Bodies Bodies Bodies with Korama Danquah

0:01 On the Bechdel cast the questions asked if movies have women in them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the Bechdel.

0:14 Cast Caitlin yeah Jamie do you really not listen to my podcast no I.

0:22 I do, and I like it. I'm not hate-listening to it like the other people are saying.

0:27 What we do is we bring on one of our funniest friends and we have a chat. Sounds awesome. Sounds awesome. Okay, podcasters down. Podcasters down in this one. Maybe one of the first, but certainly not the last, of horror movies that are trying to get us to hate ourselves, but it won't work because here we are. Welcome to the Bechdel cast. Whether you like it or not, my name is Jamie Loftus.

0:54 My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point. So it's a lot more than just hanging out with your smartest and funniest friend. Although we do that too, such as today.

1:10 It's true. It's true. But Caitlin, what is the Bechdel test, for crying out loud?

1:16 It is a mediometric test. created by friend of the show alice and bechdel there are many different versions of it the one that we use is do two characters of a marginalized gender have names do they speak to each other and is their conversation about something other than a man and we also like it when it's narratively relevant dialogue and not just like throw away nothing dialogue it's.

1:42 True And today we are covering a movie that is one that we've been getting requests for since kind of the moment it came out. And we've shown restraint. And I'm glad we did because this movie is aging in a very interesting way, I think. Even though it's but four years old. We are covering Bodies, Bodies, Bodies 2022.

2:01 And we have, as we've been doing a lot this year, bringing back our all-time favorite guest for, is this her birthday? The fifth?

2:09 Is it the fifth?

2:10 Wow, a lot of people hit, and this is where we always promise you a jacket, and then it just never happens to come in the mail. Never materializes. Someday, you know, there will come a day. But oh my gosh, coming on for her fifth appearance. Let's get our hilarious friend that we podcast with into the mix. Our funniest and smartest friend.

2:30 Yeah, there it is.

2:32 She's a writer and actor, and you know her from our episodes on us. Get Out, Cheetah Girls, and Holes.

2:41 It's Karama Dankwa.

2:42 Hi. Welcome back.

2:43 Welcome back.

2:44 I can't believe I'm your funniest and smartest friend.

2:47 Yes.

2:48 It's true. It's true.

2:50 I love hearing guests' past appearances because it either really coheres to a theme or it's truly all over the map.

2:57 It's thrilling.

2:59 Yeah.

2:59 For your past movies, it's three horror movies, two of them directed by the same director.

3:05 Mm-hmm. And then two movies for children.

3:08 I love children's films and I love scary movies. I think being a child is scary. So, you know, it's true. It's a world that's not built for children. They are honestly one of the most marginalized groups in society right now, but people don't want to talk about that. But anyway, it's true.

3:22 Well, I was like, I guess that today is not, this isn't quite the movie to talk about it, but it is worth talking about. And especially every time we're talking about child stars, which we've been doing a lot this year, just, um, we have to protect the children.

3:36 And we also have to.

3:37 Protect the Gen Z influencers. So let's talk about that.

3:41 We must. They're very fragile. They're very breakable.

3:44 A protected class. This movie is so interesting.

3:49 Okay.

3:50 Okay.

3:50 Yes.

3:51 Karama, we're so excited to have you back to sort of unpack this one. And I guess, yeah, because it's been a little bit of time now, what is your history with Bodies, Bodies, Bodies?

4:03 So I saw Bodies, Bodies, Bodies in theaters when it came out in 2022 at AMC Burbank 16. Got lost in the parking lot afterwards. Usually when I get lost in the parking lot after a horror film, I'm scared that the killer is going to come after me. For reasons we'll get into later, wasn't scared this time. I didn't care for it. I left kind of disappointed. And that's the only time I had seen it prior to watching it again to discuss with you two. And I actually liked it a lot more this time. So I think it is fine whining for me personally. It's still not a movie that I'm like, I want to watch this once a year, but I have a lot more appreciation for it, particularly from a writing standpoint. I think

4:46 that it has a lot of load bearing dialogue, especially early on. And I think that it's well crafted. I don't know that it's my taste.

4:55 Mm hmm.

4:55 Yeah.

4:56 I hear you.

4:57 What about you two?

4:58 I also saw it in theaters, probably also at the AMC Burbank 16.

5:03 Wow.

5:04 Because that's where I see 90% of the movies I see in LA. And I had a similar initial reaction as far as I'm not sure this is for me. I thought bits of it were funny. I think that it handled tension and suspense well enough. but it got to a point for me where I was having trouble suspending my disbelief. I think as soon as the gun shows up, I'm like, I don't know about this. And I found most, if not all of the characters pretty unlikable, which I think is probably the point, but that makes it difficult for me to then enjoy the movie. So yeah, I, I didn't love it. And then upon this rewatch, um, I don't know. I think I like need the conversation we are about to have.

5:56 I feel the same way.

5:58 Yeah.

5:58 Really unpack how I feel about it now. But yeah, that's where I'm at right now.

6:04 What about you, Jamie? Well, it's, it's so important to have different experiences in the discussion because I actually saw this at city walk when it came out. Oh my gosh, Jamie. So yes.

6:16 So I thought I knew you.

6:19 At least it's the Valley. At least it's the Valley.

6:21 I am generally a Burbank 16 girly.

6:23 I've since, but I, this, I remember this movie came out during a heat wave and my friend, friend of the pod, Julia Claire was visiting and we simply needed to be in air conditioning. And so that was how I came to Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. Full disclosure as I do it, which like at this point, it's like so many people in comedy came up with Rachel Senate or Iowa debris that it like it bears saying. And that's like sort of why I'm like, we can wait a couple of years to cover this. I think that the performances in this movie are really good. I think I've sort of had like or I don't know. I want to have the conversation because I could definitely be swung.

7:03 But I was like kind of indifferent to this movie when it came out.

7:06 That was fun.

7:08 There was definitely air conditioning. I think that was my priority at the time. It's a fun summer thrillery kind of movie. I didn't really think about it very much after that. But now that we've actually covered this director's next movie, Helena Rijn, who is, I believe, Dutch. We've covered Baby Girl on the pod. A movie I like much better that I think has a lot more to say.

7:28 And yeah, I don't know. Revisiting this, I'm like, I think I like it a little less than when I first watched it. But I also.

7:38 I don't know.

7:38 This is a tricky kind of movie for me where I understand where it's coming from. I get that the whole cast is supposed to be unlikable to different degrees, but this feels like kind of, I'm trying to think of what the millennial version of this movie would be, but I do feel like every generation, there's a couple of years of comedy movies that are trying to comment on a generation and not quite getting it right. And that is like a lot of what kind of was bumping me with this movie. You know, this isn't a Gen Z chat. However, I do feel like this movie has a very low opinion of all young people and trying to make it about class at the last minute.

8:23 So that was kind of what I was struggling with was it just, it felt like this was a movie that is like written and directed by women who are elder millennials to Gen X. And it does feel a little bit wave a fist in a cloud to me in moments, but I'm willing to be swung. I like literally all of the performances. Lee Pace is a delight. 2022, it's so historically recent, but you're also like, oh yeah, Maria Bakalova totally forgot about that moment. Feminist Borat, what was happening? I know, I was like, what do I know her from? Oh, the Borat sequel?

9:05 But Borat, what's it called? Subsequent movie film?

9:08 Yes, we did nominate Feminist Borat for an Oscar, and we have to sit with that, and that was in the recent past.

9:16 Anyways, I just think this.

9:17 Movie, I don't know, it feels like a stepping stone that has led to, or maybe just Much better Gen Z comedies that are made by people who have like a little more insight into being like internet natives and stuff. It was also, the story is by the writer who wrote Cat Person.

9:37 So there's just like a lot going on here.

9:39 There's a lot going on.

9:40 Well, she wrote a whole script and I read it actually.

9:44 Stuff.

9:45 Okay, prepared. I'm so excited to talk about it.

9:48 I wanted you guys to give me an A in podcast guest.

9:52 Always.

9:53 I mean, again, you are our smartest and funniest friend.

9:57 What I found interesting, because before, i read the script i saw oh this is written by kristen rupenian who wrote cat person that's weird um i and i read that there was a killer in the original script and i was like oh i have to see this this is curious i'm i'm very interested in and how this is different. And we can talk about that a little bit later. I have a lot to say.

10:20 I'm on the edge of my, because I also read there was originally a killer. And, you know, I don't, I guess I need more information. I do.

10:29 The ending of this movie is interesting.

10:32 I remember when I first saw it, it's like, it's kind of a funny reveal. And it also kind of feels like the movie's saying, fuck you.

10:40 Yeah. I felt like I was in Europe because I was whelmed. Like, I just, you know?

10:46 Yeah, you're like, okay, it's like, I'm not, it doesn't feel bad to watch Pete Davidson, like, literally die by his own sword. But, but yeah, I don't know. I'm excited to talk about it.

10:59 I will say this is my favorite Pete Davidson horror movie. It's not the only one that exists, and it's not the only one that I've seen.

11:05 Wait, what are the others?

