EP 287: How to scaffold "accepting no"

2:15 So when your kid's behavior is baffling and yours is too, sometimes yeah. I know. Let's take a break from all the babozle here on the baffling behavior. Hey everybody, welcome. Maybe this is welcome back to another episode of the Baffling Behavior Show. I know that, especially with the Guided Journal just coming out, we have lots of new folks discovering the podcast and tuning in.

2:48 So super glad that you're here. Y'all, this episode is one of the episodes that's going to be really packed with information and lots of like practical tips. So this might be an episode you listen to more than once, or you head to the website and check out the transcript, or come and join us in the club because we can then help take all of the information I'm going to offer you in this episode and really make it something that could be implementable.

3:22 Is that the right word for you in your family? So one of the absolute most common frustrations, complaints, um, things that leave parents feeling super, super overwhelmed. You know, when I look back over, you know, the course of the last 20 plus years that I've worked with parents and families, almost all of our frustrations with our kids can come down to some form of how difficult it is for our kids to accept a limit or hear a no, or for something fun that they're doing to end, or to tolerate a feeling of disappointment, which is of course a part of accepting no or frustration tolerance.

4:21 So, so so many behaviors that we see. If we really broke down, like what's really happening here, the ability to be okay when not okay, right? When feeling disappointed, when feeling like I don't want to do this other not fun thing when I'm already doing something fun, or I really want this thing and you're not letting me have it, right?

4:46 There's so much in all of those experiences that are really about frustration tolerance, being okay with just being okay, not being okay. And you know, I think that another thing that makes having a child who doesn't do well hearing the word no, another thing that makes that hard is this is a place we judge other parents about, I think pretty intensely.

5:17 There's something in our culture that has essentially decided it's it's basically morally superior to not express disappointment. There's this like bootstraps mentality that goes along with, you know, the superior way of just, you know, never expressing a negative feeling like disappointment or not getting what you want.

5:42 Right. There's this way that we've we've but we've been taught to believe that, you know, when you when you don't get what you want, the the the moral again, like it's like a moral superiority thing, I think, is to just be okay with it. Um now, without question, a lot of behaviors that come out of not having a lot of frustration tolerance or not accepting no, some of the behaviors that come out of that are absolutely not okay.

6:15 But there's nothing like, you know, morally superior to being able to act as though, you know, not getting what you want is just no big deal. And I do think that that's something that's communicated both implicitly and explicitly, uh, culturally, as even like from when we were kids. And certainly as we're judging other parents, there is this big heaping of judgment that gets tossed onto parents whose kids seem to be quote unquote spoiled.

6:57 Or yeah, I think that, yeah, like spoiled, you know, like whenever they don't get what they want, they throw a huge fit. And we've decided that that means they're spoiled, and we have a lot of judgment about that for that kid and that parent. But y'all, like childhood is like one big no after another.

7:19 Kids want to do all sorts of things, they want to have all sorts of things. Kids want all sorts of things that for a myriad of reasons they can't have. It might be not safe, it might be not time, it might, I mean, there's so many reasons why kids want something and can't have the thing that they want.

7:39 I mean, that's kind of life in general. But as adults, we have slightly more agency in many ways about, you know, getting that thing we want or adjusting things so that we can have what we want or things like that. I mean, kids just don't have a lot of agency in that. And life is one big like not getting what you not getting what you want.

8:02 All humans are going to experience a no, like a thwarted reach, right? Like wanting something, wanting to do something, wanting to have something, has this like energetic reach. Like, I want, right? There's like this, yeah, that's the best way I can say it. There's like energetic reach. And when you don't get that thing you want, there is like a thwarting of that energetic reach.

8:38 And that is always gonna be experienced as humans by uh as a cue of danger. Now, for kids with a more sensitized stress response system, vulnerable nervous system, those cues of dangers. No, that doesn't need to be both plural. Those cues of danger are just so much more likely to tip that kiddo's nervous system into protection mode, right?

9:03 And then not just tip them into protection mode, but send them like careening down the protection mode pathway. So there's uh no you can't in a million different kinds of ways. Kids are hearing no, you can't. And as we develop, as we grow and develop, as our brains grow and develop, as our stress response system grows and develops, all these things, we develop more capacity to be okay when we are one, not okay, and two, when we aren't getting what we want.

