The Accused with Sarah Marshall

0:01 On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast.

0:16 Hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Caitlin Durante.

0:20 And my name is Jamie Loftus. And this is the podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion. But we are looking at movies through an intersectional feminist lens. We have an intense episode today, so I just want to mark it at the top of... Just some trigger warnings before we even get into the Bechdel test. We're talking about The Accused today. It's a movie from 1988 that at least, well, we'll talk about it. I don't think it's really talked about very much now.

0:57 And I find it interesting.

0:58 But it is a movie that directly covers the trial. and fallout and depiction of a very brutal rape. So if you are not in a place to be hearing about that today, please be advised. That's what we're getting into as well as I'm sure inevitably some talk about the Cornell case, which is sort of why we're choosing to cover this movie when we're choosing to cover it.

1:26 Yes.

1:26 So yeah, unpleasant. I don't know about you two, but I feel sick already.

1:32 Yeah. I do not feel good.

1:35 So if you are in a place to deal with topics like that and you can find it cathartic, maybe this is the episode for you. And yeah, hope you get something out of it.

1:45 Yes.

1:45 Anyways, let's get into, before we can get into the horrors of the world, Caitlin.

1:51 Yes.

1:52 What's the Bechdel test?

1:53 I forget.

1:54 I'll tell you. It's a mediometric created by a friend of the show, Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test.

2:01 Yes.

2:02 It is a media metric that has many different versions of it. The one that we use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender have names, they speak to each other, and their conversation is about something other than a man. And ideally, it's a conversation that is narratively meaningful and not just throwaway dialogue.

2:24 And thankfully, today's movie does pass it handily, so we will not be harping on the Bechdel test today. Imagine if it didn't. But, you know, when you see 1988 as the release date, you just never know. But, yes, we have an incredible returning guest. Her fifth appearance, which is the jacket tier of Bechdel cast guests. Where we tell you we're going to get you a jacket and then we don't.

2:50 And then we never do.

2:51 And then we don't. You are going to get me a jacket. I'm going to come to your house and find one I like.

2:56 Oh, sure.

2:57 Oh, yeah. You can also. I guess we didn't get specific about what the jacket was. I think we promised Kenise a specific jacket that never materialized. But you could just, yeah, come grab a jacket.

3:06 Yeah. Yeah. Go shopping in my closet.

3:08 You deserve it, girly. It's the amazing Sarah Marshall, a host of your.

3:13 Wrong about it.

3:14 Oh, hello.

3:14 Amongst myriad other wonderful people. She's an incredible writer. And the first person, I mean, I guess this is like, I don't know. Let me know how you feel about this distinction. When we decided to do this episode, you were the first person I thought of. I was like, I just, I want to talk to Sarah about this movie.

3:33 It like so overlaps with so much of what you talk about on You're Wrong About. And I also just love talking to you. I was like, we have to choose a guest who we feel safe with.

3:46 Yeah.

3:47 And that means so much to me. And I do, you know, I, I, yeah, I want to have that be my distinction here that we all feel all as comfortable as possible today here together, because certainly I have no expertise here except, except I guess from like the sort of The pattern of talking on my show about various women who had to defend their right to exist in the media and had the media descend on them in a huge way. Yes. And this is one of those stories, you know, in a story from the 80s and also one that as as you're saying, I think this case and this movie, you know, were tremendously visible before.

4:25 And the times that they happened and that we haven't returned to very much, which is interesting.

4:30 Right.

4:31 Yes.

4:32 I was not familiar with either this movie prior to us kind of deciding to cover it, nor the actual case that this movie is based on. Maybe if I was a little older and more alive in the 80s and not an infant when this was all happening, or I guess the case took place before I even existed. So maybe if the timeline was different, I would be more aware of it. But yeah, I was not familiar at all.

5:03 It's also interesting to me to compare this, the case that inspired this movie to also something like the William Kennedy Smith trial, which was a rape trial that people were absolutely riveted by at the time that it was happening. And it also raised questions of how much and whether to identify the victim. And, or, you know, if we want to be legalistic, I guess the alleged victim in a trial like this, that was getting so much media attention.

5:30 And again, that's like a story that people don't reminisce about and have kind of taken out of maybe the collective memory of a period in an interesting way. Cause you have something like the OJ Simpson trial and no one really ever really forgot about that one. Um, but stories like this, you know, seem to have, um, yeah, been maybe a little bit repressed and also, you know, Jodie Foster won an Oscar for this movie.

5:56 And that's, I know that that was like one of the many reasons that I was like, you know, even if it's not a movie we talk about very frequently, I feel like I'm at least, you know, most Oscar like winning movies like that. I am more aware of than I was aware of this movie. So I guess for listeners and for.

6:17 For Caitlin and Sarah. I'm like, there's so much we could talk about in this episode. I'm, I think, correctly assuming all of our listeners are aware of and to some extent, following the Cornell case. I don't think I want to get into that one specifically, but I think that the parallels are very clear. For sure. Between, I mean, I think that that's part of I don't know. Yeah, I guess I just wanted to do a vibe check at the top. Because I mean, I'm assuming I'm very much not alone here. I've been having a really horrible time recently with, I mean, but in a new way, I guess. And I'm curious if this like resonates where this is, unfortunately, the Cornell case is so familiar and so familiar that It is a story we have heard

7:14 massively publicized within the history of this podcast. I've been thinking so much recently about, obviously because we're about to go on our 10-year anniversary tour, and how this moment shares very grim similarities to the Me Too movement, but I mean, and we've talked at length at the shortcomings of that movement, which bear a lot of similarity to the shortcomings of most American feminist movements. But I think I did feel more hopeful and more energized at that time that that was going somewhere and that. the conversations that we would be having in 2026 would not feel even worse than the ones we were having in 2017.

8:05 And amongst other like personal stuff, campus rape in particular. But yeah, I don't know.

8:13 Yeah.

8:13 Yeah. Vibe checking. I know we're all doing bad, but I'm just this particular kind of like we've been here before.

8:21 Yeah.

8:22 So historically recently and I feel worse.

8:25 Can I tell you what it feels like to me? And I ironically, I am using a metaphor that involves a movie that had unsafe and traumatic working conditions for a woman. Mm hmm. The part in the Blair Witch Project where things have started to really get bad and they've been hiking for like 15 hours and they realize at the end of the day that they have come back to the same log over the same creek that they were at that morning. And it's just like the exhaustion and the fear and the feeling of having like taken away from you even the catharsis of having made one day's progress.

9:01 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

9:03 That's a very apt metaphor.

9:05 And you're like, I gave you back the map, Heather.

9:08 Yeah. Okay. Sarah's genius mode. We're 10 minutes in and Sarah's already gone genius mode.

9:18 But it is like, but I bet, but you know that I feel like I've been, I guess watch that movie again. Cause it's, you know, October and that's the, you have to watch the Blair witch project and, and, and, and this house and, and that, so that feeling of like, exhaustion is like I think yeah what to me what comes to mind right where it's like oh my god like was all of that so that we could end up back in the exact same place yeah I I.

9:46 Guess luckily and unluckily a way in to talk about most of the things I've been feeling about the Cornell case through the lens of the accused because so little has changed not just in the way that rape calls is so pervasive, but in the way that media presents rape culture, because we always have to have a man who is redeemable and we always have to, you know, I've felt so frustrated by, and I know that there is value to this and, and I am, you know, it's impossible to not bring your own shit to the table, but it's, how quickly we jumped to like, we need to talk about men. You know, it's like, no, I don't want, no. They're like, we need to figure out how, you know, it's again, once again on, I think what's

10:36 really been kind of like lighting me up recently is because this is like not the first wave of this discourse that has happened on social media also specifically. is that I'm seeing stories that I remember hearing and feeling, you know, like from, from peers, from, you know, public figures, from whomever, the stories I remember hearing 10 years ago, seeing again, repackaged and reposted. And it like, I don't know, something about that really broke me because I, it makes me feel so much for victims, survivors, whatever your chosen language is that like we're, Being asked to once again, like, open the trauma suitcase... and like doll it up in whatever way is most algorithmically friendly and be like, hey,

11:25 do you give a fuck this time? And the answer is always no. I mean, and then the other side of that is, you know, you find community, you find like, I mean, it's more complicated than that. But I don't know.

11:40 Well, I think watching, I mean, you know, not to get too into the plot, but I feel like the sort of one of the overwhelming feelings I had watching it was the sort of horror of, as we've been talking about, sort of being now where we were then, where we have been for much of recorded history, where if a man or in this case, a group of men rapes you and uses your body as a something that they're bonding over by dehumanizing you then you have to go prove to another group of men that it happened right that the legal system is basically just like another group of guys in a bigger building and how and how much that you know not not totally hasn't changed, but has sort of changed and then changed back multiple

12:34 times and how we keep coming back to this bedrock and we're, we're here now again.

12:41 Well, I guess unless there's other, we can just get into our history with the, with the movie. Had either of you seen it before?

12:49 Never saw it. Was not familiar with it.

12:51 Yeah.

12:52 Just watched it for the first time a couple of days ago.

12:55 I had seen bits of it on TV. Weirdly, my greatest familiarity with this movie was always the fact that it was the subject of a chapter of Carol Clover's book, Men, Women and Chainsaws, which was like the first scholarly book on slasher movies or one of the very first. And it was a chapter contrasting this with I Spit on Your Grave. Interesting.

13:17 Oh, we should cover that too. Yeah.

13:19 Which is also very hard to watch and has a remake that makes it, I think, less hard to watch, but also less Day of the Woman-ish. But anyway, but that's a whole other story. But no, I'd also never seen this whole movie. And also there is, you know, a very long, explicit rape scene in it and i had i think i i realized while watching it to come on today that i had been avoiding it because i because i knew about that part and i didn't want to watch it and um yeah i'm glad to have seen it and then get to talk to both of you about it.

13:59 Yeah thank you for being willing to have this conversation with us seriously jamie what about you had you were you familiar with it the movie.

14:06 I was aware of it, but I hadn't seen it. I think like, yeah, avoiding it kind of for similar reasons, but I was glad that we ended up deciding to do this episode, even though it feels so all over the place, but like, I I'm glad we ended up deciding to do it because I do feel like movies like this, you know, for better, for worse. And I think this movie is generally for better that like you get a, you, you can get a feel of like how far culture was willing to, deal with this topic and stories like this in a given historical moment. Um, yeah, I don't know. I, I was, I guess, pleasantly surprised at how thoughtful it was, even though there's obviously like a lot of 1988 in there, but I was more familiar with the, and we'll, we'll talk about this after

14:57 we talk about the movie. Um, but I was more familiar with the case that inspired this with a woman named Cheryl Arrujo, who, um, was not even alive when this movie came out, which we can talk about. Um, but because that happened like a decade before I was born, but it happened near where I grew up. And so, I don't recall, like it wasn't like a story I was intimately familiar with growing up, but I do, I recognize her name. I certainly recognized, um, we were talking about, and we will talk about, there is an episode on, I think a pretty good Netflix, um, docuseries from a couple of years ago called trial by media.

15:36 Yes.

15:37 That it was like so intimately familiar that I was like, Oh, I know some of the ladies in this movie. So I was familiar with the story and I'm interested to also talk about like what elements from that story they brought to this film and what they kind of left. Because there's just so many ways to come at this.

15:56 But anyways, I generally was I'm very glad that this movie exists and. it seems like it was tremendously difficult to get made and was made unshockingly because of there being women executives fighting for it, which is unfortunately something that we still, I'm like with this terrifying super merger happening, I'm like, I wonder if women will be allowed to make creative decisions anymore. We'll see.