11:08 Oh, there's like a movie where he works in an old folks home and there's a bunch of like weird stuff happening and people are dying. It's called Home, I think. I saw it in a Scream Unseen.

11:20 Now that's Burbank 16 behavior. Oh, my God.

11:27 I never heard of this.

11:29 It wasn't. Well received by many people, including me.

11:34 He's in a movie.

11:35 He's in an upcoming movie just called Bitcoin.

11:38 Don't know if it's pro or con.

11:41 Related, he's also in a movie called Dumb Money.

11:45 Oh, yes.

11:45 And what is Bitcoin but dumb money?

11:47 Oh, is that about GameStop?

11:49 Yes, that's the game. Yeah, the GameStop.

11:51 I think that the I, Tonya guy directed that, right?

11:53 Oh, okay.

11:54 I think so. I saw that in theaters, not at the AMC Burbank 16, but rather the AMC Glendale Americana.

12:01 Wow.

12:02 So, yeah.

12:03 Did you park at the Glendale Galleria and then cross the street?

12:06 You bet your ass I did.

12:07 Frugal.

12:08 We like it. I'm not paying for parking. Everyone listening to the show is like, Shut up. But that's why we are. That's why I'm like, are there sections of Bodies, Bodies, Bodies that I'm saying come on to because I am the target of it?

12:23 Unclear.

12:24 Let's discuss.

12:25 But also, I don't know. The reveal that everyone is mean, shallow, vapid, and has no brain cells to rub together. It just, it's nihilistic in a way that I understand what they're going for, but I didn't love it.

12:42 I know because it's like, is this a takedown of young rich people? Just like wealth and the products of wealth. Is it a takedown of Gen Z? Is it a little bit of both?

12:57 I don't know.

12:57 Because I'm like, if you want to comment on class and the spoiled nature of most rich kids, fine. But it feels like they're specifically targeting Gen Z kids. in an unfair way.

13:13 Right like there are rich kids that are now rich adults who are a major part of the problem right and there's probably more to say about them than people in their house you know what I mean just like for a storm party right like institutionally but anyway.

13:29 Yeah there's stuff I felt yeah there's definitely stuff there's there towards the end it just felt like it was like really stuffing in the message in the last like 15 minutes or so In a way that I was like, I don't know if this is necessarily what I was getting from this movie up till now. I also just find the game confusing. The mechanics of bodies, bodies, bodies.

13:51 I do not understand the rules.

13:53 What is the game?

13:54 No, it's a bad game. Do you remember the made-up game from New Girl called True American?

13:59 Yes.

14:00 It's like that, where the rules make no sense.

14:03 My friends and I played that once. Wait, what is it? The thing is, you don't care about the rules after the first round because you're drunk.

14:09 So wait what what is i didn't watch i didn't watch new girl.

14:14 It's truly a nonsensical game i couldn't i don't remember really anything about it the.

14:19 Floor is lava at a certain point.

14:21 And okay yeah you.

14:22 Also have to make like a tower of beers and you have to say fdr jfk like there's very little about it that is structurally rules based.

14:32 Right. Interesting.

14:33 Okay.

14:33 Much like with bodies, bodies, bodies, where, why are they slapping each other?

14:37 So is that part of the game or is that a separate game?

14:40 And is that about class?

14:42 Cause I don't think it was like, it's just like, okay. I think I've already, I'm like, I think this is movie is like fun, but ultimately all over the place. There's also a movie that unfortunately written and directed by a man. I'm so sorry, but a movie that like, When there's a game happening like this, one of my favorite parts of the movie is learning the rules of the game. That's always one of the most fun sequences.

15:05 That's the whole Saw franchise.

15:07 Wow, Jamie loves rules. No, I love to play a game. I love to play a game. No, no, no. I'm kidding. I'm the exact same way.

15:15 I love rules.

15:16 I'm coming into my little tricycle and I'm saying, what are the rules? I want to play a game.

15:21 What are the rules billy i want to.

15:24 Oh i chopped my own head off got it got it got it because i'm poor right got it shrug i the movie i was thinking of and i'm very biased towards this movie because my friend is in it but um it's what's inside did either of you see that.

15:40 No the only one inside i know is from waitress the musical because i'm a nerd in a.

15:45 Different way and you're right to say it um It's a movie that came out a couple of years ago that has a similar setup where it's like old friends coming together in a nice house. Class is a big component. They haven't seen each other in a long time. But it becomes a body swap horror comedy. which, so it goes in a different place. I would highly recommend it. Oh, I have seen that.

16:10 Yeah, David is the lead of it.

16:12 Oh my gosh. But one of the best parts is learning how the game works because then for the rest of the movie, you as the audience always know what's going on and you're always kind of two steps ahead of of you're waiting for the characters to get to where you are and it's exciting and it's easier to be like, don't go in there. Whereas with Bodies, Bodies, Bodies, I guess I was sort of like, I guess you can go in there. I have no idea what's in there and I don't feel dread because I don't.

16:39 Know how this game works.

16:42 So I just feel like I was just like watching influencers crawl around in the dark and I was just like, why the hell not i don't know i just like i didn't feel attachment to the characters because they were intentionally unlikable but also it wasn't even like fun to watch them die because i didn't understand how the game worked and there didn't feel like an actual threat well because they stopped.

17:04 Playing the game almost immediately and then i mean i think that the basic premise of a slasher movie where a bunch of people are killed and you have to figure out who the killer is. And the twist is there is no killer is like pretty fun as just a general premise.

17:25 But I feel like.

17:26 Maybe the execution here, I don't know. I think they should have given the script to me for some notes.

17:33 I actually, I was talking to my friends about this movie last night after we went and saw the re-release of Pan's Labyrinth. And one of my friends said, likened it to the odyssey he was like oh it's the odyssey which we thought was a joke because i had just talked about how i realized that one of my favorite childhood films was an adaptation of the odyssey the pebble and the penguin nobody's ever heard of it it's a musical martin short's in it it's great it's animated if you ever want to watch it and talk about it here would love would.

18:01 Love um listeners do you want.

18:03 That please jump in if you want it say it in the comments um But I was like, oh, yeah, it's the Odyssey. And my friend was like, oh, you know, Bodies, Bodies, Bodies is kind of the Odyssey because it's like the sea people. Everybody keeps talking about the sea people. But then we are the sea people because there's no killer.

18:21 They are the killers.

18:22 Oh, right.

18:23 We thought he was joking. We're like, oh, you actually made a very salient point. You're so smart.

18:26 Oh, my gosh.

18:27 God, man, you hate to see it. You hate to see it.

18:31 You need to see a man making a good point.

18:33 It was his birthday, so we'll let him have it. Okay.

18:36 Pam's Labyrinth is such a clutch birthday outing.

18:40 Right?

18:40 A thinker for your birthday. That does totally make sense.

18:44 Right? Yeah.

18:45 Okay. See, now I'm back.

18:48 This is tricky.

18:50 Okay.

18:51 Let's take a quick.

18:52 Break and we'll figure out what actually happens in the movie. And I think I'm going to learn something. So we'll be right back. And we're back. And we're back.

19:13 Okay, here is the recap of Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. We meet a group of friends who are staying at a big rich people house for a hurricane party because a big storm is about to hit.

19:30 I like this conceptually.

19:32 I've never heard of this, but I like the idea.

19:36 I've fundamentally done something similar to this, but it wasn't like on purpose. It was just that I was in college when Hurricane Sandy happened. And I lived in a frat house. and we were all like, let's just hang out at the house and watch Purple Rain. So, kind of.

19:51 That sounds so wholesome.

19:52 I know.

19:54 My version of that was when the whole city of Boston was locked down because they were looking for the marathon bomber, and everyone had to stay inside for a weekend.

20:03 I was there too.

20:06 Yeah, we were all there.

20:07 We were all.

20:09 drinking and refreshing Reddit.

20:11 What a time to be alive. What a time to be alive.

20:14 Truly.

20:14 So yeah, they're gathering for a hurricane party. The friends are Sophie, played by Amandla Stenberg, and her new girlfriend, Bea, played by Maria Bakalova.

20:27 Amandla Stenberg, I feel like it is an interesting Rorschach test of where you know them best from. Are you thinking Amandla Stenberg of The Hunger Games? Are you thinking of Amandla Stenberg of The Hate U Give? Or are you thinking, as I was, Amandla Stenberg of Dear Evan Hansen? Because let's not forget they were in Evan Hansen. We've got to cover Evan Hansen on the pod. It's on the docket.

20:54 I forgot they were in that. And they do stay in casting.

20:56 I think they want you to forget.

20:58 They stay involved in casting controversy in a way that I find fascinating. And I think there was some controversy, not in the casting with this one, but there was a review that was controversial about Bodies, Bodies, Bodies.

21:09 I remember that, yeah.

21:11 But I feel like they're always kind of in a storm with everything that they're in. And right now it's the Children of Blood and Bone casting, I think, that they're in trouble for. Again? Yeah.

21:23 God.

21:26 Always, every day.

21:27 Leave them alone.

21:28 I remember all the horrible racist comments regarding their casting in Hunger Games.

