Why 70% of the Mental Load Still Falls on Mom When Raising a Family featuring Sam Kelly

0:02 Welcome to the Dad Edge podcast. The Dad Edge movement creates leaders of men. Leaders of families and leaders of communities. We will not only impact this generation of fathers, but the next generation as well. The kids we are raising will have better chances and odds stacked in their favor because of the amazing example that their fathers emulated for them.

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1:02 Sam Kelly, welcome to data. I've been excited, excited, excited to have this conversation. Welcome here. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I am too I am too. I'm really excited to talk about this topic. It's going to be raw. It's going to be real. It's not going to be bubble wrapped. But you shared something with me before we hit record.

1:22 And man, I was so honored to hear it. And to be quite honest with you, I was really surprised to hear it. But I want you to share what that was. Yeah. So this is my first time I've done a lot of podcasts. This is my first time doing a podcast with a man on the other side. That's wild. How many podcasts have you done? I don't know, but also I'm like, is it wild? To me? That doesn't feel surprising at all. Unfortunately, because of the nature of what I talk about, it can be triggering for a lot of men. It can feel difficult to sit with. And I think some defenses can come up. So I, I'm so glad that you were open to having this conversation, because I think it's a really, really important conversation that everyone needs to hear.

2:15 I agree. You know, a different question for you to just to kind of build on that a little bit. How how many followers do you have on social media platforms combined, like so Instagram, Facebook X, YouTube, all that. Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah, I mean I primarily just on Instagram threads a little bit. I like 252 60 K.

2:39 Okay. So the reason I asked that for that number is because I would imagine your topics are pretty polarizing sometimes. Do you get a lot of hate comments? When I have content go viral? Yes. Yeah. And what's really it's, it's just like, the only thing I can say is, like, just another day being a woman on the internet, because the ugliness that comes in is by far and away from men.

3:10 And the things they say are just, like, so horrific. But it's primarily only when I have a piece of content that gets, like, millions of views. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to ask you about that after I introduce you here to the audience, because now the audience is like, what? Who is this woman? What are we talking about?

3:29 Like, this is wild. Right, right. But, But you know what? Before I before I read your bio to the to the to the audience here, I'll tell you, it's, I heard this, this quote in this, you know, this statement a long time ago that if you're not getting even, just a little bit of hate, you're you're not pushing the envelope hard enough.

3:49 If you have nothing but raving fans, then, you know, you're obviously your message isn't getting through. So I've I've been in, you know, this space for, gosh, 15 years now and been podcasting and for for 11. So I feel you on that. But you ready for your bio? I'm ready. Let's do it. All right. So first of all, Sam Kelly I want to welcome you here.

4:12 I've I've want to start this conversation with something that really, really jumped out with me about your work. And that is you spent years doing what I would say most moms do, keeping what felt like 100 or maybe even thousands sometimes of mental tabs open at the same time. Who needs to be where? What needs to be clean?

4:34 What needs to be bought? What needs to be scheduled? What the kids forgot? What do I know? That one with four boys, like, tell you that, what your husband might need to know. And meanwhile, everyone else in the house is basically waiting for instructions. So I love how transparent you've been, because that's what life really looked like to you.

4:54 Look like for you. Rage cleaning, resentment, exhaustion, and what I would what you would occasionally call the mom meltdown. But what I really find interesting about your story is you didn't just decide your family needed to help more, you realize there was actually a much bigger problem. You spent more than a year working with your husband on sharing the mental load, not waiting for instructions.

5:20 And then one day you realized, hold on. Wait a second. I'm teaching my kids to wait for instructions. I'm making more chore charts. I'm reminding them I'm following up. I'm managing whether the thing actually got done. And that realization eventually came to what you call notice. And do not teaching your kids how to complete a task, but teaching them how to actually notice what needs to be done, take ownership of it, and do it without someone constantly managing them.

5:52 What I really what really hit home for me with what you do is dad's listening today. There's a question that I think we all need to ask ourselves, and that is, are we actually carrying the mental load alongside of our wives, or are we really just cooperative employees waiting for the next assignment ourselves? You have a master's degree in art therapy counseling.

6:15 You've actually taught at the university level. You're a mom of three. You're the creator of Little Cycle Breakers, and your work has been featured on Good Morning America, Business Insider, motherly, upwardly, and many, many more. And now you've taken everything you've learned personally, professionally, and through working with thousands of families. You put all this work into your brand new book, which is Notice and Do Raise Capable Kids and Motherhood burnout and lighten your Mental load.

6:44 Love that title, by the way. Today we're going to get into talking about how we can raise our kids to be capable. Learned helplessness. That's something I really want to talk about. The invisible mental load inside of our homes, what dads might be completely missing, and how we can create families where everyone notices, everybody contributes, and mom doesn't have to be the CEO, the project manager, the quality control department for the entire freaking household.

7:11 So, Sam Kelly, welcome here. I just need to, like, have you come with me on every podcast episode now and just read that every time? Oh my God. Well, it's, you know, it's it's it's a long bio, but like, I really think it illustrates, how deep you've gone into this work, which I truly love. Like, I feel like we're really talking to an expert here and not just an expert on the topic, but someone who's lived this.

