4 Dimensions: Encounter

Steve Zank: Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of the Lutheran Worship Podcast. My name is Steve Zank, joined by Kip Fox as always. Kip, how you doing?

Kip Fox: I'm doing great, Steve. How are you?

Steve Zank: Doing good. we're like a duo here on this channel, and I love hanging out with Kip every week talking about issues of worship. We are in a series right now, we just started on the four dimensions of orandi. That's a very technical term, but the kind of the four dimensions of thinking about our practices in the church, especially in the Lutheran church. And the four we used are defined by Professor Mashke, Dr. Mashke, in his textbook, Gathered Guests. And as a quick recap, then we'll talk about all four. But today we're gonna focus in on a single one The four are encounter, education, evangelism, and expression. And the way we think about this is that in a church service. All four are happening and they're in the balanced tension. And if you have too much education, you might miss out on encounter. If you have too much encounter, you might miss out on expression. So those are all the way we think about this in this series. But today we're going straight into encounter Kip. Have you ever had a encounter with somebody that was incredibly memorable?

Kip Fox: many. I remember meeting my wife for the first time, having an

Steve Zank: Yeah.

Kip Fox: encounter with my wife for the first time in a little Italian restaurant on the west side of town. And I'll never forget that encounter. She was beautiful,

Steve Zank: Yeah. Awesome.

Kip Fox: she was funny, and I thought How about you, buddy?

Steve Zank: Nice. Well, I got one on the other side of spectrum. I actually encountered Kobe Bryant once before he passed away. in a in and out parking lot. I my leg was kinda

Kip Fox: Wow.

Steve Zank: up. I was I was with the great John Jordan and some other people that we both know.

Kip Fox: Wow.

Steve Zank: And my leg was on the steering wheel because I was kinda relaxed and the it was a long wait in line. We're just hanging out.

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: And I I got my leg off and on the way down I I hit the honker of the of the steering wheel by accident and I honked.

Kip Fox: no.

Steve Zank: And in front of me was a Bentley. I'm like, I'm so

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: sorry. Like I would Literally accidentally honked at this car.

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: And by the time I got up to the front, the people at the window were just freaking out because it was Kobe Bryant. So I accidentally honked at him.

Kip Fox: Wow.

Steve Zank: So I didn't actually see him, but you know, he was a big deal.

Kip Fox: Man, you've been you've seen a lot of famous people, Steve. I remember my first encounter with John Jordan v very clearly. Be because

Steve Zank: Yeah. Yeah. What was that like?

Kip Fox: I was I was sent to him as an intern before ever meeting him and this was before Google because we're old. So I didn't know who he was, what he looked like. I thought he was somebody else that I'd met years ago, but he wasn't that person. And it was it was literally shocking. Like I don't know who you are. I thought I was expecting someone else. But

Steve Zank: Yeah.

Kip Fox: man, a lot more encounters like that before the internet. Now when we have an encounter, you could just if you're gonna meet someone, you just look up and go, What are they like? You know? I'm getting off off off the road here.

Steve Zank: Yeah. No, A at at the very at the very heart of the idea of gathering for the divine service, the very heart of that is the assumption there's an encounter. There's gonna be an encounter. We're not gathering f to learn a Bible story together. We're not gathering

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: just for to be with community. We're not gathering just for the donuts and coffee. But the reason why we're invited to the divine service week after week after week is for an encounter. And it's for an encounter with the with a the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Trinity with God Himself. And that is at that really the at the core of the divine service. That without that, I don't know what we're doing. You know, it's it's not

Kip Fox: Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Zank: worship and it's not reception of God's gifts. It's something else. And so if you want encounter, I think then one of the most important things is asking what is the encounter like? And I think that could be a good conversation to get into the this idea of of the dimension of encounter. The ceremonies that we use in worship As worship planners, putting it together a service, those ceremonies are setting the table for what the encounter is going to be like. And that's a key way to think about your worship planning: is that you are actually given the task of planning the encounter. And that's a heavy thing to think about.

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: So the take one aspect. If your service is approached reverently. And you think about the the songs you pick and the way you conduct a service with reverence, you're inviting people to encounter God in his greatness, in who he is, and sort of start off with the reality like, hey, that old saying, right, God is God and you're not. That's not a bad thought to have what is as you enter the divine service, that that God is God. And you're being invited to his presence. That's a key thing to think about. if we're overly informal, then we can give the impression then that that in God's presence, in that encounter, it's just like meeting a buddy for f like fish and chips. I guess no big deal. It's just not you know, nothing about it that's

Kip Fox: Sure. Yep.

