Spectacle

Of the Law & Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies these episodes are based on.

These are our stories.

Yay, that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Lisa Traeger.

I'm Cara Clank, and it's SVU recaps, true crime deep dives, interviews with fascinating people, and general chit-chattery and ranting about the world around us up top. I mean... at this point, like this episode, you guys know we're always in the time machine.

That's the nature of podcast production.

But like now the Cornell seven story has been out for like what feels like five years. And I personally, it was like having this conversation with my friend last night and she was like, I'm just so shocked. I was like, Oh, I just like have a podcast where I know that this happens. Like, every single day on college campuses all over. Like SV, they're like, they're going to do an SVU about this. I'm like, they have, like they've done 12 SVUs about this, you know, like this story has been done. Like we've talked about how colleges do their own independent investigations and it's bullshit. And like, I just, I'm so glad this case is getting attention, but I'm also like, this has been going on for fucking ever in the college system and beyond.

No, everyone always acts surprised at any time if it's like a past or two.

Oh, that's a good guy. Wait, it's this.

And it's like, who do you think is doing the crimes? I don't understand the constant surprise. I understand the horror. Or like, you know, like that it's still happening.

I don't know. I just don't understand how.

I'm like the lifelong results and symptoms of like a, a brutal sexual assault is not as a value as like a guy getting to work at a bank. I don't, I don't understand how someone like, and that everyone knew. I mean, that is, that's, that's what bothers me. Cause when you have these discussions with men, oftentimes it's like the not all men and it's like, How can you say that with a straight face when there were 50 plus people in that chat that did nothing?

That's what, yeah, that was what was, my friend was saying was like, the worst part for her was like 57 boys, like no one did anything. And I go, well, did like Giselle Pellicote, like, do you know about that case in France?

Like no one did anything that went on for years, you know?

But I just don't understand how men can still have that, that energy.

Not me when it's like, no, it is you.

And I have seen some people on Instagram being like, you know, I'm thinking back to my frat days and there was like guys that are always known to have three.

So like one would bring.

Some of that, you know, it's like rethinking or did they know like they must know what's wrong or do they really not see women as people, which is like the truth too. Like, cause then I've seen a trend on the internet where it's like, what would a group of seven women have done with an unconscious man? And it's like, probably get him a blanket, water, make sure he didn't die. Like, I just, unless, except that one Diane Neal stripper episode. It's just like, I just can't, I don't know. Like, I don't understand why a passed out woman is like an invitation. And then, that it's the same arguments as always. And I'm like, you can't possibly believe it. Like, I don't understand why wanting to get drunk with a bunch of guys is equal to

getting gang raped. Like, I don't understand how consent of anything or even wanting to have a threesome or doing any of that is an invitation to all of that. Like, I don't understand the mental games of that. I just really don't. I wish I did. I wish I could understand if you're like dressed slutty and want to get drunk, that's okay to gang rape you for seven hours.

Like, I just don't get it.

Or like that even the peer pressure or like, I can't disappoint my frat bros or like any of that rises above like the morality of like, this person doesn't want this.

This person is like incapacitated. Like what?

I'm doing something legally and morally reprehensible. Like I can't do like, but I can't disappoint the frat. Like I was telling my friend yesterday in this conversation, I was like, it's getting to the point where I'm like, Look, I do think that there are good, like, there are probably great friendships made. My brother was in a fraternity, like, I'm sure, like, and he's great friends with his old frat brothers or whatever. But, like, then you see these Wisconsin guys tied up in the basement, like, humiliated. Like, I just don't get why this brotherhood based on humiliation has to continue.

Like, this doesn't... That's.

The point though.

That's like, because then you can't, because that's what a lot of the comparisons have been being made that I've seen where it's like.

This is how Epstein stuff happens.

Yeah.

Where it's like, they are used to humiliation. They have blackmail. I mean, that's what I always say.

There's like photos of all these people, but the Ithaca mayor, this came out last night at 1030, but had a bunch of demands for the Cornell after gang rape allegations. And like all student students, organizations gathering is not just Greek life.

There's, like, suspended. Every student event is suspended right now. Shit.

My friend works there. I was like, what's going on? What did they say? She was like, it's, no, it's not good.

She was saying, like, she was telling me that, like, the, there's some dean or something and then his, his daughters are getting, like, death threats.

And it's like, okay, well, that's not the point.

Like, the point is not to now terrorize the young women in the lives.

Of the people in charge. Like, As usual, everyone loses the plot.

Well, and not to make it about me, but, you know, I've been a promising young woman fanatic for years.

I've been from the jump. And people shit on it.

People in the zeitgeist, it's not good, the ending, Emerald Fennel, like everyone, I'm always fighting for my life with that movie. And what's being re-shared nonstop, how it is actually like the defining movie of everything that is this.

Yeah.

And everyone is resharing it.

And I'm like, yeah. That movie's a documentary. Everyone that said it was bad, you're an idiot.

You're an idiot. I knew it was incredible. And it is incredible.

I know, but it felt like the tide had turned and people were just like, it's actually this and that and that violence and that end.

And it's like, you mean genius?

Genius.

Also the Bo Burnham character in that movie, just like the guy that you're like, no, this is like the nice good guy. And then just like the turn, you know, like, oh, yeah. It really is a bummer. And this poor girl. And that's the thing. It's like she wanted to go to Cornell. She wanted to live a life.

And then the Cornell wouldn't even return her fucking like, what's it called?

Tuition money. They didn't?

No. No. Wait, also two of the guys came forward, right? And like one of their lawyers, one of their lawyer was like, she said he snorted ketamine off of his body. Or she said that he snorted ketamine off of her body. But he took a hair follicle test and there was no ketamine in his system. It's like, is that honestly what you're arguing right now? Like that's, these are the points you're arguing? Like, I....

These two guys were like, none of this happened. Like, whatever.

Or they're saying, one of them is saying that he got the message, went into the room, but there was no assault happening, and then stepped out.

Like, he was never really there. Like, whatever. That's what one guy is saying.

Sure, but it's like, you're still a piece of shit, and people should not feel safe around you. Because if there's someone in trouble, you're not going to do something about it.

Right. It's like, it's not a trustworthy thing. I don't know.

It's like... And.

This is like so horrific, but I also do keep thinking about Nolan Wells and how that is now outside the conversation fully.

Yeah.

You know, and that is, it's the same type of guys. It's the same type of connections to power. It's the same like devaluing of certain people's lives. And then, I don't know, I feel weird that that's like fully out now.

No one's talking about it. I have to keep the conversation going. Yeah, I don't know what is to be done in that. Like, can they re-bring a grand jury?

Like, I don't know.

I have no idea. I have no idea. And then with this, it's like... That case is so fucking sketchy. So many, like, missing pieces. But then I guess that woman, Sunny on The View, is fully, like, defending like the woman who's making the AI movie company where she wants to tell black and brown stories by giving away their voices and images I don't know I mean like I don't know she's but that's what I mean like why why is men's reputation like the detail like why is that ever a value like I just don't understand why I have to care about I don't want these guys in around like I don't want them around that's what the scarlet letters should be brand these guys.

I mean, yeah.

And glorious bastard style.

Jamila Jamil just came out being like, we should castrate these guys.

I was like, Lisa's been saying it. I went on the castration train.

She's like, I think that if you... Oh, and guess what?

Jeff Dye is doing a tour for Turning Point.

Oh my God, classic.

The posters have come out.

So I, of course, got texts from certain friends being like, I guess you were right about him too.

I go, I am always right about these fuckers.

Shut the fuck up.

I've never been wrong. I've never been wrong.

Who doubted you about that guy? Like, come on.

I think it's like, oh, do you really know he's this or that? Or like, I've been to clubs and be like, take his photo down. He fucking sucks. And they're like, oh, come on.

He's not that.

And it's like, no, now there's nowhere to hide. He is turning point USA. Someone's like, he's going to be dating, what's her name? Erica Kirk.

Erica Kirk.

Yeah. Oh my God.

At any moment. So wait. Okay, so last week we did I Thought You Were On My Side, right? That was last week's episode. This past weekend, I'm lying in bed. I'm sick. I'm sick. And my phone rings and it's Steph Tolove, who is our friend that has been on our Patreon.

So she was making the rounds. She's making the rounds. Well, because you know, was it about the same thing?

Yes. Did she call us back to back? She sent me a photo of you.

She sent me a picture of you two on FaceTime. Well, because I solved it for her.

Yes. Yes.

And she was impressed.

She sent me the guy's IMDb and I go, oh my God, Gabe Navarro. Like I knew his character name. She goes, you guys are sick. Wait, so the story is.

Okay, so I'm in Philly, and wildly, my opener was from Bulgaria.

She was so funny, if anyone came from Philly.

So she was excited to see Steph's face, and the idea of like, oh, you're all friends, you know? But Steph goes, listen, I bought a bar cart on Facebook Marketplace. I got to the guy's house. I knew he was from SVU. He said he was in this season... He got his own seasons and episodes wrong, but he was like, this season and this season, and he pushed someone down the stairs.

I go, I know exactly who that is. Give me a second.

So then I.

Like reversed from our guests and within under a minute, I was like, is it this guy? And she goes, you're sick. Yeah, she's like, you're fucking sick. I knew you would know that's exactly who I got the bar cart from. And his season was wrong. He said it was like last year, season 23. And then it was the canoe and I was like, oh, I was thinking more of this, but I got this. But yeah, so she was like very impressed. With that.

So our friend bought a bar cart off Facebook Marketplace from the guy who pushed the girl down the stairs and then got to ride on the motorcycle and stable shot him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That we just did last week. Like, I don't know if I'd.

Be able to do it as quick if we had not just done that episode.

Yeah. And also in the, because he does have kind of like generic villain face, but.

Also she said that. That's merch.

Yeah. She said that he was like, that she immediately was like, I know you, you're from SVU, you're a rapist. She was like immediately caught. He was like, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, like I was like, yeah, you really just with the hard R. at a Facebook marketplace encounter is wild.

But yeah, that just.

Cracked me up. I was like asleep in and out, not feeling good. And my phone rang and it was her. And I was like, I'm not picking up. Like I can't, I don't know what this is, but I can't handle it right now.

But she was having a night because then she talked to Jared Goldstein that night. Like she was really making the rounds because then I was texting him and he was showing me texts. So she was like, she was in a chatty, chatty mood, I think. But Margaret Cho did her podcast and I watched a clip. Did I already talk about this?

No.

You know, I'm pretty, I, it made me gag.

I fully gagged and thinking about that clip interview. I, I have gagged multiple times just thinking about this Margaret Cho interview.

I have another clip of Steph's from her podcast that it does the.

Same for me.

Like every time I think about it, I'm like, uh, like I can't, it's, I don't even remember who her guest was.

It was her story. And I was like, uh, I'm.

Like so upset thinking about it right now. But it's because Steph said she gagged and almost puked or did puke. Like, Margaret Cho is a sick freak. And, like, she hears sick shit on that podcast.

Yeah. I mean, I went on her podcast and talked about my butt Botox. That wasn't really, like, the worst thing she'd ever heard. I have to admit, I was not even in the top probably hundred. But. Fuck, okay, wait, now you're, like, making me want to go listen to it or should I not? No, I'll just talk about it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

I'll just let everyone know. But basically, she was, like, at a giant circle jerk and it's all these, like, gay guys and they're all, like, coming in a bucket and then one guy at the end drinks the bucket of.

