The Prelim Podcast I Episode 21 — Scott Barnes

0:08 Today's episode has been sponsored by our friends at ProCam, specialty geared by Chapman Leonard, creating moments through movements. Alright, guys. Welcome to the Pre-Limb podcast today. Today on the show, we have Scott Barnes, lighting programmer to the stars.

0:23 Lighting programmer and our first 728. So we're checking everybody off the college. Yes. Call cheat. Call this. What's wrong with me? Yeah. Scott Barnes, 728. He's done, I mean, every basic big Hollywood movie in the last 20-some years. Hunger Games, Avatar, Star Trek, Captain America, Black Panther, Ant Man, Avatar, a little bit of Spider-Man.

0:45 Oh yeah, Iron Man One Two and Three. I mean, this guy's resume is very impressive. Hard to find somebody else stacked up to it. So Scotty Barnes. Hello, welcome to the Pre-Limb Podcast. Hey, thanks, guys. Thank you. Excellent. Thanks for coming in. Where'd you grow up, sir? Dallas. Dallas. Ooh, cowboys.

1:03 Okay. Okay. And uh what was that like growing up? Were you always interested in the Hollywood?

1:10 Um Yeah, I well, I mean, I think I always say that E.T. probably when I was 10, when I saw E.T., that was the first time I realized that that was something people do. You know, that was like the first time I heard of Spielberg and and I was 10, so it's not like it really rang a bell too much, but it was enough to make me realize that was kind of a cool thing.

1:37 I guess I guess you know, as a child, you when you watch movies, it's just magic. You know, you don't you don't you don't know how it's made, it's just it's just like that. Oh, that's just it's real, right? I think right around when I was 10, I think I maybe with the help of my parents, my mom, it became more apparent to me that this isn't magic, this is something people create.

2:00 And I was fascinated by that. And so, like a lot of kids in the 80s, um, got an eight millimeter movie camera, projector, started tinkering around with that, trying to be the next spill work, and just growing up in the 80s, you know, just love movies. I mean, the 80s is like, in my opinion, it's just one of the best decades of movies.

2:21 Yeah. Um, so just growing up around that just kind of made me, and I've always been sort of a visual person, um, an artist, graphic designer, lighting, all that kind of stuff is just like creating. And so um yeah, I just watched that and realized that's something I probably would be interested doing.

2:43 Not knowing really what at what aspect of it. I didn't know like what am I directing or if I'm just gonna be part of the crew or whatever, you know. As I got older, it involved.

2:57 Yeah.

2:57 I've done that. Uh-huh. Um, yeah. So I just realized that was just definitely the business I probably was gonna aim towards. Um and just as I grew up, it just became more apparent.

3:09 And that's an important movie. E.T., I think that hit I mean, I'm obviously younger, but not really. Oh yeah. But yeah, you know, that was for me was a very important movie in my childhood as well.

3:21 Yeah.

3:21 You know, so eighty-two.

3:23 Yeah, that was a good year. 82. Blade Runner, Poltergeist, yeah, polls. The thing. It's like one of the best years of movies.

3:31 Oh man.

3:32 Yeah, 80s, yeah. I was oh my god.

3:35 Yeah, we were a little kid in the 80s. Yeah.

3:37 Um, so yeah, in high school and stuff, you were into photography as well, or it was so uh obvious the my high school didn't have my high school, it was very big on sports, but also very big on theater. Huge on theater. We had a had a really nice theater. It wasn't like a gym theater, it was an actual half-circle, semi-like stadium seating theater with the thrust and the fly gallery and everything.

4:04 Um, there was no option during those years for any kind of film or video production stuff back then at at my school in Dallas, in Carleton, Texas, is where I went, uh, Newman Smith High School. And um so the next best thing for me was to just be part of the theater, you know. So I did the theater thing, I did the tech theater thing, and that really took off and it it did a lot for me.

4:32 It helped me um with some of my craft trades as far as like painting and building sets and designing sets and stuff like that. So I just enjoy that. It was a good alternative to not being able to do anything production-wise. Um, so that's that was my high school years. And what happens after high school, college?

4:50 Did you come out west? Okay, so um so by the time I'm 18, about to graduate, uh I'm definitely a hundred percent interested in being in film production. I I didn't know how I was gonna do it, especially living in Dallas, but I knew that there were some production stuff going on in Dallas. Uh there's a place called Los Clinas Studios there.

5:14 So I um I found a place called Victor Duncan Incorporated, which is now owned by Panavision. Uh years and years ago they bought Panavision Bottom. But they were Victor Duncan was a um a rental house in Dallas um at Los Clinas, and they had a they had a location in Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, and Dallas.

5:39 Those were the four places at the time. I never heard of them. I just sort of discovered them as I was a you know an 18-year-old, 17-year-old, just cruising around Los Clinas dudes looking for something. Uh, and I stumbled in and I talked to them and I told them how I was interested in you know learning more and stuff.

5:54 And so they brought me in as an intern and then I turned into a job. And that's where I kind of first got my hands on equipment. Um, and then by then I was like maybe 18, 19, 20. I was uh doing commercial productions. I even did some days on Walker Texas Ranger, the original with Chuck Morris. Um what was that like?

6:17 Chuck. Oh, it was cool. Uh-huh. Any good stories? Any no, not really. I was just a dumb kid. I didn't, I was just learning. Uh so I did some of that. Also, I think um there was a movie called Pure Country with George Strait that came through Texas. Got to work a little bit on that. Um, and got to also, when I was in high school, I got to go be an extra in an Oliver Stone movie that was in which one, Texas.

6:42 Uh Talk Radio. I don't know if you remember that one.

6:45 I do, yeah.

6:46 And he was there for a lot. You know, he did uh um what was the um well he did JFK there, obviously, but he did that other thing with Tom Cruise. Um I can't remember the name of it.

6:58 Uh Born on the Fourth of July?

7:00 Yeah, he did some days there as well. He liked shooting in Dallas. He had a fascination in Oliver Shotline. And then Talk Radio was another movie he did. It was just kind of a smaller movie compared to his others. We have something in common. I was an extra on the doors.

7:12 Oh, really? Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah. What? That was a different career I had, Pablo. You don't know. Robert Richards talked about this. Yeah. Well extra. There's a little bit of stuff I think. Yeah, when you're young, you're doing whatever door you can get in. It was just like last night.

7:31 We just did a job yesterday, long night. That was an all-nighter as well. In the Bay Area, a concert scene. Yeah. With the anyway, like it was. But yeah, it was that was that was cool watching. That's where I was like mesmerized watching the the process.

7:47 That was like my first real experience. Oh, I I I remember on talk radio, there was a big crowd scene at a at a an arena. Um, it was like a basketball game, and the fans are supposed to get rowdy and throw hot dogs at the actors and stuff, you know, the the the characters and stuff. And I didn't I think I sat in the stands once, but the rest of the time I just hung out by the crew.

8:08 Um, I just kind of hobnobbed with the sound boom guy, I think. I don't remember who it was, but we were just talking and obviously just a kid wanting to be in the business, just talking to him about, you know, how do you do it and where do you start and you know all that stuff. And I remember what was funny about that moment was um for all the extras, we weren't paid.

8:27 We were just just got a stupid lunch, like a hot dog or whatever. And but they did a raffle as well, just to kind of you know keep the morale up a little bit. And I was standing next to the sound guy and we're talking, and they yelled out my ticket number. What so I won a little portable uh Sony television, a watchman, yeah.

8:44 A little watchman, yeah. Excellent. And the sound guy goes, Hey, look, you actually got paid today for being here. I'm like, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So that was just a cool little moment. I was 17, I think. And uh, this business is great. It was, it was it just another little check is you know, I'm definitely gonna do this.

