Hedwig and the Angry Inch with Mia Schachter

On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them.

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The Bechtelcast. Hello.

Hello. Listeners of the Bechdel cast, you've tuned in to the episode on Hedwig and the Angry Inch.

Cut to four elderly straight people.

And we immediately walk them.

I have a guitar. I could do it.

Oh, my gosh. If you would do the honors.

I don't know if it's in tune, but maybe that fits with the movie, actually.

I would not say that what I just did could be described as in tune. Okay, wait. Welcome to the Bechdelcast, the podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies from an intersectional feminist lens.

My name is Caitlin Durante.

My name is Jamie Loftus. But Caitlin, what the fuck is the Bechdel test?

It's a media metric created by friend of the show, Alison Bechdel. First appearing in her comic collection, Dykes to Watch Out For, in the 80s, has since become a more mainstream media metric. There are many different versions of it. The one that we use is, do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?

And is their conversation about something other than a man?

Take it home.

Woo!

Yay!

Applause, applause!

And today we're talking about Hedwig and the Angry Inch, 2001, John Cameron Mitchell. Yet another movie as we celebrate our tenure that you'd think we would have covered it by this time, but we're doing it today. And we have an incredible guest. So let's get them in here. Let's get them in the mix.

Indeed.

Well, actually, they've already been in the mix, unbeknownst to you.

Literally the mix, if we're talking about audio mixing. They are an author, multimedia artist, and intimacy coordinator for TV, film, and theater. It's their mission to make consent education as digestible and widely available as possible so that you can identify your desires, needs, and boundaries better. and authentically express them to others in your own unique voice. And they are the author of the book, How to Do Consent Without Sounding Like a Robot, that comes out September 15th.

It's Mia Schachter.

Hi.

Welcome.

Hi, thank you for having me. I'm very, very excited about this.

Oh, we're so excited to have you.

Thanks so much for being here. We would love to hear, before we jump into the discussion, more about your book. Tell us more about it.

Sure.

It's published by North Atlantic Books. It's coming out September 15th. It's a book of essays and interviews about consent divided by topic. So there's gender, sex, creativity, which I think we'll end up talking about a lot today. I talk about accountability and regret, what consent is and what it isn't. Yeah, those are like the different parts within the book. And then I have each part is punctuated by an interview with someone who, you know, who's like niche realm relates to that topic.

Very cool.

Very excited to get into it. Well, we'll link it in the description for all of our, for all of our listeners. I feel like this is a, this is, this is a perfect overlap. Well, with that, shall we jump into Hedwig and the Angry Inch? What is your history with this I guess film, stage production, whatever order it came to you in.

Okay, I think I saw this movie for the first time in college. And I was blown away. I grew up on Rent. Like that was a formative musical for me. I was born in 1989. I was listening to that soundtrack by the time I was like eight years old. I had the whole thing memorized. And then I found Hedwig and it felt so... kind of, you know, aesthetically and like tonally related. And I loved how it was sort of like a musician's musical, you know, like it's not a full orchestra. There's like a rock band on stage and it's about a musician and it was very like indie, but just such a stunning story. And then I worked at a coffee shop in New York, um, a chain called Think Coffee and And I was serving John Cameron Mitchell a triple espresso like most mornings.

That's a very punk rock coffee order. I know.

Well, and more punk rock, he was showing up in a leather jacket with a motorcycle helmet.

And then ordering a triple espresso? Okay, kind of terrifying. That's awesome. I know.

I know.

But it was so exciting. I do think at some point I worked up the courage to say, like, I'm a big fan, you know? And then I guess, you know, every time I've, like, been in, like, a new sort of serious relationship, I've been like, we need to watch this. Like, it's time to watch Hedwig, you know? It's like Romeo and Juliet, the Baz Luhrmann version.

Yeah.

A movie called The Apartment, which I also almost suggested.

We've covered it before. It's amazing.

One of my top, top favorite movies. Also so interesting from like a consent perspective, especially like in the modern era. And Hedwig. So it's just an iconic movie for me. And then I also recently wrote and starred in and produced my own musical. And it's very much, you know, a child of Hedwig. Like, my musical wouldn't exist without Hedwig.

Oh, awesome.

That's incredible. Wait, can we know more about the musical?

Yeah, it's about my sort of torrid love affair and codependent relationship with a tapeworm that I had for a few years. Yeah, unknowingly, until it came out. And so it's the story of me, like, discovering why I've been sick. Mm-hmm. And then trying to like extricate myself from this relationship, both with this worm, but also like with the identity of ill, of like chronically ill and disabled. And then also like as an artist losing this crutch that like allowed me to kind of hide and stay small and like not go to the party and, you know, just be like, I'm going to stay home and yeah like sort of losing that crutch and now feeling like there's nothing stopping me but me sure as an artist and then the the worm takes over the show and I

have to kind of work my way back into it as a parasite would.

That sounds so interesting that rocks that.

So much I want to see it that's so cool.

Well, we're doing it again in November in Los Angeles at the Elysian Theater.

Oh, we perform there all the time. We're both in LA.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Oh, well, then you guys should come.

Yeah. Absolutely. I love the Elysian.

Great.

Back to Hedwig. Jamie, what's your history with the movie?

I had seen it once before, and it was such a great experience seeing it the first time that I feel like I haven't returned to it because I think I had a really optimal first experience. with Hedwig. But Mia, to echo you, I was also a huge Rent kid. I remember when I think Rent closed on Broadway. when I was in middle school and I lived in Massachusetts and me and my best friends who were also twins who were obsessed with rent, we like devised a plan to go. I just, it was like a big part of my childhood. And also, you know, I think a lot of kids, you know, like found rent and it opened up all these other doors. And I think Hedwig for many of those same kids is one of the first doors you encounter. You kind of graduate from, From

being a rent child and then you become a Hedwig teen, maybe.

Totally.

But I don't know why, but it took me a long time to see Hedwig. And the first time I saw it was in a basement in Indiana early into. Touring as a standup and it was just like this awesome standup community in Fort Wayne, Indiana. It was like this big pocket of queer comics. And, um, I just remember I was crashing with someone and they were like, Oh, we're gonna have a bunch of people over and watch Hedwig.

And so it was like, it was optimal. I saw Hedwig in a room full of like former Hedwig teens and who were so stoked that I had never seen it. It felt, and we'll talk about all of the ways that Hedwig is in conversation with Rocky Horror, but it felt sort of like the experience of seeing Rocky Horror for the first time, where it was just like, you know, for positive reasons and reasons that are more complicated, but just unbridled enthusiasm that I had never seen it before.

And like the night became about like, oh my God, someone's seeing it for the first time. How exciting. Also a John Cameron Mitchell fan. The music is pretty unbeatable. Even though I'd only seen the movie once, I have Hedwig's in my rotation. And there's also a lot to talk about, and I'm excited too. Yeah, Caitlin, what's your history?

I saw this for the first time during the great Caitlin movie binge of 2005, as I've seen many movies for the first time. And I haven't watched it since. Listeners of the show may know that I'm not the biggest musical head. I do. I find that musicals with like diegetic music are easier for me to digest.

What does that mean?

So.

