EP 289: What Parents of Struggling Kids Need from their Support People with Rose LaPiere

2:15 So when your kids' behavior is baffling and yours is too, sometimes, yeah. I know.

2:21 Let's take a break from all the babozle here on the baffling behavior. Hey everyone, welcome. Welcome back to another episode of the Baffling Behavior Show. And if you um have been a listener of the show, or if you are a professional and you have trained with me before, then you probably are familiar with this guest that I'm bringing in, Rose Lapierre, who is my dear, dear, dear friend.

2:55 I mean, more than anything, Rose is my friend. And she is also my colleague. She is the co-leader in the immersion program. And so she teaches the evening cohort, the, well, it's the Eastern Time Zone evening cohort of the immersion program. Rose and I co-teach at this point so many things. I've been so blessed, truly so lucky to have Rose in my life.

3:21 And Rose and I have been chatting about the possibility of this episode for a while now. And so finally I said, Rose, we got to get this on the calendar. Let's do this. So, what Rose wanted to create as an episode for those of you listening, and then for those of you to give this episode to somebody else to listen to, this is an episode for your support people.

3:49 This is an episode that hopefully can help people in your life who want to support you feel more confident about the ways that they can offer support, knowing that that's a pretty wide variety for folks, right? Like some folks live far away and can't do much more than send a text that says, I'm thinking of you, and that's amazing.

4:12 Some folks can hear all about all the really hard things that are happening to you in your parenting journey, but they can't fix any of it. But what they can do is listen and be present and not be afraid, and that's amazing. Some folks can do practical things and they could come over and they could do a load of laundry or they could mow your lawn and that's amazing.

4:32 Some folks could come over and be a part of your family without necessarily specifically helping your kid or being with your kid. Maybe they come over and they have coffee or they have a chat or they're just standing in the kitchen connecting with you, uh, but they're not doing things specifically with your kid.

4:50 And then some folks can be a very specific supporter with your child. And they can do things with your kid or take your kid to do things, right? And then some folks have the great privilege of being in your family, being in your home when your child starts to have a big episode of dysregulation. And that can feel overwhelming to everybody, right?

5:15 All of a sudden, you know, we're parenting and a kid's really struggling, and now we feel like we're being watched. And maybe you're the support person, you're like, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do. This is awkward. And so we wanted to offer some suggestions on exactly that. What can you do that could be helpful?

5:32 But although the most important thing, of course, is to just actually ask to have the conversation, not in the moment of the dysregulation, some other time, but to actually make a plan for like, inevitably, you know, things are gonna go sideways while I'm spending time at your house. When that does happen, what would you like me to do?

5:48 What would be the most helpful thing to do? And then finally, I end um the episode talking specifically to folks who are in leadership roles in communities that parents are just so reluctant to lose, like church or faith-based, or spiritual communities. I know so many folks who feel like they can't take their child anymore to those spaces because their child doesn't have behaviors that are accepted in those spaces.

6:22 And that is such a tremendous loss for families who are already so alone and so isolated and so struggling. And so I end the episode really talking to those folks and suggesting ways that they may be able to make some adjustments so that struggling families can still continue to come and get the support and the connection and the community from these places that they have always received.

6:52 And that are such a huge loss if those spaces disappear from their lives due to their kids' behaviors. So please, please, if you um pick up this episode because that's you. You're a leader, you you're in a leadership role in a church community or um somewhere that creates community for families. Listen all the way to the end, please, because I am gonna talk to you directly at the end.

7:23 All right. Well, let's just get on with it, shall we? Rose, thank you for starting this Friday morning with me. This is gonna be a fun chat.

7:33 Yes, I'm so glad to be here. I feel you and I've had conversations about this, and it feels exciting to be able to come together and maybe give something to the community. One would be helpful.

7:46 Yeah, you know, one thing we say a lot in in both the club but also in the immersion program as we're training our students to support families as well is uh hard things are less hard when we do them when uh with other people. Whether those people are offering, you know, super practical support or not, simply having community makes hard things less hard.

8:15 But then, of course, actually having some practical support from folks is uh so helpful. So, so so helpful. Talk about what you're noticing now and how that doesn't feel quite as readily as accessible as it used to.

8:34 Yeah, I think that um the families that I see and even uh the stories I hear from friends or people in the community is just so much loneliness and isolation in um being in community with people that understand or have a sense of uh how to how to listen or how to be with them. I think it's not that this is quite a problem necessarily, but often what people say is like, oh, you should go see a therapist or you should go to therapy.

9:08 And I think that that's great because a long time in our culture we were not doing that and like, you know, kind of avoiding therapists, and it was bad to, you know, go see someone for help. I think though there's a there's a bit of a jump that happens in that it's scary for people to hold space for and be with people that are having a hard time because there is this sense of in our culture, right?

9:33 We're here in the US, I have to do something about this and fix this for the person.

9:37 Yeah.

9:38 And when I can't do that, well, then you need to go talk to somebody who can help you fix this and go do something about this. And I don't really think that's true. I don't, I don't think that we need to like fix the problem. You know, when you started with hard things are less hard, but we have people with us.