9:00 I don't know how, but I'm gonna. Um yeah, so that that's so Victor Duncan, I worked there for a while, and then um And that became Panavision Dallas. And that became Panavision after I think I left. I left in ninety-two. So you moved out west. I moved in ninety-six. So but from ninety-two to ninety-six, I worked for Cinemark Theaters.

9:20 So, so a lot of people don't realize there's like two halves to my career. There's the lighting console career, and then there's the drafting career or the artist career, the graphic design career. Um, and which is I've been doing that longer than anything. I mean, as a kid, I tell everybody it's like when you're a kid, you um there's a thing flying around.

9:44 I know.

9:45 You got it. There you go. You got it. Don't drink your water. Daniel Sutton, yeah.

9:49 You need chopstick it was what? Sorry.

9:51 Um I tell people when you're a when you're a kid, everybody as a child colors. We color in coloring books and we draw, and you know, we're fascinated with drawing. Some of us stick with it, you know, and some of us find other interests and do it. I was one of those kids that stuck with it. So I've just been drawing my whole life and just found better ways to draw computers eventually came in.

10:15 You must do great diagrams of the set. I do a lot of drafting for the that that is part of my job. So when I you could say at this stage of my career, I I could get called to either be one or the other, or be both. It just, I mean, like I just did Superman 2 and I was only the draftsman. So that's the only thing I and what does that entail?

10:37 Uh uh all the lighting plots, the schematics of the diagrams. I I basically collaborate with the uh art department, uh, gather all the materials I need to bring the set into my software and realize it in 3D and in 2D, and then get notes from the Gaffer and the DP about how do you want to light this. Lay out I draw out all the truss, I draw out all the piping, draw all the you know the lights that we're gonna use, go through numerous drafts and versions of it until it's approved, and then those go out to the rigging crew and they start rigging it.

11:15 So it's it's um process equipment, the lighting, where it goes, how to yeah. Yeah, and the software I use um it it it it dives into both 2D and 3D. So I can I can visualize it in 3D for them. Uh you can, but I don't go that far. But you can. I have also used AR as well. Uh like on Superman, I could take I could take the the set that I have already plotted, lighting and trust and all that.

11:44 I can take that and uh export it out on the iPad, and then the the gaffer can walk around on the set and see an overlay in real time of the lighting rig before it's even there through the iPad. So the iPad basically tracks where it is on the stage, and then the the the um the lighting plot that I've created is superimposed basically on top of that so that they can see it.

12:08 Um so there's tricks like that you can do as well. The software is pretty pop po popular and it's widely used in the business, it's vector works.

12:16 Um but that is a big difference from when you started way back when.

12:21 Yeah. I mean, not way, I don't mean to so how I started, if you want to get into that, is um when I moved out here, uh I was very, very fortunate. It was very busy in '96. So it did not take me long to get my days into 728. And I when I moved originally before getting my days at 728, I moved with basically three options.

12:44 I came out here with the option of either being in the art department, being in visual effects, or being in lighting. Because I kind of had experience in all of them, really. Um my lighting experience came from Victor Duncan and all the time I spent there. My drawing and graphic design really just came from just all my time at Cinemark, which I helped design movie theaters.

13:07 Um and then uh and then visual effects is just something I was always interested in and I knew stuff about, but I didn't necessarily know the software all that well. And there were actually doors that opened for all three when I first came to LA. Um, but lighting kind of took off. Lighting was the one thing that I just kind of it just kind of went quicker than the others.

13:28 Um a lot of that is um is because of Mike Bauman, uh, who is now a cinematographer himself, but he was a best boy when I first met him. And he was one of the first people I met when I first got in the local and gave me some work and I started working with him, and we hit it off and just kind of stuck with him over the years.

13:48 And at the time, was he on Bigger Project, or he too was ascending? He was still ascending. He was um he was a best boy. We were doing when I first met him, it was a little HBO movie, and he was the best boy on it. And he at the same time had been dabbling with gaffing. He'd done some like low budget stuff.

14:08 I think he did a low budget thing with Moro Fiore at the time. Um, that was one of his early first times to gaff. Morrow was kind of coming up as a DP right then as well. And uh he uh and his career started taking off as a gaffer because of people like Morrow and also Maddie. He had a he had Maddie Leibatique was a guy he had gone to school with at AFI.

14:30 And so they were already friends, and Maddie was kind of coming up, you know, doing music videos and getting those first little low budget movies. And so Bauman's relationship with Morro and Maddie was kind of pushing Bauman in in a in a way where he was going to become a gaffer on bigger things eventually, which is what happened.

14:48 And I was just fortunate enough to meet Bauman right around those days. And so I locked in. I mean, you know, you hear it's like it's the business is not just what you know, it's who you know, you know, and it's the timing and the timing. So I was just fortunate. Bauman, um not only because I met Bauman right when he was peaking or starting his career, um, but Bauman is the first person to put me on a lighting console.

15:12 And Bauman is also the one when we first met who knew I had worked with Cinemark and had done graphics, and he was the first one to suggest maybe I try doing some lighting plots. Um, when we were doing the first, this is like '98. I think it was '98. We were doing the he got called to do um, he was a rigging gaffer, believe it or not, for a couple of shows.

15:35 The first time was for the first Stuart Little, which was a very big movie. Yeah, Gamo Navarre. At Sony, yeah. And so uh I think uh Dave Lee was the um the gaffer. And so he had known David, and David asked him, Do you want to rig gaffer this thing? And then Bauman asked, Do you want to be on the rigging crew?

15:52 And I was like, Yeah, sure. He goes, and he was the one that says, Hey, bring your computer to work. Um, I think the show's big enough where we might be able to utilize it to do plots. And this is before I used vector work, so I was just using typical graphic to illustrator stuff like that.

16:07 This is late 90s, yeah. So pop the PC, yeah, always PC, yeah.

16:12 Um, I still use PC, but I use Mac and PC now. But um, so that was so Bauman is the first one to you know say, hey, I bet you could probably do some pretty interesting and detailed lighting plots. And he wasn't wrong. I you know, because when I'm when I'm challenged with stuff like that, it's like I really try to probably go a little above and beyond what is expected.

16:33 And I'm I'm focused on trying to make it as obvious and not need a key, like make things look like they're supposed to look, so that when you look at it, it's it's obvious what these are. Um, so right off the bat, I would that just worked out real well. And then he was also the first person. We were on a movie called um what was that movie called?

16:55 Uh it was a it was a Roland Emmerich produced movie. And but he didn't direct it. I'm trying to remember what it was called. Thirteenth Floor. There's a movie called 13th Floor. This is around the same time, out 98, 97, 98, 99. And um, he was the best boy, Bauman was the best boy. Um, John Tower was the gaffer.

17:17 John and Mike had partnered for many years and early on together, and Mike was his best boy for many projects, and they also owned gear together, and so they were just kind of a team until Bauman started elevating his career as a gaffer. Um, but uh 13th Floor, we were shooting down at Queen Mary, and I was on the crew.

17:40 This was a shooting crew. Bauman wasn't, he was the gaff, uh he was the best boy. And um 13th floor is when uh a lighting console, like it was an expression, showed up one day. Back in those days, you'd never had a full-time programmer or or board operator at that time. It was not this just wasn't part of a feature film to have someone full-time doing that or plotting or controlling it's because everything was you it was mostly just HMIs and incandescent lights and occasionally some dimmers.

18:11 No, but there was a party scene that we were gonna do with the Queen Mary, and so they brought this console in and didn't think about who should run it. And I helped Mike unload it when it arrived one day when we're shooting, and I was like, What's this all about? He says, Well, we gotta do that party scene, and so we're gonna have some dimmers and we're gonna use this thing to the top because he goes, You should you should do it, and I was like, Okay.

18:36 Back then, was it just a who uh a position was like okay, the third guy you you get on to today? Exactly.

18:43 And that went on for several years, actually, early on in those years. Now describe that position, the dimmer board at that time? Um, so I'm basically a setlet lighting technician that is just bumped up to running the console. And so um he just said we had it wasn't a crazy busy day. So he said, just take the console up there, go over the manual, figure it out, plug it in, see if you can get it working.

