The Long Arm of the Witness w/ Josh Stamberg

Of the Law & Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable. We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies these episodes are based on. These are our stories.

Dun dun!

Hello, this is That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

I'm Lisa Traeger.

And I'm Cara Clank. And you guys know the drill. It's recaps of SVU apps, deep dives into true crimes, interviews with fascinating people.

But first, we rail about the world at large.

And... We haven't chatted in a couple weeks because we were.

I know, let's get my notes out.

We were in deep time machine, I would say, which is when we have to take an extra week off because of travel or something. I sort of mentioned this to you yesterday, but I am sorry to all of the Tommies that I pushed aside. I didn't push you aside. I just said, yeah, yeah, I'll get to it when you recommended Furious. I finally watched Furious. I... like blazed through it. It's so good. I think it's like so fucking relevant for anyone that listens to our podcast because it doesn't do at all what SVU does. Like it literally shows you, I think how realistically this, this like violence against women, how we treat sex workers, how we treat women, how like, you know, so like in real life and how, you know, the whole system is super fucked,

but it's just, the acting is really good.

The writing is really good. I love the plot. I really, it's great.

Like, it's, without any spoilers, it's just basically, Emmy Rossum's an FBI agent and she's, like, she's looking for this killer who happens to also be a woman. And people, immediately my husband's like, isn't it just like Killing Eve? I'm like, no, it's not like Killing Eve at all. It's not like that at all. Just because it's like two main women are the main characters. Um, but, It's like, it's really good. It's like a perfect show for right now.

It's Liz Merriweather, who I guess did New Girl.

Oh, yeah.

What else did she just do that I watched? What did she do that I watched that was like a big... I worked with her husband. I remember that. Oh, really? Yeah, I did a pilot for him. They met on New Girl, which was cute. Yeah.

Dying for Sex.

Oh, and The Dropout.

It's just EP. Oh my God, crazy. Yeah, because I.

Didn't watch The Dropout, but everybody's talking about Elizabeth Holmes right now.

Wait, you should watch The Dropout. I know.

I started it when we were on tour.

I remember being like on tour, like. curling my hair for one of our shows watching the first episode. So I definitely started it. I'm struggling for sure. So I went to see a 10-15 showing.

Oh my God. So I, it was like late. And then my toilet's been clogged. It's a nightmare. I don't know. And like, I'm just stressed. But also, so I went to the movies and I couldn't wait to like, just gab after and have fun.

And I, you know, I always go to the movies alone.

Uh-huh.

And that's for a reason.

Yeah, what happened? And I went with someone who just, like, did it. Like, it's just had contrarian vibes. And I was just like, I finally was like, well, I'm going to go read things online, but, like, you're ruining my fun.

Wait, by the way, you haven't said it, but you're talking about You Can See Everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we're not going to talk about it till next week.

Because then there was all this stuff that she was saying, and I was like, what? And I realized, like, she had been inhaling all the media about it before she went, so I feel like... I'm trying not to.

And I didn't.

I go, I don't know what you're talking about, girl. I didn't look at one fucking thing. I feel like people are really keeping it.

I literally watched the trailer and was wrapped and was like, I'm seeing this shit the second it comes out, and I'm literally seeing it.

After I press stop on the recorder today. Oh, you're not gonna watch the dropout first. Um.

Well, I know a lot about her because I've read a lot about her and I was her for Halloween in 2019 at Quisala's Halloween party.

Yeah, I....

Everyone in my life was quiet about it. They didn't say a word.

Yeah.

No one.

Everyone's like, just go see it. Like, so I just, yeah. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

So I can't wait to talk about it.

Yeah, so I'll see it. We'll talk about it.

We'll weigh in on that next week. But I can't recommend Furious. I can't believe she did the dropout and Furious. I mean, this bitch is so good. And I think she developed this with Emmy Rossum. And I'll be honest, you know I'm not a shameless person. Not that I have anything against it. It never came into my orbit.

I never watched Shameless, so I don't really know Emmy Rossum very well. Like, I've known that she's a good singer, right? And that she's this actress everybody likes, but I never saw her in anything. I think she's really good in this, but as I.

I like that she's wearing her curly hair, too. That's, like, exciting. Yeah. Oh, her hair is, like, gorge in this show.

Even when she's, like, not showering and gross, I'm like, she's still... The hair looks great. But I have to say that I've discovered, and I don't know, it's not like I've discovered her because this woman who plays Nora Washington, the FBI supervisor of the sex crimes unit, is Quincy Tyler Bernstein. And I obviously have seen this woman because she was in Manchester by the Sea and all these other things. She was in three episodes of In Just Like That, which I only watched like a year ago.

This woman, like... is, like, shining in this role. Like, she is so... I can't wait.

I can't wait to see what she does, like, after the... She's in even an episode of Evil, which you know my favorite. Like, I'm sure, like, I've always been like, oh, yeah, she, like, this woman is good. Like, the way she plays this role, she's so fucking good. And I think that I heard a rumor that they're getting a second season of Furious.

So, I am pumped.

It's just so... It's very now. It's very like Epstein. Everything's like simmering underneath the surface of this show.

I can't wait.

Like Epstein, Cornell, like everything is.

You're going to love it. I can't wait. I finished the book, The Vegetarian, and I would say very of the times as well.

Yes.

I would say if you want to think of... Like it is so... I use the word biting too much with all these books, but I just like fucking loved it. Biting satire?

Or no, just biting.

It wasn't satire. I don't think it was satirical at all.

But I don't know.

I won the Nobel Prize. So like, this author did. But it's a Korean translation. And yeah, I fucking loved it. And I'm on to the new Switzy and McClain. So I'm in the thicks of that. Yeah, the vegetarian, I would suggest to everybody. It was fucked up. Okay.

Oh, wait.

Can I just say one quick thing? Yeah, of course. Speaking of.

Oh, yeah.

Are you eating meat?

No.

Did you do it?

No.

I haven't done it yet. It was a lapse in judgment. I would like to.

Thank all of the Tommies who sent me a bunch of protein tips. I have started drinking these, like, Fair Life protein shakes, and I'm... eating my protein bars and I'm just trying to mix in different ways of getting protein. And I'm getting labs done and I'm going to like, you know, I'm taking a step. I never said that the meat thing was definitely happening. I said I was thinking about it and I'm still thinking about it, but it hasn't happened yet.

But I did keep reading the book while I was eating animals at different restaurants.

And I did find that funny.

Like I was just like, the book said vegetarian, but I was eating salmon.

And so I did love that. But the phone addiction is huge.

I just saw a clip of Kate Berlant on Amy Poehler's podcast and she's like in technology, like 12-step program.

And she went.

Off social media for like six weeks.

And like, I'm thinking of the brick. Like, because I had.

A good handle on my phone for a while, but it's back in such full force. It's like aggressive as fuck. I thought the reading was kind of like tempering it. Well, no, I think what happened is I stopped watching TV.

Like, you know.

What I mean? But I was, I think summer, you're just like out and about. And I leave my phone at home when I do like quick things around the neighborhood. Wow. I like never do that. That's, I think that's even good.

I'm like, what if I need to find something?

Like, I don't know. I just never. Well, you know, I'm just, yeah, it's just like little errands and stuff. But It's just so much. It's like getting into the books. I mean, at the end of the day, the horny books are easier to read. That's going to be my December reward. So I'm educational until and I think the horny books are educational as well. But I would say I'm doing because I have one more book. I think I'm going to do just like novel, normal novels, normal novels, normal novels. And then as soon as Hawaii hits. That's going to be my hardcore holiday romance. I'm going to have just books on deck and I cannot wait. But those definitely flow easier. Yeah, for sure.

They're meant to be like sort of easier reading, I think.

Yeah, like you really just flow through them. And like, yeah, when I'm reading these books, it's like, it's definitely not the same vibe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm like getting a game of backgammon going here and there.

The vegetarian.

And so I do.

Watch a lot of people where it's like, fine, the genre, and just keep reading it. But I'm so interested in all these books. And I am amazed by certain people's sentences. You know what I mean? And I found the best highlighter I've ever had in my fucking life.

I don't have it next to me. Stay tuned for next week's intro.

I'll drop the highlighter news. But, like, this highlighter, I actually have to go to the store and buy them out. Like, I don't want to live without it. For highlighting in books? Like, your favorite passages? And sides, whatever you want. But it's double-sided. Oh, yeah. So it's like a highlighter vibe and then, like, a thin point.

But it's not.

It's like a muted, gorgeous green. In this... It is... It's just gorgeous. Just said it with a pen.

Like.

It's, and it's smooth and it's like, it's not that bright. It's not neon. Wow. It's not neon. Not assaulting on the eyes.

Yes. It's gorgeous.

And it just, ah, the way it flows on a, like, okay, highlighter influencer, let's get you out there. We need the name. Let's go.

Oh my God.

At home, I watched Russian dubbed Knives Out.

With my parents.

Oh my gosh. How was it?

It was incredible.

And my mom, she goes, I remember you telling me to watch this. And like, it is hard if English isn't your first language.

Right. Especially those movies.

It's all talking. It's all twisty. Yeah. So it was fun that we got to watch this movie I loved in Russian. It was like so fun. How did you get it dubbed in Russian? They only have Russian television. Oh, so it was just on. Yeah, there was like a list and the... Like. It wasn't Knives Out. You know, the words are sometimes different.

But I was like, that must be Knives Out. But I couldn't recognize the other titles. But I was like, we're watching it.

I was just talking to Aparna Nancherla about this last night. I'm obsessed with funny movie translation titles to other countries. Like, when I was in Italy, The Hangover is like, I'm with the crazy one. And Something's Gotta Give is anything can happen. Like, I just really love weirdly translated movie titles there.

Yeah, I didn't know that that was a thing I liked, but I liked that too. It was like fun, but I should have researched some more. But Knives Out is just such a talking movie. Yeah. It worked out so perfect. Yeah, it was really exciting. And speaking, well, Skokie, a woman at Old Orchard Mall, someone attempted to murder her. pushed her head under the fountain. Good Samaritans helped her. The guy's been arrested and there's like three charges on him.

Did he know her or was it a random attack?

For now, it's a random attack.

Oh my God. Yeah.

You can't drown someone in a mall fountain.

That's not gonna... No, because then I told my nephew, I was like, let's go to the mall. And he's like, I'm not going to the mall.

Yeah.

I'm not going to the mall. Oh, we did call my youngest nephew. So, like, we did it where my eldest called him. And you could tell he was, did I already say this on the pod?

Not yet.

And he, you could tell he was just waking up. And my nephew went, if you were in the group chat, what would you have done? And he went, I would have stopped it. And then Benji went, okay. And then he hung up.

Okay, wait.

Can I just tell you back to the book conversation? I was asked for the first time in my life to be part of an in conversation with an author who happens to be another mom in the kindergarten class.

I'm in the edge of my seat. What are the books?

Okay, so the book is called A Dangerous Beauty.

I'm in.

But it's nonfiction.

Okay.

Oh, no, I'm out. I'm out.

I know, I know. I was like, ugh, I'm catfishing her right now. But it's about this woman who had an affair.

The Kennedys and the mob?

Yes. It's about this woman named Judith Exner who had an affair with John F.

Kennedy and then was somehow.

like, connected to the Chicago mafia and the FBI and all this stuff. And she wrote it with this man who's been researching this woman forever, like, for three decades. Like, he met her before she passed away. And so she wrote this book. Her name is Trisha Aurand, and she wrote the book with this man, Mark Allen. It's called The Dangerous Beauty. So I have a copy of it on my nightstand. I have to read it in the next...

Like two and a half weeks. I think you can do it.

I can do it. I'm going to do it. It's just... It's so thick.

But then when you look at it, honestly, the last like fifth of it is just autobiography because it's, you know, nonfiction.

So I am going to read it.

And then.

And you never audio. Like, you would never.

I don't audio.

I did it one time to try to catch up on a book for book club, and I hated the guy's voice, like, so much. That's probably just a one-time experience. The Scott and.

Kip book of the Heated Rivalry series, people hate the audio so much, have bullied these people so much, they're re-recording with the person that they requested. Oh, my God. Like people are like, we hate this man and we need another cop. Like we need it. And they did it. I'm having issues and my doctor has suggested I not eat dairy for a week and see if things are better.

Oh my God. I know because you know how much I love. But look, the coffee is black. My coffee shop is so good. I actually like it.

Oh, wow.

Okay. That's fun. Yeah.

I mean, but I, you know, when I walk in, I don't really order anymore.

So I have to go.

You guys were doing something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Have you ever tried a little oat or almond, though?

It sickens me.

If you need it, that's gross.

It sickens me.

You know I don't drink coffee, so I don't fucking know what they all taste like. But I got a coconut yogurt, like, you know, coconut milk yogurt.

Delicious.

Oh, great.

Gorgeous. So that was pretty exciting. I mean, it's only been one day. Okay. Day one. Day one.

Today is day two.

But my first question, I was like, Regina George, the doctor, told me, and I went, Is butter dairy?

And she goes, you could have butter.

What's in these caltine bars? I do love, but like, also not of butter.

Is mayo dairy?

No.

Yeah, because there's, well, there's eggs. But that's not dairy. Yeah, no, milk is the thing. No one cares about eggs. The fact that eggs are part of dairy is, it's kind of saying a tomato is a fruit.

We all know what it is.

Right. A cucumber also a fruit, technically. Right.

It's so fucking annoying.

Wait, let me just say, though, that I'm doing this In Conversation With thing in LA at a bookstore called Sons and Daughters on Sunday, November 8th at 5 o'clock. So if any Tommies want to read the book and then come to the In Conversation, it could be fun. We're just going to talk about this book and about this woman who was banging JFK and also involved with the mob.

I mean, this feels like in our wheelhouse. So, yeah.

Well, okay.

All right. Okay. I'm going to get back into TV huge because Dexter's coming back. Wait, when, when, when?

Because I have a Paramount Plus subscription right now that I'm planning to cancel as soon as Dexter's over.

Dexter premieres October 30th.

Oh, so soon?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what about Yellow Jacket? Somebody messaged me. Yellow Jacket, the trailer just dropped. I think they're doing later November because they know people are going to get... Yes, November 20th.

Okay.

The services for it.

Seems like I've got the service for the next couple of months. And I have to get AMC Plus right now for Yaga. Oh, Yaga.

Yeah, I got to do Yaga.

But the press, I mean... I'm just in such a bubble because I bring up yoga all the time. And people are like, what are you talking about?

I'm like, hello.

