Personal Fouls w/ Dan Lauria

Of the Law & Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies these episodes are based on.

These are our stories. Dun dun!

Yay, that's Messed Up, an SVU podcast. Another episode coming to you at a normal speed.

I'm Lisa Traeger. And I'm Cara Clank.

And every week on this pod, it's SVU recaps. It's deep dives into true crimes. It's interviews with fascinating people. And.

It's chatting about, I don't know, the world at large, whatever we feel. Whatever we feel.

Whatever we freaking feel. What's new?

Well, and we are doing live shows in D.C. and in New York, January 24th and 26th. So if you'd like to do that.

Yeah, come see us.

We recap an episode live that's not necessarily, doesn't really have a true crime associated. We try to pick some of the fun or campier ones. We play some games. It's a good time. There's PowerPoint involved. Please come out. Get a ticket.

You can go to That's Messed Up Live.com.

Some of you have Googled our tour dates before and ended up on scam accounts, and I don't want that to happen to any of you. So go to That's Messed Up Live.com. That takes you right to the actual ticket links.

Speaking of live shows, so I was in Philly, and I was meeting people after the show, and there was a woman, and she made a shirt with a quote that I guess I say.

all the time.

And I have no recollection of ever saying this. And I've brought it up to some friends. They go, you say it all the time. I put a poll on Instagram. I asked you guys, and I guess I say it constantly.

So shout out to this woman.

And it says, I just don't.

Know what to tell you. Lisa Trinker. She was like, I guess I say that a lot.

I was like, every time we talk, I would say, I don't know what to tell you.

Like just. Um, that's your phrase.

She said it's like what I say after I say something that's fucked up.

And it's like, well, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. Or it's like, I tend to ask a lot of like follow-up questions. And sometimes I think you're like, I don't have any more information. This is what I know. And like, I don't know what else to tell you, you know?

And it's true.

Yeah.

I don't know.

And I didn't really know I did that. Because I would tell you everything I have. Like, that's the thing. Yes.

When people ask me for a follow-up, I go, you don't think I would tell you this?

You don't think I've spilled every single bit of information? I would have added to it immediately. Oh, your makeup looks really good today, by the way. You were just on camera for something?

I was.

And you know what?

I used a different brush for my crease than I normally do. And my coffee shop girl, she.

Complimented it too.

And it's the same thing I do with the same, everything is the same except this one brush. So like, I think I'm going to start using this other brush. I've been using whatever. I've had this Armani brush for a really long time. And then today, I don't know what made me grab my Mac brush, but now that's two compliments.

Well, here we go.

Because it's the same colors.

I don't know what the crease means. Your eyes?

Yeah, like right here, you know, I have one color here, and then in the crease, I have this darker color. Got it.

That's, yeah.

But there's like a nice glow on the cheeks, too. But that's my everyday. That's my everyday.

That's the usual. Yeah, we'll see.

Oh, God, you know, I'm like, I have a lot of blowout events this week, and I'm just trying to balance all the blowouts and make each last as long as I can, too.

It's really, it's difficult. You gotta keep those blowouts fresh, baby.

Yeah. I know.

And also go White Sox. It's been amazing. It's so exciting.

What's happening?

We have a game today.

So, basically, the last three years, they've been, like, the worst team in baseball history. And they've lost over 100 games per season the last three seasons.

Yikes.

Now, they're in a 1-8 chance for the World Series. I mean, so... I only pay attention to my team. Like, I don't know everything. So, basically, right now, if they win today as we're talking... It's October 7th. So that means they have, and then with the Astros, so they'll have to beat Cleveland. So hopefully they'll beat Cleveland today and then it's done. And then right now the Yankees and Tampa Bay are playing. And then whoever beats, whoever wins there, then the Sox will play them. And then I think that means the World Series, unless there's one more round.

I don't remember. Okay. I love an underdog story.

Yeah, exactly.

That's fun.

Yeah.

And so, and it's just a young, fun team. They're getting wasted. They're doing slip and slides on tables. They asked one guy, they're like, oh my God, did you like, how did you feel when Murakami like hit that homer? He goes, oh, I missed it. I was having an ice cream cone in the cage.

And it's like.

They're just kind of silly and drinking and young and just having an amazing time.

And they've really electrified the city.

I hate that we're in the time machine because I'm seeing Jacob Tierney speak on Sunday. I'm going to the Heated Rivalry parody musical on Saturday. I'm doing a Robin Williams panel on Thursday. And then tonight I'm going to a VIP party at the Whitney for Roy Lichtenstein.

Whoa. And no one will hear about it for a week. Sorry, guys. Blowouts.

Blowouts are coming, but you're not going to get the deets till after. But I did start reading a new book called The Vegetarian.

And I can't even like, you know, because I'm trying to read this new Emma Klein, but it's about two men. It's like really hard. She's obviously good. But this one, I'm like back to like, I don't want to do anything but read. But and I feel extra smart because it won the Nobel Prize and the International Booker Prize Award.

So I feel kind of like a cool girl reading it as well. So I'm like 50 pages in. And it's Korean, so it's translated. So I can't even imagine how good it is.

And Korean. Dang, yeah.

I know.

Oh my gosh. But I can't wait. I'm thinking about eating meat again. Wait, tell us more.

I just don't, I just am having a hard time finding all my protein.

Like, I just, I don't know.

I was already thinking about stopping, about starting eating meat like at my 20th anniversary of being a vegetarian. Like, okay, you put it in 20 years, like you can start dabbling in meat again, but that's, next November. That's, like, November of 27.

But I'm like, I don't know if I can.

Wait, like, another year. You're craving it. My hair's, like, falling out. I just feel like I really need to, like, get back into the mix. I'm, like, not getting enough protein. I'm gonna get a blood panel done this week and see what's going on.

Do a panel. I mean, I don't know. Get a protein bar. Like, do you want to eat the meat? What are your meat even... opinions or likes or dislikes. Like, where are you going with this?

When I ate meat, I would eat like a hamburger, like whatever, every once in a while, like a steak every once in a while.

Chicken and turkey were like my main things, right? And you like bacon, I feel. And bacon.

Oh, yeah.

Bacon, absolutely.

Number one.

Number one. And I have to make it for my kids now. They both eat it now. Oh, Rosie eats it too now. Yes.

She's on bacon now.

She started eating meat over the summer because she's basically anemic. And I was like, it's this or these nasty iron drops that are going to give you constipation. So I am now like, okay, now everybody's eating more meat except for me. And like, I'm a little bit nervous about actually putting it in my mouth. But then I think I'll be fine. I just, like, haven't— You know what you should do?

What?

You should order, like, a meat dish, but then also have, like, your fake meat of that thing, and then bite the fake meat, and then bite the real, realize how much better it is, and then I think you'll— Well.

You know how, like, I used to get, like, Impossible Whoppers?

They still exist, but certain Burger Kings are phasing them out because I guess people aren't fucking eating them, including the one that's close to me.

So I'm like, great.

Now even my fast food guilty pleasure, I can't even do anymore because they got rid of the Impossible at my Burger King.

So I'm like, I don't know. Oh my God.

I watched a clip of your friends. It was Elliot Glazer and.

Allen.

And H.

Allen.

And they're talking McDonald's and Elliot just like doesn't go, which he hasn't had it in like 30 years. And so he's like, I don't know, a grilled chicken wrap. They're like, well, they don't have it.

And it's like, they do.

But then he's like, they brought up the salad shaker. Like he truly didn't know what a McNugget was. Like it was just really cracking me up.

Like talking to someone who just woke out of a coma. Yeah, kind of.

But I miss the salad shakers because I was a kid during that. So I would never have ordered that. But thinking of me as an adult now, fuck, I'd love a salad shaker. Casey is grimacing.

It's like a cup of lettuce that you shake up with some dressing. Yeah, I just think I'd like the shape.

I do like a garden salad from like a diner with like shredded cheese. Like I like a trashy salad with croutons and ranch.

Uh-huh. Like iceberg, like white iceberg lettuce. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.

I think I'm excited. I'm excited for your journey into me. And at the end of the day, you can go back and forth. Like, nothing actually matters. Like, if you decide you don't want it or you do, you know.

I don't think I'm going to be, like, eating it every single day. But, like, I just think I need to introduce some more of it into my life because.

Yeah, I'm excited. Have a Reuben. Have a hot dog, you know.

The amount of protein these doctors are telling me I need to be getting into my body.

They're telling me 100... grams.

I drink this little yogurt shake in the morning that's 20 and then I eat a protein bar that's 10. The other 70, I'm scrambling, you know?

Like, it's hard. It's really hard.

I have not paid attention or looked at anything in any way, but people really seem to be stuffing the protein in.

People are super obsessed with protein. I do think there's like an over-obsession with protein as well.

Like, I don't know if it has to be in the popcorn, but also I'm waiting for the fiber trend, which I thought would have hit by now, but we're still on the protein train.

It's like, it's tough. I think fiber is probably secretly more important, but.

Yeah, I don't know if anybody has made the... like long time journey back to me.

Let me know.

I'm so excited for you to be able to have ramen, like real ramen.

A friend of ours that has been a vegetarian for as long as me, she's back on me. Like people, like I was talking to her, I think I'm thinking about getting back on me.

And she goes, I'm back on. I was like, Oh my God, I'm the last one. Um, but no. And I wonder if you'll eat fit, like, I do eat fish.

But I just don't like make it at home a lot because salmon is so easy to make, I think.

Yeah.

I don't love salmon. I think I need to keep giving salmon another try. I need to, because that is, but even my friend who I was talking to, who's also trying to get all this protein, she was like.

That's like 101.

Grams is like, it's like I'm eating five salmon fillets a day.

She's like, I can't do that.

Well, I mean, I could tell you some sick ideas. So I was talking to someone that's on Broadway and she makes like protein shakes, but just pours in egg white.

And then obviously we have a friend who eats chicken.

Yeah, but that's not a normal suggestion that would be enjoyable.

She makes like, you know, chocolate banana.

like peanut butter, like all the normal stuff, but then pours in the egg whites that come in the carton.

But I bet once that's blended up, you don't even taste.

It, right?

And that is my point. If you're chasing down protein.

Yeah, you're right.

That's a good idea. I just, I mean, I don't do dish. That's not a part of the life I want to live.

Yeah, yeah.

To me, having to clean a blender every day, I don't know. I'd rather miss a pinky. I'd rather not have a pinky.

Clean it.

Cleaning a blender is actually so annoying.

But if you're like chasing it down, you could, yeah, blend these egg whites into a smoothie. It's like, you know. I bet you could just drink the egg whites raw out of the bag. Maybe that's salmonella.

I don't know if I could do that.

There's a place around me that's popular, 787 Coffee. There's a few locations, so no one will know. But- the coffee comes in a bag. And so it looks like people are just like drinking out of an IV bag. And obviously like I got an iced tea, but it's too expensive. It's like $ 8 for a bag.

It's iced coffee, I'm assuming, right? It's not like hot coffee in a bag. What's the appeal of like having a bag of coffee? I think it's like a cultural thing. I think it's like Brazilian or Puerto Rican. Like it's something that's like Cuban maybe. Sorry if this is insulting. Like, I think it's like a cultural thing.

To have it in a bag.

It just feels weird when you're like, you have to like put your coffee down and you're just like slapping a bag of coffee onto a table.

It's like a flat bod. Okay, let's see. Puerto Rican. I was right. Farm to cup. But it's not a cup. It is a bag. So I don't know why their little slogan is farm to cup when it's clearly.

In a bag.

Farm to cup.

Here at Google, 787 Coffee, it's the third image in Google Images. That's what I saw a girl in this morning drinking. And it does look silly. I got an iced tea there once.

Okay, wait. I'm just doing 787 Coffee?

Yeah.

Oh, I see the bag. Yeah, it looks, I'm sorry, that looks like an IV bag of blood. Yeah, but they're drinking it. Except it's brown. I mean, it's like a Capri Sun of coffee, I guess. It's kind of like a Capri Sun of coffee.

It has like that little foldable bottom so that it can stand up, I guess.

Yeah, and I love Capri Suns, so I don't know why I'm being such a judgmental whore with these. Also, where's our alcoholic Capri Suns? Like stop with the white claws. Give us, oh my God.