9:57 Um, having someone be able to just be with you in the heart, yeah, or just say, like, I see you. Even something like, you know, I wish I could say something that would um be able to help you, but I'm not even sure what to say. This is so devastating. I'm not even thinking about just kids who have big baffling behaviors.

10:18 I'm thinking about like lots of things, someone who had someone in their family who died, or someone who's just going through a season of like struggling financially in some way. And how can we just be with them and validate and know that that's actually the tool? That that is actually the thing. Someone feeling less alone by being seen would help them come back to themselves, would help them maybe just know oh, somebody gets it.

10:52 Um, I think I think that's so hard for people to do.

10:57 So excruciatingly hard. But I also think you and I have been, I'm gonna say lucky, but there's nothing terribly lucky about this to one have our own experiences, but also spend a lot of time with people who are having truly devastating and truly unfixable experiences. And we know those people in our personal life, but also in our professional life, of course.

11:25 I mean, I think that nothing has taught me more about this exact thing we're talking about. You know, not getting my master's degree, not all my years of training, you know, all of that stuff. I mean, nothing has taught me this more clearly than working with families of kids with such vulnerable nervous system, kids who are having behaviors that truly nobody really knows how to fix them or help them.

12:00 And even I would just always think like even in the ways that we do have some ideas, right, that the services to kind of implement those ideas, they don't even exist. So it's like this this unfortunate experience of like what you need doesn't exist. And if it does did exist, it's not accessible. And so it really be the only option really is to just accompany that person.

12:30 And it's so devastatingly hard to admit that that's true.

12:36 Yes.

12:36 And we're not great at it in a culture anyway. And when you're that parent or when you're that person in pain, it's really hard to articulate this is actually all I need from you.

12:49 Yes. Yes. And it even just feels like even just having a need as a person. Most of us, I feel like, are just so used to taking on and doing. And whether that's because of our the jobs we have, or maybe in for most of our life, we have been able to just take care of things and do, or that's what we've learned as little, you know, kids that that we had to like take care of ourselves and do.

13:14 Right. And then you get to a point where something happens in your life, or you have children that you're caring for that have needs that are beyond what you can just do. And there's can be so much shame in asking for help and in feeling like there must be something wrong with me because I need help, which makes us feel more lonely.

13:35unknown Yeah.

13:36 And then we become more isolated and we're less able to see possibilities of help. And even the things we talk about today may not seem, might might not be accessible to people either. But I I think there's something about having conversation of how that can be true. And also maybe someone listening who isn't in the state of having like so much chaos in their life can offer support to someone else or can reach out with a message in some way of just like, hey, you're doing a good job, and I know how hard this is, and I see you.

14:14 And if you want to have a cup of coffee or something to bridge this sense of connection, um I just think it's so important. And it's just really not talked about. I was even, you know, kind of Googling, like, of course, seeing like, oh, are there other podcasts that or places? I think the things that I've that come up for me um in places maybe that I've been trained where this is has come up is um through uh this anxiety training I did with having supporters, but their job sort of looks this very specific way, which is fine for that.

14:53 And then there's also like another program where it's maybe working more with like ADHD um kids and how people can be supportive in a way. Again, but this job being like very specific, which is okay, because sometimes supporters need to have what do I do actually when I'm with your kiddo. But I I think there's this balance between how do I support if I'm going to help a family and step in as a resource to maybe like play with their kid or or be another like supportive adult in a child's life.

15:27 And also how do I offer support to just the parent? Because maybe that will help be the life raft to the parent so that they can be a little more regulated to help support their kids.

15:39 So if I imagine that somebody listening could take this episode and actually ask somebody to listen to it, because it is so hard to say, here's what I need. I need help and here's how I need it. And so imagining the possibility of somebody saying, Could you listen to this episode?

15:59unknown Right.

15:59 So if we're thinking that maybe somebody who's maybe even never listened to the podcast before or who doesn't really know a lot about parenting kids with, you know, really out of control behaviors, what the one of the things I'm hearing you articulate as kind of like first and foremost is support people to, you know, for them to find a way to be okay with the reality that they aren't going to be able to fix this problem for this family.

16:29 Yes. That they don't probably have a treatment or a parenting technique or a supplement or a medication that this family has never heard of before. And that is painful. Like that is so painful to sit with somebody who is in, you know, this terrible devastating circumstances and to be in contact with kind of your own futility.

16:54 Like, I don't have a suggestion that is going to help this person. But actually acknowledging that is what's helpful.

17:03 Yes. Yeah. I think also the the opposite end of someone who thinks I have all the suggestions, listening to this episode. I'm hoping you're you're going to hear me kindly say, like, don't do that.

17:17 Yeah.

17:18 Don't offer suggestions.

17:19 Yeah.

17:20 For sure, you could ask and say, would it be okay? But I really would sort of hesitate to do that like so much later. And like when there's the person seems open and wanting and asking for it.

17:35 Yeah.

17:36 Because really what they need is for someone to be with them in the experience. And that means that validating and just saying how hard it is is actually the thing to do. Like if that's actually the one thing somebody walks away with today. Totally.

17:52unknown It's not.

17:54 Don't give advice.

17:56 Yeah.

