Elon Eyes Hyperliquid🚀Coinshares CEO INTERVIEW

0:00 Big moves in the market today, and one is all around the institutional play. You've got ice and hyperliquid playing into this. We are going to get into all of that today, so you don't want to miss it. Before we do that, I want to thank our sponsor. That's iTrust Capital, where you guys can get into your own crypto IRA, cryptocurrency stocks, gold and silver, all available over on iTrust Capital. One account, unlimited possibilities. This is one of the platforms they've been around for quite a while.

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0:47 Let's get into it today. I want to start with this first before we bring our guest on. And this, of course, was news. You had the eyes, the owner of the New York Stock Exchange, now are joining forces with 24-7 perpetual futures operator known as Hyperliquid. And this is something we've been anticipating for a while, and it is now coming true. And when you look at this right here, this just shows you the extent of the connection and also maybe the intent of where this is heading as you see the NYSE joining forces with with TradeXYZ coming on now. So this all plays into one thesis that we've talked about here on the show quite a bit, and that is the institutional nature of how blockchain and, in general, tokenized assets are going to be moving,

1:36 and that is what's happening right now. And there's more news on this. You've got Elon out there now tweeting on this, and I'll show you something on the chart that is interesting about hype that you need to pay attention to. First of all, he retweeted something from Stan Druckenmiller, who has not been very active on X, and then all of a sudden he is, and then boom, you've got Musk, of course, dropping in. And what he's talking about, of course, is the trade XYZ as the partner with ICE.

2:04 So when you look at that along with what's going on with the chart, and I'll show you this right here, this is the chart of hyperliquid. That $ 100 high could be a psychological... mode that people are going to be paying attention to. And remember, right now, the market is very, very normal. You know, I should say, you know, it's sideways.

2:28 Everybody's looking kind of for that next bid. And I think this might be an interesting play because all of this activity that's happening right here, where we saw moving from 81 to 95, this all occurred pre-Elon tweet. Now, I don't know if that's going to have an indicator on this, but Pay attention to what's going on with Hyperliquid right now. Part of this, of course, gets into what's happening with Terry Duffy. And of course, I've got to play a clip that came in from Ripple Swell.

3:00 And this is Terry Duffy addressing what's going on in the markets and really this transition of a next generation finance.

3:08 Take a look.

3:09 Probably the biggest hotspot for you, it seems.

3:14 Is perpetual futures.

3:15 That's a hotspot.

3:16 Why are you so against them?

3:18 We got 12 minutes. You don't have enough time. I will get into it, though, real quick. So it is a highly leveraged product strictly for the speculator. Bitcoin went from $ 118, 000 to $ 80, 000. And you go, Jesus Christ, the CFTC said it's okay.

3:39 You know, of course CME would be frustrated about this. This is a big competitive threat.

3:43 You know, is this taped? That's such bullshit.

3:47 I mean, that's such bullshit. A competitive threat.

3:52 I'm not in that business. So where's the competition at?

3:55 You did add XRP futures and.

3:58 Options last year.

3:59 The chairman and CEO of CME Group.

4:04 All right.

4:04 Well, Dave.

4:08 You see, that, of course, was the issue raging as well. And I think the point behind all of this is that you're dealing with a transition within the market. So I want to bring in our guest because he is now transitioning as well. And that is Jean-Marie Mognetti, who is the CEO and co-founder over at CoinShares. How are you, Jean-Marie?

4:27 Hi, Paul. I'm very well, thank you.

4:29 Nice to see you again.

4:29 So listen. Nice to see you.

4:32 Yeah, a lot of things happening right now in the markets. And it seems as though there is a transition from this next generation finance group, and the collision that is happening with the old world finance group. What do you think about this? Do you think this is just natural evolution of how technology and finance are going to come together?

4:55 Well, I'm not going to be as colorful as Terry, obviously. And Terry is his own animal and a Wall Street legend. So we need to leave it where it is. You know, there is always this change of the guard. If you remember back in the A day of FTX, Sam was going on CNBC saying how he will replace the CME and buy Goldman Sachs. It was the big statement he was making. We know what happened after that. There's always been a friction between new world and old world, between where crypto is coming from and where it is going.

