From Rothschild to Make-Ready: Scaling Avant Arte’s Global Print Revolution

0:33 Welcome back to the Art Business Podcast. My guest today has spent the last decade building one of the most consequential platforms in contemporary art. Mazdat Sani is founder and CEO of AvantArt, which has generated more than $150 million in revenue from a global community of over 4 million collectors.

0:54 It's pretty impressive, actually. He's been working with artists from Ai Weiwei to Marina Abramovich. But today I want to go beyond the founding story he's told elsewhere. We'll talk about the business mechanics of scaling a platform like this, his recent move into museum governance as a trustee of the National Portrait Gallery, and what it means to acquire and run the world's largest fine art printing studio.

1:19 So Mazdaq, welcome to the art business.

1:22 Thank you.

1:23 So you've told the Boiler Room and Avant Arts origin story in detail elsewhere, I will ask you to repeat it, but you moved from an M&A background at Rothschild into building consumer platforms. So what's the single most useful thing your advisory training gave you that you still lean on running Aventart today?

1:45 Yeah, as I've said elsewhere, I was a humanities kid through and through. I was a French horn player. I then at university thought I wanted to become a poet. And so that sort of half decade at Rothschild was a bit of a surprise in that journey. And so I think there were obviously lots of technical skills that I learned.

2:12 There was lots of analytical skills around how to value a company and, you know, I guess implicitly the strategies that help build value in companies. But I think the most durable skills that I learned were really soft skills. So I was mentored by a very senior partner there, who is very revered within the firm.

2:38 He's very softly spoken. He can hold a huge boardroom of grandees hanging off his every word with a softly spoken demeanor. I think he was very impressive in his ability to combine hard and soft skills. You would work for three weeks on a 90-page deeply technical presentation with lots of analysis and imagine how this insane ability just sort of leaf through the 90 pages, to the one page that you hadn't triple-checked one of the numbers and just pointed it and asked you about it.

3:16 But I think the soft skills were really what stuck with me, which were, you know, he would, you know, make sure he would sort of draw out the opinions of the most junior person in the room. He would, so, you know, that was invariably me at the start of my career and just the sort of the impact of someone that senior saying, well, what, you know, you've been closest to this analysis.

3:37 What do you think? What do you think the plan should be? And, you know, that felt very unusual and very motivating to someone, you know, at the start of their career. Or watching him navigate very complex competitive transactions with lots of highly competitive private equity firms competing to acquire an asset.

3:59 And I just sort of watched him make every party feel like he was trying to get their best outcome and trying to sort of do the best for them. And I think sometimes the natural posture in those sort of negotiations is one that's a little more oppositional. I think the things that he taught me that I really retained were just sort of.

4:23 There's always an ability to find that sort of Venn diagram overlap of people's interests and the sort of soft approach to sort of make everyone feel like that is your focus, I think is really, really valuable and has had much wider application than, learning how to do a discounted cash flow model or those things that were really important in the first couple of years of my career there but but less so since.

4:48 So so it sounds as though you you had an amazing mentor was was that kind of like serendipity did it just you were just lucky to find

4:57 Yourself working.

4:57 With him or

4:59 Yeah very very fortunate you know it wasn't a sort of structured uh mentorship program i mean there was a sort of you know there was a future leaders program but this really sat outside of that you know we supported the same football team, uh as a sort of that was for our sins manchester united um, He is global head of retail, but he used to also do the football transactions, which was sort of what every junior banker wanted to work on, because it was sort of a fun topic.

5:34 And so I sort of found myself onto that team, and then we got on well. I think what was also impactful was... When you have someone really magnetic that you're working for that you feel, is valuing you at the start of your career, it makes you want to work three times harder and do your very best possible work.

5:56 And so I think that I've tried to hold on to that as well.

6:01 I think that's nice for my current students and recent alumni to hear. Look out for people that you respect and listen and you know make notes yeah you manchester united took brian and bilmo from my club brentford it's their business it's quite interesting football isn't it because the business model is you know there are some overlaps you're talking about venn diagrams i always think there's some overlaps like with the the way the art market the art world you know functions uh with with gallerists buying you know investing in kind of artists like you might invest in footballers and large advances

6:38 And uh yeah yeah and then the bosman ruling uh is there's definitely a sort of overlap there.

6:45 Yeah no exactly no you could have a whole podcast actually talking about overlaps with football anyway thanks for that and and um just just a just a side thing uh you said that you were you you learned to play french horn and and you were thinking about becoming a poet do Do you still manage any of that kind of like more creative?

7:05 Do you have time to do anything like that outside of this work?