21:35 The Hunger Games, yeah. That's the big thing I remember.

21:37 And then the issue with The Hate U Give is people were concerned that they were too light-skinned versus the person on the cover of the book, which actually I found out because on my long-deceased podcast, Popcorn Book Club, We actually spoke to Angie Thomas, who wrote The Hate U Give, and she told us that Amanda was cast before they did the cover.

21:59 Oh, okay.

22:00 So I think that's really interesting.

22:02 And regardless, it's like bullying a teenager over a casting director. It's like, leave them out of it. God, no. I didn't realize that there was, I haven't been following Children of Blood and Bone because fantasy franchises stress me out. But I do remember now that you're saying this, the review and the discourse that the Bodies, Bodies, Bodies review inspired.

22:31 Just let Amanda Stenberg live their life. My God. Leave them alone.

22:35 Okay. So Sophie and Bea. arrive at the house, and Sophie introduces Bea to her friends for the first time, because it's Sophie's group of friends. The other friends are Jordan, played by Myhala. I'm not sure if I said that right. Alice, played by Rachel Sennett, and the much older guy that she recently started dating, Greg, played by Lee Pace. There's David and Emma, who are a couple... played by Pete Davidson and Chase Swee Wonders. And the house they're in belongs to David's dad, which is like this, again, huge mansion.

23:21 All of these people come from wealthy families. Several of the friends seem not very thrilled to see Sophie because she apparently didn't let them know she was coming. She had sort of fallen off the face of the earth and no one had heard from her in a while.

23:35 So.

23:38 There's some tension around that. There's also Bea seeming very out of place and this friend group not really warming up to her. Then it starts raining. The hurricane begins. So they head inside. And as the night wears on, they're dancing, drinking, they're doing drugs. We get a sense of various dynamics between members of this friend group where David, for example, is threatened by Greg and how handsome he is.

24:07 And he's jealous of the cool party trick that Greg can do where he pops off the cork of a champagne bottle with a sword that belongs to David's dad.

24:16 Which is pretty cool to see.

24:19 Which is pretty cool.

24:20 It is.

24:20 It's honestly a good trick.

24:22 That's a nice thing to impress somebody at a party. I would be impressed.

24:25 That is really impressive.

24:27 I'd go home with them.

24:28 You know, I'm like, you know, maybe Pete Davidson, you know, say what you will about his character, but you know, maybe I would crash out in that scenario as well. Because you just start putting a position where you simply there's, there's no coming back from that.

24:42 I also love that Greg says, I just found this on the wall. And I'm like, it was on the wall.

24:49 That's a good joke.

24:50 Yeah.

24:51 Oh, I feel, Greg, Lee Pace really is so delightful in this movie.

24:57 A joy.

24:57 I feel like he uniquely knows what movie he's in.

25:01 So yeah, David is jealous of Greg. Meanwhile, Jordan and Bea are sort of vibing right in front of Sophie. So Sophie's like, what the fuck? Then Sophie suggests they all play a game called Bodies, Bodies, Bodies.

25:16 And we're all like.

25:17 That's the name of the movie.

25:18 Right.

25:18 The game that we love to play.

25:21 That we know the rules to.

25:24 Maybe I'm realizing I'm obsessed with rules, but I love a good, this is how you play the game sequence. And they spent like 15 seconds on it. And then they start slapping each other. I was like, I don't know this game.

25:36 So the way they describe it, it seems similar to games like Werewolf or Mafia, but Bodies, Bodies, Bodies makes less sense. There are fewer moving parts and the moving parts that are there don't track. So you're just like, huh? But basically, as they describe it, they all have to draw a scrap of paper. Whoever draws the paper with an X on it is assigned to be the murderer, but only they know that they are the murderer. Then they turn off all the lights. The murderer has to sneak around and touch someone to signify that they have quote unquote killed that person who then has to lie down and pretend to be dead. When this quote unquote dead body is discovered, you call out bodies, bodies, bodies.

26:27 And then everyone else comes running and they have to figure out who among them is the quote unquote murderer.

26:33 Is this a Dutch thing? Is this a Dutch thing?

26:36 Is Helena Ryan like everyone's going to know what this is?

26:39 Well, Kristen Rupenian came up with it.

26:42 Oh, right. Okay, so we don't even have Dutch plausible deniability. I don't know why this drove me up a wall on this viewing. I think you know what it is. I just started watching The Traitors. And so I'm very into like every rule of this game is so crucial. And I love to watch the game be played.

27:05 Have you seen the movie The Blackening?

27:07 Yes.

27:08 Yes.

27:08 Yes.

27:08 Yeah. I feel like you'd like that. It's all gameplay.

27:11 I know. Well, it's like that there, they, they have a great gameplay sequence and you know what the rules are. And so you're just locked in and the characters are mostly likable.

27:22 And, and shout out to our blackening episode. We covered it a year or two ago.

27:28 Wonderful. Wonderful.

27:30 So yeah, those are the rules of the game. the quote unquote dead body ends up being Greg and everyone else convenes to discuss who they think the killer is. Things get pretty tense right off the bat. So Greg goes to bed. He's like, I don't want to be a part of this. And everyone is accusing David of being the murderer. And he gets really aggro and defensive about it and then storms off. Then the power goes out.

28:03 Maybe it was the storm. Maybe it was David turning off the power. They don't know, but they disperse to look for the breaker box. And B finds David outside, his throat having just been slit. And it seems like someone actually killed him for realsies. And so everyone is freaking out. And no one has service to call 911.

28:29 They try to leave in Sophie's car. But the car won't start because of Chekhov's. Bea accidentally left the light on the mirror earlier and it killed the battery.

28:40 Sure.

28:42 And there are for some reason no other cars there because their friend Max... brought them in his car and then left the night before. And he was supposed to come back, but he hasn't shown up yet. So no one knows where Max is.

28:57 Also, he punched David prior to leaving. So there was conflict.

29:01 Right.

29:01 Yeah.

29:02 So they head back to the house and Jordan finds the sword from earlier covered in blood. Then that seems to be the murder weapon. So they start being like, well, who killed David? Um, Was it the elusive Max? Was it Greg? Because Alice reveals that she has only known Greg for two weeks. So he's a wild card, more or less. So they go looking for him. They find some weird shit in his luggage. And then they discover Greg in the like, home gym slash basketball court that's just in this enormous house.

29:42 This scene is kind of a mess, but it is my favorite scene in the movie. It's pretty fun.

29:47 Lee Pace in the middle. What is it?

29:50 The, like... light therapy mask.

29:53 Yeah. Right.

29:54 You're like, yeah, that is chilling.

29:55 That is a chilling thing to see.

29:57 He's like a foot and a half taller than everyone.

30:00 He's so, he's, he's far too big.

30:02 Like, right. Cause it's like these like five young women trying to, so basically what happens is they come at him with a butcher knife and a meat cleaver. And at first he thinks that they're still playing the game and that they're fucking with him, but things escalate. And he moves like he's about to attack one of them.

30:26 He's got his knife pointed at Sophie, I think. And so Bea strikes and kills him with a kettlebell. And so now they have another body, body, body to deal with.

30:37 Fun that we do start by knocking off the two men in the house.

30:42 It's like subversive. I'm listening.

30:45 I like it.

30:46 Yes.

30:47 So then Sophie and Emma get into a huge argument, but then they apologize shortly after and Sophie gives Emma some drugs. I have no idea what those drugs are because I'm too much of a square, but it's something to take the edge off, I think.

31:03 Xanax? I don't know.

31:05 Shrug.

31:06 Are we supposed to know? Are we supposed to be able to recognize drugs?

31:10 I don't know.

31:11 Sometimes I'm just like, wow, I was not invited to enough parties in high school to understand what's going on. Big parties that happened between ages 15 and 25, I'm like, I'll have to.

31:25 Take your word for it.

31:26 Wasn't there.

31:27 Was not there.

31:29 So yeah, there's some kind of drug that Emma takes And a short time later, Alice finds Emma's body, body, body. It seems like she either fell down or maybe was pushed down the stairs and she died. but they have no idea what happened. They question who the killer was in the game and if there's any correlation between what happened in the game and what's happening in real life.

31:59 Rachel Sennett's character is really going on about this, but it makes absolutely no sense because she's like, yeah, it's following the same pattern. And it's like, no, it's not.

32:09 You stop playing the game before a pattern could be established. Right.

32:13 I wish they.

32:14 Again, I just wish they'd kept playing the damn game. I know that they have no reason to, but it is like we learn about the titular bodies, bodies, bodies, and then 15 minutes later, they're just kind of flailing around for the next hour. Yeah.

32:30 If we have one note, it's more rules.

32:33 I just want more bodies, bodies, bodies for crying out loud. The game, not like dead bodies.

32:39 And why not both? Why not both? Por que no los dos?

32:41 But.

32:44 Okay, so they're trying to figure out who the killer might be. They start pointing fingers at Bea since they don't really know her either. And Sophie has only known her for six weeks. And they discover that she lied about where she went to college. So she is not trustworthy. And so Alice and Jordan kick Bea out of the house and into the hurricane that's raging outside. So Bea takes shelter in the car. where she finds a pair of underwear that do not belong to her or Sophie.

