Casey HATES this graph

0:00 Yum Earth if you're out there sponsor us for eating these trash. I got your face. You guys want to see what my new snack addiction is This is what we have on Spotify is TJ and trash talking about snacks. True. True Bro, this one I have does I ordered them. All right. All right. Let me before we start. This is my new snack addiction So in the back corner I have this box of these things called pop corners. Yeah, they're so good There's this flavor called spicy queso. I ordered a box I ordered it in bulk of just that flavor and they came in this morning, and I'm just gonna destroy the whole box today It's good every time every time so good spicy queso pop corners. Whatever amazing Yeah Welcome to the stand up today. We have two very special topics and as always we have teased TV

0:55 We have KC meratory, and we have trashed off all of them legendary developers from the legendary Twitter community Here to talk about the hottest and greatest parts that are happening right now in tech today Moniker inflation is good like pretty super. We're going to be like created the entire internet by themselves. Yeah, KC Can we say the unispeutably? This is the most listened to stand up in the entire world. Good point prove us wrong This is the greatest most listened to stand up of all time It's the only stand up people look forward to listening to every week. There you go. Yep Okay, what is our first time I buy a great question Casey. All right So wait, you know what I just realized I actually know what the first topic is so I can go ahead and introduce it

1:49 Okay, let's do it the first the first topic for today is actually that this is The six-month anniversary nope, not that Oh, no This is the anniversary of Teage being 100% wrong about the apple sling for the phone. I marked it on my calendar He said in six months, you're gonna see this and I said nope in six months Nobody in the United States will be wearing this thing literally even no one and it is in fact no one Go Casey because I got tagged someone saw it in the wild and tagged me like a guitar center AI Ron the police AI fabrication Don't know this is what he's talking about. It's called the apple Holy cow, this is just so weird. It's called the apple sling and this thing was marketed for like

2:51 60 bucks or seven bucks and the idea was that you'd wear yourself one on the side now TJ or Casey trash and I laughed about it. There's ain't no way anybody's ever gonna use that TJ on the other hand said SF is gonna be filled to the brim with Child will have one of these slings on I didn't even see one in SF. Okay. I'm I'm pissing it in chat right now prime Okay, it's what I assume yep, yep, twitch chat right now. So we know so that was it That was the entirety of the topic. We don't need to discuss it further. I just wanted it recognized Well, look at that. There's no one wants this. That is one in the wild. That's the person They stole one of them. They probably gave it away. They probably gave it away

3:43 To use his phone once because when you do it on your body, it's probably a little inconvenient Here we see the elusive programmer a simple creature that spends most of its time working alone often in darkness Well, what's this? Someone being wrong in the internet our coder springs into action reaching top speeds of 120 words per minute before flash A light moat website the natural enemy of these code lovers stuns our friend the chase is called off we'll have to get them next time When not on their computers, they can spend hours drawing crude symbols and something they call whiteboards Researches have discovered thousands of darkness often with more than a dozen use than a single office However, no linguists is yet deciphered what their purpose is

4:28 Vane creatures their bodies have evolved over a millennia to be able to sit in unusual postures while looking at themselves on mom This will often last for many hours using the excuse. They're waiting for code review the press to why they're so inactive And finally after a long day of accomplishing very little our keyboard warriors ready for bed quick reading its lights out Good night little coder So how do I sleep so well at night? Well, I have sent you to help me crush those bugs And I'm not I'm not talking about like little team tennis South Dakota bugs that die in the winter I'm talking about big mean jungle bugs and I'm not scared of any of them by the way just But I can squash those bugs with sear by sensory

5:14 All admit I was wrong. I guess I you guys more correctly estimated The sanity of apple developers. I under underestimate or apple buyers I thought for sure that because it was stupid. They were good to buy it Maybe can we say can we say Maybe in a different economy maybe in a different but I think it was just that No, we can't because apple's whole thing is they try to sell products to people based on the cachet like they are they have a brand image And this is totally counter to it in the US anyway Maybe in other you know, maybe there's other cultures where this like was kind of more of a thing that people did And they're just you know, it's for that it's for those Regions or something and that's fine

6:06 But in the US I was like this doesn't fly because apple has a brand image And this is so far away from that image. It's exactly like the vision pro I don't even know why the company shipped it's baffles my baffling It blows my mind because it's completely baffling And it's something that I can't imagine happening if like if if the ghost of Steve Jobs We're still haunting the headquarters, which apparently it's not He is definitely about 30 bucks 30 bucks when you move on these summer olds, but So anyway, that's it Now the actual first to pick up the stand up the actual for let me let me do a quick intro here The actual first top round three is gonna have to be TJ Trash and Casey guesses What does LinkedIn have to say now? I'm gonna say a phrase

6:54 I had to fire teach now before I show it to you what is The LinkedIn translation of I had to fire teach what is this mean linked in translation? Yes, I got it linked in translator that takes my normal phrase in a fire and transforms it into LinkedIn I got like a five paragraph post. Yeah, it's gonna be really long like This is one of the hardest decisions that we've had to make But the you know the company is strong and this only puts us in a stronger position Teach was a very valuable employee and did a lot of great things and we're really looking forward to what he does next That's great trash. I'll say I'll think in more of like something happens in real life So it's like I went to the bagel store, but the bagel person ended up burning my bagel

