EP 290: The Treatment Planning Conversation Every Practitioner Should Have with Parents

2:15 So when your kids' behavior is baffling and yours is too, sometimes, yeah. I know. Let's take a break from all the bathboozle here on the baffling behavior. Well, hey, hey, everybody. Welcome or welcome back to another episode of The Baffling Behavior Show, the podcast formally known as Parenting After Trauma.

2:43 It's me, your host, Robin Gobel, and today we're gonna have an episode that goes a slightly different direction. I recorded this episode especially for all of our practitioners and professionals who listen to the Baffling Behavior Show. I know there are so many of you who tune in and are getting some support and how you are working with kids and families.

3:06 And I wanted to do an episode about some treatment planning conversations that I think is so important that practitioners, whether we're therapists or parent coaches or we're working with a family in another capacity. I think these conversations are so, so, so important to be having with families. I just got back from uh teaching a two-day training in or outside Calgary, Alberta.

3:35 And this topic was brought up a few times. Um, ways that we can support our work with kids and families from the very beginning as we're doing treatment planning and case conceptualization. Now, if you are listening as a parent, definitely just keep listening. I think that this conversation can be really helpful for you as well when you are meeting a new practitioner or you're bringing a new professional into your family's life.

4:07 It might give you some support around what questions could be helpful to ask or to explore with a new practitioner. So definitely if you're a parent or a caregiver, keep listening. I remember when I was a young new therapist working with kids and parents, and even all the way back to like uh being in like my graduate school internships or practicums, you know, and I was like the ripe age of what, y'all, 21 or two, and having conversations with parents and caregivers that needed to include the truth that parents and caregivers of kids who are really struggling deserve support and they often need some of their own support as well, because nobody is prepared to parent a kid with, you know, special

5:10 behavior needs or with mental health challenges or a really vulnerable nervous system. Or, you know, again, back in, you know, what was it, 2000 and like one? This isn't exactly how we were talking about things. But without question, you know, parents and caregivers really deserve support. And it was really hard as a brand new practitioner to address that.

5:37 Certainly was really hard to maybe recommend some um interventions or resources of supports that were specifically for parenting. It felt really hard to include like parent coaching or parent support in a treatment plan. I was just so, so, so concerned that I would really hurt the parents' feelings or like they'd feel like I was blaming them or insinuating that this was their fault.

6:03 And because that felt so hard for me to tolerate, it's something I would just really kind of just hedge around and sometimes, you know, talk about it in all these like sideways ways, or sometimes I would just not even talk about it. And obviously, when you look at the work that I do now in the world, that I've made, you know, a lot of shift in progress around this.

6:26 And my thoughts around parents and caregivers and how they're connected to their kids and the struggles that their kids are having are just so widely different than they were, you know, 25 years ago. And that helps make these conversations a lot easier. But the parents that I'm connected to in the club or parents that I'm meeting when I'm traveling and speaking are often telling me some version of the same thing is happening to them.

6:55 That in some ways it can look like, you know, they're professionals or practitioners who they're they're hiring or bringing into their family. They might recommend parent coaching or suggest that the parent invest in their own therapy, but they're also not really being clear with parents, like why or what is um, you know, prompting this recommendation.

7:19 Parents are feeling like it's being sort of suggested, but not really followed up with. And it's leaving parents feeling really confused and then not really sure what they should be looking for when trying to find somebody to support their family in this way. And here's the thing, y'all. The reality is that for kids, parents and caregivers are always part of the treatment plan, whether they're, you know, actively involved or they're in every session or whether you're making it clear to them or not.

7:47 It's just not possible to work with kids and not have a parent or a caregiver, you know, involved in and a part of the case conceptualization and the treatment planning. And additionally, there's just really great solid research that supports the truth that kids make more progress in services, whatever progress means, right?

8:11 I could put progress in air quotes, but whatever progress means, whatever we're sort of tracking as we are assessing, you know, treatment, kids do better when their parents and caregivers are involved and included. And so I think this is absolutely something we all really want to grow our confidence around.

8:31 So again, if you're listening as a parent, I'd love for you to stick around and hang out here in this conversation. Um, I think you'll gain some questions you might be able to ask the people that you're working with. And really, hopefully you'll end this episode feeling as though someone who's recommending parenting work or parent coaching or involving you in treatment isn't coming from a place of criticism.

