesn't say a lot that is very convincing about why gender equality is important but a lot of her actions back up that she actually believes that in like wanting to rescue the miners even though they're men or like supporting Pehong and wanting to be a minister and like she she's not eloquent about it but like she is very sort of like like steady in but in supporting that belief with her actions so I think I took your question and answered a different question but.

1:26:10 It's funny because I actually kind of want to bounce off that really quickly because maybe we can expand that out to like the show on whole. Because something I was thinking about was Honcho's mother, right? And that sequence where she's like, bump this, I'm going to be the minister of Defense now. And I don't think it was the most eloquently written, right? It was kind of a little, and I mean, again, this is from like our contacts in the world that we live in and all that kind of stuff, right?

1:26:40 But it was a little kind of like on the nose, like, why don't you stop doing this thing that you love just because your husband said like, you know, it's a little a little obvious. But again, thinking about actions, you know, she very quickly made the decision that this is who she was going to be and what she was going to do. So it wasn't like a wasn't really like a waffley kind of a thing.

1:26:58 And it felt like the show was making a statement about what is actually correct in these moments, right? As opposed to, you know, eloquently talking about it and then nothing's being done. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. No, I, I, that's actually something that I wouldn't have thought about until you guys brought it up. But now that you mentioned it, I think it actually works out really well for her character because it's just like you said, I think this one is almost one of those that fits the saying. Actions speak louder than words.

1:27:29 And I think throughout her actions definitely speak louder than her words because she does Chen Chen and even, you know, other characters tend to waffle on a bit, but then their actions truly show their allegiances. And I think that's something that's quite good about, you know, the the drama as a whole.

1:27:52 I think I just had down South costume sets in OST. Now this OST is for me, there's not a lot memorable about it because I didn't remember right. The songs it's fine, it's fine, but it's not like you know, there is some OS TS to me that I hear the first bars and I know exactly what drama it's from and you know it's on my it's on my constant repeats and what not.

1:28:21 But this is not one of them. I don't even, I don't think I could even pick out one of the songs from it, if I'm being honest. I do. Like the ending song that's been stuck in my head over the last couple of days, I. Think that might be the one cuz I think is how she sung one of them. And I'm not sure if that might be because she she say she sings really well as well. Of course she does.

1:28:46 And she plays. Did you guys know that she plays the Oh my God, I'm going to forget. How can I forget the name? It's the traditional Chinese instrument where, yeah, she plays that and she plays it beautifully as well. So. So yeah, I I think that might be one of the songs that she did, but I think it's a. Male singer who does then?

1:29:11 Oh, then maybe not, then maybe not. But I think, I think she did do one of the songs for this. But yeah, I just don't think it was one of those. I have, I have very specific OST singers that I will remember them constantly. Like one of them being Lou Yuning. If it's a Lou Yuning song, you know, like it's going to be good because this man is so incredibly talented at doing OST's.

1:29:39 Not only is he a good actor, but he's so incredibly talented at doing OST's that you can recognize straight away. I mean, it's the same thing with Love between Fairy and Devil. You will know that song anywhere. So yeah, but I don't think the OST was something for, you know, that that. And I think this was a slightly lower budget kind of drama because at the time neither the actor nor the actress were that big compared, you know, to now where both of them are fairly big as an actor and actress.

1:30:14 They the costuming in this was actually kind of OK. I didn't find it like very over the top or anything like that. But for a historical I found it OK. I kind of so it did have the feeling a little bit of being made on like $5 and a dream, but given given that feeling, I did actually appreciate the very sort of consistent styling.

1:30:38 Of the different. Cities. And like, I loved Zalushi's hair. Yeah, the hair. Lot of it. Like I I liked the consistent vibe of it, even if it didn't necessarily feel like super lush costuming. It didn't feel very intentional. Yeah, I did not. Like the only hair that I thought was a bit funny was right. I think it's her first hair when she's in that red outfit. Oh yeah.

1:31:00 You know, that one felt a little off. But after that, I felt like they were fairly good and it was nice to see because obviously once she's married, they're supposed to wear their hair up. And that was very consistent for her and I really, really enjoyed, you know, that aspect of it. And they they were quite nice wigs. Like I've seen far worse wigs and for absolutely sure. So I think I might be mistaken, but I think it's like Tang Dynasty influenced styling, not necessarily accurate, but I believe it's Tang dynasty influenced. So that's the kind of like styling, at least for her city. I think the Hanshu City is a slightly different kind of styling, but I appreciated that, you know, distinction between between the two.