7:35 So just getting back to that first question of, you know, just what what are some of the topics that you've, you've shared on, like whether it's been reals or posts on social media where it's been really triggering for people? The stuff that where I talk about, the partner side of things, because most of my account is focused on, teaching children. And that's very intentional because that's like kind of been a gap, right? That I've noticed that has not been addressed yet in terms of speaking about the mental, because lots of people talk about or and are beginning to talk about more and more, mental load and, disparity of labor as it relates to the two adults in the household.

8:29 And that is amazing. And a huge piece of it. But what I say is the mental load is a whole family issue, and whole family issues require whole family solutions, and kids are just as much a part of the family as the adult. So, with the understanding that most of my content is kid specific, every now and then I will speak to the partner side of things.

8:53 And when a piece of content gets a lot of traction and it's calling out men or even just sharing my experience, that it can just bring up a lot, a lot for a lot of men. And they are not shy about telling me about their feelings about it. So that's that's primarily where that comes from. Got it. Okay. So, what have you found that are the topics specifically that have been most triggering for us dads? Oh, saying things like there is a gap in, self-development that oftentimes women have to bridge for men because women do a lot of, like, we're the ones reading the self-help books by far and away.

9:48 We're going to therapy. We're always trying to, like, heal, like our inner wounds and like our triggers so we can show up as a more grounded, safe parent for our kids. And while we're over here, busy doing all this work, lots of times men aren't or they aren't to the degree that we are. And so then when we start trying to talk to them about things like, hey, like seeing something as simple like, hey, I need you to, take initiative.

10:18 I would love to not have to give you a list. I would love for you to just see for yourself what needs to happen, do it, and then, like, talk to me about it so we can communicate. And, their defenses come up and they like, you know, and then and then women have to do the emotional labor of navigating those defenses.

10:37 So even just like that small bit of the conversation, if I share a piece of that online and this is not like an experience that's unique to me as a woman creator. Any of my peers in this space who are women? I mean, like, the stories are wild, like, this is just we all just kind of have this common understanding, like, this is just what it is to be a woman creator speaking about these issues.

11:03 And this is just it just comes with the territory. As awful as that is. But this is like why we're doing what we're doing in large part, because there's a lot that needs to change and there's a lot of progress that has been made. Yes, but there's still a long ways to go. Gents, have you been thinking about joining the Data Alliance?

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12:59 Head on over to the edge.com/join. This is only for the month of October. Don't wait for your marriage, fatherhood or life to change. Lead the change again. The data edge.com/join for the month of October for all these goodies and advance copy of my new book. Yeah, I mean I can I can understand where, you know, no one let me let me get your, your perspective on what I'm about to say.

13:29 No one ever teaches us how to be married. You know what I mean? Like, you have a master's degree in in art therapy, correct? Right. Yeah. So, like, I don't know anything about that, right? In fact, my, my, my wife is, like, really artistic. Like, she can draw anything. And it looks like it was professionally done, you know, and I can't like I am absolutely horrific at that, but I never really got into art.

14:00 I was more like the science guy, you know? And, my, my wife, like, drew this, like, really cool board for my 18 year olds graduation. He went to University of Arkansas. So she drew, like, this really cool face of a Razorback that was like unbelievable. And we were we were out on a day date one day, and she was showing me that she showed me a picture of the board and she was going to surprise her son with it.

14:23 And I was like, God bless. I was like, you were so freaking talented. I was like, you want to do something really funny right now? And she's like, yeah. I was like, hold that picture up. You know, make sure the screen doesn't go dark. I'm going to try to draw this, you know, the best way I can just by looking at how you drew it.

14:37 And it literally looked like a kindergartner did it. And we showed our kids. We were like, look what mom, drew and dad tried to draw the same. And they're like, oh my gosh, that's hilarious. Like, but I don't know anything about that. And I just wrote a book not too long ago called The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood. And part one of the parts in the book is is marriage.

14:57 Do you know that people spend about 1500 couples, spend 1500 hours on average, preparing for the wedding day, and only about three hours preparing for the marriage? Well, I mean, that makes sense. Yeah, it's a huge mess. But, like, I think a lot of people, we don't know how to do this. Like, you know, our dads never pulled, you know, little boys aside and was like, hey, here's how you notice and do this is what mental load is.

15:24 This is what this is what invisible labor is, you know, and and some of the things that are unsaid can kind of build the biggest resentments in relationships. Like we're not talking this stuff like, what do you think about that? Yeah, I didn't see interesting because women also are not taught. Right. You know, like nobody pulled me aside as a little girl and said, hey, FYI, as a girl and eventually a woman, and maybe one day a wife.

15:52 Culturally and societally, you are going to be expected to carry the vast majority of your family's invisible labor on your shoulders and your shoulders alone, like, never got that conversation. And so as a woman, it's like, we didn't expect this. We didn't ask for this. We weren't prepared for this. And yet here we are. And, we've just been expected to figure it out and to do it.

16:22 Because if we don't do it, who's going to do it? That's like the message, right? And that's like the lived reality experience for so many women. So while we also weren't taught, we were still expected to. And that's what I call like, I have a piece of content where I call out, the mental privilege of men like men weren't taught, and they're also not expected.

16:52 Women weren't taught, but we're still expected. And so there's like a gap there in understanding, and so when men say like, oh, my brain doesn't work the same as yours, or I just don't see these things that you see, it's not that they are incapable, it's just that they haven't been expected to do it in the same way that we have.

