Episode 12 - Question & Answer with the Jesus Image Team (Part 2)

0:02 Welcome to the Jesus Podcast with Michael Kulianos. Hey guys, welcome back. Our last episode was a blast. We've got Tuck, Candice, Amy here again. We tackled some pretty beautiful, deep, powerful stuff in the last episode. And again, we're here just to talk from our hearts and share our experience with the Lord and hopefully help you, help equip you and resource your life the best we can.

0:26 So I love this group. Hopefully you guys are getting to know them. So I'm gonna ask some questions just because I'm answered out from the last episode. But but no, honestly, they have a lot to give. They've been around here for a long time, and each individual love the Lord beautifully. So, Tuck, first question.

0:44 Ambition is a big deal. We all have a measure of it. You feel like there's a healthy version of it? What makes it unhealthy and what makes it healthy?

0:52 It's a good question. Yeah, how you like it? I like that question. You like being downrange? Yeah, yeah, I like being downrange. Yeah. So how can someone have a healthy amount of ambition?

0:59 Yeah. Well, start with the negative aspect. How does ambition become unhealthy?

1:04 Well, it's when man's ideas get in the way of God's, I think. Like you see that, like we were talking earlier, the Tower of Babel. Man's idea of how to bring heaven to earth. It's Babel. It's let's exalt ourselves, let's make a name for ourselves. And that's man's ambition. I think you can see that a lot in the church and in our ministry spheres, as we were also talking about over lunch, that um many people will just start whatever, they'll design whatever, they'll create whatever, and then think God likes it as he's like, Or make him like it.

1:32 Try to make him like it.

1:33 Yeah, try and make him like it. And rather than waiting and see what is God's blessing and what is he, what does he want from his church, from his people, and then doing it from a place that's leading from a place of humility, I believe, if we wait for the command of the Lord instead of let me just do whatever and I'm gonna make my own tower, I'm gonna make my own Ishmael and ask God to bless it.

1:52 We see that also in the life of Abram when he hears the promise of, oh, my seed and will cover the whole earth, and I'll it'll be as vast as the stars in the sky and as vast as the sand and the seashore. So then he's like, Let me make it happen myself, and I'm gonna take my, I'm gonna take Hagar and and birth Ishmael.

2:08 And he didn't know that it was coming through Sarah, you know, and he heard that part of the promise from God and said, Oh, well, now it's my turn, let's make this happen. And so I think a lot of us can do that as we hear maybe a prophetic word or something from somebody and be like, oh, now it's my time to just start like making this thing happen rather than as moving slowly.

2:27 And I think we've all learned that from you in such a powerful way, is this learning to glean from like the slow drip of life and learning that like this is a slow process, and then we won't get caught up in the super high highs of ministry and the low lows. I remember when we were going on our first tour, we were going all over California and we were all super excited.

2:45 And you brought us into the back room, and you were like, you guys, as a team, we're all gonna be going through tons of high highs and tons of low lows. And if you don't get care, be careful, you can start going up and down and up and down and get really unstable. But you asked us this question, you said, I need to know from you guys that you are perfectly satisfied when you are simply walking in the peace of God every single day.

3:07 Wow. And you said that to us, and that hit my heart of like, oh, that's the goal. If I can walk every single day in the peace of God, as you talk about so beautifully, if I can walk in the rest, as Hebrews talks about.

3:17 Does a good job at walking in peace. Yeah, yeah.

3:19 That's that's kind of my celsius.

3:21 You seem you don't seem pretty stressed, like ever stressed, no, I I don't ever get stressed. Yeah. You're doing good. Thanks for following that direction.

3:29unknown Yeah.

3:30 But you said that if I can walk in the simple peace of God and in the knowing of God and in that abiding life style that you teach all the time, that's how we stay consistent, and that's how the highs don't feel as high anymore, the lows don't feel as low anymore. We honestly want to get back to church to be with the people, honestly.

3:46 You know, like things like that. And I think that can keep us safeguarded from ambition if we really keep the first things first of his presence.