8:57 It's really about like recognizing and validating how important parents and caregivers are in their child's life and just kind of being with the reality that we are all existing inside some sort of system. I mean, I think this probably goes back to my training as a social worker and the fact that my experience with mental health has been through the social worker lens, where we're always thinking about the person inside their environment.

9:27 That's a really core social work value. And it's not because we're looking for blame, we are just looking at how humans work. And then this, of course, has been exceptionally validated by the field of interpersonal neurobiology, that we all are interpersonally related and connected. And the more folks we can have involved in treatment and support for somebody who's really struggling, I mean, that's just always good.

9:56 Also, it is true that most of us in the mental health field or who have been in a mental health adjacent field, most of us have been trained in what we'd consider a medical model or like a deficits model, right? Like we are looking at symptoms through the lens of that is something that is wrong with somebody, and we are looking for a way to fix it or change it.

10:21 Now, I'm not saying that's how I approach this work because I don't, but most of us were trained in that way. And so it makes a lot of sense as we're entering into the field, and especially if we're newer in the field, that it's hard to kind of disconnect ourselves from that more deficits model. And therefore, of course, it makes a lot of sense that we it makes a lot of sense that it can feel like making recommendations to parents or caregivers that that we could worry that those recommendations are gonna come across as criticism.

11:00 I remember I used to feel this way a lot about talking with parents about attachment and attachment theory and looking at secure attachment versus insecure attachment and how that would come into treatment planning, a case conceptualization for me. Um, there's a lot of complexities why it can feel as though talking about um attachment through the lens of like insecure streams of attachment, there's a lot of reasons why that can feel as though we're talking about something bad or a deficit or a problem, or like blaming a parent for something.

11:36 And without question, as I did more and more of my own, well, like personal work, but also more and more of my understanding about what attachment and what attachment adaptations really are, it became easier and easier and easier for me to sit with the truth that even if we are looking at some behaviors through the lens of insecure attachment, that's not criticism.

12:00 That's not somebody having done anything wrong. In fact, attachment and the way that our attachment patterns show up are just absolutely brilliant adaptations. And that's a whole nother conversation. I mean, you could go way back to the beginning of the podcast and find um a six-part series I have about attachment.

12:21 And then I have an ebook all about the brilliance of attachment. Um, but we're not gonna talk any more specifically about attachment in this moment. It's I just remember that, especially if I wanted to start talking about attachment with a family, I could get this sense of like shame or almost like, oh no, I'm gonna suggest to these people that they're doing something wrong.

13:54 And that felt so, so, so hard to tolerate, right? And then I would not address it. Or I'd kind of like tiptoe around it, which just doesn't make a lot of um uh what's the right word? It doesn't create a lot of uh well, just confidence, you know, in your practitioners hedging and hemming and hawing. It can feel hard to feel a lot of confidence in their thoughts or in their recommendations.

14:27 And of course, of course, of course, I didn't want to blame or criticize parents. And it felt really hard to find a way to talk about things honestly without it coming off as blame or criticism. Then that kind of avoidance, right? The vagueness and dancing around. Well, that is, of course, protection mode energy.

14:53 And then, of course, our clients are feeling that. Even if we're not naming it, they're feeling it. And that is going to impact our work with a family in some way, shape, or form. Now, we have a lot of cultural beliefs that lead us to believe that quote unquote good parents have quote unquote good kids, and that bad parents have bad kids, or bad bad, bad parents have kids with behavior problems, right?

15:22 Or the, or at the very least, the opposite, right? That kids with behavior problems must have bad parents. So, of course, it makes so much sense that a parent could feel really vulnerable to our um offerings of some support around parenting. Also, y'all, don't forget, it is so vulnerable to be a parent who brings their child to a professional for help.

15:49 So, so, so vulnerable. So vulnerable to be a parent and reach out and say, I need help with parenting. And so vulnerable to then trust a stranger to help, right? And so I think when we are entering into such vulnerable experiences with people we don't have a lot of felt safety with yet, right? Like when somebody meets us for the first time, their job is to come in with some, let me just say skepticism.

16:22 Like it's our job to offer safety, right? And so when you come into an experience with lots of vulnerability and without a lot of safety, then yeah, protection mode energy is gonna be very, very nearby. And I think makes it just so much easier that we would tip into protection mode or tip into, you know, a parent feeling defensive or criticized.