7:09 Yeah, I still go to lots of classical concerts. I'm engaged in that world and, have been involved with a couple of different orchestras over the years. I used to play in an orchestra called EC4 Music, which was for people that had had very intense classical music training and then had gone into a different world. So that was great. Yeah.

7:36 But then more recently, I've sort of been playing at weddings when friends ask me to. So I do sort of furious practice for three weeks to get my lip reconditioned.

7:48 Go-to person.

7:49 Exactly. But yeah, I have a 17-month-old daughter and I would love more regular music making to be part of her life. So I need to get my horn reconditioned to make that.

8:02 That's really nice, actually. It's really good to hear. So back to the business. So avonart has now grown to over 100 employees across three locations and as i said generating more than 150 million dollars in in revenue so looking about at the business decisions rather than the mission what's the one structural choice in financing hiring or the operating model that you say mattered most to getting the company to that kind of scale

8:29 Yeah i think i mean i think ultimately it's a little trite, but I think ultimately it's always the people. And so I think that, you know, some of the lessons that I learned from my previous business from Boilerum, you know, we've tried to carry through to how we approach recruitment, that we have a very extensive recruitment process and it's, you know, pretty highly structured.

8:54 We do for senior hires, we do really extensive referencing of five different colleagues, family member, a friend, trying to get a full picture of people before they join. So I think that's definitely the foundation. Thinking about one specific thing that's a little sharper, I think that, you know, I think it was probably the way that we've tried to respond to challenges.

9:22 And, you know, in 2018 through to 2021, for different reasons, the market was very exuberant. And there was lots of sort of, you know, the sort of ultra contemporary market was really flying even before COVID. You then had COVID sort of COVID era collecting, you know, and I think that that started to unwind very quickly in the middle of 2022, at least that's when I think the additions market started to feel it.

9:53 And, you know, we'd really, you know, looking back, we never really had a moment that the sun hadn't been shining for the business. We'd been sort of growing and profitable and, you know, working with artists we'd admired and institutions we'd admired. And then suddenly we had a really significant set of challenges and the things that were selling a month before were suddenly not selling.

10:18 We had these sort of projects scoped with artists that you know we'd spent lots of time and money on the artists spent lots of their time on and they were sort of scoped for a very different environment and so had you know had difficult conversations to. Have you know with a lot of artists saying well you know we need to look we need to look at what's in your best interests you know in 10 years time rather than you know the next couple of months and doing successful projects, you know, is critical.

10:47 So we, you know, I think in that moment, you know, it was a sort of, it was a macroeconomic inspired set of circumstances, and it would have been easy to sort of throw your hands up and say, well, you know, this is, these are just sort of the market wins and we don't have agency and woe is us. You know, I think we, we sort of.

11:09 I think what i feel really proud of of the team for doing is doing the opposite and we taxonomized all of the things that we had agency over and you know really, went to work on 100 150 different small changes that that then led to, you know really fantastic growth and sort of profitable sustainable growth over the last few years and i think if we you know, yeah there would have been a you know there would have been some fine outcomes even if we hadn't have done that i'm sure but i think it's it's left the company in a really robust, place even though you know that sort of exuberant market hasn't returned and probably won't return, for a for a number of years but i think that was probably the,

11:58 you know maybe it's not a structural decision but it's a It's one of approach and mentality, I think, and it was the most important for the last five or six years.

12:09 Yeah, I mean, obviously, I've heard this story from other sectors of the art world and market. You said the exuberant market running up to 2021. Then, obviously, there's lockdown, there's Brexit coming together, and they definitely had impacts. On on you know generally speaking i would have thought that your kind of market for limited edition prints would have done very well during lockdown because people are kind of you know just working off their piece did that happen in a sense

12:41 Yeah i think it did i think it's difficult you know we were in a sort of we're in quite an early stage of growing the company you know we were a few years old we were, maybe 15 people at the start of the pandemic. And so we were growing quite rapidly. We were building a much broader roster of artists that we were working with.

13:04 And so it's a little difficult to... And our sell through, the rate of sales was almost 100% for almost all projects. So it's a little difficult to disaggregate what was pandemic era exuberance and what was just... We were in the early stage of growing rapidly. But I think watching the unwind of that in 2022, there was definitely an effect.

13:31 And I think that we were focused on a lot of the areas that were most impacted in that moment. So we'd grown sculpture as part of our program from maybe 10% of our programmed to 50% and suddenly sculptural works versus prints were much more challenging to sell. We were very focused on ultra contemporary artists. And again, that was probably the part of the market that was most affected.