3:54 You're studying in Pauline theology right now.

3:56 Yeah, yeah, I am, yeah.

3:57 Um, and in fact, you just came back from a weekend at one of NT Rights. Yeah, seminars. Seminars. So you love theology. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, don't let his voice and tuck fool you. He's he he loves the scripture, loves the Lord. So um you see that in Paul, right? Yeah, yeah. And Paul's so qualified, has his own plan for his life, yeah, crazy ambitious.

4:19 Yeah. I mean, he's killing the church, yeah. Trained by Gemalil. Yeah, pretty amazing. Yeah, and then he goes from that to I count it all as dung.

4:27 Count it all as rubbish. Yeah, it's all rubbish. Yeah.

4:29 No, I want to do one thing. I want to be a bond slave. Yeah. It's a pretty incredible transition.

4:34 And you see that in Acts, you see um Luke is like writing about Paul, and he you show him he's like planting churches, he's planting churches, and slowly throughout, it says then he had two disciples, then he had three disciples, and by the end of Acts, he has 12 disciples and he's like settled down.

4:49 And it's almost like this reverse flow in the life of Paul of like he's become like Christ, he's becoming like Christ, and he's slowing down and he settles with around 12 disciples. And I just always think that's so cool of like the piercing ambition of Paul, like you just said, like, I love you sit on Sunday.

5:04 It's like he's a legend in the philosophical world, like up there with Plato and all these guys. And he says, I count it all as lost, and I'm like striving to know nothing. And so I think that's a call for all of us that want to know a lot. It's yeah, knowing is Christ Jesus. So yeah, I think that's yeah, that's a beautiful thing we see in the life of Paul as well.

5:22 Yeah, yeah.

5:23 I mean, what a resume. Yeah, you know, and then he's kind of forced to unfold the resume. It's like, all right, fine. Let me tell I'll tell you what I like. It's like I know a man who was caught in the third heaven, even he's he's he's slow to say it was me. I know this guy who was caught up to the third heaven and heard things too glorious to repeat.

5:42 Wow, yeah, it's really good. Miss Candace. What's the question? Ambition. What have you learned? I'm sure you came in with some.

5:48 Oh man.

5:54 We all did.

5:55 Yeah.

5:56 I feel like How do you feel like you can be healthy? At what point does it come like it become a negative in our life?

6:02 I feel like for me personally, ambition is something that comes very naturally. I'm feeling I'm constantly having to submit it to the Lord. Before coming here, I was just moving up in a company and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna be district manager, I'm gonna be this, I'm gonna be that. So coming and really submitting my life and giving my life fully to the Lord, fully to him for for him to be able to mold me.

6:28 I think it's been a very interesting process, something that, like I said, I'm constantly going just back and forth. It's like I don't, I don't even know if it makes sense that I feel like sometimes I wrestle because I'm like, I don't, it's like I've I feel this ambition, I feel this desire to like find a target and just go for it.

6:47 Um, and I feel like where the Lord has really honed me in is to where my ambition is just after him.

6:55 And so you haven't lost it, it's just been redirected.

6:58 It's been redirected. Yeah, it's been redirected, and yeah, it does try to rear its head. And I can see my ambition in like, oh, I want to do this. I want to own this uh this specific thing that I'm over. I'm gonna own it, I'm gonna do it the best, and then I'm gonna move on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

7:15 And obviously, I think that comes with just different personality traits and playing sports growing up. I'm like, boom, boom. Like this is I love conquering. I'm like, I just like it. I just do.

7:28 Who was expecting that word to come in? I I thought she was gonna like winning or I I don't like losing, but she said I like conquering.

7:39 It's I'm just being really honest.

7:41 No, no, we we know. Yeah, we we we we heard it loud and clear. How does how does Michael Jones feel about your conquering quest?

7:50 You know, he's we've had a lot of conversations about it.