So I don't know if you grew up with- That's a great idea. Someone just DM me.

So I don't know if you know Celeste Pizza, if you were this kind of trash growing up.

Oh yes, yes. I know of it. I know of it.

Yes.

They were like.

10 for $ 10. So my family enjoyed it. I was also home alone a lot. They were easy to make.

I love them.

And my bodega wildly has them. So like once in a nostalgic blue moon, I get them. After 57 years, they are closing up shop.

This is the last year. Oh, it's the end of the road, Celeste.

I might buy it out. I might buy them out. My bodega, I might just buy it out and keep them in the freezer.

They're not good.

I want to reiterate, they are not good, but they do something to me that feels good.

Wait, I don't know why that just reminded me of what I did this past weekend. So we took the kids to, it's been a massive heat wave in LA. It's been in the high nineties, low hundreds. It's like insane.

Like I'm just, I, this type, I don't mind the heat.

I always say that. I don't like, I'm not a person that like hates the heat, but like. I am an East Coaster, and when I feel October in my veins, it's not what's happening to me in LA.

Cara, I just Googled Celeste Pizza minus AI just to see if I could buy some merch off the site or something. But then, so one of the Googles is like Reddit, and then it says, Celeste Pizza was discontinued.

Infuriating. Spelled wrong. It just really made me laugh. Get in that Reddit thread right now.

So, but to be so mad that you spell infuriated. And it is, I don't think it's an easy word to spell, but it's just making me laugh. Someone just, another soldier has fallen.

Do you know what I used to make for like myself, my family and for kids I babysat for was Boba Lee.

Do you remember Boba Lee? Yeah, of course.

Yeah, it was like a crust and then you had to do your own sauce and like make your own pizza.

We weren't doing that because I was making it in the microwave because my family wasn't home.

Like, we would never- Yeah, you don't want your fucking with the oven. Yeah.

But it's kind of like, there was a brick and mortar for a while where you buy the uncooked pizza and cook it at home.

I go, what is the point of this? What is the point of this? It wasn't good either. I like, I can still actually like taste it when I talk about it and it's like, ugh. Um- But okay, so last weekend, it's boiling hot, but my son has a birthday party.

So we all go to this birthday party. I hope it was at a pool.

No, it's at a park. And they move it to 10 a.m. because they're like, we know it's hot as hell. Just come from 10 to 12 and then we'll get the hell out of there. And like an hour in, Oscar's like, I don't feel good.

I don't feel good.

So like we all go home. He lasts all the way till we get home. As soon as we walk in the house, throws up all over the floor.

The hardwood. I got to give it to him. Thank you, Oscar.

Just the hardwood. Like it did not get on the carpet. So then Rosie has plans. We all have plans to go swimming later. He can't go now. So Rosie goes. I stay home with him. We baked a cake, me and Oscar, because I knew I had to, like, convince him to stay home with me because... even though it's like, you can't just be like, hey, you puked everywhere.

You can't go swimming.

And so we did one of these yellow cake box mix hacks from Instagram.

Oh, yeah.

I've been watching those on the internet.

Yeah.

So I've been seeing these. I was like, it's time. I'm going to do one of these. So we go to the grocery store. Oscar's like in his pajamas holding it because of course he felt immediately fine like an hour after he threw up.

He was like, I'm fine. I can go swimming. And I'm like, you actually can't.

So We go, we get like, it's like instead of three eggs, you do four eggs. Instead of oil, you do butter. Instead of water, you do milk. It's pretty delicious. I got to say.

Was it a lot better? And how did you pick which hack you were going to do?

I just like kind of looked it up and it's like, it is this man who does the hack and then everybody is like copying his hack and trying it.

He's like a black dude, right? He's like a black guy. And he's fun.

Oscar watched the video with me and it was not the man's face, but it was his voice over a woman doing it. And he goes, I really like the way this guy talks. Yeah.

I like him a lot.

Yeah.

Cause he's like, you're not going to do that. You're going to do this. Okay. Listen to me like blah, blah, blah.

And so, yeah, I did it just how he said, except I made, I didn't do the same size cause I didn't have the same pan as him.

So I made two nine inch rounds and did like a double cake. It was delicious. We still have some left.

Was it a lot better? I think so because it was really moist. It wasn't super dry. Sorry to use that word. I know people hate it. It wasn't like dry. And I think also because of the butter, it's got like a little tang of salt to it, which I think.

Is good with sweet, you know?

Yeah.

So I recommend it. Yellow cake box cake hack. If you look it up on Instagram, you'll find a thousand videos that do it. Delicious.

Covered it in sprinkles. Oscar's zero interested in having any of it. He had one piece and now he doesn't want any more. He doesn't really like sweets, actually. It's really hilarious. He'll beg for candy and then he doesn't really like it.

That's so weird.

He likes like some candy, but like he will always have like two pieces.

And then be like, I'm good. I don't know.

But at a restaurant, if he finds the salt shaker, he will pick it up and shove it and start pouring salt into his mouth. I have to like guard the salt shakers at restaurants. So I think he's like a salt boy. Yeah, I never believe those people. I also don't get the either or. It doesn't have to be.

I obviously love both.

If for my life I had to pick one, I would pick savory so I could have food, you know?

Mm-hmm. But like... it's tough.

Like, I do get more excited at going out to a restaurant of, like, oh, what pasta am I going to eat? Like, what sort of salty thing am I going to eat versus, like, what's on the dessert menu? Like, I almost barely ever do dessert. I like sweets, though. But anyway, fun little hack.

Um.

Anything else we need to cover before we get started? I feel like we have a jam-packed episode today.

Oh, and I'm doing my first book club on Monday for yoga.

Oh.

But none of us have the Zoom that's more than 40 minutes, so someone's going to ask their job to make.

A link for us.

You can use mine. You know I use ours for... Like I bought professional for TMU.

So if you want my login, I can give it to you. You'll just have to change the name so it doesn't say Cara Clank.

Well, no, we'll see if this girl, because she works in radio. I do know her coworker, Chris. So I think it would be funny if he has to make our link. But I've never, I've never done one. I mean, we read it. We read Yesteryear. I guess that was my first official.

I was just talking to our friend Lizzie Cooperman about Yesteryear yesterday.

She also loved it. And I was like, yeah, because it's really good. It is really good. And I don't know. I'm being selfish because it's like, well, I like it.

So I don't believe that other people don't. It's fine if other people don't. But like the criticism I see of it, I hate and don't respect.

You know what I mean?

That's like what bothers me. It's like kind of it's like the people that hate the word moist. I'm like, you're looking for a personality and you found one and it's annoying.

How about that? You know what I mean? I just like don't. Understand when your basis is just you don't like a main character.

They made it seem like it's this and it's actually like this.

And it's like, that's the fucking point of the book, you dumb bitch.

I don't know.

Okay, whatever. Let's get started.

We've got a great episode coming at you.

All right. We're doing personal fouls.

So I like that. I, for some reason, thought we had done this. Just the name of it. Because I think I'm thinking of a different one.

I know.

I'm sure there's another foul in there. Because, but also it is funny when the episode names are just a word or a couple words. Because then in Google, I forget sometimes to put SVU at the end. So I just like Googled personal fouls. And it described to me what that is. Yeah, wait, what is it? I was about to Google it. Oh, it's a basketball thing. So it's like, it's if you foul someone, it's a, you know, it's a personal foul.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Yeah, and then technical foul or a flagrant foul is, you know, you're being extra aggressive. Okay.

You know, it's different. All right. I love— this is a double entendre.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, so— oh, my God. In my notes, I wrote okay with, like, a bunch of whys. So— The Wonder Years dad is in this, exciting. Sports banquet vibes, photo montage. He's with Arnold Schwarzenegger. He's with who I think is Jesse Ventura, who, was he in Congress too?

Is he Minnesota? Minnesota. Is he just a wrestler? No, he was the governor. He was the governor.

Jesse Ventura's cool. He's been on the right side of history. He's pretty left-leaning.

He's good.

Wait, I sort of love that for Jesse Ventura.

I always just thought he was a whack job, so I kind of assumed he was right-wing.

Yeah, he famously, I think he got fired from the WWE because Hulk Hogan snitched on him to Vince McMahon about unionizing.

Oh, he's a, okay.

Yeah, Hulk Hogan was not a good guy. I just remember Adomian used to do this like great Jesse Ventura character.

And I guess, but I guess he does Bernie.

So I don't know why I just immediately thought that he was like some kind of, yeah, I didn't know Jesse Ventura's politics, but that makes total sense.

Minnesota's always like got a liberal person. Cool all. A little twist.

Yeah, Manny Pacquiao, Filipino hero, boxing. I think he hates gays, but that happens. And then there's Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh, basketball players. And then there's a man who is from Mortal Kombat 2, one of my favorite films. So that was really exciting. But he was also in Just Like That. And then he's in 57 episodes of the new edition of Law & Order.

So that's exciting. Supergirl. His name is McCard Brooks.

Oh, yeah.

McCard Brooks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I know this guy from stuff.

Yeah.

So for Mortal Kombat, I'm assuming. Oh, no, that's not. That is cinema I have not ingested yet. But yes, I do know that it is a fave.

So now we see we're at the Metro Basketball Hall of Fame. And this seems like an AAU style kind of situation. But like then they play outside, whatever. It's like travel basketball vibes. And then the so Chris Bosh and Carmelo Anthony, just in case you don't know, are actual NBA players. So the NBA guys are talking about this fake coach's person. He's like, he's made more millionaires than Harvard Business School. And this show is so detail-oriented.

It gets the amount of laughs a banquet dinner like this would get.

You know what I mean? It's such a cheesy joke.

The Mortal Kombat guy is the most famous of the NBA players and people. But he can't be there. So he sent a gold key with his initials. And his name is Prince Anthony.

Okay.

Which is crazy. And I actually don't know if it's Prince Anthony. I'll get to it later. I remembered it later. So then Prince is his first name in this. And then Carmelo says, I was a stray dog and you saved me. And then Coach Ray Masters, and he's standing up to the podium to talk.

And then we get an applause.

And then we get a flannel, like a white guy with a flannel, rough and tumble looking man.

He comes in booing. Boo! As everyone's clapping. You should be in jail, just in case you didn't know what a boo was. Okay.

And then you should be in jail, not the Hall of Fame. Security goes to get him. He screams, you're scum. You piece of shit. You should be ashamed for what you've done. And then the coach makes a joke. Ah, looks like I didn't give him enough playing time. Now that's when you know someone's guilty. You know what I mean? Like, you're not like, oh, God, what happened? Like, is he okay?

Yeah.

You know, like, if you really didn't do anything, you'd be like, what the fuck? But to make a little joke, you're guilty.

Guilty.

One of my favorite lines of all time from the episode Sick.

Lederhosen, guilty. The Michael Jackson episode? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's like a stabler line, which I love. So.

And then... So the flannels hold out by security, but he... raggles himself free, and he goes, you know what you did. Then he's fully dragged out. Chris Bosch and his coach share a look. We get Ponytail Benson in a blue button-down, and she enters Cragen's office a little annoyed.

We're hiring another detective. Ugh.

Okay, I'm already training one guy. What is this, a daycare center with all these rookies? And Cragen goes, well, Elliot's not coming back, so get over it, Liv. You want to work here, you're going to have to start working with some other detectives.

Let him go.

And so that's the thing. He's ignored everyone in the office. And then she has to go pack up his desk. This motherfucker didn't even pack up his desk. He didn't even take his shit. She probably drove it out to Queens and.

Left it on his doorstep, too.

Yeah.

Oh, my God. So, yeah, he goes, we can't keep it like a shrine. So then it's a slow pan to the desk. Finn watches her pack Stabler's stuff. And there's a framed photo she's holding, and it's him and a baby. And Finn says, we got something. Hands her a paper. She goes, this is a disorderly. Why is this here in sex crimes? And basically, you know, this kid, this guy is saying the kid basketball coach molested him when he was a kid. So they go talk to the guy in the cell that they're holding him, but he's fully shaking on the ground, ODing. He's in the cage, like, tweaking.