Steve Zank: has weight.

Kip Fox: That sounds tasty. No, I immediately think

Steve Zank: Ha ha.

Kip Fox: of kind of the two two extremes, where again we we communicate to our people but th the choices we make who God is and and how that encounter goes. And so I can immediately visualize both of those things that you're talking about. One of things I love about our certificate program is that you start off I I think this is in the first semester or the first what's it called? First first module.

Steve Zank: Yeah, the first module, first seven weeks.

Kip Fox: You we t we talk about the invocation and you talk about not only are we we naming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but there are there are images and beliefs and understandings in it within each of those persons that is reflected when we say father, son, and holy spirit. And folks may or may not know that, but even as we begin our encounter in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we are giving folks right off the bat an understanding of this God and the way that God communicates with us. If that makes sense.

Steve Zank: Yeah. And when you sta yeah, absolutely, when you establish that, that who who's encountering you,

Kip Fox: Right.

Steve Zank: who's the person that's meeting with you, and you realize it's

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: the f it's the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is the creator the creator of the universe, the sanctifier, the one who brings us close and gives us faith. It's this one, this God, the one who Yeah.

Kip Fox: Yeah. And you can do that, you know, just as you were saying with with the the two different ways to do that, you can do that sort of flippantly, in a way that that doesn't have any depth to it, or you can do that in a way that maybe has so much weight to it or has a tone to it that suggests that God is something other than what he is, you know.

Steve Zank: Yes. And and in the weave app that we've developed for worship planning, we actually identified this polarity. On one side you have the idea of God's transcendence, that we're encountering a transcendent God. And that's the reverence. That's the idea of holiness, of otherness, of separateness. And in that paradigm, a lot of churches like to start with confession absolution because they're emphasizing the fact that God is other and we are sinners and as we encounter

Kip Fox: Yes.

Steve Zank: him. That's an appropriate response. That's one approach. then on the other side is this approach of really focusing on the immanence of God. That's the nearness and closeness. That's like, well, God's my buddy, you know, the buddy Jesus from that old movie, what was that called? Dogma or something like that. Get remember that movie? Was it dogma? I don't know. Yeah. I don't but it's

Kip Fox: yeah, wow. Ben Affleck and Kevin Smith. Yeah.

Steve Zank: buddy Jesus. It's like, hey, Jesus is your friend. He's not your not going to judge you, he understands you. So, but the the truth

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: of who God is in when we encounter the real God of the heavens, the real God who's come to us in Jesus Christ, that God comes to us with attention of both things, right?

Kip Fox: Right.

Steve Zank: He is absolutely transcendent and he is absolutely imminent. And we plan our worship services to encounter, to help people encounter him. I think the key is to keep the tension and keep the emphases in the right places. So during communion. Is probably the best time to emphasize God as imminent. And maybe during right before confession, absolution, wherever that goes in your service, maybe it's a great time to remember that God is transcendent. But the key is, again, with just like the four dimensions are being balanced, within the encounter, you're helping balance this experience that people have. And the reason why I speak this way, I know it may sound strange, but God has given ceremonies in the the services. as a means to encounter him. He has given us his word. And planners choose what words to say, what words to focus on, which of which of God's words to speak when.

Kip Fox: well as you speak about again, we're everything you're talking about, we're talking about encountering God through his word. And so the the selections we make for our readings, the the different aspects of the of the divine service are all proclaiming God's word in a in in its many facets and in its many you know from from law to gospel and everything in between, right? So all these choices that we're making as as we talk about Lutherans, the promises that God is that comes to us through his word and through the sacraments, all these elements of the service, as encounters should be reflected through the choices we're making on what parts of God's word

Steve Zank: Yeah.

Kip Fox: We're choosing.