17:15 I mean, and I could talk a lot more about that, but that's that's what I would say to that is like we also weren't taught, but the cultural conditioning is so different for men and women. And that is what a huge, huge underpinning of my book, Notice and Do is about is how can we look at the root of the problem instead of like, Band-Aid solutions?

17:39 How can we really see what is actually going on here and then teach our kids, both our daughters and our sons, a different, better way? So this situation that we're in that is hard for women and it's hard for men. Like it was not fun for my husband to be on the other end of this situation in different ways.

17:59 And so this is not a cakewalk for anyone. And there's a better way. And if we can teach our kids a better way and give them the language around these concepts, around like teaching, you know, like, what does it look like to teach, a five year old about the mental load? What does it look like to teach a five year old, 11 year old teenager, whatever about societal expectations for men and women and families, what burnout means, and why it's important to work together as a family team.

18:30 So this cycle and this experience ends with this generation, it makes a lot of sense. Starting them out young, I think, is so important. You have you have three kids, 14, 12 and nine. What are the mix of genders? Girl girl boy. Okay, okay. Girl girl boy. Okay. Let me ask you a question that I, I, I don't think you're prepared for this, but of course, you don't know any of my questions that you're prepared for.

18:59 These are really organic conversations. One thing I've noticed, I've been coaching men and even women and couples in marriage for almost the past decade. Men can definitely do a better job when it comes to being observant of the things that need to be done. You know, like the things like invisible labor, like the the laundry baskets in the master bedroom, you know, that haven't been folded yet.

19:26 You know, the the laundry piling up that isn't yours. Right? The dishes that are in the same, the, the crumbs on the floor, like that kind of thing. I also think going back to what you're talking about, women I don't think are taught how to approach a man. And I love your term of like rage cleaning and resentment and really getting like pissed off about it.

19:50 Right? But the thing that I've noticed, like, it's this really sinister symptom that a man isn't being observant, but then the rage cleaning and the resentment happens, and then the woman, like, completely lashes out and just attacks. Right. And I don't think that that's right either. And what I would love for you to address is, you know, how can women approach this where it's more of a positive interaction versus like, I'm just going to come down on you because I'm so freaking pissed that you didn't see this, you didn't realize this, I'm doing all this work.

20:26 And then it just comes out as just this huge lash out. Yeah. Okay, so there's a lot to unpack here. First of all, viewing it as an attack. That's if I can be totally honest, that is more about how you like if this was a conversation between me and you. Right. And we're in a partnership and if you say, why are you attacking me?

20:51 That's making it about you and your experience of it. Because for women, when we're in that situation and the rage that finally bubbles up, that's like the aftermath of so many years of resentment that we're just shoving down just so we can keep going because society tells women, no, no, no, no no, don't be angry. Don't be angry.

21:15 Just keep shoving it down. Keep shoving it down. It's fine, it's fine, it's fine. Be grateful. This is what this season is. All these things that we tell ourselves. Because it's not acceptable for women to be angry. So we shove it down, shove down, shove it down. And then there's a seemingly really small thing that happens, right? That like straw that breaks the camel's back and that comes out as the rage or the rage cleaning or what is perceived as an attack.

21:38 What that actually is, is that is desperation. A woman's anger in that situation is desperation. We're desperate to be seen. It's like shooting off an SLS flare. We're desperate to be seen. We're desperate to be heard. We're desperate for someone to just believe us. That this experience that we're having is like, we're drowning. And and then when we, like, bubble over, instead of having our partner say, oh my gosh, you're bleeding, you have this open wound.

22:14 Clearly, that's what I'm seeing this as I'm seeing this as you are bleeding. And because you wouldn't be falling apart this way if it wasn't this, like, deep of a wound. And and so then when we're drowning, instead of our partner jumping in and being like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. And look underneath the tone, instead of focusing on the tone and or like the volume or how it's coming out, look underneath the tone because the pain underneath is so real and so valid and be like, hey, I see you.

22:54 Let me, let me come in and I'm going to give you like a flotation device and I'm going to pull you out together right now in stead of being like, why are you attacking me? Could you just say it nicer? Does that make sense? It does. I'm going to challenge you a little bit. And I mean, I, I'm coming from a good place.

23:18 I'm coming from a place of of understanding. So I wholeheartedly understand that I, I've known my wife for 30 years. We've been together. We've been married for 23. We've been through this. And I do understand that because we're on the other side of it. Let's put this in a perspective of a man, okay. And let's give it a different situation.

23:40 I would say the there's there's a good majority of guys out there that aren't getting their physical needs met. Right. And they're not getting the physical affection that they want. They're not getting the sex that they want. And I realize these things are it's like the chicken or the egg, you know, if a woman doesn't feel seen, heard and safe, those are the three needs, you know, in a relationship.

24:00 She's definitely not going to want to be physically affection with her, with her husband. But there are a lot of men out there that are not getting their physical needs met. And we are told, well, that's marriage. Well, that's what happens over time. And shove it down. Shove it down. Don't don't talk about it. Don't. But we get up to the point where.

24:21 And almost all my one on one clients have been through this. We're finally just like, why are we not being intimate? Like, I don't understand this. Like, why can't we be physically affectionate with each other? And they go on the rage and on the attack? And then the woman, in my experience, hardly ever takes that as well. You're you're obviously experiencing something really, really bad here.