33:19 So that's weird.

33:21 And we do get a sniff test. She does sniff the underwear.

33:24 Yes.

33:25 Yes. And also it matches a bra that she saw earlier. Yep.

33:30 Check out this bra.

33:32 I missed that.

33:33 Yeah. So Jordan, when they were looking for what's his face, Greg, she was like, he's not in my bra. And it's like a yellow bra that matches.

33:42 Okay, here is my other, here's another problem for me with this movie is that most of it takes place in the dark. There's only like flashlights lighting everything. So I didn't know what was happening over half the time.

33:56 I could not see.

33:57 I was like, who's doing what? Anyway, so Bea sneaks back into the house through a doggy door. And while she's doing that, she sees Jordan with a gun. So B comes in and accuses Jordan of being the killer of killing David and Emma. At first, Jordan denies having a gun, but then she starts waving it around. And then she reveals that she and Sophie had sex in Sophie's car like.

34:29 A few days ago.

34:30 Hence the mysterious underwear that B found. But Sophie denies this. And then they're all like arguing and screaming about how they all secretly hate each other. Alice says something that really sets Jordan off. So Jordan shoots Alice in the leg. They all start scuffling and then Alice gets shot again.

34:51 It kills her.

34:53 So now there's Alice's body, body, body. And then another one when B throws Jordan from the balcony while Jordan and Sophie are kind of like struggling and wrestling with each other. And in her dying breath, Jordan tells Bea to check Sophie's texts for proof that Sophie cheated on Bea with Jordan. So Bea is like, hey, Sophie, did you have sex with Jordan? And Sophie continues to deny it.

35:25 So Bea like just runs away. She like hides in the house until the sun comes up. Sophie finds her again. and admits that she might have been responsible for Emma's death because she gave Emma those drugs and Emma probably was super high and tripped and fell down the stairs. And B is like, yeah, that's fine and everything, but did you cheat on me? And she wants to see Sophie's phone. So they start scuffling. They like fall in the pool and stuff and then like scramble back out.

35:57 B grabs a phone, but wait a minute, it's David's phone. And on it, they see a video of him trying to do the champagne bottle opening trick that Greg did at the beginning of the movie. And David accidentally slices his own throat. So all of these people died slash killed each other because of a murder that never actually took place.

36:21 Because, yes, fragile masculinity was the killer part. all along which is an idea I like in theory maybe not as much in execution although I do I will say that the video itself the Pete Davidson the Peter Davidson performance of killing himself with a sword by mistake is fun is fun I agree yeah.

36:45 I do I will third that I think that it's very fun.

36:50 And then the movie ends with the elusive Max finally showing up Seeing the chaos and all the bodies, bodies, bodies, and being like, what happened?

36:59 And as with every movie of the 2020s so far, it is inexplicably Connor O'Malley coming in for one scene at the very end of the movie. I still don't have a sense of who he is.

37:11 I don't know this man. Sorry to this man.

37:15 I like Connor a lot.

37:15 I think he's great.

37:17 And if you have... I don't know.

37:19 It's like if you date a certain kind of guy, you will be hearing about him.

37:26 If you know, you know. And if you don't, that's fine. If you don't, you're free.

37:29 Well, that's the movie.

37:30 So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

37:45 And we're back. And we're back.

37:48 Karama, is there anywhere you'd like to start?

37:53 Yeah.

37:54 Greg isn't wet. Greg isn't wet when they come and confront him. And there's no way he could have killed David without getting wet. I don't understand why nobody thinks about that. His hair is dry. He is bone dry.

38:09 Right.

38:10 And I just feel like that's a key component. And they're just so quick. To jump on the outsiders. First Greg and then when Greg is dead, then Bea. And they're like, well, we know you've killed somebody. She's like, I killed somebody to protect you. What are you talking about?

38:24 That is very women's wrongs.

38:27 Women's wrongs abound in this one.

38:31 And I just, I find it interesting that the like insiders are the first people to die. And the most insider person is David as it's his house. He's rich. He's white. He's cisgender. He's heterosexual. He's able-bodied. He's American. He's a man. He is the majority. Like truly every majority you can be.

38:52 The epitome of privilege.

38:54 Yes. And he's the first person that dies. And I think that it's interesting that also when Emma dies and she's, you know, this pretty actress, I don't think that she is fully white, but she could, I think in some instances present as more white. She's high as a kite. people have been seeing her doing stuff all night, even if they didn't see the stuff that Sophie gave her.

39:19 And she's at the bottom of stairs that are covered in blood. But the immediate question is, who is responsible for this? And I was like, is it possible? Is it possible that she fell? I just, i think it's interesting the the idea of when people like her and david die somebody must be responsible and there's no investigation beyond just like which of us did it meanwhile there's a storm out what is the probability that somebody is hiding in the storm coming to kill you guys for funsies.

39:48 That is a really good, I guess maybe this kind of gets at, like, I feel like, I don't know, we'll figure out in real time, like, what it, like, isn't quite feeling right about this story. I do think that there is, like, to your point, Karama, there are the insiders and the outsiders, and they are treated differently, but there is still this, like, mob mentality that seems to form that I think in certain moments, like, just doesn't really make.

40:19 Where it's just, I don't know.

40:22 I mean, the Lee Pace not being, not being wet, I think is a very funny, like for, for a movie that does seem to want to subvert horror tropes, there are some like fairly like clear things to subvert or, or like point out even in like a kind of scream kind of way that it's, doesn't really happen i feel like there's not always sort of the character having that like wait can we take a second which i think normally in these like in these setups you see that i don't know.

40:55 I know and i feel like well i don't i guess i don't really know what the intention of this movie is if it wants us to think there is a mysterious killer on the loose for most of it. And we're wondering who it might be. Is it one of the people that we have already gotten to know? Is it a mysterious outside person who we don't know yet?

41:18 Is it this Max person who we haven't seen? Because it seems like the movie wants you to suspect certain people at certain times. If that's the case, I feel like there needs to be There need to be more red herrings.

41:33 Yes.

41:33 More characters that we introduce that could be potential culprits.

41:38 The suspect, yeah, maybe that's like the reason that various people become suspects never quite scans to me, I guess.

41:47 And to be clear, this is not like a feminism critique necessarily. This is more of just like a screenwriting.

41:54 It's a structural.

41:56 It is trying to exist in a genre without actually taking in the conventions of that genre i mean right if it's a slasher film somebody needs a body needs to drop in the.

42:05 First couple of minutes like a body body body a.

42:08 Body body body and we don't get any body bodies bodies bodies until fairly far into the film.

42:14 Yeah about 25 30 minutes yeah.

42:17 Which you know end of first act okay fair i will say in the kristen rupenian script it was like page 46 of 91 when I finally get a body, body, body.

42:28 Tell us more about this. Tell us more about this script.

42:31 I'm so curious. Yeah.

42:33 So it is freely available online. If anybody is interested in checking it out, I just like Googled Kristen Rupinian bodies, bodies, bodies. Um, and I hope that I'm saying her name right, but, um, it is at a cabin instead of a mansion, which I think is interesting. Um, But it's a cabin with a basement. So it's still very like rich people cabin.

42:53 But it's a snowstorm that's happening. And they have an annual trip that they take for skiing. And it's this friend group. A lot of the names are different. B is still the same for some reason. And B is Korean in the script. And there is one person who nobody knows. Or not nobody knows. But he's the new friend in the group. And they establish at one point that they always have a new person that they bring.

43:18 They call them the wild card. And they are playing Never Have I Ever in a hot tub. And they're like, never have I ever been arrested. And then they find out that David's been arrested before. And, uh, at the end of the game, the new guy whose name is either Scott or Matt, I can't remember because they're just two double T names. And I was like, I'm not going to know who's who. I can't see them.

43:41 Is that like theoretically who the, who becomes the Lee Pace character?

43:45 Yes.

43:46 Yeah. That is, I would say the Lee Pace sort of analog. Um, so he puts his finger down at some point during Never Have I Ever, but everybody's like, wait, when did you put your finger down? And he's like, oh, wouldn't you like to know or whatever? Okay. And so then they decide to play Body Swappings. They play King's Cup first. There's a lot of game in this, Jamie.

44:03 You might love it.

44:04 They want to play a game.

44:06 But they don't explain.

44:07 Damn.

44:07 They don't explain King's Cup at all.

44:09 Okay.

44:10 Another.

44:11 You have to. And you have to explain the game. I really am like begging you both to just watch the introduction to the body swapping game and it's what's inside.

44:20 It's so satisfying. There's all these fun shots.

44:22 I'm going to watch the movie. I'm excited. I'm excited about the game.

44:25 I love the game.

44:25 Yeah. So they play King's Cup and then they play Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. They explain the game. They show somebody getting bored at the rules being explained.

44:34 Okay.

44:34 That was hilarious.

44:36 Wouldn't be me, but.

44:37 They're smoking weed and explaining the game. And then they start playing the game. They actually play the game. Two people die in game before we get into like craziness.

