Off Record: Red River Street (with Karen Kilgariff)

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The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media.

And I looked down and I saw a shoe just laying by itself. And then I saw some blood on the sidewalk and I was staring at it like, what is this?

Welcome to The Knife Off Record. I'm Patia Eaton, and today we have a very special guest. You probably haven't heard of her or her show, so I'll go ahead and give.

You an introduction.

I'm speaking with Karen Kogara from My Favorite Murder.

Hello. Meet me. So excited. I'm so excited.

I was actually having a moment driving here because I was like, in 2020, my job in TV was coming to an end. I didn't know what I was going to do. I was listening to podcasts. I just tried to.

Make my own.

Thought maybe no one would listen to it. And actually, no one did listen to it. I just used it as like this, you know, resume builder.

But yeah, here I am. Yeah. Just six years later. Just six short years later. Yeah. But So glad you are. Me too.

You know, also the knife is in its second year and that's also been so great. And Hannah's on leave and yeah, life just keeps happening.

It really does. And your guys' show is such a beautiful kind of like testament to the journalistic research, the true crime that is beloved. And we're just so proud of you guys. Thank you. You know, in the most complimentary way possible. It's just like, it's such a cool show. thing to have you on our roster.

We're so happy to be here. And yeah, when Hannah and I first came over to Exactly Right, I mean, you know, we had gone through a few different iterations of what the show was actually going to be. And now this show is the knife, but what it would be and what we would be bringing to the true crime space that felt authentic to us, but something that maybe felt.

New to people in a way.

And we landed on this concept where we wanted to explore this, quote, ripple effect of crime and crime from all angles of people who have experienced it. So a lot of us have some version of a story like this. And today, Karen, we're going to speak about an incident you witnessed many years ago, came up in maybe a meeting where we were talking about different show ideas. And so this takes place on March 13th, 2014. I would love for you to just start us off with maybe a little bit about sort of where you were at in your life at this moment.

Let's see. I was writing on a like a comedy kind of talk show. I had been doing that for a while. It was feeling like a stall-y period of life and Like it's a hard kind of job to do, especially I was often a head writer, which is management and middle management more than the creative, which is, of course, the fun part.

Right.

So I was also doing stand up. So I got booked at South by Southwest and then the show was going to be there to do panels, I think. And so basically we got this like kind of week to go to South by and be there. So I had a lot of friends there. And of course, like standup comedians going to any festival, like we make a meal of it. And it was cool because it was like, I felt very kind of like, okay, this does feel good.

I'm doing my thing. I have my career or whatever. At the same time, it was like the part of my career where I was like, I was always writing for other people, which is, The thing that makes this part of my career so satisfying and so great. But no complaints because, you know. Yeah. We got to get there. Right.

To get there. Eventually. Yeah.

Because this is two years before MFM. Right. Wow.

Yeah.

To think of a world without it, you know. And to think of like where my head was at. I mean, so many things like 2016 was such a strange time. timeline to start in so many ways for it feels like everybody in America. But yeah, it was like I was feeling very I would like to make a change or I think I need to figure out what I'm going to do besides this because it isn't great. But yeah, yeah.

We get the fun part of working, which is going to a festival where people are like, oh, hooray, I like your show or I want to hear you talk about it or just go watch you stand up, whatever.

And if I didn't know where this was going, I would think just performing stand up would be terrifying enough for us to cover this entire episode.

The whole time I'm just complaining about how hard stand up is. It's so scary. And then this lady looked at me and she seemed mad. No, not at all.

Okay.

That's so funny, too, because it's like comedians are just a strange breed of people. And thinking about how much comedians love stuff like this, there was a show that year that was sponsored by a weed company. And I walked in and I was like, so sorry, everyone in the audience is high and everyone doing the show is high. Like, how are we going to do this? This is going to be insane. So it was like, it was just the fun. It's just like a big, long party for comics, at least. Yeah. That's what we were in the middle of.

Yeah.

And that's like spirits were high. Yes, exactly. If you are a performer, you get a pass. And so you get to go and after your show's done, just walk into any place to see the bands you want to see. And there's so many choices. And that part is like, Then it's really great. And that year, I don't know if they have done it before or since, but there were all these little houses kind of down by the river and each house was sponsored. So there was like the comedy house. There was like a big, huge setup in the backyard of like live podcasts, live standup shows.

But then there was other houses with other types of performers, whatever. It felt very kind of Hollywood and exciting. Yeah. And probably you knew a lot of people there. Yes.

Yeah.

So it's kind of like going to a big college party of adults. Where it's like, when you're done with your thing, you know, let's party over there type of. Okay. Like a week of that.

Yeah.

I mean, that sounds great. Yeah.

Especially if you're at a moment in your career where you're like, what is this going to be really? It's just like a little lighter.