9:34 There's a bit of a like this, it's like a developmental skill, right? And some folks achieve this skill faster than others. It's really about regulation. And many of us now as adults, again, we're so accustomed to not getting what we want or not being able to do what we want that we internally regulate through that boundary or that limit or that thwarting without even noticing.

10:04 It's just like a part of life. And that's a sign of, you know, well-strengthened regulatory circuits, right? It's not that those limits eventually become not a cue of danger. It's that our, you know, as regulation grows, we're we're again we're regulating through these things, but not even noticing. And then sometimes we do notice and we have a disappointed experience or a really like, ugh, this is a real bummer.

10:35 And we express that, but also still like regulate through it and then move on. So it's not that having a no or a limit or a boundary isn't a cue of danger to basically everybody. It's that some folks have better capacity to regulate through that than others. Now, luckily for all of us, I believe we could basically scaffold everything.

11:04 I think we can scaffold things that are really obvious to scaffold, like riding a bike, driving a car, but I also think we can scaffold these things like frustration tolerance, being able to accept no. Um, one of the things we've talked about in the club recently that we can scaffold is um tolerating the hard feelings that come along with reflecting on something you did that wasn't okay.

11:31 And there is a skill stack underneath that. And there is a skill stack underneath accepting no. And identifying that skill stack is so wildly important because one, it helps us see how complex this skill really is. And I think that opens us up to some compassion. It also, we can then identify which are the aspects of this particular skill set that our child needs support with.

12:03 And then we can be relatively strategic about doing that and doing that in a way that is sequential and is building off developmental achievements, I guess, for lack of better words. Like once you, you know, once one skill is sort of uh well scaffolded, then we can move on to the next one and we can do that in a sequential way.

12:31 It's not perfectly sequential, but it helps to keep this framework in mind. It helps us become less overwhelmed. And yeah, it helps us feel more compassionate to our kids. Like, oh my gosh, of course they are struggling with this when you look at the depth of the things that are required to be okay when you don't get what you want.

12:51 Okay. So again, we scaffold all sorts of things for our kids. We scaffold helping them ride a bike, we scaffold them doing homework independently, we scaffold them learning to drive, we scaffold them doing chores independently, we scaffold, uh we scaffold eating solid food, right? And for the most part, with what I could broadly say, like kind of typically developing children, tip kids who kind of develop inside like that bell-shaped curve of you know what we would expect, we don't even really notice that we're scaffolding these things.

13:29 It's just sort of implicit. And it's also kind of implicit in the slow way we reduce our support or reduce co-regulation and increase the expectation for our kids. These things just kind of happen naturally. We don't we're not really thinking super strategically about it. Unless we have a child who is, you know, kind of developmentally delayed, then we do in whatever skill it is we're talking about, then it is helpful to kind of look at like, well, what are what is the skill stack here?

14:00 And where is the piece that we really need to support or really need to scaffold? Okay, we can scaffold, I really believe we can scaffold basically everything. Now, is that child going to receive our scaffolding? I have no idea. But is it possible to break down basically every single skill and look at the components that are associated with it and then work on those components?

14:29 Yes, absolutely, including frustration tolerance, including accepting no. I mean, I could identify about a dozen different owl brain skills that go along with what we would call frustration tolerance or being able to accept no. And I think laying them out like that, again, it can really help us um break down what could feel like a very overwhelming task.

16:13 When our kids have enormous reactions to what we would objectively call a relatively small stressor, not getting what they want, something like that, what we can assume is that there are probably a lot of aspects of that specific skill stack that just aren't there yet. I mean, doesn't that just change everything when we think like, oh, being able to be okay when you don't get what you want is a skill.

16:41 And there are a lot of skills inside that skill. And if a kiddo doesn't have a lot of those skills, well, then of course they aren't able to regulate through a no or a disappointment. Okay, so let's touch on what some of those skills are. Now we don't have like four hours to really dive into this. So we're not gonna touch on every single one, and we're also not diving into them quickly, but I or I'm sorry, not gonna dive into them intensely.

17:10 Um, but I want to highlight some of them again, so we can kind of see wow, there's a lot going on here in what we would have ultimately call frustration tolerance. Okay, so there are regulation and nervous system skills, there are relational and attachment skills, there's kind of time and language skills, there's agency, future orientation skills.