44:47 So they fake get killed.

44:49 Yes, they get fake killed. In the context of the game. And they get into the mechanics and the like politics of who is the killer and And they're like accusing people. And there's a lot of logistics. And I was like, Kristen, we can cut some of this.

45:01 I'm so sorry.

45:03 But it's like, if you were upstairs and you heard so-and-so and da-da-da-da-da, then it has to be David and whatever. So then the main character whose name, I truly cannot remember anybody's name, Ashley. I think her name's Ashley. She goes downstairs and she is like, wait, where did everybody go? Because that's where all the dead people are supposed to be.

45:23 Nobody's there. The door to outside is wide open. They're scared now. Maybe a drifter has come in. What's going on? And then she's like, why is nobody coming when I'm calling bodies, bodies, bodies? Cause I found a body, body, body, uh, earlier and the lights are all out. So they have flashlights and then they find their first dead body, but they find all the bodies in quick succession and And I will say, I read it this morning and like I emailed you guys, I thought we were meeting an hour earlier than we actually were. So I was skimming a lot near the end because I was like, oh my God, this is taking forever. But they find the bodies like back to back to back and they're stuffed in a closet. Most of them are stuffed in a closet.

46:05 And that's when they get freaked out. And then Matt or Scott, one of them, one of them's dead, one of them's new. comes down the stairs they're like where have you been he was like oh sorry I passed out I couldn't hear anything because he has been drinking and doing drugs all night and so he was like I fell asleep and they're like you fell asleep and he said okay I passed out I was really high sorry and they're suspicious of him he has the other guy's keys and they're like why do you have his keys you must have killed him and he says no he gave me his keys earlier to go on a beer run you saw it happen don't you remember but they get really scared and then they kill him Um, one of them kills him. I think it is Casey.

46:46 Casey kills him. Then there's just the three women left. Like in the version we get, we kill all the men first. Uh, and one woman, Liz dies. Also, I I'm just throwing names at you, but, uh, we now have B Casey and Ashley left. These are our final girls.

47:04 Sure.

47:06 And one of them realizes, Oh, we have to turn the lights back on. It's not the storm. Somebody cut a wire in the closet. If we just reattach the wires, we'll be able to get service and we can call on the landline to call 911. So Ashley goes in, leaves B outside to do that. And Casey and Ashley are inside and they start screaming while she's on the line with 911. So B runs back in with the phone and sees that Ashley has been stabbed by Casey. No, sorry.

47:38 Casey has been stabbed by Ashley. And each one of them is accusing the other one. They're like, there is nobody else in the house because they got blocked in at one point also. So they're like, oh, somebody else is in the house. It's not just us. There isn't somebody else in the house. Each of them is accusing the other one. And Ashley and Bea are dating. And she finds out that Ashley has been cheating on her with Liz, who is now deceased. And so she's like, I don't know if I can trust you. And so they decide we're just going to throw the the knife under the couch and I'll just wait for the police because she's called 911. And as they are waiting, B gets up really quickly or like turns around for a second.

48:16 And then she sees that Casey has stabbed Ashley. And she's like, Casey, why are you doing this? And she's like, you guys have all been hanging out with my ex-boyfriend behind my back because our ex-boyfriend cheated on her and then was stalking her. So it's not like an unreasonable thing to be upset about.

48:29 Sure.

48:29 Not this level of upset. And she said that, her boyfriend knew she would be there because it's an annual trip and they've cut him out of the friend group in front of her. So they didn't invite him. They invited her and they've been pretending to choose her. According to the ex, she killed her ex, stuffed him under the, um, under the porch, which he's like, I was going to blame it all on him, but it's been so long that he's probably frozen. So now I'm just gonna have to blame it on you. And, uh, she stabs B as the police are coming and she's, and she, she pretends that she's in trouble, kind of like in Get Out, where the girlfriend is on the phone. And she's like, oh no, I'm so scared, help me. And she says

49:07 that as the cops are outside the door. She's like, B, no, don't hurt me. And then like stabs B and slices her throat. And she's like, I'm a white girl, they're gonna believe me. And then the cops come in and they get dispatched and they're like oh we hear that the 911 dispatcher is still on the line and apparently somebody's lying so then that's how they realize that Casey is the real murderer and B with her final breath calls Casey a liar and that's the end of the movie okay I think that this is, I think that the version we saw is stronger in a lot of ways.

49:42 I agree.

49:43 I agree.

49:43 I mean, I I'm curious, first of all, thank you for, for reading that whole script. Of course.

49:49 It definitely does sound like, I don't know.

49:51 There there's elements that at least sound like address some of the things that I found like a little bit more frustrating about this movie, but also it also kind of sounds like a mess.

50:01 And you know, that's why there are multiple drafts of things. I, yeah. I'm fascinated that A24 bought this, though. And this was A24' s first spec script that they purchased. Because usually A24 was just distributing films that had already been made prior to 2022, I believe. And they were not producing their own stuff. They were a distribution company. But this is the first one that they ever bought. And I'm like, that? That?

50:29 Her i'm so curious if it was just truly like one of those situations and oh you know whatever all due respect to kristen ripanian i honestly the cat person drama kind of entered and left me i don't have a great recall on exactly where.

50:47 We landed as a culture on cat person but i.

50:50 Think we were cat person neutral by the end of it i yeah i'm just like i just sort of want it to be over but so that short story came out in 2017 and they bought the script in 2018 so i'm guessing it's just like oh this is the writer of the moment let's see what she's got and it.

51:05 It happened to be bodies bodies bodies and you know good for her good for her good for.

51:08 Her because it is it is a good concept and it's like a really hard concept to execute in a way that's Fun and tense. I think that the reason... I don't mind... I guess what I'll say is I don't mind that the characters in this movie are not likable.

51:24 I get that that is the point.

51:26 But I think that if we are making all of the characters so unlikable, I need a little more to grasp onto in terms of who are they to each other.

51:35 We get so.

51:37 Because I'm thinking another, you know, a movie with a different premise, but that also involves as a lot of people's like first kind of lower budget or like first break into a new country movie is, is we're in one location and it's a group of friends coming back together after a long time. This is a premise we see all the time. But I was thinking of Companion, which for all of its faults, you do at least have enough of an idea of what the relationship of the couple going into the house is before you get there.

52:09 And I feel like one of the big issues I have with this movie is that, that Sophie and B, I don't think we have enough of what their relationship is before we throw B into the soup. And so that was like, just from like a writing standpoint, I found it a little tricky because I was like, what is the problem in this relationship?

52:31 Like, I think what the difference, the core difference for me in those two, and I do agree that Companion is better at it, is that this is not the first time they've met the friend group and Companion. So she's like, I'm nervous because I already think they hate me versus we don't really understand why Bea is nervous.

52:52 We get Sophie saying, oh, Jordan's going to be obsessed with you. I don't know who Jordan is or why she'd be obsessed with Bea. I don't know anything about Bea except that she texts her mom. And allegedly works at Game Hut.

53:04 And because they're... I mean, it's interesting to know that B's character was originally Korean because it makes this whole friend group seem anti-Bulgarian, question mark. And I was like, does this happen? Are we... Like, so I just... There are a few things that just, I don't know. Yeah. That's a great point. It's like there, there's just like the shared history was a little bit confusing to me, both with the couple going in and with the friend group once you get there. So I just feel like I didn't have a lot to hold on to in terms of like, I'm not rooting for the couple really, because it seems like they seem like fine people. people but like you know clearly maybe don't belong together but

53:52 like you're i don't know i just like i couldn't find a character to be like yay except except honestly because it's like it's so you're kind of going performance to performance um we're like i don't know like i just like the performances are good but the characters weren't like written to like cohere in a way that made sense to me it.

54:12 Seems like we are meant to be primarily empathizing with b because we are seeing most of the story unfold through her point of view there are some like omniscient scenes but a lot of it we are with b experiencing things through her point of view and compared to the other characters she to me at least is definitely the most likable because everyone else is so yeah vapid.

54:44 I like alice I was going to say, Rachel is so fun to watch. For sure.

54:51 I don't want to hang out with Alice, but from the perspective of watching it, I'm like, yeah, she's fun for a night.

54:57 From one podcaster to another. Like a party.

55:00 A fellow podcaster.

55:02 And as Alice points out. A podcast takes a lot of work. You have to organize the guest. You have to do a Google calendar. You have to build a following. It takes a long fucking time and we've been working at it for a while.

55:14 And that's so true.

55:15 I'm proud of her.

55:18 We're proud of her.

55:19 And her podcast about hanging out with your funniest and smartest friend.

55:23 Look, that's like 90% of podcasts.

55:27 Right?

55:28 Yeah.

55:29 So anyway, we're experiencing things through Bea's point of view, which is fine. But I think then we also, yeah, we don't get enough insight into the rest of the character's Or even her. Because I almost feel like, so attention is called to the fact that she is talking to her, like texting with her mom a lot. I almost thought that that was going to be revealed to be a lie and that she was actually talking to someone else and who's the big mystery of who she's actually talking to. But then all of that just, to quote A Star is Born, falls by the wayside. So I'm like, well, then why did you even set that up? Right.