Yes. Kind of like a little reward for the work being put in. And then you're there with your friends who are everybody's Right. You get to see all the bands you like to see. Now you get to see stand-ups. It's an entertainment festival. Spirits are high. It's all of that energy. I was there with my two friends, and we had just finished a show that we were both on.

I believe X was playing at the theater. It's almost like a mini arena. Okay. Have you ever been to that one? No, I have no idea. It's crazy because there's so many people. venues in Austin. It's wild. So basically X is inside playing. We're kind of late because we were at our own show and we have our fancy passes. How late is it? I would say like 11. Okay.

That's a guess. I could be wrong, but it's like after our show is done, but it's not crazy late. And We have these passes where, although you can walk right in, there's always a line because everybody's got a pass because everybody's a star and everybody's special. So there was a line of about 30 people trying to also get in to see X, which is very cool. And so we were standing there. We kind of had all decided that we wanted to go in. It was worth waiting for as opposed to just peeling off and, you know, meeting back at the comedy house or something. So I went to the end of the line. And so set it up that the street in front of this theater was blocked off on both ends a block long. So people are walking about in the street. Yes. Okay. So

I believe they had those kind of like fold up things that are like don't drive down the street.

Yeah.

They're just like the wooden sawhorses kind of things.

It also probably was like generally known to people in the area this was going on.

There were some street closures.

Yeah.

It's South by Southwest. Yeah. People in that city know what's going on. And so many streets are closed that I'm sure like in that area, people just don't even try to drive around. So no one's really thinking about that part of it, that they're walking in the street. I don't think I would be. Yeah. And you do it the whole time. So going from place to place.

So I'm standing in the back of this line and my two friends went in to see, could they just get straight in? Like we were trying to see how we avoid waiting in a line. And so I'm basically holding a place for us. And I start to realize we can hear every song perfectly from out here. There's no reason to wait in line or go inside. Like if we really want to hear X, we can just stand here and hang out on the street, whatever. Yeah.

Or on the sidewalk or wherever we want. And we'll be able to fully get the concert and we just won't be able to see it. So that's what I'm thinking where I'm like, if this is already sold out, there's 30 people waiting. We're not getting in here. Like, let's just enjoy it. Yes.

Yeah.

Let's be realistic. Get a corn dog, whatever. So I get out of line and walk back up toward the front of the venue. And my friends are coming out of the venue. And I basically say, make my pitch of like, what's the point of this? So we're all kind of talking about what the options are. And As we're talking about it, I am standing facing the venue.

My friends are facing me facing the street. And I hear a noise behind us that just sounds kind of like there's a loud car sound and kind of a loud contact sound. It just doesn't sound like anything crazy.

And It's just like that sound where your brain is telling you, this is a sound that shouldn't be happening.

Right, exactly. But not like your whole body jerks or anything. It wasn't to that degree for some reason in my memory. But also it's like thinking back on something like this is like, how well could I recall a moment that's this bizarre and kind of extreme? So what happened is, it's like my friends are looking forward and as I start to turn... It's a car charging up the street that had been blocked off. And what I think are cardboard boxes flying through the air, it's actually people. Because that car that turned up the street going probably 30, 40 miles an hour just plowed through that line I had just been standing in. And I kind of like, as I turned, I was like, oh, this is a horrible thing. And I turned back away. Like, you don't

want to see what this is kind of thing. And I looked at both of my friends who, like, of course, were white as sheets. And kind of the craziest thing now to remember is that the car went through and then a cop car went through. So this was a high-speed chase where the lead car ran over and hit people and the cop car kind of followed them. I have no idea if they ran over people as well.

I don't know what actually happened because I turned back away. But then when I turned around again, everybody on the other side of the street who wasn't in the street, everyone had their phones up and out like this. Like, it was this very strange, especially for... To record?

Yes. Oh.

Everybody. Everybody.

Whoa.

That was really shocking because I was like having that foremost in your mind. Maybe they had their phones in their hand. I don't know.

Yeah.

But all of a sudden it was just like this and it was like everybody recording. Wow. And I was like this. And then I just grabbed the hand of a girl standing next to me because I was like, what the fuck is going on? And it was like we both grabbed hands and we're just kind of looking and there's just people, probably 15 people just laying in the street.

And....

I looked down and I saw a shoe just laying by itself. And then I saw some blood on the sidewalk and I was staring at it like, what is this? Because it was like it happened in pieces, even though it was clearly just a kind of thing.

It's that phenomenon you hear about where your brain sort of slows things down and breaks it up because you're in the moment. You know, you turned away to spare yourself emotionally of having to witness it, which is, you know, your brain and probably just reacting really quickly like you're not going to want this imagery. Yes.