17:56 And um also it's okay to acknowledge like I would like to give you advice, but I also know like that might not be helpful because I heard that on a podcast. Right. Even if you're not sure why. Like, I'm just gonna try this out. Sometimes I ask parents, and I do like meeting, I'll do like meetings with support people and parents, and we kind of like have this conversation really directly.

18:24 And I think it just helps sometimes for families to feel like, oh, someone could facilitate this idea with talking about how can people support my me in my family and help me regulate through how hard this is. Yeah. Which made me come up with this idea to talk to you about of just like, how can we like bring this out to more people?

18:44 Yeah. So, number one, be okay with you can't fix this problem for this family. Yeah, you know, the families who are listening to this podcast, and if you're listening, you know, because somebody was so vulnerable and asked you to listen to this episode, this is a family who has already tried everything.

19:02 There, there is no, almost certainly there's no piece of advice that is gonna make this family go, oh my gosh, I'd never thought of that. I will try it. And I and we understand it is so well-meaning. And often when we're offering advice, there's kind of a little bit of both. Like it's really well-meaning, but it's also a way that we're rescuing ourselves from feeling uncomfortable with not knowing what to do.

19:27 And I that is such a gift, I think, for somebody to be willing to be that vulnerable to say, I have no idea what would be helpful. I I've I've never experienced anything like what you're experiencing right now. It sounds awful, and I don't know what would be helpful for you. That would be so helpful.

19:53 Yes, yes. There's wisdom in that, yeah, that I think that um we we overlook, but I know when I've been on the receiving end of that, just how seen I feel. Yes. And how I'm able to kind of walk towards myself a little bit more because there's this sense of like, oh, I'm not crazy. There's nothing wrong with me because actually this person doesn't know what to do either.

20:21unknown Right.

20:22 Right. So it's okay that it's hard for me. There's something, there's some kind of like okayness about hence the feeling of often that we I'm sitting with with parents is the shame of how this thing is so hard, or how somehow like we've impacted our kids in a way that's really hard. And I don't know how what else to do.

21:56 I don't have I, you know, a lot of our parents don't have any more capacity to do something more than what they're doing it with it existing. And so, how can we come to them to be able to uh extend a hand in just like, you know, I'm with you, I see you, you can call me. We, you know, like, or if someone's reaching out, like being able to have a supporter to be able to know we can connect, maybe for 30 minutes, just to hear a voice of someone.

22:30 It isn't that the person's doing something, except just being with them and hearing their voice of just like, it's okay. I see you. Like it's not okay what's happening, and also it's okay.

22:42 Right, I'm not afraid of it.

22:44 Yeah, I'm not afraid of it.

22:46 Yes. Yeah, yeah. I know fo so many folks in the club are you know regularly talking about how like one of the things that's so helpful about the club is people get it there, and a lot of people in their regular life just don't get it. And it can start to feel really exhausting to explain it and to have to go through that whole cycle of the like kind of horror that people have, and the, you know, just like do that whole cycle all over again with a new person.

23:12 And I also think there is a reality of the fact that when your life is touched by these really hard and frankly very unique circumstances, like parenting a child with this intensity of behaviors. It the reality is you're probably not gonna find a lot of people in real life who are like, oh, I totally get it, me too.

23:33 Yes, yes. And so we were we're gonna need people who can say, I don't get it at all. And I am totally willing to be here with you, hear what you're saying, not offer advice and believe you. Right, right.

23:53 Yeah, it's it's making me think about how I think you know what comes up for me is of grief and loss, right? Someone who has had somebody die, whether it's a parent or maybe a child, for sure in their family. And people don't many people don't have a lived experience of that. And so it can feel so hard to feel like I can be with this.

24:22 Um, that's where I sometimes get phone calls from actual like help, like supporters, I would say, people extended family members, like grandparents, maybe, where they're like, you know, this parent needs therapy, or even this child needs therapy. And I'd say also, like, again, like maybe, maybe that is true.

24:42 But also if they don't want it, this is where I feel like holding this in mind. What are ways that we in the community can be with and offer support in a way of just like I see you, of whether that's even bringing a dinner over without a person having to ask. I think this is the thing. People will often ask, and of course, I'm gonna name like I have a lived experience of loss and being in really hard places of having um incongruence with other people, not understanding and also not being able to articulate either until many years later of thinking about what I needed.

25:23 But the the The sort of things that I notice in my clinical experience of practice and this the lived experience I have is not having to ask people for the thing to do. That when someone could just say, Hey, I'm gonna come over, I have an hour free. I'm just gonna come over and watch the baby and you can go rest or go out, would that be okay?

25:46 Or I'm gonna come over and do your laundry for an hour. And is that okay? Kind of like offering, I'm going to the food store. I know your kids like Oreos or whatever, and I'm I'm going to pick you up something. Tell me what you need.

26:02 A hundred percent. And I'm even hearing uh in my own mind, I'm hearing the language, the words kind of like, I'm coming over to do your laundry. That probably feels mortifying to you, but try to set that aside. I'm I do laundry all the time. I do, I do my laundry, I do my kids' laundry, I do my partner's laundry, and I can do your laundry too.

