Episode 10 - Holy Hunger with Mait & Tiffany Hudson

0:02 Welcome to the Jesus Podcast with Michael Kulianos. Mate and Tiffany, thank you for being here.

0:10 Thank you.

0:10 It has been such a gift to have you guys. I was speaking to the team yesterday, and they have all deeply enjoyed having you. We're super honored. We're on the heels of Pastors and Leaders Conference. We actually finished last night.

0:23 Yep.

0:24 And I just I just want to compliment you guys for a little while. There were a few times, well, a bunch of times I had to pass you guys on the way up to the platform. Every time I walked by, you guys were worshiping. You were in every session. The way you're carrying yourself is very beautiful. Wow and like Jesus.

0:40 And so we just want to thank you for taking the time to come. And Tiffany, you led beautifully. Thank you. You really did. Thank you. And I know it's your first time with us. I hope it'll be the first of many.

0:51 Me too.

0:52 And hopefully you felt at home. Absolutely. You know, like it, like you weren't a guest.

0:57 Yeah.

0:57 Yeah. It was real, real privilege to have you guys.

1:00 We feel so honored. Like, truly, this has been such a marking weekend. I'm sure we'll get to talk about it. But I just, we are so humbled that we got to be here.

1:09 Wow. Wow. Genuinely. Yeah. You guys have said that, like, oh, you guys were in every session. I'm like, I would have bought a plane ticket, rented a car, drove, sat like it's just what the Lord is doing in our experience with Jesus' image and you guys. So it's this weird miss it. Yeah, it's this weird paradigm where people are thanking us.

1:29 And I'm I don't I genuinely don't know how to respond because I'm like, thank you that we get to be here. And you got us a seat. Like it's just like we're blown away. So we're we're not just saying this, but we're honored, and we're gonna flip this podcast on you because we have nothing to say. We love you and we listen to your teachings in this church.

1:52 Yeah, we're gonna interview you.

1:54 Yeah, we're like you try to ask me a question, I have no idea.

1:56 It's funny you said that. I was driving over here and I I I felt like I heard in my heart, don't let this be an interview.

2:01 Yeah.

2:02 And so yeah, we'll ask each other questions though. Yeah. I know there's a lot that I want to learn, and a lot that I'm sure our our our listeners and viewers wanna want to learn about you guys. But I think I think what I like to say is whatever the Lord's doing in you now, I just encourage you to fight to maintain it because it's very beautiful.

2:20 Wow.

2:21 I love that you travel together. I love that you you have a two-year-old. Yeah, we do. And tell us about your two-year-old.

2:27 It's like changed our world upside down in the best way. It's the second we had a kid, it was like everything that used to matter doesn't matter quite as much. Our priorities just went fully flipped upside down, and it's just the joy of our life right now. Like this stage is so fun. I'm like, it's not terrible twos, not at all.

2:45 We're like enjoying it so much. Yeah, it's stretching, of course. Very like, yeah, yeah, sleep is like not as good as it used to be, but it's just like so fun. We we love it.

2:54 Yeah, I love being a dad so much, like it's changed my life in so many perspectives, and I'm sure you relate, but the understanding of God as father, yeah, and me as a child, becoming more childlike and now having a clear example of what that is. Yeah, the amount of love and care that I feel for him, yet he does nothing for me.

3:20 Yeah.

3:20 And I just want to continue that over and over again. It's been the most beautiful experience.

3:26 Yeah, I remember when I had when we had I didn't have Theo, Jess had Theo. But some respect on the exactly. Um, when Theo was born, he was probably nine months at that time. We were living in California, and we were living in this little apartment, and he used to love it when I would pick him up and put his back on a wall, like really, really high up on the wall.

3:47 And I remember doing that once, and my eyes closed for a second, and I just pictured the father offering the Lord Jesus as I'm holding my son. Wow, and I thought, there's no way I could ever do that. And the father loves the son much more than we love our children. Yeah, what a wonderful Lord we serve.

4:08 And you're right, like the love of God becomes so much more real to us when when when children are given to us. I remember when Theo was born, as he was coming out, my mom was in the room, and I was super freaked out because I had never been around anything like that. This is crazy, remarkable. Yeah, I was in 20, gosh, he's he's 20 now, so yeah, I was 28.

4:27 My mom was there, and I go, Mom, are they a lot of work? Because I was like in panic mode. She goes, your whole life. What am I doing? As he's coming out, that's what you asked. Yeah, I was like, I totally like you just it all just started coming so fast.

4:42 It's so funny.

4:43 And and you're right, like my schedule, like doing whatever I wanted to do is now done.

4:49 Done, done. Gonzo, yeah.

4:50 Yeah, but they are such a gift, and and and you guys travel all together. So I'm sure you've had some good sleepless nights in hotel rooms. Yep, last night.

5:00 You just you just don't plan for those things. You're like, oh, this trip is gonna work, but you don't think the kid's gonna be sick, or you don't think, yeah, they the time change, all those things like At 3 a.m.

5:11 he's over the crib going, dad, dad, mama. Come, come. I'm like, bro, what what are you what are you doing right now? We're sleeping totally.

5:21 And you can't explain it to them.

5:23 And then you just grab them and hold them, and then you go, Oh, this is kind of sweet at the same time.

