The Wizard of Wizardry Brenda Romero

That was exactly it. You know, the idea that, you know, games had to be fun, that games could not also explore all the same subject matter as music, movies, books, poetry, photography. And I mean, we're all very serious about games here, you know? And I think that games are the greatest art form ever.

But yet we get pushed and pigeonholed into this, "Yeah, but that's not fun." Well, Eric Clapton's song Tears in Heaven isn't fun either. It's about a, one of the darkest moments in his life, I would say, mourning the death of his son, you know? And so I really wanted to see could, could games do that?

That was Brenda Romero. Uh, wow, Brenda. You know, I never got to meet Brenda before, and she is so awesome, so fascinating. But talking about, um, games as an art form and how sometimes our c- our sort of creative- She said greatest. Greatest art form … greatest. It is a great… And, and I agree. It just has so many different knobs to turn, uh, for expression.

But if, you know, in her quote, like, sometimes when you turn those knobs to uncomfortable places, it makes people uncomfortable, and that's kinda what art is about, isn't it? Is it? Yeah. Yeah. It's like everything. It's like good, it's like food. Well, making, making people feel, you know? Mm-hmm. Or informing people too.

Yeah. So it's like- Yeah, communicating. Yeah, 'cause you could have, you know, it's like YouTube.

It's like it's everything stories, information, learning, make, ruining people's lives, building people's lives up in games. You know, it made me think a lot about… Remember, uh, when we interviewed the Mist guys? In their first game. They talked about their first game and how that game really was just like a ser- it was basically a, a, uh, a, uh, PowerPoint presentation.

It's like it's everything HyperCard, yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's like, it… When she said that, it made me think of, like, where the, it stops being a medium and starts being a medium and, you know, like, where the edges are of a game. You know? Yeah. ' Cause it's like- Yeah … you could layer on interaction to, Is it not scripted?

It's like it's everything You know, is it open world? Is it… You know? And then within that- Well, it, it, it, it makes you think about a lot of things. Like, um, uh, a- and this was in the context a little bit of, uh, Brenna talking about the game Train, which is a, a game that- Which is a board game which she made, yeah. Um, and it, it reminded me, so our buddy Peter Tampte, who's making the Six Days in Fallujah game, he's been working on this game for almost two years.

It's like it's everything Oh, yeah. And when he started working on it- Yeah … it was just so controversial. Like, how could you make a game about that subject? Yet there are countless films and, uh, books and other ar- art forms and media associated with the events, uh, around the war in the Gulf. But a video game is, to a lot of people, not okay.

It's like it's everything Yeah. You know, I, I bumped up against that too once when I lived in Germany. So when we- when I was, uh, working at a studio there, we were working on a, a game where you play, like, a, a French assassin, and it's, like, during the Nazi, uh, World War II stuff. Yeah. And we could not have any kind of, like, Nazi symbolism.

It's like it's everything Like, we couldn't have swastikas or, you know, like nothing. They couldn't even do the- Yeah … the hand salute. But if we were making a movie, you could have all that. So, like, they, like- Oh, really? That- Yeah, 'cause it wasn't considered art … German law is, is only about games. Yeah. Interesting.

It's like it's everything Was that Velvet Assassin? Was that the game? Yeah. Yeah, Velvet Assassin. And it, it's changed now. Like, I think it's like it's opened up more. So it's really interesting, like they didn't consider video games art form. Like, they had a lot of, uh… I think, I think Halo had some censorship there, right, at the time.

It's like it's everything Or was it Marathon where they had to turn all the blood into- We did… You know, that was one of my first experiences with, um, like game localization and sort of where it bumps up against authorship was- Mm-hmm … changing the, you know, like blood from red to a different color. To black like oil or something.

It's like it's everything Yeah. For, for, yeah, for, for different markets. Um- Or rag dolls are illegal there, too. Yeah, but it's just, it's interesting that you could have, like, these crazy horror films. Wait, rag doll? Yeah. Rag dolls? You couldn't do rag dolls. Yeah. Interesting. So rag dolls. So whenever someone would die…

It's like it's everything But they've been changing. Like, I, I don't know where it's at now. I know that, like God of… I think it was God of War, some game like that at the time really changed the laws, like God of War 3 or something, where they allowed certain things. Like, you could rag doll if it was, like, a mystical creature, but if it was a human, so- Interesting but yeah.

It's like it's everything Anyway, like it just… But j- th- at the same time, Germany's making these crazy horror films that are, like, unbelievably gory. Right? And there's, like, Nazi symbols everywhere. So it's, it's interesting, like art, like how for a long time nobody… I mean, I, you, I think you said once you were afraid of telling people you made video games 'cause they were, like, looked down upon or, like, not taken seriously, and now it's like, you know, y- it's this weird…

It's like it's everything It's like it is, but it kind of isn't still, you know? Like, everyone connects it to Fortnite or Pac-Man versus, you know- I think in, in the, in the gestalt of consumption, video games occupy a commercial lane, um, uh, more so than they occupy an artistic expression lane. Whereas, you know, films and other, you know, storytelling media or, or other media can, can be in both places equally, you know?

It's like it's everything And, you know, so I… That's one of the things that impressed me so much about Brenda is that, uh, she, uh, was, was interested, brave, uh, creative and had the initiative to go and explore the artistic lane. You know, she didn't even… She never made Train available For purchase. It was, it was art. Yeah.

It's like it's everything And I think that's pretty cool. She's also getting a PhD, like, come on. That's, that's bonkers. Um, another thing, I, you know, I was in, um… We haven't chatted in a little, little while, Aaron. I know, yeah. I was in Portugal last week. And what were you doing there? Well, I had a, I had a conference for a few days, and then, um, Laura came and, and, uh, joined me and we hung out.

It's like it's everything Oh? What a, what a lovely country. Yeah. Spain basically- Yeah … right? It's like… Um, I don't know that the Portuguese would agree with you. Yeah. Well, it's like, it's like if, if someone goes to Florida and they're like, "It's Texas, basically." Yeah, kind of, I guess. It's connected. Yeah. Yeah. I always think of Spain when I think Portugal.

It's like it's everything I know they speak, they speak Portuguese there and, and- Well, they, um- … it's completely different culture … they do speak Portuguese, and we work with, um, a few studios in Brazil where they also speak Portuguese. Yep. And I was hanging out with somebody who was from Brazil. Oh. And the Portuguese that's spoken in Brazil is a little different from the Portuguese spoken in- Is it someone from Monster?

It's like it's everything It's like French in Canada, right? No, I mean, it, uh, yeah, yeah, the accent very different- Mm-hmm … ex- et cetera. But, um, wow, we walked all over that city. Um, incredible food, history. We went, um- Oh, yeah? What'd you eat? What was the best thing you ate there? The best th- oh, my gosh. We went to this, um, restaurant called Belcanto.

It's like it's everything You know I'm a, you know I'm a foodie, right? Yeah. So the first thing I did, like, "Oh, I'm going to Portugal." You Googled it. "Let's, let's look up what restaurant I gotta go to." Um, this was like three-hour-long dinner, you know, eight, eight glasses of… I spent some tickets in Portugal. Eight glasses of wine, uh- Oh eight courses, just incredible.

It's like it's everything Eight glasses of wine. This man, you have to take small- That's like, that's two and a half bottles. You gotta taste. Take, taste, taste. Then you just took Uber and drive, went around town. I had a r- rough day the next day. Um, uh, but, a- actually, any, any, if any listeners are interested in my ticket program as it relates to alcohol consumption, just DM me.

It's like it's everything I'll let you know how it works. It's, uh, it's changed my life. Um, how are you? What have you been up to? I'm playing a lot of games, a lot of board games. There's too many games now. I was thinking that this is the best time to be alive for games. It's almost like, do you remember whenever they made, uh, the VHS?

It's like it's everything Did you have a VHS recorder when you were a kid? Yeah. Yeah. Remember when that happened? It's like, "We can make our own movies?" And then you could go to the video store and, like, rent movies and, like, you know, it was just, like, a very… It feels like that for games right now, you know? It's like, it's, there's so many avenues to make games now.

It's like it's everything They're all free, you know? There's so many free games. It's ne- never been more accessible to play, create, the lines between blurring, all of that. Yeah. And there's so many. It's like a golden age of board games, card games. So I've just been spending a lot of time playing a lot of games. The, like, there's a lot, like, a lot of free stuff, which is crazy, you know?