26:21 So just try to set aside the fact that that probably feels mortifying. I'm coming over, I'm doing your laundry, right? So, like, kind of like head off that. What is, you know, I think a really human response. And all we have to do is pause and think like, what would what would my experience be if somebody offered this to me?

26:39 And then just kind of name it and be like, but I can I I can tolerate that for you. I can tolerate the fact that you're probably going to be mortified by that and I'm coming to do it anyway.

26:50 Right. Because I think like some of the some of the clinical like experiences over the years have been it would be impossible in some circumstances for a supporter to step in and actually hang out with the kid. Exactly. Like that could is a great idea. And in no way am I saying, like, yes, that would be so lovely if maybe the kiddo would go on the swing on the backyard with you and you could create some kind of relationship with them.

27:13 But if that's not possible because of some circumstance, whether it's big baffling behaviors, medical challenge, like the the anxiety is so severe with separation that it's just not possible, there are other things we can do to like back up and say, like, how can we see that this person grown up is suffering and step in as a community to offer things that they don't need to ask for and also could be really hard, like you're saying, to notice that they might need help in and that I can just do because I do these things too.

27:51 I need these things too.

27:53 I am remembering a moment this past summer where we knew a family whose one of the adults had an enormous surgery and it was immune compromised because of the medical experience and all this stuff. And um, of course, a lot of us were thinking, like, okay, what could we do to be supportive? But also there's a lot of limits to what we can do because of the immune compromising, all that kind of stuff.

28:19 And I just had a moment, I also knew that this family they didn't do a lot of cooking and meal preparation, even in you know, easy times. And so, and I don't cook either. And so I had a moment of thinking to myself, what would be helpful to me, even more than just getting a meal dropped off, which would be amazing.

28:39 And we'll do that too. Uh, I don't cook, my husband cooks. Um, but I was like, what would what in this situation, what would I really love? And I was like, you know what? I'd really love to have easy, relatively healthy, quick food that I could grab and eat. And so we grilled like a huge pack of chicken breasts, like the one a big, huge family-sized pack, put it on the grill, popped it all in the freezer, and now the you know, they had something they could you just easily reach for that could be a filling meal that was somewhat healthy.

29:14 Um, and it just took me a second to go, what would be helpful for me in that situation? Like, I don't need a hot meal delivered every day, but it'd be great to have something simple to reach for. And again, there was hardly nothing I could really do to help this family, but man, they were over the moon.

29:35 Like they raved about this. Yes.

29:38unknown Yes.

29:39 I mean, I can remember going through my hard moments and getting a delivery um from someone who uh who one of my favorite uh treats of desserts. And I don't know that this person knew me that to know that, but it was it's a Lebanese uh dessert. And um, he had sent me stacks of boxes of this dessert as an offering.

30:05 And what was so like kind about that when also when we're eating food that's brought from someone else, it's just like we're thinking of them. Yeah, we're thinking of this other person who cares about me. Yes, that's offering me something. But you're right in that food is like one way that we have an offering.

30:21 And I think people don't think about how can I be of service? Like being of service not only is is like good for the other person, but it's good for me. Absolutely it's so good for me. Like I feel less alone when I send someone a message just saying, Hey, I'm thinking of you, but you're on my mind, and I know things are hard, and I I don't know what to say except I love you, or that I'm just thinking of you, right?

30:49 And sending a funny gif or whatever.

30:51 I'm thinking of all the moments we've done that in our relationship.

30:57 Because we are both managing our own fascinating level of chaos that we can do nothing to help each other with.

31:05 One we really couldn't, even if we were next-door neighbors, we could hardly do anything except for a baby break a meal or something like that. But we're not next-door neighbors, and so like these moments where we're just sending. I mean, you just sent me one like the day before yesterday, I think, right?

31:20 Just like, I'm just thinking of you and grateful. And you know, how just sending those little moments back and forth is this moment of like, yeah, you crossed my mind. I know you need support. And that when you know that about someone else, that you you entered into their mind when you weren't there, super meaningful.

31:43 Yeah, super meaningful. I feel like it can unlock maybe a drip of the loneliness that the person is feeling as they're experiencing their world, and like I don't feel seen and nobody gets me, and feeling more isolated and having a moment where where someone does see you in a message, an act of service that we're offering to someone is this mutual, reciprocal um feeling inside of just like the possibility of something of someone feeling seen.

32:14 Yeah. One of the questions I'm um often asking folks, and it's in the parent course that, you know, the raising kids with big baffling behaviors parent course, and it's in the new guided journal, is is you know, who do you have in your life who is able to be with like all parts of you without judgment?

32:34 Right. So like the part of you that calls and says, I can't take this anymore, or, you know, I wish I'd never become a parent, or I wish this kid would go live somewhere else forever and ever. Like these really huge feelings. Who could you say those things to and have that person like not flinch, not judge you and and stay with you long enough because eventually we do regulate and kind of come back to you know, feeling grounded and like who is that person who will stay with you through that whole process and just be with be with you without being with that content or being, you know, meaning like isn't focused on this like horrible thing you said or starts judging, you know, like that.