Cum, which, like, is fine.

But then she started talking about how it was, like, 40 guys and, like, the tough part is the bottom cum starts globbing and congealing and then, like, no. No.

So, like, it's the different consistencies over time of the.

I can't.

Why?

Why? Casey's losing it. Why are we doing this?

I can't. And I just, like, it really sickens me. Yeah, coagulated jizz was not on my bingo card for today. But.

But yeah, so listen to Steph Infection. And she was, she has been a guest. She's one of our first guests on the Patreon. I think we like started the Patreon only to have her on. So we can talk to Steph and make it. Although she should get cast. She would be such a fun. She wants to be a rapist though.

She tells us about it on the Patreon about how that's her goal, to be honest with you, but to be the perp.

Oh, she would be an incredible perp. She would be. And, oh, in Philly. So like, My friend Andy, I saw on his Instagram stories, he goes, I have tickets to Moona for free in Philly. And I go, oh my God, like I'm here. It has to be. And I only had one show Friday. I go, it's meant to be. So I was like, I'll take it. He had other friends there. He just had to shoot something. So he couldn't make it. And he was giving away four tickets.

Everyone had other shows. So I was like, I went alone to meet his friends there. But I was delusional. I got there too late.

They wouldn't let me in.

They put all the scanners away. But the security guards were so nice. So they were like, you could stand with us and look at the screen if you want. So I hung out with them. And then someone actually gave me a Moona bracelet. And I did chat with people. And then I ended up hanging out at the Westin with some people. But I saw three Moona songs in Philly from outside the venue.

Yeah. So that was huge. Oh, well, that's something. I saw Robin.

I went to Robin last week.

Oh, my God.

And?

It was awesome. It was so great. It was like the first time I saw her at the forum. Like, I love being on the floor, in the back, dancing.

It was great.

I thought, it's such a great show. I just had a blast. I don't really have anything else to report.

It's so stripped down.

She's so cool.

Yeah. Like, she just is like, yeah.

Yeah.

She is so fun and cool.

And even the stuff that's like newer that I didn't know as well, I was having a blast. And then the classics, I just, yeah, love Robin. Recommend anyone go see her whenever they can.

Yeah, she's a fucking superstar. I am reading Yaga right now.

Ah, yes.

Play that the new show is going to be based on with Hudson Williams and Carrie Ann Moss.

And it is good.

It's so sexy and witchy and spooky and fun and funny.

And I don't really read plays. And so.

I'm really into it. Yaga, that's a witch thing, right? Yeah, it's like a Ukrainian Baba Yaga. Yeah, Bob, I was like, why do I know the phrase Baba Yaga? But it's like reinterpreted because it's like, what is an old witch?

Why are people scared?

And then there's like a line where it goes something like, well, she must have been useful to men. Like men would never, like you would never know about a woman who is not useful to men. so this idea like especially one that was like living in an isolated part of the woods like I don't know that was interesting there's just like a lot of interesting things I'm gonna do a book club with some of my other heated rivalry freaks and so nice I'm really and Demois today posted that Connor's story is gonna be on the cover of a magazine so I can't wait to see my magazine guys again Yeah. You're dealers. I haven't been in a while. Okay, I did something kind of crazy. So Jared Goldstein, our luxury friend, he got invited to a Tiffany's event.

Oh, yeah, that's right. You said that. You told us. I was his plus one. I did?

I told you what I did?

You said you were going.

Oh, yeah.

The Asian autumnal event.

You kept telling everyone you were going to an Asian event, and they.

Were like, it's not Asian.

Yeah, but it is. It is.

It was definitely, it was for an autumnal Asian, the autumnal festival.

So autumnal.

Like equinox?

Yeah, something like that. Autumnal equinox, the sun. Yeah, September.

No, it says the 22nd. Whatever. It's something with the moons and stars.

So.

Um, we get there and it's not like an event. Like I thought it was going to be like a party. It was not that at all. It was basically like people getting their clients. And so, um, basically it was like us and three other women and we were in a side room. We were the last one. They did it all day and we made origami. So there's my origami.

Ooh.

Um, it's a moon stars with a bunny. And the guy who was teaching the origami was so fucking hot. I got his card and we're definitely doing an origami event at his studio in Brooklyn.

Okay.

So fucking hot. They brought us bubble teas. But yeah, I was basically just like make origami here.

And we did.

And it was fun, but not what I had in my head. But then I did buy something. And then I was like, what am I doing? Like, you can't just be buying like luxury jewelry for no reason. Like, this is psychotic of you. But I loved it. Like the moment I put it on my wrist, I knew it was mine. And I tried on cheaper. So I was like, that is mine. Like, I have to have it.

So then I go home to do my Russian homework. And the story that I had to read was a story about how possessions overpower you and that you give up your whole life and finances for items.

And then at the end, you're left empty.

So it was like this insane, like Russian fable from the 1920s or something about like spending too much and having the things take over your life. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? So then I get on the Zoom with the girl. I met the girl, the professor. And I'm like, you fucking bitch. I'm like, I can't believe the timing of this. Like, I just spent exorbitant amounts of money for no reason on something I wanted.

And then I have to read this thing. And it's like, I have to, she, you know, I watched the YouTube of it. I'm reading it in Russian. You know, it's like deep in me. And then I opened my mail yesterday and I got a check from the Illinois comptroller out of nowhere for the exact price of the bracelet. For what?

No idea.

I thought it was a scam. I sent it to my business manager. He goes, it looks real to me. Deposited it.

You must have overpaid taxes like a million years ago or something weird.

Who knows?

For the price of the bracelet?

Exact price of the bracelet.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So the autumnal moon fest, definitely on my side. Sprinkled something good on you.

That is nuts. Nuts. That is crazy, dude. So now I know it was meant to be. And I don't know.

They say things don't make you happy, but like I'm looking at my wrist and I love it. I really love it so much. But yeah, we had like a cute night. They gave us some mooncakes.

But I don't know.

It was just like a pleasure. New York's gorgeous right now. It's 70 degrees. I can't wait to do some errands.

Amazing. It's going to be 100 degrees this weekend in LA. And then the entire following week is going to be high 90s. So I'm excited for that. I did see the movie last weekend, Forgotten Island, which is an animated movie that my friend.

I know, it was for kids, but my friend.

I know, but it's like I haven't even heard of it at all. And it's like, oh yeah, the kid market.

That sucks that you.

Haven't heard of it because it's like an $ 80 million budget DreamWorks movie.

And it's like her is one of the voices.

Leah Stolonga.

Leah Stolonga, her... Ronnie Chang! Ronnie Chang, Dave Franco, Jenny Slate are voices.

Oh my God, the woman from Triangle of Sadness, Dolly DeLeon.

Oh my God.

Oh yeah.

And it's like this friend comedy. It's like a best friend comedy about like, memories. And like, it's, it's, it's like, it's very based in, in Filipino culture. And so there's like lots of Filipino, like, you know, folklore and stuff like that in it. I thought it was really great. And I just want people to go see it. Cause it feels like it's not getting the marketing push that it deserves. Like people are not, don't know about it as much, but we were trying to take a Like, in front of the poster. Because our friend is, like, the development executive on it. So she, like, works at DreamWorks and, like, made the movie happen. And, like, she rented out a theater, and then we all went to go see it. And we were trying to take a

picture with the kids, but it was right next to a poster for Primetime, which is the Chris Hansen movie.

And I was like, you guys got to move over.

We can't have the Primetime poster in this picture with you. But I'm really excited to see Primetime. I want to see Primetime so fucking bad.

Yeah. My friend already saw it twice. I was like, wow. You're such an A-lister. I can't.

Cannot wait. I'm like in over my head. I'm so busy. I have five shows tomorrow.

For what? What am I trying to prove?

For what?

For what? Was there a record? It's like, I'm just, I don't know. But then I'm home. Then I'm home.

But. It's so funny. It's like the fourth show offer comes to you and you're like, I guess. And then the fifth one, you're like, why not? Like, I mean, I don't.

He never hurts you to go. I already got four. I got four.

I can't.

No, I don't know.

I don't know. I want to see Forgotten Island. The poster looks like there's friendship bracelets. I definitely have to see Prime Time.

It's very nostalgic, too. There's like 80s and 90s music in it and stuff. Like, it's cool.

It's cute. And the animation is beautiful. And Jenny Slate is a cool character. Like, you know, she's always like in every kid movie now. But... Yeah, I thought it was really cute. Anyway, just a shout out for Forgotten Island. It's kind of like, some people are saying it's like The Hangover, but I actually think it has a lot of elements of Moana in it as well.

The Hangover? Yeah, because it's like these girls go to this like magical island.

Like I'll tell you how they get, like I won't go through how they get there, but they can't remember anything from the night before. So like a lot of the movie is like them rebuilding what happened like the night before.

I've never seen The Hangover.

What?

That's surprising. You heard it here first. Yeah.

What happened?

It just passed you by and you were like, well, now I'm not going to like rent it.

Like when did it come out? Let me see what I was doing with my life. Hangover the movie.

Minus AI. 2009.

That's when I started comedy.

I was busy. Busy. Yeah.

I was busy.

I graduated college.

Or in college. I was in college and like.

I saw it in the theater.

I don't think I cared. No, it was like obviously a huge hit.

I feel like it was like I loved Zach Galifianakis or something at the time. I was like discovering him at that time and was like, I got to go see this guy's movie.

Oh, I'm excited for the Maria Bamford.

Documentary that Judd did.

I really can't wait to watch that.

It's the greatest injustice of our world that like the creepiest, worst people ever are rich. And then we saw her on a flight getting into coach. And I was like, wait, what's going on here? What's going on?

Oh, she's like... Oh, my God.

Okay, so yesterday... By the way, let me just tell our listeners that the documentary is called Paralyzed by Hope, the Maria Bamford story.

People should watch it when it comes out.

And then after her show, Lady Dynamite, is still on Netflix.

Yeah.

So that's like a show that I watched a bunch and I loved it.

I think it was only one season, maybe two, but I watched it over and over.

So I'm on... This is about trusting your... So I'm on a... I am doing a show... yesterday. And I get a text. And first of all, I think I'm texting someone fully different. So I have to start saving numbers.

But I.

Get a text going, hey, do you have a strict timeline today? Because we're going to have some bump in.

What is it?

We're going to have some drop-ins. So your spot's going to be later. And I go, well, that's fine. But who's dropping in? So it's Seinfeld and George Wallace. So obviously that's fine. I go, I just wanted to make sure it's not anyone I hated. I'm not being bumped by someone I disrespect.

So that's fine. So I go, you know, they're quite famous.

It's fine.

So then I still get there kind of early. I walk over there and I see Theo Vaughn, who I hate. And so I go in and I see who's in charge and I go, what the fuck? I go, I asked if it's someone I hated and I was not told the truth. And they go, well, he was just on the lineup. He wasn't a dropout. And I go, well, I don't want to be here. And I would have to wait another hour because everyone was taking so long and stuff. And I was just like, I don't want to fucking be here. And they're like, well, you're already here.