It doesn't look good. Benson looks worried. Finn screams, call a bus. We go into the credits. An electric credit, you know, blend in. So now we're having a bouncy curl hair walk. So it's like she had a ponytail and then she went, I got to step it up and like fully went to dry bar. And then the guy is stable.

She has a package.

And then Finn will go get a statement. And Craig walks in with Amaro. Benson looks pissed. And it's like he's so hot. Like even if you wanted to be pissed, wouldn't you be like, all right, what's this guy up to? So, and then he's second grade. So then Rollins goes, whoa, you must have caught some big fish. And he, you know, he's funny. He goes, no, no, just kissed a lot of ass. Creighton goes, he's being humble. Two years undercover narcotics.

He took down MS-13. Benson's like, okay, Serpico. Well, this is different. And not everyone has the stomach for it. And then everyone is awkward. Like no one's, no one likes her attitude.

But people call him, that's the first Serpico. I feel like people call him Serpico. People keep calling him Serpico the whole time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he gets called a lot more times. But, yeah, no one, like, wants to bully him. This kind of feels to me when Miranda tries to shit on Steve when the first meeting, you know, with the drinks, and she makes that joke, and then the other girls are like, yeah, could we give this guy a shot?

Like, we like him.

And Rollins is like, I'm about to fuck this guy.

Like, back off, bitch.

So, Kragan says they're all going to switch around partners for a little bit, sends him off with Finn and goes, but you better shave your beard and clean up, okay? Finn is like, I got you a guy. So, boom, beard is gone by the afternoon. They go to the barbershop before they go to talk to the Vic. They enter the hospital together. Amara wants to gossip about Stabler.

Finn says Stabler was a good cop and they were together for 12 years, a decade longer than my marriage. Then they see the like security guard cop chair empty with a little magazine.

They enter the room. Cuffs are just to the bed without a man.

The officer runs back in and Finn's pissed and was like, what the fuck?

And he's like, I just went to pee. They're like, how long was your piss?

How how loose were these cuffs and then finn has no patience goes go to your superior you're on suspension bitch tell him you lost my prisoner so maro recognizes the name and is like whoa whoa whoa i know this kid like he's listed as homeless that's crazy he's a legend i used to watch him play ball downtown so they go to the court um he's there alone looking like shit bouncing a ball They go butter him up.

They're friendly. Amaro is talking on a put on accent to like, you know, communicate with this New Yorker. And so he sighs. He looks around and he goes, I was high.

Don't worry. I'm talking crazy. Amaro goes, so you lied. He goes, well, no.

Finn says he's around kids all the fucking time. Like if he did something to you, you could tell us, get this off your chest. Let's get things going. So now they're sitting on a bench to chat. He started playing with him at nine. And it was like, you know, they did a lot, like I said, travel basketball. That's like what this is kind of based on, whichever like parents are upset about now. I don't know if that's hit your mom groups yet about the discussion of travel ball and league sports and all of this stuff.

Everything I'm hearing from people is like, don't let your kids do travel sports.

Yeah, I get it all. But like, I think it's just probably become like more. Money hungry with the times.

It is.

It's just like so much money and trips and it's like.

But I did it, but I think it was a different time. Like we had fun.

I don't know. I think it was different. Well, like how far would you travel to go to a meet?

I was on four different teams in junior high, but like we never got on a plane.

I wasn't that good though. So. That's the thing.

I think these, I think people are going on planes. I think they're going like to these camps that last a week that are in other places. Like, it's just, I think it's, like, a lot of fucking money unless you think your kid truly has the talent that they're going to be, like, pro.

But surely, yeah, Michael Cruz Kane, he's always taken his daughter to, like, Syracuse for volleyball or gymnastics. Like, I feel like they're always on a weekend trip to something.

Yeah.

But I don't know, because school sports is just one season. But, like, for my swimming, we had all year. But you did have to pay still.

Yeah.

But you got to like train all year.

But if, I don't know, like if you want to get good, I understand wanting to do off-season sports or do supplemental outside.

Of your school league.

But I wonder how you know which ones are scams or which ones are not or at the community center, but.

Yeah. Cause like you could still do a year round league just in your home area and not just be flying around all the time. I mean, My friend in San Diego has, like, a 13- and a 12-year-old, and she's, like, gone all the time doing travel stuff for them.

And it sounds like it's, like, draining their bank accounts.

Well, and what I heard is, like, that you used to audition or, like, try out, and then you got it or you didn't, but they want everyone's money, so there's ABC teams now.

So even if you suck, you're, like, on a team.

They'll just take your money, and you're not going to ever be— yeah.

So I, um— Yeah, let us know what your travel sports.

Experiences are like. I'm so curious.

But I've definitely seen a backlash on my social media.

Yeah. And then they're like, you don't have to spend all weekend on sport. I mean, I don't know.

Whatever.

Your kids want to do shit. If you're going to have a kid, you got to do shit. Like, it is crazy.

Yeah.

Or lounge. I did also a lot of lounging. Kids don't lounge as much anymore. Yeah.

Rosie loves playing baseball. It's one practice a week and then one game a week. She's not going to be, you know, playing college ball.

But, like, you know. But she could.

But I think also people are aggressive. Like, Misty Copeland.

Misty? Misty Copeland?

Misty?

Misty.

She didn't do ballet until she was 13 or something like that.

Yeah.

14. 14.

Everything is different for everybody.

It's like, you don't have to force the hockey stick into your kid's hands. I didn't know that. I always think ballet has to start when you're like one. Oh, they fucking trick.

But then if you are small, let's say you're a kid, they're like, you're actually too fat.

You need to leave. They won't even let the kids dance if they're fat. It's like, I don't know. Or you have big boobs.

Like, I feel like even if you just grow up and have, like, a big chest, they're like, get out of ballet.

That's part of the interesting. Yeah.

I actually saw a clip of some podcast and a ballerina said that the teachers would bring the guy dancers cheeseburgers and then look at the girls and go, none for you.

It's, like, sick. Gross.

So anyways, so they're chatting on the bench. Remember, there was kids being molested in basketball. So there was this game in Boston, like a tournament.

He does bed checks. He sat. Oh, my God.

Did you know for sports when you're at hotels, like the coaches put tape on your door to make sure you don't like that all the athletes are in before their curfews?

Oh, so then.

I saw online the opposing team was like, you shouldn't tell us, we shouldn't know where you're staying. And then they went and ripped off people's tape. Isn't that interesting? That's crazy. Yeah. But if they're all like, then I just don't think an athlete would risk not playing to like Miss Curfew. But maybe I'm being naive. Maybe I'm being naive.

I think it depends. I don't know.

I feel like there's a level where you take it so seriously, but I had like friends in college who were like so good at sports, captain of the team, and would still like party the night before once in a while.

But did they have tape on the doors? What were the rules? So it's different. They didn't break a rule. Yeah. Well, my friend who you've met actually.

Got her captainship taken away from her because she threw a pumpkin out the window of our eighth floor dorm room and it landed on our friend's car. So that obviously wasn't like on a game night or had anything specifically to do with sports.

It was just like, does that captain behavior?

It is.

So they took her captainship away. I don't know.

Anyways, captains are, I'm pissed. I'm pissed for her retroactively.

20 years ago.

So bed checks, he sat down next to the kids, started telling them how good he was doing, ruffled his hair, then turned him over and started messing with him with his hands and mouth. Um, he didn't make him touch him at first, but then it got worse and worse. And then they're like, did he rape you? Like penetrate.

He goes, nobody would just put it on me and move it around. So this guy's a freak. So then Finn asks if he told anybody and he was just like, and then new detective vibes, obviously, you know, when he says no, Amaro goes, why not? And he's like, well, Coach Ray was like a friend of the family, you know, like an uncle. He helped me get a scholarship, D1.

He helps me and I help him. It's our little secret. But he stops when, you know, this kid turned 15 and he goes, he liked the other kids better.

I got too old.

And then he said it actually got worse and started falling apart after it stopped.

And then Amaro asks if.

There's anything that, like, he can give them to help nail this guy. And he goes, he was paying me off.

They go, what?

And he goes, yeah, every month. And it kept me alive. But after my last birthday, he stopped paying me. So now we're at Riverbank State Park. There's a practice. Kids are playing. The coach is in green on the court and Finn and Amaro approach. Amaro knows these young boy players like Stabler knows Catholic schools.

Like, he's a fucking freak.

I don't know people that keep up with child sports the way Amaro seems to. He says he has seen a lot of sad cases over the years, but Stevie's the saddest. You know, he was a magician with the ball, thought he would go far, but he says he couldn't handle success and pressure. And, you know, some kids aren't wired for it. They ask, well, why would he call you out like that? He goes, I really don't know.

You know, some people just want to blame others for their failures. Call it a societal problem. They, you know, play the blame game. And so then Finn goes, well, he says you've been paying him off like hush money for years. He goes, hush money? How dare you? What, you can't loan a kid money? You can't help people?

I help all my boys. You know, but once I realized it was for drugs, I stopped. And then he goes back to work. And that sucks. The men don't trust him. And then he's talking to like a young player. So it's very upsetting. But like, you know, he has so many connects. He has so many connects. Ray could do a lot for you. He's the ticket out. So then back at the office, Cragen's like, abusive power cases bother me more than most. So, and he's still coaching. Like, that sucks. There's no physical evidence. There's no other witnesses.

And then this guy's a drug addict.

So, you know.

And then Benson goes, and the statute of limitations just ran out. And then Amaro goes, what? For child sex abuse? And what's crazy is the payment stopped right as the statute of limitations is over. So this motherfucker, I mean, he is... What's it called when you're detail-oriented and evil?

Diabolical. Diabolical.

So yeah, so he turns 24 and that's done. So he can't report anymore. Oh yeah, I wrote diabolical. Okay, so the word did come to me yesterday. Rollins then finds an old charge from 88 in New Jersey. So let's go look at that. They go to the home of Demonica Ramos. And, you know, she's like, Richie was always happy. One day he just stopped eating and didn't want to play ball anymore, which was his life.

And then, you know... Yeah, it sucked. It was the secret.

He finally told her what the coach was doing, molesting him, touching him. She sits on her son's old bed in distress. Benson grabs the desk. chair, brings it to her and sits across from the mom. It all started in a tournament in Philly. So he's leaving state lines. He's constantly leaving the state to do this stuff. And then she told the church, and they kept it quiet, and they said that they would handle it, but they never did.

She called the cops, but they all loved Coach. She begged for people to do their job.

They wouldn't.

And then a few days before the grand jury, the son hung himself in his room. And she goes, you're going to get him this time? Benson nods her head yes. So now she's pouring coffee in home base. Amaro is setting up his desk, and he puts up a framed photo of his daughter, and then he's like, eh, never mind.

Puts it back in his box. Rollins arrives, offers donuts. He says no. Benson goes, what? A cop that doesn't eat donuts? How can I trust you? Cragen asks what's up with the case. And she's like, well, this sucks because statements are coming out clean.

He only makes 50K a year. So like, where were the payouts? Like, how could he even pay out?

Amaro goes, well, you know, he probably has shady deals with agents, sneakers, recruiters, you know. And then, hello, the charity, Ray's Boy Foundation. So this is definitely, and then Amaro's like, Ray's Boys, wow. And so he's using his charity money to pay off the kids he's abused. And there has to be more kids. They need to find other payout victims.

So Cragen goes, Benson, you know, you go out there, go do some actual work, and why don't you help the new guys out, you stupid bitch. And she's like looking at him like the audacity. So Benson and Amaro walk into the office and he's all chipper. And Benson just says, Richie Ramos. They go into the coaches.

And he's like, huh? She repeats Richie Ramos. You don't remember him?

88, hung himself days before the grand jury because he molested him.

Remember that? He goes, oh, you talked to his mother. Wow, you're finding all the jokers in the deck.

And Amaro's like, well, what do you mean by that? And he's like, didn't she tell you he didn't have a father? She was doing drugs. I got them out of a shelter, got them housing. I bet, you know, I bet she didn't say that. I met him when he was illiterate. Five years later, I got him a full ride to Arizona. Any of those details mentioned? And it's like, well, no, he's dead.

So like, who cares?

Who cares if he got a scholarship? He's dead. So like, none of this actually matters. But she says, I was trying to, he says, I was trying to save him.

And she destroyed him. Benson goes, LOL, why would she do that?