Diegetic audio is when the music is like coming from within the story so like when they're playing a show in front of a crowd that's like happening within the context of the world and the story versus non-diegetic audio is any audio that only the audience can hear versus the other characters within the world so when characters are in a musical and they just sort of like burst into song about their feelings or whatever and no other characters are meant to really be hearing it. So for example, I love like Josie and the Pussycats where they're playing like diegetic concerts and Spice World where they're playing... diegetic songs and things like that.

Got it. I feel like the best yardstick for like, because it, I feel like I was mixing it up for years and the best movie to use as a yardstick is Chicago because they have numbers that start non-diegetic and then become diegetic. Like they have numbers that like straddle it in a fun way.

Sure.

Yeah.

So Hedwig and the Angry Inch has diegetic songs, but even so, something I'm just like really discovering about myself is is that when someone, I just don't like to watch people sing. I just sort of completely tune out. Unless it really pushes the story forward in a meaningful way, which this movie does as well. There's a lot of exposition in the music, but I mean.

Yeah, a lot of the songs are just straight up, and then this happened, but in a way that's awesome. I don't know.

Yeah, I know, I know. What I'm saying is that I appreciate elements of this movie, but I'm not the biggest fan. So I'm the villain of the episode once again.

You don't have to come to my musical.

No, I actually like watching... a live musical on the stage.

Live. Titanic. Titanic. Oh, wow.

I traveled across an ocean to see Paddington the musical.

Wow.

I like like a live musical on the stage.

Okay.

So I will be there. Yes.

Okay.

We'll be in attendance.

I should add to my history with this movie that I did actually see John Cameron Mitchell do it on Broadway.

Oh, that's amazing.

Yeah. It was incredible. They like, they revived it and they did it with a rotating cast of Hedwig's. So like Taye Diggs played Hedwig.

That's the Hedwig. I was like, that would have been my Hedwig of choice.

Yeah.

Well, I didn't know when John Cameron Mitchell did it that Taye was, I think, next. Rent history there. So anyway, I saw John Cameron Mitchell do it live and it was incredible.

That sounds amazing. Yeah. I wasn't sure because we've covered... Throughout the course of the show, there is an interesting pattern of... Basically, I didn't know if the show started on stage or went on stage.

I think it started on stage. It did. And then it became a movie, and then it got revived on stage. And by the way, I realized this this time that I watched the movie, because I watched it last week in preparation for this, John Cameron Mitchell didn't write the music. No. I always just assumed that he did.

I know. I feel like it's because he embodies... Hedwig so fully that you just assumed. But it was like, oh, yeah, I guess you can't be good at that many things.

Well, but he does sing, you know, like he is obviously musical.

Right.

So, but I don't know, maybe he just didn't feel like he could write the songs.

I don't know. Yeah, he and a writer named Stephen Trask co-wrote the book for the original stage production. And then John Cameron Mitchell wrote the screenplay for the movie. But then the other songs were written by... I didn't.

Write it down. Well, this is like another way that Hedwig feels more in... Because we've covered movies that have starred... Like movies that have... non-conforming gender main characters that started as a movie and went to Broadway, usually with diminishing returns. I'm thinking about Tootsie. I'm thinking about Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

Mrs. Doubtfire.

Mrs. Doubtfire and Toowong Fu all have become Broadway musicals. But I think that this sort of firmed up in my head. I was like, oh, Hedwig is way more like Rocky Horror because Rocky Horror was like stage to movie back to stage and has like more of an indie spirit than like a successful movie being turned into a Broadway musical. Right.

Right.

Right. But anyways. Yeah.

Okay.

So, so we've, we'd all seen it before and I think that this is the first time I've seen Hedwig and the Angry Inch that I like knew who Miriam Shore was. So that was delightful.

I don't, who is that?

Miriam Shore plays Yitzhak. Yitzhak. Hedwig's husband. Oh, um, and I really enjoyed her in the TV land series younger. And so I was like, wait, I reckon anyways.

Yes.

And right.

I've seen her. She's been around for ages and I, I, I forgot her name, but yes, I've seen her. I mean, oh my God, I can't even remember what I've seen her and I've seen her and she's just like ever so present.

If there's one, if there's one thing I love, it's a Gen X character actor. And so that this movie is rewarding in many, many ways.

Yes.

Oh, and she was in just like, and just like that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. She's been in so many things and, and, and is so, um, disguised in this movie.

Right yeah which i'm interested to talk about further as well but yeah i guess should we get into the recap but take a quick break first sure sure And we're back. And here is the recap of Hedwig and the Angry Inch. We meet Hedwig, played by John Cameron Mitchell, the lead singer of a band called Hedwig and the Angry Inch. They are performing at a show that's at like a family diner in Kansas city. And they are like walking a bunch of people out of the room.

This is like, this scene is so as I mean, Caitlin, I know you have this as well, but like as a, as a long standup comic who has performed in so many rooms full of people who are just straight up angry to see you.

Yes.

I feel very seen, uh, by this movie and also slightly triggered by it. We were like, oh, a restaurant full of people who are like, get the hell out of here.

Yeah, who didn't know a comedy show was about to happen and then it's sprung on them and they're furious about it.

Well, doesn't she play... She plays at like an old folks home at some point, like a nursing home at some point.

Traveling artist PTSD.

She perpetually performs for audiences that do not want to see her. Yeah.

Very true.

Yeah. Which is like artistically like in very like the movie. And I love it. But I was like, damn.

It hits. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's part of why it hit in that basement in Indiana. Cause we had sort of just done a show that was not dissimilar to that setting.

Yeah.

Okay. So people are walking out of this show and it's implied that part of the reason, if not the entire reason is that Hedwig is wearing a you know, big exaggerated drag makeup and a big blonde wig. And the people in the crowd are boring, queerphobic, straight people. Hedwig sings a song about the Berlin Wall. We will come to learn that Hedwig was born in Berlin in 1961, the year that the Berlin Wall was erected, and she grew up in East Berlin. And we'll learn more about that in a bit. But first, we get better acquainted with one of Hedwig's bandmates slash her romantic partner, Yitzhak, played by Miriam Shore, who is upset because a famous musician named Tommy Gnosis, played by Michael Pitt, comes on

the TV playing the same song that Hedwig and the Angry Inch just played. We will come to learn that this is a song that Tommy Gnosis stole from Hedwig and then we discover that Hedwig and her band are on tour and they are like following slash stalking the tour that Tommy Gnosis is doing and it seems like and this will be later confirmed that Tommy was a former protege of Hedwig but something happened between them and they had a falling out The band's manager, Phyllis, played by Andrea Martin of Everything.

Oh, big fat Greek wedding. Also an incredible singer in her own right. And so interesting, like musical theater actress. And so interesting that she's in this show and doesn't sing a peep.

Yeah.

Yeah. But anyway, Phyllis tells Hedwig like, hey, maybe stalking Tommy isn't the best idea, especially because you're tangled up in a lawsuit right now. because Hedwig is suing Tommy for stealing her music. Then Hedwig and the Angry Inch play another small show. We get an animated sequence about Hedwig pondering who her other half might be, There's a reference to Plato's Symposium.

Yeah, it's very heady. This is like, God, it makes me wish I had seen this movie when I was 14 because, you know, the Plato of it all would have really been like....