Maybe you should just go up. I go, I'm going next door. So I went next door to have like a couple Manhattan. And I hadn't eaten all day. So it was like seven o'clock, empty stomach.

I had a Manhattan.

The way you're telling this story, you're like, I hadn't eaten all day.

So I had a couple Manhattans.

And now I hear what that sounds like. Poured it into an empty tank. I ordered a lemon pasta as well. Okay, great, great, good, good, good.

But I read my augur. I get back. And I go up really late. It's fine. But I end up having to do the check spot because everything's so late.

So it's like the disrespect, but it's like.

Am I really at a point where I'm annoyed that I'm doing the check spot after Seinfeld, right?

Like, who do you.

But then I look at the lineup. I was the only girl in the lineup. No other girls. All fucking show. So you book me to go last after Jerry Seinfeld while people are passing out checks.

I'll murder you and your whole fucking family. Ha ha ha ha ha. I, but there.

Was a table of hot firemen in the front. So it was like, cool.

And then I'm like, whatever, like the whole, like, they're all jazzed up. I'm going to whip them up. They're going to like, everything will be fine. You know, doing comedy is a gift. But I was just, I couldn't tell if I'm being annoying, if it was annoying, if everything could be true. But like, but then all the servers, of course, were like, thank God you're here. It's been a nightmare.

They're like, ugh.

We need the energy flipped. And it's like, I don't know. I just like, I kind of want to text this guy. Oh, and the little guy who books it, like went out for a hug and I didn't want to hug him. And he goes, ah, what's up? Like, yeah, that was kind of cold. Or like, what word did he say?

Off put.

He said something. I go, I'm not a tactile person. I don't really hug willy nilly. Oh, he goes, yeah, you were acting standoffish. I go, I'm not really a hugger. Like, what the fuck? I'm like, I'm already, I don't know, seeing Theo Vaughn really upset. I was just like, are you fucking kidding me? We have an insurrectionist and a man who dated teens. Like, get me out of here.

And then they're paying the bill as I'm up there. I've been doing this since 2009. I don't know. I just was like, but then I'm like, this is the most probably famous comedian, you know?

So it's fine. Yeah, like, what are you supposed to do?

There's too many people out there for you to, like, not do a show every time you see someone that you don't.

I was just shocked. Agree with or like on a lineup, right? He just doesn't live here, you know? So I just don't see him. And I love the club. It's my favorite. Like I'm usually in such a good mood. So I think they were all kind of shocked at my attitude as well. But I was just like, we'll see. I should check my Venmo.

It just takes one. insurrectionist to put you off put your mood off for the night because.

Then I texted going also.

If the show is already long I don't have to go like I you know I have a busy week so I go I'm I'm fine not to do the show and they're like please come we really want you to come and it's because they didn't book any other way they.

Didn't have any other women So it's like, I'm doing you a favor. I don't know.

I just had a lot of just like, so I went to the barcade and played Qbert for a couple bucks and then walked home.

Just to.

Blow off some steam. Yeah.

I had some keeper time. We should start this.

I just don't know what I'm even complaining about.

Like, you know, you do gigs and you do gigs, but like something about being the only woman having to be there, having to go last while everyone's paying.

Yeah, that's annoying. I could see that.

Yeah.

No, I feel you.

That's and like, You were like under the impression that it wasn't anybody you hated, even though I don't think that they willingly deceived you on that.

It's like, fuck, I thought I did like a check. And now there he is.

Because I had nothing else. Like I should have lied and been like, no, that time is not going to work for me. But I didn't have anything. I only had one spot last night. You know, it was an early night. Like it didn't affect my life. But a part of me wanted to be like, no, I should have just demanded to go first or something.

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Or not, or it's not about me, but then I shouldn't have come. I don't know.

It's something about, like, listening to your instinct, because, like, my gut said I didn't want to go.

Yeah.

But I had a fun set. I mean, the firefighters were so hot.

I'm like, you know, I'm not tall enough to fix the batteries on my smoke detector.

Can you guys come over?

Well, I said, I go, do you ever, do people ever look into the firehouse and then you guys fuck them?

Or, like, what's the vibe? Because I'm always looking in.

Yeah.

But I think they were just trying to be funny because they said yes.

But it's just like, they are just so hot.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Firefighters. I think also because like, in general, you don't, firefighters are like, they're not law enforcement, but they're like people that are supposed to help you that don't often, you don't really hear about firefighters like entering a fire and then like sexually assaulting someone the way like you, like, I love this girl who's on Instagram who's just doing the reports every week of law enforcement who have been caught sexually assaulting people. And it's like, this is just in a week. And it's like so many cases. Firefighters are kind of like just helping, I feel like. Not to say there's never been a firefighter that's been misbehaved, but.

All right. Should we get started? We have another great episode today.

Don't forget to pop over and check out our Patreon. It's patreon.com slash that's messed up. We have some fun interviews coming up and a little Halloween episode. And also that's messed up live.com. Get tickets to our January 24th show in DC, our January 26th show in Brooklyn.

Um, the links are up and live.

The Brooklyn ticket link just went live this week. So grab those ticks, guys. We love the Bell House and we want to see you guys there. And then, yeah, let's get started. All right. We are going back to Stabler's final episode. I mean, final season, season 12, episode 16, Spectacle. And this is like a classic for me. I've seen it so many times, but it was fun to watch again.

The episode opens with a video playing, and we see it's on university intranet at Westmore University. And there's a guy in a black ski mask throwing a girl down on a bed. She is clearly resisting, terrified, awful, screaming. And we see a bunch of college kids are watching this. They all go to this Westmore. I'm shocked it's not Hudson.

They're all like, oh my God, is he going to rape her? And then one guy's like, this has got to be a joke. And he goes to another room and there's more kids gathered around other computers. And everyone's like watching this in various rooms of the dorms. And then the rapist pulls out a knife and a girl is like, that's when the kids are like, oh God, this is like not, this is more fucked up than we thought. Like a girl is like, did some, somebody must've called the cops.

Right.

And then no one answers.

And. There is an actor there named James Three, who is my friend from my mod team back when I was in New York days. And I remember him being in this episode. But the camera zooms in on a tattoo of three Chinese characters on this perp's arm. And then we hear Stabler go, pause it. And obviously, now we're at the precinct. And it's the video of the tattoo.

And Benson and Stabler, in their swan song season together, talking to a campus safety officer, campus security officer, who's answering the girl's question. And goes, nope, he says, not a damn person called it in until after the video ended. So, you know, this is like referencing bystander effect, Katie Genovese, stuff like that. Although I guess part of that's been debunked as we talked about in the episode we did about that.

But there is absolutely a bystander effect.

Even when you see somebody like pulled over on the side of the road looking like they might be in distress. Everybody, I think, goes, oh, I think somebody, they probably already called or somebody already called. You know, like a lot of people just think someone else is already taking care of it, even if it's like a less high stakes situation.

And they say the video played only on campus. No one knows where it came from. Stabler clocks the cinder block walls and is like, maybe it's an empty dorm room. And the security guy is like, well, the dorms are all full except one that's closed for renovation. Yeah, that's where crime would happen. Cuts to the cops busting into all these different door rooms and then Liv finds the one and no one is in the room but there is a nasty mattress and painted on the wall is a monkey with his hands over its eyes and the words, see no evil. Like, I do sort of like a wild goose chase when the perp is leaving clues. I do like that in this show. And now we're at the credits. So, Top of Act One and the CSU

tech is there with no good news. No prints, no DNA, nothing. The perp wiped it clean. He's like, I can still smell the bleach. It's been less than an hour since the video was streaming. Wow, they really got that campus safety officer quick. And they are like, this guy's really fast. And then Taru Lieutenant, he's been promoted, Ruben Morales, aka friend of the pod, Joel De La Fuente, pipes in and goes, or it wasn't a live show. All this guy needed was internet and basic hacking skills, and he could make it look like it was live streaming, but it was pre-recorded.

But, like, what are all the hackers doing right now? Or do we just assume that they're evil? Like, why aren't the hackers hacking? Bring out the piss tapes. Show us the pedophilia. Like, get the tapes out.

I don't know.

Get the footage.

Do it.

I know there's, like, anonymous, but, like, aren't most hackers... Get in there.

Aren't most hackers motivated by money? Yeah. Like, if no one's offering them money for that... Is this what Mr. Robot's about? Oh.

I don't know.

Because maybe I'll watch it. Yeah, Mr.

Robot's fucking good, but it's dark as hell.

I mean.

Yeah, because there was, like, a pedophile. I saw, like, one thing in my, you know, YouTubes.

Yes. That's, like, one storyline for sure. But Mr. Robot is, like, about corporate greed and... destroying the systems of capitalism that are, like, ruining all of our lives.

That's what that's about.

And using your tech, and a lot of them are, and he is a hacker, and he is friends with a lot of other hackers.

But, like, why aren't that, so that they're just in it for the money? Well, they, no.

He, I would say, the main character, is, has, like, a conscience, and also, like, his mom died from something that this company did, so he has, like, a sense of, like, revenge, and then he's got his, um, best friend, who's a woman that he's actually pretty, like, in love with, I think, is, also works at the company. And it's, it's really a twisty show. Like, I'm simplifying it so hard right now. Like, it's, there's a lot going on in that show. But I, I really liked Mr. Robot.

But also, like, why can't we get some hackers that are just motivated? Like, can't they make cash on the side? Like, I know, I think some are.

I just don't know how they can get to the Epstein files or whatever.

But like, I don't know. That's a great, like, question.

Like, ruin their lives. Get the medical records out. Like, do some damage. Like, what the fuck? Yeah.

These nerds are trying to get fucked. This would help them. Okay, so in walks Cragen with some news. The police in Cleveland have Nigel Clemens. I don't think we're supposed to know who that is. I looked it up. And I couldn't find anything else except that that name is mentioned in this episode. So I don't think it's from another episode.

But Liv, you got to get to Ohio right now. I was trying to Google why Liv would be sent out of this episode early. Some people on Reddit were speculating that they would sometimes do double episodes. And in those, they would send a character out early so that they could start working on another episode. Like if they would do, you know, like kind of double banking episodes.

Yeah, yeah.

I just heard thunder. It wasn't supposed to rain today. Besides her pregnancy, there's not, and her going out like that and the Homeland Security, like there's not that many times where they're like, Liv, get out of here, right? Don't you have that conference? Like it's usually for kids stuff. And then I think this point, it might've been like a double banking. Who knows? Maybe she had another opportunity or something that we don't know about, but I was Googling it and I wasn't finding anything besides that. She's like, I can't leave mid-case. And Cregan's like, not a request, obviously.

Get the hell out of here. They have security photos of this guy in the mask bringing the girl into the building. And Stabler wonders if he has stashed her somewhere on the campus. Cragen's like, you need to track down all the students who saw it. Okay. So now we get obviously to the montage of talking to these busy college kids. All of them can't stop moving to talk to a cop about a pretty horrific thing that they witnessed like earlier today or yesterday. Finn is talking to a blonde and she's like, I don't think that girl goes to the school. It's a really small school.