19:10 And and and I was like, Yeah, sure. So I literally went, hooked it all up, got the manual out, was like this thick. Just started going one page at a time, figuring out what to do, started figuring out. Now I had played it in my years at Victor Duncan, played with some other consoles. So it wasn't like the first time I ever touched a lighting console, but it was the first time I touched an ETC Expression, which at those times, in those days, was the console of choice for anything like that on a feature film.

19:38 Not many. I mean, there were that was the standard.

19:40 Yeah. There it was, it was a standard for typical dimming on a on a movie or maybe TV show. I know there were probably some four camera shows that used them, but not all of them. Uh Strand had a console that was really big. Um, and then the the more complex consoles back then, Whole Hog 2 was the creme de la creme when it came to consoles back then.

20:05 And it was um not something you would see on a movie set very often unless maybe you had rock and roll lighting.

20:12 Ah, okay.

20:13 Um and and in that instance, our local wasn't famous for having people qualified to do that at the time. So sometimes a GAF or DP would hire an outside LD to come in and help deal with any kind of lighting like that, rock and roll lights, moving lights, and stuff like that. Um, I I know like one of the Batman movies, they did that and stuff.

20:35 So I started getting more interest in the different types of consoles out there right around that time. And uh the whole hog two was kind of thrown in my lap one day on another show. Actually, I think it was the Grinch, matter of fact. The Grinch was a show that was big enough where an expression console probably couldn't do the workload.

20:55 Um, David Slocke was the main programmer that they brought on for that. And he and I both weren't real familiar with the Hog 2. So we kind of learned from some other people and figured it out on ourselves and made that work, and we used that on the Grinch, and that's when I first realized in that you know, the expression was just the beginning.

21:15 There was there was consoles out there that could do a lot more.

21:18 And this was early two.

21:20 This would have been ninety nine. Yeah, so end of the nineties. 99 and 2000 was Grinch. Um that must have been a fun project, right? I mean, oh yeah, every day was Jim Carrey, right? Huge stage job. There's like 11 stages at Universal. It was it was all stage, and maybe a little backlot for um like second unit did some backlot stuff for the Hooville set, but yeah, it was all on stage.

21:42 It was massive. That was a cool experience. And Dave brought me on that because Dave got hired originally to do that. He and I were working on something just before that uh together with Bauman and uh or no, it was with someone else. I can't remember who we were working with, but we were working on some other little show, and he got called in by the gaffer to.

22:00 Do that. And once they told him how big it was and what was going to be expected, there was going to be a lot of lighting plots to do and stuff like that. Dave just kind of tapped me on the shoulders and said, Hey, you want to come do this with me? And I was like, Absolutely. So he convinced them that, like, we should probably have two of us.

22:16 So we kind of hopscotched, you know, he'd do a stage, then I would do the next stage, and he'd do a stage. Um, and then I did all the plotting. So um, and that's that's kind of really was like the first spark in my career that really kind of took it to where it is now was the Grinch. I mean, and that also was a high-profile job, a lot of exposure, um, which is always good, you know, when people hear you did the Grinch.

22:40 Oh, wow. You know, it's like they they just ought to make you're probably good enough to do this next movie. And it's just, you know, it's a domino effect. And it just went from one show to the next and meeting more people and learning more stuff and just pushing that boundary, that bar even higher each time I would work.

22:57 But it did start with the Grinch, I'd say Bauman and the Grinch. You know, that's kind of where the career started.

23:02 So you could say Bauman is pretty much one of your mentors. Absolutely.

23:05 Yeah, I mean, and a friend. He's just, you know, he just instrumental in starting my career. Absolutely, 100%. There are other people that are key figures, Jeff Morrell's one. Uh Davis is one. So there's there's some other gaffers that were key into my career. But if it wasn't for Bauman, those guys never would have heard of me.

23:26 So it really does start with Mike Bauman.

23:29 Open the door.

23:30 Yeah.

23:30 And there was another name you mentioned that just sparked my memory. The one. Uh-huh. I worked on the one with Ronlock. Yeah.

23:40 Lightning strikes.

23:41 You remember?

23:42 Oh, yeah, we had a bunch of those.

23:43 Oh, man.

23:44 We had a lot of lighting gags in the head.

23:45 Yeah.

23:46 And I use an expression on that. And that was one of the first movies. Matter of fact, that was the the the next movie after the Grinch that I did. I I mean, I should I should I should clarify. I did the Grinch and then Bauman had a small movie called Um Phone Booth that we did. It was downtown. No lighting console work on that.

24:04 It was all just regular electrician stuff, but it was a very small movie in the sense that it was all shot downtown and we shot it like in 14 days. What? Wow. Yeah. Really? Yes. It was really quick. And it was a really quick shoot because it was all on one street at one phone booth the entire day. Quick and cramped.

24:23 So um it was all planned to be shot, you know, within a week or two. And I think we shot in 12 days or 14 days, but I know it was less than two weeks. Um but that that during during the shoot of that is when Morel called me about doing the one. Uh-huh. So and that's that was kind of like the beginning of my career.

24:45 Yeah. And and that's also those first early years, like I said, you know, it was that was the beginning of gaffers realizing they could bring a console person on full time and have them all the time as a rather than just, hey, you on the crew, go get on the console. That's those early late 90s, early 2000s was when the the gaffers started transitioning to wanting to have someone full-time on a console.

25:17 I mean, though there must have been epic mistakes back in those days if the person is not familiar with the board.

25:24 I don't know if they were epic. I don't think anything we were doing was necessarily epic. Um when we were doing mediocre stuff, there was probably some large-scale stuff, but I think any large-scale stuff was done by someone qualified that could handle it. Um but uh that was definitely the beginning of that.

25:41 Aaron Powell So back then, like you know, we talked about a little before, like you were called a dimmer board operator in those days. Yeah. We learned not to say that.

25:50 Oh, yeah, yeah.

25:51 No, no, but back then it was okay. Why is that today?

25:54 Okay, so all right, so first I'll tell you the difference. All right. So the uh dimmer board operator means um it's a console that just has sliders and it's just someone that's just operating the dimmer board. They're just dimming lights up and dimming lights down. There's no other involvement as far as getting the lights to do things, they're just literally bringing sliders up and bringing sliders down.

26:18 And that's technically the the definition of a board operator, is you're just operating the board. Lighting Poker came around for me. Um, I know it's been around longer than this, but um, lighting poker came around because when I first met Alan Rowe, who's uh a very important person in 728, he's been our president before.

26:38 And when I first met him, he was just coming from live event stuff and became a member of 728 with a lot of knowledge that he carried from his live event stuff into 728. Meaning, we need to we need to change our perspective on what this person is and what they do and why they're called what they're called.

27:00 And lighting programmers was one of those things he really pushed hard on changing because in live event stuff and touring and live television, they're not called Denver board operators. So um, and the reason why they're called lighting programmers is because you're you're you're using a console typically, like a hog or an MA.

27:21 You're using a console that when you turn it on, it's not gonna do anything for you. You have to program it. You have to tell it what to do. You have to tell it what lights you're gonna use, where they're gonna be, what their numbers are gonna be. And then you have to program the console to do the things you want it to do.

27:39 You're not just bringing faders up and down, and that's it. All right. When when you first start a show on an MA or an EOS or a hog or a Champsys, these are all like top-tier consoles. Um, when you first start a show, the sh the show file is empty. It has no information whatsoever. Uh, it's up to the programmer to go in there and build all the information, store it, patch it, and record it in order for it to do what it needs to do.

28:07 And that's the definition of a lighting programmer. That's why we call lighting programmers. We are programming a console. So that's the difference. And that's why we don't really want to be called dimmer board operators anymore. I know it's it's such an old school name that there's just it's hard. You'll probably never get rid of it completely.