7:40 Which somehow remind me of teach burning down the code at work Which made me realize and reflect upon his recent performance And now I had to hashtag lay him off Some some I was good. I was going more with Tejas been my best friend since we founded this company. We've been through hard times We've been through good times. We've worked together. He came to my wedding. I went to his He's the godfather of my child Unfortunately for him it's time to grind even harder hashtag grind hashtag hard and And so to do that in the age of AI I have an agent that says you are teach and you are good enough to do exactly what he did for me So I laid off my technical co-founder and we're shipping 10,000 lines of code a day by my course below

8:31 To also ship like this Wow, all right to tell you the truth it was in fact kacy who did the good job today I'm sharing one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make as a leader I've got the part ways with my co-founder teach growth isn't always a straight line And sometimes the hardest part of the journey is realizing when paths needed diverge to protect a long-term vision of the company It's about radical candor Making tough calls and saying true to the mission I'm incredibly grateful for the lessons during this chapter Onward and upward hashtag leadership hashtag founder life hashtag growth mindset tj That's a tj point and So I didn't know they were hashtag obsessed that they are the biggest fan

9:20 This is why I can't be on that website because I vomit in my mouth a little bit Just all right, well this was inspired about that due to this post which was unironically put on here Which is Michael and I are separating romantically. We're not breaking up as co-founders And we're not stepping away dot dot dot. I never got the actual fault. No No That's not real that is a real quick question. Did that guy happen to make an app about tracking when your wife leaves the dishes in the sink?

9:51 Yes Oh my gosh I love the idea of like instead of saying I broke up or we're getting divorced It's like uh, we're announcing a change in our chief bedroom officer The CBO we are we are currently going into a phase where we're going to search for our new chief bedroom officer We have a lot of pros to candidates We want to make sure we find the right match I played on The next six That's the new tinder pickup line looking for a CBO. Yeah looking for a CBO All right, I'm not like like that. I like it. I'm I'm serving as interim CBO right now But it's not it's not long-term. I mean that interview process is crazy I am avoiding saying anything We're gonna actually get to the real first topic of the stand-up. I saw somebody on the internet post this right here

11:02 It's the complexity visualizer now. This was posted by stem explorer I presumably a Twitter account about exploring stem And they like the like the thing in the flowers? Yes I mean time to reach the deep for that pun because it was it was okay Ha, and so they gave us a complexity visualizer big oh notation race in which they have oh one oh then oh And log n n squared and then of course two to the end kind of like your classic situation now This reminded me immediately of when Casey had an absolute meltdown on the internet over the ball diagram Well, several videos we this is actually worse Yeah, this is actually worse. I didn't know get worse than the balls Well, it's kind of there's two different things so the meltdown over the ball video

11:52 I mean obviously like I always criticize ball videos Because classic known ball critic either yeah When developers feel the need to show their balls off to the entire world like that And I'm just I'm just sitting there going like that's a job for the CBO am I right? Yeah Chief ball officer Uh, well internet chief ball officer Ben Dickin who at this point is now infamous for these ball diagrams and Loves it by the way like he as far as I can tell he is he's leaning into the balls And and uh because you know, he posts them to get to get engagement like that's he you know, he's trying to do He's trying to get a rise at people to interact with his Social media and so like you know if people people saying these are awful is just as good as people saying they're bad

12:43 I assume I don't really know But anyway the problem with those ball diagrams You know you fundamentally opposed to med leading into ball diagrams No, what I'm saying is that he was leaning into it I'm not making a valued judgment if a man wants to lean into their balls Or or anyone's balls On social media that's entirely up to them in my opinion I don't think That we should be telling them what to do or not to do that's my opinion. That's just my opinion And I'm sticking to it. So anyway my problem with the balls was that there are a bad way to visualize data A But the reason but that happens a lot so that there's a lot of people who post their balls on the internet And it's just like okay this maybe the thing that they were posting was actually fine

13:31 They happen to want to show you their balls instead of just putting the data in a better format And I'm just like could you not do that because it's a really It's I understand it's eye catching and that's why you're doing it But it's a very bad way to visualize data and like there's even like you can literally go find Studies people have done where they've looked at how people like react to different ways of presenting data And motion is like one of the worst things to use to try and get people to conceptualize the differences between things Like humans are horrible at comparing like the rate of movement of things as compared to just the sizes of them, right So that makes sense Yeah, so it's just a bad idea for a chart. It's only good when you're trying to beat social media engagement

14:16 Which to be fair like I said I think Ben Dickin knows so he's kind of off the hook in a sense for that part of it So really because that's what he was trying to do and that's fine The reason I was so grumpy about those is because the data was wrong The thing that they were bit the true Ben Dickens data is usually also wrong, right?