And I think it already did it because I had the imagery and it changed it into cardboard boxes. That was crazy. And it's like, oh, I saw people flying through the air. Obviously, everyone did. But as I was staring at the shoe and the blood, my friend Andy, Andy Peters, one of the funniest and goofiest comedians of all time, turned into everyone's dad. I was just holding this girl's hand and like kind of looking around and I just didn't know what we were supposed to do.

I didn't know. It was just all like, holy shit. And Andy Peters... puts his hand on me and our other friend's shoulders and goes, we're getting out of here right now. We started walking down the street, kind of downhill, where the car had broken through that direction. And that is obviously where kind of the most damage to human bodies had been done. So we got down near the shoe and then he went, no, turn around, turn around and keep your eyes down on the ground. And basically turned us around and walked us back out. If it wasn't for Andy Peters, I think I would have stood there just like staring and just like, I don't know.

It was so beyond anything I'd ever experienced. Luckily, in my life, I've been in car accidents. I've definitely caused car accidents. I've like rear-ended more people. My dad can do a whole monologue about it in any holiday. But I had never been near anything like that extreme. Yeah. And so basically it was like, we're getting out of here.

And then Andy walked us up the street and then we turned and just started walking. And we just kept saying, holy shit, over and over. Holy shit, what was that? Like, are those people dead? Like, just saying it, whatever. And we ended up walking about five miles back to the comedy house. Wow. But... Later on, I learned that that's kind of the best thing we could have done for the adrenaline in our system. Oh, interesting. That it's like being able to immediately get clear the adrenaline is like one of the better things you can do for a shocking experience like that. Did you have any idea how far you would walk? No. Yeah, you were just in like a... We kept thinking we were going to try to get into a cab. We kept thinking like we'll

make a different plan, but we just didn't. It was like we were being kind of powered by that adrenaline and that panic. I can't explain it. I think we also felt guilty, like we should have stayed and given our version. But it's like my version was cardboard boxes. Yeah, it was just a very extreme, shocking, and kind of mystifying experience. Because then when we finally got to the comedy house where everybody we knew was... Like, we tried to explain what we had just gone through, and no one knew what we were... Like, everyone's like, whoa, what? Okay. And, like, it was the worst place to go.

Right, because you're walking into this room of, like, warmth and happiness and excitement, and you're like, I just witnessed utter tragedy.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we were kind of trying to explain it to people, but, like, we were getting mad. And I'm sure people were drunk. I'm sure they were, like, partying and having fun. It was absolutely, like... We just, we wanted to be near familiar faces, kind of.

Did you hear and see a lot of commotion from like ambulances, cop cars on your way out?

No, we didn't. I think at places like that, they have ambulances parked every couple blocks. Yeah, that makes sense. So I think there was an ambulance on site as we turned that corner and we're walking up. I'm pretty sure one was driving down. I just don't know. what that post scene looked like at all. And I am selfishly very grateful that I don't know. And then it took me like a couple of days when I realized if I had stayed in line, I would have been the first person hit because I was last in line.

Like that idea of getting out of line, which is just like, why did I, why did, Why didn't I wait three minutes more? Like there are all those kinds of things that start to kind of come to your mind when you're around something like that. Yeah.

Like those questions, they linger. You know, your brain just never lets you forget something like that. Yeah.

My father was a fireman. My mom was a nurse. So there are people who were fine in emergency situations. I mean, they were very trained.

So.

I didn't want to make more of it than need be. I didn't want to be like, well, it could have been me. Like that to me is a selfish, weird stance, but it is like a fact of the story and it is kind of how I feel. But that difference, that kind of like telling the story from the position I get to tell it from, as opposed to somebody that actually was there, I'm insanely grateful, but it also is very eerie. Yeah, it was just such a, so close and so, just so violent. It was really violent.

Yeah, I looked into the incident because I had heard of it. I remembered it immediately when you had mentioned that you were there when it happened, but I didn't know anything about it beyond that people were hit and that there were fatalities. And looking into it, so it was a high-speed chase. A man named Rashad Owens, who was 21 years old, was driving drunk and he died.

tried to evade a police checkpoint. And at that point, this high-speed chase ensues. And, you know, I don't know what that officer's training was or wasn't, but you have to wonder in those moments of, like, you have a lot of foot traffic right now in this area at this specific moment, widely known a lot of foot traffic.

Is there a way to handle this other than a high-speed chase if you are already assuming maybe this person's been drinking?

Yeah.

Yeah, so he sped down, you know, a one-way street. He drove through wooden barricades into a dense crowd outside the Mohawk nightclub.

The Mohawk, that's right.

And there were four fatalities and 23 people injured. But yeah, it was Stephen Kramer, 35 years old, from Amsterdam, Jamie West from Austin, Sandy Lee from Mississippi, and DeAndre Tatum from Fort Worth all passed away. And, you know, the arrest, police eventually catch Owens shortly after the crash and a Texas jury convicted him of capital murder. Life in prison without the possibility of parole. And following this incident, South by Southwest and city police added stronger barricades during this festival, better lighting, parked patrol vehicles at intersections to protect the pedestrians.