56:14 It feels like there are a lot of threads that just kind of go nowhere. Because there's also the thing with, it's implied that the reason Sophie shows up to this gathering that she was invited to, but never confirmed that she was coming to, never let anyone know that she was bringing her new girlfriend, is that Sophie wants to convince David to talk to her parents about, To get her trust back because we learned that Sophie has dealt with addiction issues and went to rehab and apparently got cut off by her parents. And she's trying to get cut on.

56:54 And that issue is both like very relevant to the story, but also brought up. in a way that felt kind of selective to like when the plot needed addiction to be a plot point, if it came one.

57:09 It felt poorly handled. And I feel also just on this thread, I feel like race was also poorly handled in this quite because the only time that anybody ever mentions race is when she's like, Oh, so when the black girl does cocaine, it's a problem. But when the white people do cocaine, it's fine. And I'm like, I do think they all have a problem to be fair.

57:31 Sure.

57:32 And also there, but like, there's also a difference between addiction and people who are doing cocaine and they shouldn't be necessarily doing cocaine all the time. But like addiction is a very specific thing. And it seems like she had a problem. They describe her as like peeing on the New York subway. Right. Which is not behavior that we're seeing from anybody else in this. So I think that like, there's this idea of her playing a black card and these, these like identity politics. And she also says feelings are facts, which is I think the most insane line I've ever heard. And it just kind of, that scene for me was the core of what my issue with this movie is. It seems like a farce about Gen Z as opposed to having real Gen Z

58:15 characters who have full interior lives. Like they definitely feel like cardboard cutout Gen Z, which is fine. if that's the thing that you're trying to say, but I don't think that it says that well either.

58:26 No, it's like ultimately you have this movie from what I mean, it was, it was written and directed by white women in their forties. And I feel like you can, and we love when women are making movies. However, this movie is trying to bite off a lot and comment on a lot in a very like satirical way that I feel like maybe the team they assembled was not really, Like speaking to your point, Caramba, like everything is acknowledged, but like the way that it's brought up feels kind of unnatural.

59:01 Yeah.

59:01 Yeah. I would be curious like what the actors make of that too. Obviously they can't really say it when they're promoting the movie, but I'd be curious to like hear the recommendations. on this because it does feel in a way that's like hard to quantify but it feels like someone writing young people instead of something that feels authentic which can be which can work anyways and can be like campy and fun and I think in some it's like when this movie is trying to be serious, I'm kind of like, well, that's not the movie you set up for me. And I don't really buy it starting to be serious now. There's a lot of stuff in that sequence. We get talk about that Bea is taking care of her mother, who they specifically state has borderline,

59:50 which is, I thought, kind of out of pocket. Out of pocket and very unspecific in a way that I don't think really helps with the representation of borderline and doesn't really seem to have much of an understanding of like, well, what do you mean by that? You know, race is brought up one time.

1:00:11 I don't know.

1:00:13 There's like certain moments where we are supposed to be taking these issues seriously. And then there's certain moments where it's brought up as like, oh, these girls are too woke for their own good. And it kind of will oscillate between those ideas within the same scene. Totally.

1:00:29 Yeah, I was struggling with that as well. Because, I mean, so much of the dialogue is characters talking about or saying phrases.

1:00:39 They're like weaponizing therapy talk.

1:00:41 Right.

1:00:42 It's like, you're gaslighting me. You're toxic.

1:00:44 You trigger me. You're silencing me. And depending on the context... like you said, Jamie, like those are serious issues. If someone is being gaslit, if someone is triggering someone else needlessly or deliberately or whatever, but a lot of times in the movie, when characters say those things, it's the punchline of the joke or it's almost presented as like a satirical takedown of like Gen Z speak.

1:01:13 Again, the cardboard cutout of it all is interesting. Yeah. And I do also, just again on race, I was fascinated by the fact that the only black people in this movie were both biracial. And also Chase Sweet Wonders, I believe, is biracial. Yeah. And I think that there's something interesting to be commented on there in terms of privilege and people of color in spaces of privilege. And like, who is invited to these spaces and proximity to whiteness in these spaces that maybe is not for this movie, but is something that I was thinking about. I don't think that the movie would have handled it well based on what we've got if they did try to tackle it.

1:01:51 But that was just something I was extremely conscious of. And I do think it's interesting that the actresses, Uh, the actors, I literally earlier was talking about how I don't like the word actress and then I just said it.

1:02:02 It's top of mind. It's top of mind.

1:02:05 Uh, the actors who play these two characters, one of them is a biracial person with a white mom and a black dad. The other person is a biracial actor with a, which one did I just say? They, they have different configurations of parentage. One has a white dad, one has a white mom. And there's a lot of discourse in terms of, like, black spaces about, like, quote-unquote white mom biracials and how their proximity to whiteness and the way that they behave is different because child rearing is primarily a task taken on by the mother. So I think that that could have been an interesting thing to tackle. But I also, again, I don't know that these are the people to do it.

1:02:46 But this movie. The writer-director.

1:02:48 Probably not.

1:02:50 I mean.

1:02:51 it feels like there is like a lot with regard to race that is like, that it would have been possible to talk about in this movie that, I.

1:03:00 Mean, thinking somebody has a gun and then it being a cell phone in her pocket. Right.

1:03:05 But then it's like, Oh, well, but it makes sense to be, it's like, well, like, I don't think B maybe gets, gets enough smoke for that. I, it's interesting.

1:03:15 Like, I don't know.

1:03:16 And, and like you're saying Karama, like, I don't think that this, this creative team would have been the team to, to get somewhere, but it felt interesting where it's like, everything is on the table, but race specifically felt like the issue that everyone was like, it felt very like post-racial the way that everyone was talking to each other, but it wasn't like that on any other issue.

1:03:38 Like, well, it's, it's very not intersectional in the fact that like, it kind of paints them all as everybody's rich. Right. And that means that the race stuff doesn't matter because they're all rich and, and, there's the famous scene where Jordan's being told by Alice, your parents, like you're obsessed with your rags to riches narrative, but your parents are upper middle class.

1:04:00 Right.

1:04:01 And Jordan is like, they're not. And she's very attached to this idea of being sort of below the rest of them in a way, because I think that it allows her not to examine the ways that she's complicit or I don't know, in the trappings of wealth. but you know and she's the one that understands because um what's her face Sophie is like oh no David David's dad wouldn't have a gun his politics check out and then Jordan's like his dad is rich rich people have guns and she's the one that understands wealth in that way so I think she wants to distance herself from it but you know she's kind of like picking at things saying well yeah my parents are university professors but it's public so that's different right.

1:04:47 This movie felt to me like an example of a movie that is written and directed by white people that acknowledges that their cast should be diverse. So the casting is. is diverse, but then they didn't go back to the script and make adjustments that they might've needed to make based on the actors who they cast to play whichever character.

1:05:14 And that's why it feels to me like race is for the most part ignored.

1:05:20 B being Korean in the other script also is never acknowledged beyond a descriptor. I don't think they ever say anything like no microaggressions, no macroaggressions, just like, they mentioned she's Korean and then I don't think it ever.

1:05:35 Comes up again. But it's like, we're also told that this group, I mean, and also this like team's conception of how they're satirizing Gen Z in general would be hyper aware of these things. And almost like it's made, there's one joke about it with Alice's character where she sort of does the, you know, the like flailing white girl thing that, you know, every white.

1:05:59 Girl has done. of like, no, I'm an ally.

1:06:02 I totally get it. I understand. But again, it's like, it's sort of just that one time. It just feels like checking a box of acknowledging that this is something that happens versus having it meaningfully work into the story.

1:06:15 Right.

1:06:16 Yeah.

1:06:16 And all of that, I.

1:06:17 Mean, everything we just talked about sort of is isolated to one scene.

1:06:23 Right.

1:06:23 Toward the end. This all comes up in one scene towards the end. And I didn't have time to watch this twice to prepare today, but, like, I think for a lot of the stuff that pays off at the end, I think, like, sort of with the exception of, we know that, like, Sophie's friends are having different experiences with her returning to the group because of their experiences with her when she was using. That is set up. I didn't feel particularly, like, satisfied with how that is, like, handled especially at the end where that is you know like sophie has like relapsed which is very serious and that is like stated she she both relapses and sees something very very she sees emma fall down the stairs and feels guilty because like of all these things and

1:07:17 b's response is let me see your phone and so like that at the end is like acknowledged and like that that should be huge and then they just kind of move right and i don't know like it's just the the end with what i think that where the movie is like trying to say this is what it's about i still sort of was like i don't know i yeah i don't know we simply don't know.

1:07:42 Uh can we talk about how to I watched this movie, obviously, when it came out. And then I watched Baby Girl. I had a Baby Girl screener, so I watched it shortly after it came out. And both of them have Hedda Gabler. And when I re-watched this one, I was like, wait a second.

1:08:02 Hold on.

1:08:03 Because in Baby Girl, Antonio Banderas is directing a production of Hedda Gabler.

1:08:08 I totally forgot that. Oh, my God.