14:35 So he makes a repository He invites people to contribute to the repository the contributions are terrible generally speaking They're just all over the map and then digraphs them as if they compare like language performance, but they don't at all, right? And so it's just not like it's it's bad. It's misleading and that's why I get upset about that the balls are kind of you know insult to injury if you will like oh now I got to look at balls while I see this bad data It's like you know Just makes things worse So I wanted to clear that up first This is something completely different This is like they posted a graph that literally doesn't show the thing at all It is very very true I've been struggling trying to figure out the meaning behind it for a while

15:25 I was so tilted when he was like I saw the first one and I was just like I stopped looking like constant time is just a wave like this I'm like what should just be like a line right like what I don't understand at all I have no idea what it's even graphing like I have literally no idea none. I don't know how they I don't know how they came up with complicity visualized Casey says right It says right there Casey. It's pretty obvious Well, I mean, you know if I can't see because of course you know This is Riverside and so being able to see the thing. I can't read. I can't read any of that. Yep But like what's the top one oh oh one Okay, so so oh one it goes and then what's the what's the next one

16:12 Uh log n log n and the next one with is n log n maybe No, it's just n this is linear. Oh, okay. We skipped n log n all right then n log n No, then n log n because it's slower right okay radically it's slower Then n squared and then two to the n so each one is like progressively worse by an order of complexity Understood okay with the couple complexity skipped So the more squiggles the worse Yeah, the more so it's the part of the squeal how long it takes to move from one side to the other but the squiggles are useless Yes, correct the What I was trying to do is count them. I'm like do the do the squiggles even go in a pattern that has to do with like what the n was It doesn't even look like that

16:56 I couldn't because they erased the squiggly so if you were supposed to deduce the squiggle density It's being erased actively actively because like the top one So if that's oh one then the constant would have to be like three right because there's three squiggles So and we know that n is one so you know the constant would have to be three If the next one is log n right We assume the constant is still three probably I mean I guess there's no reason to think that the constant was still be three I suppose but I just I just try to figure out is there any way to make this line up I suppose you could say well the constant changes at each time and that's where the squiggles. I don't know I literally don't know I can't figure any way any thought went into so the thing that really just grinds my gears

17:41 Is that constant time Theoretically it does not matter upon the input Right, it's just about whatever the coefficient is next to the constant time that really takes a constant part in constant That's the constant part in constant and so the fact that it takes about half the speed is log n Really bothers me because constant is a fixed kind of like operating time where it's log n depends on how much input there is Yeah, and so you can't actually make any sort of relational guess between constant and log n But in this one they're saying it It's about 60 percent Right On average constant time is about Our log n time is about 60 percent as fast as constant time on average The time every time No, we got average

18:29 So much and then the the other part that really gets me is that at the very end When they're kind of finishing everything up uh 2 to the n exponential time and quadratic time exponential times like 20 or 15% through and quadratic time is like 95% way through yep, yep So it's just like that is not true even in the slightest right it's like at at at n of 10 Exponential time is 10 times larger at n of 11 exponential times 100 times larger than n squared at 12 It's a thousand times larger like none of this makes any sense and just driving me just completely insane This has to be ii generated. There's no way. I assume it is Well, they wrote code to generate no no Oh, did they this is not a i generated in the sense that someone came up with this idea and told a i to generate it

19:20 I am so positive that if you told a i like hey generate the differences between these times it would have done a standard graph It would have been more accurate. It would have been this Yeah, exactly Yeah, which I'm looking at that. I'm looking at it and I'm like, but which one takes longer I can't even tell because where is the ball moving across right right right i can't even tell Oh my gosh, sorry, I was I just so but that's kind of the point to you, right?

19:51 Like so one of the important things about complexity is that it doesn't tell you how long something takes You can have an oh one algorithm that takes a lot longer than an oh n algorithm for some n This is a classic array versus set lookup when you're doing stuff This is just how it is and so the that's the point of understanding like If you try to convey to somebody that oh n is faster than oh n log n or something like that You're conveying incorrect information because it's not faster or slower. It scales worse, right?

20:27 There's a difference between those things and so you need like Even showing anything that implies that there's a speed difference between them is wrong Right out of the gate because complexity is not about telling you how fast something ran And that's critical to understand it's so critical that actually in In shipping code in deployment sometimes you will use algorithms that have worse Scaling complexity when you know what the n is because the scaling complexity doesn't matter because the n is low And the constants too high on the scaling version right On the on the lower complexity or so you can have times people deploy an n squared algorithm instead of an n log n algorithm You can have people to play an n log n algorithm instead of a no n algorithm and so on and so forth

21:12 That will absolutely happen not because the person didn't know what they're doing Because that was actually the right choice for the scale of problem they were working on Uh quick classic example quicksword often for the last few elements Will switch to insertion sort because it's actually faster to not quicksword on a bunch of small items due to the Stack invocation and recursion cost Comparatively to the n squared algorithm worse or standard case average case of insertion sort I don't even know uh, well quicksword quicksword is n squared Uh quicksword worst case is n squared quicksword average case is n log n And so often inside of those it also with merge sort you'll break into an insertion sort at the very bottom because it is just better

21:53 And so there's a classic example where scaling actually doesn't You know is is traded off in the middle just because of size I was thinking to prime of like uh when we talked to tiger beetle a while ago Of how they like all of their like so many places in the code they have like some assert about the size of how big something Because they're also like loading all of it ahead of time and I was but So it's like you just say hey I think that this thing should never get over 200 elements or a thousand elements Like it's cool because then you can pick something that works really good where n is less than a thousand It's like it's really fast at that thing And then later if that invariant breaks you find out because you have a debug failure like some warning or something that happens in your system