I am fed yoga in a way where I am assuming the world is that like just at the edge of their seat. Yeah. But I'm just in a sick bubble. I'm like so embarrassing. So Jake Cornell was on Caleb Heron's podcast, which obviously to me is a Super Bowl kind of event. So, like, I was, you know, I watched it immediately, loved it, so funny. And then my, I have a favorite heated rivalry story meme account. And I don't know anything about this person. They're super private because they do fanfics. They don't want anyone to know who they are.

Uh-huh.

And so, so, like, they posted a funny clip of Jake on that podcast and said this is, like, so Shane Hollander posted it.

Or coded.

So I obviously lost my mind. And I sent, I was like, oh my God, these are my friends.

They were like, I know.

And then I sent it to Kayla. And I was like, I can't believe it.

And it is embarrassing.

It's just like my favorite meme account reposted a clip of two people I know.

Like this is just, this is like humiliating.

And then the Instagram account person was like, I don't think that he's, they're going to care. And I go, but they'll be happy for me. And Caleb's response was, I'm so happy for you, girl. Everyone just knew the realities of everything, but I needed it. And then Jake's like, what is going on? And it's like, you just have to let me have this. You just have to let me have this. Oh, you know how I saw Austin from Southern Charm at that baseball event I went to?

So then the next day I went to the Whitney Museum and it was the VIP opening day. of Roy Lichtenstein, Steen's event. And I met the nanny. I met Fran Drescher. She was there. You met the nanny.

And I, and then I, you know, I got flustered. I went, it's an honor.

And then I went, I'm actually, on a panel at the SAG-AFTRA offices tomorrow about Robin Williams. So I like brought up SAG immediately. Did she love it? She goes, oh, are they taping it? I mean, it was a blur. And I also like, I was with someone else. I was like, well, I humiliate it. That might be the only accent you can do. You actually have a pretty good Fran Drescher. That was pretty good. Oh, are they taping it?

That was good.

I'll practice it later. I can't do it again because I know I'll do it wrong. Oh, my God.

This is a huge moment for me. I put you on the spot.

I'm sorry.

That's so bad an impression. No, it was amazing.

So the person, Liza Banks, who brought me, she does like art tours of stuff. She does art stuff. So she knew a lot of the people at the Whitney event. And every single person I was introduced to was like, we're looking for the nanny. And then we were like, we met her. Like, I don't know how we were able to meet her. But we ran into like seven people that night that kept being like, we're looking for Fran.

Where's Fran? And I go, I bet she got the fuck out of there after meeting us. I mean, we were like starstruck, staring. I mean, I was just like, I couldn't believe it. I texted the family group chat immediately.

Like it, I.

yeah she's just everything to me and I loved the exhibit and this is how good it was the art was so good we missed the open bar downstairs because by the time we went to the bar they were closing why I bring any of this up is I went to Pastis it's right there afterwards Austin is there again with Sally and Rodrigo and I was a coward I didn't say anything but Rodrigo's arms he looked so good that a part of me was like maybe I could just go up to them and be like I'm sorry I've been looking at your arms you look incredible and for people that work out like that like that's like that would be great and then I was planning on maybe looking at Austin and Sally and going Wait, I think I saw you guys last night.

Like, who are you?

But obviously I just walked right past you. None of this happened. None of it happened. This was all in your mind. This was my plan that I chickened out on. And no one would care, but I don't know. It was just like a dream New York evening. I couldn't believe it. I really couldn't believe it. How exciting.

The art was so cool.

But then like all of these reviews have come out of the exhibition and like people are being rude about it.

People don't love it. I loved it. Oh my God.

Yeah.

Casey's uncle. Okay.

Like process journals. Like, references, his sketches. Like, I was so into it. I mean, art is subjective, right? Like, I don't know. Also, for a lot of people, it was like, yeah, been there, done that, lost its charm. It's like, I've never been a fan. So, like, I always kind of brushed him to the side in my mind.

And then being there, it's like, oh, the way he made dots changed over time. The references, what he could do, what he was trying to do. Seeing the colored pencils before he did it.

I loved it.

And they had a terrorist giant recreations of certain things that had been destroyed. They had pieces that hadn't been seen outside of a private collection in decades. That's cool. I was feeling energized. Gagged. I mean, that's like the whole freaking point of art. Oh my God, the craziest thing happened to me. I know we have to go. Okay.

Oh my God. What are we at? 40, Casey?

What are we at? I know. I have to save it for next week, but like, I went to the Jacob Tierney fucking book event moderated by Andrew Rannells.

Yes.

We're obviously, we're saving that. Girls reboot. Like, stick an IV in me. Like, I cannot. I am, I, what have we done to deserve this? Like, I am, and I trust her. I trust, I trust her. She knows these girls. I think we're going to get a great five episodes.

Hopefully she knows that we fucking hated the way it ended and that we can, and we get something good.

I really, the finale. I wish you didn't bring that up. I was really on a high.

I'm sorry.

No, listen.

Then we hated the way Dexter ended. Dexter had a horrible finale. And then they came back and gave us a whole new fucking series that's even almost better than the original.

Like, don't worry. I'm not worried. I think this is going to be good.

I think it's going to be good. I like that.

I think they're going to be upstate, which makes sense. Like, everything kind of makes sense. But I have to save the Jacob Tierney event thing. Oh, my God. Yeah, I have to. But I have to do this. So then I go to the SAG-AFTRA panel. And it doesn't matter. Like, we have a fun panel. So then the White Sox are playing. It was very exciting. Obviously, they're out.

Yeah.

So are the Dodgers. Yeah, but they can take a break. It's a little different.

The White Sox was a little, no, the White Sox was like a little engine that could story, but then so.

Was the- And these Cleveland motherfuckers. Oh, we're from the Midwest. The messages and bananas behavior I got from Cleveland fans.

I'm rooting for the Brewers. The Brewers.

This has become a sports podcast. This is one of the craziest things that's ever happened in my life. So, Devin Walker is also at the... And my manager, Brittany. And there's a bar next door. So, we're like, let's all get a drink. And then we're at 54, so Midtown.

It's like not a cool bar in any capacity.

It is what it is.

We're in Midtown.

So they put the White Sox on a little screen for me.

They leave.

Some of Brittany's friends come watching the game. Hours go by. I'm drinking for hours at this point. You actually didn't need to know the names of any of these people.

I don't know why.

Like, it doesn't matter.

I'm with people.

Yeah.

I like the contact. I know you do.

We know, Casey. It's obviously going long. I'm humiliated. Okay.

So, but this is crazy. You're going to understand why I have to talk to him about this. So, it's the ninth inning. A girl comes in from outside. And you know I have, like, age blindness. Like, I don't know how old anyone is really, like, ever. Or people ask me. Like, I have no idea. So, a woman comes up to me and she goes, hey, so my friend really wants to talk to you, but he's disabled.

Will you go outside and talk to him? And I go, for sure, but it's the bottom of the ninth. So like, I'm just gonna watch this. And she goes, you don't like disabled people? I go, no, I didn't say that. I'm fine with disabled people. And then my friend was like, I like that you said you're fine with them.

Just fine. So, you know, I'm fine.

I'm like, I swear, like, I see your friend, like, I'll go talk to him. I go, I just want to finish this game. It's my team.

So, it stretches out a little longer. She comes in.

She goes, listen, his wheelchair can't fit in here. Like, which, there's no way that, like, that's real. And that's, like, against ADA compliance. Yeah, like, that's not real. This isn't, like, a legacy bar. This isn't, like, So I go, girl, like, give me a second. My team's just losing, whatever. So then I go outside and it's like, there's tech vests, Eastern Europeans to the right of me. And then these people, and then I noticed they're all in Palantir hats. Oh my God. So they're all in Palantir baseball caps with like another word.

I go, oh, you're all from Palantir?

And they're like, no, it's this other part of Palantir where we do good because they feel bad. And then I realize they're all hammered. And I go, listen, I hate Palantir. I don't really know. Then they're offering me cigarettes and I'm like, I don't smoke. Like, I don't know. So then they're trying to, then he says something and the girl with him goes, God, you always say stuff to scare the hoes. And I went, what? So then I'm standing there. I go, more conversation happens. And then I finally, I'm like, uh, and then they go, well, you just sit on his lap and then you'll take a photo with him in the hat. And I go, no, I don't want to do that. And I don't like Palantir.

And they're like, fine, he'll take the hat off. Just sit on him and we'll take a photo. And I go, I think I have to go inside, guys. So then I go inside. I go, that was crazy. And everyone I'm with is like, why would you do this? I go, I think they're really young and drunk.

And they go, yeah.

They're like, and they were all there for a conference, like a work conference. They don't live here. They're all Palantir people. And like, it was just. It was kind of crazy.

It was one of the craziest things.

That happened to me.

I mean, you could have just been like taking a photo. Like you didn't have to sit on someone's lap.

No, my friends were like, I can't even believe you were that nice. They're like, we would have never been that nice. And then I called Sydney Washington and I walk home from the train and she goes, knowing me, I'd probably sit on their lap.

I go, you would have.

She goes, you would have. Like, I was too nice for the people I was with, and then she would have totally sat on my fucking lap. That's a fucking trap, Lisa. That's a fucking trap for, like, one day, like, them to publicize. Lisa Prager is a Palantir enthusiast.

I just, on my other podcast, Dark Sided, over on LPN, everybody, give it a listen. I just did a deep dive on flock cameras, and Peter Thiel is obviously behind those. And he's a fuck, and he's the creator of Palantir, fucking guy who killed Gawker, and we can fuck everything he ever does. But let me say this before we end.

I did like- Was it worth me stretching this so long? Yeah, that was a crazy story. I really liked to hear that. Like, I liked it and I think it was worth it. And then everyone is like, find something else to cut.

Well, they're like, why did you even go out there? I'm like, I just try to be open to the possibilities of the world.

Like, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm like, yeah, I'll talk to this guy in a wheelchair.

But it was just like, I can't believe, I don't know.

It was, yeah, shocking. But we have, we got it. We do have to start.

Yeah, we have to start. Let me just make a couple of announcements. Go to thatsmustuplive.com where you can... find ticket links to our January shows in Washington, D.C.

And in Brooklyn. Our live shows are so fun. Come see us.

And then there is a end of the year, exactly right, merch sale happening. And it's happening a little bit earlier than the very end of the year. It's going to be November 19th through 30th. And you can use the code GOODBYE2026 for 30 30% off and even more discounts in the last chance section. All the inventories mark down 30%.

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We've got a lot of fun stuff, fun interviews.

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But okay, now before Casey's actual head pops off, let's start the episode.

Okay, so what is crazy is we planned to do this episode months ago. We always do things in advance. We interviewed someone from the episode. It got rescheduled for, you know, and then it got moved.

And then the Cornell case kind of blew up.

And I just can't believe that it's timed in this way. And I do want people to know it was not an intentional thing. I know.

And then also like some people that are kind of like going back and listening to old episodes are like, oh my gosh, this episode consent is just like, What's happening now? And I'm like, yeah, so is rape interrupted. It's just that it keeps happening and it's been happening. The SVU keeps covering it, you know?

But this one is insane. And then you'll see in the interview when we meet our guest, it's like the week of the case.

Like, it really.

It is nuts. We don't time this stuff, but some of it comes out so crazy. But this happens often.

Yeah.

This happens often.

I was just talking to someone else about how, like, sometimes with our timing, it just works. I don't know. Somebody you covered.

in an episode that we just did a few weeks ago, like.

Just died. Like, Dennis Hastert or somebody. Like, you know what I mean? Or, like, the art case and then the painting.

Yes!

I mean, we're witches. I don't know what to say.

We're doing something. It is really crazy.

We're conjuring. And it is really upsetting, because my feed online is so much about the case. That it's actually making me not want to be on Instagram because I'm like, I cannot handle it. We're getting enough of this.

Yeah.

I don't know. I just am, like, shocked. And we'll go over this in the episode so we don't have to, like, harp on it. But I'm just shocked that it's the same... excuses and same opinions over and over and none of them are valid or make sense to me. I actually was with a guy this week and he was like, well, the gray area. I go, the gray area doesn't even exist.

that is a tool of the patriarchy to make all of you feel better because you're all rapists. Because the gray area does not exist. If it's not enthusiastic consent, you're a rapist. And that's why you keep trying to find ways to discredit victims when none of the ways even make sense. You could get drunk or want a threesome and still be gang raped and unconscious. Like, None of the reasonings ever make sense. None of their stretches of the imagination.

Well, what about this? What about like gray is not real. It just isn't.

Yeah. That needs that needs to be the new kind of say like there is no gray area. It is the foundation of how sex is taught. It's about how men view women as not people, but a means to an end. And a thing to get from a woman. Like, it is all your beliefs about stuff. But, like, the next person that says gray area to me, I'm going.

To punch them in the face and go, oh, I thought you wanted it.

Yeah.

My bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought that's what you meant by that. Like, I just, I've been, yeah.

But.

I mean, part of it is like that we teach like the youth, not even directly, but indirectly like, oh, it's sex is awkward. There's all this awkwardness at the beginning so that if a girl is like lying there still and silent, you're like, this is part of the awkwardness.

You're like, no, no, no, no. Enthusiastic consent.

You will know when someone is not enjoying themselves or not wanting to happen what's happening.

And it should matter, but it's like, it's so not a part of so many people's like sexual experiences or thoughts on what sexual experiences should look like. I don't know.

I did text my niece.

I go, oh my God, is our nephew just, what do you feel about him being in the frat? I go, what do you feel about the frat? And she goes, I think he's in his final form.

I texted my brother who was really big into his fraternity at his school in the South where I visited him and went to like one of their parties. And I was like, have you been reading about this?

What are your thoughts?

Like, I'm sort of getting to the point where I'm like abolish all frats. And he's like, yeah, like all the guys I met in my frat were like the greatest guys.

I could never have seen any of them doing anything like this.

And I go, well, I know you would have stopped something like this if it ever happened. And he was like, yeah, totally. I mean, like I, he's like, I felt like I really grew up when I joined my frat. Like I met all these guys and we like, you know, we were really, we prided ourselves on being good guys. And I was like, hmm, okay, okay. I mean, I know my brother's a good guy, but because he's the sweetest person, like, wouldn't hurt a fly. And, like, when we talk shit as a family, he's like, you guys, you know, he's, like, not even good at talking shit like.

The rest of us. But... But none of those things actually matter.

I'm like, I just can't trust that even the nicest guys, I just can't even trust it.

No, I would trust them the least. JK, but....

He definitely, I mean, he, like, he was like, I need to read about it. I've been off of social media. So he's going to read about it and then he's visiting.

But that's what's crazy. That's, that is what's crazy to me too. It's kind of how I feel when I bring up Gisele Pelicote to men and they have no idea what I'm talking about. And it's like, how do you not, how are you, how, How lucky for you to get to avoid it.