And he's like, well, she had this idea about me. She wouldn't let it go. And Benson asks, well, what idea is that? He's like, let's not be children. You know exactly what I mean. And you think the same thing. And she's stone face cold. She's so cool.

She goes, am I wrong? And he's pissed.

And he goes, um, coach and star player relationship is intense and easily misunderstood. They got one chance at a future and I'm at a place to help them. And then to pay them off from your charity, is that how you help them? And he goes, one of my favorite line readings of all of SVU history, shame on you.

And my foundation and whole life is helping these kids. And he leans into her and she gets up and goes, oh, you think the law can't touch you, coach? And then she spins around and walks off. And he goes, talks to the boys. I'm the only father they've got. And he's yelling while they leave. Rollins and Finn go to talk to all these guys. No one has anything bad to say about him. They all deny any wrongdoing. One is like, I'm putting my son in the program. And then one's like, oh, I just get paid for yard work.

And he's defensive as fuck. The other guy's like, oh, that's Santa Claus. And then one guy's in prison and he starts screaming, like, how dare you even imply that I would let a man put his hands on me? So then Finn and Rollins are like, okay, bro. And so, like, they're leaving the prison after visiting this guy. And they're like, he knew how to pick his victims. And, you know, they start talking male victims. Finn is kind of the B.D.

Wong of this situation. And, you know, the convo is explaining how the victims feel and like how the victims sometimes get aroused.

And so they think they're gay or people won't believe them. And it's just very confusing.

And then also the Black and Latino communities, there's so much stigma there. And then Finn brings up his gay son and Rollins kind of looks at him different. And then Finn says, my son is the bravest man I know. Also, Rollins tan is insane here. Like, she definitely just went to the Bahamas before she started her shift. Like, she looks crazy. Um, I just never remember her being so tan.

And then it's, oh my God, I just found out a restaurant I love.

She's a regular there.

Ooh.

And comes in all the time.

So I'm really excited with like her kids and her hot husband. So pretty exciting. Um, messy bun, but I would never blow up her spot though. So messy bun, Ben sent just so she knows. Um, Messy Bun Benson and Aviator Sunglass Tomorrow are walking and talking with Stevie, the first victim, you know.

And people flip out.

Like, several people flip out anytime we don't mention this is a Broadway baby. And this is Aaron Tvea. And he's very loved, but he's only in the episode Beef. So I don't know why I feel like he's been shoved down our throats so intensely.

I thought he was in one more. That's it? Just Beef and this one?

Yeah, just Beef.

Hmm.

Yeah, you don't have to look it up. I looked it.

Up for this.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I'm like, what else do I know him from? Like, I do feel like everybody was like, you gotta get him.

Everyone's always talking about him.

Yeah.

And they're constantly talking about him to us, too. So I thought, like, we've been missing him for generations.

And it's like— Oh, I'm like, maybe it's because he was on, like, American Horror Story at one point.

I don't know. I can't—I cannot figure out why everyone— But people love him.

Or is there another Broadway guy that people are like, you fucking morons? Like, I just feel like the Broadway community— No, it's always him. It is always him.

Yeah.

It's this man.

And he's about to be in something cool, I think. I think he's about to be in something, because I'm going to go see it.

Is he? Oh, like on stage? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like he's, or maybe not.

But I am going to go see, they're in rehearsals right now, but I will be seeing Bradley Whitford in A Few Good Men.

Ooh, exciting. Yeah, I'm definitely going to that.

Oh, I mean, is it Lea Michele and Aaron Twight are doing a one-night-only concert revival of Chess?

That must be it.

Yeah, because I can't imagine anything else really hitting.

Oh, and then it said he's going back to Moulin Rouge.

Yeah, but I don't know if I'd care about that. But something's up. But people love him. But Krista Rodriguez, who's just Roxy Hart, is going to be in A Few Good Men, and I'm excited to see it.

He's got an upcoming project in his IMDb called Nice Eggs, and it is with fellow SVU alum Jane Krakowski. Whoa.

And sounds kind of fun. Maybe we'll check those guys out.

All right. And for those wondering, I will be seeing the Heated Rivalry parody musical soon. So stay tuned for my full review. But they've been extended through January. I mean, it's a hit.

I think they're sold out every night.

Wow.

I'm not surprised.

But my friend who invited me said that they want to give me merch and do a photo op.

So there'll be more merch coming my way.

Yeah.

As I'm trying to clean out my home. I mean, the new, I can't, I can't. Okay, so, Messy Bun Benson and Aviator Amaro sunglasses are walking and talking with Stevie, the first fix. Okay, I already said this with Aaron. So, and he's hot. He is fucking hot. And he's telling them what it's like being a junkie and, you know, but he feels so good right now. He feels like he could finally get on with his life. But Benson's like, well, we've hit a wall. Like, nobody is helping us. We need one other person. Like, we need to get him.

We need more. And he goes, well, there is somebody. He was my roommate at the tournaments and he got it worse than me. And it's like, who is it? And he goes, he's too big, man. He's not going to talk to you. And then they all kind of look to the right and it's a giant billboard and it's Prince Miller. So it's the guy who sent the golden key up top, Mortal Kombat, and they enter a giant office. So he feels like the LeBron of this universe.

Oh my God.

This isn't an intro, so maybe I can save it, but whatever. And this has already gone too long. So I'm out at a little birthday thing yesterday and everyone's at the table. And then suddenly, I guess I came late. I came way late, but like, I guess they've hated the server the whole night. He suddenly goes, can you guys, we need to move the tables. And everyone's like, what?

And he's like, move the table. We need to move the tables. So he starts shoving the tables. So then Lane's at the edge of the table and he starts scooting his chair back, fully falls back, right? The chair collapses. He falls back, but there's like a flower bed situation. So then he is squished like an accordion, okay? The chair falls. He fully falls back. Head hits the flower bed.

The beer flies. He was holding beer. So the beer flies on a woman that was walking by. So now this woman is poured with beer, but there's also a man that just fell. And the server starts attending to the woman and runs inside, leaves late on the ground. And so we're like helping him up, grabbing his hat.

And so then the man comes out with all these napkins for this random woman that walked by that is acting like a bitch, like acting like she is in distress when there is a man on the ground. Like we can talk about your being covered in beer in like a second. So then another girl at the table goes, Are you fucking kidding me? And starts screaming at the waiter.

He goes, he was fine. And we're all like, he was on the ground.

Like you help someone get up before the wetness, but the server just refused to accept any wrongdoing.

They're like, we've been here for hours.

We've probably spent thousands of dollars tonight and you're making us move the tables. He fell because of you and you're helping some like girl on the street. And he goes, well, she seemed upset. And we had to be like, but he's on the ground and his head's against.

The flower bed. And a current customer at your establishment. It was crazy.

And then like while we're flipping, he's rolling his eyes.

He's pissed.

It's a place where we're all regulars. Like it was just kind of crazy. That is crazy.

Mad.

He kept being mad at us like we were out of line. And it's like, you must be on coke. Like you have to help the man accordion on the ground before you help a.

Woman that's like just been poured on. But let us know if you think opposite. Let us know.

So then anyway, so they walk into this joint office and it's the cousin and business manager and he's getting like his hair done up by a barber and he's like, what's up? And they go, hey, Finn and Benson are like, hey, this is going to be like sensitive.

So they asked the barber to leave.

And so he takes the cape with him and we see this guy's in a burgundy vest and he puts his feet up on the desk. So Finn clocks the shoes and goes, love those. And he explains, you know, there's only one pair. It's a prototype from their Korean factory. And they do all their own merch. It's the only pair that exists. Even Prince doesn't have them yet. I mean, you guys, the foreshadowing is strong in this episode.

Ding, ding, ding.

So he says, you've hit 20 years yet. You should come work for us. Benson goes, no job for me. He says, I don't know. Can you dance?

I'll kill him. He also looks like cartoonishly evil looking.

He looks like the guy that's ahead of the security for Jafar in Aladdin.

Well, you know who it is, right?

No.

It's Heavy D who plays Supreme. I don't know. I didn't know who Heavy D is. I only know that name. Heavy D is like a rapper. And he was like, he had like Heavy D and the boys. I can't believe it's Heavy D. Okay, yeah.

But he's also been in like Cider House Rules. Like he's been in other acting stuff.

But.

But, like, so this is not, like, his first acting thing, but he actually died, like, I think, shortly. Now, look up Razul from Aladdin. Razul?

R-A-Z-O-U-L. You don't think? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, big guy, missing a tooth. Well, it's the eye.

The one who's trying to get, yeah, the eyes. Maybe it's when I paused it, but it's like, this is Razul. I have a set in a Razul's name. until right now. Like, he looked like Aladdin's head of security. But I guess it is Heavy D.

Wow. Yeah, wait. When did this episode air? Did he die immediately after filming this?

He died a month after this episode aired. Like, he died November of 2011. And this aired at the end of September 2011.

Crazy.

He has 66 acting. Oh, he was in Tower Heist, one of my favorite movies. Yeah, he was only 44. He had a pulmonary embolism.

That sucks.

Yeah.

Heavy D. But, I mean, he's good in this role.

Oh, yeah.

He's very good. So, then Prince walks in. And then David Arnoff is here. Benson's like, wow, the big guns. So, I feel like it's like the commissioner of the NBA or something. They don't even really talk about it. Or it's the lawyer, or it's their lawyer. Because then there's another old white man throughout the episode. And I was like, is it the same guy or not?

But whatever.

So it's either a lawyer or the NBA commissioner. I'm going to say the lawyer. So then they go over all of his accolades. He looks at Benson and says, we're not going to, you know, we're not, the cousin goes, we're not going to let anyone mess with our success. So they all sit down. He talks about coach, success, pressure, prepared him for success. Benson says, how much pressure did he use? They talk basketball. And Finn goes, not in basketball.

We're talking life. He gets really defensive and goes, nothing has gone wrong in my life.

Okay. So then Finn says, can you take off your glasses? I want to see your eyes. LOL. Romantic.

And the commissioner, aka the lawyer, aka someone, tapes this whole conversation.

At this moment, turns off the camera and goes, no. Bye, guys. We're done.

So back at the precinct, they're talking about how like people handle abuse and stuff like that. So like some are junkies and then some are super achievers. Rollins goes, I don't know if everything is hunky-dory. Like his Hall of Fame induction, every single star player came except for him. He does not want to face this old man. So then Amaro grabs his cell phone.

He goes, oh, my wife.

And then Finn goes, oh, wow, short leash. And it's like, it's just answering a phone call, but sure. So then he's like more like Iraq. And then, you know, Stevie. But he said that she was doing propaganda over there, which is like a crazy thing to admit. Like usually isn't propaganda like secret? He's like, yeah, she's over there doing propaganda.

So then. Wait, who did he say that about? His wife, Laura Benanti.

Yeah.

Stevie walks in.

He asked if they talked to Prince because Prince contacted him after not speaking for eight years and invited him to the club tonight. And he goes, like, how do you want me to play this? So he's, like, willing to help the NYPD. And what should I wear? And Amaro goes, how about a wire? So now we get Cabot.

She's sexy as hell. Amaro and Benson need a warrant for a controlled meet. It's risky, risky. But she has other ideas because of a mass state legislature issue. I don't even fully get this, because of pedo-priest moving states, like Massachusetts has some sort of statutes and laws that allow certain things to happen. So she's going to call the DA in Boston and see if we can get him in this other way as well. But Stevie takes off.

He's going to go meet. So they're outside the nightclub, and they're arguing. Prince and Stevie are yelling. He says, stop spreading lies. He screams, not lies, and he's still doing it. And he goes, shut your mouth, you junkie trick-ass bitch. And then people are beating the shit out of him. And then Amaro and Benson pull up right at the nick of time. Prince screams, you're crazy. He's bleeding.

He wants to be left alone. He runs off.

So now it's like full sunshine. Rollins, Amaro, and Finn are at the coffee breakfast cart. And he never like checked back into rehab. Amaro gets a call. Uh-oh, obviously Stevie is dead. And Amaro's card is in the victim's pocket. So then there's still like full blood from the night before. So like from walking from the club till this death, like there wasn't even time enough to like wipe blood off his face. So then they shouldn't have let him walk away. You know, they're blaming themselves. And then it's, you know, they do a full workup. And now, you know, like the uni wants to treat it like a junkie overdose.