22:36 That can then you're like oh okay cool So now apparently we have big enough customers that a thousand isn't always the case sometimes It's like 10 million for some reason or some we have some pathological customer That does this so we got to go fix that separately, which I thought was really cool This actually me also just John Carmack does John Carmack if you don't know does the exact same thing in doom in a bunch of other places He would assert like the world can't have more than like 3000 items That's just a that's just a reality of life. We would make all of our decisions based off this one thing Mm-hmm There's also cases where you know that there's a limiting factor on the other end Like for example if you're like look this thing is designed for a 10 gigabit you know ethernet uplinks

23:16 So there you go like I know I know how much data is flowing through this thing And it can't ever be more than that because we don't have you know and we're we will we will fundamentally redesign this part of the code If we switch to you know a higher bandwidth connection or something like that right right or this street like We know that we're shipping on this console that only supports 1080p So that's how many pixels are on the screen like we know that a particular region of the screen can only have this many pixels So we're making decisions based on that like so you can definitely have situations to where you even just know You're just like look for the deployment scenario We actually guarantee there is no physical way that it can have a different thing

23:52 And at that point you are free to make all kinds of decisions based on and because you know what it is But okay, so then now how do I know what transpires? So which one is faster A lot of people like Complexity is one of those things where it's like the It's kind of a I guess since we were talking about diagrams of and balls and all that Complexity theory is definitely one of those things that I feel like is a just the tip kind of Thing in computer science where it's like Do you need to know complexity theory a lot of people ask this question right like do I need to know complexity theory to like be a programmer You absolutely don't need to know complexity theory because complexity theory is like

24:35 Like okay, you know, how do you prove something is NP hard or something like like actually knowing complexity theory I don't know complexity theory. I don't I'm not gonna give you a dissertation on piece-based or some like forget it, right? It's not gonna happen Uh, you do you do need to know yeah, you do need to know just the tip you need to know like your basic like okay How do algorithm scale with and roughly in terms of how much memory they use and how much like uh how how many Concrete operations whatever that operation is will they have to do that something everyone should know Just for the basics like the ones that were on this diagram Probably not exponential because almost nobody uses exponential acceptance situations where so this this may be getting ahead of my

25:22 Out of my over my skis a little bit, but I would say that in general if you're in the realm of exponential time So you're thinking of things that are like two to the end complexity or worse At that point you may start wanting to know more complexity like yeah like at that point You're in the in the realm of hardcore algorithm design where you probably want to know more than just the basics because you're in You're gonna start needing to know things about heuristics heuristic based algorithms randomized algorithms Things that are like not commonly thought about very much in you know in work a day programming circles So once you are doing something that's beyond n squared or n cubed and you're you know out of polynomial time at that point

26:04 You you may want to know more But everything below that I'd say is adjust the tip situation case you weapon if you haven't a salesman Okay, and he wants to start in rabbit city South Dakota Okay, I'm listening exactly what I that's exactly what I was thinking of in my head when I said that because like Those kinds of problems require a deeper understanding of algorithm design and the ways that we attack problems that are sort of technically Infeasible like like theoretically you can't really solve this problem Officially, but we've come up with lots of ways to You know, yeah, maybe not get the best answer But get a good enough answer that can be used for humanity to do it's whatever it was trying to do

26:45 Can we prove That we will we will get the best answer every time no, but we can get like close right and that's you kept the kind of start to know That sort of thing right By the way, just I know we're getting we're slightly off but uh FedEx and UPS and USPS they all have an actual NP problem, which of course has been packing because if you have x amount of boxes and you have y amount of containers And you need to be able to most efficiently pack these boxes, especially along a route now you also have like multiplexing diktras along with With bin packing very very crazy. I mean they actually have a really hard and interesting algorithm to solve I mean even just basic things like your your uh schooled what is going on prime

27:32 Oh my god, that will literally break my teeth off my mouth That's true That's a nice crust on that prime is good. It's good. I just want to taste it you know That's gone If you just think about like your local school district What the bus routes are and which order they go in that already is like there are companies who specialize in solving that problem because it you need Heuristic salt like you can't if you even just the number of students in your district being 500 or whatever it is Is enough to start to make it be like we can't we can't guarantee you a perfect solution like sorry Like that's just out of out of the bounds So we have to do like things that you know taken to account that we have

28:16 You know that we don't have to get it perfect in order for it to be good enough and all these are the sorts things at my School KC they they wrote that down on the whiteboard they leave it overnight see if anybody can figure it out any janitors walking behind Yes, so we you know we always look and I don't know last time I looked at that sort of stuff it was kind of generally expected that Look a lot of these kind of problems you can get very close to optimal solutions You just they're certain like they have these regions of their of their sort of solution space that are just extraordinarily hard And so if the input data happens to fall in those areas you are kind of screwed if it falls outside of those areas