Yeah.

How lucky for you to, oh, I guess I'll go read up on this that's like triggering millions of women all across the country.

I'm the sister that's like, time for you to get your hands dirty.

Go read it. But I think all frats should be involved. Like, I don't get it. I don't get it.

All of it.

Yeah, it's like, I keep thinking about what you told your mom.

The black ones can say.

I keep thinking about what you told your mom when she was like, what's a fraternity? And you were like, it's so he can get a job after college. Like, that is, I think, what they chalk it up to. It's like, oh, it's brotherhood.

And it's like, you know, this and that.

I'm not even saying sororities are, like, much better. And I come from an all-girls summer camp where I do believe in, like, the separation of the sexes sometimes can be really, like, can be really, like, enriching for people, especially young people.

There's one guy I've been, like, texting with for, like, one of our, like, a month or so, and it was about Lindsay Clancy, and then it became about race stuff, and now we're here, and like, we're just talking about a lot of stuff.

And he's like, I just don't believe these are monsters.

And I go, and that's where we will always differ, because to me, men are rapists until proven otherwise. And he doesn't understand how I kind of live my life like that.

And I do have guy friends.

I have my nephew, you know, like, and anytime I talk about chemical castration, he goes, even for your nephews, I go, I guess I'll risk that too for the greater good.

I don't know. Like, I don't know.

It is more complicated than that and nuanced and I get it. But he just keeps being like, you think these people are monsters and they're not. It's everyone thinks they're a good guy or doing their, but I'm like, but those people in that group chat are monsters to me. Like, I don't see goodness in any, like they saw those messages, reading them are crazy. Like, that's why I don't get the people that are like, but actually this and actually that and this. And it's like, how do you feel that after reading the Snapchat? Like, I don't understand that.

how are they not monsters?

Like, he's just saying.

I think some people are just, like, equating it to, like, regular Bob mentality. Like, I've seen a group of people standing around on the sidewalk watching someone beat the shit out of an unhoused person and nobody's doing anything, you know? Like, I've seen people standing around and, like, I mean, I know we've sort of disproven Kitty Genovese, but, like, bystander effect or, like, the episode that we did a few weeks ago, Spectacle, where all these kids saw this thing happening and not one of them called the police because they all thought someone else was doing it. I think that you're right though, there's something about, you don't interfere in like maybe somebody beating somebody else up because you

feel for your own physical safety, right? But like, you couldn't, nobody could have called somebody Like nobody from that chat could have called somebody, anonymously.

Even, and gone, this is this fucked up thing that's happening.

I think there is, I think that's what fraternities do is build group mob mentality. They build like a mob mentality thing that's like, don't fuck with the older brothers. There's a hierarchy, you know, like, that's what's, like, chilling to me.

You know? Yeah, and Rita Calhoun is a real menace in this one.

So get ready.

We'll just get into it. Sorry, everybody.

If you're Rita Calhoun, a stan, you're not going to love what's happening in this episode.

Yeah, I, um.

It's scary because... And then I'll start, but it's also this thing where, like, these girls that are reporting, they are saying it. And then to be, like, fully... No, I mean, I don't know about these men.

My social feed is like a full Me Too part two. You know, like, I'm just getting everybody's essay story. Like, it's really, really tough. People that I know, people that I don't know.

And we'll talk about it in the episode. It's also this thing of, like, we refuse... To allow a victim time to understand what happened.

I know.

Figure it out. If you don't go straight to the cops from the site of your attack. With absolute, like, if you're not like, wait, but my friend wouldn't do that to me.

Did I want it?

Did I not? Like, questioning reality, having fears of saying something, feeling embarrassed, feeling fault, like you shouldn't have gone to that house. Like, I just, like, I don't know... Why we give, like, zero understanding to the reporting process, to the PTSD, to people's lives. Like, I really just struggle understanding the nitpick.

And we're part of the— like, it's cultural.

Yeah. Yeah. But I have such a hard time understanding.

The lack of, like, understanding.

I don't know.

Yeah.

And how much we excuse and figure out what the guys must have thought. I mean, I don't know.

Okay, we're in court.

We're in court. And this came out in 2021. So this episode's season 22. We're in court. Elizabeth Marvel, a.k.a. Rita Calhoun, a.k.a. the female Buchanan. How do you feel about that? Yeah.

Yeah, after this episode, that's totally right on.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

So there's a cow on the crest behind the judge. So immediately we know we're somewhere else. And it's Suffolk County Criminal Court. So shout out to the art department there. Oh, and if you hear squeaking and it's not edited out, it is my chair and.

It will be here for the rest of.

Time.

So I don't know what to do.

I'm shift. Oh, I got to get oil. That's what we discussed. I'm the tin man. WD-40. So she's trying to smack a man away on a dance floor. By she, I mean the girl on the stand. She's talking about it. She's being shamed for having a vodka soda in the other hand. We're not allowed to drink. She's being shamed for drinking and then asking for a ride home after being groped, so she should have been stuck at this place.

Hard to watch.

The judge is hot, Josh Sandberg. And he works, guys. You can check out his IMDb. And we see the rapist, and he has boy band hair but an alien face. And he didn't take her home. So she's like, can you take me home? Instead of driving her home, he drives her to his parents' house in West Hampton. She is then being blamed because she fell asleep in the car and didn't tell him to turn around. And again, yeah, I think I'm going to repeat myself a lot in this episode. But like, why are we diminishing and questioning all these things? Like, it's not logical that you might fall asleep if you're drunk in a long car ride.

You know what I mean?

Like, how is falling asleep mean you want to get raped?

Like, I actually don't get it.

Like, I would love someone to explain their logic to me with this kind of reasoning. Okay, so then, what? Oh, I don't have any reasoning.

I just think it's like, They're going to just like come to something that you did wrong. Yeah, you fell asleep in the car. Of course, that doesn't mean you want to get raped. Why did you get drunk? Why did you get drunk in the first place? Why didn't you have Uber? Why didn't you have an idea? They just like the psycho, like right wing ladies that are all over. Megyn Kelly is online talking about how, why didn't this girl go? She doesn't believe her because of how long it took her to go to authorities or whatever.

Megyn Kelly did not come out about her own sexual harassment by Roger Ailes for months and months, maybe even years.

Before it happened.

She herself did not immediately report something and then is on using her platform to go not immediately reporting something means you're lying. I just don't, yeah, there's, there's a cognitive dissonance. And has anyone brought that up to her?

Oh yeah. It's like all over.

I'm like, I don't know if she's reading memes, but like it's all over the internet where people are like, you did not go right to the, what?

So then Rita's like, oh, but then you walked into the house. So then what? So whatever. So she's crying on the stand. And she didn't even realize it was rape until two months later. And again, she's being tortured on the stand because of it, fully crying. Why would she do all this for a lie? That's another thing.

Why would she do all this? Do you think she wants to cry on the stand for a fun time? So then the judge is finally putting Rita in her place and is like, stop it. You're on thin ice. And then the rapist and the dad kind of nod at each other. And then Finn and Tamina and Rollins are at the precinct talking about the case. And I guess they let Suffolk County take the case first because it did happen in multiple jurisdictions. And Carisi will be able to try it again, too. Benson's now on the stand explaining how normal it is to wait two months to disclose.

And then Manhattan didn't.

Take the case, Rita asked, because the punishment is harsher in Suffolk County. And Rita thinks it's because Carisi doesn't have enough evidence in.

New York City. Objection withdrawn.

And now Rita wants full dismissal because the prosecution didn't make a case. He cuts her off and he's like, I'll consider it. Valentina, who's the victim, and her mom, Carisi and Benson, are talking out in the hallway. And the judge wants the people back in immediately. The judge goes, you know what, he said she said cases. But it's like, but why didn't he drive her home? Why didn't he wake her up? Like, why are those things not talked about?

Yeah.

You took her from the city to West Hampton.

What is that, a two-hour drive?

But he goes, but with these cases, there's always reasonable doubt. And he goes, this man is an exemplary person, and she's a binge-drinking embarrassment.

Yeah.

And he's not going to let the court ruin the rapist's future and doesn't charge him and everything is dismissed. Benson and Carisi are fuming. The rapist thanks the judge. Valentina is so stressed, cries into her mother. Rita says, tough loss, but I had home court advantage. Carisi and Benson are really confused by the comment. And she explains, he wasn't even supposed to have this case. He wanted it.

He wanted to stir up his base and launch his political career. And then he's, the judge is chatting like nothing, nothing happened. And then Rollins is watching on the laptop while everyone else is in the office is watching it on the big screen, which is, I don't know why they're watching it on multiple screens. But he says the Me Too, he's doing like a press conference, and he's like, the Me Too pendulum has swung too far. We gotta protect our sons. And it Cat to mean fuming. Oh, he doesn't care about the daughters? And oh, look, he went to rape university, a.k.a. Hudson, for undergrad, and then Harvard.

They're going through his history, and wildly, when he started his law career, he had very high-profile rape convictions, but those are only for Black and Latino defendants.

But also, they really set.

This episode up incredible because the judge is not easy on Rita Calhoun. He makes it seem like he will kind of be strict, you know?

Um.

We just know more because we've watched this episode four times at least. But to have heavy rape convictions for only Black and Latino defendants. Declined to prosecute a white college male. Finn says the old boy network is strong out east. Tamin chimes in and so is the corruption. And it's like, well, that's what Finn meant. Tom Burns is spearheading his campaign and it's... So, and it's Ian Hunter's maternal uncle. So the rapist's uncle is like the campaign manager for Tom Burns.

No, Tom Burns is the campaign manager. The rapist's uncle is the campaign manager for the judge who's about to start a political campaign. So he should have recused himself immediately. No, he asked for the case.

Yes. It wasn't even his.

Yeah, that's so fucking glad handy. Yeah.

What's glad-handing?

Like glad-handing. You know, like.

Isn't glad-handing like shaking, doing deals for each other behind each other's backs?

Or behind, like, you know, against the rules? I'm sure.

No, I'm sure it's an East Coast thing.

Yeah. I don't know about this.

Well, actually, glad-handing is acting overly friendly to unfamiliar people or strangers to gain advantage or win approval.

So that's not what I meant. I guess I meant more like it's just... good old boy.

Yeah, it's like just fucking.

I don't know.

Done, done.

Deals, deals, deals.

Yeah.

Deals, deals, deals. And we're at the credits. Okay.

Do you maybe mean like greasing palms? Like palm greasing?

Kind of, yeah, palm greasing. Yeah, yeah, that's probably what I meant. Yeah, palm greasing, glad handing. Palm greasing, it's all political. So, yeah, declined to prosecute. Okay, yeah, I wrote down done. That must mean credits. That has to mean we're going to the credits. But anyway, and so this motherfucker was at the trial every day. The fix was in from before court started. So that's what sucks, too.

It's like this girl's actual life and rape case was all planned and orchestrated for this person's career.

Again, they don't see women as people.

So, yeah.

There was no murderer you could bust to be like, I'm tough on crime, you know?

No.

Like you couldn't have been given a murderer, like a heavy sentence, but instead you're like, no, you know what's the biggest threat to us?

The Me Too movement.

Yeah.

Because they're rapists. And that's what the guys in my life that I've been chatting with, they just don't or can't hear it. But it's like, you are. Because why else would you relate so much to these guys? Why would you have so much empathy for these rapists if you didn't relate to them? Okay. Carisi wants to appeal, but Valentina just does not want to go through another trial.

But Carisi is like, if we can prove that he is a shady fucker, maybe we can get some stuff overturned. Rollins says they've actually all known each other for like 30 years. They met at Hudson U, the campaign manager and the rape judge, whatever, these guys, the good old boys, the grease palmers. They met in the 90s, and Carisi might know somebody that went to school with them. So he goes to Isaiah Holmes' office, a.k.a. Wentworth Miller, a.k.a.

Prison Break, a.k.a. right now he's working at the Civil Rights Unit as an ADA. Benson and Carisi go to chat with him, big office, he's hot. They want to gossip about Gallagher. And, you know, like Isaiah's like, I wish I could fucking unremember him. And he worked in the frat kitchen. And he says that Gallagher never bust a tray once. And now he's running for attorney general.

I mean, that's that's so telling. I mean, this show is so good with their like details of like you have people that don't even experience real life being in charge of people's lives.

And he knows the uncle too.

And Benson is like, can we prove there's been bribes or something? And he goes, oh, they've been covering for each other for years. And they're like, for what?

Tell us.

And he's like, we need to get this out there. He cannot be AG. He remembers a sweet, brilliant girl that was so brutalized by Gallagher. She dropped out of Hudson and it has haunted him because he didn't help her. And Benson goes, he raped her. And he adds, while the uncle held her down. And she reported it, but it got buried. And so we go visit her. And April says, nobody cared, not even Isaiah Holmes. And she's like, I don't blame him. You know, we were both on scholarship.

So then Gallagher invited like April and her friend from Sunset Park to a frat party. And, you know, it's like he was interested in her, but it was a setup from the start.

She only had one glass of punch.

She woke up with him on top of her and Tommy Burns laughing and holding her down. And then the campus cops interviewed her and the rapist, but they told her to not let one drunken night cloud her whole college experience. And it's like, she would love that.

It's, I don't know.

Because I also do believe that young boys are abused at.

Really high rates.

And I don't understand, like, I wonder if men aren't acknowledging their abuse. They don't want to talk about it because they're also not handling it. Or like, what is that? Like, they don't see the symptoms of their own abuse. Like, because I know that all children are molested, you know? And so, like, then I don't understand the lack of understanding.

I think they still.

Connect more with the rapists and abusers than they do with their own abuse as children or something.

I don't know.

And maybe I'm misguided here and there's, like, a difference.

But it's, like, I do believe that. Yeah, I mean, there's compartmentalization. People put it away. They try to forget about it.

They.

want to be the aggressor so that they're not the victim. I mean, I'm sure there's, like, a billion different reasons behind all that.

Yeah.

That's what I'm trying to, like, figure out in my brain right now. Like, how do they not believe it when they know it's happening and probably might happen to them as kids? Or knew it. I don't know.

Um, she didn't, she, okay.

So April never went to the cops and then the guys controlled the narrative and she realized she would never make it in their world. Benson explains how her case is like past the statute of limitations, but usually when one person steps forward, you know, before she can even finish her sentence though, the woman goes, well, it's not going to be me. I'm not, you know, I'm not going up against this. Um, they're going to destroy me and I want to get back to work. So Benson and Rollins are walking outside. They put their masks on outside and, The COVID era of this show is a blessing and a curse. But we go to visit the Hudson president, and she's a woman, and she's like, oh, I'm obsessed with Gallagher. He teaches here to have someone

that amazing. You know, we think the world of him. Benson looks out the window, and there is a protest, though, of all these students, and Benson goes, well, it seems like a bunch of your students fucking hate it. And she goes, well, yeah, the last ruling was definitely very upsetting for everyone here. She does wish that the Manhattan DA took the case. Benson's like, yeah, not on me, but, you know, pass my pay grade.