And I do work study in the admissions office. So I feel like I know excuse me, who most people are. And now Stabler's talking to my friend James Three, who's explaining, you know, I figured someone else would call the cops. And Stabler's like, even though it looked like she was being raped, and he goes, pretty lame excuse, right? And now Cregan is like chasing a girl down in the library.

And she's like, can you, he's like, can you just chill for two seconds? She's like, I have an English lit final. Like they will not stop moving. And he asked her about the tattoo. And then a dude Stabler's talking to says, I've seen a couple guys walking around campus with that tattoo. I asked what it meant once and I was told to piss off. And so back at Taru, Morales is telling them that it might not be a student.

The hat came from outside the house.

Like, and this guy is a pro because Morales cannot track it. And Stabler's asking everyone like, well, why would this guy do this so only kids on campus could see it? And Huang weighs in and goes to create a spectacle drink for the name of the episode or hit your joint or take a sip of a non-alcoholic beverage.

He's raping her to get attention, to impress his friends, to create mass terror as revenge on the school is what Huang is, you know, doing his profile on the fly. And he goes, I think the tattoo is trying to say try or die, but it reads pie or die, which I think is, I am obsessed with people doing Chinese characters and getting it wrong. A friend of mine had I think he thought he was getting something really cool and then he found out that his tattoo meant expensive.

So that's just funny to me. Finn comes in screaming, well, the tattoo's not in the gang database. I ran it through.

I got one hit. Carl Cooper, age 22.

He was a junior at Westmore who was expelled last year and then was collared for sex abuse three.

And he lives a couple blocks from the school.

So it's a cold ass date on the New York City streets and Carl Cooper's coming out of his apartment. Stabler calls out his name. He runs, jumps over the railing. Finn's like, it's too cold for this shit. They get him comically quickly. Like in two seconds, he's against the hood of the car. It's like truly wild that he even tried. Stabler pulls a bag of pills out of his pocket. Cooper's like, it's Adderall. I have a prescription.

So now in cement room bar, Stabler's like, yeah, it's so easy to get these. Now you just tell a shrink you have ADD and they write you a script, no questions asked. Like, and it's like, LOL, there are so many questions asked. Like I actually take this medication and it is so hard for me to fucking get it.

I have to do doctor's appointments every two months. Used to be every three.

Now it's every two to just be like, yes, the medication I've been taking for 10 years plus is working fine. I have to, like, go and get it. Like, I can't have it mail-ordered. I have to go get it because it's, like, a controlled substance. Do you think that's with the times?

Like, do you think since this is 12, like, has it gotten stricter?

Yeah, it's changed for sure. It's gotten so strict. But I just, like, think it's so funny to be like, no questions asked. I'm like, so many questions. Like, it's actually super hard for me to get it. But at that time, 2011, this episode came out, yeah. I think people were, like, just getting it. But, and it was a lot easier— for me to get it back then too.

Cooper is like, no, it's legit. I couldn't concentrate to study. It's a real prescription, I swear. And they're like, what about, this guy has a sex abuse charge on his record.

And they're like, well, what happened? And he goes, nothing. That was so overblown. I just like kissed a girl.

And Stabler's like, she said you jammed your hands down her pants. So, and he's like, she wanted it. She only started accusing me after her boyfriend found out. And it's like, wow, what a cool guy. And Stabler slams down the picture of the mass perp and the victim and is like, where is she? And he goes, more like, who is she? And Stabler pulls up his sleeve to reveal the tattoo and like busted. And he goes, I was in a frat at Westmore and this tattoo was part of the initiation. And that was tough. Yeah. He goes, try or die, dozens of guys in the frat have the same ink. And he says he hasn't been to that dump since they kicked him out. And he didn't rape or kill anyone. And he looks really smug about it.

And he probably, we don't think he did this one, but I don't think he's a good guy. So now on the other side of the one-way glass, Stabler's chatting with White House black market spokeswoman, ADA Jillian.

Hardwick, who's like, sorry, boys.

Hey, later.

The tattoo alone is not going to get you a warrant for the frat house. I need a name.

And Cragen's like, well, can't we hold him on the Adderall?

Even though he has a.

Prescription, they were individually packed up baggies for sale. Like he was going to sell them. And Hardwick's like, let me see if I can get that to fly. And then the rest of them go to check with the bros at Phi Delta. Yeah. So at the frat house, some guy is there wearing a Greek letters on a sweatshirt.

And he's like, Carl Cooper was a douche. We kicked him out before the school did. He was creeping too hard. We used to call it cooping a feel. So, okay, at least this, I guess this fraternity has morals and somehow doesn't like it when their guys are too aggressive.

And they kicked him out.

This guy is trying to act like his frat is too classy for that behavior. But Finn's like, yeah, right. It smells like beer and bong hits in here. Um, and then asking about the Adderall, he shrugs it off. He goes, it's the new caffeine. When was the last time you pulled an all nighter bra? And Stabler goes last night bra. And he, uh, they show him a screenshot of the video of the attack to see if he recognizes anyone. And he's like, whoa. And he goes over to a huge photo wall, takes down a picture and hands it to the cops and pick is of this guy with this girl. And he's like, no one invited her. Yeah. He's like, no one invited her. She just like walked into the party. Her name is Lizzie Harmon.

She goes to Juilliard. So Finn and Stabler open her door to her dorm room apartment. I can't really tell which is unlocked and they noticed no forced entry. Maybe she knew this guy, but lamps are knocked over. There was clearly a struggle in this place and on her apartment wall, done, done. There's the same monkey sign, but now it has the here, no evil monkey as well.

So see no evil, hear no evil. And Finn goes, I guess we know what comes next. And Sabler goes, yeah, but what the hell does it mean? Commercial. Craig and Sabler are on the scene at the Juilliard place and CSU goes, yeah, there's like tons of hairs and fibers, but nothing that indicates that she was hurt in the apartment.

Finn says local businesses know her by name, but no one saw her getting like dragged out of the building. Maybe cameras on the buildings caught something. And then we cut to Stabler debriefing everyone at the precinct. He goes, the cams caught a masked man going into Lizzie's place two nights ago before eight o'clock. And this is around when neighbors reported a ruckus in her apartment. And Cragen wants to know what time they left the building. But the problem is it looks like they never did, but they possibly took the service stairs.

And Cooper's off the hook.

He was getting high with his buds, and a landlord confirms that he was home when Lizzie got taken. So they're going to have to track down every dude with a tattoo, and the president of the frat is making a list. And just then, Finn interrupts. Lizzie's mother has just arrived. Her mother is in woodroom blinds, crying. She heard from Lizzie two nights ago. She doesn't have a boyfriend.

She practices all the time. She's studying piano at Juilliard. And she told her mom, you know, classic. Every parent that says, my daughter doesn't have a boyfriend, she's too busy doing X, has a boyfriend, and something bad is happening. And then she told her mom that she met a boy a week ago, but wasn't sure if she liked him, but said he kept calling her. So now, Finn has done the phone dump, and there are dozens of calls from Lizzie's phone to the same five numbers. All unregistered, disposable cell phones, all untraceable. The phones, they can't track the phones. Because they can't, I guess. And then like, but later they do track a disposable, like a burner.

So I don't really get it. And I Googled it and it says burners are traceable. These are untraceable, but they did track them back to where they came from. I think some, maybe, did they say Ukraine or something or Czech?

I don't know, somewhere. I'm like, sorry, I forgot.

And They all ended up at a check-cashing place on the Upper West Side, and the store owner emailed them surveillance photos of the people who purchased the phones.

Wow.

A check-cashing place with working security cameras who immediately sent them surveillance photos. Four of the pictures show up on the screen, and one of the people is, dun-dun, one of the guys that we first saw watching the video in the dorm room, the guy who told them, that he asked about the tattoo and was told to piss off.

I also feel, back to the check cashing places, I think they cooperate with cops because they need their protection. Because if they get robbed or this or someone, it's kind of how most of the bars, and everyone has to grease the wheels of the cops if you have a business here.

You got to make your presence known. Yeah, that makes sense.

And I feel like a lot of them, they take just enough, information to shirk culpability for themselves, but still let a ton of sketchy stuff go through. He had an ID. It's the fakest ID you've ever seen, but they do it. So Stabler clocks the kid right away. He's like, oh my gosh, I talked to that kid.

That's Gregory Engels. And Cragen goes, tell us campus security to grab him. And then Morales alerts the gang, uh-oh, Lizzie's back online. And now Lizzie is tied to the bed, to a bed with ropes in her underwear, screaming for help. And Stabler's looking at the video and, you know, mentally superimposing one of his daughter's faces over Lizzie's.

Like you could tell when he goes to that far-off place, he's like, I have daughters.

And then Cragen pipes in that Craig Engels is a junior in computer science. Dun-dun. Like, why he's so good at doing all this shit and they can't crack it. And nobody has seen him since that morning. Morales says, well, he just flunked this class. He didn't even put up a firewall this time. He's in Hell's Kitchen four blocks away. Like, yeah, it's not, it's clearly not going to be it. Like, you know, he's not that dumb. So they're on West 36th Street. Finn and Stabler enter this abandoned apartment and it's empty. No Lizzie, just a laptop with three monkeys on it. See no evil, hear no evil, and now speak no evil has joined the party. So Greg set us up. Duh. The image then disappears on the laptop

that's been, that was sitting there with the monkeys on it. The image disappears and it like fades into live footage of Lizzie tied up again. And Finn's like, how is he doing this? And then cut to the precinct and Morales has the answer. It's like, he's like, it's not that hard. He set up a laptop. He broke into the wifi of the law firm next door. And then Stabler posits that this son of a bitch is getting off on manipulating them. And Huang is like, as usual, is there to be like, hold up, Stabler, not so fast.

Like the brownstone is actually significant to Greg, the place where they just were led. It's where he and his brother lived with their foster parents. Their biological parents died in a Caribbean plane crash. And Greg's little brother, Jason, was abducted outside that very brownstone two years later. Sablo remembers the case and he's like, oh man, we never found the kid. Hwang is like, well, I think Greg finally snapped and points out that there's a little monkey on Jason's t-shirt. So that's maybe where all the like monkey imagery is coming from. Hwang thinks Greg is doing all of this for control because like, you know, he lost all this control with his brother's case.

He has no family. And that he's doing all this to get control back.

And then just then, Stabler gets a text, obviously written in T9, right to his little flip phone. And it says, I'm done playing games. If you want Lizzie back, come alone. CSU has confirmed that Greg's prints are all over Lizzie's apartment. Stabler is like sketchily standing off to the side, trying to reply to the text, being like, who is this?

Finn notices... He doesn't say anything, but he just notices Stabler being weird. And then the next text says, drive north and I'll send you directions. Huang and Finn and everybody are chatting like we can't back this guy into a corner. Freaks like him always slip up, blah, blah, blah. Then Stabler gets another text and it's of the monkey image.

So it's very clear that the person he's texting is Greg. He's proved it with all these like insider bits about the case. So it says, leave now, I'm watching you. And then Stabler starts like eyes darting around the room trying to figure out how is this guy watching me in the NYPD? And he clocks like six webcams on top of all of these Dell big-ass desktops they have.