16:21 Maybe they'll replace women with like a computer that analyzes women and then tells men what women will watch.

16:29 It's going to be awesome, dude.

16:34 It'll be called... What will it be named? Oh, my gosh.

16:38 What's the fake AI actress that whoever loser made up?

16:43 Tilly.

16:43 Tilly Norwood or something. Yeah.

16:46 Ugh.

16:47 Tilly tilly's gonna go work for management tilly but i imagine her is just like the crushinator from futurama huge.

16:54 Feminist win as tilly norwood is promoted to head of development at super paramount yeah exactly yeah paramount brothers brothers we're laughing but that is gonna be like a variety headline in the next eight months I don't think, there are so many variety headlines that have broken me, but I don't think that there's any, this is just, okay, this is an aside, but maybe we need to, but there's never been an industry trade headline that's made me laugh harder than UTA signs Parmesan cheese. What? Do you remember that? No.

17:31 How did this happen?

17:32 And not just because I got dropped by UTA not a year before, and then they signed Parmesan cheese.

17:38 What do they, what does that mean?

17:40 The brand, the brand.

17:41 And then the body of the story is we're so glad that the resources that we no longer had to spend on Jamie Loftus, we could use to acquire Parmesan cheese.

17:49 Yeah. If you look up UTA, I think it's UTA, UTA Parmesan cheese. They like represent the cheese. What about cheddar? Well, I don't know.

17:56 You'll have, they.

17:57 Won't talk to me. So you, you'll have.

17:59 To, you'll have to ask. But like calling me like UTA.

18:04 Hello.

18:04 I've got cheddar on the line.

18:06 I still don't.

18:06 He's not happy with his current management.

18:09 Well, the purpose, Caitlin, I think is to get Parmesan. Like, it's like product placement. Like, we're going to get Parmesan on HBO.

18:17 Oh, okay. Parmigiano-Reggiano? Yeah.

18:19 It's like a brand. The brand.

18:21 Like the official Parmesan.

18:22 It was like.

18:22 Okay.

18:23 Like... The generic idea, the concept of Parmesan cheese? No. Okay.

18:28 They can't do that yet.

18:29 But they're getting there.

18:30 But basically, that's kind of the brand.

18:33 Wow.

18:34 Anyways.

18:34 Right.

18:35 Well, shout out.

18:36 Call Parmesan cheese's agent if you want.

18:39 I don't know how I feel about Parmesan now.

18:41 Do you think Parmesan sold out? I think so. Yeah.

18:45 I think I'm going to go full Pecorino now. I want independent cheese. Independent cheese only.

18:52 Well, shall we take a quick break and then.

18:55 Yeah, I fear we may be wool gathering.

18:58 Yeah.

18:59 Yes, let's collect ourselves and come back after this break. And we're back.

19:14 We're back.

19:16 And here is the recap of the accused, once again, trigger slash content warning for rape. We open on an exterior shot of a bar called The Mill. After a while, a woman named Sarah, played by Jodie Foster, comes running out. She's screaming. She's clearly traumatized. She's clutching her clothes, which seem to be partly torn off We see a man also come out of the bar and call 911 from a payphone. saying that a woman was just raped by three or so men. inside of the bar. We cut to Sarah at the hospital. She's being questioned by the healthcare staff. Photographs are taken of her bruised and scratched body.

20:07 She has a pelvic exam. And then a few people show up, including a woman from a rape center, a detective, and a woman named Catherine, played by Kelly McGillis. She is the deputy district attorney who has been assigned to Sarah's case.

20:26 It's interesting to me, and we can talk about this more as we go on, but we're met with a series of women kind of in real time at the very beginning. But we, I think, I mean, one movie can only bite off so much, but I was interested, and especially more culturally, learning about the Sharla Ruggia case, how the Rape Crisis Center representative kind of falls into the background after that.

20:50 Almost immediately.

20:52 We meet her before Kelly McGillis, and then we don't really see her come back. And I guess fortunately, feminists and feminist organizers and rape crisis counselors were a lot bigger of an element in the Sharla Ruggia story. I feel like the accused doesn't really... have the bandwidth or chooses not to, we can talk about it. But yeah, I was surprised because we meet her, like we meet the examining nurse, we meet the rape crisis counselor, and then we meet the lawyer and then we just kind of stay with the lawyer.

21:25 I wonder if that is because the original draft of the script, and it's worth noting that this movie was written by a man named Tom Topor, and directed by a different man, Jonathan Kaplan.

21:38 Who do seem like lovely people, but yeah, this movie was fought for by two women executives. And it almost feels like that decision that we still see people make all the time, which is like, well, it has a better shot of getting made if we let men make it.

21:56 Sure.

21:56 Yeah.

21:57 So the original draft of the screenplay had it so that the district attorney character was basically the main character that the focus was on her.

22:05 Because it's going to be Jane Fonda.

22:07 Yeah.

22:08 Oh, right.

22:08 We're right. And that the survivor of the assault was going to be far less of a character. But then director Jonathan Kaplan kind of insisted that the Sarah character be basically as prominent of a character as the district attorney. So, but I'm wondering if like some.

22:28 That's still kind of leftover.

22:30 Yeah, right.

22:30 Like the absence of like, you know, the rape crisis center staff and things like that. I think it's probably because of that.

22:38 I agree.

22:40 Anyway, so Sarah is examined at the hospital. She meets the Catherine, district attorney character. That same night, Catherine and the detective take Sarah back to the mill, the bar, to see if the men who raped her are still there so that she can potentially ID them. Sarah reluctantly agrees to this, but she goes and she identifies two men who are still there. Catherine then drops Sarah off at home. She lives with her boyfriend, Larry, who seems like a piece of shit. He does not know how to be supportive of Sarah, and neither does her mom, who Sarah calls. So we get a sense that she does not have a very good support system.

23:26 Yeah, I like how that, I mean, we don't spend a ton of time with Sarah's support system or lack thereof but I like that the movie does go out of its way to not just make her one dimensional in that sense and that like she makes efforts to and like as with so many people especially the further back in time you go it's like even the people who might.

23:47 Care have no idea how to support her Right.

23:50 Yeah.

23:50 Yeah.

23:51 And she's just like this overwhelmingly alone character over and over again in the movie. And also I, I was surprised by how young Jodie Foster looks in this because it's just a few years before the silence of the lambs, but I feel like she's still got such a baby face on her. And she, she almost, she like reminds me of the way she was in like freaky Friday in this movie. She's still, yeah.

24:13 Cause she's, I guess she's, it was like 25 when this was shot.

24:17 Um, I, I really, she's so good.

24:21 She's so good.

24:22 Yeah.

24:23 As an actress and also for the world. Yeah.

24:26 Yes.

24:26 I agree. I just want to, I, I haven't, I always have an overwhelming urge to protect any Jodie Foster character.

24:33 Yeah.

24:33 Totally.

24:34 I just want to like, cause you know, those like TikToks that are like getting up at 4am to make lunch for my blue collar husband. I want to do that. But for Jodie Foster.

24:44 Yeah. I hope Jodie Foster, you know, I don't know. Jodie Foster, also queer icon. Like we just, we just love to see her.

24:52 I corresponded via email with her when I worked as an unpaid intern, basically being an assistant at a literary management company. They should have just hired an assistant. Yeah, this was in New York. This was many, many years ago. And they should have just hired an assistant and paid them, but instead they got unpaid interns to do that.

25:13 The golden age of the intern.

25:15 Yeah, that's true. You can't exploit them like that anymore.

25:20 But even though it was.

25:21 And in turn, I still had like the responsibilities that an assistant would have. And so I was instructed to email Jodi Foster. I don't remember specifically about what, but and she and our correspondence, as I recall, was lovely.

25:38 Oh, she really seems unmatched.

25:41 She's, she's so good.

25:42 And this, it was interesting reading about, and I guess, and for, uh, just to, because I know we, we talk about in movies like this, particularly when they are made by men at the top, like the first thought is almost like, God, I hope that Jodie Foster was, and Kelly McGillis were treated well and fairly. And from everything I can gather, it does seem like this was, I mean, like a very heavy, but safe, uh, And thoughtful production, particularly for its time. I'm sure that there would be more sort of systems in place today, as well as intimacy counselors and, you know, sort of choreographing things like scenes like we'll be talking about. But for anyone who did like, I just want people to feel

26:25 haunted by that question. It seems like, because there was an oral history about this movie published about 10 years ago in The Hollywood Reporter. And it seems like it was, you know, appropriately difficult, but not from a, like, anyone felt put upon or harassed, which is.

26:43 Glad to hear it.

26:44 Yeah.

26:44 Which is proof that that's possible, despite so many people in the industry claiming it's not.

26:49 There's no year where that needed to happen, because this was shot in, like, 1987. And everyone was, you know, okay, all things considered.

27:00 So, yeah.

27:01 Yeah. Yeah.

27:02 It's also, I will just point out on a lighter note that this is set in Washington. It was filmed in Vancouver, BC, but it has the look of the Pacific Northwest that feels so true and so familiar to me, which is just like not really raining, overcast sky, train tracks, light dusting of garbage.

27:22 Yeah.

27:24 So you felt the region was represented.

27:26 Yeah, I really felt so.

27:29 Yeah. Visibility matters.

27:33 Well, you can compare that with like, you know, Seattle is depicted in The Ring where it's just like pouring all the time.

27:40 Sure.

27:40 Which is good for your horror movie. Seattle isn't green. I think of The Ring as being a mostly green movie.

27:47 Yeah.

27:48 It's so gray and green.

27:50 Isn't the matrix also pretty green? It's like a step below the matrix.

27:54 Yeah.

27:54 Yeah.

27:54 There's a lot of like, what do they call that? I don't, it's not color correcting. It's color grading. Yeah. Um, they just put a green color grade over the entire movie of the matrix.

28:06 Yeah.

28:07 Um, Anyway, so the next day, Sarah and Catherine go to the college campus because one of the rapists is a college student. So they go to try to find him and Sarah identifies him. He's a member of a fraternity. And so he and the other two men that she ID'd earlier are arrested, but they are shortly thereafter released on bail. this case gets picked up by the press and we could also talk about the, the real life case that this movie is inspired by and the press of it all.

28:48 We'll get into it.

28:49 Yeah.

28:50 Cause I feel like the, the, the press is sort of another large topic that this movie includes, but doesn't like super, I wouldn't say it like focuses on it.

29:01 Totally. Right.

29:02 Yeah.

29:03 It's, it's more prevalent in the real life case. this case gets picked up by the press and there's a report about how the defense plans to claim that there was no rape, that Sarah enthusiastically consented to everything that happened. Um, the, the college guy rapists frat is watching this on TV. They're cheering for him. Although there was another guy there glaring at this character, whose name is Bob. Um, We recognize the guy who is glaring as the guy who called 911 at the beginning.

29:40 Of the movie.

29:41 So we're like, hmm, okay, let's see how this pans out. Then District Attorney Catherine pays a visit to Sarah She asks several victim blamey questions. I want to talk a lot more about this scene, but the questions infuriate Sarah. Catherine's basically like, I'm just prepping you for the questions you are going to be asked on the stand by the defense, because they're going to try to show the jury that you have a rotten character. Because, for example, Sarah drinks alcohol and smokes weed and she has a criminal record because she was arrested for possession of a drug that wasn't actually hers, but she still has a record.