Steve Zank: Yes. That brings up, I think, maybe a couple different categories, Kip. The first one I want to talk about is this idea of where do we find God? I have one one colleague here who had the sainted professor Norman Nagel for class. And Norman Nagel was a famous college professor, famous for his idiosyncratic methods. He was a very interesting teacher. He would do str things that were not things that a normal teacher would do. So one day the students came in. And they found Professor Nagel on his hands and knees, near the baseboards, maybe maybe muttering to s himself, maybe quiet. And finally he he didn't he didn't say anything until the students addressed him. Professor Nagel, what's going on? And he says, you know, I won't do his voice, I'll just I'll just say. He says, you know, where do we find Jesus? And the students are thinking about where to find Jesus, and he says, This is where you find him. You know, he's at the lowest point. He's right there with us. And there's a way in which the encounter of God that we have in the divine service is one that isn't always what we expect of an encounter with God. And so one way to think about this encounter that I think is maybe not at at home with Lutheranism is the idea that when we gather for the divine service, it's our chance to sort of meditate, to think about God, and to encounter Him sort of spiritually. By spiritually I kind of mean directly through meditation or through repetition of song lyrics or through feelings. But the way that God has set up for us to encounter him is as you were saying, through his word. So we have this encounter of God in the reading of the scriptures, in the presentation of the word in our songs, in the scriptures embedded in different components and ceremonies We're actually encountering God through his word, which is a very interesting, I think a very unique thing in the the the marketplace is the wrong word, but I'll just use it. In the marketplace of different ways of thinking about worship, it's actually a very unique place for Lutherans to say, actually, the main way we encounter God is through his word. And he speaks to us. And we encounter God through his word in written, oral, and sacramental forms. And that's really a big Lutheran emphasis. And so, for example, I think some modern worship leaders will start a service off saying, we're in God's house, let's worship God today. He's with us, let's feel His presence. And then the the songs are designed to create that environment of feeling an encounter with God.

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: And Lutherans will say, Look, it's okay to have feelings. That's actually really good to have feelings. but the feelings are a result in the foundation of the promises of God. They're not a replacement way way to engage him. And so that's I think a really interesting way to think to start off. can I offer offer a second paradigm quickly then, Kip too? There's sort

Kip Fox: Absolutely.

Steve Zank: of then I think the reason why Lutherans focus so much on an encounter through God's word is because They focus on the promised mediated means of encounter. Can you encounter God through a dream? Well, certainly. Pete in the old testament, he encountered people through dreams. He didn't say

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: I'm gonna stop doing that. But it should dream, do you have any guarantee that was God? Or maybe you're, you know, need some need a fruit to get your blood sugar up. I mean, who knows what that is. But God does have me places where he promises to encounter us. And this is the the Lutheran view of this idea of promised mediated means. That he he promises to always encounter us in very particular ways. So yeah.

Kip Fox: Yeah, I think it's it's beautiful. Sometimes I th I think that sounds less exciting to folks. Or le it sounds

Steve Zank: Yeah, it does. I can understand that.

Kip Fox: it sounds less meaningful, maybe. It sounds I I honestly it's for lack of a better word, it sounds kind of boring. yeah. And

Steve Zank: Pedestrian. It's it's back to that. Yeah. Yeah.

Kip Fox: I think maybe we're so used to wanting these experiences we're so trained to have those these kind of emotional experiences through the shows that we watch and through the the things that we plan that it seems less exciting. But in a in actuality it's it's when you think about encounter in that way and when you trust in that promise and then you get to plan How you're gonna be using God's word as a worship leader and you get to understand as someone who comes to church, regardless of how you're feeling or whether or not you feel like there's there's going to be some sort of experience, through his word, you are receiving the promise of his presence is really pretty cool.

Steve Zank: Yeah. 'Cause Yeah, and I I thank God that he gave us these promises for encounter for as a worshi someone who who has in the past helped plan worship. Because otherwise you're just trying to manufacture an encounter. And how do you

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: measure that? each week, how do you measure that encounter if it's by how we feel and the did the s the three songs set up front really help people experience that encounter? And so we'll in a second we'll offer the other the other option besides promise mediated means. But here's

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: But here's the encounter the way God encounters us in scripture. Here are these three different components here. I want to read some scriptures for you to talk about that. So the word. This is Hebrews four. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the vision of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. God's going to encounter us through his word, and that's going to be active. This is now the word plus a sign, which we call a sacrament. baptism now. This is first Peter three. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you. What an encounter right there. God's going to save you through it. Not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the rex res through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And finally, the Lord's Supper here from 1 Corinthians 10. The cup of blessing that we bless. Is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? What an encounter that

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: is. The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread as as we who are many are one body, for we part all partake in that one bread. And so, Lutherans, when they gather, when they think about their services, when they plan their services, This is our bread and forget the forgive the mixed metaphor. This is our bread and butter. this is it. we know God's to come to us in the word. This service is going to be full of the word. in LSB you find so many services chalk full of God's word. and then you have baptism occasionally at you know on services. This is a great way God's encountering us. The Lord's Supper, what an incredible way God's encountering us. And so as Lutherans, this is our bread and butter. Is it okay to have songs that bring us joy, that help us express our joy. Yeah, of course. But we always have our bread and butter. We know that God's gonna encounter us especially in through his word. Kip, the other one, should we do that other other approach? Okay,

Kip Fox: Let's do it.