5:27 Uh it's just I was telling Mate earlier, I said, uh, our doctor in Southern Cal when Theo was born, was an amazing doctor. His name's Dr. Sears, he's legendary, he wrote like all these books on nutrition for children, kind of like a hybrid approach for like a holistic approach to raising your children nutritionally, and and and the way the doctor relates to that.

5:48 So he goes, Look, if you have to fly to Florida, this was Theo's first time on a plane. He goes, if you have to, it was like it's like a five and a half hour flight from LA. Yeah, so we were nervous. Jess and I were like, Oh, we don't want to be those parents. Yeah, you know, which I'm sure you've been those parents a few times, right?

6:02 Yep. That's the worst.

6:04 Absolutely. Like, sorry.

6:06 So he goes, Look, give your son a little Benadryl. Now it'll help him rest and calm down on the flight. You can give him this kid's Benadryl. He goes, but there's there's only one percent of children that it has the opposite effect on. So we're like, oh. So we give them the Benadryl while we're on the tarmac, the plane takes off.

6:23 The team will love this.

6:24 This is sad.

6:25 He grabs a water bottle, he's two, and throws this seed, like almost crow hops, throws a seed like in the back of a guy's head four rows away. Oh, just wired, yeah. Just and then his eyes get huge and he's jumping. The dude turned around.

6:43 Uh-oh.

6:44 I was like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be a flight from the pit. Yes. This is horrible. He made into the 1%. Yeah. Now he's so chill. You see him behind keys, you just cool. Totally.

6:55 Yeah.

6:56 I want to talk to you guys. I mean, the Lord's really been using you. I'm sure life has been moving uh at a different pace. Maybe sometimes it feels like it's moving at a pace that you're trying to tame at times and not let it get the best of you. I remember when that started happening for us, it was a real it required a lot of intentionality with the Lord.

7:15 Yes.

7:16 And then getting with people that knew more than me.

7:19 Yes.

7:20 And you know, it's one it's interesting. The the older you get in the Lord, the more you ask for help if you're smart. So I remember what I had to fight for, what I had to say yes to and say, you know, and always say no to. And you kind of with the Lord and with people you trust, you kind of build a way of doing life.

7:37 Yeah. When life picks up. And I remember somebody when I when we moved to Reading for a year just to rest, because we I had been going so hard. Jess had come down with a um an insomnia issue for like three years. She slept an hour and a half to two hours a night. Oh my goodness.

7:54 And then while being a mom?

7:56 Oh, yeah. With three kids. Oh. And then this was 2016 when we moved. And then um, then that developed like a heart arrhythmia.

8:05 Oh wow.

8:06 So, you know, I was flying all over the world, seeing people touched by the Lord and healed and saved. And then my wife was a wreck. And then if you don't sleep, it's gonna mess up your emotions. Of course. You're pretty done. I mean, years of it. So then I came home one day and she was she wasn't responsive.

8:22 Her lips were blue, she had she was gone. And because of like the arrhythmia, and like uh she was having breathing issues. Thank God I came home. Yeah, paramedics came, we took her into the ER, and for a little while she had to wear this vest that alerted the emergency room if her heart went awry. Wow, it was tough.

8:37 Wow.

8:37 So I had had a few dreams that we moved for a season to take a deep breath in God. And I brought that to some people at the ministry, and they're like, I don't know if that's a good idea. Jesus image has a lot of momentum. And then someone told me when I was pondering the decision, they said, What good is momentum if you're heading into a wall?

8:57 And I was like, that's a good point.

8:59 That's so profound.

9:00 Yeah. So we packed up and moved and lived out in Reading for a year. The first night we moved, Jessie had an experience with the Lord in a hotel and she slept eight hours. We didn't even, no one even prayed for us.

9:12 Goodness.

9:13 And to this day, I mean, that girl, she could sleep 20 hours if she wanted. It's it's a miracle. From that point on. Yeah.

9:19 Wow.

9:20 From that day on.

9:21 Whoa.

9:22 It's it's incredible.

9:23 Thank you, Lord.

9:24 But I remember kind of being in the season you guys are in where you need to remain thankful, but you know. So I wanted to talk to you guys about that. Yes. Kind of how you're dealing with that. And I wanted to say, before we reached out to invite you, I had heard what you've been writing on the blood.

9:40 Some of our team sent it to me. That meant a lot to me because I could tell it wasn't like a catchy idea. And it's what the spirit's saying. Yeah. You know, returning the church to this revelation of the blood of Jesus. Yes. And then I talked to Steph and Mitch, and I said, What how what do you think it would look like if we invited Tiffany?

9:58 And they said she's humble. Oh. And then Steph goes, and her husband is so meek and kind. And that's why we invited you. We didn't invite you because of your voice. It is beautiful. But um, I just wanted to let you know that uh all of that combined with the way you led was really a blessing. Thank you.

10:18 So we're super privileged to have you guys. So before we get into all that, how did you guys grow up? Did you grow up in Christian homes? And where did you grow up? And then take me into how you guys met.

10:29 Absolutely. A little bit different stories. I grew up totally ministry family. Okay. Family was evangelist for 13 years. No way. Lived in an RV, just like 40 foot camp. Yeah, like in Pennsylvania? Well, just all over. We didn't have a house. It was like we lived in an RV. Wow. Church to church, state to state.