And then Finn isn't not having it. So we're at Melinda's house, the morgue, and she's saying it was a hot shot. He probably did it himself, but it was a big dose. And Amara's wearing gloves and he's flirting and questioning Melinda. And if he wasn't so hot, like, I think she would be meaner. But she smirks and, like, lets him, you know, babble. And he says, well, if he did it himself, he's right-handed. He touches the left arm.

There was four attempts to hit the vein. Career junkie knows how to shoot up. And Melinda's like, well, yeah, I noted that in my report, asshole. Like, you're not telling me something I don't know. And Benson is like, okay, okay, you guys. And it's like, well, couldn't have a bunch of guys held him down and like, you know, tried to do it. Melinda goes, that is a plausible scenario, but he also could have been like tipsy or fucked up.

And then like, you know, tired and not got in the vein. Like, either options, but like, I don't know what you want from me. He got into, but they're like, but he got into a fight hours earlier. There were threats. And they're like, we have to get someone for this. And Melinda goes, I cannot help you.

You know this. I cannot.

And Amaro goes, fine. Can you at least hold the report and say you're backed up? Like, I, you know, I'll owe you one. And she's going to give in for sure. And so she's going to help him out.

And then the.

So the precincts walk, precincts walk. So it's Amaro, Cragen, and Cabot. And they're like, was it coach? Was it club people?

Who is it?

So now Prince is in the office. He feels terrible what happened with Stevie, but.

He... It's not him.

So he's in a tan leather jacket, sunnies, and they're in woodroom blinds with Benson and Finn. And they're like, where were you after 3 a.m. last night?

The lawyer's there, ready to go.

There's a video of him having sex with two women, all time stamped, and they fucked until afternoon.

And so then.

And the girls also signed consent forms before and after the encounter. And they're like, do you always do this or just like last night? And he goes, you gotta have insurance. Benson gets up and said, Stevie said you got it worse than he did. And, um... And then they ask, when did Coach Ray stop raping you? And he tells her to shut her mouth and that he has no idea what she's talking about. And she goes, then why did you get so upset every time I bring it up? And he goes, nobody touches Prince Miller.

Nobody.

The lawyer says, fuck off. You know, we came here to be nice and helpful and you're doing this. We don't like it. We have some brands to promote. So then he leaves and now it's team meeting time. And Craig is like, this was such a fucking waste. And Benson's like, obviously something happened to him. Like, what do we do? And Cabot goes, maybe he just like did OD Stevie. And Amaro goes, no, I do not see it.

He was committed to the program. And Finn is like, he is all about protecting his brand. Like what happened? So now it's corkboard time, right? Crime scene photos.

Guess what?

There's a sneaker blood print. And the sneaker shoe is Prince's brand.

Oh my God.

So now we're at the cousin, like the cousin and Prince are in the car. They make the cousin get out of the car. They ask for the shoes. He takes them off. He's in his socks. And he like, he has to walk in his socks to get to the cop car. And the cousin immediately knows he's fucked up because he was like bragging about the one shoe in existence. And like, you're toast, babe. So then he tells Prince to call the lawyer ASAP. Benson goes to the passenger seat window to Prince and goes, you were telling the truth. It wasn't you. It was your cousin, Supreme.

He says Supreme wouldn't kill Stevie either.

That's crazy.

And it's like, wouldn't he? Supreme and Coach are the same. They, you know, Coach ran you and now he does. Neither of them are looking out for you. They're looking out for themselves. He says, you don't know what you're talking about and closes the car window, like slowly, kind of like a cartoon, truly. So now the Supreme shoes are a match. Stevie's blood is in the shoes, but it still leaves the Coach out there. So we need Prince.

So they brainstorm how to get Prince to talk about the Coach. and like at least force a grand jury situation. And Benson goes, maybe remind him of what life was like before the molesting. So tomorrow when Benson bring him to the summer league court games, manipulation, he's like, I thought we were going downtown.

So, he's in a suit.

Everyone goes wild. They love him. There's like a little boy that runs up wearing a Prince shirt. But it is funny because it is a symbol. So, like, but Prince isn't part of the real crime, right?

The musician?

No.

It's funny that they made a symbol of him and his name is Prince.

Yeah. Yes.

It just like hit me right now.

Yeah.

I actually didn't clock that either.

Yeah, no.

It was like you didn't do the Nike swoosh because obviously you can't.

But they made like a Prince symbol.

Yeah.

Wild.

And then Prince sees Coach. And then all the kids are crowding him.

The coach, you know, talks them through offense.

And he goes, it's been too long. And he has his hand on a kid's shoulder. Menacing. Creepy.

He goes, amongst all my players, you are my favorite. And then he acknowledges Benson. You know, he goes, detective. Then he ruffles the kid's head and pushes him back to the court. Benson and Amaro are like, you see yourself in that kid? All the talent in the world and coach, you know, to show him all the right moves.

And they're going to a tournament this weekend. You remember those, right? Bed checks, everything. Prince is deep in thought. He closes his eyes. Prince is at the grand jury.

He agrees.

And then it's like press conference time. So Carmelo and Chris are behind him being supportive, flashing lights, lots of mics. He takes off his sunglasses. So we see his eyes for the first time. And as players, we put our trust in coaches at a very early age. They teach us the game, help us through school, advice on life.

Sometimes they even hold our dreams in their hands. One coach betrayed that trust. Today, I made an important decision. I told the grand jury the truth about Ray Masters, how he recruited me for his team when I was 10 years old, and he started sexually abusing me on our first road trip and continued until I was 15.

Why didn't I come forward then? Because I was a little kid.

I was confused and ashamed, and I didn't want to jeopardize my chances at basketball. Benson watching in office. Richie's mom, you know, is watching and crying. And then Devin, the young player that, like, just got his hair ruffled at the park, he's watching and crying. And as, like, yeah, he's watching Prince confess. He starts crying. He's so stressed out.

His mom sits next to him on the couch and goes, what's wrong? He hugs his mom and cries into her. And he's sorry he kept the secret for so long.

This is back to Prince, so the press conference.

He goes, I'm sorry I kept the secret for so long because many others might have been victimized after me. I hope they come forward and tell their stories too because I know they're hurting. But truth can be the best medicine. And then the coach is in fucking cuffs. Fuck yeah. And then Finn puts him in the back of the car. Shame is not ours. It's like, it's his.

You know, the prince is still talking. And then Chris Bosh taps his shoulder in support. And then Benson breathes a sigh of relief. And then tears well up in Prince's eyes. And that's Dick Wolf Baby. It's a really good episode. But I wonder if it's because we watch it too much and know everything. But, like, the moment he said only one person has these shoes, I'm like, well, we know we're going to.

See the shoes.

Well, yeah.

We've talked about, yeah, the shoes. The shoes were not just a reference for nothing.

I know.

There was two parts of this episode like that where it's like, fuck. But yeah, it's a good one. I kind of don't want to hear about the crimes, but here we go.

It's really crazy because the.

Timeline of this is kind of wild.

So this story is very, very identical to a real story. There is a coach in New York City named Ernest Ernie Lorch. who was a wealthy middle-aged lawyer who worked at an adjustment firm. But I don't know what that means, but it was like a Fifth Avenue adjustment firm. So he's rich, okay? And he was brought in to run the basketball program out of Riverside Church, which is in Morningside Heights, which if you don't know New York City, that's an area where Columbia University is.

It's right below Harlem. And he gets brought in to lead it in 1961.

Okay. And the Riverside Hawks become this elite club in the amateur athletic union. And not like just to explain Lorch's reach is like, not only is he rich and sort of powerful, he's not just the head coach.

He was at times a deacon at the church.

He was a leader on the church's board of trustees and a chairman of the finance and executive committee. So he's like a big guy at this church and he's coaching these guys for free. This is like a volunteer position. So he recruits promising young guys, Many of them Black and Latino kids looking for a safe alternative to, you know, life on the streets or like dangers of, you know.

Just their neighborhoods.

And he had over a thousand Riverside alumni who went on to play college basketball. Several dozen more made it to the NBA, including two Hall of Famers, Nate Archibald, Ron Artest, Lamar Odom, Kenny Anderson. Two guys that he had were St. John's stars at St.

John's University. And then they went on to the NBA, Chris Mullen and Mark Jackson.

Again, I recognize Lamar Odom and Ron Artest, but I don't really know a lot of these guys. But a lot of big college stars and even NBA players came out of this guy's program. And then even after, like they said, you've made more millionaires than Harvard Business School. He would connect players to high-paying jobs. He would get them into international competitions. while they were playing, and he would pay for everything, like travel, sports gear. Sometimes he would help pay for their college tuition. And a program like this, a few programs like this, and coaches like this started to emerge, and they laid the foundation for what today is considered a $ 40 billion private equity-backed youth sports industry, where big brands like Adidas and Nike flood

money into city schools to try to discover talent and this and that, and they make a ton of money.

So the first hiccup with Lorch, I guess, was.

In 2000, the NCAA ruled that he'd broken their rules because he helped one of his players, a guy named Eric Barkley, who also played for St. John's and then went on to play in the NBA, that he helped pay for his prep school in Maine. And that's against the rules? I guess that's against the rules. So whatever.

He moves past that. But then in 2002... this kid, this kid, not kid, at this point, he's a 34-year-old man, but he blows up the entire Riverside scandal by going public in 2002 with an interview from federal prison, where he's in prison on a weapons charge, to the New York Daily News about how Lorch frequently sexually abused him as a child and then paid him to stay quiet.

And Holmes had gone from an honor student in sixth grade to a career criminal over the course of you know, being involved in this program. So when New York passes the Children's Victims Act in 2019, that extended the statute of limitations for sexual abuse lawsuits, allowing victims to file claims against their abusers until the accusers turn 55. The law also included a year-long look-back period that revived cases that had already expired under the statute of limitations.

So when that happened, Holmes.

filed a lawsuit alleging that Lorch sexually abused him from the ages of 12 to 15, and that he had received more than $ 2 million from Lorch over a three-year period.

In the late 90s.

And him and his mom confronted Lorch about the abuse, and then he paid them $ 25, 000. Then later, when Holmes was getting in legal troubles, he paid for criminal defense for him, $ 250, 000.

And then.

Ultimately, there were 50 or 60 checks, some for amounts more than 100K that he was giving Holmes and his family or whatever from 97 to 2000. So Holmes was trying to reverse a federal weapons charge against him from 2000. And he was serving an eight-year sentence for that. And as part of his affidavit to reverse his conviction on these weapons charges, he said that he was trying to argue that his lawyers provided him with ineffective counsel by letting Lorch, the man who was paying for his defense, testify at his trial. Which you could say does have conflict of interest things. You know, if the guy that's paying for your defense is testifying also... I don't really know the details around this man's weapons conviction. But he testified,

Lorsch testified, yes, I gave this guy about $ 2 million. I thought the money was to help him. I thought it was for businesses like a music studio and a nightclub. But Holmes' suit alleged that it was, quote, to seek refuge from his wrongdoings of sexual abuse. Because you would think, a few hundred K maybe to start a music studio or a nightclub, but two million, that seems like a lot just to like believe in someone.

And then Holmes said- Because it's being a deacon volunteering too. Or is that- Oh, I don't think that's paid.

I don't know.

Yeah, deacons are suspicious to me. Christians get at us.

I don't know. I don't think so. But yeah, he wasn't getting paid for this. Like in the show, they're like, oh, he makes 50 K or something, right? Like, I don't think he makes anything for this. Permanent deacons in the Catholic Church generally do not receive a salary, it says on the internet.

They don't. I knew it.

So he's volunteer basketball and deacon. This is double molestations. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like Little League coach, magician, teacher.

Like these are like the last episode with the William Sadler episode we did. It's like these are too many jobs where you're getting close to kids and not and not for work and just to.

And having power over them.

Yeah. So it's like— Exactly. Not even just a loose volunteer, the top volunteer. Yep. No, but Dick Wolf is in the Telematrix, and I did trial by jury in Los Angeles, and both at 1%.

You know, people aren't functioning.

Nobody knows.

Thinking about those babies.