So like I'm sure NYPD is not as locked down as it probably should be with cybersecurity in 2011. So it's possible he's just like hacked into one of these webcams and is just watching what the cops are doing right now. So now it's nighttime. Stabler pulls up to like a pretty... gross-looking alleyway, and he sees Monkey See Monkey Do with the monkey images spray-painted on a door.

He slides the door open, goes inside, and shuts the door behind him. Then he takes an old-ass elevator down to a basement, and he has his gun drawn, and he calls out Greg's name, and Greg's like,' I don't have a weapon. You're not in danger.' Stabler tries to arrest him. He's, like, hands up, and Greg has, like, a tablet in one hand. It's an iPad. And he shows a video of Lizzie still tied to the bed.

And there's a guy in the video wearing all black, wearing a black ski mask. And he goes, yeah, so you have an accomplice. And he's like, yeah, my little monkey. And if he doesn't get a signal from me every two minutes, he'll kill her. And Stabler's like, how do I know this wasn't filmed two hours ago? And then Greg pushes a button on the iPad and the accomplice slaps Lizzie across the face.

So they've set up a system. And Stabler asks what he wants.

And he unzips his jacket and pulls out this thick file with Jason's.

Picture on the front. And he goes, I want you to find my brother. So a twist.

Back at the precinct, Finn is working with Morales, but Greg is too good. Every time they find a way in, there's a minefield that gets set up, more code, like pages of code just start downloading. And I don't know what it means, but Morales is not, you know, feeling optimistic. Finn wants to know, why Lizzie? Like, is there money involved here? And Kragan's like, where's Elliot? And Finn's like, I just noticed he was gone 30 minutes ago. I love he said nothing. And then they call him. His phone is going straight to voicemail. Like, why the hell would he do that, Kragan wonders. And now we're back to Stabler at the warehouse showing Greg that he turned off his phone. And Stabler's like, I still have my gun.

And the guy's like, well, I still have the girl. And he demonstrates another slap across the face with his little button push. So Stabler's asking, do you get off on abusing women? You don't even have the balls to do it yourself. And Greg is like, shut the fuck up.

Read the file.

I add the fucks, obviously, but that's how I express myself. Greg is played, by the way, by Spencer Treat Clark.

He looks so familiar.

He's so familiar. He started as a child actor. You've seen him in other stuff. He was in Double Jeopardy. He played a young character in Double Jeopardy. He was in Gladiator. He was in Unbreakable. And then as an adult, he was a regular.

Unbreakable, of course.

He has, like, he has that, like, sort of, like, angelic, cherubic little kid face that I get him confused with the little psycho from Conscience. You know how that kid kind of has that face, too? Just sort of, like, a bowl cut or, like, whatever. Or, like, this guy has kind of more, like, a wispy, like, long cut. But, like, he just has that child actor face. And then as an adult, he was a regular on the show Animal Kingdom.

And I don't even know if I remember this, But he was in the classic SVU episode, Families. He is the brother of the dead girl. Yes.

Yes. I fucking knew it. I fucking knew it.

Yes.

Oh, my God.

So, Families is famously the episode. We've done this at live shows, never on the pod. But it's the one, I slept with my sister, you know, whatever, with the kid from.

What's he from?

One Tree Hill?

Yeah. And... He, this brother, at one point, his own mother accuses him of raping his sister. And she's like, get down here and just beats the shit out of him. And it's this kid from this episode. Anyway, Stabler's like, why'd you go through all this trouble to get me here? And he's like, I've done my homework. I know SVU has one of the NYPD's highest clearance rates. So he's like, why not just call me on the damn phone? What's with all this monkey crap? And he's like, it's to frustrate you, to give you a little taste of what I've been going through for years. And again, he tells Stabler, read the file. And Stabler starts going through it. So Jason was abducted July 24th, 2003 from West 37th and

10th Avenue. Detective Fiddler logged hundreds of hours on the case, but then Greg interrupts and goes, for two weeks. And then some other tragedy knocked my brother's case off the front page. You cops just walk away, file papers, label it a cold case, and not this time. And Stabler's like, I really want to help you, but not like this.

For every cop out there searching for Lizzie right now, they could be help finding your brother. And he's like, they don't give a damn about Jason.

But as long as I've got Lizzie, I can make you care.

So then Stabler goes, yeah, you just like to cause pain.

I can do that too.

And he grabs Greg by the neck and neck is taunting him going, go ahead, break my neck. Anything happens to me, she's dead before you get into the elevator. So back at the precinct, Cray and Finn are working on the Elliot Stabler missing person case. Finn remembers Stabler looking at his phone. So we're going to pull up all his phone recs. Meanwhile, Morales has finally gotten somewhere on breaking into Greg's shit, and he's found tons of emails to every law enforcement agency in New York City asking for follow-up, providing tips, begging for help. So now Stabler is praising Greg's work.

Like, on the case.

He's like, wow, you really, like, did a lot of thorough stuff here. He's like, I did everything. I even hired a PI. And Stabler's like, and what happened? And he's like, well, first people were polite, then they stopped paying attention, and then I became a nuisance.

I never gave up and I never will. Would you?

And Stabler's like, no, I'd do the same thing you are doing. And he's like, my parents are dead. Jason's all I've got. And then the day Jason was taken, he's just telling Stabler the story. We were both out on the street alone. Our foster parents were getting high on their foster money. And he said, neighbor.

Well, on drugs they bought with their foster money.

And he said a neighbor gave him a couple bucks for taking out their garbage.

So they went out.

There was a bodega on the corner that had Italian ices. Jason loved cherry. Jason was three. Greg was 12. So then he said, suddenly, I was knocked down from behind. When I got up, I saw a car pulling away with no license plate. They go through all the neighbors who were on the streets as witnesses. They all saw the whole abduction scene. And Stabler explains the bystander effect again. Like, it's a callback to the bystander effect. Like, nobody does anything because they think someone else will. Not me.

I'm getting involved.

No, yeah.

We're calling. I'm getting involved.

The same thing happened with all the students watching the live stream and, like, doing nothing.

So.

He's like, Jason must have been scared to death. And then Stabler goes, yeah, just like Lizzie is right now. And Greg's like, what?

Shut up.

And then Stabler, like Stabler tells him to let her go. And he promises he'll keep working Jason's case. And he says, she's dead unless you find my brother. And then back at the precinct, Morales is going through all the cell phone pings on Elliot's phone. So they're figuring out the trail. So Engels must be giving him directions on the fly. So, okay, they figured it out that it's Greg. So now he's in Queens with Greg and we're screwed, him and us.

And Morales goes, actually, I think I can trace the burner phone.

What? This kid bought five burner phones.

We couldn't trace any of them, but now we can trace this one okay whatever um I'm ready to I'm ready to keep going for the plot um Stabler tells Greg um I can't see the answer here like I'm not giving up but I just like this is like I need other resources like I can't see the answer right here tell me about your brother anything you remember Brown.

Hair, blue eyes.

They made forts together and pretended to be back at home. He called him Gig because he couldn't say Greg when he was little. And Stabler's like, dude, you were 12 years old. It's not your fault. Greg gets defensive. He goes, you think I'm doing this because I feel guilty? And he's like, no, you lost your brother, the only person you loved in the world. I can't imagine that pain or what it would make me do. And he's like, no, you can't. And he's like, but I'm guessing Lizzie's mother can.

She's going through the same agony you've been going through for eight years.

Let her go.

You have my attention. And you can see Greg's starting to soften. He goes, you promised you'll work on Jason's case. And Stabler goes, you.

Have my word. And Greg goes, okay.

But then they hear footsteps and someone opening the doors. And Craig's like, they tracked you. And Stabler goes, I turned my phone off, dumbass. Did you turn yours off? And Computer Genius obviously forgot this one very simple detail in all of the extremely intricate planning he's been done. He forgot to turn off his own phone. Maybe because we all thought you can't trace burners. Anyway, we... We hear Greg in calling for Elliot, who responds, Captain, I'm all right. Back off. And he's back to Greg going, where's Lizzie? And Greg goes, go to hell and slams the table. Again, why are you mad at him? He did turn off his phone. You are the reason the cops are there, not him. But he slams the tablet

on the ground and stomps on it. And then Cragen busts in with a team, guns drawn. They tell Greg to put his hands up and he goes, she's dead. You killed her. And then we see the accomplice on the like broken iPad. We see the accomplice approaching Lizzie with a knife and then the screen cuts out. So now act four, they're taking Greg out to the cop car.

Stabler's begging for Lizzie's location, at least give her mother some peace. And Craig is like zipped it up. He's not talking. Morales and Cregan are talking to Elliot and they're like, they're like, what happened down in that basement? He goes, honestly, nothing like nothing that's going to help this case. But I was getting into Greg's head. And then he's like, um, is he that screwed up and beaten down that he would take Lizzie's life?

And then he, he thinks, no, I think.

So he stops the cop car driving away with Greg and gets into the back seat with him.

And he's like, why are you frowning?

It's over. You smashed your iPad. Your monkey murdered Lizzie. Like, isn't this what you wanted? Basically he's like, if you were a deranged psycho, like you're pretending to be, you'd be grinning right now. Right? Like everything you got to murder somebody. Um, But you had no intention of telling us where Lizzie is because you just want revenge on the NYPD. That's why you've been leading us on this goose chase and torturing that girl. And Greg's like, that's a lie. I just wanted someone to pay attention to care about Jason. And he's like, you got a sick way of showing it. Well, what do you know about what I've been through? I don't care about anything anymore.

I don't care if I live or I die. And Stabler's like, so then why are you crying? And he's like, I never wanted to kill her. And then Stabler's like, she's still alive, isn't she? And Greg's like, yeah, she is. And he's like, find out what happened to my brother. I mean, a dog with a bone, this kid. So at the precinct, Finn's like, the only thing colder than this case is you making us start from scratch on it, dude.

And Craig and his traffic copping, even Juan gets an assignment. He's like, Juan, pull all the known sex offenders from Jason's neighborhood in 2003. And then the rest are going to track down and re-interview all the witnesses. So now montage of all these witness accounts. One guy goes, I saw a kid getting dragged into the car. I thought he was just having a tantrum. The car was a green station wagon. Next woman goes, no, it was a beige sedan. I mean, that is a wild difference from green station wagon to beige sedan.

I just don't.

I know eight years have gone by, but that's what she said in her original report too. She says she saw a sketchy guy buying marijuana and that's Jack Delmar. And they're talking to him now. He's British for no reason. And he says, I was there to visit a player on the soccer team. Oh, we heard you were buying drugs.

He goes, what are you talking about? Who told you that? The boy got a concussion the day before. And Cregan's like, wait, you coach soccer? And Jack goes, yeah, I still do. What can I say? I love kids. looking like an absolute poster man for pedophilia, not to judge a book, but like the man looks creepy. And then he's like, what can I say? I love kids. I just don't understand why this part even comes up. It does not have anything to do with anything. And now a young woman says, I saw the kid get shoved into the car.

My instincts told me something was off, but I just thought someone else would intervene. And she's like, I'm positive it was a man who took Jason. And she says, nothing else was weird about that day. I think, and then she starts naming all her neighbors. I go, I saw this person, I saw this person, I saw Mr.

This, Mrs.