10:46 Exactly. We've connected on this. And just did like grandparents were there as well, cousins were there. So it's kind of like a big family circus almost, but like in ministry. Wow. So that's how I grew up. A G. A. G. Yep. Okay. Grandfather's actually like kind of like a legend in like gospel music. Wow.

11:03 Yeah. So he's like super successful, like new Elvis, all this stuff. Um, won awards, all this stuff, but like just was a legend, and then felt called from the Lord to sell everything he owned, buy an RV and hit the road with our family and just do ministry. So it's just a beautiful like legacy of faith and heritage that was really passed down.

11:23 So um after that, my parents felt called to just like plant a church, little town of Pennsylvania through a series of miracles that the Lord did, gave us basically keys to a a fully paid off church that didn't have a pastor. My dad was a pastor that didn't have a church.

11:39 Can you guys lay hands on us here?

11:42 It was like just absolutely the Lord. And so growing up that way, like seeing the provision of the Lord, we lived, you know, paycheck to paycheck, getting us to the next church to then just be given land to build a home, then be given a church. Like it was just miracle after miracle that my family walked in.

12:00 So I grew up witnessing such like I don't know, just miracles of the Lord. That was my upbringing. So then I grew up as a pastor's kid and I that's where I fell in love with the Lord. That's where I learned the presence of God. So I I have this story, which I'm so humbled and grateful. I have the story where growing up that way just made me fall in love with God's church, fall in love with Him.

12:23 My church also went into like full-blown revival growing up, which was like When was it?

12:28 Like what which years would this be?

12:30 So I was probably high school. Okay.

12:32 So early 2000s, I think. Uh how old are you? Yeah.

12:35 I'm 30. Okay. So yeah, why I can't even 1995. Oh my god. 95. I still am in the 1900s, which is cool.

12:44 Really? Oh my god.

12:46 No, so I was in high school, my church went into revival. And I always joke because I'm like, it's not like we had pre-planned services and called them revival services. Like out of nowhere for 28 days, we went into revival. So at noon and at 7 p.m. every day we met for prayer and God was moving, miracles happening, all this stuff.

13:04 So I was like deeply marked as a child for like the Lord, like in a way that I just could never turn away. Not that I've lived perfectly, but that was just close to it. No, like that was just God, God's kindness to mark me in such a way at a young age. That that's um my background. I know I'm kind of hitting up.

13:23 You were in high school by then?

13:24 Yeah, high school.

13:25 What kind of things were happening in the church during that outpouring? Do you remember anything specifically?

13:29 Yeah, I remember, I mean, demons cast out. And I I grew up AG, it's like somewhat Pentecostal, but it wasn't necessarily like that. Deaf ears opened in the meetings, so many salvations, just kids from my high school like flooding the altar. Wow, like those type of memories. And I was I was in high school, like I was kind of in those years where you're like, it's all a little scary to stand up for Jesus.

13:51 Like you don't know. But I remember like the preacher being my dad wasn't preaching, it was like an evangelist we had in. He like called an altar call, was like, Who wants more of God? And I like saw the some of the football team was there, and I'm like in high school, but I like did not care of who was there from my high school.

14:09 I was like running down to the altar because he was just moving in such a way that yeah, you just couldn't deny it. So, yeah, I was I I've been recently reflecting on that. Like, that was so impactful in my childhood.

14:21 Yeah, wow, what a blessing!

14:23 What a blessing, mate.

14:24 What about you?

14:25 Very different. Um, my my dad's a chaplain, so he was a chaplain for Supercross and Motocross, and then like Hendrick Motorsports, so NASCAR. And so my parents split when I was six.

14:38 And so your dad was a chaplain for Motocross, yeah. I went to elementary school with Ricky Carmichael, yeah.

14:43 Ricky, yeah, yeah.

14:44 That's cool.

14:44 Now he's like Ricky Carmichael, Jeremy McGrath, like all those guys. And so, but that was weekends that he was traveling to the races, and so he was such a great, or he still is such a great example of what it looked like to live out the Christian walk, yet be so gracious and how he taught that to me.

15:03 And you all grew up in North Carolina, yeah, in Charlotte.

15:06 Yeah, and so honestly, it was when he was in town we would go to church, and then other than that, I wasn't really involved in church or grew up, but I kind of grew up like, yeah, I'm a I'm a Christian because my dad's a Christian and I know better type. Uh, and so by the time I hit, you know, 10, 11, 12, got into skateboarding, and skateboarding culture is very different than church culture.

15:29 Um, and so just went down that path of drugs, girls, all that kind of stuff, um, up until I was 16. And this whole entire time, I always felt like what I'm doing doesn't feel right, yet it's what everyone's doing. So I'm not going to go against that. Um, looking back now, I feel like it was a the early prayers of my dad uh through the nights and other family members that that was just pulling me constantly.

15:59 Like I remember a specific example, which is kind of a funny example, but I got like really high one night and all my friends were over and we were drinking, got really high, and I just like ran into my room. Bought it off Tiff.

16:10 Yeah, I introduced Tiff.

16:12 Yeah, she put she put me on. She was your dealer. Yeah, I ran into our garage because I remembered when we were skating in there, I saw a children's Bible in there from my like from my upbringing. And I just opened the Bible and I just said, like, Lord, I want you because I don't like how I'm feeling right now.

16:32 And I was like hoping to open the Bible and it'd just be like boom, and it just like hits me. And it was some random chapter, and I I'm not even that good at reading. It was a kid's Bible, yeah. Like pictures arc of like picture like nothing relating to my situation. I was just like, okay, that didn't work.