24:48 Like, you're, you're experiencing some things that are really tough for you. The woman usually makes it about her and she will be like, well, you're not doing this and you're not doing that. And she'll go automatically on the defensive. So while cognitive mental load and visible labor and people, not men in particular, are not noticing things, when they feel attacked and it becomes about them, I see women doing the same thing, but a different situation.

25:17 And I would just love for you to comment on that. I don't feel like. I, I don't there's full like transparency. There's just a lot of layers to this. And. Like I'll say that I don't feel like women, even in a marriage, owe their partner sex. And I'm not going to say that like, men like, I really hate the idea of like, chor play quote unquote the like we're going to participate like, men like, should be motivated to participate in the House because then they can get more sex from their wife or have more physical intimacy from their wife, like you should be participating in, like, the life work of the life you've created with your partner, purely because that's like it's your life and it shouldn't have to be like, well, I'm going to do this, so then I can have more sex.

26:24 That will can that happen sometimes? Sure. But that in my opinion, that should not be the reason. Sure, I agree. So I guess I'm not really sure what your question is like. Is good communication on both sides important? Yes. Is a high level of emotional intelligence on both sides important, yes. And is there room for both a man and a woman to be seen and validated for their specific experiences in the relationship?

26:56 Yes. Like in a healthy relationship, there's a chance for everyone to be seen and everyone to be appreciated. And that is the goal. But when we're talking about, this like specific situation here of a woman coming to a man because I feel like it's like, let's just go like a little bit more micro instead of macro. Sure.

27:19 Of a woman's coming to a man and saying, hey, I'm on the short end of the stick here. Because objectively, women are historically and currently women still carry 70% statistically of the home and family's cognitive labor. And not only is that the reality, but it also is how we were raised. It's we've watched our moms do this. They've watched their moms doing and on and on on back through the generations.

27:49 And it's in our culture everywhere. It's in our media everywhere. So it's become normalized for us. So for so many women, like they don't even have the language around this yet. They just know that, like, they're pissed and something's not right. We shove it down and we're exhausted and we're drowning. And even for a woman, just being able to have the words to describe her own experience feels like the biggest exhale.

28:16 Because we don't know what we don't know. We're just going through the motions of everything that we're told we should do and should be in order to be a quote unquote good mom and wife. So then when we kind of start to wake up to what is actually happening and the whole system that supports this and perpetuates our burnout, and then we come to our husband about it.

28:37 And then we're told, you're attacking me. What's going on? It's like, not only are women having to lived experience of being on the short end of the stick in this situation, but then we're also having to what feels like I have so many women tell me, I just can't. Let's not my responsibility. And it's exhausting to have to gentle parent my partner, my husband, an adult man on this.

29:03 And that was my experience to like. I told him like so many times, like I should not have to be your life coach here, but here we are. And so the brunt of the emotional labor of the work, of having to educate men on this falls on the woman's shoulders as well. So, so many women just keep going because it's like, I know I'm being crushed.

29:28 But the thought of having to get my husband on board, navigate his defenses, get him to just like put his like the whole like you're attacking thing aside for just one minute to just see me and just be like, hey, I got you. Let's do this. You may not have said it perfect to Lee to me, but I get that the rage is real and it makes sense.

29:51 I would feel that way too, if I were you. Yeah. And then like. So that is not so many women's experience. That's like a mom's wildest fantasy as to how their partner say that to them. So it just feels like too hard. It's too hard to fix it. And so we're just going to keep going. Yeah. And that's what like to get back to notice and do.

30:13 That's why we're doing it differently with our kids. So nobody has to be in this situation. Okay. You and I are aligned on probably that that question is is a real question, but you and I are aligned on a lot of things. I don't think a woman should be managing their husband like a man child because. Yeah. Going back to the sex topic, no, no woman wants to sleep with a man child, right? I mean, that's just not a that's not an attractive thing. And attractive man is an observant man, an action taker. Here's a question I used to ask my wife all the time, and I didn't realize I was just putting more mental load on her.

30:56 She'd be doing something. Let's just call it dinner. And I'd say, what can I help you with? Well, now I just gave her another decision to manage me. Right now, what I do is I do one of two things I either just notice and do to quote your book, which is like, maybe while she's cooking, I'll start cleaning up while she's doing it.

31:15 Right. That way there's not not as many dishes to do or I'll delegate. My wife calls me the ultimate delegator, but that's also because, like, I like my kids to chip in or I'll say, hey, I noticed that you're cooking dinner. Would would it help more if I cleaned up behind you or if I made the rice and vegetables?

31:34 So I'll lead with that structure of, like, a choice versus, like, what can I help you with? Right. Going back to the needs. Right. And I want I want to ask one more question on this topic because I think it's really important, I think, for men to understand. And I think also women do understand. I agree with you.

31:52 I don't think a woman having sex with a man is an obligation, but I do think it's an obligation. That said, I don't think a woman should give a man physical affection when she doesn't want to. Right? So it's like we're not forcing a woman to have sex, but a woman needs to feel seen. As you said, she needs to feel heard right when she's talking.

32:14 And she needs to feel safe enough to do those things without being attacked. A man needs to feel respected. He needs to feel appreciated. And the third thing we need is physical affection. And let me caveat the physical affection thing, the physical affection, like the actual physical release of sex, is actually probably like 5% of our enjoyment of sex.