33:14 It's like if I'm gonna talk to somebody about the things other people are doing in my life that are like really making me mad, I want to know that that person's not gonna judge my other person, you know what I mean? Right. Um and so that's maybe one kind of challenge or offering I'll I'll offer up to everybody that that's listening is like, could you be the person that that person puts on that list?

33:37 You know, could you how what can you do to become a person that that these struggling parents know I can talk to you about what's happening, or even just simply say, everything is awful today, and you're not judging them, you're not recoiling in horror, and you're also not judging the people in their life who are really struggling and they're showing that through really bad behaviors.

34:00 Right, right. Because I think too, if you're move if if as a supporter, you're moving into judgment, that's a moment for you to come into connection with yourself and know that that is not helpful to the other person on the other end. And judgment could, I just feel like this maybe this piece is a little bit important to like notice.

34:21 Judgment could look like this agenda that you need the parent to do something different. Yeah, like whenever we're moving into this like part inside of us that's like, I have to get them to stop it.

34:32 Yeah.

34:34 And there's nothing wrong with that. Right, exactly. And also noticing that's not the time for you to then be present with the person because you're actually not.

34:43 Yeah, yeah.

34:44 Okay.

34:45 I want to summarize a little bit because I think we're I just want to make sure that for everybody listening, there's like maybe some almost like bullet points. Okay, so one way of being super supportive, and I also am paying attention to time, and we got a lot to say still. So one way to be supportive is just by, yeah, being non-judgmental, being willing to hear the hard, being willing to be okay with I can't fix this, but I'm gonna listen anyway, and not jumping in with a whole bunch of fix-its.

35:12 Um, and another way is to be really supportive and to, you know, help people feel really seen is to offer support that has nothing to do with parenting. Right. Can I do your laundry? Here, I've grilled you a huge pack of chicken that you can keep in the freezer and pull out one day. I am mowing the lawn tomorrow and I'm gonna come by with the lawn more and do yours as well.

35:36 It's fall, so it's like leave raking season here where I live, right? So, hey, I'm gonna come over, or my 16-year-old kid is gonna come over. They're gonna rake, bag up your leaves. You don't even have to like you don't even have to acknowledge that they're there. So, so practical things that have nothing to do with actual parenting.

35:57 Yes, yes, taking the load, yes, right. The what we're talking about is like decreasing the load a bit in this like acts of service. Um and then even like the maybe the third part of or second part of acts of service would be the sending a message. Yes, yes, or the yeah, the piece about like offering a feeling scene, because also too, like we don't know what's what's going on in the supporter's life and the person that is, you know, looking to say I want to extend something, but I actually only have capacity to do a bit.

36:32 And this person actually does come to my mind. So let me just take a moment to send them a message, yeah, to just tell them they've come to my mind.

36:40 Yeah, it's those moments where we like send little like memes or reels or you know, the things that we see on the internet that make me think of that person and just sending it to them. Yes, yeah, yeah.

36:53 I recently had these these moments of things have been like kind of bumpy of of of sorts lately. And I would say I would make these videos of my percolator. I got this new percolator. Yes, yes, yes. Right? And I said You sent one to me. Yes, I would show it to you. This was like my way of like actually regulating through what was hard and noticing something like sweet.

37:18 I actually got a hair clip that came in the mail, and I was like doing videos with my hair clip, but not like broadcasting them. No one would know that I do this, except the personal people in my circle. Yes, who I send it to, that there would be this, you know, they were also going through a hard time, maybe, and kind of this like chuckle back and forth about this thing that I'm just like amazed with.

37:42 Yes.

37:43 And I'm thinking about like the when you when it that's happening with you or I, then like the other person, you know, volleys something back, like, oh my gosh, that was so awesome, or oh my god, that made me laugh so hard.

37:56 And I also want to say to everybody listening, if you do take a risk and you send something to somebody, or you something that makes you think of them, or something that's silly or offers you delight and they don't respond, don't stop offering.

38:11unknown Right.

38:11 Because sometimes even taking a second to respond is too much. You know, maybe that instant something terrible happens that they have to run and tend to, or there's just the energy of hitting respond. It just might be too much. But that doesn't try not to take that as a rejection and you know, keep up with those offerings.

38:32 Yeah, I think that's so valid to highlight that piece because someone is not volleying back your supportive offering. And maybe even you, maybe you had a conversation about it, but maybe you're listening to this episode and you're just thinking, like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. Of course, it would feel hard to notice, like, oh, I didn't get anything back.

38:54 And also know that when we are in chaotic chronic protection mode parts of our life, it's very hard to offer something back.

39:04 Yeah. Yeah. Very, very hard. Okay. There's, I think, three things, three practical things I still want to talk about. One is like ways we could support people, um, actually maybe physically show up and be with folks, be willing to like kind of enter into somebody's chaotic family, and not necessarily do anything that would be supportive of parenting specifically, but we're just there and we're um, you know, present and and maybe even just another grown-up in the area.

39:39 But the second thought I'm having is, you know, be can we be somebody who actually steps in and does offer real, like on the ground with the child support, doing things, taking them places, things like that. And then the third one I do want to make sure we talk about is like, well, what do we do when we are, you know, with this family that we're offering support to and there is a crisis, something happens with that kiddo, and there is an enormous, like huge back off or attack watchdog moment, right?