28:24 There's still people that use it. Just because when you see someone on the console, you think, oh, dimmer board operator. Yes, he's operating on a reward. But there's a lot more to it.

28:32 Yeah, of course. Yeah. And here's another question, like, you know, since we've all done shows, what's your prep time for something like this to get when you start a show? Obviously, you know, us as camera guys, we get a certain amount, but you as plotting. But every little has a different uh what is your prep time like?

28:49 It varies. Um, and I have to do the best I can with whatever they give me. Um that that's such a that's such a fuzzy gray line because different UPMs and producers are going to understand or not understand the amount of time needed, um, it's really kind of up to the DP and the gaffer to explain to them like how much work's gonna be needed to do what they need to do and give them the proper amount of time.

29:17 Some shows are good at that, and some UPMs are very knowledgeable about this, and some aren't. And so you just have to kind of work with what you get. Yeah. Um on a movie like uh on a like a typical little four or three-month show, I might get two or three weeks of prep. Uh if there's a lot of heavy plotting, they might give me five or six weeks.

29:40 Um but if it's if it's two the good old days, right? Five or six weeks? Or it still happens. It still happens today. Uh-huh.

29:48 Yeah, it still happens today. Now, are you guys are you there as they're I mean the sets are already built, or you're well that's another that's another thing.

29:57 I mean, if I'm coming in, if I'm only gonna be the programmer, I might only get a week um a prep. I might just get enough time to get my gear ready and patched and done. Um but if I'm coming in as the if I'm gonna plot, then I'm definitely gonna be needing to come in earlier than that so that I can get a jump on what it is.

30:16 Most of the time you want to bring in someone that's plotting before the rig goes in, obviously, because the rig is going to be done based on your plots, most likely. There are some instances where I've started a show after the rig's already in. And so my plots basically are just me being told, hey, this is what we did, and I just plot it out so that we have a map of some sort to use.

30:40 But generally, you're gonna come in typically around the same time the gaffer starts. So, whatever amount of prep time they get, it might be a day or a week after they start. Because nowadays there's some gaffers that want that person there before even the rigging gaffer starts, just so they can start getting, because it's gotten to a point now where I'm not just plotting for the rigging crew, I'm plotting for the production's budget.

31:08 They are now using the plots to figure out the budget, right? And so that's that's and that's something that happens very early. So that kind of information is necessary early on, which is a good reason why you would bring someone like me in six or eight weeks. On on the on Avengers, on Endgame and uh Infinity War, I had 15 weeks of prep left prep.

31:29 Yeah, well that's huge. That's a huge one. Yeah, yeah. It's huge. 15 weeks of prep.

31:34 Now, uh on those on those projects, usually you have second units as well.

31:39 So do you provide the second unit uh lighting programmer uh the information for the set for sometimes they already kind of have an idea. Sometimes uh second unit, if depending on how big of a unit it's gonna be, you know, they'll they'll hire obviously their own UPM, their own line producer, and then obviously their own DP, their own gaffer.

32:03 It's like a second movie. And that's like another crew, and that gaffer could possibly have someone in mind that they want to use already, and they just run it by me. Um, or they might come to me with you know, looking for recommendations. Uh, or maybe they have someone they usually use, but they're not available.

32:20 And so who else can you recommend?

32:22unknown Yeah.

32:22 But your notes are critical to that unit. Uh yeah. I mean, uh I've done second unit as well. I've done some shows where I've been the second unit guy, and it's actually kind of cool because uh most of all the um shows have already been written. The the main unit programmer has already recorded everything, and you're more of a person that just kind of finds whatever they shot.

32:47 Like let's say they sh the first unit shoots a scene 103 and they shoot 103 and they have all this lighting, 103, Apple, Baker, Charlie, and so they have all these cues for all these different lighting setups stored. Um, and then main unit goes on to do something else. Second unit comes in to shoot some stuff for that.

33:05 Well, I'll just take copies of those cues and play them so that I can bring up the exact look that they had when the first unit was there, so it's the same. I'll use copies of it though, because there are going to be some changes, and so the second unit gaffers might change the lighting a little bit to fit what they're doing, but I the base of it is started off what the first unit person did.

33:26 So that's always a a nice little thing for the second unit programmer is to not have to rely on a half and to build everything from scratch. All I have to do is just find what they did when first unit was there and bring it up, and then we can make changes. So do you prefer first unit over second unit?

33:43 Or I don't working. I prefer working.

33:46 Available, yeah. So do I. Yeah. I don't know.

33:50 Second unit has its advantages. It used to be. Yeah, you get to do the fun stuff.

34:08unknown Yeah.

34:08 You know, blow up.

34:09 Less pressure.

34:11 So here's a here's a tech question for you. I don't know how much of a tech question it is, but um so uh uh if you can let us know now since everything has transitioned into a lot of tech. Obviously computers, the consoles, the iPads, all that stuff. When do you think that really ended it ended uh started taking over in your world?

34:38 What part? Pretty much being able to walk around with an iPad and have everything dialed in. Come kind of almost I don't even want to say the word uh it Say it. No. Uh but you know, but not necessarily automated, but like freedom. More freedom, yes.

34:55 Okay, so uh it's that's a very interesting question. I have never been asked that actually. Yeah. Um I think um I think there's uh there's pros and cons to the portable wireless system, let's call it. Because it's not always just an iPad. You can use a tablet PC. Um and I remember dabbling with that first on.

35:17 You know, when I first started using Hog, um Hog uh it was during the Hog 3 days. I first used a Hog 2, and then Hog 3 came around and I started using Hog 3. And I remember when I was working on one of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, um, we had we were using a Hog 3 for the main rig, which was a huge rig and a hangar uh for two pirate ships and stuff.

35:39 And we had tons of demmers. We had like, I don't know, 5,000 demmers or something like that. It was it was a huge rig. And we're using a hog three, and I remember this is also early on in my consulting days with high-end um and being a beta tester for them as well. And during those years um leading up to pirates, uh, I think it was part part two or three, I can't remember, at World's End, whatever one that is.

36:03 It was three. It was three. So during those years, um Hog Three was going through some development phases where the console software and the PC software weren't on the same plane. They could not communicate with each other yet. But the discussion about that happening was was already out there. And I knew there was they were getting close to a point where the ability to network a PC with an actual console was just around the corner, which was a big step for them at that time.

36:39 Uh I don't remember what years, 2002, 2002. So that's that's right. It was right around that time. And so I was looking forward to this because I knew that if once they got that to work, then the ability to probably try and do that wirelessly through Wi-Fi was something I was gonna, you know, test. And so the day that that that that new build of that software dropped was we were testing or pre-lighting or something.

37:08 And I got all excited because I saw that it dropped and I downloaded it and I had a laptop that I put it on. And I remember Rafi Sanchez's gaffer, and he was there, and he was like, What are you all excited about? I was like, I think I think I'm gonna be able to do something I've been looking forward to doing for a while, and we'll finally be able to do it.

37:24 He's like, Well, what is it? I go, Well, hold on, let me get let me see if I'm right. And so uh I did it and I and I and I got it loaded and I was able to hook up a little Wi-Fi router. I don't remember what brand it was 20-something years ago, but uh I opened the door out to see the stage because we were in a room and I had my laptop and everybody gathered around me.

37:43 Rafi was right here, right there, and we were looking out there, and I was like turning lights off and on and dimming them. They're like, oh. And so that's when we searched first started realizing like you could do some wireless stuff. Now, here's the thing in those days, those early experimental days of doing that, there was nothing, there's nothing called Teradex yet.

38:02 Oh, yeah, that's what you guys do. We were shooting film and video wasn't the the Wi-Fi band with was you know available and was probably that small, hard hardly used. And so you weren't killing the camera department just yet. So my next step was on Iron Man one. I actually purchased some tablet PCs, some uh what they're called convertibles, where the screen goes up and then you can flip it and lay it down and it becomes a tablet.