30:26 But yeah, basically the defense is going to try to invalidate everything she says. Right. Then Catherine goes to question Sarah's friend Sally who was there at the bar with her that night. Sally also works at the bar but she didn't see the rape because men were blocking her view. She says she didn't know what was going on and that she left but Sally fully believes Sarah. She also says that She can't really remember any of the patrons who were there that night, except for a guy with a scorpion tattoo. And so we'll put a pin in that, but because Sally didn't really witness anything, neither did the bartender because Sarah was drunk and high that night and has a criminal record and various other factors. Catherine does

31:20 not feel confident that the jury would rule in Sarah's favor. Because of that, I think other DAs encourage Catherine to do a plea deal so that the case doesn't go to trial.

31:35 It also is interesting, though, that at the beginning, I think that, again, I don't know about this specifically, but this movie is so effective at getting you, reminding you about how many systems need to actively fail someone who has been raped in order for something this horrific to happen. for it to happen this horrifically because with the Kelly McGillis character, there's at one point a man who will become very much her like op in terms of like getting this case done actually suggests at the beginning that she's like, she's not going hard enough when they're at that hockey game. And I thought that that was such an interesting detail to add that it's like the way that rape is viewed in this profession at this time

32:22 is so clinical where he's trying to think, well, what's the most you can get? What's like, what's the win you can get? Like you're thinking too small. And he's like, so he's both sort of, he's advocating for Sarah, but totally incidentally. Right. Like he's just like for the right reasons.

32:39 Exactly.

32:40 Yeah.

32:41 And it's, it's, it is interesting. I do think that there's like, even though I think that Kelly McGillis character is like, overemphasized in the story over sarah i do think that it is like interesting to see that character's journey from like being uh forced to see her clients as people which unfortunately um you know plenty of plenty of lawyers do need that um so anyways.

33:06 Jamie, what do you think of the role hockey plays in all this?

33:12 Did we even see a Zamboni on screen?

33:15 No. Come on. And so in that way, it doesn't pass the Loftus test at all. I do actually have, unfortunately, it's a bummer one, but I have a pitch for a new test.

33:27 Do you want to share that now? Yes.

33:31 I'll, I'll posit it now. I don't know if this is going to, you know, like many, we'll see if it sticks. I think we'll talk about it. I have very complicated feelings about the creative decision to show the rape scene. I think I understand why it was done. I don't think that it is a valueless decision. Wouldn't have been my choice, right? Right. My test is, I'm pitching.

33:55 Okay.

33:55 I wrote this at two in the morning last night. The doubt 2008 test is what I'm calling it. Okay. A movie whose central question at the time of release seemed to be, will you believe that this clearly traumatized person you've been conditioned by the media not to believe is telling the truth? So, so that's, that's the test is like this question of, because it reminds me of doubt in that we're asked, I think, especially with 1988 goggles, do you believe her? to the point where I think the movie feels it. My theory is the movie feels it necessary to go out of its way to tell you she wasn't lying. She was telling the truth here.

34:35 will show you versus you know a modern lens i think of like a movie like sorry baby where there is an assault but you don't see it and you don't need to see it to believe the protagonist right the reason i say doubt is because doubt is a movie in which a sexual assault this time of a child by a priest is the central question of the movie but there is thankfully nothing shown But it means that a lot of people in 2008 took the wrong questions away from that movie, which is, I wonder, do you think that happened?

35:09 Did it happen?

35:09 Right. Which was like literally what, I mean, as we talked about in our Doubt episode 5,000 years ago, that was my takeaway from that movie. It's like, I don't know. It's really about the question. Right. And it's like, no, as watching it as an adult, it's it's clear that this did happen. But like a movie's compulsion to show you, look, they're not lying because you've been so culturally conditioned to not believe them. I don't really know what the test is, but that's I'm thinking around movies with those kinds of themes.

35:38 And I suspect that the reason the accused does show this scene is because. A combination of factors, including how horrific rape is. But I think there is also, especially we'll talk about the production and like how this movie tested, how people reacted to it, how people reacted to the Cheryl Roja case. I can totally understand why production at this time. would feel like we have to show the audience definitively that she's telling the truth because there was so much dubiousness around believing anyone, which, yeah, so I don't know.

36:17 I mean, yeah, we can talk further about the merits of showing the rape scene on screen, which, spoiler alert, eventually does happen toward the end of the movie. I think there is value in it for certain reasons. I think there's also, again, I also would have not chose to show it or show it in the way that it's depicted on screen in the movie. But I do think it's because the film wanted to, like if anyone in the audience had such doubt.

36:47 Literally such doubt 2008. Exactly. Exactly.

36:51 Regarding whether or not Sarah was telling the truth about what happened to her. the movie is saying, no, this absolutely did happen.

36:59 Do not have such doubt.

37:00 Do not have such doubt versus a movie because there are, there are movies such as Anatomy of a Fall where you do walk away from that movie.

37:10 Yes.

37:10 Maybe having such doubt, but that's okay because.

37:13 It's just a different approach.

37:16 It's a, yeah, right.

37:17 And it's a different set of questions.

37:19 For sure.

37:19 And it's, And the context for that is, I mean, because rape culture is so pervasive and rape culture dictates that anyone who comes forward about having been raped, the reaction is usually do not believe this person. They are lying. Usually this woman is lying.

37:38 Like at best, they're equally on trial to the rapists.

37:42 Right. Because that's so pervasive. I think there is a lot of value in the movie confirming that. that this did indeed happen. Now, again, did it handle it the best way? We will talk about it, but.

38:05 Felt necessary in 1988.

38:07 Right.

38:07 Yeah.

38:09 And also kind of who is that, who is that depiction aimed at?

38:14 Yes.

38:15 Yeah.

38:15 Cause there's, I mean, there's all of these, okay, we're, we're skipping ahead, but like the, the, the talk about in, in that oral history, Jodie Foster was reflecting on shooting that scene. And she was like, honestly, it was very upsetting. I, you know, she was like, not from it, but she was like, it's, it's a traumatic position to be in as an actor or, And so I don't really remember.

38:37 But what she vividly remembered was how upset the men were getting. And the men were leaving the room and throwing up. Throwing up.

38:45 Yeah, I read that.

38:46 You know, screaming, crying, throwing up. And fair enough. It's horrific. But I do wonder, I mean, and again, and this isn't necessarily a criticism. And it gets into a lot of what we're talking about right now. Because in order for rape culture to be dismantled, men cannot be in favor of it as a block. Like they do need to be forced to sit with these things and understand.

39:09 I take issue with that coming before the safety of, you know, victims and survivors. Right. But it's, it's very complicated, but I, I, I was, I was struck by like how, you know, it sounds like Jodie Foster was like, yeah, it sucked. And it was, you know, it, it was difficult as an actor, but like the men were way more of And I was like, that's so interesting. There could be a million answers. It depends on the person, but yeah.

39:36 Yes.

39:37 I mean, and yeah. And of course there are, So many reasons for that. But it does make me think of, you know, part of this whole problem and conversation of men defaulting to disbelieving women's rape claims to the extent that they have historically. It feels like part of that has always been the idea of, well, how could you undergo this trauma and then, you know, act in this way later on or make a joke about it or sort of continue on with your day? And it's like, well...

40:08 know women just kind of do that we just sort of continue on with our day or there's the alternative which is that you're being too histrionic and are therefore acting you know and we're and then of course you know and ultimately that's all about the idea that you are not the one to decide the reality of what happened to you or that you're that whatever, however you behave or whatever you say, it's being judged and the validity of your complaint cannot be taken for granted.

40:37 But we simply cannot win.

40:39 Yeah. There's just like, there's no right way to be.

40:44 Jodie Foster also worked on a movie where she co-starred with an actual lion and when she was a child and had like close calls with it and just had to go right back into it. So, you know, I mean, Jodie Foster is, I, God, I'm so like, what, what a life. Cause it's also like, this was her, this, this role won her, her first Oscar, but it wasn't her first nomination. Um, Because she got nominated as a child for playing a child sex worker. Oh, right, in Taxi Driver.

41:14 In Taxi Driver, which we somehow, I mean, I understand how, but maybe it's unfortunately almost time to cover Taxi Driver.

41:22 I can't, I can't.

41:23 It's kind of like, that's one of those ones that we're like, well.

41:26 we have to, I guess.

41:27 Unfortunately, it does feel, does tend to come up.

41:31 Um, I mean, and then there was the whole, I did it for Jodi thing, which I don't know enough about, but I mean.

41:37 Way too much about it.

41:39 There's an episode of you're wrong about, about that one. It's called the insanity defense. Um, yeah, that was stressful. She was trying, she was at Yale at the time, you know, she, it was very Buffy. She's just trying to get through midterms or whatever.

41:54 Um, That was prior to this movie, right? That all happened in the early 80s, right?

42:00 Like 1981, because Reagan had just become president.

42:03 I just, jeez.

42:04 I love Jodie Foster. Also, connecting to this movie, that was kind of how Nancy Reagan got so into astrology. Because she liked it kind of a normal amount before, but after Hinckley shot Reagan. No, after Hinckley shot Reagan, she was like, I really need to know astrologically how to keep my husband from being shot again. That's my analysis. Wow. Well, okay.

42:27 It all comes back to astrology, as we will see. All roads lead to astrology.

42:33 It does.

42:34 I mean, I applaud her. I'm like, I'm also looking for answers in the stars now. I know this episode is all over the place, but I thought it was interesting that Jodie Foster was not the first choice for this part, which I guess I'm just assuming she's the first choice for everyone because she's awesome. But she was not the first choice for this part. And in fact, many actresses turned this part down due to... And it says because it was a controversial theme, but I think we can also make space and grace for Not every actor is going to want to put themselves in the position of being raped on screen. So this isn't a judgment of these actors. But the other actors who were considered before Jodie Foster were Kim Basinger, Demi Moore, Jennifer Beals,

43:20 Meg Tilly, and Rosanna Arquette. So there were a lot of, I mean, I think that, again, that just speaks to what a charged topic this was. Always is, but specifically is. in the 80s that so many high-profile actors were like, no, not doing it.

43:34 Well, including Kelly McGillis, who was cast to play the district attorney, but she was initially offered to play the role of Sarah.

43:43 But declined.

43:44 But the reason was that she had been a victim of rape and didn't want to play. Right, exactly. Yeah, which I knew very... This is... I'm just not very familiar with Kelly McGillis. She gives a great performance in this, but I'm like, I guess I've seen Top Gun.

43:59 Right.

44:00 I guess I've seen Top Gun.

44:01 Her range was limited by the needs of Top Gun.

44:05 But I think she's terrific in this movie. And yeah, we'll talk about it. But yeah, like you're saying, Caitlin, she was in consideration but chose to play the lawyer because she felt kind of just weird about playing a character who had gone through something so similar to something she'd been through. very recently at the time this movie came out and we'll get more into it. Cause it also was like, I think very, it must've been incredibly difficult for her to, you know, discuss on this press tour, which is like how people found out.

44:37 Right.

44:38 Yeah.

44:38 Yeah.

44:39 Well, back to the movie, I suppose. Um, So Catherine is not confident that she will be able to win this case for Sarah. So she meets with the attorneys who are defending the rapists. They are trying to negotiate what specific crime the men will be charged for. Catherine is pushing for the most severe charge, which would be rape one, like first degree rape. The defense is trying to minimize it and advocate for like sexual abuse too.

45:12 They're having this very creepy. I know it's real, but it's very, I, again, like you're forced to watch a lot of really nasty shit in this with, with purpose, but like, yeah, they're, they're like debating over, like they're like, they're negotiating a contract, uh, I can give you a rape too. I can give you a little, it's yeah.