Steve Zank: The other approach we talked before, but as in other past episodes, but to summarize, it's the idea that we encounter God through praise. And that viewpoint has been getting more and more clarified in the past 20 years. It's been around for a long time, but the mainstream Christianity is starting to really understand this approach to encounter with God more and more. And you can go back and find some episodes we've done on the NAR movement in the past. But essentially this approach is really looking for praise to be the vehicle by which we encounter God's presence. And he's gonna, according to this interpretation of Psalm 22, 3, That God inhabits the praises of Israel. This is this whole theology built around it. So where we where we encounter God in the service, we encounter him in the act of praising him. And so that's a whole different approach that actually Lutherans are not at home with. It's what we see out there in the in greater Christianity. But it's a way of encountering God that we would say it's that's not really at home with our theology. Does it make sense?

Kip Fox: Yeah, absolutely. I think Okay.

Steve Zank: Now but here's a trick question, Kip. Can we encounter God through music?

Kip Fox: Absolutely.

Steve Zank: And and how has that happened in our tradition?

Kip Fox: Well, in our tradition, encountering God through music is through the proclamation of his word in that in song. And so we

Steve Zank: Yeah, absolutely.

Kip Fox: are receiving that word and responding to it in praise. And so in that way there's a dialogue there that God initiates through his word and we respond to.

Steve Zank: Yeah, and who are we to say if you're not if you're singing a hymn or a s a song and there's a line that speaks to you, that you feel you actually feel comfort. You're brought almost to tears of the comfort of the gospel. Who's not to say the Holy Spirit wasn't encountering you in that moment through the word, through the proclamation, to bring about this my and your faith clings to God's promise. So I think that as Lutherans, we also want to be careful not to be open to the fact that that yes, God Can g is God present in working in the proclamation of the gospel in music or the proclamation of the law in music or in our meditation and thinking about God's word? Yeah, of course. Of course. But as worship planners, I think the encouragement here is if you're gonna prepare the people God's people for an encounter with God, there's a few things that are just absolutely critical in our tradition. One is If you proclaim the law, which you should, in the service, God's law, the God's law is going to do some work. God's going to encounter people through his law. It's going to unearth hidden and unaddressed guilt. And so that encounter is going to require most likely a confession, absolution of some kind. And a lot of folks do it in a private way, but in a service, it's really appropriate because God's encountering you with his law. Now, the other encounter then is absolutely the comfort of the gospel. that as you have this l experience of God's law that he works through his word, he's gonna comfort you because y that's the law does this work. that the really the whole point is to drive you into the gospel So the gospel actually then gives you this experience of of being consoled, of being at peace. of this amazing wave of like, I'm okay. Got God's word has declared a new reality over me and Jesus Christ. And so that planning for that week after week, even though it seems like really we're not gonna go on the spiritual mountain top each week and seek God's hidden throne room and it's like, no, I mean the main the main thing we're trying to do here is encounter God where he says he's gonna be found. And

Kip Fox: think yeah.

Steve Zank: all of and all of life is is life of repentance. And so we gather for worship, we're gonna be entered a mode of repentance. of this coin kip that's important is the idea that our encounter with God is not a one-sided encounter. But Nicholas Volterstorff writes this: the deepest presupposition of the Christian liturgy is that God is worship worthy. So if you don't if you encounter God in his gifts, in the service of What you're encountering then is really the God who is worship worthy. And so

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: really it's the encounter with God in his word that he's bringing to us in his gospel that sets the table for the entire gathering. And so, when you think about encounter, really we start with this today because everything that comes from it, ex the expression and the evangelism and all the other dimensions we're gonna talk about are rooted in the fact that God is worship worthy. And so,

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: So really We're gonna go encounter the living God through Jesus Christ. And one last one

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: last point here then, Zach Hicks writes this in his book, The Worship Pastor. He says this, and this is really down to what we're talking about in terms of where God can be found, and not always the most exciting places in the encounter, in terms of our flesh. God's presence is seen through the eyes of faith. Developing these eyes of faith requires coaching. I will sometimes begin a worship service by saying to our congregation, I know it seems like what we're doing is just routine church. I know it seems like this is an ordinary place, but make no mistake, God is really here. And I think

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: that's a great w way to to think about our encounter as they gather for the divine service. I know I've said this before in the show, but it re it bears repeating that when we have communion without the eyes of faith, you know, what is what's going on here? It's almost almost laughable to people. you're going up

Kip Fox: Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Zank: and you're receiving a little wafer, you're drinking a little a

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: little thing of wine, and then you're walking away. that that's that can't be an encounter a real encounter. But the

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: eyes of faith see this as an incredible encounter, an incredible gift. And so I think that's part of the the way that Lutherans think about the divine service is you're working to help mature in people those eyes of faith. So that they

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: know where they where God's to be found.