29:03 Then it's okay and you'll get you know you'll typically get the solution you were looking for right so Anyway, my point when all of that was just to say if that's the kind of thing you're doing you should know you should know no more than me About complexity at that point and you should know more about than me about like how you go about solving those kind of problems with you know Heuristic approaches randomized approaches things like that because there's an entire theory of randomized algorithms It's very interesting actually, but it's like I don't know it and a lot of programmers don't know it Because it doesn't come up that often Are you ready for a are you ready for part two so can we say goodbye to our squiggles our heart heartbeat die

29:38 We can all at least agree heartbeat diagram Terrible for complexity visualization Yeah, I mean, I think what this really is is an open challenge to Bendic and it was like what True we can like STEM Explorer has bested you at every possible access Not only is the diagram even worse than the bouncing balls But it also is literally not graphing anything even related to the subject right so I think that's what I just Repost this. I think I said something like your move Bendic and because I feel like I feel like at this point He has been so thoroughly dethroned That like he needs to come he needs to come back and hit hard here I agree His standard ball diagram is not gonna do it like he has been shown up

30:29 Like significantly and you know what it's gonna it's gonna be sad if he comes out with something and it's not good enough to get on the pod Ben Okay, so Ben if you're out there listening we need something big from you all right. Yeah, the squad here We're looking q1 that's gonna be you have to deliver by the end of q2 But we need it in q1 at the very you know, yeah, that's kind of what I'm talking The world is watching bandic and so we're all is blocked They want to see your response to this because STEM Explorer came out of the gate here first time and just absolutely crushed it I'm having a dax moment over here The one thing I will say about the ball diagram whether you hate it or not if the data was accurate

31:09 At least there was some level of like meaning you could kind of Gather from and go oh, yeah, I can see this one's slower and that one's faster by how much and all that you couldn't really gather This one I can't gather any there's there's actually no information here Why why are the squiggles erasing on I was I was gonna try to find a moment to say that I it's really bothers me that they end that are getting vacuumed up there. Yeah, there's no budget There's no budget for uh to keep them going. I just really hate that they break at the end like that Right like I mean there's because it doesn't what each one of them as they get to the end it like wigs out Oh, no, that's the I'm done mark. That's like I finished

31:53 All right, all right, we can move on um All right, let me let me get back here just in case we want to cut this as a separate segment. I got to do like a better intro There we go You know on the stand-up we like to come together and discuss Some things that very important people say that Make everybody else super upset and this is just one of those moments where what I've just read somehow is The most infuriating complisolth I've ever received and I'm sure many people have ever received in their lifetime And of course I'm talking about mr. Sammy jippity altman right here saying I have so much gratitude To people who wrote extremely complex software character by character It already feels difficult to remember how much effort it really took

32:38 Thank you for getting us to this point Mm-hmm. Oh, okay, so Sam pour on up for the course Pack it up. We are done Uh, but I do I really do love this idea that there is no more complex software because hidden in this statement Is that they're like software complexity is now officially over solved It's actually solved That's why cloud code doesn't flicker anymore, right?

33:07 This is why GTA 6 supposedly will release this year like there is a room that it's coming Yeah, I mean I don't it It's like almost this is this is similar these two topics are feel very related to me Right because the previous one was like let's have a competition to see who can post the worst graph Right was like kind of what that was right And this it's like it seems like that AI people are doing like let's have a competition to see who like people will dislike the most Right like like how do I become some someone that literally no one likes at all and It's worth noting that it's like including your customers like a like They don't even want to be liked by the people who are using their software or they don't know that like

33:59 I mean unless they're really this unaware that they don't see how insulting that is to even people who are actively using their software currently um I just it's crazy it bogged like I don't even know if I have a comment on that I don't know what to say about this. It's like it's shocking. I've got a hypothesis KC which is that You know they sort of feel like they already won and you know how when you beat a video game You can play it back on like expert mode or like we've I'm afraid it's inspired to climbing my ascension rakes Okay, and each time it adds like more difficulty right like start with a curse you don't heal all the way etc Um, I feel like this is kind of like okay Well, we already made like a trillion dollars. Can we do it now if nobody likes us right?

34:40 So that's right right so they're they're heaping those things on they're like I'm gonna win biggest company in the world on ascension 20 open AI edition that's I think that that's probably So you think at the beginning like like Sam Altman, you know for this round of starting a company It like it popped up those little like pick which card you want right it was a road like right yes And one of them was get a lot of money from people, but nobody likes you And any pick like that was the that was the modifier that he chose to play the whole thing on exactly Yes, right, and then like round one was like it had three options. It was like start a non-profit It was like okay, here's a few forks in the road one was like continue the non-profit everyone like you trying to make something for the benefit of humanity

35:29 Option two was make a ton of money Whenever I read this tweet I had like a visualization of my head as like as I was reading it as him like saying this But he was escorting like some old person off the stage Like kind of just giving them this back can't comment and then just kicking them off the stage and then it was like Here's the real show kind of thing like because this is a stuff. I tweeted this too But this is like the exact well at least my emotional response was This is a message of like when you lay somebody off like thank you for all your hard work at the company He linked in post in it Dude like legit and I was just like man Like when you're typing these things if he is the one typing these things like does he just hit send like that's a good tweet