38:28 Sorry. Um and uh so I started doing a little bit more with this, you know, having basically having a uh a host and client type thing uh connection via Wi-Fi. Um no iPad app yet. Yeah, um obviously, but other other consoles were starting to experiment with this. MA came out with an app or their iPad. Hog never really did that.

38:53 They used OSC, which is a um was it sound control? Something OSC is something I can't remember. The O. Yeah. I don't remember. It's a third-party app that you that is used a lot in music. Um it and it's basically allows you to create an interface on something like an iPad or a phone that can enter interface with with the console and control the console in certain ways.

39:18 So you can use an iPad app for Hog, but it's it's via OSC.

39:23 Do you find this easier for your job to be mobile and walk around with the gaffer and you guys talk right there?

39:30 Uh I my answer to this is probably gonna be different than if you ask 10 other people. Yeah. But I'll tell you uh uh a story related to that question is when I got called to do Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Um, now I I had my little tablet PCs and I had used them like on Iron Man and some other shows over the years sparingly.

39:52 I wasn't like always on set with them. I think the longest amount of time I ever spent on set with my tablet PC was when I did uh um uh Land of the Lost with John Buckley and Dion B. Um, and I made them work well then. Once again, this is the years where Teredeck the the Wi-Fi would stay stable most of the time, and uh it just worked really well.

40:16 And so we did it. Now I found the advantage to having that ability on set was was nice, but you're taking a console. Understand now, a lighting console has faders and buttons and encoder knobs, and the control interface is set up for you to do your job quickly, right? To do things like build an effect, build it a queue, change the timing of this, all this stuff is is designed to do quickly.

40:46 You're taking all of that and condensing it down into this little tiny screen and it slows you down. So, yes, it is it is nice to be able to be right by the DP's side when they ask for this or this and this. And yes, it's it's gotten better over the years. But the fact is I'm faster on the console. Okay, so I'm much faster on the console than I would be on any kind of tablet or and that's what I told uh on Guardians 2.

41:15 I was told that the DP was from uh from England, and he was he was sort of accustomed to having the the programmer near him so he could just ask for that. And I'll go, well, let me go talk to him. So I went and talked to him and I told him exactly that. I said, absolutely I can do that. And and and there will be times where I definitely should, but I'll tell you, I'm gonna be faster on the console.

41:36 You're gonna you're gonna ask for this, this, and this, and this, and this. It's gonna take me probably twice as long to do it on a tablet than if you just tell me on the radio, I'll do it instantly. So the question is, do you want it right away or do you want it convenient, like right by you? And they they gave in.

41:54 They said, Yeah, just be at the console. There will be times where we need you out there maybe to run a queue uh just so I can visually see when I need to hit play. Um, so there were moments where I definitely did that. There were also moments when I visually need to see something, like if I'm focusing lights a certain way or trying to adjust the effect, then being there is is helpful just so I can see it in real time.

42:17 But then once I get it, I can go back to my desk and and do that. Now, the other thing about me is another reason why I like to be at the desk, is because when we're shooting and we're not and I'm not doing anything, I can turn to my right and be on my computer and start working on other upcoming sets, plotting them, prepping them, programming them.

42:40 I can I can prep other things that are coming up while we're just tinkering with a you know, an over-the-shoulder shot of them talking.

42:48 Yeah.

42:49 Right. So I utilize my time more efficiently that way. If I'm on set, I'm not gonna get anything done when they're shooting. I'm just gonna sit there like everybody else.

42:59 What was your hardest uh job to program for show, movie?

43:04 I mean, they all had their challenges. Yeah. Uh Iron Man 2 had a lot of cool challenges, uh just heavy programming. Guardians 2 was a lot of heavy programming as well, just sheer numbers, um just a large amount of stuff.

43:20 So in your in your I mean your work, you're working with A-listers top top down, but I've been on jobs where the younger, maybe inexperienced director or DP, more DP, they just want it now. They tell you something and they want it now. And it takes time, like as you said, to process it.

43:41 And you guys are asking great questions.

43:44 I'm well, I mean uh We're veterans too. You know, we've been beat up.

43:48 These are these are questions that I've answered before, but not many people think to ask. Um That is a good question. And this is what I have to say about that. The amount of time spent to do Something is important. Time is money in the business, and the faster you can do something, the better. So when I'm uh when I'm asked, you know, Maddie the TV is a good example of this.

44:13 I've worked with Maddie on many shows, and sometimes I'm asked to come to set Maddie wants to talk to you about what it is he wants to do, what he wants the lights to do. Like there's a whole pattern or sequence of things that need to happen. So in instance like that, there's always more than one way of doing something on a console, especially a good qualified console like a hog or MA.

44:33 There's a lot of different ways to achieve what they want to achieve. Um, so I in in moments like that, I'll tell the DP or the Gaffer, I'll go, okay, I I totally get what you want to do, not a problem. Um here's here's my question. I go, do you want me to do it exactly the way you're talking about? Right?

44:52 Or do you want me to do it another way that'll still achieve what you want, but you'll be able to make changes quickly, right? Yeah, because if you want to make changes fast, this is the way we should do it. And they're like, do it that way. Always 100%. They're always like, do the one that I can make changes quickly.

45:07 And so that helps narrow down the way I need to do something, right? So then in my mind, I figure, okay, well, I'm not gonna do it that way because that's gonna take forever. I'm not gonna build one queue at a time, right? And then all of a sudden they say they want to change something. I gotta go, I gotta go change seven different cues and over that.

45:23 I'm gonna do something that tracks through a certain way or allows me to make changes quickly. Even sometimes while they're shooting, I can make changes like speed control or dynamic types of steps that happen between this cue and that, or whatever the case may be. Um, I find the way that allows me to adjust things on the fly or at least quick enough where they don't have to wait, because I know that's the most important thing.

45:53 I still have to give them the results that they are looking for. And sometimes they're a little fuzzy on that too. Sometimes they're kind of like, this is kind of what we want to show me what you can do, and I'll I'll build something, I'll show it to them, and then we'll tweak it from there. They'll be like, okay, good, but that color's not quite right, or maybe the speed needs to be a little faster.

46:13 So these are the things that I'm always the notes I'm getting that I'm always having to adjust. So in my mind, I'm always gonna do something in a way that allows me to do those adjustments quickly. Yeah, you gotta protect yourself. So speed, speed is is important. Being able to do something fast, they don't like waiting.

46:30 They don't, they just don't like waiting. And and sometimes they don't like waiting so much that if you tell them, like, like how long is this gonna take? If you tell them, oh my god, I'm gonna need like 15 minutes, they're like, okay, then forget it. We're just gonna shoot.

46:40 Yeah.

46:41 I get that a lot too. So there are moments, uh, you know, Yo Williams, who did the Hunger Games movies. Um, I remember uh uh Walt Bithel was the gaffer, and I remember there was a really particular sequence of events that had to happen in one scene, and they told me, and and it really it that that request only really had one way of doing it.

47:06 And so I told him, like, okay, well, look, I'm gonna have to make this this way. And they're like, Okay, how long do you think? I go, uh, maybe five, five or ten minutes. And he goes, Let me tell yo. And he came back and he goes, Yo said, if you say it takes five to ten minutes, then you're getting five to ten minutes.

47:22 He goes, Because he knows that you can usually do something quick, but if you say you really need 10, he believes you. And so I'll, you know, he'll give me so I've I've impressed him enough to the point where I'm allowed to have that moment when I need it. So that's that's another little tidbit. Yeah, that's that's important.

47:42 Trust, you know. It is, it is. But they wouldn't let me do that all the time. Most of the time they want something done quickly.

47:48 Now, um would you travel around the world back then? Were they were they taking you everywhere as this position or or the Well now you're getting now you're getting into the change of the business.