45:32 There's a moment in that scene when the attorney who is defending the college frat boy, he says, and I quote, he's a kid of 22. He's an a student. He's got a bright future. And where have we heard that before?

45:51 Yay. I love this one. Um, Yeah, they're playing the hits here. But I mean, and these are the hits that are literally being played, right? I mean, I'm certain we are going to see these exact hits played. You're sent back to the Brock Turner case. You're sent back to any number of high profile rape cases where it's like, consider the boys, consider the boys.

46:12 The boys and their bright futures.

46:14 And as we're going to get into in just a moment, another thing that I mean, an aspect of the Cornell case that is being.

46:25 at least.

46:26 More discussed from what I've noticed on social media and just among the plebs of this world, on this round of discourse that I wasn't seeing as much discussion about 10 years ago, is something that this movie deals with directly, which is bystanders. And what do we do with bystanders? Because bystanders are... whatever to me more more rape culture syndrome than the rapists themselves.

46:53 They're the enablers of rape culture.

46:57 Right and that is something that I think is very rightfully being talked about a lot in the context of the Cornell case even though I think sometimes there's like this misguided like we have to we have to think about how we can help men not do this and it's like oh my god can we please kick it to them can they can they Can we not make this women's responsibility for the first time ever?

47:23 I think if they stopped getting away with doing it, they would, they would perhaps, we should try that.

47:29 You know, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just being hashtag trigger. I mean, we all are, but I'm just, anytime we jump directly to like consider the men, it's like, what, what moment of my life am I not considering the men? Oh my God.

47:44 We've been doing that and it hasn't worked.

47:48 No.

47:49 Anyway, Catherine and the defense attorneys are negotiating.

47:55 I like the idea of offense attorneys. They're really aggressive.

48:01 They're very offensive.

48:02 Absolutely.

48:03 Yes.

48:04 They eventually come to an agreement with the charge being reckless endangerment rather than rape. Catherine agrees to this because it carries the same like prison sentence as rape, that being five years, although these rapists will likely only serve about nine months in prison. So they come to this plea deal. This makes Sarah furious. And she confronts Catherine being like, what the fuck is this? Why aren't we going to trial? Why isn't the charge first degree rape?

48:41 Well, it's like, why didn't anyone ask me to testify?

48:45 And she says, oh, just because I'm poor and not as educated as you, this means I would be a bad witness on the stand. Fuck you. You sell out. And so class becomes a part of the conversation. I'm interested to talk more about that. Sarah gives this great monologue and then she storms out. Cut to Sarah giving herself a short haircut. So we've got some baldest woman in charge vibes.

49:13 I think it definitely bears out because the next thing she does is hit a hit a bystander with her car, as is her right.

49:20 Yeah, that haircut did work.

49:21 But first she breaks up with her shitty boyfriend, Larry, saying to get the hell out and don't come back.

49:28 And he takes everything but her James Dean poster.

49:30 And again, another I'm very glad it's referenced later that Larry is is in court and testifies maybe, but we don't see it. I don't think we have to. I'm glad that that was done away with. But again, just like another detail that I really appreciated was that her boyfriend, while not himself, as far as we know, sexually abusive towards her, does this thing that felt very familiar and it's just like done. And then she breaks up with him shortly after, but that like, He is frustrated by her trauma limiting her his sexual access to her. So while he is like and this happens in kind of movie time where he does this and she immediately breaks up with him. But that, I think, is a familiar feeling to a lot of survivors. It's like someone who

50:23 is like, I'm here for you, babe. But then when you're having difficulty even considering sexual contact with anyone, you're met with frustration or resentment or whatever it is. And you can feel that dynamic happening there. I just thought it was a thoughtful detail.

50:40 Yeah, totally. He says something like... You're going to have to get over this soon. This is getting so boring. Right. And then she's like, get the fuck out and never come back. You piece of shit.

50:51 This is also the reveal that it's like he I'm like, does he even pay rent? Like, you know, she's like, this is my house. I was like, oh, yeah, get the fuck out of here. Yeah. Oh, my God.

51:00 So after she kicks him out, she carries on with her life. And one day at a record store, this is what you were just talking about, Jamie, a man relentlessly hits on her. She keeps saying no. He gets more and more aggressive. And then he says, I recognize you from the mill that night. And he's taunting her.

51:22 She's trying to leave in her car, but he's blocking the exit. So she rams into his vehicle with her car. He and Sarah are both admitted to the hospital. Catherine shows up for Sarah and sees the scorpion tattoo on this guy's arm. Hmm, didn't Sally say something about a scorpion tattoo? Then Catherine goes to Sarah and Sarah is like, this happened because you didn't let the case go to trial and let me speak for myself. So now everyone thinks I'm a piece of shit. So this is your fault, Catherine.

51:58 And Catherine is like, damn, she's right. So she goes after the scorpion tattoo guy who tells Catherine that Sarah is a crazy whore who put on a sex show for an audience. And she loved every second of it.

52:15 Right.

52:15 And this is where things start to, I mean, well, they've already sort of separated from the case that inspired it. But I thought it was interesting that they, they pace it out in this movie and, Because my understanding of the Arujo case is that bystanders were always a part of the conversation and that these, these, these were separate trials, but it wasn't, I thought it was an interesting writing choice that they had Kelly McGillis's character go after the bystanders because she had taken it too easy on the rapists themselves. Cause that's how it's presented.

52:47 Yeah, for sure.

52:48 And this is like a thing that happens a lot in law and order where like, you as an audience will watch the prosecutors kind of not be able to satisfyingly prosecute the person who's morally responsible for something. So then they kind of go after somebody else and it's very, and it like satisfies.

53:07 You as a viewer.

53:08 Um, but it's, it's weird legally and also gets consistently for them to sort of, you know, for it to then maybe feel as if we're using the second trial as a way to make the first deal legal. seem like palatable, less inadequate.

53:23 Right. Yeah.

53:25 Right. I mean, it is sort of like Kelly McGillis, like to some extent her like journey to recognize that, um, you know, like, well, it's a combination of things, right? Cause it's like, she, she believed, like she always does. But I guess it's like a question of her character at the beginning of believes Sarah, but she doesn't necessarily believe that it matters. Right. Which is like two separate things.

53:51 That it's worth going to trial for.

53:54 Or like worth risking anything professionally or personally. So it's, which I think is so telling. And I think is very true of, of many women of that time. And still now that like when you, when someone is in, I'm thinking right now of, I mean, like, whatever we're talking about this at the tour as well but um you know megan kelly right yeah who very publicly and like rightfully called out roger ailes for sexually harassing her this was around the time of me too i believe this happened in 2016 so the year before they made a movie about it whatever And who is now during the Cornell case has totally stepped back from that stance as being an advocate for women. And basically, you know, went on her fuck ass show and was like, consider

54:49 the boys. It's what she was wearing. Like, was she like the playbook that we've been hearing from before the accused came out.

54:57 Right.

54:58 From time immemorial of blaming the victim, which is fascinating when it's like, you know, I do think there's value in showing that other women will, and, and not to say that only women are victims of rape disproportionately, you guys all know what I mean.

55:13 Right.

55:14 Yeah.

55:14 But, but that other women will, you know, not be willing to personally risk anything for a woman who is suffering to protect their own interests and peace. Yeah.

55:29 And I think the kind of the way that generational trauma is, exacts itself where women will kind of look at, at other women or younger generations, um, you know, reporting or wanting to have taken seriously sexual trauma or assaults that they've suffered. And the sort of the feeling if you have lived through that and not received any kind of attention or care for it, you know, the feeling of resentment that we can see that engendering, not fairly or rightly, but like that, that's definitely a trend that keeps emerging.

56:01 Yeah, totally. For sure.

56:02 This is not the same thing, but it's like when people are like, well, I had to pay back my student loans. So everyone should.

56:10 No, it totally is.

56:12 On a different scale.

56:13 But yeah.

56:13 Yeah.

56:16 I think it is morally correct for things to not be better for my children. And it's like, what?

56:24 I suffered, so everyone should have to suffer. So the scorpion tattoo guy says this horrible thing about Sarah and the events of that night, which prompts Catherine to go back and listen to the 911 call that the guy made anonymously at the very beginning. in which he says there's a whole crowd watching. So, as we were just talking about, basically in order to redeem the situation, and also perhaps like Catherine redeeming herself because she fucked up by taking the plea deal, she now wants to go after the group of patrons at the bar who she believes solicited and encouraged. the rape so that she can charge them with criminal solicitation her male colleagues at the da's office do not like this and i don't know

57:22 if they fire her or threaten to fire her but they're being babies about it and they're being really shitty about it.

57:29 It was unclear because it does seem like she stays at the office question mark i don't understand how lawyers work so i was like maybe she still works there maybe she doesn't either way yeah they're at.

57:39 Odds indeed Catherine goes back to Sarah to admit her mistake and say that there's still a chance for Sarah to go to trial and take the stand and tell her story if they prosecute the complicit men who.

57:56 Encouraged the rape.

57:58 Sarah agrees to this, especially because if they win this case, the rape will go on record, which it wasn't before because of the plea deal. And the rapists will stay in jail for the full five years of their sentence rather than be released after a few months. So Catherine goes back to Sarah's friend Sally to see if she can look at a lineup and identify any of the men who egged on the rape, which she does for three men. Then Catherine asks Sally a series of questions.

58:35 Sally kind of lets it slip on the record that on the night of the rape earlier in the evening, Sarah had said that she thought the frat boy was cute and wouldn't mind sleeping with him. Sally acknowledges that Sarah was joking when she said this, but Catherine thinks that this does not make Sarah look good. And she feels she can't use Sally as a witness for the prosecution anymore. And so everyone is discouraged and they're like, oh God, what do we do? Then Catherine goes to the mill to look around. She sees the video game that the bartender mentioned one of the men who was there that night, like playing the video game.

59:23 This movie does not make pinball games look good.

59:28 And I do love, just like in any movie, a gumshoe reporting sequence.

59:35 I don't know how to feel about this. It's kind of silly. She goes to the top scoreboard on this video game.

59:44 Thank God he was good at it.

59:46 Thank God he was.

59:47 Good at it, that he used his first name.

59:50 That his first name is three letters.

59:53 Deus ex pinball machine how do we get this plot information across so basically.

59:58 This this guy who is the one who makes the anonymous 911 call he had been playing this game he scored well on it entered his name on the scoreboard which also says the date which is april 19th.

1:00:12 Which i don't think it normally does i don't know.

1:00:15 I don't know either but this is the evidence pinball machine Yes.

1:00:19 But the best part is that his name, it pans over dramatically, and his name is Ken.

1:00:26 Ken.

1:00:26 Which could be anyone named Ken.

1:00:29 But for some reason... But no, it isn't. Okay, I thought I was missing something.

1:00:34 I'm like, how does she know... I'm like, Ken, why not choose a more anachronistic name?

1:00:40 Sure. So this prompts Catherine to look at the fraternity yearbook.

1:00:47 I love that she has that. I mean, I'm sure she could get it, but it's just a funny thing to suddenly appear in her home.

1:00:54 I'm like, was that in the library?

1:00:56 I don't... I don't know.

1:00:58 I wasn't mad about it. Yeah, I was like, of all the things to be like silly and summary, I'm like, whatever. We get to Ken.

1:01:05 Yeah. We know where we're going. We need to get there. But yeah, I just love that she just has it all of a sudden.

1:01:12 She has the like, I don't know. I don't remember the name of the fraternity.

1:01:15 She's doing the lawyer movie thing where you decide to win the unwinnable case and then it just and things just start working out for you.

1:01:22 Yeah, exactly.