They love to say that. Benson wants scoop.

On him, but the president's not giving it up too easily. And basically Benson's like, everything you're saying is about him being a professor. Like, I want to know about him as a student. She's like, I'll look into it. Benson thanks her for her effort. Finn and Tameen are waiting for her outside on this fall crisp looking day.

Protesters everywhere.

And then Finn sees a campus cop. So he's like, and I'll go connect. He's bonding with him. He's like, oh, I love my fucking job. All three of my kids got free tuition here. And one of them's actually at the protest against the judge right now. And Finn explains why they're there. And he does remember the Gallagher stuff for students. It was his first year working there, but he doesn't want to talk about it. Finn goes, that's fine.

But do you have any of your old memo books? Have you saved your memo books? He says he can't help. He has to drive his daughter home. And Finn goes, no, I understand. Drive her home. You can never be too safe. So now he's trying to kind of connect on this daughter situation. And he wishes that he could have been more help. And Finn gives him his card as the security dude's daughter approaches. She says hello, officer, to him.

And so now we're in Garland's office. And he's saying it's an overreach, like not interested in this. Carisi is like, he is a predator. Gallagher bursts into the meeting. Holy shit. And he's like, wow, okay, so these are my accusers. Then calls Wentworth, a.k.a. Isaiah, a busboy. Like, that's rude. And then... Like, that it's bad to be a busboy.

You know, like, we just learned so much about this guy. This performance is incredible. No, he's obviously saying it in a demeaning way.

No, of course. Like, I just... The characterization.

Like, everything in this episode is done so well and makes me feel everything that the writer wanted me to feel. And the actors are, like, portraying it perfectly. It's a very well-done episode.

And.

And everyone's like, leave me alone. And he goes, what, you want revenge because you lost your case? And then any woman could just say whatever she wants nowadays. And it's like, well, yeah, that is freedom of speech. And he's like, this is political. Benson goes, well, if that's the case, then we'll find that out. And, you know, that'll be fine. And he goes, is that before or after your true goal of tarring and feathering me? And Garland chuckles and goes, that's not what this is. Dramatic music, you know, it's a standoff. And We're, you know, whatever.

So now Finn is meeting the security guy at a bus stop and it's really like spy thriller movie at park bench in the dark.

Everyone's wearing a beanie.

And so the security guy called him and he goes, it wasn't my idea. So the daughter obviously convinced him to get involved and help, but he has kept his old memo books. He found the two other of the judge's victims and he says, you didn't find this for me. And Finn says, understood, walks off. So now we have memos and more victims. Like, let's fucking get this guy.

So we go find the women. And she is now with Ben and Benson and Woodroom Blinds. And she's like, I'm shocked you found me. Hudson treated me like toxic waste. She says nobody cared when I came forward. And she remembers every detail. Chip Gallagher assaulted me. And I hate that his nickname is Chip because my Chip is the little teacup from Beauty and the Beast. And I don't like him kind of muddying the name. Yes. And she passed out at a party. This man is not a cute teacup. No. He is just the cutest little teacup.

And his voice, like it's so cute. But I love the.

memes where it's like, what about all these other kids you have in the drawer?

Yeah.

Really not nice to any of these other teacups.

The rest of the set.

She passed out at a party.

And then when she woke up, his dick was in her hand and everyone was laughing all around her. And she reported him the next day, took statements from everyone in the room, Chips pals and my so-called friends, she says.

They all backed him.

April reached out after and it helped her not feel crazy like they had each other in this experience. But again, they can't prosecute. It's been too long, but it is an open investigation. And she's like, these guys have been above the law for so long. Nothing touches them. We find another woman. It's a daytime walk and talk. So it's Rollins and Tameen. She couldn't believe she was invited to like a Hamptons party. It was so exciting for her.

She had some drinks. And then she woke up naked on a boat with Chip. She was scared and begging for, um, to be taken, you know, back. And he goes, you have two choices, hump or jump. And she couldn't swim. But also it's like nighttime in the ocean.

Like, even if you could swim.

I don't think you're jumping into the fucking ocean.

Yeah, it's not really an option. There's sharks.

It's not an option. Like, you know, but that's another way of her, you know, if only I could swim. But, you know, it was over fast, she says. Hudson Hughes said it was a campus matter and she was on financial aid, so she listened. And now she's been a court reporter. It's been 15 years and she has taken the testimony of every scumbag they make. And her dream is someone else typing while she testifies against him. So now it's corkboard time. And all this is good, but, you know, can't prosecute any of them. We need to find a case that fits the statute. Tamina's like, well, he only picked women from lower classes. So, like, we need to find these low-class women. But she's... That made me laugh, but that's not how it was. That's not

the vibe of this conversation. So, um... But so now we're like back on the TV and Elizabeth, you know, Rita Calhoun's defending him. And this is nuts. And, you know, Gallagher's behind her. And then there's 10 female lawyers, clerks, students who've all been mentored by him defending him.

They say he's amazing.

Again, your experience with a person does not equate how they're like, they're not. Again, like that's the thing. I mean, most right wing stuff is, but this isn't even right wing.

Right.

So that doesn't make sense. But it's like, that's what I mean. Like, none of the reasonings or explainings away make sense to me. Yeah. It's just like not logical to me. He doesn't see gender, race, or creed, he says. And Tamina's like, well, I do. All these women standing up for him are white and rich. And Benson goes, yep, and I bet they owe him favors. And we've seen this move before. And Finn goes, we need to find women that he's mentored and worked with that did not sign the statement and aren't doing this little press thing.

So we find a young Black woman, and she is at a law offices of Winston and Knoll or whatever.

And.

He actually even swore her in to be a lawyer. And she goes, I know why you're here and I can't help you. Rollins and Finn are like, okay, but you weren't part of the press conference. Why? She goes, well, I just made junior partner at this firm and I don't have time. And it's so funny how like anytime there's a lawyer in any situation and I'm thinking about sex in the city, but it's always just like.

Partner, partner.

I got to make partner, partner, partner. How many partners can a law firm have? A lot. I just don't get it, but I want to know the real life partner journey versus like the TV partner journey. Rollins goes, was he less than a gentleman with you? And he was her professor and mentor and she wouldn't be there making six figures without him. And Finn says, and you should be super proud, you know, a girl from the pink houses. And so they have a connection. Finn's really using...

his skills as a detective. Oh, I saw, it was in my feed, but you had liked it from the That's Messed Up account, Beth's joke. She's like, if I was raped, I would rather go to iced tea from.

SVU than a real cop.

Yeah.

Because at least he would be like, that's messed up. And then what was like, and then at the precinct, what would he say?

I don't know. It was really funny.

And it was, and we see, you know, I think the joke is I see is bad at his job.

But we see here.

Or he would have like more empathy than a regular cop. Like a regular cop would go, oh, that happened? That's fucked up. Like rather than just go, are we sure that happened?

You know?

Yeah. Because, and I think we've talked about this, because it's also like, you know, I know a person I used to work with in my salon days and they were raped, but the cop said since she was wearing a bikini, there was nothing they could do. But it's like, what? Why can't you wear a bikini? Like, I don't get why you can't be drunk in a bikini without getting raped. Um, But then men are mad when you're like, you're all rapists.

They're like, well, not me. And it's like, but you're saying that women can't even be around a bikini with you.

And that's an okay reasoning for rape. Like, I don't. I just don't get it. I just want to understand.

And I can't.

Maybe it's good.

I don't understand. But if I'm on the news in the next few months and I somehow found a sword and have hit the streets, this is where it began. You've gone full Luigi.

Yeah.

Um, okay. So they connect on the pink houses and she goes, you know, I am proud. I moved my mom from the projects into a brownstone that I own. And Rollins asks if she's afraid that this would all go away if people found out like you slept with him. And she goes, I was talking to your partner. She's offended by the statement with Rollins. And then Rollins goes, he's my boss. I just love this exchange. You know what I mean?

Like I fucking love it.

So then Rollins goes, you know, I think you and I have more in common than you think. Rollins, you know, she goes, I had to leave my first job and move here because of a guy like Gallagher. And then the lawyer goes, then you know I didn't sleep with him. And Rollins goes, yeah. So then our girl starts talking, you know. So Gallagher needed an assistant and offered her a fast track to clerk. And to her, she goes, like nothing, like speaking up, none of it is worth losing everything I have. and people not thinking that I deserve this because I was an amazing student and one of the best students. And she goes, what is he going to get? Maybe rape three, and it would be a tough case anyways. And I would put my partnership

at risk. She gets up and walks away. Finn tries to stop, like Maya, and connects again. And he says, I never knew a girl from Brownsville that would back down from a fight against someone who did her wrong. So now it's meeting time. We have Rita, the rapist, Carisi, and Benson. She calls the claims unsubstantiated. And she calls it a political attack. And Benson says, you can call it whatever the fuck you want. We found these women.

They didn't come to us. And Gallagher tries to shit on Carisi and goes, what, you went to Fordham night school?

You've been in ADA for a year?

He just loves to demean people. Rita stops him and she says, listen, if you had a legit case, you would have already perp walked him. So what are we doing here? They explain the DA is willing not to proceed if the judge drops out of the AG race and steps down from the bench. Rita goes, Olivia, which is an amazing line, Reed, on my part.

It's exactly like that. And she goes, I asked the judge to give.

You the benefit of the doubt, but these overt ideological and personal attacks are beyond the pale.

It is kind of like, did you commit a crime or did you not commit a crime? Because you can't just be like, we just need you to not be judging or running for office, but you could still walk around free.

I think that's kind of what she's saying.

Like, it's a little bit too loose for me, but I think they only have the one girl who fits within the statute.

So that's the problem.

Yeah.

And then Benson goes, this isn't personal nor political. Your client is a rapist. So they leave. But then like on the way out, the judge goes, you all live in a bubble. Keep it up and I'll see that you're disbarred. You get lucky. Maybe the NYPD will take you back and you could do traffic stops in Staten Island.

Then he starts talking about Carisi's flop sweat and that he smells like garlic. and that he doesn't belong, and everyone knows about his cheap suits. And, you know, Carisi goes, keep going, judge. And then the judge calls him a slur, and the captions don't spell the slur out. Yes, it's a slur for Italian people. And then the caption, yeah, they don't even write it out. Carisi then finally wants to go fight him. Benson gets in the middle. He has an evil giggle and says, you're so in over your head, you don't even know your career is dead and buried. This is a good episode.

Yeah, tense ass music.

Benson looks at him in disgust. The door closes after they all leave, and Benson asks Carisi, like, how are you? He goes, I'm fine. Screw him. So now it's elevator time. We have Benson, Garland, and Carisi. And they're complaining about this guy's ego. And it's not even like occurring to him that he's risking prison time. And Garland's like, no, this is actually like a great opportunity for him to shore up his status as a victim of cancel culture.

And then Calhoun is doing a press conference. She's like obsessed with this guy. I hope she's at least getting paid well. And now Carmen is walking one of the victims, the court reporter. And Carissa goes and Benson are like, what are you doing here?

You can't be here.

You know, in the courtroom halls by the press conference, they're like, go to holding where all the witnesses are until it's your turn.

She goes, I'm not testifying.

She just got a text from a supervisor that if she testifies, no judge would take her as a court reporter. Again, it's like everyone's protecting rapists. Like, if your coworker raped someone, why are you protecting him? Because you're a rapist too. I don't know how you want the perspective to be that not all of you are rapists when you work so hard and do all this mental gymnastics, coercion, threats to protect them.

Yeah.

And that these judges are going to be like, we can't have Carmen. She's a rape victim that testified. Like, we can't, you know?

So....

She's like, I'm sorry, I have to work. I have kids.

Because people that don't have kids actually famously don't have to work. It's kind of a big part of society. Carisi goes, that's illegal. They can't threaten you. And she looks at Gallagher and goes, like, that's stopped any of this before. Like, what are you fucking, she's a court reporter. You can't get one on her. She knows how this works.

Benson's like, we can call your supervisor. She goes, please don't. Carisi goes, fuck, I'll tell Francine she'll be first. So Benson says, like, you got this, Carisi. So we're in court and we have the witness explaining what happened on the stand, passed out, woke up on the floor with him kneeling over his penis in her left hand. The frat brothers watch. She could still hear them laughing. She reported it and they told her not to go to the cops, but she transferred out. And again, no one caring about these women's future. None of their futures matter.

And she's been replaying that moment of humiliation in her head for 30 years. And Rita's trying to discredit her because she's been married three times and divorced. That part is so fucking wild.

Like, you've been married and you've cheated, so why should we believe anything you say?

Like, what? Yeah, I don't know. So she's like, you know, she's a deceitful woman. Deceitful. And Carisi objects, and she keeps trying to talk, and the judge is like, hey, bitch, I already said sustained. Calhoun goes, no, I get it. I just don't know why the jury should take her word. And the judge goes, one more word, Rita, and I will hold you in contempt. And she says nothing further and walks off and kind of looks at the jury in this way of like, and me being silenced, you know?

She's not usually that like messy where she'll like talk after a judge sustains and like be like, I don't know. I feel like Rita's going the extra mile for this dirtbag in this episode.

Yeah.

So now we have Maya on the stand. And she's like, I looked up to him. He took a special interest in me, even though I was on scholarship. He gave me a recommendation, helped me. And like, you know, it was cool. But once she was open to helping him, you know, and she wanted good grades, he would say, you need to approach the bench. And that's what servicing him sexually was called. And she did it. And then the phrase for oral sex became night court. And it didn't end until the semester. And he didn't force her, but made it clear that if she did not do it, she would lose her scholarship and he would fail her and expel her from the program. He goes one phone call and that's all it would take. And so Rita's like, oh,

so as a lawyer, I assume you know the penal code for prostitution in New York State. Like this is straight out of a Buchanan playbook.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah. And Maya is like, ugh, I see where you're going with this. And she's like, Rita goes, do you have any proof? And of course, Maya says no. And Rita goes, can you read this email you sent to the judge? And of course, it's like, thanks so much. You've done a lot for me. I began my clerkship. I couldn't be here without your support. And Rita's like, does this sound like a note from a victim to a rapist? And it's like, well, it does, since that's what it is. And then Maya responds that she was trying to pretend what he did did not happen to her.