I believe it's an Aristophanes story. I studied philosophy in college.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, it's the Aristophanes two halves where people get split Yeah, in Plato's Symposium, the playwright Aristophanes explains that humans were originally spherical creatures with two faces, four arms, four legs, and then Zeus punished them and split them apart, and so everyone spends their lives seeking out their missing other half. Yeah, it's like the soulmate origin story, that there is really only one true love out there for you.

Right, and... I believe the title of the song is The Origin of Love.

Yes.

Sure is.

And then Hedwig also reveals more about her childhood, that she was raised as a little boy named Hansel by a German mother and an American GI father who eventually left after Hansel's mother kicked him out.

For sexually abusing Hansel.

Yes. Which is, I think, more explicit in the stage version than the movie, but I was... it feels pretty explicit in the movie. Well, it's interesting because in the original reviews of the movie, they're like, it's not explicitly said. I'm like, I, I felt differently, but I was okay. I'm glad that you're on the same page there. Cause I was like, I feel like it was maybe not in actual words, but it is like heavily.

Yeah. Well, visually it's interesting. It is very downplayed. He's sort of, They have clothes on in the bed. It looks like they're sleeping, spooning. But then the mother violently wrenches the father away and, you know, slaps him, punches him and says out, out, out and tries to, you know, kicks him out of the house. So you know what happened.

But we don't see. I think it's a beautiful representation where like we know, but we didn't actually have to see it.

Sure. Yeah. It's all in the mother's reaction.

Yes. Yes.

Right, so we get that bit of backstory, and then we also learn that Hansel spent his childhood... listening to and being influenced by American rock music. Back in the present, the next show that the band does is at a Menzies fair.

Oh, yeah.

Which is so funny.

And no one's at their stage. There's one girl there.

One person. During this performance, Hedwig reveals more of her backstory and which is when she was in her early, late 20s, still living as Hansel, meets an American soldier named Luther, played by Maurice Dean Wint, who takes a liking to Hansel and offers up a bunch of American candy and becomes Hansel's, like, literal sugar daddy.

Yeah, gooby bars.

And then the two of them get together romantically and devise a plan for Luther to more or less smuggle Hansel out of East Berlin to the U.S. So the plan is that Luther will marry Hansel, but same-sex marriage is not legal at this time and place. So Hansel will take his mother's passport and start using her name, Hedwig.

But also Hansel will need to have surgery to remove his penis so that he can pass as a woman. And I hope I'm describing this correctly because Hedwig is trans but more out of legal necessity than identity.

Yes. This was something that I found... We can talk about it more after we're done with the recap, but I was particularly struck by her gender journey this time watching it because I knew I was going to be talking about it. And so I was thinking about, like, you know, I want to have a discussion about her gender, but it's definitely not going to be in the, like, you know, what we would call... proper terminology like i don't even i was thinking like i don't even know if this movie would pass like glad's screening for transphobia sure you know because it's like it's a totally bizarre story that doesn't um yeah i mean i think it sort of runs the risk of being accused of like uh it's not really it's not a detransition story but

it's like it's not the kind of story that makes you think, Oh yeah, like let's support, you know, if you're trying to convince anyone that like trans people deserve rights and that this is something you're, you know, that a lot of people feel like they're born this way. And like, this is not the story that's going to change your mind, you know?

Which I kind of didn't remember exactly. Like my, my vague memory of this movie from when I saw it like 20 years ago, I was like, oh yeah, Hedwig is like, it's not as though Hedwig always identified as a woman and then had like gender affirming surgery.

She transitioned for survival, but not the kind of survival that we usually talk about with trans people being like gender affirming care is like life-saving, you know, it's like it was, it was for right legal purposes. It was like under duress.

Yeah.

Well, it's also like, I, it's so true. Everything I've seen, I mean, I read a lot of analysis of this movie and it's so so polarizing and whether the critic and there's been so many gender non-conforming people and trans critics who have written about this movie whether they're like pro-con or somewhere in the middle the word messy comes up everywhere as a positive or a negative and that's just like inherent to the story because it's like I don't even know I was like struggling with do we talk about Hedwig transitioning or being transitioned because she, like Hedwig doesn't want to transition. Like there's no, we have, there's nothing about Hedwig that we're told Hedwig. It's so, it's so, it's just messy.

Right.

Cause it's like Hedwig, what we know about Hedwig is Hedwig wants to be an androgynous rockstar and Hedwig becomes an androgynous rockstar and And then there's also all this other shit going on. And like, it's just, it's yeah, it's messy.

Exactly. In any case, Hansel has surgery to become Hedwig, but the doctor botches the surgery and leaves Hedwig with, as she describes it, a one inch mound of flesh between her legs, an angry inch, hence the name of the band. And then we cut back to the present and the band performs a song at a show about the Angry Inch. And some of the crowd is horrified. Again, a lot of the people watching these shows are kind of there by accident. And so a brawl breaks out between the band and their fans and the queer phobic audience members.

She's at like a trucker bar at this point or something.

It's like, I'm like, who books this?

Yeah.

Phyllis maybe should be booking different venues. There are, there are queer bars all across the U S. Yeah.

Undoubtedly in the towns, the cities that Tommy Gnosis is stopping in with his huge tour, there is for sure queer bars.

Yeah, it does seem like Phyllis might be operating on some old directories, maybe.

Anyway, we cut back to the flashback where shortly after Hedwig and Luther arrive in the U.S., Luther leaves her for someone else, a young man. And this happens at the same time that the Berlin Wall falls. And Hedwig realizes, oh no, if I had just waited a little bit, I wouldn't have had to have that surgery.

Can I talk about this scene? This scene was like, it's the most heartbreaking, I think.

I totally agree. In the whole movie.

In the whole movie. Because she also doesn't say anything. She's like slumped down in this like market lounger. Yeah. Next to a TV. Just kind of like, she looks, you know, almost dead. And he's standing in the doorway of their trailer. Like, they're living in an RV. He's standing in the door with a twink.

Yeah.

And the twink is carrying his luggage. Like, you know, chases him out of the trailer. Barely, you know, struggling with his luggage. And it's like, oh, he really just wants, like, an assistant. Like, I don't know, you know.

And then.

Right, what you see, so they leave and you're left watching Hedwig, she just like slowly turns her head to the TV that's next to her that's playing the news that the Berlin Wall fell. So she could have stayed in Berlin, she could have not left her mother, she could have not gotten this surgery, you know, and not ended up like completely uprooting and destroying her life somewhat.

Like all of this was for nothing. And it's just, it's done almost entirely in silence. Agreed.

Yeah.

It's just, it's devastating. It's so, and I think I was trying to think of like other, it's also just like such a specific devastation that I've never really seen anywhere else of like Hedwig did everything that was necessary. necessary. But if the timeline had shifted by a year, it would be just a totally different story. And I mean, there's so again, just speaking to and I hope I'm not like, yeah, this movie is such a minefield. But all of the ways that like Hedwig is, there's like distance as Hedwig figures out who they are. That's also a cultural thing, right? It's like, Hedwig is also caught between this German identity and this very American identity that is almost like on this viewing, I was like, oh,

Hedwig is almost like doing American drag as well. Because it's like she's performing this Americanness. She's performing an American rock star, even though when we cut back to Hansel, Hansel is like almost comically German coded. like Gumi bears. And so it's just like, there's, there's all of these different layers to who Hedwig is. And I feel like obviously gender takes literally center stage in this movie, but I was like, Oh, there's also like this big cultural battle that is going on inside of Hedwig as well of like, just where, where am I supposed to be?