So Holmes said that Lorch multiple times had assaulted him at his home and at Riverside from 1980 to 1983. Among other allegations, he claimed he was forced to, quote, orally copulate Lorch on 50 occasions. And Holmes said in an interview that he associates specific places and smells with Lorch. He goes, quote, believe it or not, Gristiti's, which is a supermarket chain in New York City. He goes, we'd buy grapes. And right after the grapes came the abuse.

And now I don't go into Gristiti's anymore. So unfortunately, as of August of 2026, his trial had yet to go to court. And when asked about the delays, Holmes said, quote, for a time, I was disappointed with the movement on the case. But what I've learned is that the wheels of justice move slowly. I think we will achieve a resolution to this case at some point. Now, this happened, he came forward with these charges in 2002. And the reason why there could be no criminal was because the statute of limitations at the time obviously had run out.

But this is where the Massachusetts thing comes in from the episode, which is crazy because a lot of this came out in 2002, yes, but like, All of the extra stuff, I feel like all of these lawsuits that I'm about to tell you about don't happen until 2019 and like the early 2000s. And this episode was from 2011.

So they obviously, when the New York Daily News covered it, they obviously found out about it and got into it. But in 2010, Lorch was indicted in Massachusetts on a charge of sexually abusing former Riverside and University of Texas El Paso player Byron Walker. in the 70s during a trip to Boston. He was, I'm just, this is just an interesting factoid, Byron Walker, only 5'11, but he coached him to be this like, you know, powerhouse player. And at the time, the 47-year-old coach tried to rape Walker from behind, who was 16. And what Walker said in court was, quote, this motherfucker, he fucking ejaculates on me.

And he says, I was scared.

So in 2025, Rolling Stone does a huge article about this guy and about the cases that are ongoing. And when they asked Walker, who is now 65 at the time, last year, what he was scared of, he basically echoed what everyone told Rolling Stone, which was, quote, the true nature of power and control.

This man had power over my career as an athlete. Sadly.

Lorch, the name, even his last name sounds like an evil last name, like of an evil man, like watch out for Mr.

Lorch.

He sounds like a creepy neighbor. And he never.

Stood trial for his crimes because when he was accused in 2010, he was wheelchair bound and suffering from dementia. And then he died in 2012. Some sources say he was 79. Some say he was 80. But before any criminal charges could be brought, he died and the indictment was dismissed. But now we're talking about this Child Victims Act and we're going after the church, right?

The Riverside Church.

One of the victims who actually had his case go to court in January of this year, 2026, the very beginning of the year, was abused by Lortz from 74 to 83. Paul Moniz is his lawyer and represents 16 of the 27 men bringing lawsuits against Riverside. And the victim's abuse spans from 71 to 95. So 24 years of abusing people. And it probably honestly went on longer.

He didn't get indicted until 2010 and he didn't step down until 2002. He still had seven more years to molest people and I'm sure he did. Powell and other victims testified that Lorch would do quote unquote jockstrap inspections, touching their genitals. He would like, spank their naked asses for minor fuck-ups on the court. And then he would watch them shower and smell them afterwards.

What the fuck?

It sounds like it ranges from general creepiness all the way to full rape and sexual assault. And so since Powell... Um, so, so he actually ended up Powell, um, settling right before closing arguments. So the trial started and people were testifying, but right before closing arguments, he settled in January of 2026.

And since he settled, everyone thought these other 20 something cases would settle as well, but only one additional case has formally been settled.

It's moving very slowly.

In the meantime, which I can imagine is because this opened up in 2019. It was a one-year period, and I think they're just getting through a slog of cases of people that, you know, are, and they're harder to investigate because they're from older times. And so a third Riverside player, in the meantime, has died. Three of the players have died while waiting for justice in their cases.

And now, apparently, there were people at Riverside who spoke up about the abuse, but the church leadership didn't really do anything, which I know is super shocking to everyone listening. So before the Holmes lawsuit went public, Lorch actually contacted a former youth minister at Riverside named Robert Polk, Reverend Robert Polk, and was like, hey, just so you know, this article about me is coming out in the paper tomorrow.

Polk says he intentionally did not ask Mr. Lorch if he was guilty or not guilty, and Mr. Lorch did not volunteer the information. So classic church. Riverside's defense... is that they deny that they were in loco parentis. So we know from the episode in loco parentis that in loco parentis means you are responsible for a child's safety, like as if you are their guardian. Like schools are in loco parentis during the day with kids.

Summer camps.

If you're overnight summer camp, you're in loco parentis for a kid during the day. So they deny, they say, quote, it is undisputed that Riverside is a church and not a school. And the alleged abuse, quote, did not take place in any situation remotely resembling an educational or school setting. So this church is riding the notoriety of this program.

All these famous people are coming out of this program. It's going on for decades. But then when it's time to own up to something that this predator did for decades under their watch, they're.

Like, but it's not school. We're church. We're actually different than school.

Like, how can you argue that a sports team that's taking kids in off the street and like educating them in the ways of sport is not education and does not count as in local branches? Not to mention some of this abuse is taking place on their property.

And it's like when you have to get into the technicalities to defend yourself, you're a pedophile. Yeah. Yeah.

And pay taxes. How about that?

Yeah.

So I think, honestly, the last article I read about this was like from August of like two months ago. So I feel like these cases are ongoing against this guy, against this church. And I thought something very interesting that I found was the New York Times did a piece in 2019 where they examined a lot of different sexual abuse cases brought against coaches, including Lorch. And they found that basketball coaches accounted for a third of them more than any other.

Sport, which I think is so interesting. I wonder. You know what?

I wonder if it's like you could be extra poor and like— no, because soccer.

Too— Yes, but soccer's not as big in the United States.

Well, for kids it is. But I guess without the future. Because I'm thinking equipment. Like, football's a lot of equipment. Hockey's a lot of equipment. If you're picking your, you know, they know how to pick their victims. And so baseball, too, like, you need equipment. Like, basketball, you don't need anything but sneakers.

Yes.

Well, you need a hoop, and cities have plenty of those, right? So, like... But you don't have to buy that, is what I'm saying. Like, you don't have to buy equipment.

So, like, the barrier of entry to basketball, yeah, you can, like, manipulate the poor kids.

And I think that that.

I think it's absolutely true of soccer coaches, too, and I'm sure around the world it's more prevalent where soccer is more prevalent.

I think in cities, we don't have big.

grassy fields for kids to play soccer as much as we have basketball courts. And then when you're in cities, you're talking about inner city populations where kids are looking for sports as a way to focus.

On something like a lot of these kids were. And so anyway.

This was also, like, allegedly loosely based on another coach who was similar to Lurch named Robert Oliva, Bob Oliva, who was the coach at Christ the King High School, which won five city titles, also featured Lamar Odom. I mean, like, Lamar Odom played for both of these pedophile coaches, and he is, like, a man that has— He's had a lot of problems. He's had a lot of problems, and it's like— I don't know if he's been public about that, but definitely something has happened to him in his life.

Damn.

And Jason Williams, another player that played for Oliva, and then a lot of like McDonald's All-Americans. But this guy was arraigned in Boston, again, Massachusetts, in April of 2010, right before the Lorch trial in Massachusetts, or the Lorch indictment. And he pleaded, originally he pleaded not guilty to two charges of rape of a child, but then by 2011, April of 2011, he actually pled guilty and and was sentenced to five years probation after pleading guilty to two counts of child rape and one count of disseminating pornography to a minor.

Oh my God. In 2010.

In 2010, this man got five years probation for raping a child?

What is happening, Massachusetts? I mean, in 2011 was the sentencing. Well, and we'll.

Probably talk about this in an intro, so who knows, but I mean, today, the Cornell stuff.

Oh my God.

The like, gang rape in the frat house, and they all just had to write a letter. An essay, right?

Yeah, it was like, you think it's, like, an essay is going to fix gang rape? Like, if you want to, if you drug and gang rape someone, you belong in prison.

Yeah. Yeah, nothing happened. And, yeah, I mean, this.

I just was, I didn't even really want to talk about the Robert Oliva thing because I was like, oh, it's the other story.

Like, Lorch's story seems like it's mapped right onto this episode.

Yeah.

But this guy, too.

And then I wanted to highlight how crazy that sentence is. I mean, he obviously retired before the trial even happened. He's not coaching anymore. But like, oh, my God. like, just such a little sentence for literally rape of a child. Like, it's not like it even went down to child endangerment or sexual... I don't know. There seems like there's all these lesser charges. This is fully child rape.

We should probably do some deep diving on the judge.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know. Like, I was very surprised by that. But I just.

I think it's so crazy that, like, all of these cases didn't come forward even... until 2019 when everybody came forward with the lawsuits. Like this one guy came forward in 2002, had a New York Daily News story. Then the case, the indictment was brought in 2010. And then this episode happens the final year. So I just think it's kind of, SVU again is always like a little bit ahead of it. It's like they knew that this guy- was doing this. Like, it seems like it was an open secret, but not until 2019 did all the people come forward. And also a lot of these guys had to come get over their shame of it. They all talk about how they were so ashamed to talk about it.

And then I think once, you know, I think it also helps that like, if one lawyer, like this guy, Monez takes on like 16 of the cases, he's like, I know exactly what you went through because I've got 15 other guys who did, you know?

And you start gathering people, and you can.

Well, yeah, because I'm curious from the episode when the guy was like, and I'm sending my son there, if he was someone that wasn't molested, or if he just doesn't care, or it's worth it, like, for this money. But I guess people send their kids to Catholic church all.

The goddamn time. Yeah.

Yeah.

I just... Right.

I guess, yeah, sometimes money is just like that. I have to imagine, too, sometimes people just... can compartmentalize and downplay things that happened to them and go, no, it was part of, it was part of like, cause even this guy Powell was saying for a long time, one of these victims was saying for a long time, I was like, no, that, that program helped contribute to who I am.

Like it made me who I am.

But then he sort of grappled with what the abuse did to him and decided to come forward when this statute made it possible. And some of the plaintiffs against him go just by initials, and some people are coming out with their full names, you know?

Okay, so you can do it with initials.

Yeah.

That's nice.

So I hope these cases go through, and I hope this freaking church has to pay for it.

I really do.

And I think it's undisclosed what Powell settled for or the other settlement, but I'm hoping that they... But it's just crazy to me that they made this episode 15 years ago, and these lawsuits are just now processing... obviously because of the law, but like, yeah, ahead of its time as always.

All right.

We have truly a fantastic interview coming up.

So don't move a muscle.

Our guest today, oh my gosh, what a get, a prolific TV and theater actor. He played Jack Sullivan on the show Sullivan and Son, and he's best known for his role as Jack Arnold, the dad on The Wonder Years.

And you know him.

Today as pedophile basketball coach Ray Pennington. Please enjoy our conversation with the legendary Dan Lauria.

Have you been getting.

Cast as coaches since you were, like, starting out as an actor? Or is this, like, because, like, when I'm looking at your IMDb, you're, like, coaches, coaches, coaches.

Oh, coaches, FBI, and used to do a lot of villains, and then the Wonder Years came, and it was all dads, you know?

Yeah.

But every once in a while, you know, like, Dick Wolf, he cast me as a coach who was a pedophile.

Yeah.

You get to play both ends, you know?

Yeah, I don't know.

You play a really menacing, evil pedophile very well.

Wow. The check cleared.

No, because that's funny that you say that because I watched The Wonder Years and you were so intimidating to me from The Wonder Years.

Like, you know, Kevin's dad is.

little bit scary and then then after that they just wanted you to play dads i would i would think it would be like tapping into all these millennials that know you as sort of scary dad i think that's the smart thing dick wolf did bringing you in as this villain is like oh gosh you know.

Yeah yeah no he's so he's wise in his casting yeah yeah you know the one year is uh The character was created by Neil Mons, Carol Black, and Bob Brush was our head writer for all of it. After the first 18 until the end, it was really the writing. It's always the writing. I'm not a dad. So it's odd that the L.A. Times once on Father's Day, they had a thing. Who on TV is the dad you would most want? And I wasn't even on the list.

The next year, they had a contest. Who was the dad on TV which was most like the one you had? I was number one. Yeah.

Wow.