And he swore her in as a lawyer as well. And she's like, you're just trying to hustle some... some publicity after getting everything you wanted. And Carisi bounces back up to, you know, redirect. And he goes, is there any way you're going to benefit from your testimony today? And she says, no, which is duh. And now people are going to question how she even got her job.

She starts to cry and like, this is just terrible. And she's like, and I want to be fair. Like he did help me. And that's why I didn't come forward earlier because, But Carisi goes, but did he assault you? And she says, yes. And she seems very worried. And Rita and Gallagher seem very confident. So now it's hallway time.

And actually, Carisi walks out of the court bathroom to meet up with Finn and Rollins. And I love that. And so now the first woman they spoke with, April, walks in. And she's with Isaiah Thomas. And was that his name?

Whatever. Wentworth. And then she takes Holmes.

Yeah.

Yeah. And she takes off her mask. Again, no one else is wearing one. Why would you take it off in the courtroom? But I understand they had to acknowledge what was happening in New York City. It's just like really makes me laugh. She hears them chatting and cuts in like there was no reasonable doubt about what happened to me.

So you don't have to worry. It was rape.

She saw the lawyer's press conference and was like, fuck, that I don't want him to get away with what he's done. And she's on the stand. She woke up on the cold bathroom floor naked from the waist down. he was on top of her raping her while one of his brothers held her down. And she reported it to Hudson U. They declared the case unfounded. And Rita's like, well, why did Hudson see it as consensual?

She goes, I don't know.

And Rita's like, well, maybe it's because none of the witnesses backed you up. And she goes, oh, his frat brothers. And then Rita's like, and you were drinking. And maybe you brought up the sexual encounter and just don't remember it.

And she's like, fuck you.

It was rape. She then goes, well, there's also no police report and no rape kit. And April says, the school said if I did that, I would lose my scholarship. Again, like, why would the school take away a scholarship from someone that wanted to get a rape kit? Because they are protecting their statistics.

They don't want to have a lot of sexual assault cases on campus because then people won't apply or then they get a reputation or whatever.

That's why. I mean, I wonder if this Cornell situation is going to show schools that maybe this is a worse thing for your reputation. Yeah.

Or maybe not.

Yeah, if you try to cover it up, it actually could blow up in your face. But yeah, so Rita asks if she reported this to anyone. She goes, I told a classmate, Isaiah Holmes, and April cries. I did tell him. Gallagher raped me and ruined my life. And then Rita goes, you failed out of Hudson 30 years ago.

Maybe you ruined your life all on your own.

Dude. She's so brutal. You hate your life and you want to blame somebody else. So April is having a full breakdown. And then Rita wants to continue. And the judge is like, I think we're done here. I think we're done. I think the witness is done. Gallagher, unaffected. Actually, like, looking at April, like, pathetic. You know, like, she's pathetic to him. So now Isaiah and Carisi are having a drink in the office. And he's like, I regret bringing any of this up. Like, I didn't help her 30 years ago and I can't help her now. And Carisi goes, testify.

Go to court and testify. So we're back in court, and it's like, well, when did April tell you about the rape? Rita wants to approach the bench. She does not approve this witness. She's like, how do we trust him? The judge is like, listen, your objection's on the record. You can cross-examine, but I'm allowing it. And she's like, well, and the judge goes, and I already said that the jury will know that he was in the courtroom yesterday.

Like, shut the fuck up and step back.

So we're back with Isaiah on the stand, and he explains that April told him the next day. And, um, And he believed her because the next morning at the food service line, he heard Gallagher bragging about what he had done to April. And April's watching with Rollins in the stands and Creasy goes, wait, he bragged about it in front of you? And Isaiah goes, well, yeah, they're accustomed to not noticing the help. And that he tried to confront him but was scared because of his race and sexuality. And Gallagher legit was like, I'm going to tell everyone you're a homo. And he knew the school trustees and, like, you know, his scholarship would be taken away with a phone call. Again, a lot of these quick phone calls to ruin a life. Like, no one

should be able to do that. And he says it's been his lasting shame. Carisi is like, and now calling a sitting judge, like calling him out like this, is this a good career move for an ADA? He goes, no, it's not. Carisi asks, why are you testifying? He goes, I'm trying to write the worst moral lapse of my life.

He goes, my silence and not coming forward haunts me still to this day. I mean, they wouldn't listen to a bunch of women, but the jury might listen to this man. So thank you.

Um, so now.

Gallagher enters the bathroom where Isaiah is washing his hands and he says, oh, so you're getting back at me for not busting your trays. And Isaiah's like, well, at least you're consistent. Once an ass, always an ass. So then the judge goes, yep, you know, always bottom to the top. And then Isaiah does not like the little bottom top jokes. And Chip says, 30 years ago, a lot of guys didn't even want a closeted homo touching their food, but I stood up for you. Now you're a double token sucking and jiving up the career ladder, and this is how you repay me?

Can you imagine?

I mean, okay, so now we're on a phone, and this is one of my favorite SVU tropes. we're listening to the conversation on a phone. So Isaiah recorded it. I love a sneaky recording. They're in chambers. They're all listening to the tape. We got Judge Carisi, Calhoun, Isaiah, and Chip. And so then you can hear Chip say, she got what she wanted that night. And Isaiah asks, she wanted to be raped. And he goes, it's actually a common women's fantasy. Not like an F-slur like you would know what a woman wants. Second slur of the F.

Rita is like, you can't have witnesses working undercover. Carissa goes, no one at the NYPD or my office asked him to do it. The judge goes, why did you do this? And he says, as soon as he walked in, I knew he was going to like threaten me. It felt, you know, I got a sense. So I wanted to hit record to protect myself. And Chip is like, fuck, this is out of context. This is just men's room talk and you cannot allow a judge. And she goes, oh, I can and I will. So dramatic music, Carisi smiles, the squad is in Garland's office, and he goes, whoa, he took a deal. And Benson goes, well, he doesn't want the tape to get out. But he is going to end his campaign and he's going to plead guilty to sexual misconduct with one year house arrest, which is

like pretty easy for like rape. But he's off the bench, so that's good. Carisi leaves to close it out. The judge asks him to allocute. So, you know, the judge is now like, okay, sorry, there's a lot of judges. So Gallagher is pleading guilty out loud to the judge on the bench.

And, you know, that's the allocution.

And Gallagher goes, what I thought was consensual and now I see was perceived as coercive and hurtful.

Like, fuck off.

I think perceive is one of the words of this year, though. I know this is from 2021, but the youth love saying perceived. I don't want to be perceived. How am I perceived? The judge is like, okay, well, I actually don't like this deal. You know, you come from a good family, a fine home, and yet despite all those advantages and achieving power, you still abuse it habitually. So for the interest of true justice for the women you abused, I order you to serve your sentence in.

A jail cell.

Okay.

I love that.

He's shocked.

I know, he's shocked. He's like, we had a deal. And the judge goes, yep, you did. And as you well understand, the bench has inherent powers in these situations. The long arm of the law can work both ways. You're remanded. Benson's like in prayer hands. Rita says, it's fine. I'll be in touch shortly. Everyone in the courtroom claps, like everybody. Everyone hates him. Carisi looks proud. Benson is so happy. And, you know, now every case that he's ever dismissed is now also being put under review. The squad is chatting in the halls when Benson sees Rita in the elevator and goes, I'm going to go gloat.

So she catches her in the elevator. The doors close and Rita goes, wow, you seem pretty pleased with yourselves. And Benson goes, I don't understand, Rita. Like, why the hell are you defending him? Like, what are you thinking? And Rita goes, read the room, Olivia. These guys and women, the next 30 years, every appeal all the way to the Supreme Court, the fix is in. Benson says, we keep fighting. And Rita goes, not if they don't let.

You in the ring.

Olivia, my advice, lie back and pretend you're enjoying it. Somber music plays. Rita walks out the elevator. Benson can barely breathe in shock. And that's Dick Wolf baby.

Yeah, it's like in the end, Calhoun is just like a pick me. She's like, if I don't defend these guys, like I don't work, I don't move up, basically.

I need these big cases and whatever. It's nuts. I mean, yeah.

You know what is interesting with all of these cases involving alcohol in this episode and then with the Cornell case, one of the things that that crazy lady on The View, Sunny, was talking about were these old laws that New York has on the books about voluntary consumption that are basically like if someone chooses to take drugs or drink willingly, they're not actually legally incapacitated because they did it. It's different if you were drugged. It's different if you were slipped something. And it's different if you were like, if you're totally passed out. But if you're awake and you voluntarily have drunk, drank or done drugs, you can't be considered.

Incapacitated, which is so.

crazy to me, and the show has never dealt with that law.

No, and it's also like, well, the rapists are making the laws.

Yeah.

We talk about that. The law needs to be changed, absolutely. But, like, I'm surprised the show's never touched on it.

Yeah.

Also, why is morality based on legality, you stupid bitch? You know?

And also, what are you talking about?

Right.

So you can't drink?

Yeah.

So you can never drink... Yeah, I mean.

To me, it's like every case is always like, okay, so how many drinks did you have? And, like, what did the person seem like to you? Like, you have witnesses to say, oh, they were, like, drunk off their ass. Like, she didn't even know where she was. That's not the kind of person that can consent, you know? Like, you would definitely think someone that's had a drink that hasn't been drugged does have the capacity to consent, you know?

I don't know.

It just feels like a lot.

So I can't go to a baseball game, have some beers, and then if I get raped, I wanted it?

Like, none of it makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so getting into the crime, obviously, one of the.

First cases that I think this is based on is Aaron Persky.

Who we've already covered.

And he is the judge who was recalled, yes, as a Santa Clara County Superior Court judge in 2018 after he gave rapist Brock Turner his little slap on the wrist six-month jail sentence for raping an unconscious woman at Stanford. And we talk about Aaron Persky and his whole story in episode 256, Rape Interrupted, which came out about a year ago, if anyone wants to go back and revisit this man's story.

Another interesting....

That this feels like semi-based on that I'd never heard, and this is wild, is the case of David W. Lanier, who was a Tennessee judge, and he was also the scion of a powerful, a politically powerful family.

So... obviously, right?

And he was convicted in 1992 of federal civil rights charges for sexual assault on women who were either his employees or had cases before him when he was a chancery court judge in Dyersburg, Tennessee. So, four of the victims were women that worked for him and one had a child custody case before his bench. And one of the assaults that this judge committed, he was wearing his judicial robe, the court records revealed.

So.

All these guys are like, it's like, yeah. Like to be like, yeah, the judge's robe is like so important. And then you're just like assaulting people while you're in your uniform, your work uniform. So this guy was sentenced to 25 years, which is wild, like that you would even, a judge would even get that much who's from a powerful family. But then, of course, he was released after two years and four months because he won an appeal.

But then the Supreme Court was like, actually, you guys need to take another look at this appeal. And so they were like, okay, buddy, get back to prison. You need to come back to prison. But in August of 1995, he was ordered back to prison, but he never, he doesn't show up and he disappears.

So he goes on the lambs.

And in 1997, he sends a rambling letter to a court in Cincinnati begging them not to send him back to prison.

And basically, it said, after spending.

two years, four months, 10 days, and three hours in the life-threatening circumstances of a medium-security federal prison and some of the worst criminals in the world, there is no doubt in my mind that this is a death sentence for me to go back into that system. If you do not reconsider your order to put me back in prison, my blood will be on your hands and on your conscience for the remainder of your lives. At my age, I may only have a few months or years to live, and I want to die on the side of the law and order and not as a fugitive from the U.S.

Government.

So this fucking guy is wild. He's disappeared. He's sent like a letter being like, I'm not going back. But they denied the motion. And this is like, you know, September of 97. But then I did find that in October of 97, they found his bitch ass in Mexico and And he was detained in San Diego where they thought that he might have actually been hiding out for those two years in San Diego. And he also had like a P.O. box in Mexico. So maybe Mexico as well.

And I can't find out how long he went back to jail for. Like I could not find any more information after he was detained in October of 1997. But then I found his obituary that he died in 2022. which is wild because the obituary is like, he was a generous person.

I have to say, no, the family writes the obituary.

It's not like a factual account of your life, but it's like, he was a generous person who loved giving back. And it's like, he was a criminal who then ran away. He sent so many people to jail and then was like, jail's too hard for me.

I can't. Like, hilarious.

But anyway, I thought, him assaulting women that he worked for seemed connected.

To the episode. And then Brett Kavanaugh... Well, and this delusional idea that, like, he shouldn't be in jail. Right. And it's a death sentence for me, and I can't be with these animals, and it's like, you're an animal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um.

Yeah, like, this poor woman, like, I mean, not to say anything about his employees, like, they obviously need jobs, but this other poor woman is like, has to be in front of your court for child custody, and you're.

Sexually assaulting her? Like, oh my God.

But obviously, this episode is the most based on Brett Kavanaugh, the sexual assault allegations against him. And he is a current Supreme Court justice who will sit on the highest court in the land until I am dead, I'm sure. And he appeared on a shortlist of Supreme Court nominees in July of 2018. So that's about 18 months into our first term with a rapist as our president. And obviously his Supreme Court picks are going to be like loaded up with like questionable dudes. So I think also like Like this guy wasn't even, I'll get into it, but he wasn't even considered like a great student. Like he was a good student and he went to good schools, but like he's not even the best of the best.

I think that Trump likes to appoint these people that he can like control, obviously. So that's like what I see when I see Kavanaugh is like a puny, like a little wimpy wimp that he can like chess piece around.

Well, it's not even the wimp.

There's all this stuff of like people's stuff was paid off and that the other guy went off the bench early for no reason. That like Kavanaugh had all this debt that was paid off.

It's like he's also been bought.

Yeah. Right. Right.

So as soon as Kavanaugh's name gets out there, Christine Blasey Ford, who is a psychology professor at Palo Alto University, contacted a tip line at the Washington Post and her congresswoman at the time, Anna Eshoo, who's a California congresswoman, with the report that Kavanaugh had sexually assaulted her at a party in 1982 when they were in high school.

She was 15 and Kavanaugh was 17. Later in July of 2018, she contacted Senator Dianne Feinstein about the accusation. that's a former California senator, and asked to remain anonymous. Feinstein forwarded the information to federal authorities. Then as of September 16th of 2018, that's when Ford went public with her allegations. And she alleged that Kavanaugh and his friend, which is much like the accusations in this episode, they always have like a loser friend with them who's helping them out. And this is his friend from Georgetown Prep, Mark Judge. They were both, quote-unquote, stumbling drunk, according to Ford.