Yeah.

Displaced in so many ways.

Yeah.

Right. And I mean, I feel like Luther is also a fascinating character because he, when he approaches Hansel, he seems to think that Hansel is a cis woman. Right. It says like, Hey girl. And then is sort of surprised to see that Hansel has a penis, but that doesn't deter Luther. Luther, who is an American soldier, which is like supposed to be the embodiment of men, like masculinity, but he's clearly queer and, you get the sense that Luther never loved Hansel, more just like fetishized him. Yeah.

So for Hedwig slash Hansel to make this huge sacrifice for someone who didn't even love them is like, so, and so Hedwig is very, very depressed about this. And then what follows is a song that seems to be about like, making the best of this situation, putting on makeup and wearing wigs.

Oh, yeah.

Put on my makeup. Yeah, that's one of my favorites.

Yeah.

It's really good, especially the sing-along bit at the end. It's so campy, too. I love it.

Yeah.

Yeah. So back in the present, the band continues to stalk Tommy Gnosis' Torf. And things are getting tense among the bandmates. Hedwig yells at someone that you can't put a bra in the dryer. It'll warp! And then Hedwig starts to divulge the backstory about Tommy. where Hedwig used to be Tommy's babysitter when she was in her late 20s, and Tommy was 17. Uh-oh, that's something we'll also talk about.

Yeah, well, she was babysitting his baby sibling, who I would imagine is from his dad's new family. He hates his dad. And so Tommy was around, but she wasn't his babysitter. Was my impression.

That makes sense. Even so, he is underage.

It plays into a lot of negative stereotypes around queer people as well.

Like it's just as predatory.

Yeah.

So we'll talk about that. What's happening in the meantime is that Hedwig is like getting back into her love of music. And so she takes Tommy under her wing and Coaches him and teaches him about music and also grooms him both hygienically and predatorially. And they develop a romantic relationship. Although Tommy avoids Hedwig's angry inch until one day they start getting more physically intimate and he dies.

discovers it and freaks out and then Hedwig berates him for not accepting her as she is and then he kind of storms out and they break up back in the present Hedwig's bandmate and partner Yitzhak announces that he's leaving because he got cast in a production of Rent and wants a divorce from Hedwig iconic crossover.

Rent is a recurring theme in this show too yeah.

Yes, it's a motif for sure. And Hedwig is furious and rips up Yitzhak's passport. He's an immigrant from somewhere in Eastern Europe, I think maybe Croatia.

Yitzhak also makes me think Jewish, which, you know, just the German background there is interesting, like the German-Jewish coming together thing. Also confusing gender stuff, because later Yitzhak is... a woman in a dress being like passed around by everybody in a crowd, right? At the end, like towards the end.

Yes.

Wait, I might've missed that.

I thought that was, I thought that was Hedwig.

No.

Did I?

It's Yitzhak.

Oh dear.

Okay.

Right.

So then she rips up his passport and, um, what was I going to say about, oh yeah, that it's like a step too far for a lot of people, including Hedwig. Andrea Martin Phyllis, the tour manager, where they're like, oh, you're like a despicable person. It's like she's crossed a line.

Yeah, Hedwig.

has some anger issues, we'll say. And Phyllis quits. And yeah, things are very tense in the band. And then Hedwig, who has started working as a sex worker, has a brief reunion with Tommy, who again has become a famous musician by stealing Hedwig's songs. they reunite and like sort of reconcile very temporarily, but then paparazzi see them together and take photos that get published in gossip rags about how Tommy was with a trans sex worker, which Tommy denies.

Yeah. He says, well, hold on. Can I insert?

Okay.

So right before that, Tommy pulls up in a limousine to pick up Hedwig while she's working working as a sex worker and she gets in the car and again in silence he takes his album and it says like songs written by tommy gnosis and a sharpie and he puts a little carrot and writes out like by hedwig i don't remember her last name robinson robinson the idea being he's trying to kind of make peace here right and say like you know let's be collaborators again And then through, I actually don't remember what happens, but they end up on kind of a bender, right?

Yes.

Yeah. They're like driving around together and then they crash into each other.

A truck and that's when you know page six their faces their mug shots come up and he says i don't know that woman i've never met her in my life and he's suddenly like swearing her off again yeah um so it's like it's a huge betrayal.

For sure yes but then Hedwig goes on talk shows such as the Rosie O'Donnell show to, which.

I think is pulled from an actual clip of the Rosie O'Donnell show during the off Broadway run prior to this. Cause I read that. Yeah. That Rosie O'Donnell had like the, the production of Hedwig on the show and it like caused a bunch of assholes to be upset about like Hedwig and the angry inch on daytime TV. So I'm, I'm assuming it's a clip from that.

Don't know for sure, but, Either way, Hedwig is talking publicly about her experience, her side of the story, and becomes famous in so doing, and performs a big show. Although at the same time, Hedwig seems to be kind of unraveling. And she rips off her wig and dress. And then this is where things start to become surreal.

So I might need some help with what's going on exactly. But Hedwig goes to watch Tommy perform, but it's not clear if.

I think at this point we're in, like, dream world.

Dream world, yeah.

Yeah.

In this scene, they seem to kind of reconcile again. And then we see Hedwig perform with her band once more. But this time she's doing so dressed kind of as Tommy.

Yeah.

And I had to look this up, but what seems to be going on here is that Hedwig created her other half. So that reference to Plato's Symposium and finding your other half, it's that she created her other half out of herself.

This is also like, there's like a fight club interpretation. Yeah.

That they were the same person the whole time.

Yes. And when I showed this movie to my partner- I had never thought this before, but at the end he was like, so did she die? And I was like, what?

Whoa. Okay.

Wait, now that I think about it, because they wrote the same songs.

Right.

They're on the same tour, more or less.

Yes.

In the same cities. Whoa. I know.

Damn.

I know.

It changes.

That would help resolve some of the messier elements of the movie also.

Well, I'm also now lost in someone's Tumblr synopsis of this, where they're saying that, you know, you said Hedwig looks like Tommy, and it's like, has she been Tommy the whole time? Mm-hmm. And Michael Pitt, to cast Michael Pitt, I mean, he is like an exceptionally kind of androgynous 90s star, you know. He was like in the vein of Leo in that time. I don't want to be mean, but he was kind of like Leo-lite, you know.

Sure.

Yeah, Leo wasn't available. It happens.

Exactly.

Right. That's interesting. I hadn't seen that interpretation and– I mean, there's so many ways to look at this movie. It's like there's a trillion interpretations, but that would make sense of like Hedwig looking at a younger version of themselves and like reconciling with a younger version and like all of the pain and confusion, which is definitely, I think, a nice thing to consider and not that hurt people hurt people, which is like what I think the more surface reading of it ends up. being so tough. I was really surprised. I, I think I was just like so drawn in by the music and the, the vibes on my first viewing all those years ago that, um, I mean, the relationship between Hedwig and, you know, like

it's just so tremendously complicated in a way that, you know, we're so tuned to be rooting for Hedwig. But like Tommy, I'm rooting for Tommy. I feel for him, you know.