32:34 It's being wanted, excepted, desired. And that's through a lot of that. We feel validated, right? That we're good enough. We're a good enough husband, a good enough man, we're attractive enough, all these different things. But going back to this topic, when a man feels that attack, usually one of those three needs is being compromised. I don't feel appreciated and I definitely don't feel respected the way you're speaking to me.

33:03 Going back to this whole thing with physical affection, when a man voices the same concerns to his wife, it's usually met with defensiveness. So I see where you're at for sure that men could be better. But how can women be better? And this is the last question I'm going to ask on this topic. And then I want to get more to how we actually implement some of the things in your book that you talk about, but how can women receive that where and to quote you, you talked about like, I'm sharing this and this is my experience.

33:39 How can a woman meet a man in that experience? I think in the same way that she would hope that a man would meet her in the experience, like being willing to look underneath the defenses because any defense is just trying to. It's just like a like a shield or like a suit of armor that's covering up something vulnerable.

34:02 Yeah. Usually shame. Right. So if if there's defenses involved, then there's something important underneath. And it's important always for both sides to get at what's underneath. And so if we're but I think it's also important if we're having like to keep like let each person have their moment. You know what I mean. Like don't do the what about on both sides if she's coming and saying, hey, we need to talk about this.

34:35 I need more support, and here's how I need support from you. Don't do the well, what about well, what about me? Well, what about my my needs? Like, there will be time to talk about that later. Whenever. Like the next day, you know, like, just let just focus on her and let her have her time, see her feelings, her vulnerabilities underneath and match that vulnerability with your own vulnerability in your willingness to be able to self-reflect and be open and be motivated purely because her quality of life matters and that she can be angry.

35:19 Don't get so hung up on the tone and that you can't hear the pain underneath. And when she has that conversation with you in whatever, whether it's sex or whatever it is, then you've built a stronger foundation for her, being able to see you and see your pain underneath, because the strongest relationships are the most vulnerable relationships, right?

35:46 So if you can both allow yourself to be vulnerable and instead of, projecting or deflecting or shutting down or lashing out or whatever it is, then that is ideal. And at the same time, we're all humans, right? We're all going to be messy. And so being able to witness each other and hold space for each other in our messiness is also like an important thing as well.

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36:46 The Arizona Cardinals are taking on the Los Angeles Rams, and we have put together something really special for you guys. When you get a ticket through the data edge.com/nfl, you're not just getting a seat at the game. You're going to get a signed copy of my book, The Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood. You're going to get an exclusive D&D edge Iron Sharpens iron branded shirt.

37:09 And before the game, we are going to be doing a private meet and greet where I get to hang out with you, shake your hand, we get to take some pictures and spend some time together before we all head into the stadium. Gents, this is going to be an awesome day. I mean, think about it. Hundreds of men from the Dad Edge audience all to show up to one game.

37:28 We are all over the country, actually all over the world. And we're trying to become better husbands, better fathers and better men. But on November 15th, we actually all get to come together. We get to do the meet and greet, we get to celebrate the brotherhood, and then we get to walk into State Farm Stadium together and watch the Cardinals take on the Rams.

37:48 This is not something we've ever done before, and I have a feeling these tickets are not going to last long. So if you want to be a part of the first ever Dad Edge day with the Arizona Cardinals, go to the dad edge.com/nfl right now to get your tickets. Again. That's the data.com/nfl. Get your ticket. Get your sign book.

38:09 Get your iron sharpens iron shirt. Come hang out with me before the game. And let's make November 15th a day that none of us will forget. And I cannot wait to see you there. I appreciate you addressing that. You know, that's a tough one to. That's a tough topic, I think, for for any couple. You know, it's, when those, those needs are not being met on both sides or those needs tend to clash, you know.

38:34 Yeah, we get we get defensive. But, just simply create some space and hear each other out, I think is something that every couple can take, whether it's sex for a man or whether it's mental load, invisible labor for a woman. So I appreciate you addressing that. I know those are tougher questions, and I'm your first, first guy asking this question.

38:54 And I just want to say too, like, I think like women like, have potentially just as much of a sex drive as men. Yeah. Like I and just as much of a need for sex and physical connection as men. So I just think that's like an important caveat as well is that like, I think the binary of, like, men want sex and women want someone to clean the house is like pretty shortsighted.

39:21 And I think when we understand that we both are on the same team and we both actually want the same thing, and if we can come together and support each other, it's like a win win win. I hear you. Thanks for answering those questions. Those are tough and I appreciate the feedback. I know the audience does too.

39:45 I would really love to move into some of the elements of your book of, you know man like raising four boys like it's people have asked me, they're like, what's it like raising four boys? I was like, oh yeah. So just just imagine when you're in college and you're at a fraternity party and everybody was drunk. It's like that only all the time, every around, every corner.

40:08 Like I've said things out loud to these human beings, I never thought I'd say a lot. Yeah. You mean, like, you know, audiences heard this a million times, but I actually had to actually ask my kids this. Who left the half eaten peanut butter and jelly on crust ball in the bathroom sink? Like, how does that even get there?

40:24 I don't even know. I'm like, I really just asked that question of these kids. But, so I think it's every parents dream, right, to be able to, you know, I, you know, it's like it's the managing like, hey, can you pick up your shoes? Hey, can you fold your laundry? Hey, can you, can you please wipe the crumbs off of the table when you're done eating and then, you know, so it's like reminder, reminder, reminder.