17:36 So in the regulation and skills section, there's the uh ability to tolerate a bad feeling without the nervous system instantly going outside its window of tolerance. Okay, being more okay with not being okay. Right. There's also a felt sense in the body, not just a cognitive knowing, but a felt sense in the body that bad feelings do come to an end.

18:05 And for most of her kids that are having huge, huge, huge reactions to what we would call teeny tiny stressors, most of you who are listening to this podcast, when a bad feeling comes into the body intensely, it is often accompanied with the felt sense that this bad feeling will now be here forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

18:26 That's a hard thing for a kid to articulate. And when I think about all my clinical experiences and the work I've done with kids in the play therapy room and the grown-ups that I've known, that is often a felt sense of a very overwhelming bad feeling, is that this bad feeling is here to stay and it will never end.

18:46 Okay. Um, another skill I'd put in, and some of these skills belong in multiple categories, but in like the regulation uh skill category is having a pause between like an impulse and an action, right? Having a moment of, I would really like to do this. And then, hmm, I don't know if that's the best thing I should do, right?

19:13 For all sorts of reasons. Right. That is a regulatory skill, that pause there. Um, the ability to access the what I would call internalized co-regulation of a caregiver when the caregiver isn't right there. So that's ultimately what we call self-regulation, right? The internalization of all of the co-regulation that's been, you know, accumulated over the life that could then leave the brain with access to the regulation skills that are in the owl brain.

19:46 Okay. And that's another skill. If we think about relational and attachment skills, some skills that are necessary for being able to tolerate no is being able to interpret no as something other than you don't love me or you're being mean to me. And that is often true of the kids I work with. Not getting what they want feels in their bodies like you hate me, or you're doing it feels personal, like you're doing this on purpose to be to me, mean to me.

20:15 There is also the skill of being able to trust that a relationship can survive a rupture of not getting what's wanted. So it and that it can survive the rupture on both ends. One, I could ever like you again ever in my life, even though you've not given me what I want, right? Like that's a relational skill to believe that it will be true.

20:37 Like, even though I'm not getting what I want and you're making me very mad, our relationship's gonna be okay in the future. Okay. And there's that's a skill to have essentially, like in the body. Um and also if this person doesn't give me what I want, that they will like me again in the future, essentially.

20:58 Okay. Because it there's so much of it that can be tied to if again, if you don't give me what I want, it's because you don't like me or you don't love me or you just want to be mean to me on purpose. Um another important relational or an attachment skill in a tolerating no is having that felt sense that it can be okay to be um separate from your caregiver without it being dangerous.

21:23 And I don't necessarily mean separate like from a physical proximity standpoint, but like if I want something and you say no, I can't have that, that is me and you being two separate people, right? We are not in complete attunement and alignment with one another. And this actually is an attachment developmental milestone when we can hold the reality that, oh, we are different.

21:49 What I want and what you want are not the same. We're different. And that is okay. I maybe don't like it, but it is okay. Okay, that's a relational and attachment skill. Um, you know, the the ability to know that frustration, the felt sense of behav frustration, that that's more like information as opposed to an emergency or something that is permanently dangerous.

22:21 That also actually could be a relational or attachment skill, depending on our kids' history of um, you know, relational or attachment ruptures or trauma. Now, as I I hope have been clear, like if your child is struggling with frustration tolerance, I'm not telling you all of these things are true for them.

22:43 I am essentially giving you a list of all the things that are involved in being able to tolerate no and have some frustration tolerance. That doesn't mean everything on the list is true for your particular kid. Okay. It but it helps us identify like what is like the missing skill or skills for my kid so that we can really work on those things and also, again, make it make sense that accepting no is so hard for them.

23:11 Let's see, what else? Um, time and language skills. So having words for feelings and being able to kind of access those words in the moment or closer to the moment. So not just being able to reflect afterwards on, like, yes, I was very mad, but to know in the moment, whoa, this feeling I'm having is mad.

23:32 Okay, that's an important part of regulating through that feeling. Okay. Um, let's see, what else? Believing that not getting what you want right now doesn't mean you're not gonna get it ever, ever, ever, ever. And that actually is a very common felt sense in the moment when somebody is highly dysregulated for not getting the thing that they wanted, there can be this felt sense of I will never get it ever again.