Something that also we haven't addressed here is that Tommy is like a really religious Christian.

Yeah.

And so he like, first of all, that's like part of his aesthetic. Like he, she draws the cross on his head. And that becomes, like, his sort of go-to, like, branding.

Very rock star vibe, though. I feel like, yeah, rock stars in Christianity.

Yes. And then he talks about, like, in that scene when he comes home so angry about his dad, he talks about something, I don't remember, but, like, in Christianity that he's, like, sort of trying to, like, justify them being together and, like, Hedwig being the way that she is through this, like, biblical... lens do you remember this.

Eve was made out of adam.

Yes eve was made out of adam right and like why would eve just wanted to know things he says like why would we punish and then right that comes back again later in that moment and hedwig is just like i don't need to explain this in some like godly terms like i just am who i am and she's like love the front of me honey you know that line that's like so crushing But my partner's interpretation of her dying is coming back to me. I think he thought that she died in the car crash.

Interesting.

And so then everything after the car crash.

Everything after that.

I know.

Wow.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, if you think about it, in what world in the early 2000s would an ostensibly trans woman die? shoot up to superstardom in such a queerphobic society at that time. So maybe it is sort of like a post-death fantasy landscape.

Yeah.

I see the vision. Yeah.

Maybe, maybe.

There's just so many.

I know. I also am reading, okay, like this is not what I thought was going on with the Yitzhak thing, but I'm, I wonder who this cute, sweet person writing on Tumblr about this show. Like, who are you? So that Yitzhak is, in fact, a trans woman. And so the beginning of the movie where Miriam Shore is playing a man, that that's someone who wants to transition to be perceived as a woman. So... Yitzhak and Hedwig begin to embrace themselves as they really are. And Yitzhak is allowed to transition to be a woman.

To being a woman.

Yeah, which is so interesting. And also, like, the casting here is... Because I feel like now, if that was... If that is, in fact, the story, now they would cast probably a trans woman who was okay being in drag as a man. Yeah. So that when she, you know... becomes what her true self is, if we're going with this interpretation, that she is actually herself as a trans woman.

Interesting.

Yeah, I wasn't sure what exactly was the intention with the Yitzhak character because it's a cis woman actor. Miriam Shore.

Yes.

Playing a man. So I wasn't sure if we were supposed to interpret Yitzhak as trans masc or if just because gender queerness is already such a prevalent theme in this story. Yeah.

It's like one of the many things that like the 2001 of it all kind of muddles.

Right.

Because I'm like, is it simply just that the filmmakers were like, what if we have a woman play a man? Because why the hell not? And then I found a quote from John Cameron Mitchell talking about him and his co-writer Stephen Trask developing and casting the character of Yitzhak. And so he says, quote, Stephen thought we really needed a female voice. So he suggested, why don't we have a woman playing a man? And then we met Miriam Shore.

There was no question that Miriam was head and shoulders above the rest in the auditions. she had this perfect balance of believable butchness and an incredible voice. Unquote. He goes on to talk about how talented of a vocalist Miriam Shore is, but that's kind of the only thing I found as far as insight about Yitzhak's gender. So I'm leaning more toward The filmmakers just wanted to play around with gender in their casting choices, which I'm here for.

And I like that Yitzhak is very open to interpretation. But yeah, I wasn't entirely sure what the intention is.

And sometimes that's because the answer is there kind of wasn't one.

Shrug. Exactly. Okay. And then what happens at the end of the movie? And then we'll take another quick break and get really fully into the discussion. But as this big show is happening, that Hedwig and the Angry Inch are performing with Hedwig looking like Tommy, Hedwig gives the blonde wig, or a blonde wig, similar to what Hedwig had been wearing.

Passes the crown, so to speak.

Over to Yitzhak. And then the movie ends with another quite surreal moment of Hedwig... More appearing as like Hansel walking naked down the street at night.

Away from us. Yeah.

The end.

Right.

So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break. and then we'll come back and and really dive in and we're back where shall we start Oh boy. Mia, is there, where would you like to begin?

Well, I mean, I touched on it while we were doing the synopsis, but I was really struck this time around by Hedwig's very complicated gender journey that like certainly doesn't follow, you know, any like common trajectory and, you know, turns everything we know on its head about like, and certainly the arguments that are used to like change policy around trans people, like this story might even, um, you know, kind of.

Like things back a bit jeopardize.

Yeah.

But I think it's incredibly necessary because even though this isn't a true story, like things like this have happened. And it's also interesting because there's like, um, you know, there's like conspiracies around like forced transition. And I think this is a really great example of what that could look like that's more likely than any trans person forcing anyone to transition, which is like the sort of conspiracy idea.

Right.

Well, I think what might inform why this gender journey that the character of Hedwig goes on is so messy as many critics have described is the sort of conception of this story where, and I pull, I'm pulling a lot of this from an oral history of this, like the original stage production and then the movie and then the Broadway stage production is, an oral history in Rolling Stone compiled by Jennifer Wood, where many of the key players, including John Cameron Mitchell and Stephen Trask, were interviewed. And so basically what happened here is that these two became friends, John Cameron Mitchell and Stephen Trask, They're hanging out at this place called The Squeeze Box, where Stephen Trask worked

at the time. This was like the early, mid-90s. And John Cameron Mitchell was interested in performing there. But it was a drag club. So Stephen was like, well, I can get you a gig, but you'll have to perform in drag, which John Cameron Mitchell had never done before. So he starts thinking about what this character could be that he creates and what that might look like. And he developed a sense of a character that was loosely based on a babysitter he had from childhood named Helga.

who he later found out was also a sex worker. So Hedwig, the character started to come together from that. And then John Cameron Mitchell was also thinking, okay, well, if it's me performing in drag, how do I explain all of this? How do I explain this Helga like inspired Hedwig character? And so, and I'm just pulling a quick quote here from the Rolling Stone oral history, John Cameron Mitchell said, quote, I started thinking more about the character and the transgender aspect, the sort of castration angle, and the involuntary sex change just came to me, unquote.

So it all just kind of. Happened.

Yeah.

Created like conceptually. And then John Cameron Mitchell and Stephen Trask started working on songs for this Hedwig character to sing. And they started piecing the show together and they would put it up at different small venues around New York City. They would polish it over the course of a few years.

Eventually it gained a bit of a cult following. A film adaptation was in the works and then kind of the rest is history. But that was the creative conception of this character in this story.

Interesting. I mean, that origin story actually like supports the interpretation that Tommy Gnosis and Hedwig are in fact the same person because John Cameron Mitchell was the Tommy character in his own life.

Right.

And then is now playing the babysitter. Right. So that he's both, you.

Know, it's, Something that I, I mean, because I'm so much of this, I just want to talk about it with both of you and continue to read and figure out, because it's just like, it feels like you could be on a journey with this movie forever, kind of. But what I feel very clear on, at least, is that at least a big issue with the conversations around Hedwig is the lack of alternative representation, right? Especially in 2001, there are barely any movies that are centered around gender nonconforming characters. And so for one of the biggest movies centered around a gender nonconforming character to be so messy and...