40:51 It just drives us insane. And then we take that to I would guess would be the next level. You're the expert in this. I'm not. But I'm just speaking from my own experience of like, okay, if I create a chore chart, you know, then things will be done. Well, well, what if I created a reward system and then everything would be done, and then those things tend to flop.

41:09 But the question I really have for you is the notice and do. How have you taught your own kids this notice and do element? And then even the thousands of families that you worked with where you don't have to manage like that, where you don't have to remind and the torch hearts are not there. So like dive into that as much as you possibly can.

41:29 I'm dying to know. Yeah, sure. So there's the whole structure in my book, and I will say it's created with the exhausted, overwhelmed parent in mind because that's who I was when I developed it and iterated on it. I always say that something can be the most like game changing system or even idea in the world, but if it is not realistic and practical and just doable for the busy, overwhelmed mom or dad, then it's just not going to happen.

41:58 So, it's a very, very simple structure. At the core of that structure is teaching kids obviously how to notice. We have also daily expectations as well. That is kind of a little bit similar to the chart. But again, that's all in the book. But the noticing piece is the easiest part to get started with. And everything else can come later.

42:19 But teaching kids how to notice is the foundation for all of the other learning. And the easiest way to do that is to do what I call a noticing walk. So you can just take 1015 minutes and you can do one room at a time, or you can do a few of like the communal areas of the house all at once. There's not a race you can go slow, and you just walk around and you're going to point out in each kind of main room, what are the examples of things they can notice? So for example, in a bathroom. Okay, so here's the trash can. When it gets about this full, that's the signal that needs to be emptied.

43:00 Here's how you empty it okay. Now let's go look at the sink. This is where everything like the clutter goes. These are the drawer the products go in. Hairbrushes, toothbrush, toothpaste, whatever. If you look now at, like, the drain when it starts getting kind of like an orangey ring around the drain, that's how you know it's ready to be cleaned.

43:21 Here's a rag spray bottle. I'll show you how to do this real quick. You know, spray it down. Let's look at the toilet now. Same thing. We're looking for an orange ring. Anyways, you're going to do that for every room in the house, and you are going to sound a little bit unhinged, because a lot of this stuff, you think, oh, this is so obvious.

43:39 This is common sense, right? They should know this. Do not assume that they know kids don't know what they don't know. And when one parent or parents have been doing the vast majority of this kind of internal, cognitive labor, and they're the ones that have been noticing things, kids haven't had a chance to learn how to do this.

43:59 So it's just it's learning how to notice is like the exact same thing as learning any other life skill, like learning how to tie your shoes, learning how to brush your teeth. But we have to break it down for them step by step and be very, very specific so they can start to see what is involved in terms of, the awareness that drives the actual physical tasks in order to get them done.

44:24 Because it's one thing to teach your kid, here's how to clean the bathroom, or here's how to clear off a kitchen counter. But it's another thing entirely to teach them. Here's how you know when those things need to be done, and here's why it's important for you to know how to do that and notice that on your own, instead of just defaulting to mom's got it?

44:44 She'll tell me, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I know you and I aren't too terribly far and off in the age, but do you remember the book when we were little kids called Where the Sidewalk Ends? By Shelf? Yeah. That book, what was it? Sylvia Stout never took the garbage out. Oh, yeah, a little bit. Yeah, yeah, it was like she never took it out.

45:09 And then, like, the the poem read like it finally stretched, like, literally across the nation, like, went from California to New York. And I smiled so much for these guys. Watch on YouTube. Because like, the trash can, I'm like, we got like in the kids bathroom downstairs. We got like one of those little trash cans and I'm like, and it's probably like a foot tall, right?

45:28 And I'm like, how is it that the pile gets to be, like 20in tall? And it becomes like this balancing act before, and I still have to go down and be like, and here's what I, here's what I miss, and this is what I want the audience to really capture. Because I've been a dad for 20 years, I've never taken my I've never taken my kids through a notice exercise, ever.

45:52 And I'm sitting here thinking like, oh my God, I wish I would have talked to Sam like 15 years ago because, like, they're either probably doing one of two things somebody else will deal with this or, I'm just going to keep piling things on because it's not my job. Right. But if, if, if I were to take my kids and I, I can literally see this happening, like if I were to be like, hey, boys, see the trash can?

46:18 Like, how tall is that pile? And when it gets up to this, this is when you need to be taking it out. I've never had that conversation with them. I'm still like the CEO of Hagner LLC, you know, like still managing the tasks, but okay, so, yeah, I also smiled when you said the term unhinged because that's such like a word for our kids these days.

46:43 But, so have you found, twofold question have you found, like, some, like, moments, like the kids have like an moment, like, oh yeah. Like, look at that. Like the sink and the toilet and and the and the trash can. And and then they finally get it right. And then I really want to know what is that response look like from them, or do they just, you know, the opposite where they're just like, oh, your dad, you're so unhinged.

47:13 Like you're so. You're so this like where there's like, now, there's now there's a battle. But I'd love for you to maybe address both of those. Yeah, I love that question. 100%. Both. Okay. Because kids are going to kid. And if we're saying, like, hey, we're upping the expectations, I'm going to teach you this stuff that you're probably not going to be jazzed about, because who actually cares about this stuff?