1:08:12 And Helena Rein, I don't know how I pronounce Dutch. Yeah. this nice director lady is obsessed with Hedda Gabler. And I went looking because I was like, has anyone talked about this? And she actually did talk about it on KCRW briefly. Wow. So they do a segment called The Treatment, I believe it's called. And I just, can I read really quickly from it?

1:08:37 Please.

1:08:38 Okay.

1:08:38 So for her treat, I'm going to say Ryan. I've decided that's where I'm going. For her treat, Ryan reflects on her appreciation for Hedda Gabler, the iconic play from 1891 by Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen. She first encountered the work during her time at theater school in Maastricht and found the role to be a rare opportunity to showcase her full range as an actress. Playing Hedda off the chance for her to dig into a character's full emotional depth, unlike some of the more limiting roles she had taken on before. Hedda struggles being stuck in an unhappy marriage while having the ability to shape her own fate, delved into the character's inner turmoil and existential despair. For Rhyme, stepping into Hedda's shoes was not only a deeply fulfilling

1:09:17 experience as an actress, but also turned out to be a big inspiration for creating Baby Girl. Wow. And then later it says, she says that with a lot of other roles, she felt very imprisoned and felt very limited. And she felt that the man had the better role. She always wanted to play Hamlet, but she always had to be Ophelia. And she talks a little bit about A Doll's House by Henrik Ibsen, which is also referenced in Baby Girl when the daughter does the tarantella. And I noticed that too. And I felt like none of the reviews for Baby Girl were talking about Ibsen. And I was like, there's so much Ibsen in this. And I feel like we're not talking about it. But maybe I'm just a little theater major.

1:09:54 You have to be the change.

1:09:58 But I thought it was interesting that Hedda Gabler comes up in both of these movies. And that she talks so much about the fact that it was a three-dimensional role for her. But it doesn't really feel like that's implemented properly. And I know she didn't write this one.

1:10:14 Yeah.

1:10:15 And she did write and direct Baby Girl. And I will say that Baby Girl does feel like Nicole Kidman's character is more three-dimensional. But even in the performances, which were good, I didn't feel like I was seeing three-dimensional moments. Like, you just talked, Jamie, about the scene where Bea is like, show me your phone after she's told this traumatic thing.

1:10:34 And I feel like there could be an expression of like, oh, I see that you're struggling with this, but also through that, I need to get satisfaction for the thing that I need to know. Like, there was no push-pull in the realization of that. And I think it's interesting that she's obsessed with Hedda Gabler. And that's, like, a thing that keeps coming up. And I just had to talk about it.

1:10:55 That is an incredible... I'm so... I totally forgot that that Hedda Gabler is so directly, like, name-checked and in the plot of Baby Girl. And like you're saying, like, it does seem to be there with a little more purpose maybe than it does here.

1:11:11 Yes.

1:11:11 Because in this.

1:11:12 Because, again, with Bodies, Bodies, Bodies, I feel like this is maybe... And maybe this is, like, a thing that in the horror and horror comedy genre... is just kind of being worked out or especially around 2022 is like, is this a horror movie that you can like glean societal messaging from? Or is this, is this a movie about society being told through horror? And I feel like this movie can't quite decide. Is it like a satirical look at Gen Z or is it like, Are we supposed to leave being like, wow, that really made me think?

1:11:46 It kind of goes back and forth, which is why that scene towards the end where everyone's where it's like they're, you know, it's basically setting you up for there is no killer. This group of people, depending on how you look at it, are either like not smart enough to live or are too traumatized to live. Again, you're like, which I don't really know. Which it is.

1:12:09 Or, like, too self-absorbed.

1:12:12 Like, I don't... But going back to Emma, yeah, like, Emma playing Hedda Gabler, if that.

1:12:19 It doesn't seem to, like, connect to.

1:12:21 Her character at all outside of, like, she is an actress?

1:12:25 Or does it?

1:12:26 I mean, there's one little thing where they have their argument, and part of it is that Emma's like, no, I loved David. And Sophie says, no, you didn't. You liked having a boyfriend. And you were miserable. And I guess Hedda Gabler is somebody who is trapped in a marriage that she doesn't want to be in. So there is that slight analog. But I do think overall, she barely has a character, frankly. I think she probably has the least character of anybody in this, which is saying something because David dies very quickly.

1:13:02 So quickly.

1:13:04 And still does sort of get the last word of... the movie, but, you know, many such cases. I do like that twist, like, that they're, I don't know, like, a slasher with no killer is a fun idea.

1:13:18 Speaking of no killer, do we know who the killer was in the game, in the movie? Did we ever find out?

1:13:26 We do find that out, yes. Oh, okay, I forgot.

1:13:28 Oh, it was Jordan.

1:13:30 In that, like, big info dump, yeah.

1:13:32 B comes back into the house after they kicked her out into the hurricane, and she has seen Jordan with a gun and says, empty your pockets. And Jordan empties her pockets and she has the little paper with the X on it. And so everyone's like, you are the killer. And she's like, yeah, in the game. What are you talking about?

1:13:54 I do think it's so messed up that Sophie lets them kick B out of the house into a storm. Like lock her in, lock her in a room. There's 85 rooms in this house.

1:14:04 Yeah.

1:14:05 Yeah.

1:14:06 Yeah.

1:14:07 I did write down visibility of underarm hair.

1:14:11 On a woman.

1:14:12 Yes. Liked that.

1:14:13 That's true.

1:14:14 That's true.

1:14:14 Jordan has underarm hair. I liked the line where Alice is defending Greg when they think that he might be the killer. And she says, he's a Libra moon. That counts for a lot.

1:14:29 And you know what?

1:14:30 It does count for a lot. She was right. He wasn't the killer.

1:14:33 He wasn't. That's so true.

1:14:35 She knew his heart. When Jordan has the gun and Bea sees her holding the gun, I said, oh no, Chekhov has entered the chat.

1:14:44 Yeah.

1:14:47 First Ibsen, now this.

1:14:49 Which like, again, that's the part that I'm like, what? Jordan wielding the gun... And shooting Alice, I was like, there were smarter ways. If everyone, if people need to keep dying and bodies, bodies, bodies need to keep piling up, there were just cleverer ways to do it. I feel like there just needed to be a little bit more backstory that gets established as far as. beef between characters and they do attempt to do that, but I feel like it just doesn't pay off in satisfying ways.

1:15:22 Maybe this is like, I'm like talking my way around this over the course of this like hour, but like there was like information about this friend group being withheld from us that I don't think needed to be like, why? Like, I guess that there's certain like reveals that are like, oh, that actually would have been really helpful to know an hour ago to like get me invested in this, character like there's so many reveals about the friend group at the end that like it just it felt like maybe if that information had been paced a little bit differently but sometimes by the time you find out something like empathetic about a character they're either already dead or like they're about to die so yeah it gets back to

1:16:03 the like I guess be on paper is the easiest character to root for but she's not the most fun to watch like so it's just it's it it's all it's all over the place.

1:16:14 I found them all to become less likable as the story went on too which i feel like if you have an unlikable character you kind of have to make them slightly more likable yeah right like they can say unlikable but give them a quick moment of redemption.

1:16:28 Yeah save the cat for example or just more like i mean with these like big hangout movies you do again, like you get a moment where.

1:16:39 Everyone is kind of having fun together, but it's mostly just like Sophie, like surveilling B is the focus of the one scene where they're all technically bonding and like having a good time, but there's no dialogue.

1:16:54 I think it's like mostly a Charlie XCX.

1:16:56 Song is playing and Sophie is like locking in on like, I am not okay with this, with how B is acting. And, and it, those, I don't know, like would have been fun to have, you know, like those little friendship dynamics that these actors, I'm sure, you know, would have been wonderful at just like being like, oh, these two are close for this reason or, you know, whatever, those little things in these kind of hangout movies that just felt like we, we kind of rushed through to get to the game that we don't play. That they barely play.

1:17:29 Yeah.

1:17:30 Yeah.

1:17:31 Worth noting that several of the characters are queer. because we have Sophie and Bea are obviously in a relationship. Sophie and Jordan formerly dated.

1:17:45 I think is what's implied.

1:17:47 And at the very least, they had sex in Sophie's car a few days prior.

1:17:52 Yeah, all three of our final girls are queer.

1:17:57 And then there's also the scene where Emma kisses, well, surprise kisses Emma, Sophie when Sophie is apologizing to her after she had said some of the cruelest things a person can say to another person and Sophie's like what the hell like what are you doing why are you kissing me and I also thought this was weird because I'm like Emma's like isn't this what you wanted I don't know if we are to understand that Emma is also queer or if she is just kissing Sophie for She's an enigma.

1:18:35 Who knows anything about Emma?

1:18:37 We know nothing.

1:18:38 She was Hedda.

1:18:39 She was Hedda.

1:18:40 And we know that. And that's for damn sure.

1:18:42 Apparently, she wasn't that good, too.

1:18:45 And they just... Like, R.I.P. R.I.P.

1:18:48 God.

1:18:49 These friends.