And they got her into a bedroom during a high school house party in Montgomery County, Virginia. And she said Kavanaugh pinned her to the bed on her back, groped her over her clothes, grinding his body against her, like, trying to pull off her one-piece bathing suit and her clothes. She tried to scream. He put his hand over her mouth. And, of course, the friend is, like, sitting there watching the entire time. Um... Blasey Ford, at the time she came forward, she was 51. And obviously this happened to her 35 years earlier. And she reportedly said, I thought he might inadvertently kill me.

He was trying to attack me and remove my clothing.

She thought he was about to rape her, but luckily she was able to escape when Judge, the friend, jumped on the bed and knocked them all on the floor. So luckily one of them is such a good doofus that he like tried to maybe join in and knock them all on the floor and she was able to like scramble out of there. Kavanaugh denies everything, knowing her, committing any of these offenses, etc. Republicans thought, oh, this is just like a plot to delay his confirmation. This is like, you know, this woman is just trying to, she's politically motivated because he's a Trump appointee. Blasey Ford gave names. She truly is like a hero of our time.

I think about her constantly and she's lost so much. Like to think she did it for anything outside of just like care for everyone.

Like it's so fucking crazy.

Right. Yeah.

She like lives on the other side of the country. She's not involved in politics. She's got a family. Like, you know, she is doing her life.

She doesn't necessarily need to jump into this, but I think she thought we cannot let this man become a judge in the highest court, you know?

So she gives the names of friends who were there. And a lot of the friends believe her. They just don't remember the incident. I mean, it's 30 plus years ago.

They don't remember.

But they believe her, like based on her accounts and probably based on like what they all freaking know about this kid just from like word of mouth. So both Kavanaugh and Blasey Ford were invited to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Kavanaugh accepted.

Ford wanted the FBI to investigate first. But Chuck Grassley, the Republican chair of this committee, denied that request and gave her a few days' to say whether she was going to testify or not. And she was invited to testify either publicly or privately. She could do whichever one that she wanted. And she chose to do publicly. Why did she, yeah, why did she do that?

Probably because she was like, I want to put like a face to this.

Like if this is not, if this is just like a nameless, faceless woman and it's anonymous, I think that's probably why she came forward. Um, so she eventually did testify. I think we all remember it. Like, I remember it very well.

Like, I remember. I remember it so well. And I remember him crying like a little bitch, acting like the victim, being a fucking maniac. I swear to God, I can't. She truly is like, deserves a medal.

Of honor one day.

Yeah.

Yeah, and like, I just remember her testifying. I remember her being on the cover of Time, all these magazines. And I was just like, this woman is like so brave. I think I cried when I watched her testimony.

Like it was really emotional. A lot of women praised her for her bravery. And this is all, if.

You could remember, much like this episode is talking about. This episode is 2021, but probably was slated to be out a lot earlier, but because the pandemic was delayed. And so this is when the Kavanaugh hearings happened, it's basically one year. after the start of the Me Too movement. And then as this episode's coming out, they're trying to maybe like talk about the repercussions of the Me Too movement. And, you know, at this time, it's a very, a movement that's alive and well. Like I said, she's on magazine covers.

She's very praised by at least people on the left. And the right obviously thinks that she's like an op being sent to take down an innocent man for political gain. So when Kavanaugh testified, he said he does not dispute Blasey Ford's claim that she was assaulted, but it was not him. It's just not who he is or ever was.

So on October 4th, 2018, the White House announced, obviously, that it found no corroboration of Ford's allegation after reviewing the FBI's latest probe into Kavanaugh's past. Another woman had also come forward, Deborah Ramirez, which is very similar to the episode where the woman wakes up with this guy's penis in her hand. This woman says that He exposed himself, like took out his penis, thrust it in her face at a.

Party after they'd been drinking.

They'd both been drinking at this college party in the 83-84 academic year at Yale. So Kavanaugh, of course, denies the incident, says this alleged event from 35 years ago did not happen. Again, she gave names of people that were there, but like none of them remember it. But a lot of people believe her. A lot of people are like, I believe it. I just don't remember that happening.

So eventually, these two New York Times reporters named Robin- Pogrebin and Kate Kelly wrote a book called The Education of Brett Kavanaugh, An Investigation, which they published about a year after the hearings in 2019. And they didn't find any smoking gone or anything. And what they concluded was that basically this guy was like a privileged kid who drank too much and hurt women in his youth when he drank a lot. But then he grew into a better person, they think, citing that Many women have worked for him and they all said he was great. And he had no accusations publicly after his post-college life. Like no one came forward. And I'm like, I highly doubt that he just like straightened up. But maybe I think

what's more interesting was to watch how people would bend over backwards to try to pin a motive on Christine Bozzi Ford for lying about this when she obviously had zero. Like this did nothing for her. Like, everybody thinks everybody wants fame. Not everybody wants fame, and not nobody wants this kind of fame, you know?

No, and I remember during this time, too, that I thought about was, like, that the way people were talking about it, it's like, your kids are watching you. So now when something happens to your kids, they know not to come to you.

Yeah.

Like, within how it was all talked about, it put more victims in.

Like in the closet, you know, like back and secret.

Like if you're a young teen daughter and something happens to you, like you remember the way your fucking parents talked about Kavanaugh and Blasey Ford.

Yeah, I remember how my parents talked about Clarence Thomas and Anita.

Hill, you know?

And then it's like, well, why didn't you say anything to anyone?

And it's like, well, I just heard my parents talking about how everyone's a lying whore.

Yeah.

So that no one would believe me.

So it's like, so you expect everyone to come out, yet you treat people that do... like, fucking liar. It's... I don't know. It's so upsetting.

Yeah.

It's, like, so upsetting.

Yeah.

But... And then they also claim, I mean, and we know this, that it's all hypocrisy, but it's, like, the claiming of, like, we care about children, which they don't, and women, this and that, and law and order, and justice, and we care. We're the party of all that. And then it's like, well, you're not at all.

Yeah.

Like, at all. At all.

Yeah.

Um.

Okay.

To cleanse your palate, we are going to talk to an amazing guest.

So don't go anywhere.

Our guest today is an actor who has had recurring roles on shows like Drop Dead Diva, Parenthood, The Affair, and WandaVision. But you know him today as the despicable Judge Charles Chip Gallagher, who dropped not one but two slurs during the episode, but drops approximately zero during this interview.

Please enjoy our chat with the wonderful Josh Stamberg. The timing of this episode is insane.

I would say. I can't even believe we're talking to you this week. It's like it was planned or something.

I swear to God, and I was just, you know, obviously it's a while ago, and I'm sure we'll get into it, but it was the first, if I'm not mistaken, you guys will know better than me, I think it was the first episode back into COVID.

First season, for sure. One of them, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And then on top of it, what a fucking nightmare of a character. I'd forgotten. I think I was just in the shock of like, I want to get back to work. And when I started watching it again today, this is like the worst. I played a lot of bad dudes. My mom, rest her soul, was always like, I'll know you're a good actor when you play the Jimmy Stewart role. This guy's a fucking nightmare. He has raped everyone. I know. He sits there and stares them in the face. He talks shit about What's the piece of writing? Garlic?

Yeah, he had two slurs. Two slurs.

This is fucking awful.

Well, you did an incredible job.

And unfortunately, these people are so pervasive in our culture.

And the world.

That's right.

They are in such high power positions. You really nailed this guy and why it's so frustrating to... to deal with these kinds of crimes in this world. I mean, you did nail it.

Yes, and the ranks closing, thank you for saying that, the ranks closing around, like, the worst humans at the top of the funnel. Like, that, like, my daughter just started a GW freshman year, and I'm just like, This is what's happening on campuses still or at Cornell. I know. Let alone, you know, we don't even have to get into it, but a certain Supreme Court justice who we all watch.

Which this is based off of, you know.

Of course. And I think that's what drew me because he is, I hate to say, close to my age. And I grew up in Washington, D.C. and was aware of that sort of douchebag school he went to. And it's, anyway, it is just hard to make sense of as a human being. at this moment in time, you know? And just throughout, historically, it's sort of like, but anyway.

Well, that's also why we love SVU, because so often we do get this, like, Fairytale where the judge is like, and actually you will be going to jail. And like, you get this button that you don't get.

Yes, yes.

Like in real life.

Very gratifying.

In real life, your guy doesn't even go to court. He gets on the Supreme Court and he is fine.

And he probably wins the nomination, wins the election, wins the blah, blah, blah, right?

Like it is.

It hurts.

Yeah, that's why we like SVU.

There's some justice there.

Kind of this other side.

How many of the 300, has anyone out of the 300 ever not said, this is a New York rite of passage. It's such an honor to.

Be in a family.

Well, you know what everyone says.

I'll tell you what the most, we hear well-oiled machine.

Yeah.

That's what we hear the most.

It's a well-oiled machine.

And never truer, and I think this is the fourth episode of of the franchise I was in and I'd never done SVU, but even more so and truer with the COVID vibe of it all, where they bring it right in the courtroom, you're seeing the partitions, the everything, you're seeing the masks and the way they leaned into it and the way they talked about, hey, we're bringing this into the show. We're not pretending this isn't happening, which I thought was so fucking ballsy and on point.

And I guess unsurprising that they would be the ones to handle it that way. But also terrifying a little bit, right? Because you're all in this moment of like, how sick am I going to get going to New York right now? Right. Right. Sorry, what were you going to say?

Oh, I was just going to say, like, they're just like, the show has been so like prescient in a lot of ways about so many things. Like they're, How many, there have been so many episodes that mirror this Cornell case in the news that they've done forever.

That's obviously been happening for a long time.

There's things that they've tackled on the show that haven't even been, I think they talked about Epstein.

Way before that was like a household name.

You know, like, so I think it makes sense for them. I don't think the show would ever just like put something like COVID under the rug and be like, in this New York, there's no COVID.

You know what I mean?

Like, sure, in that New York, there's no Facebook. It's called like Face Union. But like in this New York, there is COVID.

But that's the recipe. It's like we just take it head on. It is ripped from the headlines. It is the truth of the city, right? Yeah, totally. And it is, and I'm sure everyone says this too. Not a new idea, but even when I hit it, or I know everybody coming on says this, I'm traveling anywhere shooting whatever, and you hear it on TV in the hotel room, and you're like, oh.

Yes.

Like certain balm. Yeah. And you're like, oh. It's the best. It just hits something so deep and weird and goose bumpy where you're like, I was 25 in New York and got the audition, and oh, my God. And then- I miss home. I'm in LA. I turn it on and I know everybody says this too. See all your buddies, see all your pals, their turn on law and order. Right.

And it's very. Oddly comforting because normally as an actor, When I'm watching any given TV show, the obvious egomaniacal response is, how the fuck am I not on the show? How did he get that? But you know with Law & Order, your turn's coming if you're not a complete dumbass.

Yeah, if you just wait.

Yeah.

Because you've done Original Recipe and Criminal Intent and SVU, and.

You've done Law & Order True Crime, the Menendez brothers.

Oh, shit. I didn't even put that together. That is correct.

That's another whole facet.

God bless you.

Don't go.

Yeah.

Are you an unrepentant asshole in every single one?

No, thank God. There's only one. No, my first job on Law & Order, they need some info from a guy, and I roll out from under a car in my.

Overalls as a car mechanic.

Oh, my God.

Cool.

I think I had a tool, and he left it here, and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, you know.

Classic.

Yes, three, five, under five, whatever it was, right? And then a jackass surgeon who was awful. Um, and then, uh, and then the Menendez, the reporter, a journalist who wrote a book about the brothers and actually befriended them. And I think to this day, this stays quite close and visits them in jail. And he was a piece of work who sort of, as I was warned, would get a little stalky. And he did like, I got it, you know, he was like in and in on it. Um, so yeah, mainly, I mean, you know, unfortunately I've made a whole career of these very, um, questionable human beings.

How did you balance having the stalker playing.

A real person split?

Like, how do you do that?

I've had a couple of those in jobs. Um, At some point, fortunately, like, the studio intervenes, or you start not responding, and then they have somebody who sort of steps in and is like, hey, we totally get your interest here, but this is a TV show we're making, and legal this, legal that. You know, stuff way above my little pay grade.

He has, like, notes for you, or what's he reaching out for?

Notes.

He wants way too much involvement. This is what actually happened. This is what you should be saying. I've done another show about... Or I played Bill Shine, a show called The Loudest Voice, about Roger Ailes, right? Russell Crowe played Roger Ailes. And that guy I sat down with. And that was kind of creepy. He had been, like, head of Fox, like, president of Fox News, and real involved with, like, Trump, the whole thing. It's not just, like, I love the, like, detective work of it. Like, that's one of my favorite pieces, is, like, digging and digging in. But sometimes you're just dancing around.

Up to a fire that's like, I don't really even need to be looking at that flame. You know what I mean? Like, that's close enough. Totally. Like, no, no.

Because you play, I was about to do a thing of like, you seem so cool.

And then, yeah, you do play this guy so well.

Well, that's always the thing of like, it is really fun to grind the gears on these absolute. dicks and and it is really hard to not judge them because of course that's the first thing you're told in drama school right like don't judge the character like really find the truth of it and to me like when it started happening that i was getting these roles i was like uh it's it was really like confusing morally a little bit but also i do love the gray like as a as an actor as an artist like that's what's most interesting is it's not just good and bad in this case it is all one thing like i don't know what the redeeming quality is of judge jackass like i don't know but i think like usually that's the fun is like okay make him the asshole you

love to hate right like at least give the audience something that they're like oh but he's entertaining or something This guy is just all one thing.

No, it's shocking, because we hadn't really heard a racial slur and stuff like that since, like, season six. Early seasons. Yeah. Oh, my God.

That was, like, kind of crazy, too.

Piled on, right? Like, piled on.

Yeah.

Which is, at some point, like a heavy lift. Sometimes it really does make it hard, obviously, to go back and watch, but also to do. You know? I don't know where else in life you're, like, you're given the license to say horrible, horrible shit.

Right.

So I guess... Like, maybe doubling down on that. Like, oh, if I could just do anything, I would do this. But it doesn't feel great, honestly.

Yeah, because this guy, like, obviously there's plenty of people who talk like this in private. But this guy talks like this in public and is like, it doesn't matter. Like, I'm untouchable.

You know?

Like, I can just say the F slur and, like, that's actually not going to do anything to my career.

That's so true. It's like being untouchable, knowing you're untouchable, and then. Like building off a campaign that you're not and that you're the victim of it all on top of it all. Knowing you're getting away with it, but acting like, oh, it's poor us.

Like that, the twisted.

Yeah, we are suffering. The pendulum swung too far is the line, something about this.

Oh, yes. Me too. It's gone too far.

Right, where it feels very, not to get political, but it starts to feel very MAGA. They did have me in like some red tie, you know, at some point. I'm like, what is the commentary there in terms of like, To your point, untouchable. Like you can't, I can say whatever I want you, you grab them and they love it.