7:54 I am addicted to conquering. That was a heavy, that was a heavy, heavy word. That was heavy, that was a strong word. It's like a 90-pound, just like kettlebell, just boom. I really like conquering.

8:12unknown Yeah.

8:12 All right, sorry to interrupt you. Um that that was really good.

8:16 So I think knowing that ultimately, if I can yield to the Lord and submit all of that ambition, all of that um, okay, what's moving on to the next thing? Actually, going, no, there's there's only one thing.

8:30 There you go.

8:31 And I mean, it's something not only it's literally, I think I said this earlier, it's the adventure of a lifetime that I get to have with him. And if my just human ambition would scare the that adventure with the Lord away, I've just learned that I don't want anything to do with it. As much as I feel this, you know, it's like it can be so counter, counterculture, of course.

8:56 In the world, it's like and you know, to it to desire to, you know, be at the top of the mountain or the top of um control, command, all of that.

9:07 It's such conquering.

9:09 I know I was trying not to use control, command, conquer.

9:13 Um you can use it as much as you want. Yeah.

9:17 Um, I've it's that's like that's just the world and to to know that the Lord did create, he created us all in a in a very specific way. He created me the way he created me. He created someone who's like really great at administrative, at just like going with the flu.

9:35 Not conquers.

9:36 Not conquer.

9:38 Me and everyone else who loses in the defeated, and the conquered.

9:46 Oh, that's so funny.

9:50 He created me to win and the others to lose.

9:56 Oh my gosh. Um, but he created us all, but it's we all have to die a certain death.

10:03 Yeah.

10:04 And I do, I do feel like he's just showing me again and again. And each time it takes me deeper and deeper, and I don't think I'll ever arrive. Um, I definitely don't feel like I've come even close to tasting what that looks like, but I do feel like this ambition of like pursuing him with everything that I am is becoming more and more grand in my vision.

10:32 Um, more and more like it's taking my, it's taking my thoughts, like my daily thoughts of okay, looking at the saints, looking at the fathers, like what what did they do? The Lord made us with gifts and personalities, everything, but you know, our biggest virtue can become our vice as well.

10:53 It's very true.

10:54 And so if he if he created me this way, and just because you know, this is a sinful world, it's like the world can take that ambition and pervert it.

11:04 Totally, yeah.

11:05 And now I feel like I'm seeing the Lord really show me how to hone it in and really what target, what the target actually is. Yeah. And it's him, and it's not just the language of it's him alone. It's actually believing it and going after it. And I look at my family, I look at the people around me, and I'm like, okay, like if I don't do this, like this can affect them.

11:30 This can affect my husband, this can affect my son, this can affect my family, my friends. Like, if I don't, if I'm not like on this target the way the Lord like has desired for me to, the way what I was born to do, then I could miss the mark for other people around me.

11:46 True. It's responsibility, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I wrote down like it's it's you come to the Lord and we're born with these gifts. One is certainly when we think of ambition, it's a good thing when it's tethered to the Lord, when it's lorded over. I always I used to say a lot, untethered ambition can cause a lot of pain.

12:06 That can look like you missing out on God's will for your personal life, what you start ministry-wise. Some guys say, Well, we gotta win souls, or we gotta do this or that, and we're we'll just gonna do it at any cost, or we're gonna do it, you know. And I I've never been a proponent of that. I always felt like the key to ministry productivity is yieldingness to the Lord, yeah, not creating different mechanisms that are untethered, different wineskins, you know.

12:30 So and I think even if you're born with something, you still have to give it back to the Lord.

12:34 Yeah, right.

12:35 So you give it back to him, it's not that he he says all ambition's gone. It's that he redeems it, restores it, it's death, burial, and resurrection. So he buries it when you give it to him, it dies, and then he gives it back to you in a in a very beautiful way. So for me, you know, I don't like losing, but I had to redefine it.

12:54 So winning wasn't having a bigger church than somebody else. Winning was being more like Jesus, defeating the passions in my life, defeating temptation. That's so good. Right? It was it was defeating self. So I could take rather than it being I'm gonna beat you, it was I'm gonna beat whatever weight so easily holds me down.