24:01 So there can be this again, this sense of I will always feel this bad forever and ever and ever, and I will never get that thing, and I will never get anything I want ever again. I think with accepting no, tolerating no, there is also a need to be able to um kind of hold on to a sense of the future well enough and long enough that it feels possible to make a plan and execute that plan.

24:31 So, like, no, I can't have that thing right now, but I could make this plan to get it in the future. And being able to believe in the possibility of that, like that there is a future and this thing could be worked on. That's also a big piece that goes into being able to tolerate and accept no. There are a lot of what I would call like agency skills as well.

24:59 So I think to accept no, people need to have a sense overall that they have some agency in life, that they have options, that they have choices, that again, they have some agency. They could make a plan, whether that be for the specific thing or kind of just in general, but feeling that sense of agency is an important aspect of being able to tolerate.

25:25 Not getting what you want. And then if it's actually something that could be gotten in the future, just not right now, having the capacity to actually create a plan. Being able to execute that plan. Ask later, ask in a different way. Find an alternative to that thing that is acceptable, right? These are all skills.

25:48 Being able to negotiate or advocate for yourself from a regulated place. Find a way to compromise. That's a skill. Ooh, ooh, delayed gratification. Being okay with if I don't get this now, but I get it later, that that will be good too. Right? It's possible to get later. And when I get it later, it will feel as good as if I got it right now.

26:17 And that that's more than just kind of a cognitive skill, like to have that like real felt sense of the future is super, super important. Now, kind of something that's been involved in a lot of these different things I've just identified is the reality that the further down the watchdog or the possum pathway the nervous system is.

26:41 So like the the further away, the further away the owl brain has flown, the less access the brain has to the future.

26:59unknown Okay.

26:59 So the more dysregulated someone is, the further down the pathway, the further away the owl is, the more it feels true that only right now exists. So only right now exists and it feels like forever. Okay. Not right now feels like never. I understand that your child probably does understand what later means, but feeling the reality of later is an owl brain experience.

27:33 And once the owl brain has left, that the the possibility of later doesn't feel true anymore. It doesn't even feel like an option. We lose our sense of time the more and more dysregulated we get. There is no, you know, hour from now. You know, there's only right now. And if it if I don't get what I want right now, that can be felt as an emergency.

28:00 Now I know it looks like spoiled. I get that. And there is a neurobiological understanding to what's happening. And that doesn't mean we excuse the behavior. And now it's okay to throw this enormous tantrum in the middle of the store because you're not getting this thing that you want. Okay, we're not taking this information to go, oh, well, since my kid can't understand what later is, then I just have to give them this thing right now.

28:30 No, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. But if we understand what is happening for our child and not that they're just being spoiled, that gives us such different capacity to offer co-regulation and frankly to still set the boundary, because actually setting the boundary and holding the boundary is really important for the nervous system to learn oh, I can have a really big feeling and be okay.

28:56 It can feel like I'll never get what I want ever again, but that feeling isn't true. All of those things that we want to help grow and support in our kids will mean that they're gonna need to have some experiences where instead of just having the expectation dropped or, you know, not having the no enforced, that the no remains enforced, and the co-regulation and the support through it is actually what gets increased.

29:27 And of course, co-regulation doesn't mean like dropping the stressor. Right now, you've probably noticed that in order to be with our kids in a way that will help them develop these skills means we need to have some increased regulation. We need to have, you know, some skills as well. There's a skill stack for us.

29:55 Tolerating our kids' dysregulation, staying present, offering co-regulation without changing the boundary, changing the limit, changing the expectation. That's a skill. And also being able to differentiate between the two. Like when is the moment to like decrease the expectation, decrease the stress versus when is the moment to not decrease the stress, but instead to increase support or co-regulation?

30:22 That that's a skill too. And you got to be pretty regulated to be able to kind of distinguish between the two. So in order for our kids to develop these skills, we have there's a skill stack, of course, for us, right? I mean, tolerating other people's judgment, for example, knowing other people think something about us because our kid is acting a certain way, tolerating that judgment, I mean, that's a skill, right?

30:51 Um believing in our goodness and our competency as a parent is a skill. Like believing that our kid can struggle this badly and it's not our fault, right? So kind of um putting a wedge in the belief that good parents don't have kids who act like this. Right. And then, of course, we have a lot of the same kind of skill needs that our kid has, right?