1:01:23 Yeah.

1:01:24 So she looks through this fraternity yearbook and finds Kenneth Joyce.

1:01:30 And thank God there's only one Ken. There's only one Ken, yeah. But nope, there's just the one, just one Ken. And she's like, hey.

1:01:37 In 1988? Oh, my God.

1:01:39 Right?

1:01:40 And then she shows up on campus and she's like, I know that you are the Ken and you are going to talk to me about it right now.

1:01:47 And he's like.

1:01:47 Sitting on this bench.

1:01:48 And he's like, you got me. I am the only Ken in the state of Washington.

1:01:52 I am Ken.

1:01:53 Oh, shucks.

1:01:54 This is probably not that funny. But inside of this conversation, it's very funny. I just need to laugh about Ken.

1:02:00 It's very, yeah. Plot.

1:02:02 The movie's going to get plotty somewhere and I don't find it offensive that they yada yada.

1:02:10 This because we just got to get to Ken. We got to get to Ken.

1:02:13 And we do.

1:02:15 His job is video game initials enterer.

1:02:21 Ken's an interesting character. I'm interested to talk about.

1:02:24 The function of Ken.

1:02:26 Because he keeps kind of going back and forth of like I'm going to testify. Wait, no, I'm not.

1:02:31 Yes, I am.

1:02:32 No, I'm not involved. I don't remember anything. You know, so we don't know what he's going to end up doing. We cut to the day of the trial for the criminal solicitation case. Sarah takes the stand and tells her story, recounting the events of the night of April 18th.

1:02:48 Jodie Foster comes to win an Oscar on this day.

1:02:51 Oh, yes. Yes. she's cross-examined by the defense who tried to say that it's not possible for her to know exactly who encouraged the assault. And she's like, I mean, yeah, I guess you're not wrong.

1:03:04 Because she was too busy being violently raped. Right. This one is, it also feels so horrifyingly real where they're like, well, if you were so distracted by being horrifyingly raped, then how could you possibly have seen it well enough to describe it? It's like, You're right. The fact that this terrible thing happened to me is proof that it doesn't matter what I know happened to me. Good job.

1:03:29 Right.

1:03:30 It's right.

1:03:31 It's so like I mean, and then if you look at the Arrujo case, it's like so it's not like exactly one to one, but it's so close. Like just of how we still talk about rape and how, you know, it's like Sarah is is on trial for sure.

1:03:49 We treat UFO sightings with more credulousness, I guess. You know, like when someone is on the news saying they saw a UFO, people ask much easier questions.

1:04:03 Yeah, totally.

1:04:04 Yes. So things are a little shaky during the trial and pretty much everything comes down to Ken's testimony.

1:04:12 Hmm.

1:04:13 Before he testifies, he visits his rapist friend who is in prison.

1:04:18 Who's like, hey, buddy.

1:04:21 Hey.

1:04:22 He tries to coerce Ken into saying that he was drunk and doesn't remember anything from that night. Because this rapist knows that if Ken testifies that he witnessed the rape, this frat guy will get the full five-year sentence and it will be on his record. Yeah.

1:04:40 And five years is a really, really long time to go to prison.

1:04:44 Especially for a man with such a bright future.

1:04:48 Yeah.

1:04:50 Fuck off.

1:04:52 Like, truly, truly.

1:04:55 So then Ken goes back to Catherine and Sarah and says that if he is made to testify, he will recant his whole statement. So Sarah is like, what the fuck? Ken takes the stand. We don't know if he is going to like chicken out and recant his statement. But it turns out that he tells the whole story, which we see as a flashback. And again, like extra trigger warning here. But the brutal rape is depicted on screen.

1:05:27 It goes on for a while.

1:05:30 And we see, I think, crucially, we see the entire story. Yeah. And I'm not saying this pro or con, but we see it from the moment she enters the bar, which is sort of part of why I'm like, I do think that like, and not even in a bad way, but I do think that men or, or I guess more generally people inclined to disbelieve rape victims see every single thing that is talked about and put on trial.

1:05:59 We see the whole thing. sequence, including the moments that are characterized as Sarah's quote-unquote mistakes, right? Her saying, oh, he's kind of cute. Like, maybe I should hook up with him to make my shitty boyfriend jealous. And in the moment, you see it is so clearly a cast-off thing. It is not this diabolical thing it's made out to be.

1:06:25 I don't know.

1:06:26 It is such a... And something that I... Found, I guess, about this sequence, if it has to be there, and that's the way the movie is, so I guess it has to be there. Something I found tricky about this, and I guess gets into, I know we'll have a longer discussion about intent and everything, of what is the purpose of this sequence. We're constantly switching perspectives in this scene.

1:06:55 We don't stay on any one character's perspective, which I found... To be, I don't know, a choice I just want to talk about with both of you because it's not like you necessarily, I mean, whatever. No one wants to be locked in on Sarah's perspective here. She is experiencing something truly horrifying. But we are frequently switching to us.

1:07:17 witnesses perspectives we are occasionally directly in sarah's pov we're also in the pov of ken we're also the pov of sally we're also in the pov of the bartender we're really jumping around this scene and i think it's to just show who's telling the truth and who is maybe not told the entire truth But I found it, I guess just like even as a viewer, I found it quite jarring that the scene cannot seem to exactly choose or favor a perspective. Because I wouldn't even, I think that if I had to pick a character whose perspective is favored, it would probably be Ken. But even so, it's like the camera's really jumping all over the place in a way that I was like, okay, I feel like this scene is really telling us who this movie

1:08:08 is for. And it seems like everyone is supposed to maybe see themselves in someone's perspective in this scene.

1:08:16 I don't know. I actually kind of appreciated the objectivity of the point of view. Because in theory, we should only be seeing things from Ken's perspective because this is who is recounting these events in this moment.

1:08:33 Sure.

1:08:33 But the movie chooses to give us a more objective point of view or to like jump around to different people's points of view, which I think implies, again, this is what happened.

1:08:46 Yeah.

1:08:46 Objectively, because different people are going to different people who experience the same thing are still going to describe events differently based on their perspective, their lived experience. certain bits of context, whatever. But this objective... depiction of this event i think actually serves the story well i don't know maybe i'm wrong but.

1:09:13 No you're not wrong i'm like i it was just something i was i was curious what you both thought about i think i i struggled with it a little bit but i also am like having a hard time articulating why so that that is helpful to hear.

1:09:27 I feel like it watching it or talking about it even more now it makes me think about shaming to what you're saying how how much of that sequence is sort of answering the assumptions that I think the movie is assuming audience members have maybe made at that point. And that if it is a movie where characters are raising these questions, which, you know, are very familiar from real life about, and you know, this like fundamental, also non-question at the heart of all this, which is, you know, well, was she so drunk and flirty that it can't have been rape? And it's like, well, there's no Degree of drunkenness or flirtiness or any other behavior that makes something into not rape, you know, but but this question that

1:10:11 seems so relevant to people at the time in which people and, you know, still does, unfortunately, in which people give so much power to. And I think that what to me, what this the sequence does that I feel grateful for. To see in a movie is that it shows her like being flirty and showing interest in this guy and dancing and being sexy. And yet when it comes to the actual rape scene, you're also then forced to watch something that is so brutal and so horrifying and goes on for so long that I think, you know, the gamble that the movie is taking is that anyone who's watching it, even who's been unsympathetic. Sarah and who has the kind of assumptions that it would be fair to assume that a lot of viewers would have at

1:10:55 this time, that if she dances or if she's flirty or drunk, then it then doesn't matter what happens to her. It feels like the movie is forcing you as, as the viewer to recognize that that assumption is horrible and insane. Um, yeah, I'm sure there are some people that that didn't work on, but you know, it's, it's, I'm, I don't know. I'm grateful for, that's my read of it. Um, and I, I appreciated that.

1:11:19 Because we see the evolution of things being consensual for Sarah consenting to things. She is dancing sexily of her own volition she is then dancing with the guy it seems as though she is consenting to that they start kissing it seems as though she is consenting to that but then there's a very clear turn where she very very clearly says stop no i have to leave.

1:11:47 And that's when the bystanders get kind of activated to get involved because they're more passive before the rape I also, I hope I'm remembering it correctly because it was not a scene that I was like, let me watch it a second time. I don't think that there's an overemphasis on music. When that shift happens, you're kind of just watching, which I, again, I think that that is a very smart filmmaking choice where you can't really argue. And I guess going back to your point, Caitlin, of like the value of moving around perspectives and this like trying to make the scene as objective as is possible, that like There's not a lot of filmmaking tools that could be argued as trying to tell you how to feel. You're

1:12:34 being shown something and you're not being told how to feel. And that cuts both ways, right? Because it's like if you're playing tragic music as this rape is taking place, That's telling you to feel one way. Or if the camera is behaving differently and her body is being objectified in any way, which I didn't think it was, that's, you know, how that cuts the other way. I guess, yeah, this is very helpful to talk about with both of you.

1:13:03 That so much of what I see value in with this story specifically, and it connects to Cheryl Arujo, even though it's like this story is best separated from her because it's not her story. But just the idea of an imperfect victim. Which is something that we still culturally struggle with so much. That we are sort of conditioned to only... empathize in an uncomplicated way with people who have been assaulted and at no point like there was no line of consent that was like began as consent and then crossed over into it there was no alcohol like i think that it is like important to be confronted with these i mean because this is how a lot of rape takes place and how a lot of rape is excused. And so having, having her at the

1:13:58 center and, and seeing it and also just it being so clear that this, that there's no world where this is right.

1:14:08 Yeah.

1:14:08 And I guess that there, that I think a lot of the complexity that people claim to exist in the issue, I think, because to me seems to dissolve once you can hopefully get, people to understand that you know rape is not anything that anyone has ever asked for at any point right this idea that to be sexually available is to ask for rape you know and this idea that men can't tell the difference um.

1:14:36 And and shouldn't be expected to right yeah it's um.

1:14:43 Anyway moving moving on.

1:14:45 Unfortunately still so prevalent so we see this flashback Then we cut back to the courtroom. The defense and prosecution give their closing arguments. Sarah and Catherine await the verdict. And finally, the jury finds the three defendants guilty of criminal solicitation. And that's basically how the movie ends.

1:15:11 And then a wonderful, scary TV movie ending with statistics.

1:15:16 Oh, yes.

1:15:17 Yes.

1:15:18 And I didn't write down the exact statistic, but it was, you know, I think it was like once every six seconds a.

1:15:24 Rape case is reported.

1:15:26 Six minutes.

1:15:27 Six minutes.

1:15:27 Yeah, something like that.

1:15:28 Sorry.

1:15:29 And again, that's, this is separate from this movie's conversation, but those are just the cases that are reported. I think the statistic going around during this, this, Round of Discourse is that I believe three quarters of women or non-binary identifying people have some experience with assault.

1:15:54 Which still feels like a conservative estimate. So that is the movie. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

1:16:16 Yeah, this is, I'm not surprised that this is a movie that we've kind of been having a discussion throughout. I guess before we, Sarah, is there anything that you want to start the discussion with? Is there anything standing out to you that we haven't started a discussion on yet?

1:16:34 Well, I mean, the only thing that comes to mind is that I find it, we were talking a little bit before in sort of the central rape scene about whose flashback this is and how it does seem to be at least according to the structure of the movie, mostly Ken's flashback. And I find it interesting that it sort of, and again, this is sort of like us situating the movie as part of a time, but the idea that it takes a man's testimony for theoretically the jury in this courtroom and also us, the people watching it to be able to see what happened and for the people hearing this testimony to, to believe it possibly.