1:18:50 I mean, obviously, all these people hate each other. They're like, she's horrible in her play. Her podcast sucks ass. She is normal style rich, unlike she says. Like, it's just, I guess it's like, at the end of the day, I just feel like this movie.

1:19:05 Is, like, not my thing.

1:19:09 I like unlikable characters, but this one doesn't really.

1:19:12 I don't know what.

1:19:14 I think the movie would have worked better if it was more clearly a movie about class and commenting on class and commenting on the uber rich and leaned away from making fun of Gen Z and just focused more on the class aspect of it all.

1:19:37 I also feel like there was so much like class commentary film coming out in that era. We had like The Menu, Triangle of Sadness. We had Glass Onion. And if they were going to make fun of Gen Z, just do that, no class or just do class, no Gen Z. I feel like it does both poorly. And congratulations if you enjoy this film. I love that for you.

1:20:02 Yeah.

1:20:02 No judgment.

1:20:03 I just, and I liked it more this time. So, you know, it grows on you, I guess for people like me, but it just feels kind of very in between in a way that doesn't feel like it's committing to anything.

1:20:15 Yeah.

1:20:15 Yeah.

1:20:16 I laughed at a lot of the jokes, but yeah, it doesn't, the movie doesn't know what its intentions are slash maybe doesn't really have clear ones.

1:20:26 And it's not like, yeah, and it's not like a director, you know, that is not of a generation can't make a smart, incisive movie about a.

1:20:33 Generation they're not a part of. But this movie did.

1:20:35 I did sort of leave this viewing being like, man, I'm glad that Gen Z directors are like kind of working now. Shout out Backrooms. Yeah, exactly.

1:20:46 I think as an actor, your acting coaches and your acting teachers always tell you that if you have a character, you cannot hate your character. And I feel that the directors and writers do not like Gen Z and are annoyed by them. And I think you have to love something about them and that love has to come through.

1:21:05 And I didn't see any love. I could even take all of the stuff that's in this movie if I saw additional love of Gen Z in some way. And like, you know, I'm not Gen Z. I love many people who are Gen Z. Robert Pattinson, for one, famously Gen Z.

1:21:22 He's always saying this.

1:21:23 What?

1:21:24 That's not right.

1:21:25 No, no, no. He said in a Vanity Fair lie detector test thing, he was like, I'm Gen Z. Doesn't say I'm lying. No, exactly. So he's convinced he's Gen Z. He believes it in his heart. But I do think that like, Yeah, there are flaws with every generation and there are triumphs that every generation has over the generation before and the generation that follows. And I feel like we don't see any of that in commentary on Gen Z.

1:21:51 It feels like a send up without like it's like how roasts are not fun when it's just random famous people. They were fun when it was comedians who knew each other and who are like, we're going to hang out and get a drink after the show.

1:22:06 Right.

1:22:06 Who were doing that.

1:22:07 Because we all actually like each other.

1:22:08 Right.

1:22:08 But, like, why is Ann Coulter at your roast?

1:22:13 We really lost the plot on that one. Yeah. Yeah, I guess maybe that is getting a little closer to, like, I mean, I think we're all millennials. But, like, it kind of brought me, gave me war flashbacks of, like, avocado toast commentary.

1:22:28 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

1:22:29 You know, and in a way that, like, you can tell that the actors are care about the characters they're portraying but but when you can't feel it in the writing there's only so much the actors can do right right yeah yeah.

1:22:42 Yeah exactly does anyone have anything else they'd like to say about bodies times three justice for greg Justice for Greg.

1:22:52 Lee Pace.

1:22:53 We talked about him recently on our episode on The Fall and how great he is.

1:22:59 He was a vet. He liked puppies.

1:23:02 I think that was my favorite joke.

1:23:04 That was silly.

1:23:05 They think he's like a war veteran and he's actually a veterinarian's assistant.

1:23:11 Yeah. I was laughing.

1:23:13 This movie does have good jokes.

1:23:15 I'll give it that. Yeah.

1:23:17 It does pass the Bechdel test.

1:23:20 Handily.

1:23:20 Quite a bit.

1:23:21 Yes. Very well.

1:23:22 Yes.

1:23:23 When Alice is talking to the other young women about her podcast, it passes with flying colors.

1:23:31 Easily.

1:23:31 Yeah.

1:23:32 As far as our nipple scale though, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I mean, they're, There are things to appreciate about it, such as the men die immediately and the women stay living, at least a few of them by the end.

1:23:52 Queer women specifically.

1:23:53 Yes. Docket a little bit because Max is also alive at the end. So they left one man alive unscathed.

1:23:59 That's true. Fair.

1:24:01 Because it is so all over the place when it comes to things like race and class and it doesn't really know what to say or have anything.

1:24:09 Seems like it's.

1:24:10 Wanting to say things. wanting to comment on these things.

1:24:15 But simultaneously saying that but like making fun of people who do want to yeah right thoughtfully examine class and race and things like that there it is okay there it is okay we i i just felt an enormous sense of relief it's it's just it's just like sometimes i think especially in like comedy writing it's like if you're going to be cringe, you have to own it.

1:24:39 You have to embody it. You cannot in the same breath say, and anyone who says this, who.

1:24:43 Isn't me is an insincere loser.

1:24:46 Like, no, you have, you have to accept, you know? Right. Yeah.

1:24:51 So yeah, we got to the core of the issue with this movie as such. I will give it two and a half nipples. It feels like a split down the middle for me.

1:25:02 I don't know.

1:25:03 What do you guys think?

1:25:04 I was going to say, I was going to say two nipples. one nipple for keeping the women alive and one nipple for visible armpit hair.

1:25:13 I'm going to go two and a half. I, I'm, I feel, I mean, maybe I'm just like, because it was written and directed by women. I want to, I want to like enjoy it maybe more than I did, but, uh, I think that there are Just, I don't know.

1:25:30 There's, like, right now I feel like.

1:25:31 We're kind of entering a renaissance of, like, Gen Z comedies in general.

1:25:35 And we'll keep seeing that.

1:25:36 So this is, like, this was a start that's kind of a blip.

1:25:41 We need to see Gen Z films by Gen Z.

1:25:45 Yes.

1:25:45 Is the solution.

1:25:45 I mean, and we are, as a thing.

1:25:47 But I also will say, let women make mediocre movies.

1:25:51 Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

1:25:53 Yes.

1:25:53 Like, I love movies about, like, women misbehaving.

1:25:56 That's not the issue.

1:25:57 Mm-mm. Yeah, it's just that the movie hates its characters.

1:26:01 Right.

1:26:02 It's just like there's an open contempt for literally every person on screen that didn't feel like there was a reason that was clear to me. Anyways, Helena, Rain, Ryan, I don't know where we fell there, but went on to make a better movie immediately.

1:26:22 Exactly.

1:26:24 It's nice. It's like not every movie is going to be an instant classic as, to your point, Karama, I think the way that we talk about, or the way that culture talks about marginalized filmmakers is you have to be Ryan Coogler, no misses allowed. And for the majority of directors, that's not going to be the case. For most white male directors, that is certainly not the case.

1:26:47 So there's a leveling of the playing field here. This movie is fine it's fine it's it's two and a half nipples for me i'm gonna give uh i don't know i'm gonna give one to amanda stenberg i'm gonna give one to helena rhine's next film baby girl and i will give the last the half nipple to the sword the sword sword.

1:27:15 I really want to learn that party trick.

1:27:18 I think it's called sabering like it's like a whole thing I could be lying. We'll never know. Cause we are done.

1:27:27 There's no way to find out. There's no way.

1:27:29 Well, Karama, thank you so much for joining us for a fifth time.

1:27:33 Congratulations.

1:27:33 Come back for a sixth. Of course.

1:27:35 Yes. I'm going to go into another hand. It's reverse. Never have I ever.

1:27:40 Yes.

1:27:42 Tell us where people can follow your work, follow you on social media, et cetera.

1:27:47 People can follow me on social media, uh, Threads, Instagram, TikTok, at KaramaDrama. K-O-R-A-M-A-D-R-A-M-A.

1:27:56 Hell yeah.

1:27:56 Hell yeah.

1:27:57 You can follow us on Instagram at BechtelCast. You can subscribe to our Patreon, a.k.a.

1:28:02 Matreon.

1:28:03 That's the best way to support the show at Patreon.com slash BechtelCast. And also you can support the show by seeing us at upcoming live shows.

1:28:13 Yes.

1:28:14 We will be continuing our 10-year anniversary tour in different regions. We may have also already announced the next leg by the time this comes out. If not, stay tuned. Go to linktree.com for more information, for ticket links, etc.

1:28:32 And with that.

1:28:36 Should we all get together for a hurricane party?

1:28:39 No, we shouldn't.

1:28:41 Yes, I'll bring the games.

1:28:43 Yes, wait, what are the rules? Let's play a game.

1:28:47 I want to play a game. Bye. Bye. The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia. Hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus.

1:28:59 And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichterman.

1:29:04 And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them? That's me.

1:29:08 And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus.

1:29:14 Ever heard of her?

1:29:15 Oh, my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

1:29:20 With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

1:29:22 Iconic.

1:29:23 And a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

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