1:31:57 Yeah. So should we just go on and just basically we can wrap it up by saying what did we think about the ending and anything that we think could have been done slightly better? What did you guys think? You know, it was fine. I guess, like if we go like all the way back to the very, very, very end when she meets with the actor in the hospital room, I don't know.

1:32:23 I was kind of like, OK, I guess because you don't want this to be a tragedy. They're going to remember each other. But I I wasn't really convinced by it. You. Know OK because he was just like well I had this dream like and in this dream this happened and I was like OK so do you feel like this really happened and then all of a sudden she's in his arms and you know she's she's that you've got photographers coming in and not. And I do wish for me personally, I I wish there was one change that I wish I could have made.

1:33:05 It would have been for the portion where they're actually in the story to be shorter and then to them maybe flush out their modern day romance. I feel like that would have made it, I don't know, it made it, it would have made it for, I think a tighter script in the story part. And then they could have made the 24 episodes up by like showing up their modern day and even like her changing the script and her like and then recording the story.

1:33:36 I think that would have worked really well. So that that's like the main thing that because at the end of the day, like we've said many a times, it's just not that deep. It's an OK, but you know, it's it's OK. Like it's a fun watch. It's a fun time. But I feel like the main thing that I would change would be that shorter on like the plot that they're in the story and then give like the last couple of episodes to them in the modern world, like her changing it up and, you know, redoing this. And I think that would be a lot of fun to watch, so. It's funny bouncing off of that.

1:34:09 I know there's been a a change or a turn recently in a lot of like anime isekai where there's been stories that are looking at, OK, So what happens after the adventure where you've had this whole adventure in another universe and then you come back to Earth and nobody believes you? I think there's one that's called like uncle from another universe or something like that, which like he returns back to his bodies and he's in his 40s or something and he went on this grand adventure and everyone's like, OK buddy, cool.

1:34:36 So I think I'm really on board with your idea that I think it would have been really interesting to have them come back. Because also the question I have right is the the actor had this dream, but it wasn't the same of like having his. He wasn't transmigrated or what have you, right. He didn't, He didn't go through it when he was there. Yeah.

1:34:59 Yeah. So I was suddenly super interested about the fact of like, OK, well, how do you navigate your life now having two sets of memories, right? What does what does that do? I wanted that. I'm couch quarterbacking in a way that makes me feel like, OK, I technically maybe would have wanted a different story.

1:35:15 And I think that's fair, right? It's fair to say that. But also within the confines of this story itself, I think it would have been really interesting to, like, watch them have to navigate now, having had that past life in the present, and what it means for their relationship. ROM communists, you know as they're working together.

1:35:37 So I will say, so I agree with both of you, but I will say I did sort of like or one of the questions that is interesting to me in these sort of transmigration dramas where you're like in a story and know you're going to leave probably is how to navigate that. And I appreciated the I mean, the the tragedy of Honshu being like, I'm dying, I need to get you out of here. There is no reason for you to stay here. If I'm gone even to that, that I will end my life alone, however much is left of it, which is like, a little bit heavier, I think, than the drama sometimes gets. Yeah.

1:36:15 But like that sort of dilemma even even in like very slight transmigation dramas. So like I watched one earlier this year called I think different Princess, which was the same kind of like a novelist that sucked in her story. And that was like very, I enjoyed it, but it was very mid. But the more sort of poignant parts of that story even was like the the female lead being like, I'm disappearing from the story. I cannot stay with you even if I want to. So what does that mean?

1:36:45 And that sort of dilemma of like this is not my world. I love you, but I don't know what to do with that information. I kind of like appreciated how it dealt with that I'd. Almost want a story that really sat with that in a way that was more serious, right. I because I think that's such an interesting like push and pull in these stories is like, I'm not from here actually, right.

1:37:07 There are certain things that I like I couldn't imagine going back to, I don't know, medieval England, right? There's just things that I expect, like penicillin, you know? So I think there's so much much about that that could be interesting, but maybe not for like a ROM com, you know? No, there is one and it's AK drama and it happens the other way around.