13:16 That's the beauty is when we give our ambition to the Lord, it comes from the Lord. All it is is the desire at the end of the day to see your life, hopefully it should be, to see your life make a difference. And for Christians, that only happens when something's given to the Lord. You know, it's like the boy coming with with fish and loaves.

13:33 It's like that's his ambition. Oh yeah, here it is. I give it to Jesus. There was no guarantee that Jesus was giving that bread and fish back to the boy when he gave it to him. That wasn't part of the deal.

13:44 Yeah. Right?

13:46 But had he walked with the Lord longer, he'd been like, if I give this to him, it's coming back. But I'm gonna give it to him because he's beautiful, not because I need it to come back. But knowing the heart of Jesus, he breaks it, blesses it, offers it to the Father, and it that's what happens with ambition.

14:00 You know, and I I've taken a lot of what I use from self-gain in athletics or whatever, and I just like repurposed it. So you know, you get like if you're highly disciplined in training, you could be highly disciplined in prayer in prayer in the scriptures. You could be highly disciplined in giving. You know, highly disciplined in writing out what you feel God is saying to you and then praying through that and saying, what are the components to make it happen?

14:24unknown Lord.

14:25 So He doesn't give you all of them all the time, but you're right. You can you're born a certain way, but it still has to be given back. And that's what you've done beautifully. Amy, what do you what do you think?

14:32 Yeah, I feel like a lot of things were said. Um but I I see ambition honestly, just if the root of it's unhealthy, it's gonna be unholy.

14:44 So of itself.

14:45 Yeah, I think like if I think what the Lord's given you that drive, that passion, if it's not steered correctly, if it's a selfish drive, a selfish ambition, of course it's gonna be the fruit of that is gonna look a certain way. Um, I feel like you guys said so many things that I would have said, but there's one thing that kind of I heard this a really long time ago, and um it's something that I am always reminded of.

15:10 And I really forgot who said it, but they said that probably Tucker. Yeah, probably Tucker. Yeah. Um stewardship and striving can look similar, but the fruit and the outcome is very different. Well, and that has always just hit me because I'm like, if let's say I'm ambitious when it comes to um, there's a goal, right?

15:32 And there's an ambition to get it done. If I'm in an unhealthy place, my heart's not rooted in the peace and the love of God, everything will turn into striving. But if I'm in the river, my heart is steady and my my heart is, I wanna go after this because I feel the Lord's peace and delight. And my heart is just on the altar.

15:53 The fruit would look like stewardship. And yeah, I feel like ambition can be a beautiful thing because I do think it's almost like drive. That's kind of how I see it. Um, and I do see like we, I feel like a lot of people on our staff are athletic and have that athlete mindset. So when it comes to doing things for the Lord, there is this beautiful, like, we're gonna do it, we're gonna go all in and we're gonna win almost.

16:22 Because it's like, well, yeah, why would we do anything else? Like, why are we gonna put step into something that the Lord's calling us to if we're not gonna go all in?

16:30 Yeah.

16:31 Um, but at the same time, the trick is like you don't want to put your hand to the plow that the Lord's not asking you to, and how that can be chaos and mess and we've all done that. Yeah, just obedience to the Lord and and doing things out of the purity of the heart um and your motive truly. Um, I feel like yeah, I think I think ambition can be very beautiful.

16:53 And maybe I'm not seeing the word properly, but I think it can be beautiful when it's rooted and grounded in the Lord and steered in the right direction.

17:01 I think some markers of ambition are like, did God say it? Yeah. Is he sustaining it? So I pay attention to grace. Yeah.

17:09 Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

17:10 Because people are like to me, like, how do you like you like between tapings here? How many questions were asked of me? Like while we're here, I'm getting texts. Can you approve this video? Can you see look at this? You know, yeah. So I look for that grace connection. I don't look for gifting connection only, because gifting can marry unholy ambition and look like God.