It's like it's everything It's so nuts. Like, on the board game side or are, or you just mean, like, video games? On… Even on board game, yeah. Like, just today I got, uh, there's a guy that he, he used to design for Warhammer, uh, for, well, for the, the games workshop, and he just announced that he made a game, and he, he put it out for free, so you can get that for free, and that's cool.

It's like it's everything Uh, The Witcher 3 did a… Whi- which I'm about to start reading the book, by the way. I haven't read it yet. I read two other books in between. So I have been reading. Uh, but the, um, The Witcher 3 just, uh, the enhanced or remastered version came out today, and if you own the Nintendo Switch one version of it, which I do- You get the, the upgrade for free, which is basically a new game 'cause it's like they redid the whole thing.

It's like it's everything So that's free, which is kind of free, right? 'Cause the game, like you could get it for like 10 bucks, like on eBay or whatever. Anyways, it's just a really good time. So I've been playing a lot of games, as you can tell from my and you're only seeing one little portion. Yeah. All right. Well, listener, thank you for joining us for this, uh, e- uh, edition of The Fourth Curtain.

It's like it's everything We had a fantastic conversation with Brenda Romero, and we hope you enjoy it. We'll see you on the other side Hello, friends, and welcome to this week's episode of The Fourth Curtain, and what an episode we have for you today. Our guest today is Brenda Romero, quite simply one of the most accomplished game designers of all time.

It's like it's everything I'm looking for anybody getting… Yep, yep, a little embarrassed. Good, good, good, good. Um, since en- entering the industry in 1981, Brenda has worked on 50… Is that right? 50 games? 50 games. That's incredible. Including the legendary Wizardry and Jagged Alliance series, along with a little bit of D&D in there.

It's like it's everything Was that D&D on PlayStation? It was, yeah. Right on. Maybe most notably, at least from my POV, the analog game series, The Mechanic is the Message, including Train, which I really wanna talk about. Um, she's a Fulbright Scholar, a BAFTA Award winner, the former chair of Savannah College of Art and Design's game program, the author of the book Sex and Video Games, and the CEO and co-founder of Romero Games.

It's like it's everything What a resume. Brenda, we're so happy we could make this schedule work out. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? Yay. Welcome. Great. Thanks for inviting me. Now I have to live up to that intro. Yeah. Easy, easy peasy. It is easy. Like, if you just, if you, if you don't die and don't change careers, like, you, you- You get, you get a BAFTA that's about it.

It's like it's everything So, yeah. Well, y- you know, that's funny you, you say that because I, um, I get asked a lot about folks, like, who have game studios, like, "What advice do you have for me?" And, uh, the only advice I ever give people is just don't go out of business. Yeah, yeah. Stay profitable. Yeah. Yeah, if, if you can survive, you, you know.

It's like it's everything Survive. Especially now, yeah. That is, like, one of my biggest achievements for 2026, stayed in business. Yay. Well, I mean, that's no mean feat, um- No … right now. No, I know I've, I've, I'm… How many studios have you had? Three, and then there's, like, another just sort of a rando merch and speaking thing, which isn't really a studio, but it's a separate business.

It's like it's everything Right. Right. Well, I mean, I think, so every studio that I've, um, had the privilege to run, um, has always had a moment of, you know, or several, near catastrophe, you know. Yeah. Absolutely. Go so close to the sun, and it seems like everybody has had that experience this year. Some, some have made it back, some, some haven't.

It's like it's everything But, um, yeah, maybe we, maybe we start at the other end of the, uh, of the journey. The beginning. More of the, more of the beginning 'cause I… So you got your start in games in the '80s. Yeah. And I think a lot of our listeners maybe weren't born yet then. Um- What city was that, by the way, in the '80s where you started?

It's like it's everything It was Ogdensburg, New York, which is absolutely not known for games. Uh, there are more cows than people- … in St. Lawrence County where I grew up. But yeah, I started, well, I mean, I started making games when I was five just out of pure necessity. I wanted- Wow … to play games. I didn't have games, and so I- we would go to, um, garage sales with my mom, and she'd give me a dime, and I would buy games.

It's like it's everything I didn't care. I just wanted the parts, and I would use the parts and reassemble them into games. And they were, I'm positive they were all absolutely terrible. But yeah. But then I got, when I got into the actual industry, per se, was at Sir-Tech, and my job, like, I'm- I was 15. I was a kid, but my job was perfect.

It's like it's everything Like, it was play these games, memorize them, and then when people call and say, "How do I get to the wizard on the 10th level?" Like, you gotta come out with that answer right away. So, and I s- my head, like, there's a whole portion of my head that still retains all the random trivia- … from the Wizardry games.

It's like it's everything Wow. Um, where's Ogdensburg? Or is that New York? Ogdensburg is top of New York State. It is, uh… It's an hour south of Ottawa. It's right on the St. Lawrence River. Okay. So yeah, it's way- So you got cold, you got cold snow. You got snow up there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. People ask, now that I live in Ireland, they ask, like, "Does the weather here bother you?"

It's like it's everything And it's like, "Man- Yeah. … it's so far, it don't bother me." No, I… My family lives in the place that, you know, CNN features with, "So and so got five feet of snow today." So- Oh, right on. Wow. How, how did your family end up there? Like, what, what were, what was, uh, what were your parents doing- Oh … to, to land there?

It's like it's everything My mother was, uh… Geez, I can give this answer all the way back, but I don't think you want it. Well, just suffice to say that, that people came over from Ireland during the famine, and then, uh, they went, some went to Canada, some went to the US, and they met in Ogdensburg, New York. My mother was born in Canada, and my father had been in Ogdensburg for I don't know how long.

It's like it's everything So that's just where my family was. You went from, like, board games that you made yourself straight to wizardry. Like, do you what was in between there? Like, were you, were you a board game person? What's funny is right, I… In, in, like, the synchronicity of this is kind of weird because I'm, I'm working on, uh…

It's like it's everything I'm writing a memoir right now of a, a life in games, but it's all in games or some form from my profession. So I have this thing I've been working on, which is a profession loot drop table, and going through all of my different professions that I've held. So I was just writing about the encounter that I had with, uh, Linda, then Linda Sarateck, now Linda Curry, and I was…

It's like it's everything I played D, I played D&D. Uh, my mother, who obviously didn't know, not know she was handing me a box of demons, um- Yeah … she got me the, the original white box, which I still have. Oh, wow. And so Linda, um, in… We were… Because there's 100 feet of snow on the ground That's a slight exaggeration. Um, Lin- we, so we were smoking in the bathroom, which also is, I wouldn't advocate for getting into the industry.

It's like it's everything Anyway, Linda came in. She was obviously looking for a non-menthol cigarette. To be polite, I offered her one, and now she's sort of stuck. Like, we knew who each other were, but, uh, but she just… I, I guess at some point it's like, "Hey." She had this job that I later took, um, at Sir-Tech. Took over.

It's like it's everything Sorry, I didn't take it from her. But- … um, but she, she just struck up a conversation, which was, "Do you have a job?" I didn't. Had I ever heard of Sir-Tech? No. Had I ever heard of Wizardry? Also no. Um, had I ever played D&D? Yeah, I'm a DM. And I thought she was, like, looking for a group to join- … but she was looking for somebody who could take over her job at Sir-Tech so she could do something else.

It's like it's everything So, so, um, she asked me to show up the following week at her house just to see the game, and man, it was love at first sight. It was D&D on a computer. Um, so that was my job, and I would come in 4:00 to 8:00, uh, Monday to Friday,

and eventually it was, like, 3 00 to 9:00 and then 2:00 to 10:00, and I just- … like, man, I couldn't get enough of it. And you were 15? I was 15, yeah, and p- playing games for money, which is, you know, hysterical So wa- was that your first time you saw a computer game? No, it wa- it wasn't the first time I saw a computer game. I mean, there were games that were in the arcades.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Um, and my mother had, you know, everything, my mother, my mother had some, also at some garage sale, got a VIC-20. Yeah. So she had ch- she had, she'd gotten with it a magazine, and she told me, "You're type…" She's trying to find something for me to do other than just sit around the house. And so, um, so she says, "Type this in and it'll do something." So that was my first experience with- That's awesome …

and eventually it was, like, 3 computers and code. And then I learned that you could make, like, really, like, rudimentary games that weren't really games at all, but, like, type this in, type in the word chest. You opened a chest. You know, like, you didn't- Yeah … it's not the real same thing as a game. But, um, and then there were some, like, cassettes that had games on them.