16:49 Right. And so then, of course, we want to like really, really, really avoid that. Something that I've noticed that happens, let's just say commonly in um, you know, professional and then client relationship, like the relationship between a practitioner and the client, the parent that's coming in for help.

17:12 Um, something that I hear about with some regularity is that a practitioner has kind of skipped over talking about the importance of parents and our work with their family when they first got connected with that family, right? So a family has reached out, they are seeking some help and support. And there is a very important opportunity there for us as practitioners to really help parents and caregivers understand the way we work with them, the way we work with kids, and the value and importance that we place on parents.

17:51 If we skip over that, then if we, you know, a couple weeks in or a couple months in, start to make some recommendations for parents and some work that we are recommending that they do, it absolutely can feel like, oh my gosh, now that this person has gotten to know us better, they think this is all my fault and I need to go get help and get fixed.

18:14 And I think one way that we can avoid that coming up, or at least avoid it coming up so intensely, is to be really clear with folks from the very beginning about how we approach treatment planning and how we approach case conceptualization. This also happens to be kind of uh, well, I was gonna say one of my favorite things, but that's not true.

18:38 All of these are my favorite things. I think that's such a value in approaching my work with kids through this lens just in general, right? Like really thinking about through the lens of all behavior makes sense and no behavior is maladaptive, and looking at behavior through the lens of the stress response system.

18:58 When I've spent a lot of time with parents helping them understand these pieces about their kids' behavior, it's so much easier for them to eventually see their own behavior through this lens, of course. And then that's another way that we can really help them be curious about themselves without feeling criticized, because we've already been so explicit, right?

19:21 That we don't see behavior that way. Right? We've always we've already been so clear about that and how we're making sense of their kids' behaviors that it gets a little bit easier for parents to really trust that we believe that about their behaviors as well. So, y'all, that's one of the biggest things that I see that gets overlooked or just not tended to with the um care that it really deserves in treatment planning and in case conceptualization, which is how we see parents, well, how we see their role in treatment planning.

20:01 So that's that's one of the big ones. I also think something to think about as we're, you know, case conceptualizing, developing a treatment plan, is remembering that most treatment plans are written through the lens of behaviors, right? There's a desire to reduce a bad behavior and increase a good behavior.

20:24 So treatment plans can often be written like, you know, reduce aggression, increase compliance. And that's how most of us are trained. And that's actually how a lot of folks have to continue to write treatment plans, even if they look at treatment through a different lens, we are still needing to write treatment plans with that kind of language, because that's how insurance companies or payers are wanting us to write treatment plans.

20:54 And so to help make care accessible by, you know, taking insurance, we have to, you know, provide the insurance what they're looking for, which is treatment planning that's written in this language. And so we kind of have to manage that. But also when working with kids with really vulnerable nervous systems, sensitized trust response systems, really looking at the behavior through the lens that we talk about here on this podcast, the the behavior is actually the last part of the, you know, kind of equation that unfolds.

21:27 I mean, we start with like the stimulus, right? Like what is happening for that child, what they're experiencing in their inner and outer world. And then that's, you know, comes into play with neurosception, which of course gets impacted by all of their previous experiences and memory, as as well as like the sensitization of their stress response system and kind of their base level arousal level.

21:52 Like all of that plays into neuroception. And then that contributes to physiological state, right? And then from there, we will see a behavior. So the behavior is like the last thing, but it tends to be the first thing that we're focused on. So in treatment planning through this lens, when working with families through this paradigm, the first question isn't about behavior, right?

22:20 Our first question is about capacity and state. Is this owl, watchdog, or possum behavior? And I would call those different states, right? How much stress can this particular nervous system navigate before flipping into protection mode? How much stress can this stress response system be with before flipping into protection mode?

22:43 And then how quickly do they shift and how far down the pathway do they go? Or for kids with very sensitized stress response systems, they can shift really quickly and really intensely. Treatment planning can't be about the behavior and it can't be about making a different choice because that's not what that child has access to in those moments.

23:06 And the time frame for choice in such a dysregulated nervous system is just way too condensed. It's too short. So treatment planning really needs to be focused on strengthening capacity and essentially like growing a child's owl brain. Also, from a treatment planning perspective, there are different stages in treatment planning.