17:27 Yeah, yeah.

17:28 It can look like God, and that's how you see families explode. Right, yeah. You see purity sacrifice, right? That thing, because because the anointing is the anointing of God is very interesting in that it can it's magnetic, and because of that reason, it's kind of dangerous. You know, the Lord, the presence, the glory of the spirit is much like I heard someone say, I think it was Bob Gladstone, he said it's much like nuclear power.

17:51 When used properly, it empowers a city. When used improperly, it destroys a city.

17:56 Yes, wow.

17:56 Gifting is a lot like that. Yeah. So sometimes we see somebody operating a gift, we're like, oh, that is a very yielded vessel. No, that's a gifted vessel. The two are very different.

18:05 Right.

18:06 It's longevity, purity, the quality of people around you, your family. To me, that's what speaks to a true grace and an indicator of obedience, which I would call ambition.

18:18 Yeah, right.

18:20 Like we don't want to do stuff alone. Yes. Sometimes when you think the word ambition, it's like, oh go do that. Yeah. You know, but none of us want to do it alone. What else we got? We got five more minutes.

18:28 We all got any good questions.

18:30 We got any more there?

18:31 Do you have any questions about it?

18:32 All right, yeah. We gotta go fire around though. Okay. What's been the hardest thing about being in the ministry for you guys? You've been in a little while now. This is probably your first full-on ministry assignment, right? Like yeah. All right, what do you got?

18:44 Oh man. Um, ah man, I don't want to take too long, so I really wanna make sure I say it correctly. Um, it's similar to I think misunderstanding and not at the length that you have experienced it. So I feel like I've just had just a very teeny tiny snippet. But it's been the most beautiful, challenging death to self and experience, and I wouldn't change it for the world.

19:08 Yeah, I think that you see sides of the Lord that you I don't think can unless you're in it personally. And it's funny because when you think about ministry, you're like, everyone, kumbaya, we're all friends, we're all gonna run this race together. But then you look at the life of Jesus, and he was actually betrayed by his 12 or one out of his 12, and then others denied him, and you think to yourself, I would never do that.

19:32 That would never happen to me. That's not gonna happen. And in my experience personally, seeing just little instances or disagreements turning to things that you would never imagine that don't need to, but um, you know, I I've one thing I I think it's just been the most incredible blessing because you know, if I didn't say yes, I wouldn't have met my husband, I wouldn't have my child, I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't have been able to be a part of some of the most holiest, beautiful moments in my life.

20:01 But I would say the challenging part is you're saying yes is something you don't fully know the cost to. And you you can't really count the cost. Um, I don't think you can. It's not like the Lord. Yeah, you try, and then you're like, oh, um, I signed my life away and I the Lord didn't tell me what was on the other side.

20:20 I just said yes. And you jump online and you trust that the Lord is continuing going to lead you and guide you. And you know, in Psalms 23, it says He prepares a table um before you in the presence of your enemies. And I was reading that the other day and I was thinking about, but the table's prepared.

20:36 It's in front of enemies, but he will prepare it and he will lead you and guide you, and he will still walk you through um, you know, green pastures and the still waters. But the promises of the hardships or the misunderstanding, the judgment, all those things, those are promised and they will come. Um for someone like me who never experienced that, when it came, I thought it was the worst thing ever.

20:58 But then I just looked at the life of Jesus and I was like, Well, you did this, and we're not above you.

21:03 Yeah, it's good theology touch.

21:05 We're uh, you know.

21:06 Checks out, right? Yeah.

21:09 Well, yeah. Um it's gonna, it comes with it. But yeah, I would say like you don't know what you're signing up for and you you can't you can't fully count the cost until you're in it. But it's been the most it's the beautiful, it's the most beautiful thing when your heart is truly, truly on the altar.

21:26 It's gotta be a cool feeling when you're ministering the Lord dancing and your husband's leading.

21:30 Oh yeah.