And so.

you know, they did enact, I think, stronger precautions. And Rashad Owens, he was a father of six. He was raised in a very Christian home, moved a lot as a kid, had earned his GED in Alaska and was studying music production through an online program. I mean, it's terrible, right? It's like he's in prison for the rest of his life.

His kids will grow up without their dad.

He's 21. He was 21.

And when you think about like, You know, there's no excuse. But at 21, I mean, you are a baby. Like the dumb things I did at 21. The selfish things I did at 21.

Yes. I saw a bunch of old friends last night and we were talking about that and the risks we took that we didn't realize how risky they were. We didn't realize what we were kind of buying into and how lucky we were that it never, you know, it never resulted in like a DUI or something like that. But it could have and in certain instances should have.

And it doesn't really work that way. But something like this where it's like, to me, it's another life lost situation. A 21-year-old man, father of six, who's just in prison for life now.

Right.

Not making excuses, but it's just... That's its own tragedy. It's a compounded tragedy upon tragedy. It's just horrible.

Yeah, because it's like if you believe that people are redeemable at all, you have to wonder, is it a 21-year-old, their whole life ahead of them? But then it's like for the families of the victims, you know, that what is it to them to have some level of accountability?

Yes, absolutely.

When I think back to my early 20s, I was living in New York at the time. I had gone to school. I went to Wazoo in Pullman, Washington, in a wheat farming town. I brought my horses to school with me.

I brought my dog. I didn't drink.

I mean, I knew nothing of the outside world.

And then you moved to New York.

I moved to New York because I had a high school boyfriend from when I was, I think I had just turned 16 when we started dating. We dated until like the last semester that I was in college. And I decided just on a whim, I was like, it's not the right person for me. And we broke up. And I was like, I think if I go home now to Western Washington, where I'm from, I don't think I will leave. And so I just decided to move to New York. But the point of me telling you that is that when I moved to New York, I had never drank. Here I was meeting people who are still some of my lifelong friends, but I wanted to be cool. I had never had sushi before. I'm like, yeah, I love sushi. I had never drank.

Give me some of that. Yeah.

And so all of a sudden I'm making terrible decisions. But I mean, yeah, your early 20s, you do very stupid things.

It also makes me wonder, and I totally hear you with the victims who just were trying to be at a music festival, like nobody is trying to argue that no one should have been punished for a crime like that. I just wonder when someone is running from something like a DUI stop is like, was his whole life on the line? Was it like, if something like this happens again, I'm done? Or it makes me kind of go into that of like, what was behind the idea? Because I feel like, and I could be wrong, but what I feel like, what I remember is that there was a gas station at the corner bottom of the block. And I think he cut through the gas station or is there something about that part that maybe was the first thing that everybody heard of like there's crazy car stuff.

But like I think everyone on that street was like, well, that's just for over there because, of course, we're on this blocked off street. Like there's this very naive festival attitude of like, well, that's that stuff over there. It's blocked off.

No one would ever think to drive through it. Right.

You wouldn't even come near here. And obviously everybody knows this famous festival is taking place. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, just that insanity and the desperation. But also to me, the police following was the thing that really, the day of, the night of, bothered me so much because it's like, that cop car... must have run over bodies. Like, what was that cop doing?

That was so important in that moment, because it's arresting, it's like, if you're not going to be able to stop him before he gets to this crowd of people, then maybe it can wait until he can navigate around them without the pressure of a cop chasing him.

Yes.

And I mean, there's a lot of conversations around the purpose of high-speed chases. And I was actually driving to Pasadena one day and there was one that happened right past me and it was a green Jeep and it ended up crashing into like the Warner Brothers lot. And I don't think anyone was hurt miraculously, but when it passed me, it was going so fast that I remember thinking like, I don't even want to be on this freeway anymore.

Yeah.

You know, I'm curious, obviously my favorite murder is a true crime comedy podcast, but having just lived life and experienced something like this, Do you think it's had any impact on the way you hear true crime stories or produce true crime content?

Well, yeah. I mean, I think everybody can tell a story like this in some way and easily tell a story like as a witness or as a person who left unscathed. And really underlining that, that I absolutely know this is not a story about me, except for that I was lucky enough to get to walk away unscathed, which, you know, many people didn't. And I think the thing that people liked about our podcast was acknowledging the reason you're interested in true crime is because maybe you haven't left a situation unscathed. Maybe there is a comfort in knowing you're not alone or that other people understand or understand.