I totally understand why there's so many critics that have a lot of frustration and resentment towards this movie because there are reads of it that sort of argue that it's catering to queer panic narratives, even though I don't believe it was intended to be that way. but I think it like has everything to do with not even so much John Cameron Mitchell, although there is the argument of like cis gay men, but John Cameron Mitchell's non-binary.

It's all very complicated. All I'm saying is like this movie being the one that is lifted up and that like enters the mainstream canon, I can understand people's frustration with that because there were so few mainstream alternatives about a gender non-conforming character at this time.

Right. And the ones that did exist were completely centered around panic, whether it was like Silence of the Lambs or Psycho or The Crying Game.

But I, I really try not to look at works of art that way personally, because I am an artist and I try to like look at the artist and what they're trying to do. And I think that, you know, like saying to an artist, like, people aren't ready for this conversation or something is like yet another form of censorship personally.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying like the way that the media environment of the time received it versus.

Like, that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that you're saying this. I'm saying like, yeah, that, that critique to me, like I, I generally don't want to look at things that way. Like, because I want to think about like, I'm not saying this is what you're doing, Jamie. I'm saying that, like, people are very eager to critique things that way. And it sounds like what you were reading was, you know, that kind of critique. And I think that there's so much value to this movie. And even though it may, you know, we keep using the word messy. Like, even though it may have, it certainly wasn't like painting a trans woman or a gender nonconforming person. person if we're not so sure like how Hedwig would identify also

like the language at the time was very different like it's not painting her in a good light but she's a it's a depiction of like a real person like a complex person with like a total you know full like interiority as opposed to someone who's like the serial killer like axe murderer total tertiary character Totally.

Right.

And then I think that there's elements of Hedwig that I've seen criticized. And again, I guess I'll just like cite some of the pieces that I'm looking at. We've cited her reviews on the show before. Sally Jane Black did a review that was like addressing her complicated relationship with this movie over time where she got a lot out of it as a younger person and then grew frustrated with it as time went on, which is, valid um and i'm also looking at an i believe it's an auto straddle article or sorry it's in indie magazine botched surgery forced transition and gay fear how hedwig hurt trans representation just to get a feel for what these arguments are one that i i that chafed with me a bit was i guess i like hedwig is lashes

out tremendously at the people in her life in this movie in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. Like, I think sometimes it's like, and we've talked about this on the show before, there is like a resistance to seeing a marginalized character acting out because there's so little representation. When I think at least we're given all the information we need to understand why Hedwig is lashing out in this way.

Traumatic backstory.

The shit this character has been through. Yeah. And that, you know, in the story, like, I guess maybe it's post-car crash death quote. mark in this dream sequence however you choose to see it that hedwig's character is met with understanding and forgiveness by the people that hedwig or hansel or wherever we we land who knows um yeah has hurt in their life and like I guess, yeah, the one criticism that I really kind of was like, well, you know, it's like, well, she's so cruel to her husband. Like, absolutely.

You know, tearing up the passport. Diabolical. But also so obvious why she would do that. She is so pathologically terrified of abandonment because she's been abandoned so many times.

Desperately clinging.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so it's like so much of Hedwig's behavior that it's fair to be critical of, but it's like, in context, it's all there. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And not, it doesn't like excuse the behavior. It's really bad behavior. You know, she like needs help, you know, in many kinds of help, like anger management therapy. I mean, yeah, she, she's, she's not represented as a likable person, which I think is, is interesting as just, just an artistic choice, a dramatic choice to like make the stock. She's sort of the, what do they call that?

Like the aunt, Not the antagonist.

Like an anti-hero.

Yeah, anti-hero.

Right, right.

Like, you don't like her when you're watching them. Like, I'm not like, oh, I want to be her friend. She's so cool. You know, like, I'm like, whoa. Yeah, like, you had a really rough life and you're taking it out on the people around you. I would be scared of you. But it's very, in that way, it's like, you know, it's a picture of a flawed world. And I also think, to look at this in a... To continue with this, like, gendered lens, if her character were a man, you know, these anger issues would read very differently. Like, we see these difficult men. You know, Tony Soprano, the guy from Breaking Bad. Like, we, as audiences... very often we're like so much more forgiving of these like incredibly

difficult men.

For sure.

And we're way harsher critics of difficult women. And I'd say even harsher critics of gender non-conforming people and trans women in particular.

For sure. Women of color.

Women of color.

Absolutely.

Well, going back to the people who maybe in their younger life would watch this movie and appreciate the representation of any woman genderqueer person because again there was so little else and even even though Hedwig as a character is I mean they've got an angry inch and an angry outlook on life personality.

I mean yeah an angry soul yeah.

Yeah but I totally understand audiences admiring and seeing themselves in this character especially because again there were so few genderqueer characters in film at the time and And again, even fewer who were actually characterized as complex, dynamic human beings with backstories and interiority. So even though audiences might not look at Hedwig and think, I want to model my behavior on how Hedwig behaves and treats people, there was still obviously plenty of value in the character of Hedwig from a representation and visibility point of view.

Totally. There's also a ton of gender non-conforming or trans artists who love this movie. And I mean, I like this. I was reading through just like my personal, this is my sample size, but like Vera Drew really, really enjoys this movie. A writer I love very much, Harmony Colangelo makes a strong case for sort of what we were talking about earlier, where this, Like the issue here is the lack of other representation versus Hedwig being someone to culturally vilify. And I think that, I mean, in that way, it again sort of feels very in conversation with Rocky Horror, where there's, I think we see very similar narratives around people who are, and especially queer people who are still figuring out like who they are. being really drawn to

Rocky Horror as a young person, especially the closer to it coming out, because that was what there was. That was as close as you could get in a mainstream sense in a suburb or whatever at Blockbuster to finding a story about a gender nonconforming character, even if that story is extremely messy.

It doesn't like Frankenfurter kill people.

Sure does. Sure does.

And I think, doesn't he call him, or she call, they call themselves a transvestite.

Yeah, like using outdated language.

Right, right.

But it was also made in the 70s.

And also, not for nothing, both of what these movies also have in common that I think make people very forgiving of the trickier elements are great soundtracks. Great soundtrack.

Great costumes.

Yeah. Great performances.

Absurdity.

Fun camp.

Yeah, totally.

I'm also thinking about the ways that like, as the culture changes and the language changes, the critique sometimes, like, comes with the language. Like, for example, you know, someone like Gertrude Stein, totally gender nonconforming person, but there wasn't, like, language for that at the time. And so, you know, transphobes now are not, like, hating on Gertrude Stein. because in all the history books like she's talked about as a woman right you know whereas like with this i mean i could even see had hedwig come out or something like this story at an earlier time we wouldn't be talking about her as a trans woman we would be talking about her as like a man who was forced into this because of the politics at the time

for safety and And it would just be like a very, very different story. But this was the 90s and the gender, you know, gender bending was like the terminology in the 90s. And like this was a very gender bendy story. But I'm also, you know, as I watched it this time was really struck by the fact that as far as we know, there's not a single actually trans person. or gender non-conforming person in the cast. Like Miriam Shore.

Well, John Cameron Mitchell uses he, him pronouns still, but. He said he prefers the term androgynous.

Uh-huh.

But I don't know if he would have identified that way back in 2001 when the movie was coming out because he came out as androgynous in, I think, 2022. Yeah.