and eventually it was, like, 3 So that would've been my actual first encounter, um, outside of arcades. Okay. So then what? What hap- what happens, how long were you doing Wizardry for? I was at Sir-Tech for 20 years. What were you doing- Okay, that's tough … there, too? So- Yeah … everything. Like, of, you know, uh, whenever there was, like, whenever there was an opening.

and eventually it was, like, 3 So I worked through Sir- for Sir-Tech all the way through college and did whatever needed to be done. You know, a lot of it was, uh, you're still learning the games, but testing the games, um, and whatever development stuff needed to be done. It was a really small company. Yeah, I'm fortunate that I can say, you know, I did everything from, uh, write stuff that was in the game to, um, to bug reports, to shipping games out, to tech support, to packing and shrink-wrapping boxes as they went out.

and eventually it was, like, 3 I mean, it was, you know, it was an all hands… Uh, people had jobs, like, but it was, uh, you know, it, it was an all hands on deck type of situation. So, um, so I, my intent was to go to college and become an accountant. Like, I loved math. I really loved it. But also, and, uh, you know, I remember I had, um, I ran into a friend of mine, and he was a, at the time, this is probably 10 years ago now.

and eventually it was, like, 3 At the time, he was an M&A lawyer for Condé Nast And he also came out of this small town where there were more cows than people. And we were talking about, like, what did… He went to college for journalism. I went to college, I was good with math. So what do you go to college for? You might say mathematics.

and eventually it was, like, 3 You might say programming. Obviously, in my worldview, it was an accountant. That's what you do. And it's just, you know, sort of what you know gates what your aspirations might be, at least initially. So I went to college for accounting. Um, I was lucky I… And I, I'm still working for Sirtek this whole time.

and eventually it was, like, 3 I'd a, a teacher who, uh, asked to speak with me after class just to say that, you know, you're writing. So this was in a writing class. You're, you know, not everybody can do what you're doing. Have you thought about changing your major? And yet I hadn't, but, like, I- accounting was just… I had done, like, some help for a restaurant ma- balancing their books, and I was like, man, I just, I don't know that I can do this.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Like, this is, this is- Yeah … I mean, I can do it, right? But, but this isn't the fun I hoped I'd have. Anyway, so I changed. Putting one word after another was joy. So when I changed my major, it was technical communications, so it was half code, half writing. Um, and as it turned out, I wouldn't really have known it.

and eventually it was, like, 3 So the, the way that technical communications then was framed was you talk to programmers and all the tech people. You write a manual so that whoever is gonna be using this thing will understand it. But it works perfectly in reverse if you wanna be a game designer. So I'm going to imagine the play experience that you want, then I'm gonna write documentation to give to the programmers to have them create this experience.

and eventually it was, like, 3 So, uh, so I, I finished my degree, and the assumption was always that I was going to go somewhere and get a job. My dreams were Microsoft or IBM, so I interviewed for, for, with IBM in Atlanta, and I vividly, I vividly remember, um, I don't have the memory John has, but this one I do. I vividly remember rounding this corner when sh- this woman who was leading the interview said to me, "So what you'll be doing is revising DOS manuals."

and eventually it was, like, 3 And I thought, "No, I won't." "No, I will not." "There is no future for me in revising DOS manuals." Um, and so I went back to Sirtek, uh, and they always knew I'm gonna graduate college and go do something. So I went back to Sirtek and had a conversation. It was Rob Sirtek, and he asked me how it went, and I said, "It went okay."

and eventually it was, like, 3 And I said, "But, you know, I-" I think I just wanna keep making games. And that was it. And that was it. That was, that was all we were gonna talk about with that. And so I just stayed and had an opportunity to, you know, pretty much work, you know, work my way from here to, you know, up to, uh, designer at Sir-Tech.

and eventually it was, like, 3 And, um, whenever somebody… Like, there was a guy who was writing the manuals for the game, and when he left, it was like, "I could do that." So whenever, you know, the industry itself as it is now, it was, you know, still reforming itself, so just, um, you know, taking advantage of ev- any opportunity to learn something new.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Yeah. So you, you're ki- you kinda, like, made your own career path by just going and doing, filling a, filling a role that needed filling at a c- at a company that was, like, a small company like that. Yeah, yeah. I was really, I was really fortunate. And I mean, like, it's amazing that they were located there.

and eventually it was, like, 3 And then eventually I went to… They also had, um, there was an office in Canada, and so I also then eventually went up to the Canadian office, which is where Wizardry 8 and Jagged Alliance were being, were being made. Right on. Ho- how, how many, how many f- like, did the company grow over those 20 years?

and eventually it was, like, 3 Like, how many people were there when you started versus- I don't think it was ever over 50. You know? I think probably, probably it averaged around 30 people development-wise. Um, yeah, I don't think it was much more than that. Was your, what was your title at the studio? Was it, like, designer, or were you just, like, there?

and eventually it was, like, 3 Early on, early on there, especially early on in the industry, I didn't even really know the title game designer. I suppose that would've been applied to people like Warren, you know, who was, who were the, who, people who were working in paper games and board games at the time. I- in our industry, we would've usually just said programmer.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Right. And the programmer was doing everything, um, and maybe bringing in some writing. So I would've been a writer for quite a while, and then eventually have moved into game design. Interesting … Raytan. Re- Which felt to me like the, sort of the synthesis of everything that I had been doing, like creating worlds in D&D, the board game stuff that I did.

and eventually it was, like, 3 I loved writing. Finally, I made sense, like my spreadsheets were balancing things still, but it was monsters and magic as opposed to- like receipts for some small restaurant, you know? So it all, it all came to- came in. That's real- that's a really interesting way of thinking about it. It's like system design is sorta like accounting, you know?

and eventually it was, like, 3 Where it- Yeah. Totally is accounting … seems to tie together, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. And that, that is, that it's way more interesting in the game context. Absolutely. Um, yeah, th- you're, like, how you're describing Wizardry, it reminds me, I mean, probably many studios back in that time where, you know, the studio did everything, made the game, did the tech support, like probably shrink-wrapped their own boxes or whatever and had to deal with retail and all that.

and eventually it was, like, 3 It's kind of a bygone era moment in time. Um, I kind of wonder, I never really thought about this, like how that experience has sort of maybe made the way you approach game design today maybe different from… This, this was a question I was gonna ask you because I ask myself this question all the time, which is having, like decades of experience in this industry that's gone through so much change, does that, is it an advantage for you?

and eventually it was, like, 3 Is it a disadvantage? Is it both? But I'm kind of wondering if, if, yeah, like, if maybe that experience that, you know, you had, I, I've had that experience as well, if that's kinda changed how we approach… Not changed, but like we have a unique approach to today's game design because we've been through that era.

and eventually it was, like, 3 I don't know. I, I feel like anything that I did certainly before the year 2000 is useless, except maybe- … in terms of discipline and- And how, like, the patterns of solving problems. Um, because so much has changed. You know? Like, we used to put games in a box, and then we would all go on vacation for a couple weeks, right?

and eventually it was, like, 3 And like, we, we would release games, at least at Sir-Tech, we really tried to release games finished, right? We would- Yeah … play test the hell out of them. Um, and so that y- you didn't have to… Because patches were expensive. It meant you were sending out a disc to every single person who had the game to update it.

and eventually it was, like, 3 That's like- Oh, yeah … so much to me. Yeah. Um, so there's so much that's new in games. And, you know, there's, there's… Part of me is, has this dinosaur-like knowledge, which is great for, for game developer parties, right? In talking about these things. But then there are all kinds of n- new things that we do.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Like, you know, battle passes and, and all the different ways to monetize, and, um, and just so- the way sometimes somebody'll introduce a mechanic, and then it'll roll through every game in that genre. You know? Live updates, and so there's just, there's so much to know. And depending on the team you're working in, too, like, I, uh…

and eventually it was, like, 3 You know, games are really big, and you need… Well, it can be. Um, and the teams can be really big. And so I, at this point in time, like, I don't assume that I know how to do anything, really. I make sure that I've got an expert who's doing those things, you know? So, so I, I try to get out of my own way.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Ian, sometimes that doesn't help. Sometimes I still get in my own way. But, you know, like, there was, there's, there was one designer that I was working with, and he was like, "Brenda, you're just… That's not the way to think about it right now. Look at this example." And so trying to take in a… You know, trying to learn from people as well.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Um, and I guess, you know, like the time I spent teaching was so helpful in that regard. So, and I don't, I don't have a hangup of saying I don't know. Like, what are… Nobody's gonna come for my game developer card and, um- I, I would rather the team tell me that I'm not making sense than, like, Kotaku or something.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Um, yeah, I, I worry somebody's gonna come knocking to take my card. Hand it over, buddy. Yeah. Actually, you know, you having… When, when you talk about Train, that was the closest I ever felt to feeling like my game developer card was gonna get yanked. Say more about that. I mean, 'cause I, I look at that and I, I, I w- like wh- what inspired it?