16:50 And so, but it was just like funny moments like that as I was growing up.

16:53 Well, the drawing of the line.

16:54 Yeah, and and then at a young life camp when I was 16, it just hit me. My drug dealer at the time was going to this camp. So for the summer, I was like, all right, well, I don't have access to the drug dealer was at the camp. Yeah, it was like dealing at the camp. No, it was just like the thing to do in high school, the like the summer camp.

17:11 But you said like on the way, you guys were like on the bus up to camp, like getting high.

17:15 Yeah, like we like had so different, yeah. And wow, yeah, to church camp. Yeah, to the church camp.

17:22 I wouldn't have been friends with them.

17:24 Yeah, we joke, we're like, we don't want that at JI's youth camp, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a suggested protocol. Um, but uh at the end of the camp, like literally the Lord wrecked me. And I remember sitting out uh in this field, and I was just like, all right, Lord, I'm I think I'm ready to to give my life to you.

17:42 Like I've I've experienced you this week. Can you just show me something? Like I gotta see you. Um, and so I look up at the sky and waiting for a shooting star or something, and absolutely nothing happened. But I remember sitting there and like literally we're laying in a field, and I felt his presence just wow in the most graceful, beautiful way.

18:04 And from that moment, I just could not deny that feeling and that experience. So, like it was a true encounter, yeah. And in like all the prayers, all the upbringing of like being around it, it was just like this culmination of this encounter that I was like, I can't ever go back. Um, and so from 16 to the end of like high school into college was just a journey of going, I I don't want to do this stuff anymore, and losing friends and being feeling weird in these, you know, parties and and relationships, and to the point where I was 21 and I was just like, I'm going after God, like I'm on fire.

18:45 I want to, I wanna go all for it. Went to ministry school and at Hillsong. At Hillsong, yeah, which was a beautiful experience. Got to meet some of like my best friends and got to see like, oh wow, because I'm I come from skateboarding background, I was um video for that as well. And so I I got to see like, oh wow, the church can create art and it and it can connect with people like me, yeah.

19:11 Um, that that don't maybe relate in that way. And so that inspired me. I was like, I want to do stuff like that for people. Yeah, and so then now did that. How'd y'all meet? That's where I I did an apprenticeship at elevation. Okay, she had just finished doing her apprenticeship.

19:27 Yep.

19:28 Um, I was dating you went there from SEU after college.

19:31 I went to elevation to do an apprenticeship.

19:33 Okay, and after high school, you went to SEU.

19:35 After high school, I went to SCU.

19:36 Okay, and then were you there when David and Alicia were there?

19:40 I was. Okay. I had a class with David.

19:42 Oh, you did? Yes.

19:44 I was telling Jess we had a group project together.

19:47unknown Yeah, yeah.

19:48 When David's not around, I become Jesse's punching back verbally.

19:54 Corporately, which is so we like to keep him around.

19:57 Technically on the org chart, I'm Jess's boss, but it doesn't sound like that in the service if anyone wanted to know.

20:03 It's amazing.

20:04 So you go to SEU after high school, and then you do an apprenticeship in Charlotte at Elevation. Yeah, and then you're there after Sydney. Yeah. Yep. Because that was my that was like my local church.

20:14 Got it.

20:14 You got actually got kind of saved at elevation. Okay, yeah.

20:17 I from so when I was 16, I gave my life to Christ. I was like, I I think I'm supposed to go to church now. So I would wake up on Sunday mornings and just drive until I saw a church sign. And so I would go in. Like I remember I walked into this one church and everyone's wearing suits and no one really looked like me.

20:33 And and I literally walked in, walked to the bathroom, and just went home. Cause I was like, I just don't belong here. I'm wearing like skate clothes and stuff. And so yeah, I found elevation and I got to this place. I was like, let me just at least see what it's about because I'm falling asleep in all these other churches.

20:47 And they were releasing like a kid's album, and I was just, I literally just got so impacted that that morning I was like, this is what I've been searching for. And so yeah, I come back from college, do the apprenticeship. I was dating a girl at the time and for four years. For four years.

21:02 So when I saw the new guy, I was like, he's so cute. I have a crush on him. But then I found out he had a girlfriend, so I was like, never mind, not gonna think about it.

21:10 Yeah.

21:10 Until they broke up one day.

21:12 Why are you smiling? You went, Because and then you smiled.

21:16 Because like four years is like kind of like serious.

21:19 I was that was like through my journey of sanctification, yeah. And so yeah, that's a whole nother story. But uh we broke up and I was just like, all right, Lord, when I came to elevation after we after I met her, I was just like, This is the type of girl I want to marry. I I met Tiff. I was like, this is the type of girl I want to marry.

21:39 Um, I never thought I could marry her because I I know my history and I know her history from meeting her. I was like, she would never like someone like me. And I prayed that prayer. I was like, Lord, I just want to marry someone like Tiff. It was kind of it's kind of weird looking back, but I was late there late one night and I was at her desk.

21:58 I just walked past her desk and I I Just like I was like, yeah, it's kind of weird, but I was like, I prayed that at her desk. Um, and you lay the hands on the desk. I literally know how this works, but I just want this like a no look. Yeah, like just a little drive-by, a drive-by prayer. Um and I said, I was like, Lord, I'm gonna commit to singleness.