14:00 Our price points had really started to increase. We were selling lots of marble sculptures for 50,000 euros. And again, suddenly, You know, those are the bits of the market that were most under pressure. So, you know, I think a lot of it also, a lot of the sort of response was really, listening to the collector community and working out what was sort of...

14:24 Desirable and you know finding that sort of intersection with the artists that we'd worked with and were working with and then what what collectors really wanted and i think that you know we probably didn't have that sort of, the same two-way dialogue in the past it was sort of what does the artist want to make and we'll just sort of we'll enable that and i think part of the, i think part of the enduring value of that response has been you know we can now bring the expertise of knowing this new generation community to the artists and working out what resonates and how to communicate best and all of these things, you know, we haven't had to focus on and therefore we haven't.

15:00 So I think, you know, people always say this in hindsight, but I think it was in retrospect, the best thing that could have happened to the company, but it was, it was definitely sort of 12 to 18 months of really sort of hard yards. You know, we were, we make things, you know, physical things that are new with artists.

15:21 And so, you know, if, you know we start a project today, between sort of nine and 18 months is when it would sort of come to fruition so if you if you make an operational change if you sort of change something about how you approach things it's going to be nine to 18 months until you feel the effect of it so there was a sort of lag of.

15:41 You know, having to sort of do all of that hard work on the changes and then still get through a sort of a period where you weren't yet seeing the results. So I'm very happily through that now, but I think it was the best thing that, could have happened to us, as I said.

15:59 You mentioned marble sculptures. I mean, obviously there's more risk to investing in in that kind of material i would imagine compared to like making prints from from you know original paintings or whatever so so did you were you working with artists who already had their own capital to afford to make marble sculptures or were you did was there any any part of your business where you were forward you know giving them advances to to buy the marble or did that Does that ever happen?

16:31 Yeah. I mean, many of the artists, I'm sure, would have been able to afford marble sculptures, but it's a structural part of our model that, we always pre-fund all of the costs of every program that we do. Sure. So whether it's an artist or an institution. You know yeah we sort of pre-fund all those costs and if if the project were to be unprofitable then we would take all of that risk, i think it's sort of it's been philosophically important and thankfully it hasn't happened but you know i think it's yeah it's an important part of, both sort of you know finding new revenue streams for artist studios but also also institutions and that being risk-free i think is is important.

17:14 Yeah i see just so i think the addition model to think more about the edition model that you're using in your business strategies because you've got the time-limited edition and it's priced and structured very differently to a traditional numbered print run where the things are on show maybe in a gallery for several months and if they sell, they sell. If they don't, they don't.

17:37 But this is kind of like interesting. It's almost like an auction. It reminds me of the Dutch auction where you start with a high price and it's very stressful. I've actually been at them at the flower markets in Amsterdam with my students. They realize how stressful that is compared to the auction where the price increases.

17:54 So the moment you bid on something, you've got it, you know. But that time thing, it reminds me of early eBay where you'd wait till the last moment and you get gazumped by someone else, you know, who raises the price. But is there a psychological element that you realize was a selling point?

18:13 I think there is but maybe slightly different to the comparisons you're describing I think we always have sort of set pricing so the price is not dynamic at all and I think that's been important to us you know we have a. You know we have collectors all over the world and so whether we you know, launch a project in a sort of reasonable time you know reasonable time for london if someone's in hong kong i think they shouldn't they shouldn't sort of you know feel a negative impact from not being able to buy it for six or eight hours, i think though that you know i mean we think about that there obviously is a sort of potential way to create scarcity around the price as you're describing.

18:58 But I think for us, the two main ways that we've explored are, through number in that traditional sense that there are only 50 of these and there are lots of people that want them and that creates scarcity or the slightly newer model that we borrowed from an artist of time-based scarcity. And so that sort of window of time, I think does, you know, does create the urgency for people to, to want to, and I think, you know, there are always, there are always people that, that miss out.

19:29 But I think the nice thing about that model is, you know, there is a sort of fair window for everyone, you know, it might be 48 hours or seven days, but in that window, you know, if you are, you know, if you're paying attention, you can, and you have the funds, you can, you can by an edition, which I think has been.

19:47 You know, I think there's always, you know, our mission was always around public access and making collecting much more accessible for people. And I think there was always a bit of attention when you'd have 50 prints and 550 people that wanted them, there was always a bit of attention between that mission and the model.

20:04 And so time limited editions has been a nice sort of, you know, particularly for those sort of, you know, entry points or sort of first points of access for collectors. I think it's been a really nice model to introduce new people to collecting without a sense that, you know, you're not going to get it if you haven't bought five works before, you don't have this particular collection or, you know, whatever else.

20:27 So, yeah, I think it's been good.