and eventually it was, like, 3 Like, what made you go do that? What seems like, to me looks like- Kind of a, like I can't imagine you were thinking, "Hey, this is a business opportunity. I'm gonna make money." I'm, I'm thinking- No … you're, you're like- No way. I, I've- … I'm going to explore the academic or the, or the, what are the bounds of game design.

and eventually it was, like, 3 I wanna try something nobody's done before. Is that it? That was exactly it. Yeah. That was exactly it. And it was from a challenge, like people… Not, not a, the literal challenge, but y- the idea that, uh, you know, games had to be fun, that games could not also explore all the same subject matter as music, movies, books, poetry, photography.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Um, and I mean, we're all very serious about games here, you know? And I think that games are the greatest art form ever. But yet we get pushed and pigeonholed into this, "Yeah, but that's not fun." Well, you know, Eric Clapton's song Tears in Heaven isn't fun either. It's about a r- you know, I would s- one of the darkest moments in his life, I would say, mourning the death of his son, you know?

and eventually it was, like, 3 And so I really wanted to see could, could games do that? And to do that, I, I also found myself without a team for the first time. And I, I knew like I wanted to make something analog because I love the feeling of making something with my hands. Like the whole, all of it, painting it, um, building it, constructing it, it, that, that just, I love that tactile element.

and eventually it was, like, 3 Um, so around the same time as I was thinking about wanting to do this, right? There's a German board game designer, Reiner, I think it's pronounced Knizia. He's published so many games. Um, and I heard somewhere, though I've never been able to back this up, that he works on six games at a time. So I thought, "Well, you know what?

and eventually it was, like, 3 If I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do six games just to explore this. And I'm going to make six games about the darkest moments in human history." And so obviously you cannot, you cannot do that and not consider the Holocaust. Um- And so I f- as a game designer, it was, you know, what is the question I want this?

and eventually it was, like, 3 What is the question for this game?

And for me, the question was always how did people just let that happen? How y- And so it was about complicity. Um, and then, and then, you know, it's just m- figuring out how I was gonna make the game, how, how everything that was gonna be represented, wanting the number six for six million to be just everywhere, six tracks, you know, six panes of glass, six cards for each action.

And for me, the question was always So it's just, it's everywhere in the game. But when I finished making it, I knew I had made something as good as I could possibly make it. And, um, and John and I … Like, somebody else could have made it better, maybe made it better, may have made a different one. But for me, that was, like, as good as I could do.

And for me, the question was always Like, every single thing, every single thing had to be deliberate and intentional. Um, and, uh, so I remember talking with John about it, and John and I have been… I mean, we're spouses now, but he and I have been friends since the '80s as well. And, um, at the time, w- we were friends still. Well, we're still friends, we're just married now.

And for me, the question was always So that was kinda, kinda weirdly awkward, didn't it? Anyway, um, so I was talking to John about it- Don't worry, he w- he won't listen to this, I don't think. Yeah, he won't listen to this either. Actually, he probably will. Yeah. He probably will. Hi, John. Um, so I, uh, so I, I, w- I was… I talked about the game at, at a Project Horseshoe, which is this invite-only game designer, uh, uh, conference.

And for me, the question was always I don't think it's happening. It's not happening anymore. But I talked about it there, and Steve Meretzky, I don't know if you know Steve- Yeah … but he's, like, great guy. I've als- Yeah, I've known him forever, and he's like… So many game developers, when we get together, it's like, "What are you working on?" "Can't say."

And for me, the question was always "What are you work…" "Can't say." But I could, 'cause I was making this game on a smashed window. Um, and so Steve was like, "Man, you've gotta talk about that." So he extracts this promise from me that I'm gonna talk about it somewhere, about this series of games. Um, and I, like, I talked to some people about making them and they're like, "You're making a game about what?

And for me, the question was always Like, you can't make games about that." I'm like, "Well, you, but you can write a book about it. You can have a movie about it. You…" Anyway, so I agreed to talk about it, and I talked-- I gave a talk at the Triangle Game Summit in North Carolina, and there was a guy from The Escapist in the room, unbeknownst to me, and he wrote about it, about how a board game can make you cry.

And for me, the question was always And the news went everywhere. Like, it was all over Twitter. And, you know, I was seeing messages like, you know, "You need to be punched in the face. How the fuck could you make a game about that?" And I was like, "Career… I have just ended my career." And I really- Hmm … like I called, I called John, um, and then, like, Ian Schreiber is another, you know, frequent co-conspirator of mine who I talk with a lot.

And for me, the question was always Also, he's a hardcore system designer. And, um, and I'm like, "I've just screwed myself. Like, I'm, I'm glad I did this, but, uh, I've…" Yep, and then there was this, this tweet, which I have a screen grab somewhere, um, from David Jaffe, who said, "You made this? Fucking cool." And, and that was like, oh.

And for me, the question was always That sounds like a David Jaffe tweet. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, "Oh my God. I-- Oh my God. I'm-- They're not coming for my card." Um- And so, and, and like, I never, never… Like, Train at this point in time has hit, you know, it's kind of… Like, everybody-- It's, it's literally one of a kind. And I have been offered, you know, people have offered to buy it many times or offered to duplicate it many times.

And for me, the question was always And, and for that and all the games in that series, I just… No, that's not why I made them, and I feel like it would cheapen it. And I also like the idea, like, why do games have to be in quantities of a million or, you know, even 10? Why can't I… Why can't you just have a, a game? An installation, but it's also a game.

And for me, the question was always So, um, so anyway, I, I haven't duplicated. I haven't done that. But I'm-- Like, I, I think it's probably pretty safe to say that Train is what I will be, you know, most known for in the games in the series, which I never would have seen. Hmm. You know, at the time, like, at the time, people just, you know, th- yeah, they just wouldn't have…

And for me, the question was always It, it just, people weren't really tackling subject matter that was heavy like that. If they did, they were, like, set on fire. Yeah. That is, you know, it is really interesting, and I think, um, I think sometimes it might be hard to see the art when you're making the art. Um, but it is um, it is- 100% are, I think it's incredibly important for the industry.

And for me, the question was always And I, I am, I, you know, a- as we're talking about it, it is confusing why there isn't more. I think it's because how many game developers… Like, I was being supported, I was being supported by a college. I was teaching at a college, so my income was taken care of, and I had this space where I wasn't under a constant deadline to do whatever.

And for me, the question was always So I had this space to think and to read and, you know, to question what it is that I wanted to try to make, uh, and to, you know, who… Nobody… Well, maybe, um, you know, I live in Europe now. Maybe there is some kind of creative Europe funding to make weird games. But, like, imagine trying to pitch, "Hey, listen, I'm gonna make this board game, and it's gonna cost, in total, about 1,300, most of which was the typewriter.

And for me, the question was always And no, I'm not gonna sell it, and I'm not gonna do anything with it. And no, I'm not gonna duplicate it. In fact, that would feel gross. Like, would you, do you know, do you wanna fund it?" Like So- But yeah, I think the answer to that should be yes. I mean, there, you know, like it- Where are, where does art come from?

And for me, the question was always I think it is now- Yeah … because I periodically get pinged for commissions or whatever. Um, and so colleges and other places are funding that sort of stuff, which is great. I mean, games are, games are in a much different place than they were 20 years ago when I made Train. But, you know, it's, it's still, like I don't think I will ever hit a point where people talk about Train with any degree of reverence that I'm not like, just, wow, that's wild.

And for me, the question was always Yeah. So- It is. Where, where does it exist? Does it exist today? Where does it exist today? Yeah, it does. It's in, uh, it's in our office, and it's never, um, it hasn't… Interestingly enough, in our office it's never been displayed. Usually I have a, there's a, a crate that it's in, and the crate is shaped like a boxcar.

And for me, the question was always Um, and that's what Train is in. And normally if it's going to a museum or some other place to be displayed, it goes with that. The typewriter, it, I don't… I used to, we used to keep Train at home, but I don't have the typewriter in the same place because it's just, it, I mean, it's a literal Nazi typewriter.