22:22 I'm gonna just get good with you, and three months later we were dating. So it wasn't a very long time. For now, what happens? You lay hands on a desk. Yeah, it's just boom, boom.

22:33unknown I know.

22:34 We went to a rodeo, our first date and literally have been hanging out ever since. Yeah.

22:40 Wow, pretty sweet.

22:41 Yeah, you have a humble spirit. Thank you. It's beautiful to see. It really is. Both of you do. Thank you. It's really wonderful. And so now, you know, I actually I on the way here, I I really felt the Holy Spirit impress upon me to ask two questions. And and these are the two questions. Uh, why did you come down to the pastor's conference?

23:00 Pastor's leaners conference. For one, and then two, what do you want? Like, what are you yearning for in the depths of your soul? Well, not from us, but like what I love that. What's eating at you? What what are you aching for? Amazing. That's what I heard on the way here.

23:16 Yeah.

23:17 I know I could have given you a very light question. Yeah, yeah, super light.

23:20 No, I I love this question. I would say, first of all, when we got invited to come here, I was super blown away because I I've shared this with you a little bit, but um, we kind of know John Wilde's from college. So um one year he somehow sent us a link to Jesus 21. I don't know. So we we were married, we were like freshly married.

23:43 We sat on our couch this weekend in our little house and we watched the entire weekend. It's like we didn't leave the house. We watched the entire Jesus conference and sobbed, like sobbed the whole time of like God just wrecked us. The things you guys were preaching, the things the wrestle we are finding ourselves in, like just it ignited something that I think was asleep in us.

24:05 Like, honestly, like, and I'm not trying to give all credit to like this ministry, but it was a huge turning point in our walk, truly. Um, and so the next year I felt like the Lord said we need to be there. So we go to Jesus 22. I don't know what year it was, it was outside, and we attend it and we get radically marked by the Lord again.

24:27 It was out on the campground field? Yeah.

24:29 We were just back with all the people. And I remember like Heidi Baker was preaching, and it was kind of like I at first I was like, what's happening? And then she was like having us all kneel down and give our lives to the Lord again, and then laughter just filled the field. It was like we were filled with the joy of the Lord.

24:47 It just was so marking. And again, everything you guys preached was just like hitting us. And so, all that to say, we felt so impacted by this ministry to a point where we're on the plane coming here, being like, How are we coming here? So, why are we here? Like, why did we say yes? It was like, to me, it was God's kindness of like, yeah, I don't know why we're here.

25:10 Like, I pray that we could deposit and pour out. I pray that we can be that, but I also feel like from the Lord, it was like, thank you, God, that we get to be here. That's why we're in every single session. It's like we need to be here. What a refreshing community team member. And I hope people hear this, but the behind the scenes is even more beautiful.

25:31 Every team member, every team member, every conversation we had, we felt so loved and cared for and honored in a way of like, thank you for that we can be here. Like, truly. So that's my answer to that first question. Like, why we're here. I couldn't believe we got to be here. Yeah, thank you for having us.

25:49 Oh my gosh.

25:50 What an honor. We've learned so much, truly.

25:53 I remember, I remember I was in the kitchen and you were like, Michael Kullianos just messaged me and I was like, What? I was like, Oh my gosh, he's reaching out to you.

26:01 Like, I was just like, Yeah, Jess said that when I texted her.

26:11 No, it's really special. But do you want me to answer the next one?

26:15 Yeah, I I I want to know, like in the most inner recesses of your being, what are you craving and crying out for, like even when you're not talking?

26:27 Wow. I also want to hear your answer to this. I would really love to hear that.

26:31 Sure. But I I'll answer that. I just felt like you guys are in such a a pivotal place and an important place in your life. Like, and I think what you're feeling is indicative of what a generation is feeling. Because I'm hearing it in my children. I'm wow. Something very holy is happening. Yeah. And I think that is in the in the both of you.

26:53 Wow. I mean, I think I long for the Lord more than I ever had. I think I want him more than I ever have. I think I love him more than I ever have. And so of course it's like the yearning for him. Of course, it's that I desire and long to see. I desire, I think I'm put on this earth to like see the bride purified and see the bride unified.

27:15 Like I think we get to travel, you get to travel to all different types of places that feel, I don't want to say opposed. That's not the heart of it, but different and separate. That I really do feel like the Lord is unifying. And I think I really burn for that. Like, I think I burn for the unity of God's church.

27:35 I think I burn for the purity of God's church. We get to see all the good and the bad different places we go. And it's like, I think I, I think I grieve over how lightheartedly we take his presence. So yeah, I think I I think I burn for that. I think I'm yeah.

27:54 Yeah, there's a it's weird because I feel I'm 29. I feel at such a young age we've been exposed to a lot, which has been cool, which has been fun and amazing. Um, but it's it's shown us a lot and a lot of stuff that I think hoped was different. The more that we got welcome in, welcome into, the more I just felt like, oh Lord, I want to, I want to learn less of this and be less of this.

28:24 Um, and it's it's it's interesting to respond to or talk about because you don't want to cast the first stone. But I think that's what impacted us to answer both questions. And one was for the first time when we were listening here, sitting on the couch, I felt this sense of oh, there is order and structure that is helpful and challenging and a way to go about this.

28:50 Things that we let creep in that we shouldn't just let that thing creep in. And I literally think from that moment my appetite grew.