20:30 And can people see the edition diminishing, the numbers diminishing?

20:36 Well, the edition size is defined by the number of people that buy in that window. So we don't even know the edition size. Oh, right.

20:43 Yes. No, I understand now. That's interesting.

20:47 Interesting yeah so yeah we we publish that edition size but people buy because, you know which i think is also interesting for the artists people are buying because they want you know the edition on their wall and they want to enjoy it in their home you know rather than you know of course there are collectors who are buying an edition because they, think there are 550 people that want them and only 50 available and so it will increase in price over time and so you know this really is designed to be for people that that are, you know at the early stages in their collecting journey and really focused you know rather than on the addition number just on the fact that they can have a work with the mark of the artist that they love in their home.

21:30 And and when you're setting price points is that a conversation you have with the artist or does your team decide what that should be and put it to the artist to see what they think is that the way that kind of work and also if other institutions are involved how does that share work

21:48 Yeah so i mean it's always a conversation with the artist and the artist's gallery and you know ultimately the you know, if the artist wants a specific price we can advise you know what we think is going to be most successful but but it's you know it's ultimately up to the artist. I think what we, have built over time we've done 973 projects now so there's just a sort of wealth of insights from that as to you know what makes for you know the most successful editions projects and so i think a lot of what we bring to, the artists when we work with them is is advice on pricing and edition sizing and you know we have a sort of team focused on research and data and that can sort of you know help to advise on that

22:32 but yeah it's definitely a conversation between us the artists and the gallery.

22:37 Yeah and the the average sale is a i believe a couple of thousand euros but you you've sold pieces up to at least 250 000 euros sometimes you might want to correct that and as low as a few hundred euros how do you think that about that pricing ladder strategically so is that lower end seen as a kind of loss leader for customer acquisition or or is it generally profitable in its own right

23:05 Yeah i mean we we don't scope any projects that are loss leaders or not profitable in their own right because i think every yeah i think every project needs to be valuable for the artists and if an institution is involved for the institution as as well in its own right, i think there is a there is a floor on pricing because we, use the best printmaking materials we have you know we're really focused on the experience for collectors you know we want collectors to continue collecting for decades, and so we really focus on the packaging and the experience of receiving, your work, and that implies a sort of flaw in the pricing.

23:45 It's kind of impossible to do a successful, sort of mutually valuable project for less than 350 euros per piece. So I think that was, with Ai Weiwei, that was the sort of most the most accessibly priced project that we've ever done. You know, I think the other thing we think about a lot is sort of, you know, thinking longer term for the artist.

24:08 Excuse me, Mazda, you're probably my dog. I'm just going to close my door.

24:12 No problem.

24:16 Sorry about that. Unfortunately, it's Refuse Collection Day today, so she barts at the lawyers. Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you. So we were talking about that. Yeah, those price points and Ai Weiwei.

24:31 Yeah, I think the, you know, the other thing that we think about is sort of, yeah, thinking longer term for the artist than just an individual project. So as I said, every project needs to be valuable, needs to be profitable for the artist and the institution. And at the same time, I think the best relationships that we have are where we're thinking three years ahead as to the editions program with the artist.

24:56 And so you can start to think about, you know, building a base of interest in their work and offering different tiered pricing through that program with the artist to have slightly different objectives. And I think those relationships are where I think we can do our sort of best work. But yeah, each project is always going to be profitable, but you can, yeah, I think there are moments when you're thinking three years ahead with an artist where you can think about sort of building a broad base of people that are, engaged in collecting the work and then being able to start to experiment in terms of different mediums and different price points and build a sort of fuller tiered program over time.

25:39 But it's always artist-specific rather than something that's about the program overall, if that makes sense.

25:47 Obviously, what I like about that is it's traditional in the sense that alpha commercial galleries in their histories, if you look, they've done well mainly because they've had a symbiotic relationship with the artists that they take on. It sounds as though you're really putting that relationship. It's very important. What I was going to ask is, do you allocate certain artists to certain members of staff?

26:16 Do they have their own little stable of artists each and they work with them on projects?

26:21 Yeah, we try and have a consistent team that will work with the artist across multiple projects. I think that's really important. And yeah, that is not the very same team every single time. There's always... There's always an artist liaison who sort of manages the project. There's always a creative producer. There's always someone, you know, has sort of initially built the relationship with the artist.

26:46 That could be me or my co-founder or a number of other people. And then there is, you know, people across from art handlers, marketeers, the sort of a broader base of people, but that sort of those three roles are very consistent. And, you know, we want the artist to have a consistent experience of those three people.

27:06 Sorry, we're having the same night. Let me try and get the mic back on. There we go.