And for me, the question was always I do not want a Nazi typewriter- Mm … in my home. Mm-hmm. Um, but we are, uh, just today, um, we're rearranging some stuff in the office. So we have a conference room available, so we're gonna actually put Train in a conference room so it'll be set up for the first time in our office, along with two other pieces.

And for me, the question was always So but yeah, it exists. And it's been, like, it's been, uh, it's been to a lot of different places at this point in time, and I n- I didn't make it with the intent that it was going to, you know, do all kinds of traveling. So it's a little worse for the wear. Um, I don't let people smash the glass anymore 'cause it's pretty much been pulverized, but- yeah.

And for me, the question was always What are the other two games you're put, gonna put it with? The other ones are The New World, which is the one that first started it, which is about the slave trade. My daughter, my daughter is, uh, mixed, so she's, uh, her father's from the West Indies. And so she asked one day about, um, she asked about the, uh…

And for me, the question was always She said she… Oh, no, I asked her what she had done in school that day, and she said she had learned about the Middle Passage, and she paused for, like, three seconds and said, "Can I play a game, Mommy?" And I was like, "Like, what?" Uh, because it was just like, it was a really serious topic to drop and then immediately bounce over to, you know, PlayStation 2.

And for me, the question was always So I, um, so I made her a game. I made her a game about families being separated and being put on boats and rolling a die to go across the ocean. It was a, it was super rudimentary, but it got the point. I mean, she painted all the different families. And, and after that I made, um, I made the Irish game, which is my own family's history, and then Train was the third game that I made.

And for me, the question was always And the Irish game is now, um, it's at Strong Museum of Play. It's actually Sheokon Law, but nobody knows how to pronounce that, so they just call it the Irish game, and now I'm calling it the Irish game. The Irish game. Yeah. That's cool. Oh, that's cool. It's at The Strong. Yeah. Nice. Um, amazing.

And for me, the question was always When, so these, these games, um, uh, when in, like, when in the timeline for you did you make these? Uh, two th- 2003 to probably 2009. There's one still that's hanging on there, which is just I have to finish. The rule set's done, I just have to finish painting all the pieces, and that's One Falls For Each of Us, which is about the Trail of Tears.

And for me, the question was always Heavy stuff. Yeah. Yeah, so John's John's summary is she makes games that make people cry. He makes games that make people yell, so that's why. We'll be right back. If you like what you're hearing, like and follow the show wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. Quick pause to say thank you for being here with us on The 4th Curtain.

And for me, the question was always We make this show because we love these conversations, but it only works because people like you listen. If you've been enjoying the episodes and wanna help us keep it going, you can support the show on Patreon. Just head to patreon.com/thefourthcurtain. That's patreon.com/thefourthcurtain, and you can support the show directly.

And for me, the question was always It helps us book great guests, produce more episodes, and keep building this archive of game creators. Totally optional, but if you're up for it, we'd really appreciate it. And either way, thanks for listening. Do you want your game to live forever? To supercharge it with immense powers of endless content, a buzzing gamer community, immortality, and coin?

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And for me, the question was always Discounts. Educational and advocacy-based resources. Mentorship. And solidarity across 160-plus chapters. To join the IGDA, visit igda.org/membership and use the code IGDA4THCURTAIN15, no spaces there. To get 15% off one and two-year memberships, as well as a student membership. Joining the IGDA is a great move for your career, and as a non-profit supporting everyone making games, it's a great move for the whole community.

And for me, the question was always Join today. And now back to the show After Wizardry and then maybe during this time, or sorry, after Sir-Tech and maybe during this time or maybe post this time and before Romero games, what was happening in there? Oh, a whole bunch of stuff. Like, I, I think probably the easiest way to summarize it is growth.

And for me, the question was always You know, I, I, I was learning so many things, including, you know, ways to do things, ways not to do things. Like, I worked on, um… I left Sir-Tech and went to, uh, the multi-named Infogrames, MicroProse, Infogrames, Hasbro, Atari in some order there that they- Oh my gosh same company multiple times.

And for me, the question was always Um, and so that's where I worked on D&D Heroes, and that, you know, that was wildly, like, super instructive for me. I, I had been designing hardcore RPGs at that point in time for a long period of time, but now I'm jumping into a role as lead for consoles, which is a v- just a really different beast, and that was like a, a plus two jump.

And for me, the question was always You know, I, I would've been… I- if I hadn't thought it through, I might not have done a plus two jump there, but, but I did, you know, and we, you know, the game ended up, um, the game, what a funny… I'm… It weirdly, the game didn't do great, but I remain proud of it for the Her- Herculean effort. So the original brief for the game was that it needs to be like Gauntlet, no leveling, no item collection, no quests, no nothing, which is, like, not D&D.

And for me, the question was always But whatever. And so with, I think we had six months to go until launch, and, um, there was a programmer on the team, Nathan, like, and he just said, like, "You know what? This, this game…" Like, we all knew, it's like without those things, it, it works if you're doing… if you're in an arcade and your play session is five minutes.

And for me, the question was always It does not work if your play session needs to be, like, an hour or more. Like, you're just beating your way through thi- it… So I remember Nathan, who didn't… he was a great coder but didn't say a lot, was just like, "You know, we need to, we, we need to do something here. We need to listen to Brenda. We gotta put in these things."

And for me, the question was always So with- A few months to go, we slammed in quests, store, items, character progression, stats. And it was, it was just like, I don't know how this, I don't know how. Like, there must have been no other choice because this, you know, the… If I were a producer, I would've been like, "I'm out." Um- Mm-hmm … but, but we did it, you know?

And for me, the question was always We did it, and it held together. Is it going to, you know, is it gonna win any awards? Probably not. Um, but the, but whenever I look back on that game, it's like, man, that, that was a, a miracle to pull off. So there was that, and then, um, you know, then I did some consulting. I worked, uh, with Michael Mendheim on the DefJam series, and I then was just having…

And for me, the question was always I was, I had been a lead, I don't know, for jeez, over a decade. So I just wanted to get back into the math, back into the spreadsheets, and be a happy system designer. So, um, so I worked with, uh, Michael, um, uh, on the DefJam series doing system design, various different systems, um, and then went into teaching for a while.

And for me, the question was always Um, and that, the industry at that point in time, RPGs were, you know, all the great RPGs were falling sideways, like the Ultima series, Might and Magic series, Bard's Tale series. It, you know, they, you were seeing all these different houses close up shop. And, um, and so I wondered like, well, what am I gonna do?

And for me, the question was always This is all I've ever done. So I There was an opening at Savannah College of Art and Design for a game design teacher, and I thought, "You know what? That'd be perfect." So I, because I- I think I'm not qualified to do anything else. All I've done my whole life is games. Um, and so I, so I, I had, I had so much fun, um, teaching.

And for me, the question was always And I've always enjoyed, like, really talented students can just… Any- if you're, if you're, like, short on passion for whatever you're doing, really talented students can make you question all kinds of things in all the right ways. Um, so while I was teaching, meanwhile, out in California, there's an explosion in social games, and I'm seeing, like, people like Bob Bates and Brian Reynolds and everybody going into social games.

And for me, the question was always And so I… That, you know, eventually, it, it was, it, it was really exciting 'cause it was a problem, it was a… I mean, now the problem is really well known. Uh, not the-- I don't mean to say… Sorry, the challenge. Um, but how do you, how do you do something that's asynchronous play with millions of people?

And for me, the question was always And I also was really attracted to the fact that for the first time, I was hearing people like me ask questions about games. Like my niece, have I ever played FarmVille? Like, my… What? She's asking- Right … you know, she's like hearing Like, "What do you do for a living?" Um, uh, I'm hearing loads of people who would normally not talk about games talk about games, and it was super exciting to me.

And for me, the question was always So I went out to, um, I moved out to the Bay, and I worked with, uh, originally first Slide, which was- Like one of the, uh, one of the PayPal mafia, Max Levchin, you know, who's just one of the, you know, the absolute great, um, Silicon Valley, you know, founders, startup leaders. He's amazing, and I should have stayed there and learned more from him, but instead I went and worked on Ravenwood Fair with John.

And for me, the question was always Um, at, I pulled him into work on Ravenwood Fair, uh, at a company called Lullops of all things. Anyway, we founded our own company. Uh, we founded Loot Drop, and we worked on everything from, oh, I don't know. Every- we worked on a bunch of different things, um, all in the social game space. Uh, and then we, uh, eventually we moved to Ireland.