47:35 And who actually wants to, like, who's excited to fold laundry? Nobody. But we just do it because it's a, expectation of being a human and a family. But if they haven't been expected to do those things and we're teaching them to do those things, resistance is so normal. I roles are normal. And that's okay. So just taking that stuff in stride with the understanding that like, yeah, okay, their kids, that's fine.

48:01 I feel that way too about this stuff sometimes. And then the light bulb moments are really cool. I have so many stories. One of them was when we first started talking about this. So my son, who's now almost nine, was five at the time, maybe six, I think he was five. We were in a public restroom together, like the Dollar Tree.

48:30 And it was like, really, really, like a really gross bathroom. And he. And he was like, oh, it's so gross in here. I was like, yeah. There, there's a lot of noticing that needs to be done in here. And he is so funny. He like, rolled his eyes and goes, sheesh, carry the mental load, why don't you? So he like he knew at five years old what the mental load meant and saw that in a bathroom meant that nobody was doing the work of noticing that it needed to be cared for. Similarly, I had a DM recently from a mom telling me about her sixth grade son came home from school with like a little, like, good job award certificate.

49:16 And apparently he had taken the initiative to clear off a bunch of tables in the library that were messy or whatever, and the librarian gave him a little appreciation thing. So his mom was asking him about it. And so just tell me about this. This is really cool. And he just shrugged and said, mom, let's just doing the mental load.

49:37 So things like that, like when we think about, okay, this is a sixth grade boy who knows what the mental load is and knows how to not only act on that and take initiative in his home, but doing it out in the wider world. Like, I mean, I have like honestly, I have a thousand stories like this, and I know because I had to go through all of my testimonials and stories that people have sent me over the years, to in the writing of my book.

50:08 And so it's really, really cool to see things happening not just within the four walls of my own home, but for families of all kinds. Neurodivergent, strong little kids, young kids, older kids, even adult kids living at home, single parents. And seeing the shifts that are happening, I think it's important to, to understand that, like, can we say, hey, I need you to notice more and I'm going to show you how to do it and then, navigate the resistance.

50:40 Okay. And then, like, throw our arms up in the air and frustration when that doesn't work. Because for a lot of kids teaching them how to notice and saying, hey, I need you to do this more, they might they'll do that. Like some kids will do that. Those are not my kids. That is not my experience at all.

50:57 My whole family's been diagnosed, including my husband with ADHD. So that's there's a reason for the structure, which is in the book as well, because this was developed specifically for strong willed neurodivergent kids in mind. And these kids oftentimes need structure. And then also the expectations that are supported by boundaries, meaning, for example, I'll say, hey, this is the expectation.

51:23 Now, when you've done your notice and due for the day, you need to come tell me. And then after you've done that, then you can have access to your normal everyday stuff. Like that's when you can do video games. That's when you can go hang out with friends. That's when you can go to soccer practice. But the work has to come first.

51:41 And so it's kind of like a basic order of operations. So we're not giving them a reward. It's not a star chart. We're not throwing on the cookie. It's just saying this before that. So the work gets done without you having to be like the constant reminder. That was actually my next question was is this more based around reward or is it, around punishment?

52:05 Financial, you know, gain of like, hey, you do these chores, you get paid. This is more expectations and boundaries. We use this this one. This is part of like, just like learning to brush your teeth as part of being a human. Learning to notice what needs to be done in a home is part of being a human like, in the same way that we put on pants before we go outside.

52:26 We do these things before we do like our normal everyday stuff that we are naturally motivated to have access to. I just call them preexisting motivators. So it's like as a parent, nobody's paying you to, do the dishes, don't paying you to do the laundry. This is just part of being a human in a family. And that's what like equity means, right?

52:48 And shared responsibility. I love that, you know, because so many parents really get into the power struggles of all this. So another just to switch gears, like, so we've talked about the kids. I think that and by the way, congrats on making this. So I would say simple because I think the more common yeah, I mean, the more complex we make it because like I think parents out there, me included, you rack your brain around like how can I create a system?

53:19 And then you created like ten step process that nobody no, I cannot I cannot with a spreadsheet I can. Yeah. No I if it's not simple like it's not going to happen. It has to be so so achievable. I agree with you. Let's get back to, spouses. So we've talked about managing the kids, you know, and managing the kids we've talked about notice and do with the kids when it comes to a marriage.

53:48 What is the notice and do look like for, for I would even say each of us not not a woman managing like, okay, husband, here's how you notice and do how do both parties, you know, like collaborate on this? I think it's something that's going to look different for every single situation and relationship. I think the key is it sounds so dumb, but like finding what works best for you as a team and then for both of you individually, can I can I do that?

54:21 Go for it. Could you maybe share? Yeah, I know, it's like it's different strokes for different folks. And it's, you know, one thing, when I work for this family, it might not work for this one. Have you found with all the folks that you work with, that maybe there's 1 or 2 pretty common ones that you've noticed people can land on.

54:41 Land on meaning like strategies. Yeah, like being more collaborative, like. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I can speak to I guess the easiest way would be speak to my situation with my husband and I. Right. So what works well for us specifically is we will kind of divide up the bigger tasks instead of trying to divide up every single thing that we could possibly divide up.