1:17:14 Yeah. I, I, Yeah, that's something that, okay, so because obviously this is something that is like on all of our minds in particular right now with the Cornell case and that there's a group chat of I think over 50 people who are aware this was happening and that no one intervened. I'm of many minds about that because it's like it is crucial for men who are aware this is happening and not doing anything to intervene. Put something at stake and intervene. And if you didn't intervene to do everything you humanly can to make it right.

1:17:52 And then in the same way, I do have so I think that the way that the movie handles this plot point is kind of is fairly dated. The shot that was like, ooh, I really want to believe that would not happen in 2026 is at the very, very end. They win the case and we cut to Ken and he kind of gives Sarah a little smile.

1:18:14 A little smile, yeah.

1:18:15 I'm like, you witnessed her horrific... Right. There's this little redemptive shot you get of him that I was like, that... I do think this movie does have an interest in getting men to recognize... And again, I'm saying... Men in the general sense, please don't yell at me, but like getting men to recognize their own complicity in rape culture and in bystander culture and everyone's, but specifically men. Right.

1:18:44 I think that that does feel like a clear part of this movie's agenda. And I'm like, thumbs up. I appreciate it. but it felt like going way too far to give him a little like hero shot at the end of the movie like what do you mean I mean, I agree.

1:18:59 I think it could have been a lot worse, though, which doesn't excuse. But there's so many.

1:19:05 I just found the shot.

1:19:07 Like, cut it. Leave it on the cutting room floor.

1:19:10 Yeah.

1:19:11 But I feel like there are many movies that lean way further into the like. Look how this man-savior, or it's similar to a white-savior narrative. Look how awesome and amazing they are. And the movie will turn focus to them and highlight their redemptive arc or their triumph or whatever. When it's like, no, this is not the story that is being told. We should not shift focus to the savior.

1:19:41 And Jamie, like you were saying, it's complicated because... People with privilege, men, white people, cishet people, et cetera, should use their privilege to help and advocate for and protect and ensure the safety of marginalized people. But that's the bare minimum. So we shouldn't be groveling at their feet and shifting all the focus to them when they display basic human decency.

1:20:13 And it feels a little like, yeah, I think the shot sucks. I do think it's like kind of like, and maybe I'm overthinking this, but like propaganda positive for like, for people who, and again, I'm just going to say men, and I'm so sorry, but like, to men who maybe would not have seen themselves in this movie. I mean, we talk all the time on The Box of Casbah, the patriarchy, the guy archetype. I think this movie avoids that so well. We see such a gradient of People of all genders, really, in their reaction to this crime and to Sarah as a victim and as a survivor.

1:21:00 And I think that the movie seems to maybe be offering Ken as the most accessible self-insert character for men watching this movie. of like, you know, I think that there is this little undercurrent of like, be the Ken in this story.

1:21:18 Be the person. Do you suspect that they tested this and based on comment cards, they were like, oh, we have to give, we have to give the men's name to someone We actually have some information to identify with. We have this information.

1:21:29 Oh, yeah?

1:21:30 Take it away, Jamie.

1:21:31 What happened? Okay, so the story is there. This is coming from a Hollywood reporter, oral history of this movie that came out in 2016.

1:21:40 Okay.

1:21:42 By Rebecca Ford, that talks to basically all of the relevant parties. So this movie was directly inspired by the Cheryl Erujo case, which we'll get to. It was originally pitched by writer Tom Topor, who I don't know very much about, but this is definitely a preoccupation of his writing career. And I don't mean that in a negative way.

1:22:06 So he brings this He was struck by the public response to the Cheryl Orujo case and suggested writing this movie. It is three producers, two of whom are women and definitely worth singling out. Don Steele and Sherry Lansing were the two producers who did get this movie made because this is obviously not a movie that is considered marketable.

1:22:34 And in fact, was one of the first... mainstream films to ever deal with this subject.

1:22:41 Which i mean which is not i was curious i wish i had more time to like not that i doubt it but like to fact check that and to see over time how was this topic previously addressed because i i do believe that there were movies obviously in which rape played a prominent role but yeah not.

1:23:01 And i spit on your grave as one answer but then that's like sure You know, in the B-movie exploitation genre, where also one of the goals of movies in the kind of rape revenge genre in the 70s was to titillate men.

1:23:15 Yes.

1:23:15 And then presumably to make them feel better by watching rapists being murdered and being like, see, it's fine that I felt like that. They're all dead now. Or I don't know how they're supposed to work psychologically, but we sure met a lot of them for a while.

1:23:27 I haven't seen I Spit on Your Grave, but that's what I understand it to be like.

1:23:32 Yeah, very much so.

1:23:34 Yeah.

1:23:34 And this idea of like a mainstream legitimate movie that also doesn't sort of go into euphemisms.

1:23:40 It's like a courtroom drama as well. Like more so than procedural.

1:23:44 Yeah.

1:23:45 Yeah. The quote from Tom Topor when he and Jonathan Kaplan were getting ready to put this movie together after Don Steele and Sherry Lansing pushed it through. He says, Jonathan and I looked at a lot of old films and we couldn't find one that explored the subject. there were almost no movies where the subject of the movie is rape. There are many movies that have a rape incident in them, but the accused is entirely about rape.

1:24:07 There's no other subject. And it's about two women. There's no man who comes to rescue them. It's a very tough subject. So I, yes, the movie was written and directed by men, but at least it was by men who cared about the topic.

1:24:22 And then like the closest thing I can think of is off the top of my head is Anatomy of a Murderer. which came out in maybe 1961, but that's about a woman is raped and her husband murders the man who did it. And it's about the trial. Never seen it. About him going to trial for that. And so what happened to her is relevant, but it's, you know, it comes back to men ultimately, of course.

1:24:44 Got it.

1:24:45 And for Ben Gazzara.

1:24:46 To get her background to, Sarah, your question about test screenings. Yeah. That's all leading up to, So this is covered at length in oral history. When the movie was first test screened, it received the lowest scores in the history of Paramount.

1:25:03 Oh, my God.

1:25:04 Which is unhinged.

1:25:06 And they did the Friday the 13th sequels.

1:25:10 Sherry Lansing says the audience thought that Jodi's character deserved the rape, which is not shocking to hear, but is shocking to hear. I mean, I think there's no person in particular that said this, but coming off of the Cheryl Arugio case where that was very much the energy, it makes you, it made me want to lay down and die because it's like, okay, so this is just proof positive that this horrific trial being broadcast on national television did not change people's minds. And that makes me so angry because Cheryl Arugio was not alive to see this movie. anyways lansing later asks for a screening of the accused with just women which tests far.

1:26:00 Better because the executives at paramount because of this the really low scores on the test screening wanted to basically cancel the release of the movie yeah god and sherry lansing was like not on my watch.

1:26:14 Yeah.

1:26:15 She was like, no, this is consider maybe who this movie is for. Why do we need to prove that women see movies every two years or whatever? Um, but yeah, according to Lansing, there were 20 women who saw the movie at this test screening and 18 said that they had experience with or knew someone who had been raped.

1:26:35 And as they continued to edit the movie, it eventually got one of the highest test scores in the studio's history. So there's, you know, it seems like this is also being filmed and released in a moment. And again, like speaking to your point earlier, Sarah, that we've taken steps forward and back and like, this is very nonlinear, but during a a moment where people's feelings are changing on this topic kind of in real time, which is interesting because this movie does go on to be financially successful, which I wasn't expecting, honestly. And Jodie Foster wins an Oscar for it. And like we talked about, Kelly McGillis luckily chose, this was not information that was like outed about her. She chose to share that she had been

1:27:19 raped just a few years before in a very horrific way and talked about it in the press tour just to really make it clear that like this is an issue that affects everyone it is extremely pervasive for example me so I don't know Caitlin did you have anything else for the production that felt relevant.

1:27:41 Not really I don't think because you already touched on something I wanted to talk about which is the actual filming of the rape scene and how I'm thinking about like if this movie was remade today, not saying that it needs to be, but if this movie came out in 2026, I think it would be filmed differently or I would hope. But even at the time, people were very cautious about it and they understood how it seems like they understood how The impact it might have on audiences, the impact it could have on the cast and crew, and that it was meticulously rehearsed. Seems like measures were taken to ensure people's safety on set. And even so, it was still quite traumatic to many people involved. Just to kind of reiterate that.

1:28:34 Absolutely.

1:28:35 Absolutely. Yeah, I think that was everything I had for the production. I did want to talk. a little more about the case that inspired this. Yes.

1:28:45 Yeah.

1:28:45 It does feel relevant for us to, to get in on that. So, uh, this is based on a case around a woman named Cheryl Arrujo, which is, Again, it's like this is something I was vaguely aware of because New Bedford is pretty similar, I guess, like socioeconomically to my hometown, Brockton. So it's like, I don't know, very, very aware of New Bedford. Also, iconically, like a lot of Moby Dick is in New Bedford. There is an annual reading of Moby Dick in New Bedford. It's great.

1:29:19 And what is relevant here, because while I think the accused, I'm like, kind of blown away with how much I how well how well I thought it did with all these difficult topics given the moment it came out in and also kind of not given the moment it came out and we're not really getting movies like this now frequently and certainly not ones that become I mean we had Sorry Baby last year but I think you know it's like Promising Young Woman and Sorry Baby are sort of the only two movies of the last 10 years that I feel like I've really broken through in in a like award sense on this topic. So it definitely has paved the way for a lot, but there are differences and things that it doesn't deal with that the

1:29:58 case that inspired it does that feel relevant to talk about. The two things that really stuck out to me were the issue of prejudice, first of all, and then second, the issue of media coverage.

1:30:14 Yes.

1:30:15 Caitlin, you alluded to this earlier.

1:30:16 We both watched the episode of Trial by Media on Netflix. I'm interested to watch the rest of that series. Deborah's in it. Shout out, Deborah. Oh, and then the third thing is how feminists were actually crucially involved in these cases and like public response. So, okay, Cheryl Arrujo, the case itself, the details of the case are quite similar down to the fact that the reason that a pinball machine in the accused is so focused on is because they had to change that from a pool table, which is from the original case. Important to note, we should not know Cheryl Arujo's name. So this is something that is, again, the accused does not really get into media exploitation. But what was remarkable about the Cheryl Arujo case is that

1:31:08 it was one of the first, if not the first, rape case to be Broadcast televised.

1:31:13 Yeah.

1:31:13 Yes.

1:31:13 Televised began locally and then escalated to like an early coup for CNN. And because of that and you hear the the judge in this he speaks for this and explains why he felt it might be in the interest of the public good to understand how rape trials work. You can like I guess if it hasn't been done before, I can see why you might want to feel optimistic about it. But what we learned very quickly is that that is not at all the case. And that because there was no experience to to like harken back to for broadcasting a rape case. Her identity was not sufficiently protected.

1:31:58 The everyone agreed. I thought this was fascinating because this this is like so far out the window at this point of how we talk about rape cases where the idea of Jane Doe is still held. But again, like everyone agreed, like there was no argument. We don't need to know what this woman's name is and we don't need to see her on television. But they fucked it up and accidentally aired her name on TV, which effectively.

1:32:27 Doxed her?

1:32:28 Doxed her and ruined her life, right? Because the other element at play here is that Charlotte Rougeau, like many people in New Bedford, there's a big Portuguese population and Portuguese immigrant population. And all of the very New England prejudices therein and American prejudices in general towards Portuguese people.