29:00 Appetite, yeah.

29:02 And I tasted something that I couldn't untaste.

29:05 Yeah.

29:06 Um, and we tasted that. And so it's been this really weird experience where it's in the flesh, we have like done the things, yet I'm hungrier and less satisfied than I've ever been. And so I think at my innermost being, what we're like so longing for is clear scripture, clear worship, clear conviction.

29:31 Someone to tell me, hey, you're not doing this right this way. Here's how you do it. And I think I'm I'm like, we're like, how do we do marriage right? How do we raise a son right?

29:43 Well, yeah, based off how do you have influence, right? Yeah, like we're so we do not have all the answers. We're learning. Like how do we do that?

29:50 We didn't ask, we didn't really even ask for that, and yet we're in it, and how do we steward that, you know? And so it's just yeah, it's a craving that that we're both on fire for and we don't know the answer.

30:04 Yeah, I think when you when you bump into a brother Yoon or Pastor Peter, so he to me here's the scary part it's a it's an honor, but it's scary. Um, the encouraging aspect is that we get to be around them.

30:17 Yes.

30:18 And God never teases us, yeah. He exposes us to invite us, he exposes us to people to invite us.

30:24 Wow.

30:24 So that's the beautiful piece. I I guess both sides are beautiful. Let me say it another way. The other side of the coin is challenging, and here's the challenging part. In a good way, it's super scary. Is that what happened to Brother Yoon and Pastor Peter, the way they live their life and the way they disciple people.

30:40 And for those of you who don't know, um, Brother Yoon uh wrote the book called The Heavenly Man. He was in prison for 14 years in communist China and leads 30 million people as their pastor, which yeah. Like, who has that in America? Like even like the guys are like, hey, this guy has nine campuses, this guy has 50,000 hundred.

31:00 That's like a small group for Brother Yoon.

31:02 Yes.

31:03 So that's why I mentioned that in his interview. I was like, hey, how many just so we know what we're dealing with? Just so we know we're not dealing with a rookie here who just went to jail, he does know something about pastoring a decent sized church 30 million.

31:16unknown Yes.

31:17 So that's probably three, what is that, 300 times bigger than the largest church in America? Wow. So to me, the sobering aspect is what they endured is biblical Christianity. Like suffering, being imprisoned, memorizing scripture, for example, that seemed like today, if you were to say, Hey, I'm running a discipleship school at whatever the newest church, like my friend Nick Brent goes, hey, the day's coming where the next cool church will come into Orlando.

31:47 I don't know what it's called. Yeah, triangle church for the Trinity. And then everyone's just gonna migrate that way.

31:52 Yeah.

31:52 You know, uh, which is kind of the downside of like trendy church. It's like because the next one's always on the heels and you migrate like a herd of cattle.

32:01 Totally.

32:01 The point is, is like if if most churches today employed methods like that in discipleship, hey, you're gonna memorize a chapter a day, a chapter, not a verse. Most Christians cannot memorize 10, 15 verses in America. And uh we wonder why the gates of hell prevail. When Jesus himself answers the devil with scripture, yes.

32:21 If anyone could have answered with resume or life experience, it's Jesus. He has an eternal life experience.

32:26 That's right.

32:26 But even he said it is written. So you listen to a brother eunuch, you're like, oh, that's crazy, that's extreme. And you're like, having an athletic background, the way you know somebody is the best is by the fruit, by their life. That's right. When you're around a brother Yoon or a Peter Shu, you feel like if this is the faith, I'm not sure I've been around it very much.

32:44 Exactly.

32:45 Because they're shiny, exactly, their faces glow. Yes, they're tender, they're meek, they're humble. I don't know if you caught the part where brother Yoon was just watching Pastor Peter, and Pastor Peter was in prison for 25 years. I didn't say this part, I forgot to, but he's known as the Billy Graham of China.

33:03 Oh, wow.

33:03 He discipled Brother Yoon. And so here's Brother Yoon with 30 million people in his church. But Pastor Peter is his spiritual father. He gladly gives him a session. I'm sure you picked up on that right. Yes. And the moment he felt like he needed water, yeah, he just waited and gave him water and then drank out of it himself.

33:22 Which we were like, oh, I don't know. Like that's awesome. Like, dude, if you're in prison together, of course. But I guess what I'm saying is, is like, I I feel like if you listen to Sophia, my daughter, and um, and you listen to you guys, you listen to my sons I had on the panel, you listen to I think a generation.

33:44 I think we're assuming to know what they're yearning for. But I think we are wearing ourselves out trying to give them something they actually don't know. Oh my god.

33:55 That's right.

33:56 And I think we're having staff meeting after staff meeting, conference after conference. Yes, method after method, creative breakout after creative breakout on how to fill the seats. I think at the end of the day, they are craving the substance of the living Christ deep in their soul, because that's the way we're hard-wired.

34:13 And I don't think I know they're craving holiness. I I think you guys are craving saintly holiness. Yes.

34:20 Wow.

34:21 Like Steffi's album, Faith of Our Fathers, there's this call to the substance of Jesus. So, like last night, you know, I don't know, almost a couple thousand people walking down to receive communion slowly in a very conscientious way, in a tender way, with very beautiful but not stressed, loud singing.