40:11 How are we supportive in those moments? Because I know almost zero parents who would say, please step in and try to get my kid to calm down. Almost no parent do I know that would that they would say that would be helpful. But I do think there are things that could be helpful, like leaving the room or starting uh some hot water so that when the whole thing is over, we can have some tea together or things like that.

40:38 So I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I did want to like kind of just share my structure with you and with people. So you told me the story about how your husband would sometimes just go to people's houses and have dinner with them. Yeah.

40:50 That it makes me think about how so my husband's a teacher for like 30 years, and I'd probably say, like, early on in his career, maybe the first 15 or so, that was probably maybe 10 to 12 years. That was an occurrence, probably like weekly that he had shared. I didn't know him when this was happening in his life, where he would be invited over.

41:14 And in like kind of inherent in that relational build that he had with these families, he was able to offer support to the families um beyond kind of like the classroom, right? This like male who um he does still tend to get maybe the we would say the more challenging kinds of kids because he's very relational.

41:39 Yeah.

41:40 And although he um has not, as of many years, been invited to people's houses for dinner, he's still extremely relational with people. But when I hear him talk about those moments where he was in people's houses and how he was able to develop relationships with the parents, it really was so moving. And I thought, like, gosh, that is something that's like missing in our culture.

42:03 Um, and also I'm a mom who has raised kids and I have never invited a teacher over to my house for dinner. It feels like something that's like, oh, we don't do that.

42:15 Right.

42:15unknown Yeah.

42:17 And there may be people listening that that's something you do do. I just think that that there's something really powerful about having these extended people who we don't even think about teachers, childcare, babysitter, who maybe just like, you know, before they leave, hey, do you want to have dinner with us?

42:34 It creates this um relationship with each other where we get to just be kind of humans together. And dinner could be really hard. So dinner's not the only thing, but he would actually stop by people's houses sometimes, not because something was wrong, but just because it was this invitation to like see him in a different way.

42:53 Or like, you know, for kids who maybe were struggling to see that him and the parent were on the same page and have this, you know, relational how can I support you kind of conversation. Um, which I just found so beautiful, really.

43:08 Yeah. I'm remembering a conversation that happened in the club pretty recently, um, with a parent talking about how they really like having people over for dinner. And it's gotten hard because of what's happening with their kids, and was looking for ways to start kind of scaffolding that back and really was thinking about how do I scaffold my kid being able to tolerate having people over for dinner?

43:36 But I think a really like overlooked part of that question is how do I let that person know that dinner in my house is chaotic? And oftentimes my kid has behaviors that other people would call quote unquote bad. And I also really love having other grown-ups over for dinner. Would you be willing to come over, even though my kid is probably gonna act, quote unquote, bad?

44:01 You know, like could you tolerate that? Could you be with that? Can you navigate those complex experiences? And I think just like straight up literally asking.

44:13 Yeah. Well, I think both ways. Yeah. If you are a person who's in someone's life who sees that there's chaos, yeah, being able to say, Hey, I am still willing to come over. Like I am not, I don't have judgment about this. Or you know, it is kind of hard to see. I think what's true, like even in my own experience, when you have people coming over, they also feel like they want to do something to help you.

44:35 And I think that their help or their perception of help is not the same, right? We're not always on the same page. Part of that is because we haven't had conversation. Sometimes we have, and it's just like generationally, they are just not gonna get it. It doesn't matter how much explaining I do. Yeah, like just not happening.

44:52 So this is like conversations I'll often facilitate in here when there's moments of like bringing people in, really just being truthful about this is what's true in our family, and this is what would be helpful. Yes. You just being like warm and kind of, you know, offering, um, being able to just like maybe sometimes shift the attention, like even saying, like, oh, you know, why don't we go outside for a few minutes?

45:20 Or I'm gonna go outside. Who wants to come with me? Just some kind of novel offering sometimes in the midst of something that could be hard. Again, some of our kids, the hard is so like really dangerous that that wouldn't be the right time. But there's moments that we could see something escalating and thinking, like, you know, maybe we need to step out of here for a minute.

45:42 And what I can offer is the parent some space so that they can regroup and move along with what they're doing. Um, and I can possibly push the kiddo on the swing, or I can get the drink or the snack, or I can say, like, oh my gosh, I saw a cardinal outside. Can you help me go find it? Yeah. Something that would be a surprise or something that would be novel to help shift the attention.

46:04 And then not actually have any conversation about the behavior. Right. Like then just go find the cardinal or go do the thing, because that's gonna help them be in relationship with someone, come back to barring your nervous system, um, maybe have some movement and possibly invite their owl brain back so that they can transition.

46:25 Yeah. And help this parent feel less lonely because even though their kids out of control, somebody's still willing to come over and have dinner with them or coffee or just chit-chat, you know, in the afternoon. Imagine when that was such a normal part of life, and it's not such a normal part of life anymore.

46:44 Um, but I also know that when you live in a home with a lot of chaos, you s you stop inviting people over. Right. And if somebody could be brave enough to say, like, hey, I I see your chaos, I'm unwilling to come anyway. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. What about actually like doing things with the kid that's struggling?