Yeah. My guess is that he would have identified as a gay man.

As a gay man.

Right.

Which is, again, like a lot of similarities with Rocky Horror where it's like a story of a gender nonconforming character who... you know, at the time, or at least it would have appeared at the time as being told from a cis POV. Yeah. I think again and again, I just come back to like, I, I do understand the criticisms around, especially like the idea of like this very traumatic transition that is inherent to this story. But I can, you know, I see very much the point of view of gender nonconforming and trans viewers being like, okay, well, this is getting like this tremendous platform and stories about trans people just existing in the world. I mean, very much just don't exist in 2001 for sure. So it

is like a very specific cultural moment, but that's, again, that's, that's not on John Cameron Mitchell. And I do want to point out that three first names is kind of.

It's always a red flag.

It's kind of the ultimate red flag. I've, I'm troubled by people with two first names, but three is just ridiculous.

What about people with last names as first names?

Oh, I think that that's kind of charming. I don't know why.

Like a man named Smith or something.

Yeah.

I knew a kid in high school named Newman. Like his first name was Newman.

Or like a Parker. Kind of fun.

Sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I, of course, everyone's allowed to have their opinion and their critique. And I just, in my life, in the last, I don't know, five, six years, like as an an artist and like really coming into that part of my own identity. Like I've noticed that like the less I critique and judge and like look with this, you know, microscope for like what I can say is wrong about something, the less I think people are doing that to me. So I've just tried to be in the practice and my partner is really good at this, like being in the practice of like really looking more for what I like and appreciate than what I can you know, shit on. And again, Jamie, like, I don't think you're doing this, but I've just, when we're talking

about the critique that's out there, I think there's any number of, of counterpoints to it, which is like, yeah, there, um, you know, one for me is like, yes, there was not a lot of media about centering gender nonconforming and trans people at the time, but this, this movie showed that there is a market for that, that there is an audience for that. And that it may be kind of cult-ish, but like this was a pretty successful, you know, given its, like, budget. Like, it was a small movie.

It didn't cost a lot to make. And it has left such an impression.

It's in the Criterion Collection. Exactly.

Exactly. So, like, yeah, there's problems with the representation and everything. and the story itself and it could bring up, I get why it would even be triggering to people and why people would feel like this is not the conversation that we want to be having about transness, but it has made so much room for deeper, more complex conversations and shown that there are people who are going to want to, you know, consume that kind of art, which I think is like, that is revolutionary.

For sure. Yeah. I, I agree because as we talk about on the show all the time, um, There are movies that we sort of classify as like stepping stone movies. Yes, totally. That like pave the way for more nuanced representations. And this movie feels like one such example. The thing about this movie that I struggled with more was the predatory nature, the big age gap between Hedwig and Tommy and that being presented without... comment or criticism.

Do we, you said he was 17. Do we know that he's 17?

It's said in text.

It is.

Okay. Hedwig says it like I met him. I met him when he was 17 and I was in my, I think early, late twenties, I think like 26 or 27 or something. Yeah.

Yeah.

A decade over. Yeah. Yeah.

So he is under age and their first meeting is Hedwig's Not asking for consent and assaulting him in the bathtub.

Well, I just want to paint a broad, like a more clear picture.

Sure.

Hedwig is in the other room. We're watching Tommy Gnosis in the bathtub, watching Hedwig pacing back and forth with the baby, jerking off. Hedwig comes in. finishes him off and drops her card in the bathtub. You know, this isn't meant to make it like any less bad. It's just there, there's a broader, I think as in she's noticing that there's perhaps desire for her. Obviously it's statutory rape regardless, but he's jerking off like looking at her.

Fair.

That does not equal him giving consent. to Hedwig touching him. Although he doesn't like.

He doesn't ask her to stop and doesn't say no.

Yeah.

So it's, it's murky. It's another messy thing, but even so, as we said, it's a statutory situation. And that, again, that's just presented as perfectly fine and normal. Right.

Which to me felt more, I mean, I think that the, the clear outside of just like that is, uh, not a good dynamic regardless of what the, like of the people involved, but that like, it does present sort of another queer panic archetype. I also feel, and this is not, I mean, I think we are all kind of on the same page here about it. I think that viewed from the lens of the androgynous rock star, this was incredibly common to see. I mean, like look at David Bowie's personal history too, is like there is, And in a way that, like, I'm not even, like, giving the movie a pass, like, certainly not, but because I don't think that this, that Hedwig, like, thematically really ends up doing very much with examining this, but, like, the idea

of a rock star, or even someone with a rock star persona, regardless of gender, preying on teenagers, I mean, there is just, like, that is the history of rock stars.

Unfortunately, yeah.

But I don't think that the movie is really commenting on that as much as just presenting Hedwig in that legacy is the wrong word, but in that pattern of, because I was trying to like, it's so, because this movie is just so open to a million interpretations that I like in a scene like that, it's like, there's all of the ways consent is not given. It's extremely murky.

And it's like, well, what is, what is this scene like trying to say is kind of a fun exercise in Because I think that there's a way of seeing it that is clearly interpreted as presenting a queer panic moment. And there's a way of looking at it that is like Hedwig doing the thing that rock stars do by preying on someone underage.

And then it's framed comedically with like the button on the end of the scene of like throwing a card at him. So, yeah, that that relationship, I struggled.

Yeah, she's also, like, she's in, like, a mothering role with him, a mentoring role with him creatively. Yeah, she totally grooms him. And the power dynamic where, like, she's the babysitter. I mean, it's just incredibly messy. It's also, in this movie, the way that, like, Hedwig is not a likable character, and yet she has this villain of Tommy, where, like, she's, you know, she's been also acting in a way that's, like, not okay towards Tommy, right?

Yeah, I mean, I don't view, as I was watching this, I was surprised and challenged by how, I don't view, I mean, I don't view Tommy as a villain. I mean, I think I understand why Hedwig does because the creative theft is pretty fucking unforgivable and also, you know, his manifesting kind of her worst fear by denying her publicly.

and denying both who she is as a person and denying her artistic influence on his life, both of which she, I mean, she, Hedwig's whole thing, understandably, is that Hedwig wants to be loved completely and has never been loved completely. And I guess part of what I view the end scene and the removing the clothes and the wig and all that stuff is like Hedwig choosing to fully embody and love themselves because no one is going to do it for you kind of thing. But with Tommy, I, I, I have tremendous sympathy for him because it's like, think about like how, and I think that the movie, even though Hedwig sees Tommy as her op, I don't think the movie sees him that way in a way that I appreciate it because like Tommy is, you know, a

very Christian sheltered teenager who, is put into this very... Hedwig has the power in that relationship. Right. And it doesn't seem like Tommy has other people in his life he can turn to. So there's also this... And that's not Hedwig's fault, but Hedwig becomes Tommy's lover and it seems like guardian and creative steward. Teacher, yeah. So it's just like... it's, it's hard to look at Tommy and be like, well, fuck him. He sucks. Like he does something shitty that feels very in step with the time this movie was made in. And I think like, I don't know, I guess I, my reading of the movies, I don't think that the ending, whatever happens at the end, whether it's like, I guess we're getting into Titanic territory now.