You know, there's a million ways to approach, but the idea that just because you are consuming something doesn't mean you know it very well, I think was an incorrect assumption that got kind of cleared out when true crime really started making the wave that it made in 2016. It all happened very simultaneously, and there was this audience that was like, we are absolutely here for this. I do think that that, for myself, that exact situation didn't change the way I approach talking about true crime. hearing people from our audience talk to us about what they wanted to hear and what they didn't want to hear is what changed the way I talked about true crime. Because, you know, there's the aspect of it where you kind

of can go, oh, in talking about something like this, you can say, okay, I take comfort for the fact this hasn't happened to me. And now that I know that these are the details of what happened to this person, I can memorize those details and make sure it doesn't happen to me, which of course, you know, very well is all fake and just a way we all kind of comfort ourselves, especially women in this culture. But I do think that these are human stories. Horrible things happen to people a lot. And turning away from it, putting a nice face on it, pretending it didn't happen, isn't the way to process it and grow better from it.

And I think that's maybe part of it is like, there are people who are like, it shouldn't be, quote unquote, entertainment. And it's like, right, it isn't in that same way. It's a different, I guess, interest that people have, which oftentimes is about self-soothing or it's about making an experience that lives inside you feel better than it does.

In my work in true crime, it feels very much like connection. And even though I have never experienced what these people have experienced that I'm interviewing, but you know, sometimes people will sort of ask me like, oh, I could never do that. That's too sad or too hard. And look, like there are definitely moments where I have to take a step back. I mean, I've noticed, especially since having my daughter, like sometimes I get like way more emotional than I ever did before. But at the end of the day, like when I'm speaking with someone about what happened to them, sometimes, you know, they'll sort of stop and just say like, no.

One's asked me about this in years. And You know, I still think about it every day.

Or, you know, I recently interviewed someone who is, it's on our feed about an embryo fraud, this person who went through IVF. And she was like, my husband doesn't like to talk about it. And I was thinking like, that's understandable. But I also wonder how that would feel. to go through IVF, learn that your doctor was like this world-class con artist who was stealing reproductive material. And then your husband is processing it in a way that is different than you.

Yep.

And so it meant so much to her to share her story. But yeah, I think it just also reminds me everyone's gone through something.

Yes.

And it's that cliche. I mean, not cliche, but you hear it all the time. Like everyone's fighting a battle you don't know about.

And, you know, it's really true.

And I'll interact with someone and They'll remind me of, you know, a mom I just interviewed whose daughter was missing. And you're like, you just really don't know because people have to get up and live their life every day carrying God knows what. And for me, that's like the purpose in it. You know, people are interested in crime because I think something Hannah and I especially learned on Opportunist, our last show, was that People don't usually wake up one day and decide to do something criminal.

Yes. Right.

All of us are probably always teetering on doing right or wrong. And people get in over their heads. There's also people who, you know, yeah, they're problematic. But usually even in those instances, they have a history that has built them in that way.

And there's a reason. There's a reason. Everybody has their reasons. And I do think the point of life is not to stay comfortable. You can't. It's like as we all go through life and age, more and more stuff happens to you or stuff, you know, accrues over time. And this idea that we're all supposed to live untouched and be happy all the time is bad for you, I think, because...

It doesn't brace you. And I mean, this is very much, you can tell I came from first generation, you know, immigrant family, because it's that thing of like, how do you stay strong so you can feed your family, so you can, you know, establish your home here? How do you get through it? How do you have three jobs and work them all anyway? And then something like this happens, you know, that is what life is. And I think, you know, hearing people talk about it or knowing and witnessing what people go through You know, when we do our stories, every once in a while we'll get a quote from like a survivor or a family member. And it's this beautiful chunk of wisdom that's earned. It's what they get to come to after a horrible experience and

a heartbreaking experience, which is what we're all supposed to try to do with our horrible experiences, you know.

Yeah, and to those people who are willing to share that side of themselves after having gone through something terrible, it's like, in those cases, I'm like, oh, how lucky am I that I didn't have to experience that and can choose to carry this with.

Me and learn something from this.

And yeah, I mean, that to me is like when I really started to love producing quote unquote true crime content. It's like, wow, people are going through a lot and like, I want to hear these stories.

Yeah. And it's a good way for them to... you know, it is talk therapy in some ways, but it's also validating because it's like, of course you care about these things that happen to these people. And it's like, people should know people care about them. They should know that that's the thing that, you know, that's how many people that I know approach the content. It's like, what happened?

Why did it happen? What can I do for myself preventatively? What can I do for people who've been through something like this? Like, that's kind of how we made our way through what we were doing. Because we started in just complete ignorance thinking we were talking to each other. And then suddenly it's like, now you have to figure out how to do this correctly.

I mean, the way your show grew, it's amazing. And I feel like certainly I would be grateful for that level of growth. But it's also like the stakes get really high really quickly before you know what you know years later. And it's like you're just talking to your friend and you both have this like comedy background. And then all of a sudden, there are ears from everywhere listening. Yeah, that's a lot.