34:42 It was minimal in a beautiful way. It was like no more tools to the altar, let's just lift our voices. And we all backed off and let the Lord's body and blood be the Lord's body and blood.

34:53 Which I hadn't seen in that way. Yeah, honestly. To like that was the point.

34:58 Yeah.

34:58 It didn't feel like let's add to it or let's make this a moment. It's like, no, no, no, that this is the moment. You revered the moment. You're like, no, no, this is and that that was really impactful.

35:09 Yeah, I was like, well, there's nothing I how what can I bring that is body and blood doesn't absolutely overshadow. Wow. I'm praying. Here's my prayer for you guys. My prayer for you guys is that um that the Lord would so pour himself out in you. Yes, and that he would so entrust himself to you and strengthen you to be faithful so that he can do that.

35:30 Because John's gospel says he knew everyone, and because he knew him, he didn't give himself to them. Friendship with Jesus is not like redemption. Friendship, there's an interaction, there's a mutual exchange when it comes to friendship. He begins to trust you or not. My prayer is that his beauty, his beautiful face would be so seared on the eyes of your soul that he'd become your food, and such such so much of his presence and glory would be poured out on you that it would seep out of you, out of you both, and that you'd become more and more tender and more and more meek, more and more lowly until more and more people start reaching out to you for for for fresh bread.

36:11unknown Yes.

36:11 And I I feel very strongly that God is bringing you to the like the precipice of Him so being your food. Yes, yes, that he emanates from you. I think that's what a generation wants. Yes, you know, because the voices the the way the meetings are gonna be, the way they're supposed to be, is that the voices of the people, it's gonna overshadow the worship leader anyways, and that's what we want.

36:34 Yeah, you guys have simplified it in a really beautiful way. Did you feel like you started with a lot and took it back, or you kind of just started with do you know what I'm saying?

36:43 I think that's a good question.

36:45 Like, did you have to like say you tried seven and then you're like removed?

36:48 I think when you start, you start with whoever's like, hey, I'll do this crazy thing with you. Yeah, and I'll say it like this the more immature you are in the spirit, the more tools you put to the altar. So the more flesh you bring, and what we would call like a high moment or uh those are very important at times if you know the moment.

37:11 But I think sometimes in the name of like creativity or breakthrough, you start adding things to moments that are meant to be really simple. And when you're immature, you don't understand that you your heart does, but you don't know the difference between here you don't, but here your your soul does.

37:27 You don't know the difference, the difference between upping a tempo in a in a song moment and the move of the spirit. Wow. So the two are not the same.

37:34 No, it's scary that we don't know.

37:36 Yeah, we're marrying the lighting grid, which uh we just blew all that up. We've never had that. I think in the early days we may have had some. I felt like if I could blow up every bridge and have a very simple communication, which would be the Lord's face, yeah, which I used, which I saw in a few experiences with the Lord.

37:52 So I was like, this will be our logo, the Lord's face. And everyone was like, Well, just that. I go, What do you mean? Yeah, and not that it's exactly perfect. So I said, just put that face on the screen every time we show up and a wooden cross. And we had to learn what we were bringing to the table and then what the Holy Spirit was asking for.

38:11 And those two are not always the same, right? And so we we learned that um, you know, like in if you build a worship environment from heaven's perspective, the voices are carrying heaven's worship environment. It's not an obviously we believe in instruments, yeah, but there's no doubt that um if you put fleshly tools to the altar, you can over overpower what God is trying to do.

38:33 So typically in a worship context, let's say you start with 50 pounds of flesh, by the end of the night, hopefully you're at two, right?

38:40 Yes.

38:41 And those are those real mysterious moments. It's like, wait, why do I feel this when I shouldn't be feeling this? It's just people walking down to get communion.

38:50 Yes.

38:50 There's no lasers, there's no lights, I don't have smoke, there aren't backlights. So I think we add a lot that actually busies the soul that takes away from communion of the heart.

39:01 Wow. Yeah.

39:02 You follow me? Like the heart has a craving and the heart meets God in stillness. But the mystery is oh my gosh, there is a violin, a cello, a voice, the team's playing hopefully by the spirit, and the whole place is stuck in worship.

39:20 Yes.

39:21 And that gives glory to the Lord.

39:22 Yeah.

39:23 At the same time, we have a whole tech crew, they're creative, they're fantastic, they're translating what's going on. But what people don't know, and I I like to I should have maybe taken more time at pastors' conference to talk about this, but they're with the Lord for an hour before every service.

39:37 Yes.

39:37 So if you're running cable, you're with the Lord.

39:39 Yes.

39:40 If you're you you got to pray with the worship team, that's what we do every meeting.

39:44 It's amazing.

39:44 So it sets you up to be a minister.

39:46 Yeah.

39:47 I think sometimes we bring like a hurricane of activity and the scriptures, they just don't teach that the Lord dwells in those atmospheres. Wow. You know, like the further you go in the tabernacle, think about this. When the priest would get into the Holy of Holies, the high priest, which was once a year, right?

40:03 But there are no lampstands in there. So how did he minister in there? Think about it. He had to minister in there, but in the natural could not see. Wow. It was the glory. Wow.

40:12 Wow.

40:12 So the further you go, the less help you bring to the table. Steffi mastered that yesterday.

40:18 Yeah, absolutely.

40:20 You know, and I told my son, I said, watch, watch what happens here. And she took her time, it built it built vocally, and before you know it, you're going, What is going on with this little red-headed girl and a few musicians? It is basically an acoustic set.