Is it a dream or does she die? Either way? I don't think it happens. I think that like, wherever Tommy ends up, I don't think we really know. I think that like, this is Hedwig's internal battle to just reconcile with the people who she's hurt and been hurt by so that she can move on.

Yeah.

I think that Tommy from like a, you know, story writing structural standpoint, like for drama to give Hedwig like a sort of frenemy, like rival. Yeah. you know, it creates drama, it creates tension, but I completely agree with you, Jamie. Like I don't see him as he's, you know, he's a kid. Yeah.

He's, um, he's a survivor of grooming.

Right. And he like is then launched into stardom, which so many people think is like so covetable and enviable. Like how could you ever complain about that? But it's incredibly isolating. It's incredibly, it can be terrifying and, You have eyes on you all the time.

He has religious trauma. And I also think that if you're putting yourself in Tommy's headspace, the creative theft is not the most unforgivable thing that happens in the movie to me. And I think in some ways, there's a way to view it that it's like Tommy is... can be viewed as, and has been viewed in certain readings as a victim. And like, this is maybe his way of sort of getting back at Hedwig by, I don't know.

I mean, there's, there's so many ways to look at it.

Indeed.

Any, anything, anything else you want to talk about? I mean, we could talk about this movie for a hundred years. Um, yeah, I know that was all of my, uh, those were all my big, my big things.

Yeah, I think we've covered mine as well.

Yeah, I think me too. I mean, I really do love this movie and in all of its flawed glory, you know, I think it shows us so many different perspectives and like watching a kind of torture, two different kinds of like tortured artists figure out how to make their way in the world given all these like the things that shape them.

And again, this movie is a like stepping stone. yeah movie is is really important and again like paved the way for later representation of genderqueer.

Characters yeah it'd be interesting to see like a remake of this movie and how they would go about it yeah i.

Wonder yeah well uh does this movie pass the Bechdel test you know I.

Was wondering like how because it depends on how we view the genders of these people you know right like if Hedwig is always actually Hansel in there.

Well I also think like because the version we use and I'm like it feels so silly to get pedantic about the Bechdel test like who cares but you know Hedwig is I think like undeniably a gender non-conforming character and so for me i'm like gender non-conforming character like it's two people of a marginalized gender talking to each other about something that's not a man so i think it passes.

Yeah and yitzhak as well regardless of how we view their gender like it's definitely non-conforming right yeah.

So i would say yes yes yeah passing yeah yeah and then comes the bechdel cast nipple scale where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I think because of this movie's legacy as a piece of queer cinema that, again, paved the way for later representation that's perhaps less potentially problematic.

But again, this is the nature of so many of these films. movies of like a stepping stone nature is that there's plenty of things to criticize about them but they're also sort of ahead of their time as far as especially like mainstream representation goes so i say taking that into consideration i'll give it like three or two and a half i do feel like It needs to be docked pretty significantly because of the predatory grooming relationship with an underage character that is presented without comment or criticism.

I'll go two and a half. This is a tricky one, but yeah, two and a half. And I'm going to give them two. One to Andrea Martin.

One to.

Miriam Shore. And then I'll give my half nipple to John Cameron Mitchell.

Um, I think I'll, I'll go right down the middle to, uh, due to mess, uh, just due to mess. But I think like there, it's undeniable that this movie is tremendously influential, uh, is still like a quarter century later starting a lot of conversations and also paved the way for a lot of filmmakers and a lot of movies. And the soundtrack goes fucking nuts. So that's sort of all I have to say on the matter. I'll go two and a half as well. And I'm going to give two to John Cameron Mitchell. I do think he is a genius.

And I'll give the other half to Steven Trask, another queer icon who is not on screen, but a great writer. And also a non-binary person who generally uses he, him pronouns. Got it.

I don't know how it works to give certain people the nipple.

It's just us. If you want to pay tribute to something or someone in the movie.

Yeah.

Don't overthink it.

Yeah, it's interesting to me that, like, Caitlin, you feel like there's no critique of the relationship being underage. Because I feel like that's in there, even though it's not, like, directly spoken to.

I mean, in something as serious as a predatory relationship with an underage person... I feel like there almost needs to be pretty explicit condemnation of that by someone in the story.

I guess I guess where I maybe this is. Well, let me know what you think. Like, I think that. for me, like I, I'm not, I, I think it's interesting that because we're so with Hedwig, the whole movie, and we see whether it's in Hedwig's head or not, everyone forgives Hedwig for what, for what people do to Hedwig, but Hedwig doesn't really make amends with people for the numerous shitty things that Hedwig does. And again, it's like, I think that that, that people's mileage will just vary on that.

Yeah. Um, well, I guess, I mean, I think this movie gets docked because it doesn't address, well, it's almost exclusively white people. The only person of color in the story is.

Luther.

Hedwig's husband.

And then there's, like, the Korean backing band that.

Hedwig works with.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're so good.

They're great, but... Barely there.

They're in one scene. We don't really know anything about these characters. Right. And then they disappear from the story.

Yeah, and it's almost like a joke that he's backed by this, like, Korean girl group. And then, you know, the casting of her husband as... black feels more like colorblind casting to me than some, like an intentional, like it wasn't written with that in mind. Um, so for me that the movie definitely gets docked for that. It also like, you know, just doesn't really, yeah. Like intersectionality it's, there's no like discussion of, yeah. I mean any, anything else, like there's some class stuff and I don't think every movie needs to hold all of these, but, um, but it's.

Not, But there was potentially room for things.

That don't appear. So, I don't know. I want to give it a three, I guess, just because I think it opened doors and really, like, blasted down walls for.

The way the Berlin Wall fell.

That's right. It tore down walls. For gender nonconforming people and for stories and, you know, not just, like, in the story itself, but, like, as a film... in that moment of time, it, it really paved the way for like so much of the media that we've had since that can tackle these themes more deeply as a result.

So that's where I, yeah, that's.

Where I land.

Nice.

Hell yeah.

Well, thank you so much for joining us.

Oh, thank you for having me.

This was so much fun.

Yeah. Where can people follow your work, buy your book, et cetera?

Yeah.

Um, I am on Instagram at consent.wizardry, though I'm considering changing it to just my name. So if you can't find me there, you can just search my name. My website is consentwizardry.com. I'm on Substack as unsolicited advice. You can also search my name. And Consent Wizardry will take you there as well. And I teach classes for... people pleasers for artists for um people who want to learn to teach consent uh and my book is available like pretty much everywhere books are sold but you can also get it specifically through the North Atlantic Books website which I would recommend um you know very preferable to Amazon or like a giant chain yes how to do consent without sounding like a robot it'll be out September 15th Yay.

Congratulations.

That's really exciting.

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Indeed. Of course.

And you can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast and you can support the show by signing up for our Patreon, aka Matreon, at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, where we release two bonus episodes every single month on... an amazing genius theme. Matrons get voting rights to pick which movies we cover and all that good stuff. It's all for $ 5 a month.

And what a damn good special that is.

So true.

I think.

I think so.

Yeah.

Never changed. Never changed. And with that, let's strip naked and walk into the abyss or heaven question mark.

Or heaven. Hmm. Towards the light.

Bye. Bye. The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus.

And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichterman.

And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them?

That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus.

Ever heard of her? Oh, my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

Iconic. And a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com.

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