Kip Fox: Yeah, I I love that and I going back to the worthiness piece, it it reminded me of the Andrew Peterson song that really spread through the church a few years back, with Chris Tallman and exactly what we're talking about here, which is the verses present the gospel. They speak to who God is, they present God's word to his people, and then the people respond. in worship about his worthiness, obviously using the revelation passage. And gosh, if we can start to think and understand as worship planners again that we are communicating through God's word to his people And that communication develops in people an understanding of of the worthiness of God and develops in people a response of praise that may

Steve Zank: Yeah. Yeah.

Kip Fox: take time, that may not land every single Sunday,

Steve Zank: Yeah.

Kip Fox: but as opposed to drumming up some sort of encounter, we can just have people encounter God through his word, which is really cool.

Steve Zank: Yeah, it and a true encounter with the living God as forgiven sinners is one of joy. And I that is something to be excited about. In other words, God has put together divine service in a way that we can gather which even when we confess our sins, we can confess

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: our sins without having to go like, God, will you please, please, please forgive me? We know

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: he's going to. He's promised to. And it's okay to say, I really am sorry. I I see my sin brings me sorrow. That's good. But we never have to wonder, will he bring me his forgiveness next? There's an old story, I forget the the specific details, but it's in the ancient Near East, And there was a guy who was thinking he he know there's a God, he's convinced there's God, he's convinced that that he's something wrong, something wrong to make the God upset with him. He's convinced something needs to happen to make it right, but he doesn't know any of those answers. And so when he gathers to encounter this god that he's of his imagination, he's brought to terror. Because the encounter is one of complete questions and without answers. But the God that we encounter in Jesus Christ, the creator of the heavens and the earth, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we can go and encounter him every week in the divine service. Even if your services start with confession and absolution, you never have to wonder if he's for you. You'd never have to wonder what the encounter is going to be like, 'cause God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And in Jesus Christ He's made us promises. that are enacted in divine service. And I think That's one of the greatest things about the God that we worship is that when we gather for the divine service, we know exactly what kind of encounter i is before us. And it's one where sinners can come into God's holy presence through Jesus Christ and give thanks.

Kip Fox: I love that Steve. This has been a good one for me. I don't know about you. I've had

Steve Zank: Well,

Kip Fox: a great time.

Steve Zank: It's gonna be a fun series. thanks for joining us for this episode on the dimension of encounter. Next week we'll think we'll talk about probably education. as different dimensions. But if your worship planner, stay with us for the entire series. You get some some tips throughout. It's a ways of thinking about planning worship according to these four dimensions. So Thank you, Doctor Mashke. Yeah.

Kip Fox: Steve, can I ask you quickly before before we go, is there if if if I were to go to weaveworship dot com, is there anywhere where I could find some some things some something in the section, the discovery section, the glossary perhaps, those polarities talking about some of the things we've talked about today?

Steve Zank: well, transcendence and immanence was a very important way of talking about that. And really what we encouraged in worship planning is striking some sort of balance. Not 50-50, but the idea is if you're always doing immanence, you're really missing out on the God who is transcendent and thinking about that way. And vice versa. So that's one is the the transcendence and immanence categories a part of that system. And you could always, you know, type in keywords searching for God's word and find different songs. The other other functionality working on now is actually scripture anchors. So you can look for certain scripture passages and find songs that are related to that kind of proclamation. And the last thing I'll say is you could also find songs according to a proclamation or it being more of a response.

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: So as you're thinking about your service and you say you want people to encounter God's I wanna i in this song, I want the the gospel to be proclaimed. You can actually look for songs that are doing that as opposed to songs that are offering a response to the proclamation itself. So yeah, just all kinds of categories you'll find as you search for that tool that'll help be helpful.

Kip Fox: I love it. And don't forget, He comes to dwell. Our Advent theme song is out with resources for with a sermon series and liturgies and charts and orchestration and all those things. And we've got a nine-track Advent album coming out on November twentieth. So stay with us. Keep checking things out.

Steve Zank: See you next week.

Kip Fox: Bye.