1:37:30 Have you watched the contract of Park's marriage? Is does he say Yeah? No I haven't. I need to. So basically that story is she is, you know, in Josen. So she she's and that the character is there as well. The then she gets sent to the future. So as opposed to going backwards, she goes forwards. And that does sit with that story a bit more because at first she's just trying to go back. It does lean into comedy as well, but it's ESA Young. Like I love that actress a lot.

1:38:07 So she's basically like sitting with that information and then what do they do with it? And there's like a fantasy element and she does eventually go back to her own time. And that it's quite interesting to see like what happens there because there's like more stuff happens. But I I really liked that one. And I think that is one that delves a little deeper into the what ifs.

1:38:34 And there's a lot of times where the male lead kind of after they've fallen in love, he runs in and she is out somewhere and he's like desperately looking for her because he thinks she's gone. And it's like, so it does delve into that situation a bit more. So I, I enjoyed that drama. I thought, you know, it's 12 episodes as well for AK drama.

1:38:57 So it is shorter, but I do think it worked out. I, I really liked it. Where's that? Over. Streaming. I think it might be Vicky. I think it's on Vicky. Yeah, I think it's. Vicky yeah, yeah, it's, I think it's on Vicky. But yeah, I think that one is like more along the lines of dealing with the fact that these characters. And yes, you have a lot of fun with the fact that she, you know, has no clue what the heck's going on. Like she doesn't know.

1:39:28 And also she was an aristocrat lady in Chosen. So all of a sudden, all of a sudden she's like, I don't know what's happening. Like I don't like she she's got, she's got to do, she's got to work. And she has to do all of these things. Not work. I know. Yeah. So it's very, very interesting. So yeah. So I think this main setup for that is the fact that she marries, she gets married off to somebody and that someone dies on their wedding night.

1:40:00 And then she is basically like stuck as a widow. And she she's like, there's this whole conspiracy behind it. So I, I really liked it. But like we were saying, I think that is one that kind of explores those aspects of what happens. We're in the wrong time. Time, You know, time period. Like what is going to happen to us as a couple? I feel like that's also a question that, like, it pushes too hard on comedy and often turns to tragedy unless the person can stay.

1:40:35 So like, even thinking about like, we're getting a little far afield here, but thinking of like, about till the end of the Moon, even with, like, Lisusu going back in time and that being like, that's not her time. Even though she's like, there to like, you know, make changes, make moves, stop the rise of the devil, God or whatever. Like there is like that pressure of like, she's not there forever.

1:40:57 So then it turns into tragedy. So like it, there's almost like a limit to how much you can press on that and still have it stay in the same genre. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, but see for me, when it comes to Till the end of the Moon, I never saw it as a ROM com or any like to me. Yeah, that they could.

1:41:15 Go there. Like they could go there because that is a tragedy. Like that's a tragic drama in general. So I think you have to be very like, whenever I think that that topic comes down to you have to know your story and you have to know what genre you want to stay. And I'm very much an upholder of if you try to double in too many genres, the story completely loses its sense of identity. There is time and space for being able to be, you know, various things within one drama.

1:41:52 But I think it takes a very qualified kind of screenwriter to be able to do that well without, you know, mixing up the genres so much that the story gets muddy. I think so, yeah. For something like Till the End of the Moon, that is very much a tragedy. I was never, ever expected. Like I people kept saying, oh, I think we can hope for a happy ending.

1:42:20 And I was like, no, there's no way. Like, I was watching the same drama. This is, I started this and within a couple of episodes, I knew I was going to be broken hearted by the end. So I I just sat down and enjoyed the ride. Well, like that, that's one where. They like, I think use the transmigration setup for like moments of levity before settling back into tragedy as opposed to like romance of Tiger and Rose being like comedy and the transmigration migration leads to moments of tragedy.

1:43:00 So like it's and obviously like till the End of the Moon is doing like way more stuff, but like that is I think of where the the balance of the genre is different. Yeah, yeah, I I think that's it guys. Have you got any last thoughts or anything else you want to say about this this drama at all? A quick shout out from me to Rizzo and by G, the two attendance, I think they were so funny. And like their support I think helped make like Chin Chin, Chin and Hanshua funnier because they were a sort of outlet for like, Chin, chin, Chin to say like wild shit to Rizzua and just having her be like running around and him like goofily running after her like that.

1:43:49 That really, I think like upped the comedy for me a lot, and especially the physical comedy. Yeah. No, I don't have anything real to say. Though I guess the last last shout out could be to the city Masters fun headpiece that she wore all the time, her daily forehead situation. Because I would like one please.