That. And what I think is weird is that she knows all of her neighbors' names and is describing them and exactly what they were doing that day. But, Other than the abduction, she said, yeah. I'm like, what? Why would you remember?

But then it's like in Michelle McNamara, like when there's a dead body found or someone gets kidnapped, that day might be more like in your brain.

That day would crystallize for you. I'm just saying, you know all your neighbors' names? Like I knew like one, two of my neighbors in my building and like, that's after living there for 11 years.

Like, I just don't know. You think, whatever.

So she was like, besides the abduction, totally normal day. And at the end, all their stories still hold up. And they're all the same as the day of the crime. Like, they're all like basically exactly what they told detectives eight years ago. Just when it seems like they've got nothing, Benson saunters back in from Ohio. Yes, she does.

Looking gorgeous.

Like, literally, I don't know what's in that Ohio water, but hair's looking good. So now the gang is in the dark squad room. Now, can I say New York water works the best for me?

It really does.

My curls are so good when I'm home. New York water's great. I used to drink this straight out of the tap. Like, look at my— this is an air dry, and I didn't even brush it. And this is not even the first day.

Like— Popping. They look incredible. No product?

Nothing.

I didn't even comb it.

And I was getting all these compliments about my curls.

Yesterday or wherever I was.

And I was like, really?

What?

Really?

And I think it's the New York water. I really belong in this city.

Yeah.

It's so true. So now the gang is in the dark squad room and Finn says, yeah, the cops back in 03 checked for all the sex offenders. They came up empty. They've got three different descriptions of the car. Green, beige, midnight blue, sedan, station wagon, and hatchback. Only thing they agree on is that Jason was shoved into a car by some guy. And Stabler's like, what if it wasn't a man? And he's like, it's something that Mindy, the last woman who knew every neighbor's name, said to me.

She mentioned Mrs. Penner, but there's nothing in Mindy's original report about Mrs. Penner. And Benson's like, I haven't seen that name mentioned in any of these files at all.

So why wasn't this woman questioned? Was she there? What happened? So Stabler goes to ask Greg, like, what's up with Mrs.

Penner? And he's like, oh yeah, I used to babysit her kid, Danny. And he goes, she wasn't there the day Jason was kidnapped. Her parents lived on Staten Island and she was all broken up after Danny died and she moved back in with them.

And it's like, okay, way to bury the lead.

Danny's dead. And he apparently died of leukemia at age three. And then the day she moved off of our block, she was crying and screaming, saying all she wanted was her little boy back. So obviously as an SVU watcher, we're putting the pieces together. So cut to the facts. Miriam Penner spent six weeks in Bellevue, psych ward, after her son died in April 03. She's got a green 99 Subaru wagon since before Jason disappeared. And so one witness got it right. And they think she... They think that once she gets out of Bellevue, she goes back to the old neighborhood, grabs Jason to replace Danny.

How does she explain him to her parents? Finn checked.

The Staten Island parents thing is a lie. Her parents live in Boca. Benson says that she called Penner's house and said she was doing a survey. And the woman who answered said she was a babysitter. But Benson's like, I think it was her. But she may be on to them if she's been watching the news, right? So we're at the Penner home in Staten Island. Unis were sent to watch the house, but they said they've seen no one go in or out. Suddenly, just as Stabler and Benson pull up, the garage door opens, a car engine starts, and the car comes screeching in reverse like a bat out of hell out of the garage. Again, comically quickly, they pull up right behind her, stop her, demand she get out of the car. They pull her out.

She's like, I'm going to visit my mother in Florida. The car is like packed to the brim with shit. And they open the trunk and they remove a couple things and Benson finds Jason and And Miriam's like, he's my son. And Jason's buried underneath all this crap in the car.

He's asleep.

He's breathing, but he won't wake easily. So they figure he's sedated. She's screaming, don't take him. He's my whole life. They arrest her for kidnapping while the paramedics take Jason away. And Stabler looks haunted watching this unhinged woman screaming, my baby, my baby, don't take my baby. So then Stabler goes into Greg's cell and says, okay, we're going to go see Lizzie now.

We found your brother. And Greg's like, what? Where is he?

And they're like, he's being checked out by a doctor. Now take us to Lizzie. Cuts the police busting into an apartment where Lizzie and the Fidel guy from earlier, who I think is named Doug, the guy they talked to at the beginning who showed them the picture of Lizzie, are just sitting on a couch fully clothed with pizza in front of them.

And he asks if she's okay. I feel like they're dating. Yes, for sure.

Yeah. And he asks if she's okay. And she says, yeah. And then I fucking knew it. The minute they said Juilliard, I was like, this is a role of a lifetime. Like when they said Juilliard, I thought actress, even though she plays piano, I just thought. And Sabler goes, what the fuck is going on? And the guy goes, hey, brah, you could have knocked. And it's like, you're like literally in trouble for like engineering a hoax.

And you're like telling the guy, bro, boycott.

Code.

Like I could have been hooking up, you know?

And then that's obviously a callback to the bra talk from earlier. Because I honestly didn't even recognize the guy as the same guy, but it is him.

And Stabler goes, shut up, Fiedelt.

And then Craig's like, Lizzie wasn't raped. Doug never kidnapped her. No harm done. And Finn's like, well, tell that to Lizzie's mom and the dozens of cops that you've put through hell.

And Lizzie says, Greg needed our help.

And she's like grabbing a towel to wipe off her black eye makeup. And she's like, can I call my mom? And then Greg's like, you can just bust me. I'm responsible for all of this, but it was worth it. Just let me see my brother before you take me in. And Greg turns around and Benson is standing there with Jason and... LOL to them staging this reunion while they're in the hideaway apartment of this stage rape kidnapping murder. Like, it must have been a really quick check at the hospital.

They're like, let's just take him over there. We'll do it there. But what a kooky plan.

And it really worked for him.

Yeah. And Greg's like, Jason, Jason, it's me. And Jason just stares at him. And then like slowly after a minute starts walking towards him. And then he gives him a big hug and he calls him Gig. So we know that he recognizes him. And Greg is so happy and honestly, maybe the smartest mastermind of all time. Like, he got everything he wanted. And I wonder what his charges will be. Like, what will the charges be? They'll probably just be like computer crimes, right?

Of like... No, because it's like staging a kidnapping. It's like a false report. He didn't report it. Yeah, he didn't report it, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

Losing the services. There's going to be a lot.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think he'll do that much jail time considering that the NYPD did ignore the case for eight years and it was sort of simple for them to figure out in half a day when they revisited it as a squad. Obviously, it's a TV.

Show, but.

Benson looks really happy for the two brothers. Stabler looks torn and shook and maybe like he needs to sleep for the first time in 48 hours. He just has like that kind of like distant look in his eyes. And that's Dick Wolf, baby.

I like this one.

This one's twisty.

Yeah, it really like goes by fast.

And I think there's been other episodes where they've had girls being streamed. getting tortured where I'm like, oh, she's acting, right? Because I think it's this one.

But there's also been a bunch where someone takes a kid that's not there.

Oh, obviously it's SV.

Yeah, yeah.

Like in this type of manner. Like, that's my baby. Yeah, everyone is sick. Crimes in the wiki have nothing to do with it. And I went, I'm going to figure it out. Found two crimes that match pretty good. So we need to put our own stuff in the wiki. I don't know how to edit it or if our listeners can.

Take care of it. But I did the research.

I'll talk about the two crimes that have nothing to do with the episode. And then I'll do two crimes, one very close and interesting. And I'm just proud of myself that I kept... Kept searching. Kept searching, knowing there was something. Because I was like, the time period's not right. Like, I'm going to be able to find something.

And I did.

And I felt cool.

But the two cases that were in the wiki, I was like, these seem interesting, but I didn't know.

Interesting for sure. Nothing to do with anything. I don't know the rules of the wiki. But you guys, please help me and get my crimes in there for the next person that is researching the episodes based on the crimes.

Yeah.

Like, who is doing this? And the first case is the Will Hendrick case. This happens in Idaho, Moscow, Idaho. Which is where the murders just happened.

Yeah.

The same place in Idaho. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, the university.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

So, and it's been, yeah, 27 years since Will, the University of Idaho theater student, vanished as his final semester was starting.

He was 25.

He was a little older than what we think is like, you know, a senior in college, but he did a brief stint in the Navy. And he grew up in Idaho near the Nez Perce Indian Reservation south of Moscow.

So it's like in New Lewiston, New Lewiston.

And that paper, ironclad.

Ironclad to get some information from the Lewiston Times.

Yeah.

They want their memberships, which I understand. Like, that's what's crazy.

It's like, I want journalism to be real and good and valued.

But then I'm also like, just let me read it.

Yeah.

I can't get a few for free? You need all my information and then stalking me forever? I know this is an old problem we've had, but it just bothers me. So January, it's kind of, it's the same thing with like Connor and Hudson on set. Like I think it's wrong and I want them to be left alone. But like every time I see a photo, I'm like thrilled beyond belief. A photo of Connor just came out holding a bunch of Marlboro cigarettes that are duty free. And it's like, love that. Love you holding some duty free cigs. Okay, so it's January 1999. We're back to this horrific case.

He went out one night with some friends and then he never made it home. So his partner, Jerry Schultz, and friends started searching for him. And now, so what was happening was there was a party. So the information about the party and then there's like theories of who did it are not in real sources, right? They're like a little shady of sources. I would not say they're credible. So, this is a lot of hearsay and friends. Like, the investigation wasn't that good. Like, I'm not really sure what went down. So, he went to the party on the second floor, like theater kid party. And then on the third floor was more of a jock party.

So.

There was interminglings between the parties and like one of the girl, the theater girls and the jock guys were dating and they were fighting. And so he did get involved and was like concerned about what was going on. And he was at the back stairwell of the apartment and one of the girls went inside to call the girlfriend that was angry and like had left earlier to like make sure she went home, like got home. And then when this other girl came out back outside, Will was gone.

Yeah. So, he was seen at 2.30 a.m. It was, like, the last time he was seen.

And so, the next morning, when, like, he didn't come home, and, like, Jerry's like, where the fuck is he? And then people also heard his car zip away. Like, his car wasn't there, but, like... Also, he was drunk. He wouldn't have driven. Like there's just like no one really knows exactly what happened. And it's all kind of it's kind of maybe it has to do with the episode of like some people say this car that some people say this happened.

We don't know.

They traced the friends and the boyfriend all traced the path he would have taken if he walked home instead of driving.

No sign of him.

And then his vehicle was found parked downtown. And the driver's seat was pushed all the way back, which is not how we would normally have it. Like, someone else was driving. Also, the tires covered in mud. And, like, right away, I'm like, wait, wait, wait. So, like, there's no prints. There's no nothing. Like, why is the mud not being held? Like, why is there no information?

And so.

And then the Wayne Roush, the lead investigator of the case, said that both the driver and passenger windows of the car were rolled down a couple inches and that the cold winter air seeped through the cracks and that washes away any possible prints.

I didn't know that cold can get rid of prints.

Nor did I. Sketchy. Okay.