21:30 There's gotta be moments where you're like, wow, I need to do this with my husband. It's beautiful.

21:34 Oh yeah.

21:35 Candace, what's been the d hardest thing about being in the ministry?

21:38 Um one. I think staying in it. Yeah. I think um I never thought that I would be faced with the feeling of should I just stop? And I think that that process showed me, has shown me my own humanity in the in just different areas of either not trusting the Lord, um, even not trusting. Trusting leaders. You know, I mean, if I can just be honest, sure.

22:04 Like it, the feeling of can I stay? Do I have and asking the Lord, Lord, give me staying power, power to allow me to stay. Um, I think that, yeah, I think ministry shows you a reflection of yourself. It has shown me a reflection of myself, where sometimes I don't like it. I don't like what I see in the mirror.

22:25 And the Lord in his mercy draws me again with cords of love. And I know that this is the race that the Lord has called for me to do. Like he's he actually said, This is a race that you're gonna run. And I know the last thing I would ever want to do is to forfeit that race.

22:44 Yeah, the only fun racers are like 50 or dashes.

22:48 I know.

22:49 I mean, are marathons even fun?

22:51 No, I'm not a marathon runner. Thank you very name much. Thank you very much.

22:55 The funnest 40 I've ever ran. Yeah, no, no, it's not the fun part at all.

23:01 Yeah. Um, but I think, yeah, I think that's for me, that's just been the hardest thing. It's I've never been faced so much with like, and I don't give up. Like, yeah, I'm just not a quick quitter. Um and I think, I think that, you know, sometimes I'm like, I've had thoughts where I'm like, man, I thought I was like had thicker skin than what I do.

23:21 I didn't think I had this in me. I didn't think I had this in me. I didn't think that I had this area of pride or arrogance or perfectionism or false humility. Like it's all comes out. And I think that it's so beautiful that the Lord still chooses. He still chose me. He still chose us all.

23:39 And I think you we you start realizing finishing is a huge success. Yeah, like it's it's holy.

23:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

23:47 So I love what you're talking about. Because I mean the devil would love to uproot steadfastness, endurance, being faithful to your assignment. You know, you heard Paul's words, you know, wrestled beasts at Ephesus. Like, it's not exactly the warmest reception. You know, stoned to death, raised from the dead by your team, possibly flogged, shipwrecked.

24:06 Yet in the midst, while we say sometimes not fun, it is incredibly life-giving. Yeah, right.

24:11 Yeah, a hundred percent.

24:12 So the thought of like bailing on each other, that shouldn't be like super normal.

24:17 Yeah.

24:17 You know, like like or like like I don't think any of us see each other as like joint employees, co co-workers. We deeply love each other, and right? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I remember uh specifically with you two, uh, we had a moment in the green room where I I was overcome with emotion.

24:33 Uh and and I'll never forget how you guys were were you there? Yeah. Oh wow, were you just freaked out? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I didn't I didn't know that was in there until I started you know talking. Wasn't Heidi there?

24:43 Heidi was there. Oh my gosh, wow. It was like five people.

24:46 Yeah. Those kind of moments bring you closer because when you when someone comes along, you believe you're gonna finish. Like it's more real to you. Like, okay, I can I can get through that. Because one of the fallacies is that we have to do it up all by ourselves. Yeah, you know, and and um I love what you're talking about because I don't think it's spoken of enough.

25:03 Like, if the Lord permits, I'd like to be buried here. That's how committed I am, you know. Like I deeply locked in here. And in the natural, I will never live in Orlando, you know. Events cool, students love coming. It's a fun place, don't get me wrong. Great place to eat. But like for me at this point, I'm like quiet place where I could catch fish would be great.

25:21 Play golf every day, little ocean breeze. That's not Orlando. We don't really have an ocean breeze. Yeah, no, we have a smoggy, thick, Vietnam-like breeze. Yeah, you know, that's really powerful what you mentioned. Yeah, finishing. Paul said, I've finished my race. I I want to finish mine. Yeah, it's beautiful.