23:29 When I was working directly with kids, I'd do this really thorough assessment at the beginning of treatment. And then, of course, assessment is continuously being done like throughout treatment. Um, and then now when I teach, co-teach therapy with kids with big baffling behaviors with Rose LaPierre, you know, y'all know Rose is actually just a guest on the podcast a couple weeks ago.

23:51 Rose um is one of the co-leaders in the immersion program. She teaches the evening, what we consider the evening cohort of the immersion program. And I co-teach with Rose this therapy with kids with big baffling behaviors training for folks who are working directly with kids. And in that training, we talk a lot about case conceptualization treatment planning, and that for kids who come in and what I would maybe call like stage one, not every kid comes in in stage one, but you know, these really, really dysregulation dysregulated kids where we are working on regulating the body.

24:31 And we're really thinking about the work as being about like co-regulation and we're doing a lot of experiential work, right? We're not doing a lot of processing or developing coping skills or even doing a lot of like projective metaphor-based play. We're really working in what I would call the here and now in this very experiential place where we're really thinking about co-regulation, activation and arousals, shifting in and out of connection and protection mode.

25:00 And we're thinking a lot about rhythmic, repetitive, relational, somatosensory strategies. So that's like a stage of treatment that we might need to spend time in when a family comes into treatment. Or, you know, we might have an experience where a kid comes in and it seems like we might start at a different stage, but then we realize as treatment unfolds like, ooh, actually, we need, we need.

25:24 To back up. And treatment plans can really go sideways when we kind of skip over those stages and move right to like insight work or, you know, cognitive work or coping skills kind of work, right? We need to help kids develop more kind of owl brain, owl brain strength. We need to help kids develop more capacity to stay connected to their owl brain, even when things are stressful, before we can start to progress to different stages of treatment.

25:59 So that's another important thing to think about with treatment planning. And then I think the last thing I'll talk about with regards to treatment planning, I mean, there's a lot of things we could talk about. I'm just gonna highlight these, what I think this has been four things. The other thing to think about is um whose nervous system, whose stress response system, whose brain and body, whose self has room in the treatment planning.

26:30 Right. So I'm thinking about who does this child have access to for safety and co-regulation when they aren't in my office? And how do I support that parent in increasing their capacity? Because their stress response system is almost certainly sensitized as well, right? Like if you've parented a kid with the intensity that would lead somebody to tune into this podcast, that person also has a very sensitized stress response system.

27:04 And this is actually one of the reasons. There was a lot of reasons, but this is one of maybe like the primary reasons I've shifted to working with parents and caregivers and not so much with kids directly any longer. And again, that's not because it's parents' fault, but it's because they have more ability theoretically to create some change in their own capacity.

27:29 And when we can support the a shift in capacity for parents and their stress response system, we are directly impacting the capacity in our in the children's stress response system. And again, that's not because it's parents' faults, but it's because parents and caregivers have way more connection to kids than we do, right?

27:55 If we're working with a typical like one hour a week model of treatment, parents have way more time with their kids. And if parents are running on absolute empty, they're totally burned out, they're chronically in protection mode, right? That's a parent who needs our support first when possible. I get that it's not always possible, y'all.

28:23 But if it's possible, the best way I can impact a child is by really impacting and supporting their parent, really supporting the growth of capacity and their nervous system. And that is really tricky to do if the biggest reason a parent is, you know, so burned out is because of their kids' behavior, right?

28:46 We get a little bit caught almost in this paradox, right? That's like kids, you know, need to rely on their parents for co-regulation, which is directly related to how much capacity their parents have for stress. But parents are struggling so much to have capacity and to offer co-regulation because of the intensity and the stress that's happening inside their families.

29:10 And I think if we're not careful, that can leave us feeling like we're in this impossible place. How do I help parents? If you know what they really need help with is their kids' behavior is getting better, and I can help kids' behaviors get better if I don't help parents, right? We can get really kind of stuck and actually what I would call kind of like a reenactment of um that stuck place of the stress response system.

29:38 And y'all, of course, you're listening to this podcast, so you know that it is very, very, very possible. It's very, very, very hard. And it is very, very unfair. But it is actually possible for a parent or a caregiver's nervous system to experience some ease, to experience an increase in capacity, to experience spending more time in connection mode, even before a child's behavior changes.