36:11 We're gonna love that one like how like what what is that scene look like I would love to just see like surveillance of him posting this I think Is that he's I think he and like Zuckerberg and a few of these people fall into what is known as the lizard category And so I genuinely believe that he was just like you know what There was a lot of people who I've taken all of their work from and then making the biggest company in the universe ever I need to thank those people I'm gonna thank him right now here we go boys and like God has teamed together like okay hold on Oh, man, it was so complex step by step. Oh my gosh Character but dude. Yeah, it's like honestly. It's hard to even remember how hard that was

36:55 Does he know how hard like does he has he ever shipped anything that was like Blue blue what is what is that is? Oh, okay pause I'll do I'll do a brown bag lunch on this in a little okay You did brown bag world coins. I do feel like you have to brown bag world world All brown bag looped for you later case. Okay. We'll bring you up to speed on that make sure room rings their own lunch Accenture lunch will not be provided just want to make that clear. Yeah, but I will be providing presentation for that. Yeah, all right All right Yeah, I don't know this is just really bizarre to me and it doesn't So I think I actually talked about Dmitry I talked to Dmitry about something like this at one point He was obviously on the podcast last week

37:44 talking about AI stuff and The way he said it I don't want to misrepresent in here, but he I asked in this question. I was like Given that AI companies will face like a bunch of lawsuits regulatory hurdles things like this like So they will run into the bureaucratic elements of society And they will have to navigate those right um and and I'll point out They also will have to navigate things that are worse than that so uh, you know I don't want to say anything that will get us Marked badly on YouTube, but let's just say that like A data center is a pretty easy target for civil unrest. I'll put it that way right true So there's a lot of things that you want if if you were really serious about this

38:28 We're like I want to make a company that does this AI stuff and I want to make sure that it succeeds and does well There's a lot of things you would care about with respect to public opinion And you would never say any of the things that Sam Altman says ever right if you were Sam Altman And you had any self-awareness you would not appear in public you would have somebody else Who was your person who appears in public and it would never be you That's what you would do right because nobody likes him and when he opens his mouth he says things that make people very angry The general public right now talking about programmers We're never talking about like the general public when they hear from Sam Altman

39:03 They really don't like it you was room recently just had another one where we talked about how If you compare the the cost of trading in AI to how much a human consumes the AI is actually better like no one should ever say like If you care about this as actually getting this thing adopted you would never say anything like that right yes Because because you should you should have someone out there who Understands how human how actual humans Proceeds things right which is not Sam Altman. That's that lizard thing. I was telling you about it Lizard things you're right about same Mrs. Zuckerberg They just they have fundamentally no idea what a human is like Even though they've seen them before they just aren't sure what they do right they're like huh

39:47 and so And so to me I was like why is that like how did and how does no one else step in and go like because I mean you know When you're looking at a company like open AI with these investors putting billions of dollars in it someone would Theory come along and be like Sam thanks for all your hard work. You're not going to be the they're going to they'd Palmer lucky him Like they did it Facebook right they're like you don't get to talk to the public anymore We're you know we're replaced like that kind of thing happens all the time for reasons that are strictly about appearances or public You know person what is that reference? I sorry. I don't know the Palmer lucky thing at all Lucky uh well, you know again trying not to get into politics too much Palmer lucky was on the

40:29 Politically wrong side of an issue early on when his company Oculus was acquired by Facebook now meta Uh, they weren't obviously met at the time because they were just acquiring Oculus uh and he was basically forced out of A leadership position there and he ended up leaving the company and that was And he was the like to be clear wonder kid front of magazines super like He was on the cover of high magazine everywhere Yeah, I do remember him being Like everything it wasn't just like oh like some random guy got fired like he's he was the wonder kid for them He was like Jimmy Neutron is like my expectation of him He was actually like a very talented individual that was like Way out there when it comes to talent and building stuff. Yeah

41:17 Well, whatever you think about him he got forced out. Yeah, right like he like no one disagrees with that I don't think that's not a controversial thing say like he did not voluntarily decide to leave Facebook and their VR division because he just wasn't feeling it that day He got for like he was forced to leave Uh the division that he was you know that he had That was his entire thing he wanted to do like this was the thing that he started in his bedroom doing right He wanted to see if you could use phone displays and stuff like that to produce a real VR headset now was the technology Ready, right and here he was getting the opportunity to do that and he got forced out for political reasons So something as simple as that you can force someone out

41:58 They're not forcing Sam Altman out right nobody's telling Dario just to keep his mouth closed, right? And so and my questions are pretty funny these days My question was why This is why I was asking I asked me just like why like what's going on there because Surely the investors realize that it's better for this right and what he said was Possibly somewhat convincing actually what he said was they have two choices is what he said to me One is they garner public support Or the other is they garner investor support and they went with investor support and what he meant by that was If you tell a story about how AI is just going to be beneficial for everybody and that people won't be losing their jobs

42:49 And that it will just be like oh, it'll be easier to get your work done or whatever it is whatever the publicly We're just empowering artists. We're not taking their jobs That can't raise the level of investment that you can from private investors if you tell them you're putting everyone out of work So he said they had two choices One was to go and say that we're putting everyone out of work And we're basically going to be a Priya because everyone's going to pay us and no one's going to pay anyone else And raise their trillion dollars Or they could actually say something positive But they wouldn't be able to raise that kind of money because it doesn't sound like you're replacing the entire industry with one computer

43:24 And they chose the one that gets them the investment and I was like okay That's That's a pretty reasonable That's a pretty reasonable way to say that That could very well be the case That makes a lot of sense So you think about it that way at all So you Well, this is why it's great to talk to Dimitri right?