1:44:07 I think I would look great wearing that to work so. Yeah, I think like the only thing I just popped into my head randomly was the fact that I quite enjoyed the scenes between where Chen Chen would go to the storytellers to try and. Oh my God, we didn't talk about the. Storytellers. I loved them.

1:44:30 Now she's trying to get them to be like, what do I do? How do I tell this? Like, where do I go? So I, I actually, I thought it literally just popped into my head as you know, I was thinking about last thoughts and I was like, Oh my goodness, that they were fun to have on board so. I love the reveal, like when the last time she sees them, when they like revealed it, like they knew that she was talking about her own story the whole time and she's like, how did you know?

1:45:00 And they're like, girl, it's so obvious, like from the beginning. Real storytellers understood what was happening, yeah. And The thing is, it was so funny because she was like, do I go in this direction? And you just have 3 storytellers looking at her like what are you doing? So I feel like they were kind of like, I feel like, do you know what?

1:45:22 They could almost be the audience in an essence of like, of being like, girl, you're doing so. So yeah, I think I think they definitely deserve a little a little shout out to them. But apart from that, I think that is it. That is it. Guys. Thank you so much for joining me. Where can people find you?

1:45:47 That's a great question. So you can find sex love literature on all of your favorite podcast platforms. So you just need to search sex love literature and will appear. It's stylized with a period after every word, but I feel like if you just type it in, it's fine. You can also find our socials. We are on Instagram at Sex Love Lit Podcast. We're also on Tumblr at Sex Love Lit Podcast, and we have a website, sexlovelitpodcast.com, but, you know, we don't really hang out there.

1:46:20 That's more of just like a space on the Internet. Yeah. We do we all. So for kinds of episodes you might find we do have like occasional Asian drama podcast. So like we have a series on Love You on Lost You Forever. Yeah. We also did love between Fairy and Devil and we dip into K dramas I think somewhat regularly, but we also get into more Western media like Bridgerton.

1:46:45 We're planning episodes on Sarah J Mass's A Court of Thorns and Roses series. So so. You just said so actually, fun fact, fun fact, I'm not reading A Call of Thorns and Roses because I did start book one. I read book 1 and I wasn't that into it. So that actually helped me from reading, from read I there's just something about that female protagonist that I just, I don't know, I. Don't know girl, we're going to get into it in the. Episode, right, right.

1:47:16 I'll have to listen to it because like, I don't know, there's just something about that series that doesn't quite click for me. But then this Throne of Glass and Oh my God, I, I, by God, I think this is going to go down. I'm literally listening. I have three books. I've listening to book five now. So I've got 6:00 and 7:00 left to read, plus a book of novellas, which I should have read at the beginning, but I didn't know that.

1:47:44 So I'm gonna like read on episode 5 because I'm talking to a friend about it. And she says, yeah, you should definitely read that. Like before you get into the last couple of books because it will make more sense. But my goodness, I was like, this cannot be the same writer that did a call of thorns and roses.

1:48:03 Cause throwing a glass just feels like a whole different, like genre and I'm like a whole different set. And this was her first series. Like Throne of Glass was her first series. And. I'm like, my goodness, the world building and the weaving and it's it's so good. So I, I'm very, like you mentioned, Sarah James and I'm like, I'm very much in my era for her right now because I'm reading, you know, I'm going through Throne of Glass, but I'll definitely be checking out your guys''s thoughts on the I don't know.

1:48:38 There was just something about it the, you know, I don't know. But then again, for Throne of Glass, she's an assassin and I'm like, this is so good. So it's a very different. Whereas I think with fair for like A Court of Thorns and Roses, she feels like a weaker character that's going to come into her own, I'm supposing. But the Throne of Glass, I'm just like, this girl starts off powerful and I'm like, I I kind of, yeah, I'm kind of here for it.

1:49:07 But I'll definitely be checking that one out. Thank. You. Oh, and just also as a note, we do have a Spotify playlist that is all of our talk about Korean, Chinese and Japanese dramas if you want a nice succinct place to find them. I will if you guys send me over the links, I'll make sure to pop all of those in the episode a note so people can have easy access to them. But thank you guys so much for coming on. This has been a lot, a lot of fun. And that is it guys.

1:49:38 That is the episode. I hope you guys have enjoyed it and we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.