25:39 And and I'd say when you serve alongside people, there's stuff feedback-wise that comes your way that you didn't even think was true about you.

25:48unknown Wow.

25:48 Right? Yeah, you're like, I didn't think I was like that. And then like three more say you are, and you're like, maybe I am like that, right?

25:55 Yeah.

25:56 And then you have this opportunity to say maybe it's true.

25:59 Yeah.

26:00 Or I'm gonna distance myself from people I know love me. Oh, or saying I'm experiencing you this way.

26:05 Oh, a hundred percent. And I can choose to allow feedback, whether it's true or not, to scar me in a good way.

26:13 Yeah.

26:14 In a good way. I they're good scars. And I think that I can go and I learned something from it. We all can learn something from it. And the thing is, is it does it's gonna form me into the image of Christ. That's it. If I allow it to. That's the point. Now I can shut down and go, you I'm gonna, I can distance myself and say, you know what, you did this to me.

26:34 Someone's not wearing their earplugs all these years. Someone's listening like a conqueror.

26:45 More than a conquer. But I can distance myself and say they don't know what they're talking about. Or I can say, the little bit of me that wanted to defend me, maybe that's why you said that. If you know, the little bit of me that wanted to come out and say that's not me, maybe that's why I got that feedback.

27:03 I apologize to someone I love today. It wasn't just, but it's someone that I love. Before I did it this morning, is actually on the way here, I was like, man, is this extreme? Because I don't really think it's worthy of and I don't want the it to feel dramatic. Maybe this is gonna take it to another level.

27:18 Just kind of thinking through it, and then I thought, if someone called me and said, please forgive me, even if I felt like they hadn't done it, it I would honor them more.

27:25 Wow, yeah. Yes.

27:27 Right? Yes. So it's like if someone sees something in me, experience me in a certain light, and they bring it to me kindly, or even if they don't bring it kindly, am I mature enough to go, I don't love the delivery, but there's still a check written to me in an envelope that I don't really love. Yeah.

27:42 Am I mature enough to peel back the delivery and go, okay, I received that. Now, hopefully they can work on their delivery because that's part of being formed in Jesus. Gentleness, self-control, right, being a tempered servant of God. The Bible says a s uh a servant of God should be gentle. So they can work on that, and everybody's a work in progress.

28:00 But someone being a work in progress doesn't give me permission to criminalize them in demons. Yeah. Because then I have to turn those same guns on myself.

28:09 Exactly. I was just thinking that.

28:10 Yeah. Like, what if every group of people that walk together were like, okay, God told us to walk together. We're gonna do that. We're gonna screw up with each other and the Lord along the way. We're gonna ask the Lord for forgiveness and each other for forgiveness the best we can. When we're tempted to defend ourselves, we're gonna go lower than we've ever gone before.

28:27 Every Christian community would be thriving.

28:29 Right, yeah.

28:31 But it's just the opposite of human nature.

28:32 Yeah, it really human nature is self-protect.

28:35 Yes, yes. Christian nature is give yourself away. Yeah. Yeah. It's good, Candace.

28:40 Talk. I haven't been in that long, obviously, but I remember something you said. This was like the first week that I came onto the worship team. And um, I remember you pulled everybody in the green room and you were talking about um the process of giving your heart away. And you were talking about how hurt everything in you is gonna want you to keep your heart to yourself and not give it away.

29:00 This is my first time back there talking, hearing you speak. And I remember you, there were a few of us that had just gotten on the team and you said, probably with tears in your eyes, you said, and I'm going to choose over and over and over to put my heart before you, no matter what has wounded me in the past, because that's exactly what Christ would do.

29:19 And I, and those all those wounds will do is make me bleed out in front of you. And that's Christ-like, behold the man, right? And so I remember you saying that, and that message right there has grounded me more than anything. It's that that's that constant thing of self-protect, self-protect, self-protect.