5:36 What you're really saying is like, you know, a resistance effectively from traditional finance. You know, the Delay for Clarity Act is also kind of an illustration of how the bank has been delaying the game to give them time to catch up or if they can. And so all that stuff is part of the same agenda. It's like, how do we keep the control of what is happening and narratives? So we're just really in this transformative era.

6:02 You have new force emerging. You talk about Swell. Ripple is definitely one of these new force emerging. They have a very, very strong balance sheet to keep going and transforming how finance is done. But you get all those things, Hyperliquid, Jeff did a fantastic presentation on the side of Token 2049 in Singapore, explaining the roadmap of Hyperliquid in general, and that was very inspiring. And you can see where it is going. A lot of companies are going to stay, I would say, private for longer. And we need to get a way to address this bright market. Perpetual are a very phenomenal source of liquidity and a source of funding.

6:48 At the same time, they are not an as pure investment and long-term investment tool as would be traditional equity. You know, Terry points about, you know, speculator versus investors is absolutely well made. But, you know, it's in the absence of the perfect solution. It is a better outcome. And, you know, the same way GBTC wasn't the perfect product to invest in Bitcoin in the early days in the U.S.

7:13 It was the only product available in the U.S. So, you know, we never get the perfect solution day one. The solution keep evolving. And today, perpetual is what is available on chain. you know, there is nothing preventing it to be in couple of years to have native token issue or native equity issue on chain. And so all this kind of stuff can keep transforming.

7:33 Well, I think you hit it on the head and that is the transformation because the early stages are usually somewhat wild west. And that's kind of where we are right now. I mean, the convergence between these two particular industries and technology, as well as an industry that is using an old technology that is somewhat outdated, and now transitioning completely dead on with that. So this brings me to a point and a clip, because now you have a major entity like Google who's coming in and doing custody services. And this changes the dynamic quickly. I want to play a quick clip of Terry Duffy talking about this.

8:14 Take a look. You know, at the same time, you've also said that CME is exploring a token.

8:19 Of its own.

8:19 We are.

8:20 For us to have our own stablecoin... allows clients that want to trade more just of the crypto products to allow them to move that because they have that inventory anyway in their accounts back and forth on weekends, even to trade non-crypto products. Right now, it's going to be on a central network with my partner at Google, and a lot of people in the decentralized world don't like that, and I understand that. So I think having a centralized tokenized cash with my partner at Google is a good thing, but I also believe offering other forms of online How to manage margin is also important. That's why I'm creating my own stablecoin. You know, whether it's on Canton's network or somebody else, that's the way we're going to do it.

9:01 The banks seem to like the Canton network, so we will participate in that as well.

9:04 All right, so you see the strategy being built there by traditional finance. And if you look at Sundar Pichai's tweet right here, this was aligning the idea of custody and essentially putting Google in the crypto game. And they seem to be aligned with this for quite some time because they've kind of gone from Gemini 4 Argon now to this new Gemini 4 Carbon, which, of course, could get into this whole security mechanism of Google being the trusted place for custody. What do you think about what Google is doing here and to the remarks that Terry had?

9:42 Well, just starting with the remark of Terry, you know, there's so many wrong things in what he says, I don't know where to start, but like... A centralized token is kind of the screaming one. It doesn't make any sense. anyway um the google stuff is an interesting part however because google has always been this kind of uh um ambivalent uh place when it comes to digital asset in general um google has a very early on initiative about digital asset internally uh and was kind of like the kind of child without parents because Larry and Sergey both, one was hating it and the other one was loving it.