It's sketchy. And then the keys were on the dash. So, like, The car wasn't found for another week. It was like in a place that's weird. The seat is moved. And there was also like in a 2018 interview, someone from the police department did something with KHQ and an NBC affiliate called like Non-Stop Local. and that something was out of place because there was a squirt soda can in there, and Will wouldn't have drank that, they say, and he usually had two cups in the front at all times, one for cigarette ash and the other for tobacco spit. Like, he was never, like, a third-cup kind of guy. So they just thought that was weird on top of the seat and the mud and all of these things. And then, like,

July 99, representatives from four law enforcement agencies joined together to solve the case, trying to use the mud that was found on this 1984 Pontiac.

Nothing.

Like, nothing from the mud? Like, four different agencies, and you can't find where this mud is or where they were?

Like, no CCTV? Like, what the fuck?

Yeah.

I guess this is, okay, so then three years later in 2002, partial remains were found in rural Latta County by some hunters, and they were confirmed to be Will's. It was a skull and jawbone, and it was in the forest near Beauville. And his partner has theories, like I said, never proven. Like, there was a hitchhiker who hated gay people, but no physical evidence. And there's, like, a truck driver who lived with them in the same, like, trailer park area. And the day Will went missing, he left...

in a refrigerated truck that morning, but the job was like, no, he was in Florida. Like he went to Florida and his truck driving job confirmed it. But he goes, listen, I feel what I feel in my heart, but nothing's been proven. And if you have any information about what happened to Will Hendrick in January, 1999, you can call 208-883-7054.

And that's from KHQ. the news affiliate.

Damn. What does that have to do with the case that we in the episode? Nothing.

I think it's people saying that the car was different. Like, they heard different things.

Like, I don't know. No, it has nothing. That's what I mean.

The wiki has, like, no barrier to anything. And it's like, I have to remember I'm smarter than the internet. And I have to trust my instincts.

Yeah.

But, I mean, I'm glad I researched this, and maybe someone will know what happened that night and call the number.

Right. We're sticking to it.

Okay, now we have the Casey Nicole hoax, another unrelated crime, but I guess it has the word hoax in it.

So this is like May 2001.

Okay, so Casey is this 19-year-old and she dies from complications surrounding leukemia.

She was battling the disease for close to two years.

And the New York Times refers to her online diary as like WeBlog. And it was called Living Colors on a site called collegeclub.com. Like, just these, like, early 2000s words are very interesting to me. And thousands of people were following her diary. She was, like, a sunny blonde who loved poetry, and she alluded to heaven a lot.

A year after starting the blog, she connected with a writer living in Hong Kong, Randall Van Der Wanning. And they connected on a webcam site called CitizenX.com. at early internet, and then she revealed to him that she had leukemia and was in remission, but that it came back in July, wait, July 2020, 2000 probably, 2002, no, 2001, whatever.

It came back in 2000.

And so he offered to set up her wee blog and administer the site for her, and he maintained the site and paid for all the maintenance costs. And Vanderwonings, he said he spoke to her every single day. And he said this to the New York Times. So then in April 2001, she told him that her liver was failing and she was dying, and he posted the news on his site. On May 15th, Swenson, Debbie Swenson, the mother of this woman, Casey, called to report that Casey had died from an aneurysm, and she was crying and, like, inconsolable.

He posted the news, and the online community grieved together. You know, after the death, so many people were crushed by this news, and they had not met her, but.

They started to grow.

Skeptical because Swenson told well-wishers there was no address for sending flowers or cards. She said the cremation and service already happened. And it was just two days after the death. And I guess if they were Jewish, that makes sense. But otherwise, these people were confused. But also, like, why would a family hold a funeral for an online community that wants to, like, fly in from Hong Kong?

Like, I don't know.

Like, so doubt started growing. They're like, why can't we send anything? Why can't we go to anything? What's going on? And then Sandra Mitchell, this Indianapolis woman, was the first to raise doubts publicly. She started searching for a death notice in the paper, found none. And then a group of sleuths, they started sleuthing, and they call themselves the Scooby-Doos.

Love that.

They found out that the account was held by, like, the Swenson woman... And that's, like, Kelly Swenson was her real-life daughter, and she was still active and, like, being logged into the, like, official account that was paying for the account.

I don't really know.

But a few days after the death, Debbie Swenson, 40-year-old homemaker, confessed to inventing it all. She said the life and death of Casey was not real, that she had two teenage kids. She lived in a small town in Kansas, 50 miles northeast of Wichita. in a place called Peabody. May 19th, Van Der Woning got a call from a tearful, you know, Debbie, crying. She said Casey was the real name of an unwanted child of one of her sisters and that she brought up the girl like she was her own and that he was, he had to keep this all a secret. So I don't even know if the fake child or, I really don't know. Then May 20th, after the online community was going crazy, she wrote to him and she like confessed everything and she's like, I

made everything up.

And so he posted it.

Oh, that's why the earlier stuff doesn't make sense.

It wasn't real.

So she didn't realize so many people would read it and become so emotionally invested. She just was like, she told the New York Times, I just, I wanted it to be something positive. And it's like, I'm not sure how a girl dying of leukemia is positive, but like, sure. Van Der Moning said that sometimes he would speak to both Casey and Debbie at the same time. So like, that was pretty wild. And just how much times have changed since 2001 is like, Interesting. So, like, John Helsenstin, a professional web explorer who founded CitizenX, said, this is much more intricate and involved than anything I've been exposed to.

And it's like a girl lying about having cancer. Like, buckle up, bro.

Buckle up to what.

The internet does. It's about to get way worse.

Because this is before, like, Matty Tao was, like, another decade after this, you know?

Manti Tao, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so it's like.

It is crazy that this was the craziest thing that he'd ever seen.

And then that was just the beginning.

And then the Manti Teo case, the first of its kind, a decade later. It's like the internet was slow and then fast in terms of change.

Like, I don't really.

I don't know. I don't know. But....

Just interesting.

But yeah, when you like when you put things out, people are going to figure things out. You know, it's like the end of the movie where everyone's like, oh, fuck this. This this was weird. This was strange. Like Jim McCormick is a registered nurse. And he's like, well, I started growing suspicious when she said she blew a hepatic artery. And I started having strange feelings because like she didn't go to the ICU. And that's weird if like some artery burst. And that's to the Times. And then Stinn, the tech guy, he thought it was strange that he offered, okay, so like he offered her paid work because on the CitizensX site, he's like, hey, like, I'll give you pay. And she goes, no, I'd rather work for free. So like she was doing stuff. He's like,

I'll pay you for it. And she turned down the money. So he did think that was weird. And then inconsistencies and dates and like also similar spelling mistakes between Casey and Swenson were happening. And she said it was like a character she created based on three people she knew who died of cancer. Vanderwanning thinks like she killed her off quick as soon as people wanted to actually visit her.

That's, like, when suddenly she died really quickly.

The Peabody Police Department looked into the case, handed it to the FBI, and they were like, we're not really going to investigate this.

Like, just, like, we don't care.

So Swenson did, however, hire a lawyer because she kept getting super angry phone calls. And like a true psycho, she's quoted in the Times, a lot of people have problems. I know I helped a lot of people in a lot of different ways. So I bet she's scamming people to this day.

Okay.

I'd like to talk to the person who put this in the wiki of this episode. Annoying, but also grateful that we got to cover this episode on the podcast.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

Okay, so this is my own interpretation. So this happened in 2004. It's Audrey Saylor.

Saylor? Saylor.

Audrey.

Chicago Tribune reported about this in 2004. So she's a 20-year-old college student, and she faked her own abduction.

Okay.

And then that set off a desperate search to find her. She was reported missing March 27, 2004, and a TV broadcast showed surveillance footage of her leaving her apartment with no coat or purse and then turned up four days later curled in a fetal position in a marsh and claiming she was held at knife point. There was footage of her then buying a knife, duct tape, rope, and cold medicine at the store. So she pled guilty to misdemeanor charges of obstructing officers. She was sentenced to three years probation. That's a charge you would get. He's going to get that charge.

Yeah. Three years probation, not bad.

And she had to repay the police department $ 9, 000. In court, when she read her statement, according to the Tribune, she said it was her severe depression that caused her to act irrationally.

Wow. Yeah, I think the guy in the episode would owe more than 9K because they were really searching. A lot of cops were involved. But I wonder if this was the same case.

No. So, okay.

Now this one, buckle up. Delamar Vera, Philadelphia. So a mother found her kidnapped daughter six years after she thought to have been killed in a fire.

What?

So this woman's baby was 10 days old and was sleeping in the upstairs front bedroom of a two-story row house in North Philly on December 15th, 1997. Luz Cuevas, the mom, runs into the room to grab the baby, like there's a fire, and could not find the baby.

And like she kept looking for the baby, can't find the baby in the room.

She runs out of the house after smoke overcame her and her face started to get burned. So the remains of the baby were never found. So police just concluded that the baby was incinerated in the flames. Now, I am just a watcher of SVU, and I know that that's not right. Like, there's always something. A tooth would be left. It wasn't an insane fire. It didn't last forever.

The authorities were called right away. What do you mean they're, like, a full human baby just charred in minutes? What the fuck are you talking about? Without a bone in sight? With no dust left.

Nothing.

Like, Philadelphia, the research we do, like, Philly is so bad. Yeah.

In terms of their police work.

So Cuevas never believed her daughter died in the fire.

Cut to... January 2004.

She's at a birthday party for an acquaintance, like acquaintances, and was struck by the resemblance of a six-year-old girl. Like this girl looked like her and her other children. And she's like, fuck. So she told the girl like, oh, you have gum in your hair. And then was able to take strands of this girl's.

Hair for a DNA test.

Love it. Obsessed.

And she was right. So she had it tested.

And so this woman, Carolyn Correa, a North Carolyn Correa, a New Jersey resident, started the fire and kidnapped the baby to pass as her own. She was a distant friend of a cousin of the baby's father from who she was separated. They had only met like a day before the fire. And then, of course, the police can't explain why they declared the baby dead with no evidence of a body at all.

And not listening to the mom who said, my baby was not in her crib. Yeah. Oh, my God.

They say they found bone fragments, but when they were finally tested, they were non-human. Because it was like pieces of crib, probably. When the police came to confront her about the DNA results, she fled and left her other three kids behind. Korea was eventually charged March 2004 and held on a million dollar bail. The first custody agreement was that the moms had to share legal custody, which is insane.

What?

Yeah, it was just the girl. Okay, so like the girl kept her new name. And it's like a gradual process because the girl doesn't speak Spanish and the mom speaks.

Very little English. Oh.

So, but the girl then eventually lived with like the bio mom and then the bio dad had like one day a week of custody. And it's just a gradual custody. Like the mom got her, but this woman was raising her. It's like for the sake of the baby, like you can't just cut someone away from the woman that raised her for six years or something.

I'm not really sure.

Yeah.

How that worked, like the intricacies. But it was just, it had to be gradual. And like, they spoke different languages. But Korea pled guilty in November 96 of arson at a medical office in New Jersey and was sentenced in August 1998 to five years probation and community service.

So like, not her first fire she started.

She lit the office on fire to hide evidence that she had been stealing checks from the business after being fired.

Whoa, okay. So loves a fire.

Yeah, she's a psycho. So she had a history of arson, like, but who, whatever. She surrendered herself once, like, a day after the case, once the Philly police publicized the case. So let's listen to the charges.

Maybe some apply to the episode.