1:32:49 So both Cheryl Arujo is Portuguese or of Portuguese descent and the men who raped her were also of Portuguese descent, which makes sense in a majority Portuguese community. However, what this and this vaguely, Sarah, I was thinking like it vaguely reminds me of elements of the OJ case because. Cheryl is, you know, like goes to the police and says, I, you know, I was raped by, I believe, six men and that there were witnesses. Like we talked about, these trials kind of happen alongside each other. There isn't a Kelly McGillis character in this story, but that a lot of white bread, like nimby types in this area take this opportunity to say, oh, well, of course she was raped.

1:33:38 Portuguese immigrants are unsafe and use it as this big opportunity to say like, well, I knew it because I am prejudiced against immigrants. Like I'm, I'm racist. I'm horrible. And so Cheryl Arujo was like dealing with multiple layers that we don't see with Sarah because the story has been you know, pretty whitewashed.

1:34:00 Because they couldn't fit it into two hours. Well, and not to offer that as an excuse, but just, yeah, to say that the complexity of real life doesn't fit into the time of a movie.

1:34:13 I couldn't find a phase of production where this was even considered.

1:34:17 To be included. And that seems tactical as well in a depressing way.

1:34:22 In a depressing way, yeah. Because not only is Cheryl Arujo doxed, but she's also kind of cast out of her own community in New Bedford because people blame her and blame her reporting this case in the first place for this new wave of anti-immigrant sentiment in this area. So she is... you know, ostracized from her own community to some extent. Again, I'm not saying 100%, but that this became a very complicated, charged issue in the Portuguese community, understandably, because there was this wave of prejudice that came off of this case that was then put on Cheryl Arrucho.

1:35:04 There was also a lot of local protests. There was a lot of feminist organizing. I think more so than we see in The Accused, There was a lot of public support of Cheryl as this case went on. You know, I get why there might not have been bandwidth to show it within the accused. But it was I mean, if you see these crowd shots of New Bedford is like not a big city. And the streets are like flooded with people on both sides of this issue at different points. But it is flooded with feminists. It is flooded with Portuguese feminists specifically who are like, let her fucking speak. This is a more complicated issue than you're making it out to be. You see all the classic, I mean, things we still see today of what was

1:35:55 she wearing culture. We see something I thought, sorry, I'm like talking so much. I'm sorry, guys.

1:36:01 Keep talking.

1:36:02 We see how people received watching this case because again, people just like hadn't, this hadn't happened before. There wasn't precedent for it. So there's like local reporters who are interviewing people watching this in bars. People are saying something that feels so normalized today that it was almost bizarre to watch people talk about it as if like, It wasn't something that happens every day, which is depressing. But it was like people in bars being like, yeah, normally I watch soap operas, but now I'm watching this, which is there's a whole true crime industry around that now.

1:36:38 Waiting to be born.

1:36:39 Yeah. But this was unusual. People were like, well, what, you know, and there were feminist groups that were like, well, if we're consuming it like we're consuming soap operas, then this is not the right way to consume it. And there's also the argument that like for a lot of people seeing, I do see the cultural value of seeing how rape is treated in court because you'd see like right up front, all of these questions similar to what we see Jodie Foster confronted with in The Accused, just putting her on trial, blaming her. The feeling at the time was like, well, this is going to not encourage other survivors of sexual assault to come forward, which is true.

1:37:24 But again, I guess maybe my hot take there is I don't think that's a fault of the broadcast. That is one of the valuable parts of the broadcast is to show that the American justice system only traumatizes the victim further in many of these cases. And it shows you directly how much you have to put on the line to even address this in a court. Like, I don't think that that was the, I think that this case would have gone that way either way. Yeah.

1:37:51 And I think it is interesting that kind of the arguments you see people making about, you know, during kind of this period and other periods when it was possible to use new technology to broadcast trials in some way, especially live, this idea that you know, it'll shed light on the whole process and it'll discourage corruption and it'll educate the people. And I feel like now in the world that we live in, it is so sort of everyday to have the trial as entertainment that it seems sort of quaint to think of it that way. And yet it is, that is also true. Like I do choose to believe that at least that, you know, And also it's then true that whatever you offer to people for education, they can then turn around and use as

1:38:37 entertainment in perhaps a pretty ghoulish way or that they can use media that you're offering them to challenge their assumptions. They can use to back up their own assumptions if they're determined enough to do it. And just the sort of lack of control that you have over how people use that information is pretty humbling, I guess.

1:38:59 Yeah, 100%. The last thing that I think is worth acknowledging, and this isn't a criticism of the movie, really. I think that there actually is a value in showing a rape case that ends to the victim's satisfaction. The outcome in the accused is not the outcome in the Cheryl or Rujo case. The outcome in the Cheryl or Rujo case is kind of, well, not exactly flipped. But that the assailants themselves were found guilty, but the witnesses were found not guilty. And then there was a huge wave of protests in the streets of New Bedford, again, in favor of the rapists. Yay! They said, innocent, innocent, innocent.

1:39:49 But anyways, just to speak to, because I know the bystander topic is so focused on in the accused, that's not how it went in the Arujo case and Tragically, Cheryl and her daughters, so the other, obviously, one of the clear risks of being doxxed is Cheryl's safety, but she also had two young daughters. And after her name was publicly aired, after she was assured it would not be, she was immediately, you know, ostracized in her own community.

1:40:19 She was born and raised in New Bedford, only place she ever lived, but didn't feel safe, especially after the case ended. She and her daughters moved to Miami. I'm unclear. This has been disputed, so we don't know. But it seems like she had substance use issues following this case, which who on earth could blame her? And she died at 25 in a car crash. So she died in 1986, two years before this movie even came out. So I think it is very easy to see the direct consequences of how this case was handled and even though she quote unquote won in that her rapists went to prison, but she did not win. This ordeal top to bottom ruined her life. And it just, I don't, I'm not suggesting that there is a lesson there really, but just,

1:41:20 you know, a very sort of horrific and grim example of how absurd it is to argue that anybody survivor of assault would advocate for themselves for attention. You know what I mean? Like it's just, it's the amount that the assault and the trials that surrounded the assault and the public speculation and the having to be on trial herself Even if you get the outcome that you go to court to get, that does not mean that everything is fixed.

1:41:55 You're still faced with so much scrutiny and just living with the trauma.

1:42:02 Yeah, it's like the trauma of the trial on top of the trauma of the assault itself. I was aware of the case, but I didn't realize that she... passed away so, so young. And her daughters have gone on to preserve her memory and talk about this as time has gone on.

1:42:26 A few things that struck me about the movie, and we've already touched on a few of these things, but like we were saying, the movie doesn't focus on how much the press was involved in this trial. It is there. You do get a sense of this story being becoming national news. It's certainly not the focus of the movie.

1:42:49 It's sort of there in the background. But how anytime we see like a news report about this case in the movie, it's always centering the defense who keeps saying that Sarah is a liar, that there was no crime, was no rape. Then the press speculates that the case didn't go to trial, like the rape case, not the criminal solicitation case, but that that one didn't go to trial because Sarah is not a suitable witness for the state.

1:43:20 So it just, I feel like it sheds light on the fact that like the harm that the press can and often has on rape culture the scene toward the beginning in the hospital struck me because the hospital staff are treating sarah in a pretty dehumanizing way like she she has.

1:43:41 Oh yeah treating her like virginia madsen and candy man and she's all covered in dog blood.

1:43:46 Right and it's it's this series of not super overt victim blaming questions, but not, not that.

1:43:56 Like when was the last time you had sex? And you're like, yeah.

1:44:00 Have you, have you ever contracted an STI?

1:44:02 Like, I believe that this could be relevant somehow, but yeah.

1:44:07 And then when she's being, when Sarah is like receiving her pelvic exam, the, the nurse or whoever is saying like, relax, you're tensing. And it's like, well, yeah, she was raped. moments ago.

1:44:20 I was also struck by and this is just like I don't know what is considered normal here or like what because there might be a function for doing this. I was like the rape crisis advocate was standing next to the nurse and so presumably watching the exam take place which I'm.

1:44:40 Curious if that was Like standard procedure?

1:44:46 Standard procedure.

1:44:47 Yeah.

1:44:47 Because that to me is like... Like smoking in a courthouse back then.

1:44:50 Right. Because it's like you want to... I don't know. If someone's in this predicament, I mean, I guess you just sort of want to see that moment of consent because I can also see the value of ensuring that the medical professional is treating you fairly and to be able to confirm what is seen because... Medical professionals don't always, like you're saying, Caitlin, treat rape victims with the appropriate amount of care. So I can see the value in overseeing the proceedings, but you also just want to sort of make sure that she's cool with that. Right.

1:45:21 So I guess the point that I'm trying to arrive at is I feel like this movie highlights the ways in which different institutions under patriarchy and rape culture handle sexual assault yes such as health care such as the press such as the justice system obviously the justice system is what this movie primarily focuses on but that all of these systems have the potential to and often do fail yeah survivors or treat them in a very dehumanizing way and then to speak more to the justice system aspect of that I found this scene between Catherine and Sarah when Catherine goes to Sarah's house for the first time to ask her questions as she's trying to build this prosecution case. And Catherine starts by asking a series

1:46:18 of questions. very victim blaming questions. And you think at first, and I don't think this is true of Catherine's character, but you think at first as if she is asking these questions because she believes the validity of these questions, such as how much did you have to drink that night? What were you wearing? Did you show cleavage, see-through blouse?

1:46:41 Did you put on a show? What about your criminal record? Have you ever had sex with more than one person at the same time? And you're like, oh my God. And then throughout this, Sarah keeps responding with like, what the fuck difference does it make what I was wearing? Do you think I asked for this to happen to me? Like, fuck you, get out of my house.

1:47:01 There are better ways to begin that conversation than the way she did. Totally.

1:47:08 Because then you get the sense that she's asking these questions to prove a point. The point being... this is what the defense is going to ask you. So I'm trying to prepare you as your attorney. But yeah, I agree. Catherine didn't handle that very well and ask questions that were like pretty traumatizing.

1:47:27 This is, this movie is partly about her growing into a girl's girl. Yeah.

1:47:31 I mean, yeah.

1:47:32 Yeah.

1:47:33 Which I actually do. Like we've talked about, I, I, I think that that's like a worthwhile journey to see. Yeah. And I like that because from what I can tell, the Kelly McGillis character is sort of made up for the purpose of the movie. And there's not a direct analog in the same way that there is for Cheryl or Rougeau. I think it's like a very valuable thing to see like F for women and for lawyers and public servants. Yeah. Yeah.

1:48:03 Because there were also a couple other women in the story worth noting. One of them being Sally, who I find to be such a fascinating character.

1:48:14 All of Sarah's closest friends have variants of her own name. Sally the waitress and Sadie the dog.

1:48:19 Oh, yeah.

1:48:20 Whoa, that's true.

1:48:21 It's a real Paul Bettany in a beautiful mind kind of a situation.

1:48:24 So many Sarahs.

1:48:25 That's true.

1:48:26 Yeah.

1:48:28 But she seems reluctant to talk to Catherine in ways that you can potentially understand. But also, she seems like she... Knows more than she initially lets on. When you see the flashback where, to me, it seemed like she had some sense of what was going on and chose to leave rather than trying to help Sarah. That might be due partly to the scorpion tattoo guy. It seems like he turns to Sally to say, like, you're next. And then she leaves because she's trying to protect herself. But it's just, I guess, I don't know what my point is, but just I think it's interesting to show a character who you think would try to help her friend, but chooses not to in the interest of preserving her own safety, just kind of demonstrating the complicated nature of all of this.