10:21 So there was kind of this kind of ambivalence within Google about what to do with digital asset. And I think post Libra and the entire kind of activity around Libra and the deposition of Devin Marcus and all this kind of stuff which happened when Facebook paused the Libra program, kind of Google said, okay, we're going to stay a little bit away from digital assets for the time being. Now, With the acceleration of AI, you can't really stay away too long of digital asset because unfortunately, digital asset is the kind of native currency of AI. It's like you're not going to be able to get an agent checking in for a bank account at JP Morgan. And we already saw that JP Morgan shut down Muse and all

11:09 the other agent access. The bank doesn't really want the AI agent to access the bank, so the AI agent is going to need to get something else to use. Google understands that very well. Google understands probably that they need to have a way to manage secrets more than effectively just manage tokens because at the end of the day, how do you manage private keys and private keys securely?

11:37 And so basically how do you manage secret? And so this real announcement is really kind of a foray into this kind of a direction now. At the same time, I tell you, having people with the R & D capacity of Google starting to look a bit more into, I would say, custody at large and how to secure private key and how to effectively make the private key quantum resistance is also welcome because it's also, you know, the entire crypto community has been working on that for a long time. But there's been a debate which keeps coming back. So having big players stepping in as well to put some R & D resources weight behind it is going in the right direction and can only be a positive development.

12:17 Well, I think when you look at the business models that Google has been involved in, one that I still argue that is going to fade away is going to be search and possibly even some of the ad mechanisms that are going to be tied to that simply because of the AI tools. Granted, that still may fall back into Google's portfolio, but they've got so many competitors now where when it comes to search, it's Google or nobody.

12:42 So this idea of them becoming a custody and possibly becoming a gatekeeper here for real-world assets, tokenized treasuries, situations that we're going to talk about, even with custodying major assets like Bitcoin or others, are going to be very, very intriguing, especially if they integrate to Wall Street. Let me ask you something. Let's go into your company with CoinShares.

13:07 You guys made a major move here recently. You announced the approval of liquidation of the altcoin ETFs. But yet you kept the Bitcoin ETF here in the US. Explain the strategy that you're doing right now.

13:23 Look, it's a it's a very simple thing. You know, there's not many company in crypto which makes money, you know, say for the exchanges and Coinshare is fortunate to be making money. And so the reason why we're making money was not being VC backed or being kind of like swimming in third party investor cash. is because we have been having a very disciplined approach to our cost base over our lifetime. And there is no reason to keep running product which doesn't make money for the company or doesn't generate any margin. The market is changing extremely quickly.

13:54 The US market has been commoditizing extremely fast. faster than anywhere in the world and concierge doesn't have the distribution network that it is required to go compete with a fidelity or black rock and we're not even competing with them because it will be an arrogant statement so we're not in this kind of game we're not in this kind of competition landmark on a 5 or 20 basis point product so we just want to bring to our customer high value added product and you know we started doing etf in europe in 2014 so In 2026, we have to do something else and keep moving forward. And so we want to keep making the frontier investable. We want to keep being able to push a narrative forward.

14:32 And so there's stuff we're going to shut down, which are effectively not profitable anymore or less profitable, and stuff we're going to keep investing in. And that's part of our overall strategy. So there is nothing wrong in shutting down some product. It's shutting down and launching new stuff. It's like tradable assets at the end of the day.

14:48 So we're just redeploying capacity where we can and saving capacity where we need to.

14:54 So you withdrew the US spot ETF filings. This was XRP, Solana, Litecoin, all this ahead of the NASDAQ listing. And to your point, products do rotate in and out. I agree with you in the sense that if the product's not making money, you just have to kind of reassess. You made an interesting statement.

15:12 But Paul, to your point, I think people rotate even faster than ever.

15:17 Exactly, yes.

15:18 Because today, if you look at the entire narrative of this year, People were in gold in Q4 last year, and then they moved to oil with the conflict, and now they're moving back to AI and HPC in Q3. How do you keep up? And so it keeps moving all the time. And if you look at the speed of rotation happening right now, it has never been that brutal. And, well, how do you keep up? That's where you see all this RWA become very interesting because the RWA are one expression which allow people to keep up effectively.

15:51 Yeah. I would agree with that. And I think the point you're getting at is that there is a shift underway. But you did say something that was, I think, important for the audience to understand, and that is the commoditization that's happening right now. And it is happening very quickly. How far do you think we are? Do you feel like we may see these altcoin ETFs go away entirely?