27:11 It's fine. So your CV highlights the acquisition of Make Ready. That's the screen printing studio that's since scaled to become the largest fine art printing facility in the world. So that's interesting. We're now talking about, if you like, the craftsmanship part of it, if you like. So what was the strategic case for buying rather than continuing to work with external printmakers, kind of outsourcing, if you like.

27:38 And how did your M&A background at Rothschild shape how you approached that deal by acquisition, if you like?

27:45 Yeah. I mean, the sort of strategic case was, you know, we were always very inspired by, you know, lots of those historic, print studios and publishers, particularly in the US who had. Were sort of, yeah, were publishers, but they also had this sort of deep engagement with the craft of printmaking and they had their own studio.

28:09 And so that was sort of, you know, that's been an inspiration for many years as we've grown up on art. I think. You know, clearly the, you know, you touched on it, but that sort of symbiotic relationship with the artist where you can sort of provide the best possible value is, you know, is what we're sort of always focused on.

28:30 I think the proposition for artists that, you know, we're not just a sort of vehicle for communicating with a new generation of art lovers and collectors and, you know, can sort of effectively, build incremental revenue streams and these sorts of things, but we're also, you know, have some of the best makers and, you know, can help them explore different parts of their practice and explore this, you know, explore silkscreen, I think has been really important.

28:57 So that sort of proposition for artists was probably the first and foremost element. I think, you know, I think there was also something around the ethos of the team. So I think, you know, I think what's special about the Avanark team is that there are, you know, there are sort of people from outside the art world who are sort of digital marketing specialists and people that sort of bring business logic or these other skills there are you know technical people on the sort of, you know who who can build online experiences in great ways or sort of you know data specialists who can help inform the research that we provide to artists, but i think the missing piece was always you know i mean we had art handlers

29:41 and you know we had sort of people that. Were dealing with the physical works, but never anyone that were the makers. And I think that sort of that final part of the triangle, I think, was really important. And so having that, having makers at the sort of center of the company felt really important. I think maybe more mechanically in terms of the strategic rationale was, you know, as we started to grow the business and, you know, have this community of 4 million people and have these sort of ambitions for bringing a whole generation into collecting for the first time, I think it became clear to us that there was no print studio in the world that could guarantee, the level of quality that we needed, but at the scale that, that we were sort of growing into.

30:35 So, you know, it was sort of control over that really critical part of our supply chain was also really, you know, was really valuable. And, you know, when we first. Met Make Ready, met Tom, the master printer, and the rest of the team. They were in a subterranean, very small studio in Kentish Town and were sort of flipping soot screen screens to get them through the door.

31:01 But I think you could see even in that studio, there was a very meticulous layout. It was almost Japanese in the way it was organized. There was a place for everything. The studio was impeccable. And whilst they were constrained by space and various other things, and they were sort of having to do all the new business around, you know, generating clients for the print studio, there were just all the ingredients to make something really special.

31:29 And many of those ingredients, I think they've sort of, you know, they're now in, as you say, the largest fine art printing facility in the world. And, you know, but those principles really remain. And I think it was, you know, we had been working with a really wide range of printmakers for a long time.

31:47 And, you know, I think Tom and his team were a really interesting intersection for us because they were, it was the best quality work that we, that we'd received even from, you know, businesses that were sort of decades older than Make Ready. And you know tom and his team had a. Had a desire to you know had this real curiosity around learning and we're sort of, excited about the idea of scale and we're excited about you know how to sort of retain all of the special things about craft but also be part of this mission to open things up on the collecting side so that felt that felt quite a unique combination but yeah those Those were the rationales.

32:29 And finding, I think, finding. Partner with those characteristics is is pretty rare and and you know so we we sort of jumped to the chance.

32:41 So topographically how does that work master is it are you so presumably you invested in a new location for mate ready and but but what i was going to ask is do you do you have offices or are you all working out from home or uh you know do how does and how do those two physical places relate to one another

33:01 Yeah so there are three physical places actually there's the print studio in tottenham we have an office off brick lane where where the majority of the team is, and then we have an art handling facility in amsterdam wow, we are you know we are remote first i guess you would sort of characterize it as we do lots of our meetings on zoom because of those three locations we also have a couple of people in new york and so you know being able to communicate is is sort of you know remote first really, but get everyone together sort of regular you know for all of the obvious reasons get everyone together regularly we'll sort of, the whole team will do a you know we're going in a couple of weeks to see free

33:45 sculpture together and then go for go for lunch uh, so those sorts of moments to sort of you know communicate with each other and build relationships outside of the sort of course of business i think we always we always try and prioritize but yeah we are we're structurally split across those those three hubs basically.