Yeah, it is. But look, I couldn't be more grateful every day because I know myself and I know my motivation. So if other people feel differently, that's up to them. But I also think that in situations like this, like I would like to next time be the Andy Peters. Because I didn't know what the fuck was going on when we were going through that. And for some reason, Andy had this thing in him. He was like, nope, look down. Do not look at the street. Like he guided both of us out of this war zone type of like it was it was so extreme. And he just kind of got us out of there. You know, he would laugh and I would say this to him.

Like you would be the last person I would choose to think that you would do this. Because he's if you saw his comedy, he's just so funny and so goofy. But he had this thing in him, which is like, and that's the other piece, is we are called upon in life to become more than what we are because of the shit that comes at us. I mean, I remember talking to my sister when I got back. I took a couple of days off work and I called my sister at one point. She's my older sister. And I was like. I don't want to like do the thing where all of a sudden I start screaming in the grocery store or something that's like I'm going to surprise myself with the shock or trauma of that experience.

And my sister goes, how long has it been? And I go, I don't know, 48 hours. And she goes, you're fine.

And I'm like, Older sister absolutely can attest to that.

As the older sister.

Right?

It's like if they say so. I said something and I was just like, well, just what if something happens? And she goes, but it didn't happen to you. As close as it got, it didn't happen to you. Like, don't take on problems that are not yours because it would be so sad if it had happened to you. It really did happen to real people. And you can step out of that situation. what if my mental whatever, because it's like, because you don't qualify for that. So step back, get a real sense of what your life is and how lucky you are. And what a miracle it is that you decided you didn't want to wait in line, that you're a diva and you walked out of that line. And then you had a really good friend that got you out of there before, you know,

it got into true mayhem. It's kind of like that is, I think, a good approach to where it's like you don't have to stare horrible things that happen to make it so that you're doing some sort of penance. Life is hard enough and you will have your own problems and save it for that stuff and like be there for other people and be sensitive of what other people go through. But don't conceptualize about hardship, like feel the real lack of the hardship and keep it moving.

Yeah, like in the best interviews, the interviewer is not centering themselves in the story. And it's like that sometimes happens. I think people want the other person or in experiences like this where maybe they had a close call, but someone else was an actual victim. It's like, There's a need to fill this, like, I do feel bad. I do understand. But I think your older sister gave you great advice.

Right? I mean. It was very well-timed, too, because I was, like, just entertaining enough where I was like, that was kind of horrible. What if... What if? Whatever. And then Laura was just like, no, no, just don't. No, don't do it.

You're not going to scream in the grocery store. Get yourself together.

Stop it. Go back to work.

In a few years, there'll be DoorDash. Like, yes, it'll be fine.

You'll be fine. And then a couple of years after that, something very big is going to happen. I mean, I think that's the other thing, too, is how do ambulance drivers, how do EMTs show up to a scene like that? There's so much more to consider and talk about that has nothing to do with the people that were able to walk away. And that kind of out of context horror to me is like the people who came in afterwards and got the 24 people that had to be hospitalized, like got them out of there, got them stabilized, whatever it is. It's like that's why we call those people the heroes is because it is genuinely heroic to walk away.

into a thing like that. Oh my gosh.

I know. My good friend, her husband was an EMT for a long time and he would come home from work and just be really quiet, but then he would get up and, you know, do it again. And I mean, he saw everything doing that in L.A., but he's the right man for the job.

Right. Like so calm, so.

Collected when I'm like, wow, I'm glad there are people who can do that.

Yeah, for real.

I'm curious because, you know, your work involves crime stories. Do you have any crime stories that you follow just because you're interested in them?

You know what was weird? Well, just about this one. We could not find anything about this for so long. Andy and I actually sat up that night back at our friends like Airbnb and just sat in his room in the Airbnb waiting for it to come on the local news. And it never did.

That's actually surprising given that people were immediately recording because this was still like Twitter and everything else.

I mean, I have to imagine.

I don't remember when we could start posting videos on Twitter even.

I know. I don't either. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, Twitter was another thing, like thinking about, you know, you guys starting MFM and having this enormous growth back before maybe fully understanding the scope of what was happening.

But I had a.

Twitter early in my 20s, right after I moved to New York. I thought I was going to be a comedy writer. And I was making all kinds of jokes with no understanding of the bigger world.

Yes.

And I had a moment, maybe I was 25, where I'm like, this will be permanently deleted.

I have a lot to learn.

And I look back at that moment and I'm like, thank you, 25-year-old Pasha. Like, I needed you to do that in that moment because it grew quickly because Twitter was smaller at the time.