30:05 And thank goodness that's possible, or we really would be quite stuck. So there's actually a lot of hope in this truth. And I think that when practitioners, therapists, folks who work with kids and families in whatever capacity really understand what I would call this nested approach, that we are using our capacity and our stress response system, our window of tolerance to support parents and creating change and the parents' window of tolerance and stress response system, increasing compare capacity for parents, right?

30:51 So that then they have more capacity for their kids. And then their kids can increase, you know, some space in their own window of tolerance, right? And their capacity. So there's this like nested experience of practitioners holding parents, parents holding kids. Then of course, somebody has to hold the practitioners.

31:12 We'll come back to that, right? But there's this like nested approach. And when practitioners kind of understand this nested approach of how change happens, and when they clearly understand the neuroscience behavior, right, and how behavior changes, then I think practitioners have so much capacity to be able to offer this information through a very compassionate, non-shaming way of being with parents and caregivers.

31:44 And then that parent caregiver gets to decide, they get to have the capacity to consent to whether or not this is the approach that they're looking for, whether or not this is the treatment that they are looking for for their kids and for their families. And y'all, parents can't consent to something that they don't understand.

32:08 And there's no reason for parents to understand this model before they connect with us. That's our opportunity. I think that's such an amazing opportunity we get to have to really help parents understand how we are conceptualizing their kids and their kids' behaviors and their role in their child's treatment.

32:34 Because then they get to, well, again, one number one, they get to consent to that. But then they get to really see, like, oh, this isn't about blame or shame at all. This is about humans reacting to life in a very human way and then needing support. Okay, there's actually one more thing I want to touch on before we wrap this episode up today.

32:57 I just think this really needs to be included in a conversation about case conceptualization. Um, but as practitioners, y'all, we need to uh offer ourselves the same care and compassion that we're offering to the people that we're working with. Right? Our own stress response system, our own what I would call like implicit awakenings deserve to be noticed, tended to, tended to, and really may be relevant in case conceptualization and treatment planning.

33:35 So you may have read the chapter that I wrote um in Anna Gomez's handbook on um treating children with complex trauma and dissociation. So she edited this enormous handbook. It's like a thousand pages. And I contributed the chapter on interpersonal neurobiology and how interpersonal neurobiology you offers case conceptualization and then a treatment plan for kids who have histories of complex trauma and dissociation.

34:12 And in the in that chapter, I talked a lot about how I pay so much attention to my own experience when I am working with kids. And I'm especially paying attention to if I'm noticing anything unusual about my experience. Like, for example, if I notice being with a kid that I'm having a very hard time liking, because generally speaking, I adore kids.

34:39 And I even adore kids who are highly dysregulated. I mean, that's how I can do this work, right? And so, if, for example, I'm noticing an experience with a kid where I'm like, oh, I'm having a hard time even liking this kid, that's information to me. That's unusual. It's different. It suggests to me that something's getting touched inside of me.

35:03 Something, I'm having some what I would call like an implicit awakening. And in those moments, it's really important that I not shame myself for not liking a kid, but that instead I get super curious about what is awakening in me. Number one, I need to pay attention to that so that I can show up in connection mode with this kiddo, because they really deserve that.

35:26 But also sometimes there's information there that is relevant to making sense of this client, making sense of what they're bringing into the room, and then how that contributes again to our conceptualization and clinical reasoning and treatment planning. One of the core learnings I always go back to from Bonnie Badnock, who's been my primary like clinical mentor, is that um she she says in order for us to have the capacity to be with highly dysregulated folks, that we need to number one, heal what we can, number two, in ourselves.

36:12 Like heal what we can in ourselves. Number two, become aware of what's being touched in ourselves, what's being awakened, you know, be be to increase our capacity to notice those things. And then number three, release the idea that we could ever be a quote unquote perfect container. But if we are going to use our own experiences as part of case conceptualization and treatment planning, it's really important to be in regular ongoing professional consultation, to have somebody who is with us in reflective consultation or reflective supervision.

36:53 It would be easy to rely on our own experiences as fact, as opposed to just places to hold some curiosity. And so we need support in that. We need support in staying in that very curious stance, especially when we're triggered by clients or again, noticing these awakenings. Now, y'all, if this anything about this episode felt um overwhelming to you, I want to be really clear with you that this kind of clinical reasoning is absolutely learnable.