47:59 Let's do it. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh no. Uh back then all the work was for me was in LA. That's right. And and also it all the work was on stage. Location work wasn't really a thing for programmers back in those days. Um, I guess that that became a thing more when LED kind of came around. And all of a sudden now the truck package that travels with the crew everywhere they go needs a programmer because you can change the color and all that stuff, and it's wireless.

48:30 And so all of a sudden the the need to have a programmer all the time, even on location, became I don't know how many years ago that happened, maybe 10, 15 years ago. It started kind of evolving into that. But earlier than that, um, it wasn't, it was just any big stage job. I was in LA doing stage work.

48:48 Uh I hardly ever went out of town. That's right. It was booming back then.

48:52 Yeah, plenty of work in LA.

48:54 And then the work started going out of town. And then I think the first time I went out of town was uh right around the first Thor uh went to half that movie was in New Mexico. Uh and then right after that, Cowboys and Aliens, and then just kind of it started happening. That's right. It started happening right around the same time, actually.

49:16 Cowboys and Aliens. It was a tough job. And then I started then I went to Boston for a movie, then I went to North Carolina for a movie, and then Atlanta started happening, and then Atlanta started becoming a thing almost every year. Uh so you were hot, were you working all the time in Atlanta when things kind of shifted, or were you still Well, those those were the years where like Marvel was out there for a lot, and I just started becoming the I mean the Marvel thing is interesting too because Obama did Iron Man One and Iron Man 2.

49:44 Nobody when we thought when we were shooting Iron Man One and three, we never thought no one ever imagined that it was gonna turn into this Marvel freight train of movies. Um we were just it's just another movie, just like any other. But because I did Iron Man 2 and Iron Man 1 before that, all of a sudden it's like when Thor came around, it's like, well, get Barnes.

50:03 He did let's get Barnes, he did the last two Marvel things. Well, let's get him down that, right? So I did Thor. And then the next thing you know, Morel gets Cap America 2, and he's like, let's bring you on Cap America 2. And and I just started knowing the right people at the right time that were it's like so it wasn't always the same gaffer.

50:22 Bauman did those first two. Uh Corey Garak did Thor, Morel did Cap 2, and then it was just became the Lynn Levine did Ant-Man, and it was just, you know, it was all these gaffers that I happen to know that were getting called for all these Marvel films. And I just kept getting called for more and more and more.

50:38 And next thing you know, I've got this stack of I Marvel films I've done, and everybody thinks that Marvel's calling me for all these movies. I'm like, I don't know, Marvel doesn't call me. I get just got lucky enough to know the right gaffer.

50:50 So here's a question. Yeah. Um out of all your jobs, do you what what do you think? You think you get hired by the DP or the gaffer more? What's the gaffer? The gaffer.

51:01 The DP sometimes will call me, but it's not that's the gaffer using it.

51:09 And um there was something else too, just because we were talking, you know, like and you brought up beta, like when you were talking about that that uh Pirates of the Caribbean, you know, that you were on, and you guys were like, whoa, like it was uh in my mind it was like when man discovered fire. I don't know if that's you know, but it it is, at least for you know, people of my generation, because like being able to have that little knowing that spark was right there in the beginning, that's huge, you know, just how that changed, you know.

51:39 My other my other half of the question was is like how you know you were talking about how everything changed with lighting, and like for instance, I guess the company I wanted was Aperture and all these different lights, you know, how how everything changed towards that. Uh huh. And what do you think about that change and how do you think it's gonna evolve in the world?

52:01 Well, it certainly helped my career. Yeah. Um but uh yeah, I you know, in when I first started those early years, you know, it was all dimmers and incandescent HMIs, and so there was probably a handful of manufacturers, you know, mole, airy, the Systi, I don't know, Silver Bullet, whatever, you know, there's just you know it's not a lot.

52:24 Um now there's you can't even count them all. It's just and when LED boomed, everybody was making stuff in their garage, and some of those garage companies turned into major companies, and always trying to outdo the other person when it came to LED, asking people like me and other gaffers and people in the business, like what else do you guys need?

52:46 How can we make it better? Um, you know, and lights when LED boom happened, uh all these lights now are computers. I mean, every every LED light practically is a computer, hooked to a network, right? Hooked to a network, um, with its, you know, with its microprocessor and its IP ability and uh networking interface.

53:06 And yeah, it's it's so uh communication between lights and consoles were important, uh, whether it's wireless or wired, um, it just became an important part of the the business and and not only made the console programmer's job more important, but now it's sort of evolved into its own department, a little sub-department you could call it.

53:28 I mean, the lighting department is made up of multiple sub-departments now, and lighting control is one of them. You have to be tech now. Yeah, there's techs, it's not just plug-in. It's helpful for your tech to have some sort of IP knowledge, is IT or IT knowledge. Um you uh a crew that I work with a lot.

53:48 Um I'll mention their names, like Adam Harrison's a rigging gaffer, and um Derek Page is a tech that I've used on many, many shows uh lately, still right now, still using them. Um and uh we use a managed network. Adam owns a managed network, and we use a managed network. Not everybody uses a managed network, some of them use unmanaged networks.

54:12 A lot of people use unmanaged networks, but the managed network basically it just allows you to see all the devices on the network from one spot and adjust any conflicts or things that you need to change. Uh um, because everything has its IP address, and so now you can see, and you can basically say, you know, I want this these ports to be this, and I want these ports to be this, and so forth.

54:36 Unmanaged, you still have that ability, but you got to do it at the actual device. So that's the difference.

54:44 Yeah, it's always interesting the newer part of your equipment, your guys' equipment, uh, because we never really would get messed up in the camera department. Everything would be fine, and next thing you know, with the Teradex or the wireless video coming out, you would get ready to go, they say rolling, and then you camera would go out because not to blame you guys, but there's more people now on the wireless.

55:08 Yes, yeah, there is so being that you're high up with all the companies, maybe you guys maybe you could help the camera department out by creating a different uh something. So I don't really have you know because remember, it used to be the sound guys that had the thing that would screw up our image, and then we kind of they did their thing, and then next thing you know, yeah, you guys would plug your network in right next to our transmitter, and then you're like, no, we we were here first.

55:35 I can uh I can honestly tell you right now that the the networking side of things has gotten so big and so complex at times, especially the wireless as well. I don't take any part in that, honestly. Nobody comes to me with my request or anything like that. I go, if you think we can do it wirelessly and it works, fine.

55:54 I just want it to work. It's as a console programmer, I just my focus is gonna be on what the console does and then what and when then what if I'm plotting, what I'm doing plotting wise. As far as the infrastructure, I leave it up to those guys to figure out because usually they have all the equipment already and they're already knowledge as to making it work.

56:11 And I'm not gonna be too particular about what they use, and I just as long as it works, um, that's that's my only concern. And so they'll they'll deal with all those little nuances. Yeah. What's what's the most stressful part of your job? Um probably like most people, long days. I don't know, just not getting any rest or short turnarounds.

56:36 I mean, but the actual uh the actual day-to-day stuff that I'm doing, uh I I guess I don't stress too much. If um if ever I do stress about anything, it might be just that they're not giving me enough time to do something.

56:53 Um just like the all the all the other departments, yeah. It works. Stressed.

56:57 Yeah. I you know, I like to get I like to get a little heads up about things. If I can if I can get any kind of early information uh of what they're trying to do or what they think they want to do, or like that, then I can already start in my mind figuring out how I'm gonna do it. But when they don't know what they're gonna do, which we've dealt with that lots of times, um, and then all of a sudden they're ready to roll and they're like, okay, this is what we need.

57:23 And I'm like, well, that would have been good to know like 10 minutes ago. Um, but uh that's really maybe the only time I stress that a little bit. Um but look, the show goes on, everybody knows nothing's gonna stop the movie from getting made. It's gonna happen. Whether you're able to do the lighting queue or not, it's there's they're gonna either shelve it or change it or do whatever if it can't happen.