16:16 Or what is your vision of where these head in the U.S. markets?

16:21 No, you know, people will still have offering. Some people can afford to, you know, that's not our philosophy to do something for free or to do something for not to, you know, we want to product service, which are adding value for our customer and for our shareholder. But, you know, some people don't have this dependency.

16:39 So.

16:40 They will keep running product. You get even some ETF product in the US on the Bitcoin side, which have been for free for a very long time. So not everybody is motivated by producing a service for a fee. We are mercantile in that sense that we want to be able to provide a quality service for a fee. We will always bring value to our customer. And so that's not adding value. So we stepping out effectively of this very small, effectively subset of the market to be able to focus on bigger opportunity. Now, does that mean everybody will follow our lead? Not at all. Some people think it's, you need to get a wider area of product on the shelf to effectively hope to be able to catch people's attention. So it really depends how people

17:21 think about it and how they think about their very own strategy. We have always had a very EBITDA-focused strategy, so that's just our own narrative around that. But at the same time, we launched Zcash yesterday in Europe. Exactly. So it's not like we are stopping stuff to not continue doing stuff. It's like it's permanent in and out about, okay, that's not working enough to justify to be on the shelf.

17:44 Let's remove it to make more space on the shelf for something of a higher quality, effectively.

17:49 Well, let's get into that in terms of the alternative markets, because this is something that we see. Obviously, our channel is viewed in 180 countries worldwide. Only about 45% of our audience comes from the U.S. The rest is global. When you look at, I've got a clip actually of Johan over at Robinhood, and he's talking about Asia. And I want to get your opinion on this after you watch this clip.

18:11 Here we go.

18:13 70% of that trading is happening after hours, after the exchange hours. We see a lot of usage in Asia. Like I was saying, it's very difficult for them to trade during our market hours. It's also very difficult for them to access this type of product without paying a lot of fees. And so we think tokenization changed all of that.

18:31 All right. So Johan, obviously director, I guess, of digital assets over at Robinhood, but he's pointing at Asia. And this is a market that we've looked at for quite a while as potentially being one of the winners. When you think about Asia right now, I know you guys are lockstep with the EU, but what do you think about the growth of blockchain integration in Asia?

18:57 Well, blockchain integration in Asia is working extremely well because the Asian community happened to trade much more and love trading effectively. So the more you can give them effectively underlying to trade, which on top of it happened to be volatile, the more there is an appetite for it. And if you remember, the BitMEX success was really, really focused on Southeast Asia with a massive demand from South Korea.

19:24 So the tokenization game and the access to effectively token which can or cannot be leveraged depending on the one we're talking about is a natural appeal for Southeast Asia. So what Johan is talking about, and we've been talking in the past a few times about it, is absolutely correct. There is an incremental demand coming from Asia for trading product, which you know in the u.s market stopped trading or if they continue they continue on a on a different kind of exchanges and so uh the fact to be able to tokenize it is a way for them to distribute and to turbocharge distribution in a much more wider way even in countries where they don't have a securities license because right now this is not falling under securities

20:05 though to tokenize stock so it's kind of very interesting how stuff are happening and Robinhood has a very different approach to many about what they do here because what they tokenize is share of an SPV. They're not really tokenizing stock. They're tokenizing share of an SPV. So it's a slightly different approach and just taking the shares and making a representation of it on chain. It's like the SPV share, which hasn't distributed. So the technicality behind it is very interesting and giving them the capacity to go effectively beyond the borders and beyond the frontier of their natural environment.

20:39 Well, and you could also kind of follow the granules here because you've got Backpack, SK Securities, this is SK Onyx, partnering up. This is going to be expanding their Korean equity side. So there's a lot of strategic moves being made right now. And it's intriguing to me because you are seeing a lot of this in South Korea, what we'll see in Hong Kong, obviously Singapore, which has been kind of a mecca for blockchain in general. Is there any plan for coin shares to kind of expand into those markets?