31:18 Like if we are getting super dysregulated, I can almost guarantee that we're having a similar sense as our kids do, which is like, oh my gosh, this terrible feeling will never go away and it's gonna last forever. That that's just something that comes along with intense dysregulation. And being able to feel intense dysregulation while also hold on to the truth, this won't last forever.

31:43 That's a very, very normal skill to have to work on. Now, when I say skill, I hope it's very clear. I don't necessarily mean some sort of cognitive skill that we can just like give a worksheet for and work on. I mean, we can, you know, do that in some ways, but these are also like skills that the brain develops because of relational support, because of co-regulation.

32:13 Right. So we can't necessarily go out and just quote unquote learn these skills. In fact, a lot of people do have these skills when they're in their owl brain. What they don't have is the transferring of those skills to like at more and more higher levels of activation. And we can actually do both. We can increase the capacity to stay more connected to the owl brain, even as getting more dysregulated, right?

32:43 There's a there is a way to practice tolerating being more okay when we're not okay. And then there's also, of course, the the quote unquote skill of slowing down how dysregulated we get and our kids get based on a uh smaller stressor. So as much as there is a skill stack for your child and being okay with not being okay, frustration tolerance, accepting no, being okay with disappointment, as much as there's a skill stack for that, there's also, of course, a skill stack for us because it is very, very, very hard to stay regulated enough, not calm, not giving in, not even active soothing, right?

33:34 Like staying regulated doesn't mean we stay connected always to like validating or oh my gosh, this is so hard, right? There's a time and a place for that, of course, but sometimes co-regulation is this is the boundary, and I'm not changing it. And I will be here while you're having a very intense negative reaction to that.

33:59 And I will stay present through that. Um, and I will work, you know, to be as okay as possible through that. Like that's sometimes the co-regulation that that we're really talking about. And that's really, really, really hard. So growing our kids' capacity to be okay, not being okay, to tolerate accepting no, comes alongside us also developing the skill of essentially the same thing, right?

34:27 Can I be okay when I'm not okay? Because I'm not okay when my kid is freaking out, and that makes sense, right? So, can I develop more capacity to stay with that before getting completely dysregulated myself? So, y'all, this is complex, right? Like, I mean, I knew it was complex. I know it's complex, and I wrote an outline to this episode and I knew all the pieces that were gonna go into it.

34:51 And still, like in this moment, I'm like, whoa, wow, there's a lot going on here, right? And that is bringing up something I've been thinking about a lot lately, which is just in general, like how complex we all are, and how much parenting advice or parenting expertise is offered, especially in places like on social media, without anywhere close to this level of nuance, right?

35:21 Like there's a three-minute reel or a three-minute TikTok or a 10-second reel. And there are folks who are offering parenting advice in this very like black and white, all or nothing. This is right, this is wrong kind of a way. And then, of course, that's how it's landing and how we're receiving it. And how just completely impossible that is.

35:49 Right? Like almost no, including this podcast. I work really hard to be super nuanced and to explore all aspects of things and to be really clear like there's no right answer. Work really hard at that. And then also, there's also the reality that folks who are listening, I don't know you. And I can't be with you and work through all of this and how it applies to your specific family, right?

36:20 There is just so much nuance. I mean, if 10 kids have difficulty accepting no, all 10 of them need support around different parts of the skill stack, right? I mean, it might be true that they all need the same thing. I guess we could pretend that that could be true, but then they're all gonna be in different stages of where they are with developing the skills in the skill stack, right?

36:45 So, what that's gonna mean is that some kids are in a place where like they need to hear fewer no's. Some kids are in a place where they're gonna need more co-regulation and support as they experience the really intense dysregulation that comes from a no. And the parents and caregivers of those kids are also in a different stage of what they need.

37:04 It's so complex. And we are living in a time where we are trying to give people, and people are trying to receive, you know, these teeny tiny little sound bites of information and apply them as if they applied it to everyone. And I recognize the irony as somebody who also does support parents through these channels, right?

37:28 Through these podcasts. And someone on social media and I work really hard to stay super duper duper nuanced. And it's still hard. It's still really hard. What we're seeing is again, there's just no flow chart. I wish there was. Then we all could just watch TikToks all day long and everything would be better.