And for me, the question was always So- Loot Drop is a great name, by the way. Isn't it? Yeah. It's perfect. We couldn't believe it was not taken. Um- Like the, the URL? It's so good. Yeah. I mean, we don't have the URL anymore 'cause we don't have the company, so we got rid- we sold the URL. Such a good name. But yeah, like what an obvious…

And for me, the question was always And we thought of it in the car. Um, we were driving somewhere. It's like, "What about Loot Drop? There's no way. Oh my God, it's available." Oh, God. We formed this. By now, by now, by now. Yeah. Um, Da- you know, it's interesting to hear you talk about your attraction to s- social games being driven from just connectivity to other people in your life, you know?

And for me, the question was always And, and, uh, I never thought about it that way, but it makes perfect sense. I think I'll, you know, in, at the ti- I remember when, like FarmVille came out and So like Facebook games, free to play games, they were all in some way being vilified by- Oh, yeah … the, you know, I don't know The mafia. I don't know.

And for me, the question was always Yeah. Yeah. The, like the core gaming- The gamerati … the core game market. But, like there were more people playing those games than other games. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it was also the first time in my career, like I, I won't say the job or, or who I was interviewing with, but, um, I did this one interview and they're like, "You know, we're concerned that as a woman you might not…"

And for me, the question was always Whatever, whatever. And I was like- Uh-huh. Um, and so it was the first time in my career that people had said like, "Oh, we would really like you, you know, to be a part of our team because you are a woman." And which… So I had never had it work in my favor. I don't know if it's all worked against me, but I'd never had it work in my favor before, where I was sought out because I was a woman, even though like, you know, like I, whatever it is they w- like, you know, I never was nor will I ever be like a…

And for me, the question was always You know, I don't know. I'm, I would never be the stereotype. Like, I love heavy metal, I love cars, I like… I'm a little bit too hardcore. I'm a super hardcore gamer right now as I've admitted, you know, with Balatro. I got C++ by the way- … last month. I completed Balatro and I'm not sure what to do with my life.

And for me, the question was always Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on. Rewind. You finished like the entire run of Balatro? Yeah. Like all the different card decks? Wow. I've finished all the different cards, yeah. All the different cards, and I have won the game on gold in every different deck, and I have a gold sticker on every card.

And for me, the question was always I have every single achievement you can get, all the challenges. Wow. All of it. It's completed. What are you playing on? On asses. This is, this is known as my- On your phone? … Balatro machine here. Yeah. ' Cause it's on everything. I play it on Switch. Yeah. I've got… And now the only thing left for me is the non-official achievement, which is Nan Inf, which is breaking it So that's with an unseeded run, which is like…

And for me, the question was always And then I don't know what I'll do with my, my game. Oh my gosh. That, how many hou- how many hours is that? Or a sequel. Fortunately- It's not worth counting … the iPhone doesn't track your hours. Yeah, okay. But- Wait, do you play, you play on the iPhone? Yeah, yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't do it on…

And for me, the question was always Like, I really wanted to play on iPhone. My eyes were, I couldn't see well enough. My eyes are not, like, the funny thing is, like, this is actually an older phone, but because at some point in time Balatro got out of sync when we went on a trip, like, I have two phones. This is the Balatro phone, and then I have another phone which is for, like, everything else.

And for me, the question was always Yeah. This one doesn't sync. Oh, wow. It's a game system. It's a- It's a console. Well- You have, like, you, you have to play on there because it's not, the save isn't in the cloud or something, so you can't- Yeah, exactly. Oh, wow. Yeah, eventually I'll just, like, put it, you know, the funny thing is, and I think I mean it, I was joking around with John, like, when I, when I finally man infant and I get a screenshot of it, like, I should just put the phone in a China cabinet, like, on a little easel.

And for me, the question was always Like the thing. The Balatro phone. Nice. Yeah, that's amazing. I'm, I'm, like, inches away from a 12-step in, uh, call for- … for Balatro. Sounds like it. Um, okay. I've heard, I think I've heard you talk about, um, sort of like the business and artistry of games, and you've been, um, you know, you, you, you took a journey through…

And for me, the question was always I, I don't know if it's fair to say you took a journey through the academic with, um, what you did with your analog games. Um, and you've taken, you know, you've, you've ridden the entire industry. So you've seen all the business models. You've been in social games, too, free to play, that part of, uh, game design, which sometimes can be Sometimes it's more business first, I guess.

And for me, the question was always I don't know Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it is. Um- When you're gonna give a game away for free especially- Yeah, then- … and you have to make your money after, then yeah, absolutely, the game design and the business, they have to be intertwined. It, it can't just be I wanna make this great thing first. And you want it to be great, but you also need to be paid.

And for me, the question was always It's, you know, it's really- It's… Yeah, I've, I've spent a lot of time thinking at the moment about that, just, you know, about where we as an industry have, have found ourselves, you know, that we have these, you know, we have platforms like Roblox and, and Fortnite, um, in that we give away things, you know, that…

And for me, the question was always And, and we've, we've conditioned a whole generation or two of players to expect free play. Um- Yeah … you know? And- Free video, free everything … and, yeah, you know, and that, and tied to platforms which want 20 to 30%. We're tied into engines, which I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, 'cause, you know, try to write your own engine.

And for me, the question was always Um, you know, but that's a percent, and we're, you know, there's lots of percents coming out everywhere. And so I, I spend a fair bit of time recently thinking how we can get those percents, like we at least as a studio can get those percents back. Have, have you come up with any answers? Tell me. Mm.

And for me, the question was always Yeah, tell the world. Um, some. Yeah, some, but they're, they've been com- not at all validated by the rest of the team that I'm working with, so… I, in fact, that's what I'm gonna be talking about tomorrow, so… But it's a private meeting, and you and your podcast cannot be there. Oh, okay. Um, uh, I'm very curious, though, if you'll share later.

And for me, the question was always I would be a, uh- Yeah … I would be a willing listener. I would… You know, I think one of the great things about where we're at right now, although I wouldn't… Like, as a company, they, everybody knows, you know, we were caught in the 2025 Red Wedding. Um, and, you know, our studio went from 110 down to about 10.

And for me, the question was always So, uh, you know, the… I would never have opted to get there, especially the way we did. Um, but I feel that's the way the industry is going. Um, and so, uh, so the, the nice bit, uh, I guess it's not nice, I don't want to say that. A silver lining is that, you know, as an independently owned studio that is not working, you know, with a major publisher that has an eyeball over every single thing that we're doing, um, like, I, you know, I can say what I want and do what I want and- Mm-hmm and, um, we, we tend to operate, we're risk-averse, um, you know, and we have other things that are able to cushion the company, like, for instance, merch Um, you know, so, uh, and we have an amazing, like our C-

And for me, the question was always uh, COO Brendan Dillon is just amazing. So, um, and we're, we're small now, but all the people who remain are, you know, exceptional coders who are actually coding and not managing teams of coders. Not that they didn't enjoy that, but man, they're coders. They wanna code. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, so we're actually in, uh, a really, a really good place, like a grateful place.

And for me, the question was always Um, and as, you know, as the CEO and the studio director, I have to, I have to think about how can this go wrong? How can I, how can I keep us alive? And I, I feel like I… You know, every time I feel like I- I'm gonna say something, and then when I say it, I'm gonna immediately suspect a meteor is gonna come through that skylight right there.

And for me, the question was always But, you know, I feel like we'll be okay for the rest of 2026. Like I, I feel really good about that, you know? And I feel like our studio is insulated even in 2027. Like I, I feel like we're okay. Um, and that's barring… You know, I don't, I don't foresee something that's gonna… Like, we will never, we will not be in a position to get hit by a red wedding again.

And for me, the question was always Good. Yeah. You have, you have control, you have some control over your destiny- Absolutely … not tied to a giant cruise ship that might decide to just turn into a butterfly at its own whim. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I- Yeah, that's good. That is a good place to be. It's such a good place to be. Yeah. And I 100% trust deeply everybody that I'm working with.

And for me, the question was always We've been working together for 10 plus years, and John and I, you know, nearly two decades now. So it's- Yeah … it's a really good place to be. That, that's, I, I think pr- you know, that's, that's the most important, is the personal, you know, the connections, the trust, all of that. How, you know, how, like I'm kinda curious how you're… Like what is, like- I ask this question because I think about my own day-to-day and how it's evolved over my career, and what my day-to-day looks like today is, looks much more like what my day-to-day looked like when I started than just parts in the middle.