57:47 But obviously they want to get what they're visually looking for. Um, but sometimes it you know, because of time restraints or something, you you just can't you can't achieve it, and they just just gotta shoot it, just go.

58:00 Are there some lighting effects that are harder than others? I remember back way back before LED, like trying to replicate fire was always kind of challenging, but each kind of gaffer had their own little technique how to do the flame effects, or subways, or is it polite? I mean, is there some TV? We on our show we had TV guys was always you know, always kind of funny watching that happen.

58:26 The TV I don't think any of that's too challenging. Uh organic stuff's great, but fire is great because it's organic. It's like, you know, you just you just want to make sure there's no pattern visually, you know, as long as there's no nobody sees any kind of pattern in the effect, then you're good to go and you can adjust it however you want.

58:44 Um, but uh I mean the challenging stuff is when there's specific timing of things that need to happen at a certain point. Uh gunfire. We want to we want to synchronize the gunfire with the bezel or something. You know, there's like all these little tricks that we have to try and figure out sometimes.

59:01 And usually that's wireless.

59:03 You have a video image or is it just audio cues?

59:06 No, no, I have video. I always try to have video. Um as much as possible. You you gotta get video. And you usually don't want it to be wireless, you want it to be wired so that you don't have any latency because a lot of the cues we do have to trigger right at the moment that they need to. Right. So any kind of latency can throw it off a little bit.

59:26 Yeah, that used to be the thing in the 70s and 80s on the TV shows where they turn on the light switch, and like a second later the lights would turn on and well here's some as a you as a camera utility, I always you remember you know having to wire the monitors for the director and everybody else, and then there was always a line going to the console.

59:44 Yeah. And I remember that was the one line where you know, me, me and whoever it was at the time, we'd always talk and be like, hey, just keep my line. Right. You know, there, because you guys gotta see everything just as we do. Yeah. Like you're saying. Um my other question to you is what do you think your favorite job?

1:00:00 Where like you m might have had more creative, you know, input. Input on stuff. Like, what do you think your favorite job has been through?

1:00:09 I mean, most of those Marvel films, I get a little bit of creativity involved.

1:00:13 Um is there one job that was like fantastic, or they're all just good.

1:00:19 They're all I mean.

1:00:20 I mean, you've come a long way from from Dallas and here you are on some of the biggest Hollywood movies of all time.

1:00:26 I can't say for sure if if I like one more experience you know over another. I mean, Guardian Sioux was great, Iron Man 2 was a great experience, but for other reasons too, like the crew was great and the director was great, or just the you know, the atmosphere. The atmosphere was good and things you were doing were really cool and epic and big and stuff.

1:00:47 I mean, I've always said though that um uh Grinch, Lemony Snicket, and uh and probably Iron Man 2 uh were probably key moments in my career that just kind of elevated it that much more, just because the exposure and then some of the things we were doing were kind of groundbreaking and cool to cool to talk about.

1:01:11 So and you don't really realize it at the time. Pirates was another good one too. You don't really really I mean you're there and you're like, holy crap, this is like one of the biggest rigs I've ever seen, or you know, it's just like this is pretty cool. But you're so focused on just doing your job, you don't really think about it until later.

1:01:26 Yeah, true. Sometimes years later, you're like, wow, I can't believe we really did that. That's amazing.

1:01:30 Yeah, it was funny because when we started Iron Man, I hadn't I was not a big comic person. I knew the basics. I had never heard of Iron Man. No, I didn't either.

1:01:38 And really, you know, yeah. No, I was on Pirates when uh Terminal or Pirates when I got called uh from Bauman to do Iron Man 1, and I was like, what the hell is Iron Man? Exactly.

1:01:50 Yeah, oh like no idea. Yeah, it was Jugante, yeah, yeah. Um oh have you ever said no to a job?

1:01:58 Uh only because I maybe I get offered a few at a time and I have to choose between some. I got offered uh uh Dream Girls and one of the Santa Claus movies at the exact same time. And I was actually working on Poseidon at that time, and uh I went to the producer who I'd chatted with and was rather friendly.

1:02:20 I don't remember his name. And I said, Hey, I just pick your brain. He goes, Yeah, sure. He goes, I guess this guy offered one of the Santa Claus movies. It was a really big movie. It was like Santa Claus two or three, I can't remember. He's like, Yeah, he's like, but I also got offered Dream Girls. He goes, You should do Dream Girls.

1:02:34 And I was like, Okay. He goes, Yeah. He goes, Who cares about the Santa Claus movies? You should do dream girls. He goes, because he knew, you know, what it what it was gonna be, and he had it uh you know, through the grapevine, he'd heard who was involved and who was in it, and just a cool experience.

1:02:48 And he was right, it was a great experience.

1:02:49 So that was here in L. Uh-huh. Yeah.

1:02:52 Oh yeah.

1:02:54 Yeah, that was uh yeah, we hadn't we knew a lot of people on that. That was a big time. That was a big that was a big Jimmy Jensen, I think it was kind of number one. Number one, yeah, that's right. We'll get him on eventually. Yeah, yeah. Well somebody, but um Dion B. Nice. Um what I mean you I one question we usually ask is all the changes, tech questions, but you kind of answered that as as we've been going on.

1:03:20 So where do you think AI comes into the business?

1:03:24 It's already here. Um VectorWorks is already using it. So there's um not not in the way that they probably eventually will, but it's it's it's a growing and evolving process. But they did implement it a couple versions ago where you could you could take your renderings, your 3D renderings, and you could enhance them with AI.

1:03:46 Um uh it also gives you the ability to make some texture maps and stuff like that. It's just it's a cool little feature, and I think they're going to expand the ability of AI within the software over the years. Um, and then the console companies are already using AI as well, mostly just to help escalate the amount of time it takes to implement new features and changes to the software.

1:04:11 Um, you know, there's only so much that your human engineers can do at one time, and sometimes it takes them months or weeks or even years to achieve something, but AI can do it in a matter of minutes. Yeah. So it's just helps them. It's right now it's at a point where um your human engineers are involved in some of the heavier load stuff, the more involved, like particular stuff, and then some of the low-hanging fruit changes are being thrown at AI because it can just knock it out quickly.

1:04:43 But it's definitely there. And then as far as AI actually being implemented into the console, I mean it's this discussions that they've had about how they could do it and where it would benefit the programmer and all that kind of stuff. So it's it's in discussion, it's happening. Yeah.

1:04:58 Here's another question for you. Um what would you tell a young person coming up in these times about the business if they wanted to in the future? I get that job.

1:05:09 From time to time, my Instagram has a few followers, and so I get some people from even from other countries that will message me about how they can get into this. You know, it's very interesting about my position is when I started it, like I said, it wasn't a full-time position. It was just something they just threw, you know, occasionally and and and and evolved into now it's a career now.

1:05:31 Um, but um, because of that, I don't think it even still today is something that's like taught in universities or anything. It's not a position like a camera assistant would be, or a gaffer, or even a key grip or somebody. It's the lighting program is sort of the it's sort of the kind of position that they don't really talk about in in film schools.

1:05:52 Um, it's not something that's discussed much. Uh I think. I I don't know. I I have a kid that's in college now, he's getting his master's but he's he's getting in writing um but he got his degree in film and I don't I'm pretty sure he they didn't talk about that particular aspect but I do get I do get questions from usually high school or college people that find my Instagram and ask me questions about getting in the business and I my answers are always kind of the same it's like right now it's very tough um as as much as I love LA and and and love working here I go I know that it's easier to get into the business in places like Atlanta where it's a right to work state so I tell them I go just

1:06:36 find a place that you can get your feet wet and get your foot in the door it's gonna be tough to do in LA especially these days so I just kind of defer them to other places. I also tell them you know some of the things that I did when I first started it's like you know if you want to be a console programmer um most uh most lamp docs or lighting companies that have consoles will allow you to come to their facility and play around on their console.