21:13 Let me answer that in two steps, Paul. First, to go back to your point, because you're talking about the tokenization happening in South Korea and the backpack example. Let's not forget that the 2X and 3X ETF market, and I would say the leveraged ETF market, in the U.S. is already fueled massively by the Asian market. And people think it's just a U.S. domestic market. It is not.

21:34 It is massively fueled by... Asia market and you can see some ETF provider, which are not the big guys, which are kind of second, third type of ETF markets, who are kind of big player in the thematic and in the leverage side, which are opening offices in Seoul or opening offices in Hong Kong, just to be closer effectively to the market or to one of the demand for this kind of market. So what's happening with the tokenization is just a continuation of what we have seen already happening in the ETF market. When it comes to Coinshare, which was your second part of the question, sorry, let me just finish. When it comes to Coinshare, look, we are a European business. We always had the ambition to be a global franchise. That's why we listed the company

22:21 in the US on NASDAQ main market. And so, yes, one day, if we have the right business case, there will be an expression of Coinshare in Asia. But for that, we need the right business case.

22:33 Well, let's talk about something in the EU, and that is the central bank chief, Kristen Lagarde, is now stepping down. This is nine months early. This is a big deal for Europe because she is somewhat anti-blockchain for sure. She's very bullish for stable coins, or should I say maybe a CBDC angle. What does this do for you guys?

22:52 And what do you think this does for the broader crypto community in Europe right now?

22:57 Look, Kristen is a formidable lawyer. She was a formidable French minister as well. She did the IMF job, which has been pretty good, actually, and a pretty good representation there. Now, she happened to be not exactly convinced about blockchain in general, which is a bit of a downfall. I don't think anything she does right now has anything to do with the international agenda she's having. It has more to do with the political situation happening in France. And I will not be surprised to hear that Christine is.

23:33 Uh, going to make herself a candidate for the French presidential election. Uh, uh, because, uh, there seems to be nobody from the original candidate roster who can pretend to be saving the country. So maybe Christine is coming to rescue the country.

23:45 That's an interesting angle that, yeah, well with what's going on with France, for sure. Uh, AI powered ETFs incoming. We've got a lot of people looking at what's going on with virtuals. Uh, they've just, of course, integrated now the ETFs. If you kind of compare not only that, but, uh, the pro of how they're trading things such as the fed meeting yesterday this is their you know their app butler inside of the uh the platform but what do you think about this do you think we're going to see more ai powered trading especially in the etf side or do you think it's going to go more on the open market it's.

24:19 A it's a sense of history uh you know it's just if you look at the robo advisory uh which has been a very very um kind of taking away some of the IRA job away with people kind of like delegating the power to trade to a robot for the last five or six years. It has get a significant amount of success. I can't tell you how many people in my company has their own AI wealth advisor who tells them exactly how to run, what to trade, what not to trade, and tells them to rotate or not to rotate. And that goes from a marketing guy to effectively anybody. So it's like this is kind of a very transversal trend. It impacts a wide demographic. It impacts a wide community. And everybody is trying to figure out how they can make more money by delegating power

25:12 to someone they can trust. And for some reason, there is more trust put in an AI agent than in your banker. So that tells you everything there is to know about the state of people's mindset. And, you know, it puts back the control, you know, like the self-directed market is a market which is growing with the advent of people like a company like Robinhood and a company like...

25:35 eToro and another company which has been growing quite fast, the next phase of that is how do you replace effectively the advisory side by something which is of better quality? There is no secret that the advisory has been not exactly a phenomenal successful tool, especially if you are not part of the affluent who have access to sophisticated or very, very sophisticated solutions. So if you're just a retail investor and you want to get access to a bit more knowledge and a bit more capacity to have a better return on your investment, the agent proposal is very appealing.

26:15 So the success of that is absolutely not surprising.

26:19 It isn't surprising. I think we're going to see more of it. And the likelihood is this is going to start to trend into some other areas of finance for sure. So we will have you back, Jean-Marie, to talk about that as things start to progress. Thank you so much for coming in today. We appreciate it.

26:33 Thank you, Paul.

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