And you like all that stuff. Right.

And then Elizabeth Marvel playing her lawyer, who is like, I mean, I'm getting like, just especially with Cornell and everything right now.

Right.

But it is the constant, like figuring out what the victim is.

Why didn't you speak sooner? Why did you do this? Why did you go out? Why did you go there?

And it's just like watching her do it is, it is hard to watch.

It's hard to watch. It's actually scary. She scares me in it with the whole like, well, look at your life. You wanted to be a lawyer. You're nothing. Like just eviscerating, right? Like a grown woman who's already suffered major life trauma.

You went to Madison, University of Wisconsin-Madison, I saw, which is a different story, but it's hand in hand right now being reported with the Cornell thing about this hazing.

Incident that happened there.

Oh, I didn't, what is it?

I missed that.

They found these 30 boys in a basement covered in like food and a lot of them look like they'd been, you know, hurt because they were, it was a hazing ritual. And I think it was, I think they just happened to surface at the same times because it's just kind of like, what are we doing with fraternities?

Are we still doing these?

Like, are these being run the right way? Or, you know, and so I was, I didn't realize you hadn't, heard that one yet. I've just been seeing them like another fraternity story.

So that's been lumped together like in the news cycle.

Yeah, just in the news cycle.

They're like, and you know, while people are talking about Cornell, they're like, oh, also at Wisconsin, these, you know, poor boys were in like a basement that was heated to like 82 degrees covered in like mayonnaise and bleeding, you know?

And did you do theater there?

I did. Yeah. They had a really great theater program that was, um, They combined you with the graduate students in certain classes, which was really cool because there were a lot of people who had already been out in the working world and came back because they're getting their MFA to teach or they're doing whatever they're doing. And then you're just learning it. You're getting it sort of both ways. You're getting it from a pretty cool professor.

And it was a new group administratively at that point who were kind of young and badass. And it gave you like a wider audition to get in. It was like a conservatory of sorts. And then you got a whole host of different types of ways to train. It wasn't like, this is the only way to act. So I think that was a big benefit, which was cool.

And you did soccer. So were you always doing theater and sports? Always.

And that was a problem at college because the coaches were like, there is no off-season, really. They're like, what is it that you are doing? Like, what do you mean you're doing a play? Like, there was a lot of shade on that, right?

You were like an after-school special, living it out.

Yeah.

Gotta choose. Ball for the stage.

Completely.

And did you have friends in both? Like, was it, were you navigating the two?

Okay, cool.

Yeah, such a good question because it's so huge, right? And then it's about like, how do you find your people? But then I had these two super disparate groups. You know what I mean? The sports world and the theater world, never the two showed me, like it was, and then my buddies on the team would come to the plays and give me shit, but they'd come. You know what I mean? And that was super cool. No one from the theater department would come to games, however.

They didn't? Oh, yeah.

They're like sports. Sure.

How did you meet your wife? Where did you meet?

Not married. Okay. My bad. All good. But after getting divorced eight years ago, having never been on an app in my life, I got on an app that I'm always embarrassed to say, but thank God, because it kind of saved my life, called Raya, and met her there.

Oh, my God.

Okay.

I was so excited you were on Raya.

Yeah. I mean, also Raya.

Wait, but Raya eight years ago, you got to get on these things on the ground floor. And I feel like Raya eight years ago was the ground floor of Raya.

Was it?

Okay.

Now Raya, I think, is a bunch of riffraff.

I mean, it was a little cuckoo. It was like, oh, Debra Messing.

Oh, Venus Williams?

I'm getting paired up with Venus Williams?

Okay, yes.

That's so funny because all I ever heard was friends of mine.

It was always girls I knew that were on it. And they were like, it's just Mobis on there. Like, I just kept hearing, you know, like.

Ben Affleck, like crazy stuff on there where you're like, what's happening? And weirdly, like when you're just out of a long-term thing, like also intimidating in a way you're like, I, first of all, I don't know how this works. And second of all, who is it? This thing, like what's happening? What is happening?

And how are they letting people in? What's the like, yeah.

And Los Angeles is already so weird. And then you just kicked up the weird factor to like a thousand, right? Like, Yeah, very weird. But thank God, again, thank God, thank God, yeah, that I met the most unbelievable human being because of Raya, because of an app. Like, thank God.

Is the person you're dating in the business?

She's not. She's a chef.

She's like a private chef.

I know. Jackpot. My God. But does she cook at home? Like, somehow. Like, somehow. Because I'm that bad at it. She's like, I got it. Her story is funny, though, because when she went on Raya originally, I think it was in, like, year one. And they had no one. And she knew these guys who had set it up and made the app and blah, blah, blah.

And she went on and she was like, it was only 12 people. So you just all dated. It grew really fast. Which is like, I dated like four or five of the guys. And then you're like, now what?

I went to the end of the list. I'm at the bottom of Raya.

End of the list. Okay, so here's a good long order story. When I got the first job, I told my grandmother. I was very close to my grandmother, my nana. She lived to be 97. My mom's mom was a New Yorker. My mom's a New Yorker. And I told, you know, my Nana, I got my job. I got my first job on TV. She's like, oh, wonderful, darling. Wonderful, wonderful.

Who's on it? Blah, blah, blah. She didn't really know the show. Jerry Orbach. Oh, my God. I love Jerry Orbach. I saw him in The Fantastics. He was so handsome. He's so wonderful, right? He's so handsome. He's so wonderful. So tell him I said hello. So, of course, I go up. Day one. Hello, Mr.

Orbach.

You know, so happy to be here. And I just want to tell you that my And he goes, let me stop you. Your grandmother loves me, right? I know. I got it. I'm glad you're here, too. Have some fun, kid. You know, like, how many times.

What did he do?

Like, hundreds of performance of the Fantastics?

The longest-running show ever.

Yes.

Bananas.

Our love and love. Bananas.

I know.

He knew.

What.

Do you have any memory... I mean, it was COVID, so were you guys just kind of sequestered? Was it a strange filming environment for this one?

Super strange. Um... Um, I was in the same hotel as, um, Wentworth. Um, and, and you couldn't like, I have so many of my closest friends live in New York, but you had, we're signing all this shit. Like you can't see anyone. You can't do anything. We're just in this hotel that had like a little kitchen in midtown, you know, and the, and the city's shut down. I was, you know what it was. It was apocalyptic. Um, and it's snowing. And you're just like– and we were in midterms, I think, too.

Midterms or maybe presidential election.

Yeah, it would have been 2020, right?

Like November-ish of 2020, yeah.

And I just remember, like, calling– I think literally on the hotel phone, like, calling Wentworth, like, hey, what are you doing today? He's like, yeah, nothing. I'm just walking around my room, looking at lines, talking to my boyfriend, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, I'm just doing laundry. Okay, talk later. And then, like, an hour later, like, text him, be like, what are you– what are you going to eat? He's like, I don't know. I'm going to Uber eats, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, me too.

Like it was, it was just like, couldn't wait to get to work.

Um, anyway, I do remember that. I do remember how comforting it felt to actually be at work and have people not afraid. And, um, how good that felt to be back in camp that way, like in the collaborative vibe. And again, to your point about well-oiled machine where they're like, let, here we go. This is what we do. And I'd known Mariska a little bit socially from way back my New York years. And just to see what a fucking badass, like how many seasons, my God. I mean, that woman just coming in and being like, bringing the full show, bringing the comedy, the warmth, talking shit to people. How are you? How are you? And just like, I've been on so many shows where that ain't the circumstance. Like

they're over it, over it, where she's just like, this is our family, this is my world. I was really impressed by her leadership. All of them. They were all, I mean, everybody was cool. But those are my memories. Yeah, pretty much.

Can I please ask you about this JonBenet Ramsey project that.

You are in? Yeah, thank you, yes, for asking.

Because it's ghoulish to say that's like my favorite case. I'm just very obsessed with that case and I have read a lot about it and watched a lot of things about it and I will absolutely be tuning in to this.

When is it coming out? What's going on?

It's being released by Netflix in December with a big, big, big awards push because I'm going to tell you guys straight up. Like I've done lots of things with lots of, you know, from Oscar winners to Tony to blah, blah, blah. The greats. I've been super fortunate in that regard. Melissa McCarthy. I couldn't believe along with any, if you see who's in that cast, which is.

It's a powerhouse cast.

It's insane. We were looking at each other. day after day like, are we seeing what we're seeing? Like, are we living this with this performance she's giving? Like, this is.

She's good.

I mean, I like her serious performances.

I think they're really great.

I mean, we know what a genius she is comically. Right. But I didn't know till that. Remember when she played the New York, the journalist in New York, she got nominated for an Oscar. Right.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Can you ever forgive me?

Yeah. But then I was like, Oh no, this is like next level. Like this is, and obviously Clive Owen's Clive Owen. Right. Uh, it was really hard. It was really hard. It was Calgary for four months. Uh, A lot of nights, a lot of just grinding. That material's rough.

Like it's rough. What character, who are you playing in it?

So I play this guy, they changed the name. Fleet White is his name in real life, who was, he and his wife were best friends with the Ramseys. So they raised their kids together and this guy's the one who found her, you know, took the son away from the scene. They were like best friends, right? So- And then they completely fell out because the Ramseys blamed them and said they did it.

I didn't even know that.

And they had to start defending themselves. And it got like, it all got just so like the whole thing, bananas, bananas. There were a couple of days on that job where I'm like, this is the best I've ever had on any job ever in terms of what the work was on a couple of days where we, we all just left like, what a gift, like what a gift. And again, you want to talk about leadership, like Melissa McCarthy, another one who, Showed up to our first rehearsal, me, Clive, Jamie Ray Newman, who plays my wife, and the director, Ann Sawitzky, Richard Blagravenez, who wrote it. We get to rehearsal, and Melissa comes in. We met once or twice, pulling one of those, like, law file things on wheels. You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah.

Like, in the courts downtown.

Yeah, yeah.

And has two boxes stacked. It's like, gunk, gunk. She's like, hi, guys. Like, with all her fucking research. And I was like, okay, okay. This is what this job's going to be. And part of the thing that made the job, I mean, it's so dark. It's such a dark place to spend that long. But what was very cool was that everyone on set, Clifton Collins Jr., Shea Whigham, everybody's got, you know, Chris Bauer, a different theory because no one knows what the fuck happened.

So we could just be arguing, nope, I think it was, you know, deep dive for everybody.

No one knows, but like, I think the dad making a documentary about it is like, what are, if you don't know, why are you pushing, what are you pushing in your documentary?

I just think the dad knows.

This many years, 25 years later.

I think he knows something.

You wouldn't just let it lie? You want to get back in the spotlight? Like, yeah.

I don't know.

I think, yeah, I don't, I, what did happen is that after a very hard day of shooting or a couple of days of finding the body, it was just very complicated. And, and I find her and then he scoops her up and runs upstairs. And what happened is he laid her down upstairs and they, formed a prayer circle around her and started praying with their priest who was there super spooky and bizarre that's what actually happened i woke up the next day in my hotel and i i couldn't open my jaw i've never had this happen i couldn't fucking open my mouth and i started texting my doctor like i don't know the fuck's going on i can't move my mouth and he's like what are you doing right now i'm gonna shoot this thing

i've been he's like well yeah of course you you have so much stress you have like giving yourself whatever that's called, TMJ or whatever. TMJ, yeah. And it took like two months to decide that the job was so stressful. It was so stressful.

Oh my God.

Yeah, you guys.

Some people get Botox for that. Some people do have to get Botox for the TMJ.

Is that true?

I'm sorry to laugh.

I'm going to look into that because now I found the right excuse to get Botox.

Wait, I can't wait to watch this.

I'm excited. December, you said.

December. I did a little ADR. It looks really good.

Melissa McCarthy actually had a cameo last season in SVU.

No fucking way.

What was that? But she was funny. It was like she couldn't not be funny. She wanted to have sex with Mariska.

No!

She was like an old time, like an entertainment wrestler fighter at a convention at a desk or a table where you pay to meet her. And they're investigating a crime within the fighting world. Do you think she wrote and pitched that? Well, we saw a video from set. They surprised Mariska. So maybe they're friends.

Oh, I saw that video. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know that's because she was doing the show, though.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

And she was funny.

Oh, wow.

It was awesome.

I love her. I love her.

I'm very interested to see her in this role. And you, of course. I'm so excited to.

See this now. Thank you. Thank you. But she is, it is like off the chain. It is, yeah, it's crazy. She's going to, I mean, I'm not jinxing her. She's going to get nominated for everything. And she should.

She should. She's really like, she just kills it. But you are in one of our other favorite shows, Sex and the City, an early season.

Do you have a memory of that?

There's a crazy story behind that one. So that was season one.

Yeah, so you didn't even know. Nobody knew.

I'm just like, you got this job that I auditioned for. I think I auditioned for a different role. And I got this thing, which was Charlotte's first boyfriend, by the way. Mr. Up the Butt. So I get to work. They're like, Josh, Kristen, Kristen, Josh. Okay. Jump in the bed. Like, we have almost no clothes on. Like, so Josh, get behind her. And you're about to have some booty sex. And I'm like, okay, cool. Nice to meet you. Super awkward. I'm 20, whatever. And she's like, do whatever, you know, I've done a lot of these things.

Just do whatever you want. It's fine. It's fine. There were no intimacy coordinators in those days. We shot the scene. It's sort of funny. And then went away. And then I get a call like a month later from my agents being like, you, you gotta go back. They, they, they changed the scene. You're going to reshoot it. And I didn't even, I had never, I hadn't been on enough sets to know what a reshoot is or why or what any of that meant. So I get back and now the scene is the one you saw. We're totally suit and tie and she's totally clothed. And it's all very like prim and proper because at that time they thought the asex version was too racy, which is so nuts where you, when you see where that show went, right.

Like what actually transpired, but, um, pretty cool job. I don't know.

Do people recognize you from it? Like out and about?

It's more, more what it is is I start a job and then they start Googling around or going to IMDb and they're like, Oh my God, you were, you know, what was fun in those days in New York was that, you know, everybody would, we'd all go out together. Oliphant, uh, Will Arnett, uh, Bobby Cannavale, whoever, whoever it was, Tom McCarthy.

And they'd be, and we'd be at bars and, you know, a girl would come up. And at that point, because it was the carrier evolution, it was all like, the bars were really fun. And they're like, Oh my God, you're Mr. Loud sex. You're Mr. Blah, blah, blah. Like, and that's how they knew you. And that was hilarious.