1:07:09 So they'll even you know PRG does this they're they're very welcome to it because um they want you to use the consoles they have so that you'll use their consoles. Even the manufacturers uh offer classes and training and so there's there's places you can go to get to learn and and get your hands on the desk.

1:07:28 There's even uh most most of those companies even offer the software free online to download so you can at least familiarize yourself with the software of a console for nothing just by having it on your computer and just tinkering around with it. So getting getting the knowledge of the console and the knowledge of the hardware is not too difficult to do right now.

1:07:52 But um and it never really has been but the the hard part is just getting your name out there and getting someone to give you that that first chance uh and then hopefully continue that. That's just all about networking and meeting the right people. Basics do what we had to do 30 years. You just want to be in the right place at the right time uh make phone calls show up on set you know just be there and just tell them you're interested and you know what is it show up shut up and I forgot the I forgot the other one right now.

1:08:25 We'll go with the first two show up and shut up. Yeah it's it's not easy. Right now it's very hard. But uh now in your heyday were you doing like two movies a year three moves I mean movies back then were longer so were you were job after job after job maybe a couple of them a year yeah cut to now it's is it the same for you or a little bit.

1:08:46 Uh huh yeah it's a little bit of a gap between sometimes it just kind of it's weird. I mean the business is kind of like this right now it's like you have a little peak moment where you're working all the time and then you you're down for a month or two or three and so you gotta find something to do between exactly you gotta kinda you kinda have to multi you got to be versatile because you were mentioning in the lobby that you also consult.

1:09:30 And then I've been a consultant for high-end and ETC for the hog for almost as long well actually 20 years. And um and then high-end even brings me in to Austin to test hardware and software and give them my input on things that need to change or be added or so that's just a little filler job that I've sort of acquired just by having a relationship with them over the years.

1:09:59 Which I do not dislike it's it's a nice little filler job. So yeah. That's great.

1:10:04 It seems like yeah here in Hollywood we have to do a little bit more extra side hustles. Yeah. Kind of a bummer but it's it's great. But um now since we're starting to wind down I think we got our two questions or two final questions which we kind of always hit it. We always say two final but then we always ask yeah so maybe not final but we got two questions.

1:10:26 Two questions go. What's your favorite word onset? Favorite word? Yeah or phrase or what's the one thing that you hear that you know during the day where you're like okay yes I mean well now that I'm 54 probably rap.

1:10:42 Yeah yeah that's a rap it's probably I mean who doesn't like that you know yeah um of course that does mean obviously you're off the clock now too so you're not making any money but um I think uh the opposite of that would be a good phrase would be like hey you're booked you know okay perfect knowing that you got the job is always a good thing to hear not necessarily you hear somebody here on set but it is part of the show.

1:11:08 Yeah no I think that might be my favorite one I think it's all of our favorite ones.

1:11:12 Booked you booked yeah well I'll get an email or hey here's your start date yeah right those those are those are always good things to hear. And the opposite what's the least favorite moving on moving on turning around turning around okay New Deal. Yeah you don't like that that's usually progress like we can I don't like it at the 14th hour or the 12th hour.

1:11:37 Yeah yeah you know right around then you're wanting to hear the other word but uh well no the other word is the coffee truck has arrived lunch is always a good one oh lunch is the best of life yeah don't mind hearing lunch uh things I don't like hearing I don't know uh that that's yeah there's not a lot of negative stuff I don't like hearing if someone got hurt no yeah of course or you know anything like that or if someone on those big movies you're working on that happens it does and that's never a fun moment so you don't like hearing about anything like that yeah sorry to be a Debbie Downer.

1:12:11 No no no we'll we'll bring it back up before we go um uh let's see here from um I mean the movies are I mean there's really it's impressive Black Panther that's crazy uh F1 for me because I I like that movie love that movie real quick real quick yeah we talked about COVID what was that like for you so I was working on the prom uh with Maddie Lantique with Maddie we work on the prom as a Netflix movie if you haven't seen it's a musical that's another thing as I really like working music there's so when it comes to the types of movies I like to I don't know if you you didn't ask this but I'm gonna tell you um as a programmer I love uh horror films uh musicals and then like supernatural like uh sci-fi

1:12:56 type things so you're gonna do the most lighting gags on those kinds of movies um uh musicals I've done a few and that's always fun just because you feel like you're being a little bit more part of the creative process with that because the lighting is part of the performance so that's always a very fun thing to do.

1:13:17 Horror films are just fun just because it's gags and flickers and stuff like that and it's always kind of cool to be part of that.

1:13:23 That's the difference from uh from a in departments.

1:13:26 Yeah oh I I love horror movies so regardless I just know it's gonna be a lot of nice as a camera assistant I regardless I've only done a couple but uh what was your original question though?

1:13:38 Um we'll have to go back a little bit of COVID oh yeah so it was the prom uh with Maddie and uh matter of fact we were on our last week of the show when the world shut down uh I think it was on a Thursday and we were supposed to rap Saturday or Saturday I think we were going to shoot Saturday and let that be our last day rather than Monday they just figured we only had two more days so let's just shoot it out on Friday and Saturday and be done and we can start rapping the following week.

1:14:04 Well Thursday they said don't come to work stopped yeah they said don't come to work uh and and then as the day progressed as everyone knew and watched the news is like the world shut down and things got worse and they they said we're we're gonna go ahead and call it a wrap and we're not gonna shoot those last two days we might be able to pick them up in a in an additional photography later but obviously no one had answers as to when that would be at that time.

1:14:30 So at at that particular moment it was a wrap and they said we're gonna have a crew a small crew come in and wrap all the gear out just a certain selection of people and then we're gonna send your gear back up to you. So I I was told to stay home and my gear would be coming back to me and it did and I just loaded it in the in the house and and it's kind of headed in there and until eventually we did obviously the the the IA worked out a plan uh a COVID plan for people to return to work and we were part of that.

1:15:00 So we able to came back we came back months later uh but we came back to shoot another week of shooting but uh that's that's where I was for that yeah one last question I'm sorry one last question uh did you ever work with anybody who worked on ET in in your early days?

1:15:16 Well Steven well oh well that's true but could you talk to him like that? Could you be like hey Steven how'd you do that you know okay so yeah that's a good question.

1:15:25 Uh I was actually I met Steven on a non-Steven movie it wasn't uh it wasn't his movie I was working on the Grench matter of fact when we work on the Grench we were at Universal and I was in the gold room there on stage 28 this is the cave set Grinch's cave layer or whatever and uh I stepped outside the door and I saw Steven was at Video Village all by himself just sitting there waiting on Ron.

1:15:48 Well Ron Howard and Jim and everybody were out on the floor of the set blocking out a scene with the entire crew and I saw Steven just sitting there he just drove by on his way home decided to stop and say hello to Ron and and visit and so I saw him and I I said little I would never go up to him on his own job and bother him while he's working but he was a visitor and he didn't have any entourage or security or any assistance or it was just him being Ron's friend just dropping by and he was all alone.

1:16:17 So I just walked over to a chat with him a chat with him like 15 minutes. Um awesome and we had a good we had a good conversation full circle.

1:16:25 Yeah well P this is when we know we're we're we have an A-lister here on staff of course when the A-lister says Steven Steven by his first name oh it's just that's fantastic we already talked about a little bit but I mean years later I did work with him on terminal so I did get to actually work with him a little bit so that was cool.

1:16:42 Scott Barnes thank you for coming on the prelim podcast and thank you very much to ProCam for sponsoring this episode and we look forward to more episodes soon. So please like and subscribe and uh I guess next time we see you hopefully we see you on the set.

1:16:57 Maybe it's been a while Scott that'd be great hey guys today's episode has been sponsored by our friends at ProCam specialty gear by Chapman Leonard creating moments new movements