47:07 Yeah. I think the relational piece that can happen is that some of the families come in and they actually have strong supports in the sense that like these people already have a strong relationship. And how when I'm curious about like, how did that That happen, oftentimes it's just because they've spent time with them playing a game, not actually requiring like any kind of demands necessarily from them to do anything, but just getting to know them and kind of being in their world, showing up at an event, supporting them in some way of just like stopping over and maybe bringing over their favorite snack, talking with them for a few minutes, and then leaving.

47:51 These, like there's there's like those drop-in moments versus this is the person who I sleep over their house and we have like so much fun. And that's great too. Like those are relational ways with that we build, but they can be like really small moments where we're texting, right? Like it maybe this is like an aunt to their, you know, niece or nephew or something.

48:13 Um I'm thinking of you. I know you started school, and right, we could do droplets of just having kids feel seen and building a relational support outside of the parent that isn't about their behavior being good or bad, right? Or whatever that is. It's just you're human and I love you because you exist.

48:37 Yes. And I think that then can possibly at some point turn into like, wow, today was really hard. And I'm here if you want to talk about it. I get it. You were so mad. Because wouldn't it be so great if our kids have more people that they can lean into and vent to that offer this is the part that's really hard.

49:01 It's like we say to kids once, like, oh, let me know if you need anything, or I'm here for you if you need to talk. But kids aren't going to reach out to adults usually. Yeah. The adults actually have to be the ones to say, I'm thinking about you. Yeah. How was your day? Yeah. Or tell me something good and something hard that happened.

49:18 This is what happened to me. Like, oh my gosh, can you believe it? This like shared experience.

49:25 We have a teen in our life, um, who's a young adult now, in a way at college. And as you're talking about, I'm like, oh my gosh, she is describing the relationship we have with this teen. That my husband and I adore this person anyway. So it's been easy to build a relationship. But um, you know, we it is also something they they live far away, so it's required some, you know, conscious thought and something we have truly done really intentional because there's some hard things happening in this person's life.

49:55 And we want to make sure that we're, you know, constantly kind of one checking in on them, being kind of a safe person for that person in that moment, but also in the future. Um, and but it's very low um stakes, right? It's just like, hey, how are you? Or, you know, like just silly little, like teeny tiny little moments of connection that's giving this person a felt sense of, you know, there are adults who are there for me that aren't just my parents.

50:29 And kid, I kids really need that. We can absolutely do that without interrupting like a kid's relationship or attachment to their parent.

50:38 Yeah, I think we're giving them another relational experience of, you know, this this I can have closeness with other kinds of people. And this can also look different and feel different, and I can feel, you know, connected. There's there were many moments over the course of raising one of my kiddos who um I really leaned heavily into um telling things certain, usually my family, there were certain family members that were very easy supports for me that we had an understanding and conversation over the years around what I needed that I would just say, and even now I will do that sometimes when things are hard.

51:18 Like, hey, can you just check in on them? Because something's going on, and I just need them to know that they're loved by a lot of people. Yeah. Like, and I don't even necessarily need to say what's happening, and they're not like seeking the other person to ask them. But also sometimes, like our supporters kind of need reminders of like and it doesn't mean that they don't care or they're not thinking of, but also they have you know things that they are doing too.

51:47 So that mutual part of can a supporter see what's happening and step in in a way that's um not uh, you know, like towards it towards the parent in a way that's supportive and helpful. And then can the parents also look at what do I need and can I ask for that? Is this like a safe enough relationship that I feel like I can say what I need?

52:11 Or I don't even know what I need, but something hard is happening. Absolutely. And it could just be the touch point.

52:18 And I also think being that clear with people, like if you're gonna invite somebody into your family to come over or to be with your kid or be with you or your kid, you know, to also be super clear with them, like when things go sideways and my kid starts to have their watchdog possum behaviors. Here's what would be helpful if you would do.

52:43 And just like give them a bullet point because people don't know what to do and they get like nervous and scared, and they're like, ah, what would be helpful? I don't know, this is awkward. And so just tell them, tell them what to do. Please step out of the room, please, you know, do X, Y, Z and just be super duper clear.

53:01 And if a person can say, Yes, thank you for this information, that's what I will do. Right. Then that's a person that is, you know, really safe to have over in your family. And if it's a person who's like, I can't do these things, or you've known and historically that they can't do these things, then you can just make other choices about who is that involved or present in your family's life.

53:25 Right. Right. Right.

53:29 Yeah. There is um my hope is that it helped this conversation helps people to get thinking about one like themselves as like a supporter. How can I offer the possibility? And also for parents to think about are there people that I can think about that would actually fit this and then maybe need a little bit more direction and I can send them this podcast so that maybe the conversation can be a little easier between us because this is a bridge of that conversation and helping both people have like parent and supporter to be able to just have some like, hey, just tell me what to do.

54:15 And if you don't know, then maybe what I'll do is like probably the best thing then is for me to step away, yeah, or just go get a drink and a snack, or just maybe finish whatever task you're in the middle of. Um or just go and I'm not just immediately leave. I'm not mad that you'll drive away. Yes. And I'll, you know, I'll come back another day.