1:49:31 I felt that I appreciated that because that's, I think, sort of, to me, the reveal of In the rape scene, everything else is stuff that we already know. I think the one thing that we don't know is that Sally is not exactly telling the truth about her having no idea this was going on. Which, to be fair, there is a Sally analog in the Cheryl LaRugia case who genuinely didn't know what was going on. So that's an intentional change. She had left by the time that began.

1:49:59 So it's inspired by, but not a one-to-one. But yeah, and that we see, we're shown why, like you're saying, Caitlin, we're shown why even though the movie doesn't excuse it. We see that she has two young kids. We see that she is working a waitstaff job. We see, we're given the explanation as to why she is not willing to stick her neck out for her friend, which feels relevant.

1:50:24 Because again, it's like Sally, I think, is a character that probably people saw themselves in.

1:50:31 Sure.

1:50:31 And, and makes it so that, yeah, like not all bystanders are necessarily can, you know?

1:50:38 Right.

1:50:39 Yeah.

1:50:39 And then there's another woman who we see for the first time in the flashback who seems to be hanging out with one of the men who would go on to rape Sarah. And this woman seems to be jealous of the attention that Danny is paying to Sarah. And she sees Sarah dancing, quote unquote, provocatively, uh, And her actions and words imply that she thinks that Sarah is a slut and then leaves because of it. She doesn't want to see the quote unquote show that she thinks that Sarah is putting on. So I guess my point is, yeah, I think this movie does a good job of showcasing the different mentalities that are all pretty much byproducts of rape culture that people of all genders can harbor, often in different ways, but that there are gradients, like shades

1:51:36 of gray, I suppose.

1:51:37 I agree.

1:51:39 And I think the last thing I have to say, and this is just, I mean, and again, I know that not one movie can do everything, but worth mentioning that this movie is very white, especially because it's pulling from a story that took place in a far more diverse area. People talk about, I mean, I will never stop dying on the Hill of the fact that Massachusetts is way more diverse than it's portrayed in media, but that it is a very white movie and that non-white women are disproportionately affected by sexual violence. And so there is this tendency that is not the fault of any one survivor that that white women's stories tend to be centered in these discussions. This was a big component of how we talked about Me Too. And so I think

1:52:29 it's worth mentioning that. And I also... think that that decision was very likely a strategic one going back to what you were saying before sarah of like this movie was like so unlikely that it was going to get made it almost didn't see the light of day and i feel like that unfortunately because of how media around sexual violence works they quote-unquote played it safe where they could where they centered whiteness And men are at the top of the production on paper, even though Sherry Lansing and Don Steele are really the people who make it happen.

1:53:12 I'm so glad that this movie exists. Don Steele also, this is a totally separate thing, but just a fascinating person. She unfortunately died in her early 50s, but the three movies she pushed through that aren't this, are Flashdance, Top Gun, and Fatal Attraction. Oh my God.

1:53:31 She was all.

1:53:32 Over the damn place.

1:53:34 So we would be living in a totally different world if not for her.

1:53:38 She really, and she wrote a memoir that I am actually kind of curious about.

1:53:42 Great title.

1:53:43 They Can Kill You, But They Can't Eat You. Wow. Okay. I just, I think this was my first time learning about her Oh, Sister Act 2, Back in the Habit as well.

1:53:54 Wow.

1:53:55 Let's not forget Honey, I Blew Up the Kid, Cool Runnings. Oh, great.

1:54:00 She just was. Oh, and she also dated Richard Gere pre-fame and Martin Scorsese post-Isabella Rossellini divorce. So I just wanted to introduce a new diva into the chat. And I want to read They Can Kill You But They Can't Eat You.

1:54:20 I want you to read that to me. I would, I would be so happy to. Okay. Thank heavens. Yeah.

1:54:26 Yeah.

1:54:27 And I, I guess this is, um, I don't know this, the story of this, how this movie got to us also feels like proof that in industries controlled by men, including law and entertainment and law, law entertainment, I guess men will never stop claiming that something clearly for women is for nobody.

1:54:47 Um, Yes.

1:54:48 Because they don't think anything is happening inside of women's heads, I guess. And therefore, why would we need movies? And they will like they will never not be surprised. And so at least that's consistent.

1:55:00 Yay.

1:55:04 Is there anything else anyone wants to talk about?

1:55:08 I love Jodie Foster. I love Jodie Foster, too. And I guess I love Kelly McGillis now. I have a new appreciation for her.

1:55:15 Also, her character is supposed to be 29. What? I know.

1:55:19 Yeah, she says she was born in 59.

1:55:21 I feel like that's based on the Hollywood law that no one, or I guess 28, actually, if it's set in 87. I know that no one in a movie is allowed to be over the age of 30, except for like Sharon Moonstruck, but this is a big case for her to, at such a young age.

1:55:38 I didn't realize that.

1:55:39 She needed to spend a few years at legal aid or something and, you know, and then maybe work her way up to this, but whatever. She's, she did a good job ultimately, I suppose.

1:55:49 I guess the last thing I wanted to share from the, from the oral history was that, I mean, that, At least for the people involved in this film, making this movie was an extreme net positive. Kelly McGillis says that as of 10 years ago, there were still people who had come up to her, mostly women, who cited seeing the movie and the movie's success as a reason that they felt either motivated to, if not pursue justice in a conventional sense, speak about it with people. So I think that this is definitely a... an under discussed stepping stone movie toward what you would hope would be more movies.

1:56:32 But I do think, you know, stuff like the accused, I don't know. Do you get, I may destroy you if you, if you don't have the accused, like I, I'm not sure. Um, I think that it definitely has an important place in history and just one more Don Steele fact, because I'm now obsessed with her. This is a quote from Jonathan Kaplan that I'm just like, Oh my God.

1:56:50 Okay.

1:56:51 Don was pregnant when we were getting ready to shoot. Then she was let go from Paramount during the shoot fired while she was in labor. That's, that's the environment we were dealing with at the time. So it's just the director trying to say everyone was so misogynist that it was like you had to be there, um, getting fired from your executive job while in labor.

1:57:10 So just to, yeah. Oh my God. Well, wow.

1:57:14 Let's, let's sit with that.

1:57:16 And yet we still got the movie. We still got the movie.

1:57:19 I mean, it seems kind of like a miracle that we did. Um, Yeah.

1:57:23 I wonder what that baby is up to right now.

1:57:24 Oh, I hope she's well.

1:57:27 I hope she's well.

1:57:29 She also, yeah, also her dad was a bodybuilder. Like I, who knows? A lot of interesting stuff with her.

1:57:34 Donna Steele.

1:57:36 Donna Steele. Her last name wasn't Steele. Her dad just went by Man of Steel and she's like, okay, I'm using it. She sounds awesome, dude.

1:57:46 I have no idea if you're kidding or not.

1:57:47 No, it's true.

1:57:49 It's true.

1:57:49 Oh, really?

1:57:50 I thought you were kidding.

1:57:51 Yeah.

1:57:51 This is like when you told me that Pilates was invented by a guy whose last name was Pilates.

1:57:56 No.

1:57:56 Oh, my God.

1:57:57 That's my favorite detail ever. Joseph Pilates is like, sure.

1:58:01 Hey, it's me, Joe Pilates.

1:58:04 No, no her her last name was tarlo and then she's like actually it's steel yeah which anyways she's fascinating um does it pass the vectal test yes yes it does it.

1:58:16 Does a lot a lot absolutely as far as our nipple scale goes where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens This movie feels ahead of its time for me.

1:58:33 I agree.

1:58:33 I mean, there are so many parallels between what happens in this movie and the current conversation around the Cornell case and many, many other rape and sexual assault cases. One would hope that this movie from almost 40 years ago wouldn't feel so relevant and familiar today, but... Unfortunately, history just keeps repeating itself and so many people have learned nothing when it comes to what consent is and how not to victim blame and just the horrors of.

1:59:03 Rape culture in general.

1:59:05 So that doesn't feel great. We didn't talk much about this, but I appreciate that it also examines how class plays into people trying to invalidate Sarah as a witness and as a survivor including it seems to some degree her attorney Catherine but then Catherine comes around but um yeah I appreciate that class is examined but yeah there's there's just so many interesting things about this movie the brutal rape scene at the end I wish had been handled differently but also there are probably many People, parentheses men, who need to see something like that to understand. Yeah.

2:00:00 All this to say, I think I'll give it three and a half nipples. And I'll give them all to Jodie Foster. The end.

2:00:09 I'm going to give it four, I think. I think, given... I'm grading it, I guess, on a curve, given its time. I had a hard time with the rape scene, but I guess... That makes... I, yeah, I don't, I don't really have anything else to say, but I just want to say to listeners who are, who are struggling right now and struggling to figure out what their, where, where their head is at. And, you know, on top of whatever your personal stuff is, just that, that I think very painful deja vu of seeing these processes happen over and over that it's like, you know, stay angry, Protect your peace and stay angry, I think. We can do these things at the same time. It's a long fight.

2:01:04 So I'm going to give four nipples. I'm going to give one to Jodi, one to Kelly, one to Dawn, and one to Sherry, the four women who kind of make this movie possible. Nice.

2:01:16 Sarah, how about you?

2:01:18 I think, yeah, the same. Four nipples on a curve, but I'm going to give all mine to Jodie Foster because I'm very biased.

2:01:25 Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Again, difficult conversation. So we really appreciate your willing to do this. And we appreciate all you do. So thank you so much.

2:01:38 We love you. We love you.

2:01:40 I love you both. Thank you so much for having me. Always. Yeah, I'm just glad to be all here together in this moment, even if we are on the same log.

2:01:51 As before.

2:01:53 Yeah.

2:01:53 We come to this place to feel like shit.

2:01:58 Yeah.

2:01:59 Thank you.

2:01:59 Yeah.

2:02:00 Of course.

2:02:01 Where can people check out your work, follow you online.

2:02:06 Et cetera? Oh, you can check out my work over at You're Wrong About. It's a podcast about all kinds of history that I find interesting, including the stories of maligned women. And Jamie just did some bonus episodes with me talking about The Memoirs of Mary Jo Buttafuoco, a book called Getting It Through My Thick Skull. And Jamie was so wonderful.

2:02:32 Sarah, I've just, I don't know, we'll never stop extolling how wonderful all of your work is. And just, I don't know, your rug about really has like shaped me and so many people. And you are so loved. Indeed.

2:02:48 I'm so happy to just get to, yeah, to get to talk about whatever's happening in the world with you. And yeah, thank you both so much. Thank you. We love you.

2:03:00 And listeners, we love you. Yeah, it feels weird to plug at the end of this. Find us on Instagram. Find us on our Patreon, aka Matreon, where you can get two bonus episodes a month. That's the best way.

2:03:13 To support the show.

2:03:15 And with that, let's have a good lay on the floor, shall we? Oh, my gosh.

2:03:22 Please.

2:03:23 That sounds amazing.

2:03:23 Let's have some horizontal time and decompress.

2:03:26 And if you're Jodi Foster, let me make you lunch. I would get up really early to do it.

2:03:30 Oh, yes.

2:03:31 And with that, Jodi Foster, get in Sarah's inbox. I know.

2:03:36 Maybe she'll email me back after almost two decades. Yeah.

2:03:42 Oh, bye.

2:03:43 She's been thinking of you this whole time.

2:03:45 Bye-bye. Bye. The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus.

2:03:55 And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichterman.

2:04:00 And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them?

2:04:03 That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus.

2:04:10 Ever heard of her?

2:04:10 Oh, my God.

2:04:12 And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

2:04:15 With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski. Iconic.

2:04:19 And a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

2:04:23 For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com.