37:25 I mean, what I have found to be true is that we all need a map. We need solid grounding in our theory. And for me, that's more than just my clinical theory. It's like the theory of human development. For me, that's interpersonal neurobiology and relational neuroscience, but we don't all have to say, have to say have the same theory.

37:44 I am not interested in us all having the same theory. I'm just interested in us all knowing what our theory is and staying grounded in it. And that theory, and for me, this theory of human development and interpersonal neurobiology, it offers me a map that reminds me both of like where I am now with this person and then also where we are going.

38:04 And that map is crucial, especially when working with highly dysregulated folks. And then we also need tools, not a flow chart, right, for when to use a tool. But when we understand what's happening underneath a client's dysregulation, we can get better at selecting a tool that might be supportive in that moment.

38:27 Okay, so we need a map, we need tools, and then we need a place to bring our own dysregulation while we practice using this map and using these tools. And we need that ongoing, right? We need it week after week after week. And my experience has been, and my belief, is that the more dysregulated our clients are, and I've always worked with highly dysregulated clients, the more dysregulated our clients are, the more support we need.

38:54 Honestly, I've never had a time when I was practicing or seeing clients where I wasn't in ongoing, usually professional consultation, but at the very least, peer consultation. I mean, even now, even now. It's so crucial to have reflective consultation and reflective supervision. And so if you're listening as a practitioner and you're realizing that this, that's that consultation supervision isn't a part of your own toolkit, then you know, there needs there doesn't need to be any shame about that.

39:28 It's just something to hold in mind that would be really um necessary, I think, to access. And this idea of the map and the tools and a space for ourselves, those things are the the bones. That that's the structure. That's the I'm blanking on the right word, y'all. Like I am, you know, occasionally having problems with word recall as I get older.

39:59 But uh that that's like the bones of the immersion program, right? That there's a map and there's tools and there's a place to bring our dysregulation. That is exactly the format and the offerings of the immersion program. Now, if you're listening to this episode on the day it goes live, then you can actually still register for a webinar I'm teaching today.

40:24 I'm teaching it twice at 12:30 p.m. Eastern and at 8 p.m. Eastern. And we're gonna explore these ideas working with parents who are quote unquote struggling to get on board, whatever that means. Okay. And we're gonna explore this exactly the map, the tools, and where we are getting support. So if you're hearing this on the day this episode goes live, which is October 27th, you can still register.

40:51 The we're doing it twice again, 12:30 p.m., 8 p.m. Eastern. If you are hearing this episode after the day that I'm teaching the webinar live, you can go to robanggoble.com slash free webinar anyway. And we will make sure you get access to watch the webinar. Again, it's free and there's some free resources that go along with it.

41:10 So even if you're hearing this later, now I'm not promising if you hear this like a lot later, like in 2027, or if you're listening in like 2030, I don't know how long this webinar will be something I can keep on the website. But if you're listening to this sometime in the near future from October 27th, go to robangglobal.com slash free webinar and we'll make sure you get access to viewing that recording.

41:37 Okay. And if you're listening and you are thinking, like, oh, I I already know this is exactly how I want to work with families. You know, I want the map and the tools and the energetic container, then I want you to go to robingobel.com slash immersion and look at the immersion program and consider applying because we would love to have you come into the immersion program in 2027.

42:09 The more practitioners we're training, the more families who are getting the support that they need. And if you're a parent listening to this episode and you made it this far and you're hoping to work with a practitioner who is trained this way, you can go to robingobel.com slash directory to search for a practitioner who has completed the immersion program.

42:34 Okay, so let's go over that again. Robin Gobel.com slash free webinar if you wanna watch that webinar. Robin Gobel.com slash immersion to read about the immersion program. Robin Gobel.com slash apply to apply for the immersion program, Robin Gobel.com slash directory to search for a practitioner who has completed the immersion program.

42:56 Okay. I'll make sure all these links get down in the show notes. And as always, y'all, so very grateful for everything that you continue to do, whether you're a parent, a practitioner, or professional, whatever brings you to the podcast, so grateful for everything you do, for the ways that you support kids and the ways that you support their caregivers, even if that's you.

43:20 Because coming here and listening to this podcast is a way you're supporting yourself, the parent, the caregiver. All right, y'all. I will either see you on today's webinar for practitioners, or I will see you, or I will be with you again next week on another episode of The Baffling Behavior Show.