And for me, the question was always Mostly because I am back in a place with a small team, super scrappy. Yeah. Every day matters. Everything that I do moves a needle. Um, it feels super great. It feels terrifying at the same time, and I kind of wonder, like, how, like, how are you doing? Like, how is your day-to-day, like, today? Sounds like… Does it, does it feel like with, like Sirtek?

And for me, the question was always Does it feel like something different? Um, it does- Does it feel like the unknown? It doesn't feel like Sirtek. Sirtek had its own vibe, and I was really, I was so young when I was there. Um, it, it, it just, it feels good. Like, the way you described it, I was like, man, I am so happy for you that you're there.

And for me, the question was always That's exactly how it feels for us. Awesome. Like, we, um… There's w- w- when, when the Red Wedding happened, um, after it, like, the, the group of us who had worked together, like the directors of the company, there was probably the most moving meeting. That sounds so weird to have to say. It was, uh, it, we were just talking, but the most moving whatever, we'll call it a meeting, but that still sounds weird, that I've ever been in was, was just, like, these super hardcore game developers, there were four of us, and, uh, and just, you know, people with, like, you know, tears in their eyes just saying, "Man, I just wanna, I just wanna keep working with you guys."

And for me, the question was always And, like, we just wanted to make something all together and stay together and keep that together. Um, and like you said, like, everything matters. So my day-to-day is, like- I was like, w- what I'm doing whatever needs to be done. Like, I've, you know, whatever needs to be done to keep, like you say, to keep things going forward.

And for me, the question was always Um, whether that's like today I'm looking at, uh, like some… Today I was looking at some social media stuff and some, um, marketing plans just before this, uh, just before talking with you guys. Um, planning like customer-facing events that we're gonna go to or player fa- customer-facing, playing like a, like, like MCM Comic-Con that's gonna be happening in London.

And for me, the question was always Um, looking at those, uh, those sort of things. What else? Uh, doing some writing, um, for John's game, and then around the edges I'm also just in keeping with, I make weird things that, that I don't sell. I'm also, um, I mentioned I'm working on a memoir that's all in games. Oh, yeah. So I was doing the loot drop table of professions today.

And for me, the question was always So, uh, and that'll, and, and that's also tell- I'm doing a PhD 'cause I'm just… I'm not, you may have gathered from my Balatro thing that I'm an achievement person. Yeah. And once I got the master's it's like, well, now I have to get the PhD 'cause I've got the master's and it'll be incomplete. It's Sid Meier's fault I'm this way, by the way.

And for me, the question was always All this levels. Okay. Yeah. Right on. Well, I think Sid Meier's had an impact on, uh, most of us. Yeah. Um, but, but, uh, hey, that's exciting. You're getting a PhD, for real? Yeah, from Trinity College in Dublin. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. I finished part of it, which is part of a critical essays about literary game mechanics and playable literature.

And for me, the question was always And then, uh, and then what I'm doing with, um, what I'm… In the memoir is a reflection of that. Yeah. So I'm well over 70% of the way there now. Fantastic. I kinda wanna know how you feel about, like, the, the, the future. I mean, I don't know, that seems like such a trick question, but I mean- Well, I mean, it's always a trick question, right?

And for me, the question was always Um, I've never, like whenever somebody asks like, "Where, where do you see the game industry in five years?" There were times like I, I knew I was gonna be wrong no matter what I said, um, because something was gonna ha- Like, who would've predicted Facebook games? Um- Who would have predicted Minecraft?

And for me, the question was always Who would have predicted, like, all the other, all the other massive changes that we've had? But now, you know, in the face of… It's like there's some radical changes happening, like all the money's being sucked out into AI. So there's just really not money. That's perceived as a much better bet than investing in games.

And for me, the question was always Uh, a lot of the investment is coming from countries that I wouldn't-- that, you know, like how will that affect the content of the games just in terms of like, um, in terms of, I don't know, what we're gonna be able to show in games. And I don't think so 'cause I haven't seen that, but then who knows, right?

And for me, the question was always Like, I mean, Western games tend to be, um, you know, certainly I'm in the house that was literally built by FPS, um, you know. But so will we see that kind of content changing? Um, and then, you know, in addition to all the money being sucked out by AI, how is AI gonna affect the industry? Um, and it's really, you know, game developers are in a really tricky situation because on the one hand, players hate… If I, if I just say for a second, I'm gonna be neutral and not voice any opinion, players hate AI.

And for me, the question was always And everybody funding games is like, "You need to use AI. You need to use AI to advance to make this happen as quickly as possible." Um, and that puts people who are not in charge of their own destiny, like us, in, uh… No, sorry, we are in charge of our own destiny, but it puts people who are not in a, you know, in a tricky situation.

And for me, the question was always Like I know developers who are like, "Yep, we're being asked to have our… have the, um, to h- to use AI to write our NPCs So I don't know, man. The industry's just in a, just in a whacked place. But like all that said, when I think about like the most difficult moments in my life, which had absolutely nothing to do with games, um, I would say to myself, like, "A year from now I'm gonna be better. A year from now I'm gonna be in a better place. A year from now I'm gonna know a little bit more."

And for me, the question was always And somehow that was able to trick me, you know- … or I can get through this. I can get through anything. And so I feel that way about the industry. Like a year from now I'm gonna know a little bit more. A year from now I'm gonna be better. And like I'm, I- I've been a game developer since I was 15. I will never be anything other than a game developer.

And for me, the question was always Um, John has zero intent to retire. He is gonna make ga- he makes games on vacation. He's- … he will always make games. Um, in, in, we just, we just recently went to QuakeCon, so I was so fortunate to be able to, you know, see the four of them together for the first time, the four id founders, John Carmack and, and my husband, Tom Hall, and Adrian.

And for me, the question was always Um, you know, and just like the love that those guys have for one another, that they have for players, that they have for technology, um, just, you know, like that, that's enough to fuel me for the next year just to see that, you know? And I, and I, you know, I, I, I think if, you know, if I'm f- I'm fully…

And for me, the question was always Well, like we'll remain in games no matter what, even if that's making like something like Sigil, uh, you know, and boxing those games at our kitchen counter, which we really did. Shrink Wrapper was on the dining room table. Right. Right. Um, yeah. I mean, so I, I feel people are gonna keep playing games.

And for me, the question was always Um, but I- we're in a really interesting place right now. Yeah. And hopefully s- people who are smarter than me are, you know, like I said I'm putting together- … this thing that I'm gonna talk about tomorrow about where are those percents going and how can we get some of those percents back. So I hope people who are smarter than me are asking those same questions.

And for me, the question was always Well, we should, we should all pool our answers because I think, um, I agree with you. I like, uh, I'm the same way. Um, I, it's, it's just a thing we do. The challenges, I feel to me like they are commercial challenges. It's never been a better time to, to be, um, a designer because you're just… There's never been more tools available, more p- more players, more platforms.

And for me, the question was always Like, our ability to reach an audience and to be creative is… I think the pressures are commercial, so. Yeah. We all band together- It's all free … we'll figure it out. Yeah. All free stuff to use. Yeah. But, you know, I'm a silly entrepreneur, so I can't be anything other than optimistic. Yeah. I mean, you have- You h- you have to be.

And for me, the question was always Like, we… If- Especially going back to, like, when everybody thought PC games were gonna die because the consoles were, you know- Yeah … the consoles were rising and, you know, Japan was making all these amazing games, and the Computer Game Developers Conference went to the Game Developers Conference.

And for me, the question was always And oh my God, how will we survive? Um, and we survived, you know. That's right. Our industry's died, like, five times, and it's never died. Who told you? Yeah. It's- It's a zombie. All right. Brenda, it's been a thrill, uh, getting to meet you and chat with you today. Thank you so much for hanging out with us.

And for me, the question was always Yeah, thank you. Thank you. We didn't… You know, I- Great stuff … I hardly got through my questions. I feel like we could chat for, for another few hours. Um, although we don't have time, but, um, I really do appreciate it. Um, best of luck with 26, 27, and beyond. Um, if, uh, if your Analog series goes on tour, where w- where would we find out?

And for me, the question was always Um, you would find… The… I would say just follow the… Go to romerogames.com, sign up for the newsletter, and everything is in there. Okay. Sign up for the newsletter, get some merch, and we'll see you around. And support independent game developers, whoever they are. Yes. Right on. Love that. All right.