34:03 That's interesting so the and obviously you've also got found you're also working with founders and quarries which you you haven't brought into the businesses so so can you do you think that was just a one-off piece of this kind of puzzle that that obtaining make ready as part of your business or can you see you one you know maybe approaching a foundry or something and getting them to work specifically for you Or wouldn't it work? Maybe that just wouldn't work.

34:34 Yeah, I think, I mean, I definitely think we'd be open to it. I think, you know, we talked through some of the, some of the rationales, some of which I think would be very much there with a foundry. So I think it would be, you know, it'd be amazing to have, you know, to have a fantastic bronze foundry that's sort of part of the team, rather than, you know, we have an amazing bronze foundry in Japan that we work with very closely, but, that would be fantastic for it to be within the business in terms of the proposition for artists and then being able to work really closely with you know with those makers i think that, you know i think that the the sort of one of the joys for the make ready team has been you know,

35:17 not having to do not having to sort of be distracted from making the best work by having to find new clients and that sort of new business side of of you know running a print shop and i think that. You know i would always want to look at you know bringing in other makers where that could be the case and where the sort of volumes of work that we are making in that specific medium would would mean that the foundry doesn't also have to go out and do all of the new business because i think that's a big part of the sort of you know the synergy for a make you know a maker to be able to focus entirely on the quality of their work and not, be stretched, I think is really a big part of what's interesting.

36:00 And yeah, I hope we'll get there, but we're not quite there yet on bronze, for example. You know, I think there are also, we sort of touched on them, but there are also lots of very storied print shops, particularly in the US that, you know. If there was a sort of generational transition there, that could be interesting.

36:23 Two print shops recently came together, Brand X and Paste Prints in the US. And I think there are, would always be interested if there are sort of opportunities, particularly with, these storied print houses and amazing master printers and sort of deep pedigree of working with the world's greatest artists.

36:46 But yeah no immediate plans but it's only up into that.

36:49 Yeah and you spoke earlier about working with like you were working and still work with ultra contemporary artists so to a certain extent you're supporting kind of grassroots artists that you know not obviously creating print editions is a good place for some of them to start as well in terms of you know making a living out of making art but you're also obviously thinking about who's the new buyers and i i know this is where where your your your relationship with museums you're realizing it's quite an aging donor base uh and obviously that's not made offensively you know but you do have to think about you know millennials and gen z coming up there there's been a lot of work and surveying i was involved in one for sotheby's on looking at the uh

37:36 you know that wealth um transfer that has been going on over the last few years it's quite it's a big deal in the art world uh Georgina Adam has just produced a book on this transfer of wealth. So I know you've done a new generation survey as evidence for this argument that you've got to bring new, younger generations of donors into museums.

38:01 So what about, is that also, that presumably just dovetails in with your business as well, that kind of museum work and seeing what new generation is going to want. You're also thinking about what kind of art, they like and what they want.

38:16 Yeah, exactly. You know, I think it was, you know, this is sort of this recent, survey was the third that we've done. It's a sort of annual, it's annual thing. But the first where we've really, well, two things focused on institutions and the overlaps between this sort of new generation and institution specifically, but then also looked out beyond our own community and tried to sort of, you know, be conscious of the bias that you could have if you were just looking within, you know, the urban art audience.

38:46 And I think, yeah, I think that focus has come off the back of building a museum program and getting, you know, being at that intersection between sort of new collectors and institutions and what the, you know, what the challenges and the blockers have been for them building direct relationships and what the opportunities could be over time. And I think, you know.

39:09 The more time that we've spent in that area, the more optimistic we are about the potential for this new generation to be a sustainable source of income and support for the arts than ever before. And yeah, to your point, the sort of insight work that we're doing around it, there's a sort of ongoing program that we want to sort of build with institutions to help close the gap between, these audiences and the institutions that we work with.

39:39 But there's also the program of partnering with institutions and raising near-term funds for them and hopefully building longer-term connections with potential supporters over time.

39:52 Yeah, no, and just moving on now to your appointment as trustee of the National Portrait Gallery. That's literally this year, I think, wasn't it? Earlier this year?

40:03 Yes, yeah, exactly.

40:05 So, and you're advising on their digital and commercial strategies, and you also sit on the National Portrait Gallery's trading company board. So could you say what that role actually involves day to day? How does sitting on the board of a national institution change how you think about the commercial side of your business? because we all know that National Portrait Gallery is a not-for-profit gallery.