43:44 So why I'm doing that podcast is because he has a lot of really interesting things to say and he knows these I can't Yeah He knows those people like he's interacted with a lot of these people personally He knows a lot of them in in that field And so he has like some perspective on why they do what they do It's like yeah, so they could replace Sam Altman With somebody who was much more appealing to the public and maybe they will after they secure right enough trillions of dollars Then you're like okay, thanks. Thanks Sam right Now let's put a nice face on this thing then they hire Matthew McConaughey exactly That's who I would Yeah, I like DJs Matthew McConaughey, that's the solution to this I'm telling you you guys see him in the Lincoln commercials

44:29 I mean he seems like a guy who you would trust Yeah, no, it's like that makes sense to me I like believe that they're in that trust him Oh, okay, you can be like you can be like I don't stress the bathroom guy could like I don't stress about it I just asked chat GPT that's what I'm saying you'd be like he's so right. Yeah, he's so right So right just ask chat GPT I can't wait Matthew McConaughey gets hired by open AI you guys are gonna you guys are gonna eat your Words right here trash. Okay. I mean I love Matthew McConaughey too man. It's Matthew McConaughey Yes, there he's gonna legally change his name like like like uh like um Oh, uh will I am did right to the dots. Oh, no Great Casey nice pull deep pull right? Yeah, remember when you made a smart watch no one does I do

45:20 Uh Shakira these chips don't lie Oh, come on I can't think of anything Don't be crazy. I can't sit in here right now I'm actually slightly shocked that will I am hasn't announced an AI company Maybe he hasn't it didn't make it up, but that would be so something he would do right black eyed peas right Originally, yes, but didn't he had as a solo. Yeah, yeah Career what's gonna make sure I'm thinking of the same person. Yeah, I have no idea who that is to pay the truth Okay, I need to make a prime there's an area that you probably missed out on because you know Maybe you're not quite as old as I am, but There was an era where companies especially internet companies Uh, but not exclusively like companies like intel for example

46:13 Had sort of brand ambassador positions And these were people who were like enthusiastic about technology But didn't really have all that much to do with it Will I am was one Shinghi does anyone remember shinghi That sounds familiar. Are you gonna say shinghi nope shinghi He was he was an experimental artist Who was like a brand ambassador for I can't even remember which company but one major company like you let pack Or I don't remember who it was But like and they would produce these videos that were just like you know Them talking about how cool technology is but non-specifically This was the whole thing that happened and there's more I'm not remembering them all There's several other celebrities who were like in that vein and you're just like what is going on

47:02 But that was just it was cool for a while in like the early 2000s to have like this pseudos like it's usually be list like it's not you know I'm not trying to get who the alistair is it's not Jennifer Lawrence who is right It's not a list celebrity someone who's like launching a major much picture just below like B tier Somebody that people have heard of but it's not you know prime like prime Dude, that'd be so good dude. I definitely do that dude healer Packard printer I got all these things I got all these things Speaking of name of color right now. I got it Prime can I tell the story about what happened on the call for nothing but net Sure, I don't even know what the story is but you could you could

47:51 What does remind me of you saying healer Packard and like we all call it HP and you'd like not knowing acronyms So we're doing an event next week with century In at the chase center, which is where golden state warriors play Need to go to a game afterwards. We're going to do something very fun. It's going to be a surprise actually We can't tell you what our actual thing is. I'll tell you Casey afterwards Oh secret details. Sorry chat. You're not Only I get to know. Yeah, and me. Yeah, or they have to come and personally might get kicked out He's provided like 15 minutes into the call with them and there's someone from golden state on the call Centuries on the call me and primer on the call they have said things like you know

48:36 The GSW staff will do this or like you know to go through GSW this blah blah They've said the the acronym GSW about 35 times at least and we're 15 minutes into the call and finally prime goes So what is GSW I had no idea. Yeah, it's not like graphic software Yeah, I didn't know I did you guys were doing it there. That's crazy. Oh My goodness and we're on the call like you say we've been talking about the warriors We've been talking it's not like we were surprised about what NBA team is at the place Golden state. What is the goals at New Jersey? What is the golden state?