37:53 Um, and in fact, that's not true. And in fact, in some ways, I think thing that can there comes a point where that kind of throsses crosses this threshold and also often starts to make things harder. So, anyway, I'm just reflecting on that. Also, y'all, this is actually the whole point of the club. I mean, it's kind of bananas to me, but I think in December, January, I think the club actually did kick off on January 1st.

38:24 I think this will be our sixth year of the club, which is so oh my gosh, just so hard for me to wrap my brain around. And it is one of my many hopes and dreams for the club, which is that we can take this information and then help folks apply it to their unique situation and their unique family. And of course, it's not one-on-one work.

38:52 Um, but I think that there's a lot of aspects in the club that get close-ish to that experience without it being that experience. Um, you know, folks who are really active in the club get, yeah, I really get to know um these folks and and in some ways they're kids. In fact, I recently had a moment where I met a club member and, you know, I thought about how I've watched their kiddo grow up, although I have no idea what this child looks like or even what their name is, which I think is so fascinating.

39:26 Um, but one of my core beliefs about the club is a reality that information is not helpful if it's not applied contextually. And um, either learning all of that yourself so you can apply it contextually to yourself or having somebody support you with that, I think is so, so, so important. And if you are noticing that that's something you really use could use some support with, consider coming to join us in the club.

39:57 We would uh really love to have you. Also, over in the club, I have a skill stack that's all printed out, um, it's several pages long of exactly this accepting no, frustration tolerance. Um there's been a couple asked grabbing anything where we've really broken this down. Um, and we've also done this with a couple other things.

40:21 One for sure that's um at the top tip of my tongue is a skill stack for kids being able to tolerate you know, thinking about a negative feeling that happened, like being able to go back and talk about something bad that happened or a mistake that they made. There's a skill stack underneath being able to do that.

40:41 So when kids can't do that, it's not because they just, you know, don't want to or they just want to do whatever they want. It's that they don't have what they need to be able to, they don't have the skills and have the developmental skills to be able to talk about something hard without getting completely dysregulated.

41:02 Again, and again, there's a skill stack for that. We can kind of scaffold, we can scaffold those things. Um, so I think this episode's airing on a day that the club is actually opening for new members, I think. Um, this episode should be airing on October 6th, and that is a day we are opening the doors um to welcome new members for uh a week, Tuesday to Tuesday.

41:27 So if you would like some support or you'd like to explore some of these further, or you would like to try to figure out what the skill stack is for something else that's really hard for you or your kiddo, uh the club could be a really, really great place to that. We would absolutely love to have you.

41:44 And again, it's not just like what does our kid need? It's like what does our what do we need? And once we can kind of see that a little bit more clearly, it it reduces some of the overwhelm and then gives us something really practical to think about that we can actually work on. And I know when I was working with kids and families in the office, like that's such an important part of treatment planning.

42:06 These very complex kids and these very complex families, it's so easy to get lost in everything that's happening. It's so easy for everything to feel really big and really huge, and just like there's so much dysregulation that everything feels very complex and very hard to stay connected to this is what we need to do.

42:26 And that was such an important part of treatment planning. Like when I would get really overwhelmed, I'd go back and look at wait, what are we, what are we doing here? And this feels a little bit like that like a moment where we can pause when things are really big and really, really, really hard, being able to pause and kind of go back to, okay, but what are we actually doing here?

42:44 Oh, yeah, that's right. Okay, okay. That pulls the, I think, dysregulation down a bit. All right, y'all. I hope that this was helpful to you. I enjoyed prepping for this podcast and like really diving in and um making this outline. Sometimes me getting really bullet pointed um is exactly the kind of regulation that I need to be able to prepare for these things.

43:12 So I hope this was really helpful. And if it feels like it could be helpful to get some more support around um figuring these things out for your family, consider joining us over in the club. If you're a professional and you'd love to be able to support families doing this work, because we need more people out there helping families.

43:33 We need so many more people out there helping families. And so if you would like to work with families in this way, apply for the immersion program. It runs January to December, and so we have a few months left before um the 2027 cohorts kick off. So get that application in. Um, and so you can consider if joining the immersion program is what you want to do next in your professional life.

44:00 You can find all of this over at robingobel.com. And y'all, I will be back with you again next week.