40:28 And yet, we have seen all of our public museums necessarily having to seat not just new patrons and business partners, but also creating National Gallery. They have a National Gallery business, which is the income coming from renting out conference rooms, the shops, the cafes, the restaurants. And, you know, it's very interesting seeing the way in the new millennium that that that public sector model has changed and had to adapt, you know.

40:56 So maybe you could just talk a little bit about that relationship between what you're doing there and your your your business, your commercial work.

41:03 Yeah. I mean, the day-to-day is, you know, it's relatively flexible. I think that the sort of most interesting work there is relatively flexible. I think there are sort of the formal moments of board meetings and enterprise board or trading board meetings. But I think probably the most interesting work is done outside of those forums.

41:27 And it could be, you know, we are hiring for a new chief operating officer and I'm, working very closely on the on the sort of nominations committee for that role you know we are, transforming the way that we think about you know marketing and the return on investment of being able to drive you know exhibition ticket buyers and and you know through to.

41:51 Yeah thinking about you know the the exhibition strategy and the framework by which you know exhibitions you know can help to support all of the different aims of the organization so it's been I mean it's been fascinating for me and I've really, enjoyed it it is a you know there's a as with anything interesting there's an infinite amount that that you could do so I could be spending more than you know 100% of my time on the MPG for sure, I think that you know it is probably emphasized in terms of the sort of overlap between my work with M&R and, you know, that sort of insight from the MPG role, I think it's probably emphasized the sort of, as you were saying, the necessity for, our institutions to diversify their income streams, to build resilience in those

42:43 income streams by speaking to a new generation of potential donors, you know, so all of these things, I think we sort of. We knew to some extent and we're building, you know, we're building sort of ways that we, we could be helpful with, with that background. But I think it's really, it's really sort of underlined, you know, the need across the sector for, for those things.

43:07 And I think, you know, I think what, what I'm particularly interested in is where those, you know, those potential different streams of new income can overlap. So, you know, for example, you know, if we have an individual giving program... At the MPG, how are those people stewarded into major patronage over time, into being encouraged to leave a legacy?

43:37 What does the sort of, you know, if we have an additions program, for example, this is sort of a direct overlap with the work at Alvinar, if we have an additions program, how do we see that not just as, a source of income, but also a source of communication with new audiences? And how do we use that as a wedge into a much broader relationship with the people that are buying editions who could become members and patrons over time.

44:03 So yeah, that's probably where it's underlined the importance for me.

44:08 And obviously Elizabeth Payton is a great one to select because of her subject matter, which a lot of the younger generation people will identify with. So that's smart, I think. Yeah at the same time a great artist and a great portraitist you know i was just thinking so so away from avonart you've you've had a long run on arts non-profit board so you had eight years on national youth orchestra board obviously presumably connected with your interest in music and you sat on the three-person panel appointed its new chair 11 years as a trustee of the london contemporary orchestra where you helped mediate the leadership issues i was just going to ask you what was the hardest situation like governance situation

44:53 maybe you could think of an example that you had to navigate in either of those non-profit board roles and what did it teach you about board effectiveness in arts organizations more broadly and you know presumably taking this on to the National Portrait Gallery

45:06 Yeah yeah so I mean I think it was probably the the situation that you've referred to at the LCO. So the LCO is a fantastic organization with incredible cultural output, I think is one of, very few in the classical music sector that are really sort of bridging between new audiences and the sort of, you know, the excellence of classical music playing.

45:35 I think, you know, over time, you know, there were sort of, there were challenges between, you know, co-artistic directors who had sort of grown apart over time. And, you know, there was sort of, you know, yeah, there were there were meaningful, challenges in how to sort of you know keep the the focus on, you know the best interests of the organization whilst having these sort of two different constituents of of personal interest and i think i think probably what it underlined to me, you know which which i hope doesn't sound too obvious but it's just that the, an organization at any scale is really governed by its people and relationships and i think that was an organization where, you know there wasn't enough proactive investment while the sun was shining

46:25 in those relationships and therefore when they came under pressure there wasn't a base of of sort of you know, mutual understanding and open communication and you know you're really you know when when things are suddenly tougher for whatever reason you're yeah you're in a you're in a tough spot trying to sort of build the foundations of a really robust relationship.

46:49 So I think that probably the thing that it underlined for me is, yeah, fixing the roof or sort of proactively building foundations around the key relationships in an organization whilst you don't need to.

47:05 Yeah, I mean, just speaking to you, I think all of our listeners as well will agree that one of your strengths is you've got great emotional intelligence. And presumably that's very important when you're sitting on these boards where you've got different kind of interests. And we all know what kind of boards, you know, you see it in sport as well, don't you, in the cricket and the rugby.