29:34 Let's put walls up. And it's like, like, no, the heart of Christ is to like give ourselves away in vulnerability over and over. And I think I've never realized the joy that can come from being in community of people that really care for each other and give each other, give ourselves away to each other.

29:49 Like it's just so beautiful. Like we had a team day yesterday, and I was driving home on the way home just smiling. Like, I was like, I feel I'm so here, yeah, it was here. I remember I was just on the way home, just smiling, like just filled with joy of just being able to bear my heart with other team members and them do the same.

30:07 And like we can build each other up. And so, but that's just been so beautifully given to us in a leader that's done that for all of us. And like you've given yourself away to us, even when I didn't even know you at the time. And so that was such a deeply piercing moment that I think will ground me for years to come.

30:23 Beautiful. Yeah. All right, I'm gonna leave you guys here with a with a passage. You probably heard me talk about it before, and then you guys watching or listening. This is your first homework assignment. So it's Acts 20 and verse 25. All right, here's your assignment, and I'm gonna I'm gonna read this and then I'm gonna ask a question.

30:42 I'm not gonna give you the answers, but I want you to contemplate the answers and maybe we can talk about it next time. And indeed, this is Paul speaking to the Ephesian elders, and he's about to leave them and basically go to his martyrdom. So imagine the moment. Yeah, Ephesus is right near the Mediterranean, thriving church community, thriving city.

31:00 Paul plants the church, he raises up elders, insane flow of the spirit there. And now he's leaving his baby and going to die. And you usually say the most important things you're gonna say to people you love before you die. So it says, and indeed now I know that you all now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more.

31:24 Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. What a testimony, huh? He's and and he'll explain this. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. So teaching the entirety, the the whole counsel of God, being true to the scriptures, liberates a man's heart to literally go to his death and say, Your blood's not on my hand.

31:46 Wow. But if you don't, as a leader, it is on your hand. Ezekiel teaches us that. Therefore, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock. So he's speaking to his leaders here. In other words, take care of the flock, take heed, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. So man doesn't make another man an overseer.

32:02 The Holy Spirit does. So be careful how we treat them. So shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood. In other words, shepherd them. And remember, they're not yours, they're the Lord's. So we're under-shepherds. Okay. And how valuable is the blood? Talk about the value of the flock.

32:19 How valuable is the blood? All right. For I know this that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. So he's saying they're going to come in from the outside. Okay. Verse 30, however, says, also from among yourselves. So from the outside and within. So he's saying, From my eldership team, men will arise speaking perverse things.

32:40 Wow. To draw away the disciples after themselves. So not giving them to Jesus. Therefore, watch. And what does he tell me to remember? Remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. For three years. Warning them. Okay, here's the question. Let's say there are ten elders there.

32:59 Let's say twelve to make it more biblical. Who knows? There's twelve elders there. The apostle Paul plants the church. He's your spiritual father. You've watched him live. He's obviously approved by God. He's he's weeping to you day and night, telling you this is coming. This is coming. Okay. If you're one of those twelve, let's just say, what are you gonna do as a lifestyle to ensure that you're not one of those savage wolves and that you don't become one?

33:19 So it's kind of a somber way to end. But but I think it's a powerful way to end. I want you to listen to what we just read and what I just said, and I want you to meditate on if if Paul could say that to the men he raised up and say, some of you, not just one, some will rise up and speak perverse things.

33:40 In other words, you'll be deceived. And you're gonna draw people to you. It's the opposite of the gospel. What do we do to not become one of those people? All right. So we just conquered. Yeah. We love y'all, and thank you guys for coming on. This has been so fun. Love you guys and stay in touch and uh make sure to just stay in connection with us and we'll let you know when the next episode comes out.

34:02 Love you guys. Bye-bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Jesus Podcast with Michael Kulianos. If you enjoyed this episode, you can find online courses, books, and more at michaelculeanos.org. You can also join us in person or online every Sunday at Jesus Image Church. For more information on Jesus School, local and nationwide events hosted by Jesus Image and resources, visit Jesusimage.tv