And for me, the question was always Thanks, Brenda. We'll see ya. Thanks, Brenda. Bye. Bye. Do you know what she's working on now? I don't know exactly. I know that, um, Romero Games was working on a FPS- Yeah, I remember that … with Microsoft. Yeah. Microsoft, um, has been going through quite a bit of transition. Oh, gosh. S- sorry to segue, but, like… So I'm in, I'm at this conference last week, and, like, pretty much every day somebody was coming up to me and, like, "What do you think about this Bungie post?"

And for me, the question was always I'm like, "What post? I don't remember." Oh. And they're like, "What do you think about this Halo post?" I wasn't even gonna bring that up to you. I'm like, "What post?" That is drama. I'm just… What is, what is happening? Yeah. It is dra- So much stuff … you know, it is, and it's… That's not… It's like, you s- I don't know if you saw the Wolverine stuff.

And for me, the question was always Yeah. Like, there's that, and then there's, like… It, it just… Sony's been having a, like, bad time. 'Cause Bungie's Sony, right? Yeah. Well, so, I mean, so is Microsoft. Yeah. They, they're all having a hard time. You know who's having a good time? Who? Nintendo. They ha- they have been forever. Remember when they did the Wii and everyone was like… And it's like, "Okay, you guys laugh. We're making gajillions of dollars a day."

And for me, the question was always Remember how everyone was giving them crap? It's, it's one- They're always- … it- it's, you know, there's like two truths in video games. One is the PC is not dead, and the other is don't bet against Nintendo. Never. And y- you know what? Nintendo is kind of like… Remember when Biff gets that little, like, gambling book in Back to the Future?

And for me, the question was always Yeah. You know? Like the- Yeah … the Biff goes back in time and gives him the like- Uh-huh, uh-huh … the… That's Nintendo. Like, they have, like, the book. They have the, they have the, they have the answer key. Yeah. They, they, they have the answer key. They have the answer key to the world's game because they're like… Every time they l- it looks like they're making, like, a weird, like, This is dumb.

And for me, the question was always It's like, okay, as they cash their checks. You know? And rewrite culture. Yeah. Nintendo is awesome. I, I only have the Switch 2 now. Like, it's the only system I'm really playing on. Good, good call. I got Mortal Kombat 1 and 11 last w- I've been playing Mortal K- that's another game I've been playing is Mor- Mortal Kombat is so much fun.

And for me, the question was always It's like I shouldn't be having this much fun. But yeah, playing a lot of that. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Um, did you… Have you, did you ever check out Train? I guess there's, there's- No … no way to play it, right? No, there's not. I, I saw a documentary about it a while back. Like, uh… I don't know how I… I think it was, like, on…

And for me, the question was always I don't know if it was Vice. It was, like, one of those, like, you know, YouTube type documentary places. And I remember seeing, like, them talk about it. Or I saw it in, uh… I saw it somewhere. I, I, I've seen so many of those kinds of shows, you know, that they, where they talk about design and things like this and I don't remember where I saw it, but I remember seeing it there, and they showed the, the setup of the game.

And for me, the question was always You know? The, the- Yeah … the box cars and all that. Uh, but I've, I've n- I've never, I've never played it, never seen it. I might've seen it in person when I was in Chicago or San Francis. I don't know where it was but I didn't play it I don't know where it's been. Yeah. I've, I've like walked… I, I, I've encountered it, you know, in the, the soup of culture that is games.

And for me, the question was always Well, it sounds like it's gonna be going, maybe going back on tour at some point, so that would be pretty cool to go see. Um, you know, there's a, a, uh, the Strong Museum is in Rochester. Mm-hmm. And, um, I'm gonna be going to Syracuse in a couple weeks, which is pretty close to Rochester. I should go check it out That's the- Do you know…

And for me, the question was always That's Don, like, you know Don Daglow. Like, he's, like, on the board- Yeah … or whatever, you know? That's the game one, right. Yeah. Yeah, the video game museum. I can't remember- The Museum of Play. Yeah. I think it's, like, the largest museum collection- Yeah … about video games. The one in Austin's really good.

And for me, the question was always I think I sent you some pictures from there. There's a game you autograph at that one. That's, that's, that's the one, the one where you showed up in your Fourth Curtain T-shirt, and the guy's like, "What do you want?" Yeah. No, I was like- … "Hey, yeah, we have a, have a podcast. You, you might be interested in it." 'Cause, you know, he's at the game museum, you know?

And for me, the question was always And, and I'm like, "Hey, we interview a lot of really cool people." 'Cause he was… I think he was wearing a Mortal Kombat shirt, and I was like, "Dude, we just, we just interviewed, uh, Ed Boon." And he's like, "Oh, yeah? Well, you need to tell him to fix his games, man." And I was like, " Whoa, dude."

And for me, the question was always What? You know? And what's really cool about that is it shows you gamers. They're like, "I don't care who you are. I just wanna play your game," you know? You know what I mean? Like, the human element from, like, the, the audience is like, " I don't care who you are." Like, they It's like you care about the food, not really the, the person behind it.

And for me, the question was always Yeah. Uh, so anyways, um, I know R- uh, you know, Romero Games was working with Microsoft, and I- they're not anymore. And, uh, sounds like Brenda's cooking up some ideas for how to navigate the next chapter. Um, and they've sort of figured out the moment, which, which, which not every studio is necessarily navigating, so hats off to them, um- Yeah, it's a whole new world, man for figuring that out.

And for me, the question was always They're in Ireland too, right? Yeah. They're in Ireland. They're in Ireland, yeah. They have, like, a really good gaming community there type thing. You know how, like, Canada gives you money, and I just found out Texas does, too. Really? They have a program. Yeah. Huh. Um, so does LA? Does California?

And for me, the question was always Does Chicago? Mm. Chicago has that school, right? You know, Chicago has some sort of entertainment tax credit. Um, but, uh, I've never accessed it. Maybe it's time to do a little research. It's a really weird time, man. Like, like what you brought it up, what a way to end the episode. It is a little depressing.

And for me, the question was always Geez. Stop, man. Like, it's like the Microsoft thing, the Wolveri- like, I wanted Wolverine to be awesome, and it's like- Look, we got- I don't, haven't played it yet, so maybe it is. It's just the reception's really bad … we got GTA VI and we have, uh, Zelda both coming out next month, so. Zelda's gonna be good.

And for me, the question was always Zelda's gonna be great. GTA cannot live up to it. So there, there is gonna be a lot of negative press on GTA. Calling it now. I- A lot … okay, let's, let's- Will it make a bajillion dollars? Yes. Let's get, let's get a little cow-shy going there. I think the reception is gonna be, uh, above expectation.

And for me, the question was always Really? ' Cause I think a lot of people are the eight years of hype or whatever, 17 years of hype, or however long it's been. Yeah. The other one is still good. I think they're gonna- They didn't have to make this one. The other one is still a fun game. But the… Yeah. Yeah, I think Zelda, the rem- You're talking about the remake, right, of Ocarina?

And for me, the question was always Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna be freaking… Did you see the video of it? Yeah. Man, when I saw that, I was like, "All r-," my credit card was al- Like, I was holding my credit card. I'm like, "How did this end up in my hand?" Yeah. There go- What- What slot do I put this in? Yeah Where did I get it? Where does it go?

And for me, the question was always Hold it to the camera. Okay. Dude, it looked amazing. Let's go. It looked like AI-rendered, like a r- AI-rendered game engine. I don't know if you saw the World of Warcraft stuff that they showed, where they have that, I don't know what it's called, DDSR, ER, whatever it's called, where it, like, the AI, like, makes it look better.

And for me, the question was always Yeah, like real time. Dude, it looks, it looks, it looked like that. I'm like, "That looks like a fake…" 'Cause I've seen people- … do, like, AI renders of, like, Ocarina of Time, and it looked like that. Amazing. You know, I was watching it on a little screen, too, so it kinda helped it, but it looked amazing.

And for me, the question was always All right. Well, so there's some happiness to end the episode on. Thank you everybody for joining us for this week's episode of The Fourth Curtain. Hope you enjoyed our conversation with Brenda Romero. We sure did. Yep. And we shall see you next time. See you on the next one. Thank you for listening to The Fourth Curtain podcast.

And for me, the question was always Visit us at thefourthcurtain.com to find our monthly newsletter and support the show via Patreon. The Fourth Curtain podcast is a production of Fourth Curtain Media. Lovingly edited by Brian Hensley of Noisefloor Sound Solutions. Video production by Sarkis Gregorian. Production support by Kimya Taheri, with community management by Doug Zartman and art production by Paul Russell.

And for me, the question was always Thanks again for listening.

The Wizard of Wizardry Brenda Romero

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