Nobody wanted me, but everybody had me.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that show, I mean, do you still get recognized from that all the time?

Oh, yeah. Especially, we just toured Ireland with a play there. They still show it every day. Here, you've got to go on Hulu or one of those.

Wow, the Irish are still in the wonder years.

Yeah, yeah. Well, they like writing. They're not into this cut-cut special effects stuff. They're still into storytelling.

What play did you do?

I do a play with Patti McCormick. When she was 11, she was nominated for Best Supporting Actress for The Bad Seed.

Oh yeah.

He's 81 now and I'm 80. We, we do a play called just another day that I wrote. We got rave reviews and we've been, uh, well, we've been going around helping theaters cause we, we rehearse every week and, uh, we're ready to go up in two days. So theaters that are having trouble will call us in for weekend.

So end of September, we're at the colonial theater and, uh, Phoenixville, Pennsylvania. And then in February, we're going to be in Toronto. And in January, we're going back to Ireland again. Oh, cool. Yeah.

What's the play about?

It's about two old comedy writers who have dementia. Oh, wow. So each day we meet, we write comedy, we fall in love. And the next day is, did I sleep with you last night? So they can't. help reacting to a straight line it's like in their nature and the idea of the play is that the creative spirit never dies yeah i.

Love that and you wrote it.

Yeah yeah they they won't let me act on screen anymore so i just wrote my own couldn't get anybody to read it because all the grants have one word in common young Well.

I'm looking at your IMDb, and it has a lot of upcoming projects.

It seems like you're still working.

Well, the rule in the business is if you don't have any money, call Dan. He'll do it. If you have money, they call the stars. But either way, I'll audition for anybody, but I'm not self-taping. I think that's one of the reasons why I moved from L.A. I think it's so insulting to ask 40 of us who've been in the business forever to self-tape just in case a bigger name can't do it. I mean, I understand why you want a big, I just, they wanted me to self-tape for something that they have an offer out to Al Pacino. I don't blame him for getting Al Pacino.

He's one of our greatest actors, but why did you have 40 of us self-tape?

Yeah. That's so annoying when you're auditioning and then they, it's just, they just, they already have the famous person.

It's right. You know, I wanted him, I'd be glad to self-tape if you guarantee me the person who gets it self-tape. And if you give it to a bigger name, then send us $ 100 for wasting our time and money and energy on that. I just thought it was insulting.

Yeah. And so do you miss going into the rooms?

Oh, yeah. Oh, I love, yeah. No, my mentor was Charles Durning. And I learned right away that You never audition. You've got 10 minutes to act. Just act. 90,000 members of our union are not acting today. I got 10 minutes to act. I don't care if I get the job or not. I'm just gonna and it's one of the reasons why i i've done over 70 guest spots it's because i loved the audition room you know i didn't care there's audition i know everyone i was you know going up against were really fine actors like charles dunning you would say hey i know when i walk in at kenny mcmillan's they're all sweet all these great acts and we're all gonna be great so who cares You know, just act. That's what I tell young people.

When you get an audition, don't waste your time looking around or worrying about what they want. You got five minutes to act, act.

Yeah. Or like, I always also think like you're going to learn something.

It's practice. It's like, that's kind of like school or something, you know?

And you learn very, or I did in the business, that a good director, there was always, you know, when we went in a room, there was always the writer, the director, and at least one of the producers. But a really good director, even if you nail it, they'll give you a note. They just want to see how you'll take it and how you work. And again, you can't do that on a self-tape. Also, I can't tell you how many times I auditioned and didn't get the job, but three months later, they called you and said, hey, we loved your last audition. We want you. You were just too ugly for that role. You're perfect for this one.

But that never happens with a self-tape.

Now, you've been on so many sets. You've really been working for decades. What are the things, like when you walk on set, you're like, this is going to be a shit show, or like, oh, this is a well-oiled machine. What are the things you look for when you get to work?

Well, I, again, like Charles Zarning, I always loved the title of supporting actor, not featured actor. And I always considered myself. So when I go on as a guest star, I like to talk with the people who I'm doing the scene with. And if they want to run the lines, then I know this is going to be a good show.

Regardless whether it was the best written or not, I know they care. Those actors care. And usually the crew, well, they, you know, Charles Durning always said, you know, when you're in front of a camera, you're playing for the toughest audience in the world, not the public, the crew. They've seen everything. They have little ways of telling you if it's good. Like on the one day, Steve Confer, he's our cinematographer. He was also operating the camera. And if we did a scene and he got off the camera when they said cut, we knew we did it well.

Like we didn't need another take. And if he stayed on the camera, we knew you can do better than that. So they, the crew has ways of letting you know. So I look for that when I go on a set.

Ooh, that's a good one that people want to run lines. You know, people care.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

A lot of the stars, they get, they're not, they don't mean to be mean or anything, but they, they're tired. You know, they've been doing shows and I love working like with Mariska Haggerty. I did a couple of shows. She was always standing. You want to run the lines? I mean, she's been there, you know, and she's always busy, but yeah. I was so glad to see that they asked her to host the Emmys the other night. Oh, yeah.

Did you watch? She's had a huge year.

Yeah. You know, you watch for your friends. Yeah. Gene Smart's a good friend.

Oh.

Forever. So I'm always happy when she wins. Always disappointed when Wendy Malek doesn't get nominated.

Oh, my God. Dan, are you friends with Wendy?

Because she agreed to do our podcast, and then we've been having a hard time tracking her down for scheduling, and I'm obsessed with her.

She's like my favorite actress.

Yeah, she's one of the finest actresses.

I've written like three pilots where she's a main character in them.

Yeah, she should have her own show. She's one of those actresses that, you know, like Joe Mantegna, there's never a headache. You know, they're there. They know their lines. I toured with a plate of guys about 9-11. Ironically, this is the 25th year and this was the first year we haven't done a performance of that play. And we're the only ones who do it off book. We don't read it like love letters. And I've done a number of plays with Wendy. She's special.

And do you remember your first SVU episode, Damaged, with Ari Grainer?

It's from 23 years ago, so it's okay if you don't remember.

But it's like my number one favorite SVU episode. You play a dad and you guys have like an adopted daughter.

Oh, yeah. And she kills her sister.

Yeah, yeah. No, I'll tell you what I remember about that. My last line, I threw it in there. It was the law. She said, I'm sorry, it's the law. And I went, the law. They debated whether to keep it or not. And I just said, why don't we just do one and I won't say anything. And as soon as it was over, the director said, I hope they keep the one where you go the law.

Yeah.

Gave it a button.

That's a tough episode.

Yeah.

Well, the better ones are the tough ones. Yeah. Yeah.

This one as well, personal fouls that we're covered for today.

Tough. Shame on you when you say that to her. It's so good.

Dick Wolf has kept a lot of us actors alive, especially us theater people. Between plays, we had to get some TV work to pay the bills. Yeah. Yeah. Always liked working on Law & Order. Always very professional sets.

Yeah, because you've done them all.

Yeah, you've done original twice and SVU twice and then A Criminal Intent.

Oh, the original I did five times. Oh, really? Oh, I saw it on your... Yeah, I went back and was the chief of detectives. I did three of those.

Do you remember your character? Was he an asshole? Chief Joseph Sturdivant.

Right, yeah, and I... And I knew Jerry Orbeck's character from the past, which is great because Jerry was a friend. Yeah.

You have some good friends.

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you a story. Jerry, you know, he would come to L.A. every once in a while, and I had him stay at my house instead of a hotel, you know. And I had to go over to Peter Falk's house to give him a script. We were going to do a play reading. So I said, Jerry, you know, come on over. You meet Peter, you know.

And Peter had this beautiful pool table. Peter was a pretty good pool player. So I walked in. Oh, how are you? And Jerry just saw that pool table and his mouth watered. He says, oh, you want to play? So Peter Falk says, oh, sure, Jerry. You like to play pool? We'll play pool. You want to play for something?

So Jerry said, I'll tell you what, Peter. You break and you shoot first. And then I'll shoot. And if you want to play for something, I'll play you. So Peter shot, he made about six, seven balls. And Jerry Orbach ran three racks of balls. And Peter Falk looked at me and said, you brought a ringer over? I could have lost my house with this. You know, so they played fool for a couple of hours and talked about old theater stories, you know.

So did you start in the theater?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I never went to. I never went a year without doing a play, even during COVID. Wendy Malek and I actually started the Durango Play Fest, which is still running. And every year we go there and work on new plays for a week and try to get something published or produced.

That's so cool.

Yeah, I try to, you know, the knees are going. So, and, uh, But, you know, like I say, the TV work is gone now with the self-tapes, but the theater, I still get calls to do plays.

I mean, you've had a really impressive career.

I know IMDb doesn't really, like, differentiate between TV and movies, but, like, you have 228 credits, and, like, most of the people we talk to that have that many credits have done, like, a ton of voiceover, like video games and, like, commercials. Your whole thing is just, like, an episode of every TV show I've ever seen.

Like.

Believe me, I wish I was better at the commercials. When I started in business, if you got a national commercial, it kept you alive for three years. I had one, a total serial one. It ran for four years. And those four years, I didn't have to, you know, wash dishes or wait on tables or do a bouncing at the bar. I could do plays where we didn't get paid.

And believe me, I did some of the worst plays you've ever.

So, OK, tell us that. How do you do a bad play? Like you all know it's bad.

How do you get on stage every night?

Well, what you learned. After doing enough of the bad ones is not to try to make it work. Just go with what's there. You know what I mean? A lot of young actors will overdo. it because it's so bad but like robert mitchum said when i get a bad script i say the lines faster let the audience figure it out you know so you i did a play once with moses gone And who was a great actor and a young actor named Morgan Freeman. This was in 76. It was so bad. It was a workshop at the public theater. Oh, no. On the dress, open dress, our friends left that intermission. That's how bad it was.

And when it was over, we were out in the street. It had to be midnight. And we're looking up at the theater and Morgan Freeman said, no. Maybe it'll burn. And I didn't see him. I don't really know him. But 30 years later, I'm doing a charity event. I'm talking with Christian Slater, who was working on a movie with Morgan Freeman. And there were a lot of celebrities around.

And Morgan came in and come running towards me. And I thought he was going to talk to Christian. And this is 30 years later. He walked over and goes, wasn't that the worst play in the world? so even the ones have, you know, a couple of stinkers in the past, you know, but you learn from it.

Yeah.

Wait. So the great actor, he was even back then he was children, electric company. And he was brilliant.

Um, have you ever been starstruck?

Uh, I, I don't know. I've been anxious. I wouldn't say start like Charles Durning knew George C. Scott very well. And, I didn't really, but I got to do two readings with him and it, you know, he was everything he was made out to be a very dedicated actor. And I found them one of the nicest people. And I remember saying to, uh, Charlie that, uh, you know, I heard rumors that he was so tough. And Charlie said, no, there's two George says the one who drank and the one who didn't drink said you never met George when he drank. Oh, Many years of his life he didn't write, but he was always kind to actors. He was tough on writers and producers and directors, but he was always very kind to actors. Always wanted to make, like Charlie,

always wanted to make it better. There's a bit here. We're missing something. We're missing. Let's find it.

You're in one of my favorite movies, Independence Day.

Yeah. See, a lot of people like that movie.

The only thing I.

Liked about that movie for me was I got to work with Robert Lozier.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, who was a good friend of Charlie Durning's. And I said on the set, you know, mentioned Charlie and we're talking and we called Charlie and he came over while we were shooting and we had lunch together. And again, I got to hear all the old stories of the plays they did together.

Oh, my God. I didn't know this guy's name. He's in everything.

Robert Loja?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Robert Loja.

Oh, yeah.

He was in like everything I watched growing up.

Yeah.

You should have seen him on stage, like Charlie Durning. As much as people love Charlie Durning, you know, from Tootsie or Best Little Horror House, on stage, he was something else. He was just the force on stage.

I was glad that they brought you in for the Goldbergs, because I feel like that was so heavily, you know, influenced by the Wonder Years.

Well, that was hard because he was sick at the time. So when you see close... But like on the Wonder Years, when you saw a close-up of me or Allie, the kids weren't there. Yeah. You know, you were talking to an ex or a stand-in. So when I did the Goldbergs, he was pretty sick at the time.