And so, gosh. But we can't know what we don't know when we don't know it. And I think that the internet is really wants to punish people for not always knowing everything since day one. But that's just kind of the nature of social media is just it's mostly there for cancellation. It's mostly there for judgment. I am a willing participant in all of those things. So it's like my thing was always like, yeah, well, this is my numbers up. Like I've been asking to be a performer, be, you know, in the business in some way. This is what it's like to be in the business. You hear back from people who Either don't like you or want you to do things differently. And I think part of the reason we were popular in the beginning is because

we did. Like we listened to people and then made adjustments and talked about mistakes, which I think isn't that common. It's a hard thing to do. You know, it's embarrassing. and it's hard to be wrong and to fuck up and all those things. But I do think that like bigger picture, I'm so proud of the fact that nowadays it's like the concept of red flags is just standard practice.

Women are talking to each other all the time and communicating. They're not agreeing to kind of weirdly be pitted against each other or buy into kind of that old thinking. Like, I feel like there is this very real progress that's been made, especially for women, because of those conversations. You know what I mean? Whether it's the Tinder swindler and people talking about like what bad boyfriends look like versus, you know, people learning what love bombing is. Totally.

Like things I had no concept of 15 years ago. I mean, well, I met my husband about 15 years ago, but he wasn't one of those people.

He loved Bombay just right. Yeah, our first date at Hugo's. I was like, the lighting is horrible. What is this place?

But yeah, I mean, the conversations that happen, like even on the night of a relatively new show, we've had some feedback that has been a little bit like, you know, first of all, I get this, like, my stomach tightens because I don't want to have done something wrong or embarrassing or hurtful to the person we spoke with. But, you know, then you sit with it and you're like, oh, okay, I can really take this and learn from it and do better in my next interview. And so I'm grateful for that feedback.

Yeah. Criticism is tough, especially because who is this person? Like, that was always my thing is, like, luckily I was middle-aged when all this happened and had already been a stand-up and already had a little bit of that kind of experience, worked with people who were very much in the public eye. So like I had a little bit of awareness of the possibilities of the insanity, but I thank God wasn't in my twenties because I knew, you know, I wasn't there to be a model and I wasn't there to, you know what I mean? The hot or not question was never relevant to me. I was like already almost 30 when all of that stuff started. So the internet, that kind of like living in it and on it never made sense to me in the first place.

And then that feeling of when someone criticized, it's the old thing of like, if someone criticizes you, you remember it forever. And if they praise you, you'll forget it immediately. And that I think is the, that's the money making element of the internet is like, oh, did this thing make your stomach seize? Great, we'll make 20 more of those because that's how we get your attention. Yeah, it's so funny.

Like we have all these great reviews and I remember the emails where people were unhappy and I think of them a hundred times more.

Oh, yeah. Word for word.

Yeah.

I remember the tweet where the girl said, why these two? And I was reading it and then I was just like, oh, that's kind of true. And then it's just like, then you feel like you're almost in a relationship with some rando. Right. Where... It's like that can be their opinion. It's like, but why would I suddenly be like, this is fact? And I think that practice, I don't know, all of it is good practice for like.

In life, you know, you're not going to do everything right all the time. So like, how are you going to react when you don't? And. If people are going to trust me with their stories and putting them out there, then I just tell myself, well, realistically, I want all the feedback I can get.

Yes. Because that is important.

You know, there was an episode earlier on in the show with a woman named Tennyson Jacobson who her and her husband together fought off a home invader. He was, I think, deemed mentally ill, but he was there to kill her. He was there to kill her. And her husband... happened to be this like CrossFit high school wrestler, college wrestler, something like that. And he was able to physically restrain this man for, I think, almost 20 minutes. It was a long time, like truly full body exhaustion. But there was a moment in the episode where the guy had come to the house earlier that day, but he had left.

And so they were all freaked out, but the police assured them they never come back. So they all were like, okay, I guess they never come back. And so at like one o'clock in the morning, their little dogs start barking and Tennyson wakes up her husband and she's like, can you take them out?

I'm just like still freaked out.

And he... Gave her like what is such a normal reaction of like, I'm annoyed. You know, he probably didn't pick out these Yorkies, right?

Yeah.

And so he's getting up with these dogs and take them outside at one o'clock in the morning out in the woods. And so in whatever way she just in relaying this interaction to us expressed that her husband was like just slightly annoyed that this was happening. And the way that people reacted to that was so harsh on him.

And I thought to myself, like, wow, this man is a hero in this story.

Yeah. Like a hero.

He saved basically his entire family. I mean, him and Tennyson worked together and it was a tragic situation all around. But he was able to restrain this man who was there to kill her.

Yeah.

And because he reacted in a moment about taking dogs out, people jumped on that. And I thought like, whoa, that was not, I hadn't even gone there.

Right.

And so now, you know, for example, like that episode, now when we make those calls in editing, I'm like, how is this going to come off? And just trying to make really sure because I'm sure that sucked because the reviews were like, there was a lot of engagement on that episode that was calling that out.