40:33 Yeah.

40:33 Why are these voices ripping the pain off?

40:36 Yeah.

40:36 And it's not hers, it's the people.

40:38 I that was the one of the most like things I noticed about that set. It was the people worshiping, singing.

40:44 I've been in supposed worship environments that were not like at events I'll get invited to, and they're actually painful for me. And so, like, honestly, I'll I'll take the platform and we'll sing I sing praises with no instrument.

40:55 Yeah.

40:56 Or how great they were.

40:57 Yeah.

40:57 And I want the young people to go, oh, old songs work.

41:00unknown Yeah.

41:00 It's not about what's new.

41:02 Right. Right.

41:03 It's about what's lathered in oil.

41:05 Yes. Yes.

41:06 You know.

41:07 We've learned so much from this example, truly, just even this weekend of like, yeah, I mean, not to villainize a smoke or a light, or like that's not necessarily the villain, but you don't need that.

41:19 Thank God. Imagine if the apostles needed it. You don't need that. Like well said. Right.

41:25 Like we just, we just think, you know, I even remember growing up as a PK and being like, we need this in our church to make it cooler or whatever. Coming back from college and visiting and having opinions about my parents' church that's still singing that same song. I remember the pride in my heart being like, we should do this new song.

41:42 Like, we're doing this song at college. That song's been doing that since I lived here, you know. But you're right. It's like God doesn't need that to me. No.

41:51 And a mat if what songs would you sing on your deathbed?

41:54 And you know what I've noticed too? The song, the songs about heaven.

41:57 Yeah.

41:58 Like those aren't being necessarily written a lot right now.

42:01 No.

42:01 But that's what my grandparents wanted to sing. When we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing. Like that was the prize, you know, like eternity with Jesus was so at our forefront that I think that in my generation.

42:13 And the older you get, the older I get. I talked to my sons the other day. I was like, when I breathe my last, this is what I want. I want to worship the Lord. Wow. I want my family to be together in love with Jesus. I want somebody to put the body and blood of the Lord Jesus into my mouth. Wow. And that's how I want to go to heaven.

42:28 Wow.

42:30 And if we live that way now, I think I think it would please the Lord a lot.

42:34 Yeah, absolutely.

42:35 I love you both. And thank you. We're grateful. I'd love for you guys to pray. And I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna believe that when you pray, it would provoke people to the hunger that is already in your heart. And that we would see millions of young people wanting the true and living Lord. Amen. You guys you can choose who prays first, but let's believe the Lord.

42:57 All right.

42:58 Oh, thank you, Jesus. Thank you, God, that you are the desire of the nations and you are the desire of our hearts, Lord. It is you that we're longing for, God. The searching, the longing, God, it's you that will satisfy. And so I pray over every single person listening, over every person in my generation that might be distracted by things that are not food, God.

43:24 I just pray that you would fill every single heart that is longing for you, God. I pray that you would help us be more hungry for you, God. Help us to want you more, help us to long for you more, Jesus. And may we never turn our eyes from the point, God. May we not move past you, Jesus. May we not, may we not look at the cross and think it's not enough.

43:46 May we not look at the cross and get bored, God. I don't I don't want to look at you and think that there's something more or else, God, you are the point of all of it. So I pray that we you would teach our minds and our hearts to be so disciplined, God, to look at you long enough to see how beautiful you are, Lord.

44:04 And I pray that you would ignite every single heart, Jesus, including my own, Jesus, that we could be old and gray and say, Jesus, you were the reward. You were the prize of this entire life. Jesus' name.

44:17 Lord, I pray that we would come back to the simplicity and the power of your gospel. Amen. Lord, everything that we have stacked on top of and strive to become like, Lord, I pray that we would begin as a generation to strip it.

44:34 Yes, Jesus, yes, Jesus.

44:36 Back to even how you prayed, Lord. May we be a generation focused on our Father who art in heaven. Hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Yes, and your will be done. May that be a heart cry of our generation for your kingdom to come and your will to be done. And may our source and our strength come from your daily bread.

45:02 Amen. No other additives, no other ingredients. May it be your daily bread that sustains us. Lord, we are after your body broken for us. Thank you, Lord. May that be enough again.

45:16unknown Amen, Lord.

45:17 May that be our strength, Jesus. We come before you humbly and we ask that you would do it and to use people who are imperfect, who don't have it together like us to steward it. And for people who are listening and their hearts are just crying out, 14-year-olds, 15-year-olds.

45:36 Yes, Lord.

45:37 Lord, would you begin to just fill them with this understanding? Not something that they have to muster up or to activate. Lord, you thank you, Lord. I feel that you are craving just vessels who just simply want it, simply desire it, and we desire you. Amen. We love you, Jesus.

45:58 Amen.

45:59unknown Amen.

46:00 Thank you, Lord. Thank you all for coming. Thank you. Yeah, may the Lord keep using you. Absolutely. Yeah. Love you guys. We'll talk next time. Thank you so much for listening to the Jesus Podcast with Michael Kulianos. If you enjoyed this episode, you can find online courses, books, and more at michaelculianos.org.

46:21 You can also join us in person or online every Sunday at Jesus Image Church. For more information on Jesus School, local and nationwide events hosted by Jesus Image and resources, visit Jesus Image.tv.