55:09 Again, for us, we're just like, whoa, we're so overwhelmed that even feels too hard to even try to attend. We take we, said, okay, what are the main things? Dishes are my our kids unload the dishwasher, but like, getting the dishwasher loaded. Our kids handle their own laundry, but like, our laundry. My laundry, his laundry together, car maintenance, vacuuming meals, meal planning, meal prep.

55:38 Those are kind of like the main ones. And we just had to pay. You do these, you do these. And do we kind of, like, jump in every now and then and like, oh, hey, like, I'll do this for you real quick or whatever for sure. Like, it's not like a hard line, like we only do those things and nothing else. But that way it's like, okay, in my mind, I can check off like he does all of our laundry. I can check off that. That's going to get handled because he's on top of it. I load the dishwasher. He doesn't have to worry about that. He actually does all of our meal planning and prep and, like, making the food, so he does that.

56:21 And then I manage a lot of the kids stuff. So I'm going to do that, like their play practice, their rehearsals, their sports stuff. So we do it in a way that feels like we are like we're both writing side by side on the horses. Right? And we're both writing at like equal speed. I will say, though, doing it that way takes a lot less assumption, from the man that she especially if if you're in a situation where the woman has been doing most of it, it's going to take a lot less assumption that she will just jump in and handle all of the rest of the pieces because, right, there's a ton more little things that need to happen. So we say that we fill in the gaps by each of us proactively noticing and doing without needing to be told or directed just throughout the day. Like we see a need. We make it happen. But you have to be like looking actively for those needs so things don't fall through the cracks.

57:15 You know, it's really interesting is, the way you guys run your, your marriage and who does what. It's very similar to what we do, and it really works. And I think what you're really talking about here is what Lane are you in and what lane am I in? So, like, are two little guys. They empty the dishwasher every day.

57:34 All all four of my boys, they are responsible for their own laundry. We taught them a long time ago were like, oh, if you don't have clean clothes, that's on you. You know how to do the laundry. You know how to fold it, put it away. Amazing. I take care of pretty much everything, like outside the house. I do help, like I do the dishes.

57:52 Like the dishes thing. Like we just sort of like, well, whoever steps in and we. I think we take, like, mental note of who's been doing the dishes more and we just step in and do it without any resentment. The sports stuff, like I basically manage and handle all that. I update our calendar of what's going on. I'm usually the one which I actually prefer this, I love it, I'm the Uber driver for practices and that kind of thing.

58:15 I just, I don't know, I just love that time with my kids and my wife doesn't really like it. There's been one in particular like, point of contention. And that's my wife hates cooking dinner. I actually love to cook. Like, it's so therapeutic for me, but my wife hates it. But I don't have the opportunity to cook all the time, like I probably cook half time.

58:35 She cooks half the time. But one thing I know that she really appreciates is every Sunday I'll cook. A lot of, I would say protein, right. And then, you know, it's super easy for her to, like, throw together sides. Like, I love that. That's beautiful. Yes. Yeah. And before though, like, before we kind of came that was I think our last point of contention was, was dinner.

58:56 And she's like, I hate dinner because, like, I bust my butt and my wife will self proclaim that she's not a good cook and she's like, only to have three out of three, three people in the family tell me they don't like what I cooked. I just hate it. Yeah. So I really picked up this and picked up the the extra with that one.

59:14 But I also really enjoy it. But I think you're right. You know, it's it's really dividing and conquering and also like hey what's your lane. What's my lane? I think that that's so important. Just as we wrap up here today, is, is there anything that you want to share that hasn't been shared yet that you think might be really important for the audience to hear?

59:40 I don't know. I mean, nothing's really jumping out, coming to mind. Yeah. I don't know nothing. Well, thanks for being a good sport though, and answering some of those tougher questions. I it's just after podcasting, working with men for as long as I have, I know that that was probably something on their mind. So. Sure. Well, we can work in the guys. Connect with you. Your book, everything that you're doing.

1:00:06 What's the best place? Cool. Yeah. So I'm on Instagram at Sam Kelly underscore world. And if they want to get my book, it's just notice and do you can search that on anywhere where you know Amazon Barnes Noble any independent bookshop. And it will pop up. All right. Well guys, we're going to have all the links in the show notes for you.

1:00:27 Make sure you check it out. Check out the book. Might be a good gift for one of your buddies. Yes, I know you've helped me personally tremendously. Just on this podcast alone. Like when my kids go home from school, I'm going to take them through a notice and do evolution. I love that. Yeah, I'm going to start with the bathroom because if you've got, you know, for boys and bathrooms, they're just a total shit show.

1:00:49 But but guys, you can find everything we talked about today. And by the way, don't forget about our October promo. My brand new book, The Marriage Drift. Stop Chasing and start Leading. That's not even available to the public yet. So if you join us in the month of October for the Alliance, you're going to get a signed copy of my book, along with the two courses that I talked about creating more Patience, Creating an Extraordinary Marriage, as well as my brand new book that's not even open to the public yet.

1:01:15 It's based on our cohorts, roommates, and soulmates where you're going to learn all about polarity, attraction, having better conversations like we talked about today, even make sure you guys check that out for the month of October. It's only for the month of October, so go to the edge.com/1542 for this show. Sam Kelly, thank you so much for coming on today.

1:01:34 This was awesome. Thank you for having me.