And it was hard. It's so strange. It's very hard to anticipate things like that. And then... they can take on a life of their own. And it's that kind of thing where it's like the internal, or I will say the, what I would assume is the kind of spirit of it, of like, you know, don't make things OK for men who don't treat women well, which is like, sure, sure.

But you're putting that on a situation where actually you're not listening to the story, because if this guy was a selfish asshole, the back end of the story would have never happened.

Right.

Like it's that kind of thing where they call that the bean soup theory, where it's just like, what about me and my beans? I also think there's a part of the Internet that that is fake. And it is absolutely, I mean, I know there's plenty of real people with real opinions, but there's also a bunch of bot generated, putting things places, you know, like everyone wants a hot take.

So there's no hot take in saying what an amazing story and what a great husband. Yeah. It's just waiting to be enraged. Yes.

Or mad at someone and you're like, wait a second, but you know, I put that out into the world. And like, yeah, that is something that I don't take lightly.

And yeah, learning experience. It's just so weird. It's like podcasts are forever. I'm the most grateful for realizing when I first signed up on Twitter, because I was a little bit late. And I remember when I was about to do it, I was like, just remember, every single thing you write can be brought up later. Like this is permanent internet permanence. And so anytime I would do anything that even would be, because there was like before 2016, there was that era of kind of like, I'm being edgy.

This is edgy comedy that then two, three years later was like, oh my God, how dare you're the worst person in the world. This is why I deleted my Twitter. Yeah. I mean, for real, right? Because you're like, oh, I actually didn't mean it that way. Oh, wait, but I see. You're right. And I should have never even been in this. Like, And that sensitivity, while oftentimes very important, there's oftentimes people reacting because it's like you've never listened to this group of people before. There's people where they're like, no, you don't get to say that. We finally have the microphone.

You don't get to say that anymore. Yeah, a good thing. Great all around. But then you're sitting there like it oftentimes puts people in that like hyper defensive, like, well, now I'm going to triple down. I think that's a big part of like the red pill reaction.

Yeah.

Evolution is people being like, I can't be wrong. How dare you? I'm not going to apologize. You're wrong. And just up, up, up.

Or like blaming everything on quote cancel culture.

It's like.

Is it cancel culture or is this person someone who really needs to take a seat and take accountability?

Yeah. Looking back on like old magazine covers from the 2000s where it's like, disgusting. How did we, what were we doing? And cancel culture is the reason all of that got curbed because it was like a frat party everywhere we looked kind of.

Yeah. I remember my dad is a, he worked at Microsoft for a long time. And so he was very much thinking about like, the internet and his kids being on the internet. And he told me from the very first moment I got online, he was like, which I don't think I was even allowed to like have my space or Facebook until I was, I think in college or maybe late high school. Like this is forever. Anything you put out there, it's forever. And I remember thinking, I'm not worried about any of this.

Meanwhile, we're all uploading like full albums.

I mean, every horrible night out or like Halloween costume or you're just, you know, I don't know what it.

Was, but luckily it was pretty tame. But yeah, I deleted that too. Yeah. You never know.

Yes.

It's such a different world. And it's a world, I mean, now that I don't personally have a lot of control in because I don't know anything about computers. I can barely use my stupid phone. So it's like less is more for me. And also it's like, that's fine because I'm an old gal. I claim old. But I do think that people get on and they get very, they tell themselves they're making a difference or that kind of idea of watching a bunch of other people do something and I'm going to do it too. And there's not a lot of critical thinking is a thing that I would love to see also evolve along with all the other things that we watch evolve as they exist and become a big part of our culture.

Yeah yeah I would love to see that too I also want them to figure out how to detect who are bots because bots are telling people what to do and how to do it. The most insane, like you'll be scrolling Instagram and all of a sudden it's an ad.

Quit your job.

You could make five grand a month doing this from home. And you're like, there is someone out there who thinks this is real. Like this can't be on the internet.

But it is, you know.

It is. So hopefully that's all figured out before my kid is on the Internet because I'm scared.

You just move to a mountaintop, you'll be fine. Just go to a mountaintop.

Sometimes we'll get the phone out at a restaurant in a moment of desperation and we have videos uploaded. Well, my husband sweetly uploads anything to do with the knife. And so it'll pop up like Hannah and I and she'll start going, Mama!

Mama! mama, like at the screen. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so cute. But eventually I'll have to monitor her a little more closely. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking.

The time today, Karen. Of course. I love this show. Thank you. You guys are really great at what you do. Thank you. We're so happy to be here. Yay. So fun.

Yeah. Well, that's our episode for today. Thanks for listening and we'll be back next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com. Or you can follow us on Instagram at The Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at The Knife Podcast.

This has been an Exactly Right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith.

And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogle and Alexa Samorosi.

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

Off Record: Red River Street (with Karen Kilgariff)

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