54:39 Also, that that's okay too. I think just being able to name all those pieces that actually might happen to take away the shame about it, because it really is so hard. It feels so hard when um things are hard in our house and people are there as like a witness to it.

54:56unknown Yeah.

54:56 Um, as always, this has been a perfectly lovely way to start a Friday morning, but also so important. So important. Like I know that this episode will be something that parents will really take something away from with regards to how they might be asking for help or support, but also I love that we've created something that somebody could say, could you please listen to this podcast?

55:25 Because they just don't even have the energy to ask or support, you know, ask people to do anything more than just, hey, listen to this podcast. So if you are listening, because somebody asked you to listen to it, thank you. Yes, thank you.

55:40unknown Yeah.

55:41 Yeah. So much gratitude for just um being able to be curious about what this would actually mean. Yeah. Um, even for our therapists and coaches, people, other types of roles, OTs or speech therapists, that this can also be a way that you like think about how a family might need a little bit of something more that's a little bit more community-based.

56:05 Yeah. Um, you know, kind of getting everybody curious about this part of their life.

56:13 Yes. Thank you.

56:15 Thank you for being such a dear, dear friend. I told, you know, we've had a lot of opportunities lately to express our gratitude for each other. Yeah. And just our presence in each other's lives where we're so lucky we found each other. Yes.

56:29 Thank you. Thanks, Rose. All right. All right, everybody. It's just Robin again. Rose had a hard stop time. So we had to wrap up our conversation. But I found myself wishing we had very specifically addressed one more thing. This is something I hear from families so often in the club, which is um the places that they go, like, for example, church or a community that they have in their lives that's very important to them, that they want their child to also be a part of.

57:09 And this often comes up when thinking about church or other like faith homes or religious homes, and feeling as though it their child and their child's behaviors aren't welcome or aren't permitted in that place. And I work with families who have so much grief and loss over this. They've lost so much over their um family's journey and have had to uh change so many things that they never intended or expected, and to lose such an important community, particularly like a religious community, though, of course, families get have you know communities in in many kinds of ways.

58:01 And so this is just my offering. If if somebody has given you this episode and you are their minister or their pastor or their rabbi, or you are in charge of and like hold a leadership role in a community that these parents are a part of, I want to just really invite you to consider ways that the community could adapt for this family instead of ways that the family needs to adapt to the community.

58:36 These are parents that have lost so much and they want so badly to maintain this part of their life that has always offered them such a space of safety and goodness and connection to themselves. And um, again, I hear this so often um with families talking about their faith home or their spiritual home.

59:00 The the idea of losing connection to that home is just adding a whole nother layer of loss and devastation to their parenting journey. And I just want to give like a very specific invitation to leaders in those types of spaces and communities. Are there ways that your community can make adjustments, shift, change that could be expectations, that could be tolerance of a child behaving in a way that you typically wouldn't permit?

59:42 It could be other ways that you adapt or shift or change to really bring in this family, to wrap this family and their very struggling child up in community, in love, in welcomeness, to really be able to be a space that this family can feel like, you know, I can bring all of my messiness, including my child and their behaviors, and we will still be loved and welcomed.

1:00:15 And people that have more capacity to make change, folks with less vulnerability, folks with more support and more power, right? Like if you're listening to this because you're a leader in a community, you're you have more capacity to change, you have more power. And for then you to be the one who says, you know what, we can make the changes so that this family who has already lost so much and has so much vulnerability and really can't change, that they can just come as themselves, as their whole complete messy selves.

1:00:55 I can't imagine a bigger or better offering for that family. I can't imagine a more kind of filled with love invitation for this family. And even if the family decides, like we still just can't do it. Like, for example, church, it's still just too much of a lift for us and for our child. The fact that there was an offering is so extremely meaningful, and then that might give this family uh bravery to try again in the future.

1:01:34 I know so many families who are afraid, afraid to come to church, afraid to come to this community that is built around being together and built around love and connection. And I know so many families who are afraid to go. And so if you're listening, and again, you hold a leadership role in that kind of a community, I would just really invite you to reach out to this family and say, you know what?

1:02:01 We'll be the ones who make changes. We'll be the ones who use the power that we have to shift and change so that you and your family will feel welcome here in all of your eunus, in all of your messiness. Please come. And I know that Rose would agree. And I wrote, no, Rose would say yes. And I know that she would also have more brilliance to offer than I have just suggested.

1:02:32 Um and I also know that Rose had a hard stop and she had to go. And so I just wanted to end the episode in this way. Thank you. If you listened to this because somebody asked you to thank you, just that is enough. Like maybe you're walking away from this episode and thinking, you know, I really can't do those things.

1:02:54 Well, I think acknowledgement of that limitation is so brave and so real. And to follow back up with the family that, you know, brought you this episode and say, I listened to the whole thing and I hear how badly you need support. And unfortunately, I don't know that I'm able to do that. That's just brave and gutsy and so real.

1:03:19 And this family will appreciate that. And maybe you're also ending the episode and you're feeling like I can do these things. And here's what I can do. And I'm going to go back to this family and say, here's what I can do. Thank you for giving me a way to help you. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:03:38 All right, y'all. As always, we'll be back again together here on the Baffling Behavior Show podcast next week.