Charged with kidnapping, arson, assault, concealing the whereabouts of a child. and interfering with the custody of a child. So that's more like the woman, you know, the woman driving up. According to Fox News, in 2005, she was sentenced to nine to 30 years in prison. Could not get more information on what the sentence ended up being, if she's still, she could still be in prison or released, honestly.

Yeah.

Um, the biological parents also sued the city officials in the handling of their baby's disappearance, and I hope they made a lot of money. And then there's a Lifetime movie called Little Girl Lost, the Delamar Vera story.

Oh, my God. Poor little Delamar.

Crazy.

So crazy. That is so nuts, too. Like, at six, like, she was taken at 10 days old. Like, this crazy lady is the only mom she's ever known.

Yes, but also, this is so connected to the episode we just did.

Yeah.

So, pretty proud of myself.

Sealing a child to replace a child is a common theme in SVU. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They definitely got it from somewhere. Awesome.

So, yeah, those are the cases.

We don't have a guest, so we're just going to start talking about how fucking psycho it is.

To take a kid that's not yours. Let's get right in. All right, so no guests today, so we can just dive right into our post-mortem. I mean, this episode is, I love this episode. I love, I like the guy like luring Stabler. I like the mystery of it all. I love that in the end, there really was no victim. Nobody, I know it was like a hoax. I don't encourage hoaxes, but I do like that the girl was not being you know, assaulted live on a live stream. But this is very relevant too. It's like every episode we do now, we're like, wow, it's so crazy the timing, but it's like, no, it's just the same things keep happening. Like, it's crazy that this episode is literally about at a college campus, a bunch of people seeing something go on and no

one calls the cops because they all think someone else is going to. It's a little bit different because it's not fraternity, like, sort of protection of each other. I think because there's girls and guys seeing this video and this live stream and they're all like, someone else is calling, right? Like they all kind of do that. But like, yeah, it's just, it's crazy. Everything at SVU repeats itself.

Well, that's another thing going up to what we were talking about in the intro and like what you're saying now. This is another thing I saw online, not an original thought of mine, but it's this thing of like, this isn't about this. It just like finally reminded me. But like, you know, it happens in SVU a lot where it's like you said that you were raped, but then you texted him or then you went to lunch with him or you went to class. And this girl was talking about how it's because women are used to getting their boundaries pushed, dealing with pain, dealing with stuff, and questioning your own psyche if stuff's happening or not, and then realizing it's kind of fucked. Where it's like we're kind

of used to— that' s why men stand out. Like, they're not as used to having their boundaries pushed. Like, if someone touches you and you're like— I' ve had to— and I've talked about this on the pod where— And this is actually, this isn't even a, like, I've had to ask one server at one of the comedy clubs not to kiss me on my cheek. Now, I would say 20 times. And I have gotten aggressive about it and it does not stop.

And it's just like, are you fucking kidding me? And it's just like, I don't know, we're used to, or like if someone touches her lower back or this, you're like, well, I don't want to make a big stink about it. Or like, wait, was it me? And then we're a part of the culture. So I'm sure this girl was probably like, did I want that? Did I say something? Like, you know, and then you're like, wait, no, fuck. This is something fucked. Like, and Benson always talks about it. Like, it takes time. But like, it's used against victims.

Yeah.

That you didn't do something the next day or you came forward a year later or something like that. And it's just like, how do we, how do we get society or culture at large to understand like the brain or your reactions to stuff? It's like, I don't, I don't understand why no one understands rape. Like I don't get it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like that, just because you went to someone's room to hang out or to have sex, suddenly everything that happens, you wanted. And because you went to class the next day, nothing wrong happened. Like, I don't, the lack of empathy, like what? It's just like, it's shocking. But yeah, women are just like, were you still, oh, you get your period? Well, go to school, bitch.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about like the Emma Sulkowicz, the girl from Columbia. who, like, she messaged the guy back the next day or something. Everyone's like, there's the proof that it didn't happen. And it's like, what? Women are so used to, like, managing men's emotions so that things don't get violent or there's no retaliation or, like, you know, you don't want, like, that, you know, there's a politeness that is, a lot of times, sadly, prevents people from just, whatever, going, wait, and then, like, whose video did I see where a girl was like, I saw this girl do a video where she was like, I was sexually assaulted and I went to the hospital and I did a rape kit. And then I got a bill from the hospital for like $ 2, 000. So when

people ask like, why don't people report? It's like, I was charged $ 2, 000 for my rape kit, my rape exam. And then like people were saying that in certain, like in most states, I think those are actually not supposed to be charged, but they figure out ways to like bill them in ways that they do. But still- I was like, yeah, just the trauma of being like, you're like, you're hugely traumatized.

And then you get a bill.

For something that $ 2, 000 was like my spending money for an entire semester that I would earn over the summer.

Do you know what I mean?

Like that would have like panicked me, you know?

So we don't make anything easy in terms of reporting. No, we make it so hard. They're blaming her.

And it's like, yeah, because now the lawyers are also spinning like, she just wants money and a settlement. And it's like, well, yeah, you ruined her life.

Why not? She just wants money.

She dropped out of an Ivy League college that she probably worked her ass off to get into because it would just be easier to go through a trial.

Like, what are you talking about?

Yeah, it's like none of the counterpoints even make sense. But also, why are you fighting so hard to have a counterpoint? Like, why is rape not seen more seriously than like the men's reputation?

It's just like, it's really.

I truly think it's because I think a lot of men are just like, they feel like the experience of being sexually assaulted is like, like not having a good time having sex. like having like an unenjoyable sexual experience. That's like what I think they equate it to. And like, why should anyone go to jail for that? They don't look at it as like a full violation of someone's like humanity, someone's rights, like a power play, like what it actually is.

And I don't believe in. You know, I think that's like what... Yeah, the regret.

You know?

Yeah, like you just regretted a thing.

There's an empathy missing in many men, not all, but many men, about something that you haven't experienced. It's like, did you see Milo Yiannopoulos or whatever?

Like he.

it was this right wing provocateur who would just like, probably didn't care what happened to anyone. And then he got detained by ICE and he talked about how traumatic it was, how they hurt his body. And like, he can't sleep at night now. And it's like, oh, now, now that it's happened to you, you understand, right? Like, and, but before that he was like, could probably couldn't give a shit what happened to anybody, you know? So it's like, it's like, yeah, they don't, unless something happens to them or they don't, you know, give a shit.

But I, again, we can't, yeah, we're not wishing sexual.

Assault on anyone, but I wish that they could take a moment to understand what is actually happening there. Um, but this episode, if we're going to get into the post-mortem of it all, I mean, it's crazy. Like it's to me, it's, it was a crazy way to get attention to a cold case and, But it is interesting to me how in a real world, like, you can go back to cold cases and, yeah, one inconsistency between what this one woman said.

But, like, nobody checked on the crazy lady whose son had died.

Like, we.

Nobody knows she.

Moved a burrow away with a new kid suddenly.

But that's another bias thing. Like, oh, she's just an old lady. Like, she didn't do it. You know what I mean? Like, that's not what they assumed. But it does seem like pretty lazy police work.

Once again, once again, the police are dropping a ball that perhaps they were never carrying to begin with.

But the real life case, too, that there was a fire with no bones and they're like, ah, baby incinerated.

And it's like, what?

Oh, yeah, that's right.

And I'm thinking about Yaga now. There's a lot of bones in Yaga. She's a bone professor.

A bone collector? Bone professor. I know, but. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wait, like a bone professor?

Like she's like a professor? Like that's her job?

Osteo. Yeah, yeah.

She's a professor in bones.

Isn't that what Bones was about? Bones on Fox? No, I've never watched Bones. I think Bones on Fox was about Emily Deschanel's character, like, studies the bones. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, this character.

Anyway, I'm glad they found out that little Tommy was alive.

I'm sorry, that's not his name. What was his name? The little boy?

I forgot what the little brother's name was. But the big brother's going to prison, right?

I mean, for how long? For, like, probably not very long. It's like a hoax.

You know, I don't know what you get for that. I would say this is one of the more insane episodes of... It is.

It is.

But I'm always glad when acting students get to practice in the real world, you know?

Yes. And computer students get to do something. Like, they're not just making an app. They're actually, like, infiltrating the school's livestream system and... fucking with the cops and sending encrypted messages to police officers that no one can trace.

That's very cool.

Yeah. It also taught me a lot, or maybe a little, about what's going on with burner phones. Are they traceable or not? You know, we had two different....

Versions of that truth.

I forget that my friends have, some of my friends have my location and I got a text from someone being like, so I see her in Midtown, what are you doing?

And I go, excuse me? But I had given her my location.

And I know the youth, because someone one time was like, you deserve people knowing your location. I go, oh, I guess like societally we've changed how we feel about location.

Only two people have it for me.

I think if I lived in New York, I would want people to have my location because there's always that like, I've got two hours to kill thing.

Oh, you're like kind of nearby. I'll meet you, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I don't know.

But, I just got my mom's location. I was like, give me your phone. I need to know your location. Like you're getting to the age where like, I absolutely have to know where you are because not that it helps. The other day she was like near LaGuardia. I go, what are you doing at LaGuardia? No response for three days. So, you know, who knows? The answer was picking up my aunt, not actually taking a trip that I didn't know about.

All right. Should we get into our what would sister Peg do for this week?

Because there are no more lockers at airports, right? There used to be lockers, but now there's not.

I don't know.

I bet post 9-11, but like, I feel like there used to be lockers.

So that you could like drop something off? Doesn't that seem like it would only be for like drug trafficking? I don't know.

Most airports do not.

Oh, I think it's also for like, if you have like a nine hour layover, you could like leave your luggage and like go into a city. But most US airports do not have luggage lockers anymore due to post 9-11 security. But they, yeah, they did. That was like a part of the thing. Yeah, back in the day. Back in the day. But yeah, my mom wasn't at LaGuardia checking out her locker. That would be funny. Okay.

This week's What Would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment. We direct you to an organization, a documentary, an article, something to give you more info about what was in today's episode.

And I wanted to point you to the Cold Case Foundation.

We've recommended them before, but it's been like 200 episodes since we did that.

So just refreshing your memory.

Their mission is to be, quote, the ultimate resource for homicides, missing persons, unidentified remains, and rape, sexual assaults with serial characteristics. So this organization provides funding, training, and consulting and connects law enforcement agencies and victims with relevant resources. For more information or to submit a cold case, head over to coldcasefoundation.org.

They never charge law enforcement victims or victims' families for their work. So coldcasefoundation.org, that will be in our show notes linked and will also be in a story that gets posted the day this episode is released. And all of our WWSPD stories are saved in a highlight of the same name, WWSPD.

Hell yeah.

And next week, we will be doing Personal Fouls, season 13, episode 2.

So get with that. Thanks for listening to our podcast. Yeah, thank you to all the Tommies out there. We will see you next week. Bye.

That's Messed Up is an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at thatsmesseduppod at gmail.com. Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at thatsmesseduppod and follow us personally at Cara Clank and at Glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer, Casey O'Brien, and our associate producer, Christina Chamberlain.

And to our mixer, John Bradley, and our guest booker, Patrick Kottner.

And to Henry Kapurski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgareff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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