47:26 And I think the problem is there's a lot of people clinging on to traditions that no longer suit this world. It's a little bit like, you know, museums in the 90s. They wouldn't have been seen dead, you know, they kept this. Any kind of business sponsorship was kept very, very under the table. And that has really, really had to change and it's changed.

47:48 But there's always a push against it. There's always people in there that, you know, art must remain art and mustn't be connected with the market. You know, I've had that throughout my career since I joined Southerners Institute, obviously. And now suddenly Courtauld is a rival to us doing an MA in art business.

48:05 You know, there's a lot of tensions between the standard art historical departments don't like talking about money. So I think something similar is going on there in these kind of generational shifts, if you like.

48:15 I think that's right. And, you know, I mean, I would philosophically, I would agree with the idea that a separation of church and state between the sort of commercial sector and the institutional sector that that you know would be amazing and i think for all of the obvious reasons we could.

48:29 Have sold it yeah

48:31 Yeah and you know we have seen the you know the erosion of public funding and, you know certainly in europe over the. Yeah, to keep things working and all of the amazing value that institutions are giving to people, you know, we need to find other routes. So I'm sort of, yeah, simultaneously aligned with the idea that ideally it would be, you know, that you would have that separation and we're not in that situation now. And so have to find, you know, yeah, different ways of operating, I think.

49:06 I mean, what you also said that sort of resonated with me was, you know, I think having, you know, boards can have very different purposes under the hood, I think. And I think, you know, we're probably also in a bit of a generational transition between boards that were, you know, board positions that were seen as recognition and where, you know, people would sort of turn up once every few months and, you know, want to pontificate the opinion and, you know, wait for everyone to listen to them and leave and never come back.

49:41 And I think what's exciting to me is that it feels like we're shifting into a place, which I think is really valuable, where board members feel like being elected is sort of the start of, the dialogue, is the start of the journey, a start of their work. And I think, you know, I think having the... Having the sort of awareness that people are coming to, you know, the executive team and the board are all coming with different sort of priorities and different, you know, emotional landscapes about this, you know, this forum and trying to sort of help bridge those, I think is valuable work.

50:19 Yeah, it must be really difficult. And just finally, we haven't spoken about the rest of the, you know, the global demand for art collecting, which again has risen exponentially in the new millennium so you know your greater china obviously japan and korea have reportedly been very fast growing markets for for your company avangar and south america as well so but maybe a smaller i've had this i've i've had students who from south america different countries in in south america who've done dissertations on this issue that the collector base needs growing there maybe you can say something about what you might be doing a you know about that is there any way you could grow the the latin american collector base there's very as you know there's very few

51:05 bricks and mortar commercial galleries in london i was one the other day in bermondsey with my students um not that much and we had the we had the last biennale which was global south with a with a brazilian you know director i mean how would you if you would how would you recommend that you go about building a collector base from a particular a geographical area I guess is what I'm saying rather than generation

51:31 Yeah I think I mean we're still working all of that out as well I think that sorry just give me one second.

51:38 No problem

51:40 Yeah, I think, yeah, as I say, we're still working on that. I think, you know, I think one thing that sort of feels pan-geographic is, you know, focusing on trying to introduce lots of new people into discovering art and artists before you ever sort of, start to think about getting them to collect. And so a lot of our work is still on storytelling and, you know, accessible entry points for people to discover art and artists that we think are important.

52:10 And then try and think about the nexus between that and their collecting journey. I think beyond that, and beyond obviously working with the amazing group of artists that are coming out of Latin America, for example, which definitely we've seen has driven collecting interest from those geographies. I think there are some obvious things that we're working on, like localization and trying to speak to people in their language.

52:40 But, you know, I also think, you know, I also think that that we probably, you know, we know that there's huge opportunity with the global south because there are so many culturally engaged people and being able to sort of offer accessible opportunities to collect is really important. And there are still tons of people in, you know, in North America and in London who don't feel like collecting is for them because it feels sort of distant.

53:06 And so we're sort of, you know, trying not to do that thing of putting all of the focus on a sort of shiny new geography and trying to think about what the opportunities are, you know, to bring people into collecting across the board.

53:20 No, that's absolutely right. But I realized that we've reached the end of the hour, Mazdaq. So I'd just like to, I know that all the listeners are going to love this. And I'd just like to thank you for giving up an hour of your time. And it's been really enjoyable talking to you. And it's great to know that there's someone out there who has that kind of sensibility, sensitivity, you know, to be able to work with different kinds of people on board.

53:44 So it's such a skill to be able to do that. So thank you very much for sharing all of your business and your philosophical ideas, if you like, you know.