Yeah.

And a nice guy. And I said, no, he even asked me, are you mine, Dan? I said, nah, I've done this. As long as the check doesn't bounce, I'm fine.

Yeah, so you worked with a stand-in.

Because that's hard when you don't have, like you said, so much of acting is listening and your scene partner. And it's tough on sets when you are with a stand-in.

Yeah, well, when you work with the kids, you really don't have a choice. As a matter of fact, at one of the years, we would shoot a master, and then we would shoot Fred's close-up. And then he would go to school, and sometimes we'd go to another set-up. And then at the end of the day, they'd come back and shoot me and Allie. So you had to remember or write down his reactions when the kid did this or that so you could react appropriately and hope they cut into the right reaction.

If you were to come back to SVU, into the Dick Wolf universe, what kind of character would you like to play?

I would like to come back... as one of the judges and come in, you know, every.

Oh yeah.

You'd be a great judge. Hardcore.

Yeah.

Yeah. I was, I've always been surprised that they haven't asked me to do that, you know?

Well, we have someone on the inside. Hopefully she's listening.

Oh yeah. Yeah. That would, I would, I would enjoy that.

Yeah.

You would be a good judge, but then after like a season or two, there'd be a twist and you would, there would be some darkness within the judge.

Oh, that's okay. I wonder if, I wonder if they would allow, you know, originally, I think Dick would have allowed if you brought in a bit. And I would like to bring a judge who brings in some hard candies. When they object, I offer them a candy when they come up to the thing, you know.

Anybody want a Werther's? Yeah, that kind of thing.

Yeah, relax. Will you guys have a candy? Now, what's going on here?

Um, do you remember shooting this big scene at the beginning of this personal fouls episode where you're the coach where all these like NBA guys are there?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

That, of course we didn't shoot that first. We, as a matter of fact, I was the second to the last day.

Yeah.

I also really loved, I'm sure they edited it, but it's like photos of you with Manny Pacquiao and like, um, Arnold Schwarzenegger and stuff.

That was at a, there was a, A couple of pictures of me and some of the Packers, because I played Lombardi on Broadway. Those were real. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, my God. So the Packers ones were real?

Yes.

Cool. I thought they were all fake.

No, no. They'll throw in real ones if you have them. You know, if you've seen, I was in the service. So on the one of yours, you see me in a Marine uniform. That's me.

That's your real uniform. Wow.

So that was my only contribution to the one New Year's. Everybody asks, because I write, they ask, did you write anything? I said, no, I pitched an episode. We were going to shoot the next year, but we didn't realize we were going to be canceled. We were 26 out of 167 shows and we were canceled.

Oh, my God.

Can you even imagine a time? There's not 167 shows on primetime television.

30 million people watching.

Yeah.

Where were you canceled? But, uh, my only contribution is when I got the part, I was sitting there talking with Neil and Carol and they, they asked about how I saw the character. And I said, you know, if you could add anything and that I was a veteran and, uh, naturally I couldn't be a Vietnam veteran because, but they made me the Korean better. And that became, uh, An element in about six of the shows that became a very important thing.

Because the son is killed in Vietnam, right?

No, Winnie's brother.

Winnie's brother, that's right.

Who in real life, the kid who played him was Robert Mitchum's grandson.

Oh, look at that. Thank you so much.

Anytime.

This was awesome.

And your two SVUs are like classic, such good performances. We're like so happy you were able to do the podcast.

Yeah. Dick Wolf always made sure the scripts were good.

And it's been a while now.

It's like they've had enough break in between where people can see you as a new character.

So we got to get you back on SVU. Yeah, as a judge. The judge with the candy. I like this.

I'll send you to 10%. I want to go back as a judge and go on everything.

And in damage when you go to hell.

Yeah.

So good.

Yeah.

That's what Judith Light did. She went back as a judge.

Yes.

She was 11 months on stage with her and Lombardi. She's, and I worked with her.

She was in that with you.

Oh yeah. And we were on one life to live together and I played her pimp.

Oh my gosh.

No, that she got Lombardi because when they asked me for five names, literally the first, Three names I gave were Wendy Malick, Judith Light, and Jean Smart.

Whoa.

Wow.

He was so sweet and nice, and I truly was so scared of him growing up because he was like this emotionally distant dad on The Wonder Ears.

And I just was like, oh, my God, don't talk to him.

He'll die.

Well, I brought him up to my acting teacher and he was like, yeah, it's just like the old school guys, like that kind of generation of actors, like his love for the craft and the work and all of that.

It's just, I just like wonder if we're gonna have guys like that in like.

We do hello I can't believe you're even saying that to me it's in my face no but I'm just saying you don't think Connor you don't think Connor and Hudson have a love for filmmaking.

No no I'm they're massive stars.

No, but they want to direct and write. They make short films. Like, she knows about camera.

I'm sort of talking about, like, the journeyman actor.

Like, we're making it so hard for actors to, like, keep, like, You can barely get health insurance anymore. They keep raising the premiums. Like, no one's getting, like, all this shit becomes non-union. Like, I just wonder if people, like, will be able to sustain a light. Like, you don't get residuals anymore. Like, if you're on a hit show on Netflix, I don't even know if you get residuals. Whereas, like, Dan Luria was probably making good rent payments off of the Wonder, or mortgage payments off the Wonder Years for decades, you know? Like, because it was playing forever in rerun. Like, I just don't know if our system is like set up for these kind of like, and the kind of actor that we get on our podcast all the time

that are so cool to talk to. These guys that have been in every movie and been on every stage and worked with every other actor, but they've made a living. You might just not like know them specifically. or follow them on Instagram.

No, that's why it's like the rise of the Nepo. And I know Nepos have always been a part of our culture, but yeah, it's like you need to be richer and richer to do.

Yeah.

And the middle class is getting caught out of everything. Like this whole thing, I know this will be a little bit late once it's in the time machine, but obviously this Sebastian Maniscalco thing that all the comics are talking about where that he bought this radio channel on Sirius that used to play 800 comics, including a ton of like middle-class working comics. And now they've cut it down to 300 comics who are all famous, some dead, like Joan Rivers. who, like, comics who will not even notice the blip of a couple thousand dollars going into.

Their bank account once a month. I just don't get why he did it. I'm, like, so curious.

And I wonder if he feels watching all these videos from all these comics, like, oh, fuck, I fucked up, let me do something.

Or if he's like, these motherfuckers. Because I don't know him at all. I've never met him. Like, I am curious. But why would you, I just don't even get the point.

Like, you buy this channel and you're like, let's get rid of everyone I don't know or haven't heard of. Like, I don't get, because my album gets played on that. I make checks from that. Yeah.

So, like, I am, I'm just confused.

You also, like, he didn't blow up until way later in his comedy career, too. So, it's not like, he's not like Chappelle where he's, like, so distant from, like, who blew up at 22. Like, Sebastian was just a working comedian until, like, recent. So, I don't know why he would do this. I, like, don't get it. Yeah, it's like, is the channel struggling?

Like, will people only listen to it if it has like- But you still have to fill the time or maybe they don't have to pay him if it's just mostly his material and like he got a lump sum, like- I don't know, but I don't know why as a comedian you would, like, straight up just fuck over all these comedians' lives. And I remember this happened in Canada, like, seven or eight years ago because Steph Tolove was, like, staying with me when her roof caved in of her apartment.

Oh, my God. That girl. Yeah. And she was, like, raging about how.

raw dog in Canada, I think was taking off all like Howie Mandel bought it or something. I could be wrong about the details, but it was like someone bought it and they were taking off all the Canadian comics and they were going to add in like a ton of US comics. And she was like, no, it's like, it's supposed to be a Canadian comic radio show, like radio channel. And they fought about, they fought against it.

And I think they got it back. So hopefully- This works. I don't know.

Yeah, but Howie again, yeah, he was like famous since the 90s.

So he's so disconnected. I don't know. Maybe this connection happens quicker. I don't know.

Maybe Sebastian comes for money. I just like, it's just such a weird move to fuck up all these comics lives.

Like, I just don't get it.

Because getting like a random thousand dollars is nice.

Yeah, totally. Jared gets, Jared gets, they spin Jared's both of his albums. They don't do mine. I don't know why.

My album label is like, I don't know why. And I'm like, okay, it's not like it's dirty. But my album doesn't get played on there. So, but I'm supportive. I've obviously been reposting everybody's videos. I'm bummed about it happening.

I should have made a video, but I didn't. That's what I mean. It's okay.

Okay. it's just kind of humiliating I've never met the man what am I gonna do plead to this guy like I'm glad everyone else is cause but I.

Don't know but like yeah I just like it just feels like the middle class is like being cut out of everything everybody's gonna be either the top 1% or like the bottom 99 and that's kind of like.

Well my only thought is I guess we'll have worse problems like not having food or shelter to like worry if we're getting a part on a show but no it's a bummer yeah Yeah.

I just love all these guys that we get to talk to that have just been like working forever. And maybe people know them from like one big role they had, but then they're still doing. And he's, you know, it's freaky to see him in this because he's got this nice big smile and he seems like he could be kind of like a teddy bear of a guy, but he's like a pedophile molesting all these kids. And I couldn't believe how close to a real story this is.

Like that there's this actual real man out there doing that.

You can believe it.

I can.

I just couldn't believe it was so close.

Like, I'd seen this episode a couple times, and I was like, I never heard of that happening. And then it's like, oh, no, if you Google it, there's, like, a man that did exactly this in the city that you've lived in for a long time, you know? So not even somewhere— it' s not like it happened in Australia.

If you Google it, they will come.

Yes.

Yes. Yes. So, I don't know.

Post-mortem on this episode is like, go to all your kids' practices with them and never let them do travel sports.

I don't know.

I don't know what we come away with here.

It just sucks.

You know, it's always like so sad that they only go, they go after like the kids who don't have the best home life or like, you know, don't have like a certain parental figure or I don't know, that just are desperate to get out of their situation.

And they're like, That's my target. I just hate it.

And honestly, I also don't see a world where an athlete that famous would come forward about abuse. A male. Yeah. Because obviously, like, the U.S. women's gymnastics team.

And, like, women. And that's very hard.

But, like, I just don't even see a man kind of coming forward in that way.

I'm like, you're right. I'm like, has anyone ever? Just, like, checking.

No, I always feel grateful when we have guests on our podcast that kind of reveal and talk about their past with abuse.

Because it's, like, so hard.

And then you see what's happening to the Jane Doe right now at Cornell. And it's, like, trying to get dot people, like, ready to fucking tear her apart, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

So.

I can't, I can't even imagine.

I mean, there's obviously the kids that came forward about Sandusky, but like, yeah, like, but you're right. Like someone as big as like LeBron or like the guy in this episode, that's obviously where like the Hollywood.

With their own sneaker.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, let's move on to what would Sister Peg do? This is our weekly segment where we direct you towards an organization or an article or a book or a doc or something to give you more information about what we talked about. And today, I wanted to point you to the Rolling Stone article about the Riverside Church and the pedophile Ernest Lorch, uh, They did like a big expose called The Predator in the Church Basement, I believe.

And it's in Rolling Stone. And it was one of my sources for this. But if you want to read like a more in-depth, you know, journalistic deep dive into how this guy's crimes came to light, then head over to rollingstone.com. That will be linked in our show notes. And we link it in a story on our Instagram.

That's messeduppod. And all of our What Would Sister Peg Do? segments get saved in our WWSPD highlights over there on the Instagram.

Hell yeah. Thank you for that. And next week, Complicated.

Not the Avril Lavigne song.

I can't. I sing it every time.

I know.

I see it in my head.

Season 19, episode 5. It's a real barn burner. So stay tuned. See you next week. Bye. That's Messed Up is an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at thatsmesseduppod at gmail.com. Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the podcast on Instagram at thatsmesseduppod and follow us personally at Cara Clank and at Glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer, Casey O'Brien, and our associate producer, Christina Chamberlain.

And to our mixer, John Bradley, and our guest booker, Patrick Kottner.

And to Henry Kapurski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgareff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Dun, dun!

Personal Fouls w/ Dan Lauria

Kapitelklicken springt direkt hin

Shownotes

Transkriptvom Podcast bereitgestellt · Zeitmarken springen hin