Well, Bobby's is the worst. He's the guy with the funky tasting spunk. That's like, wow, they talk about him. I got to be backstage for, he was on Broadway last year and my friend got invited. So it took like all of my power not to bring it up.

You should have. He would have loved it.

You think so? I just didn't know.

Because when you're a plus one, I feel like sometimes, you know, you're with this other person.

He would have loved it.

He has such a humorous humor. He would love. Are you kidding? Yeah.

So what... What made you do the move from New York to LA? Cause you were, you were crushing it out here.

Yeah.

Such a good question. I appreciate that. And it is, I don't live with like a whole lot of regrets in my life, but that's the one where I'm like, why did I just crack like the knitting circle of New York theater? I was doing a play that was really popular that I had like helped create and produce in a small way with, uh, a guy named Dominic Famousa.

I don't know if you've had him.

And he's in the new Dexter resurrection, which I'm a big Dexter head. So yeah.

So best man in his wedding. He and I go way back. He's one of my closest.

He was so sweet.

He's amazing. He's an amazing actor. Um, and, uh, and we were doing this play that had become very popular called tape by a child, a friend of mine named Steve Bell, where that he wrote, um, And who worked on Law & Order for a while as a writer-producer. And we took tape from New York to L.A. and then London. And in L.A., some things started happening. And I always had this sort of rule, like, I'm not going to go to L.A. Like, I was very much the New York actor, like, fuck L.A., blah, blah, blah.

I'm a New Yorker. Because you don't know what you're talking about, but that's just what you're supposed to do. But then when I came out and started getting a couple jobs, one of which was six feet under, I was like, well, there's something happening here. I was miserable out here for the first five years. It was a real tough transition from New York. But it kind of worked.

It kind of worked. But I really always felt and still feel I should have spent a bunch more years in New York just at that moment, maybe.

When you were in the affair, was that not shot out on the East Coast?

Honest to God, no. I've been so lucky that so many series I've gotten have been in New York. And the affair was I'd moved there for whatever that, however many months, a bunch of months. That was an utter highlight. That too. That was another one. Like Six Feet Under, I was like, something's happened. Like this is a real thing.

Because when I came on, it was like as a guest star, this or that, maybe you're going to recur, which is what they always say, right? And then Sarah Treem, showrunner, incredible playwright, called me after the first season and was like, hello, series regular. And I was just like, what? Like I told David Nevins, who was the head of showtime at that point, like, I got to have you for next season and now you're a series regular. And it was like, that's not the way the story goes. And if I'm giving off the impression that that's how it goes in a career, it's absolutely not how it goes. Not for me anyway, at all. It goes the other way. So that was, yeah, the affair was like, again, We got so close with Don West, Dominic West, and with Maura,

and it was just such a ride.

And she's a regular now on Law & Order regular that's back.

She's a badass. Yeah.

This was so fun.

We've really wanted you for a long time, and we're really glad that you got here.

It's actually crazy because we were supposed to talk to you a couple of weeks ago, and I'm sort of glad it happened later. So we can have this conversation about all this Cornell.

Stuff that's been going on, you know? Not that that's like a new thing that's never happened in the United.

States before, but it's at.

The forefront right now.

So sad and dark. Every story coming out. Like, what is happening? Where are we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys, thank you.

Thank you. This was so fun. Thank you, Josh. It was great to meet you.

Love him we loved him oh my god what a guy what a guy I mean he's like he was telling us he gets cast a lot as like kind of douches and I just I kind of like when these like douchey looking guys are just like super nice I mean he.

Was just fun personable chill like it flowed he just is like yeah and I you know I love those early 2000s stories yes yes so yeah just a real blessing real blessing And Halloween is hitting its force.

Yeah.

Is that a saying?

I don't even know. I don't know why I said that.

Hitting its stride? Hitting its stride? I just scrolled up to look at when this episode came out and I saw today.

Oh, yeah.

Happy Halloween in advance, everybody. It's Halloween week. Yeah, I'm pumped. Wait, I bought, wait, I have to show you the shirt I bought.

Wait, what are you being?

Have we even talked about it?

Yeah, hold on. I'm going to show you the shirt.

Hold on.

Isn't that cool?

Oh my God. So I'm going to be like a video store horror shelf. That's amazing. That's really cool. Yeah. So I'm excited to wear this and I'm going to wear like a red pleather skirt and just kind of be like a gothic horror video store slut.

And then I.

Think I want to be Ilya Rosanoff one day. And then I have my costumes from last year and I think I'm just going to re-wear it and just be a bloody dress and just be like, I don't want to be a murder victim, but like I was a crime scene last time. Like maybe I can get caution scene tape. Why do you have to have so many costumes?

I'm going out, babe. I'm going out.

But multiple nights or multiple parties?

Okay.

Yeah, I'm hitting the streets. So I have plans the 28th.

I don't have actual concrete plans every night and I want to bar hop and like see where the night takes me. But I'm going to save my bloody for Saturday. I'm going to be Ilya Rosen off Friday. I'm going to a hip party event Wednesday. And then Thursday, I don't know.

But I'm ready. I'm ready.

You're ready. You obviously are ready.

Wait, are you?

Yeah.

I mean, like, Saturday, it's like Halloween on a Saturday just kind of, like, fucks me.

I have children.

And then, well, the trick-or-treating. Isn't that cute? Exactly. No, it's so fun.

But, like, I got invited to a bunch of parties on that Saturday night. But I, like, I'm just dead by the time I'm done trick-or-treating. I'm not going to, like, go to a party at 930.

I just looked.

And then that Thursday, I'm going to bong for dinner, which is, like, one of the top restaurants in New York. Yeah, it's Cambodian.

It's in Brooklyn.

I actually met these people like, I hope someone remembers me. I'm like at the edge of my seat wanting to be recognized by someone from this restaurant. But we met at like a small intimate gathering and I had some other oyster, like they were going to be part of a farmer's market. This was like last year, two years ago.

And then like the rain hit. So everything got canceled. And then we all went to a mutual friend's house. And then, so I got to eat their food. And I've been craving this restaurant, but they never took reservations. They were very hip. And now they're on all the lists. They're so popular right now. They're like crushing it. They're on every top list, but they opened up to reservations.

My friend got a reservation. And so I kind of, a part of me wants to like DM and be like, I'll see you there. But it's like, they might not even remember. They're like so hip at the moment, but it's, but then it's a friend's birthday after. So yeah, I might do, I don't know if I'll do a Halloween full on nod, but I'm dressing up Wednesday, Friday, Saturday for sure. Wow. And different costumes. I'm too lazy for that.

I would probably just reuse. But I have everything here. It's not like I'm, you know, Heidi Klum every one of those days.

Right.

It's a shirt.

It's a dress.

It's a, you know. Oh, and then I'm going to go to SoulCycle.

Halloween morning and I'm going to wear this. Oh, yeah, baby. Yeah, I'm going to be the Toy Story alien.

Oh, my God. It's that time of year, baby. Okay, so the post-mortem on this episode is like.

Oh, yeah, I don't want to. We talked enough.

Like, we all know it's... Go on Instagram and look at everyone's... It's like a fucking nightmare. Nothing these rape apologists say makes sense. Nothing is logical. Men are rapists, and we need to watch out. Yeah.

I just think that everybody should, like, after an episode like this, too, like, Furious is so not SVU, but I still really appreciated it.

I thought it was awesome.

And it made me realize, like, even more, like, why we like SVU, because there's, like, this, there's nine times out of ten great resolution, a sense of justice. And Furious is like here to kind of remind you like that that's fucking not real, but it's so well done.

Ooh, love it. I love it.

I mean, I would practically watch it again and you know I'm not a repeat watcher. But I just can't believe, I mean, I can. I have to stop saying I can't believe it. But like when this is like a season 22 or we'll do something from season two and it's like still so relevant.

Like people were like, Messaging us being like, this is kind of like.

You would think I did this on purpose. You would think we scheduled this on purpose. Yeah, that we picked this on purpose. We didn't at all. We had this guy scheduled way before Cornell 7.

You haven't watched the new season of SVU. It is the Cornell rape case. How did they do it so fast? Or they just really had this on the ready?

It is insane.

Or they switched the orders or what? Or they made it that fast and they knew about the... It is insane. The season opener of SVU... And you're gonna, the cold open's gonna fuck you up. I'm warning you now. I'm gonna watch, I'm gonna watch this week. I'm gonna finish up.

The cold open's gonna fuck you up.

Oh my God. Of the season premiere? Yeah, I'm warning you now. Okay.

Trigger warning.

Trigger warning. Thank you. Thank you.

Ugh.

Your nails look good. Oh, thank you. I just got them done for the first time in months. Wait, do you have costumes? You're not going to wear anything. You're just, you're going to, you usually do something. You should be Kelly Clarkson and the animatronic bird. You love, you know, I love a zeitgeist costume. Get, get him in, get your husband in a bird costume.

You get to just be Kelly Clarkson.

And I just get him in a bird costume with a $ 15, 000 price tag on him.

Yes.

Oh my God.

That's so funny.

A beak and a tag if he doesn't want full bird. You know you love that shit. And I just get to, but I'm nothing. Like Kelly, what's Kelly Clarkson? She doesn't even have like a signature style. You know she's known for a chunky highlight.

Okay. And back in the day, back in the day. You would have a microphone or you could wear the outfit she's wearing at the store and be really niche. Okay. So it's like a backpack beanie. You know, like she had a thing going on. Oh, that's fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You might even have all the stuff.

I have it. For sure. Kelly Clarkson in the bird store. Kelly Clarkson in the bird store. Wait, I haven't even told you my theory. I mean, I've talked about it in other places, but my theory... Are you ready?

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

I can't wait.

Okay.

I think this was a... It's a conspiracy theory. I think this was.

orchestrated to cover up her Las Culturistas interview and how much she talked about loving AI. I don't think that super famous people realize how popular podcasts are. And I think she just went on Matt and Bowen's podcast and thought, oh, like, I'll just talk about how much I love AI.

Wait, when did this episode come out? Wait, when did their Las Culturistas come out? It's the week before. The week before the bird thing.

She's on Las Culturistas, not only talking about how much she loves AI, but then using her, I don't think so, honey... to be about AI also. Like she revisited it. How did the boys react? They were kind of like, uh-huh. You know, I mean, they love Kelly Clarkson. Like I haven't seen like the whole, I didn't, most of the clip that I saw is her.

This is absolutely it, but how did they plan this?

I think she, look, look, I don't know how this was exactly planned, but I think it was like, okay, we got to figure out something where Kelly kind of looks like a victim, maybe like a pretty woman sort of situation. And she just like, I don't know how they fucking, I don't know. And I honestly, like, I'm mostly joking. But like, when you Google Kelly Clarkson now, no one is talking about the fact that she was- Were people talking about it?

Yes. It was everywhere. Casey's nodding.

Where was I?

I have no idea. You were busy. Well, I was following the birds. You were at Liechtenstein. You were doing all this other stuff. But the Kelly Clarkson interview came out.

And everybody was like, backlash against Kelly Clarkson because she wasn't just like, oh yeah, I think AI is kind of- of cool.

She was like, I fucking love it. I'm obsessed. It's like my love. I think she called it her lover. Dude, I wrote Kelly Clarkson loves AI minus AI and it said no match. Yeah, because I can't. It can't look for it, probably.

But like, she was talking about how, and what was so infuriating about her interview was that she was like, I love AI.

It's so great.

I think we're going to do amazing things with it. And I think musically, it's so cool too. I just don't like it when it's on the charts against humans. And it's like, okay, so you don't like AI when it comes to your profession, like when it comes to what you do, but you're fine with it. She goes, I'm using it to redecorate my house. You can afford an interior designer. Like I'm using it for this. I have so much fun with it. It's so fun, blah, blah, blah.

Like not mentioning that like people are going to like lose their drinking water and that it's like the number one But the.

Boys should have pushed back. I don't push back, I guess, on our guests. I just look at them in such a disappointing way and end the interview as fast as possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I do argue with all of them, but respectfully. Yeah, that's true. Respectfully.

I just, like, I think that it's just coincidental that, like, she goes out there being one of the first celebs to be like, I fucking love this stuff.

And then a week later has this massive.

controversy at this place that's like too funny almost to even like be rigged but.

It's out of the headlines now now it's just Kelly and the bird no I can't even find this AI stuff.

Yeah it was big the week before because I talked about it on another podcast like I was like I just don't like when someone is like oh AI is awesome for doing XYZ but then when it comes to my business I don't like it you know honey you know where I stand I know You don't have to tell me twice. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

But let's get to this week's What Would Sister Peg Do?

We have been blabbing this episode.

This is our weekly segment, What Would Sister Peg Do?

where we give you an article, a book, an.

Organization, something to flesh out what we talked about in today's episode. And this week, we wanted to point you to Christine Blasey Ford's memoir, One Way Back. She's obviously such a brave, inspirational figure to both of us. We talked about in the episode today and her book reveals new details about the lead up to her testimony and its overwhelming aftermath and describes how she continues to navigate her way out of the storm. She recounts the months she spent trying to get information into the right hands without exposing herself and her family to dangerous backlash. So you can check it out. You can get it wherever books are sold. We'll also have a link in our show notes and that's posted in our stories. Every week

when the episode comes out, we post our WWS PD story and that goes into our highlights.

Those are always saved in our highlights.

So if you missed it, it'll always be saved in our highlights on our Instagram, which is that's messed up pod.

Go give it a follow.

But yeah, like this woman, I mean, this is like the kind of thing that you should make everybody read a book like this when they're like, they just wanted fame. They just wanted this or that when they came forward. It's like this woman's life was turned upside down for almost like I would say zero.

Benefit to her. I would just go, well, name the accusers of Bill Cosby. Name them then. Yeah, they're so famous. Name the accuser of Kobe Bryant. Like, name them. Yeah, if they're doing it for fame. I wonder why they're not famous.

Totally.

Dude, I have blood lust. Okay, next week. It's Halloween.

It's Halloween.

It's the Halloween spirits getting inside of you. Gimmick, season 27, episode 18. Our first episode from the most recent season. Get into it on the Peacock.

Oh, no, it's actually season 27 is on Hulu as well, everybody.

Get into it. Oh, wow. That's exciting.

Yeah.

All right. We love you guys. We love our Tommies. Happy Halloween. See you next week. That's Messed Up is an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at thatsmesseduppod at gmail.com. Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at thatsmesseduppod and follow us personally at Cara Clank and at Glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer, Casey O'Brien, and our associate producer, Christina Chamberlain. And to our mixer, John Bradley, and our guest booker, Patrick Kottner. And to Henry Kapurski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgareff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media. Dun, dun!

The Long Arm of the Witness w/ Josh Stamberg

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