49:24 I don't know that acronym. What's golden state golden state? That's it's the San Francisco team Oh, god, Steph Curry. Okay, golden state. That's even better. I don't know basketball at all. That's fine. Oh, I miss. Oh crap I missed my chance again. I was supposed to say something like I don't follow hockey I thought you were gonna say something like I never watch moving balls on the screen. I hate that crap Yeah All right, so golden state warriors is the San Francisco basketball team. Yeah, I believe we're possibly the greatest player ever Yes I do want to hey I in my own personal defense. I would like to say That's what my strengths That I am willing to ask any question that part was good. I was proud of you

50:19 I was proud of you that you asked even though it was like awkwardly late into the call It was just yeah, I thought I could just pick it up. I thought I could just pick it all to say That it wasn't at once. I'll probably get the second hand to use the second I'm like I really don't understand it from this context. I here we go It just cracked me up because it was like We're just it happened to be if it was just sentry and not someone from golden state warriors I wouldn't have even laughed for thought it was that funny, but it was just because we had someone from the org of aircraft That's like a record scratch a moment They didn't care. They thought it was funny. Hey man. It's better than me not knowing which that like like think it like oh new jersey

50:58 Like I don't think anyone for San Francisco was to be told they live in New Jersey. Yeah, yeah, they're offended by that Right, it's like where is this team from? It's like New Jersey or something. It's like no, it's San Francisco It's like oh, well slightly Here's something I would like to share with everyone Since you brought up Hewlett Packard great. I just want to underscore it for the all the young people out there Which is like everyone in chat A lot of people don't remember Because or because there were two they were like in diapers at this time I just want to point this out just to underscore how much this industry changes in a relatively short period of time If you were to say today I've got a brand new CPU brand new chip coming get hyped everyone. I've got a brand new chip coming

51:55 from Hewlett Packard Literally nobody would be like oh Wow, like I can't wait to see or mostly would just be like what like what are you talking about like they don't do they're just like They're like Dell or something. They're just you know, they just they make like printers or monitors I don't even know what they make doesn't matter right Hewlett Packard was actually the partner Them and Intel were the two people who were supposed to have designed the chips that you would be using today When x86 was going to move from 32-bit to 64-bit They announced that the way that would happen was the thing called project itanium And the itanium was made by architected by Hewlett Packard and Intel as a joint venture

52:44 They were the people because Hewlett Packard was like a big team in computing at that time. Wow, right? Remember HP Yeah, and the entire thing fell apart and did not end up producing chips that anyone wanted because the only reason people are on it x86 is for backwards compatibility So itanium was not at all what they had in mind And so that was like the last The last there was of Hewlett Packard being like a big player like if if that had happened They would be a company you'd be thinking of today as like major CPU player potentially, right?

53:18 But as it is now, they're just completely forgotten like no one cares about sorry hb I'm sorry If you would hire a B-list celebrity, I don't know who I got a hp printer right behind me I was thinking if hp wants to get into the chip game Yeah, they just start making new snacks and send them to trash. Yeah, that'll get them on them I use my hp printer every day I just had a I just had a vision of like of like a trash going to hot chips like trash going to hot chips 2027 and being like there's no snacks here at all. This is the worst conference ever. This is terrible Like you guys don't know she snacks at every conference is always bad. I'm just gonna say that now. Yeah, that's true Hotchips and you should get a booth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the best chips out there

54:11 You want a stand-up booth where we just hand out snacks. Yeah, oh Those hard dude tackled tired silicon chips wired corn chips. That's that's what we're talking about here guys Well, it's pop pop corn chips now or something. I don't know what trash pop corners pop corners. Yeah I'm earths. Well at the end of the day This tweet sucked. I personally think Casey Yeah, the reason why he tweets this stuff is the same reason why Elon must tweet stuff and then the same reason why Trump tweet stuff Okay, and all those people do which is what is it uh that nobody can tell them no And they just are like this is who I am I'm dying and they just go out there and whatever comes to their mind is what's going out on the internet

55:00 And that's just that and you just get stream of Conscious whether you love it or hate it. That's what you're getting baby. I mean it could be it could be I don't know I mean I have to think that most people Are trying to when they're communicating to the public they're trying to communicate In a way that gets the the reaction that they wanted usually right like Even if that reaction is I was trying to piss someone off Right, but I don't know. Maybe they're not like maybe Sam Altman really just doesn't have any idea Like or doesn't think about the fact that people were react to things. I feel like for a lot of people that tweet played well I mean for people in eight By the numbers 33,000 likes, but is that isn't that just kind of generally what

55:50 Tweets from Sam Altman get? I don't think so. I don't know Thousands a lot, but we can we can we can do some slew thing 2000 2000 I've just I think like for people Eleven people in AI particularly let's say that is so much high. Yes, disproportionately very high compared to all of these Well 12k that one I guess was popular. I don't know what it was yeah 10k I'm saying people who come into 34 they're doing their first coding thing ever They're doing other stuff. They're not even they're not software developers right like That they don't it's they don't have any respect like for the craft or like who came before you know in the sense of like What and why should they right like and that doesn't make any sense that would be weird for us to just be like

56:36 Yeah, you guys should really know who John Carmack is and why he was awesome at programming and like all this stuff and what I was like They don't it's just like it's cool that I mean that's it also it's cool that I could talk to my computer And it can make something even if it's bad that's dope right so like okay We'd separate out the fact that like I don't necessarily like maybe how they got some of it or some of the people or the companies or their Legislation or whatever but like it's sick that I can talk to the computer and be like make it purple make it in a purple theme No mistakes and change the website to purple and then I'm like Rounded corners and it makes rounded corners that is put it in a box and then another box in a box in a box

57:14 I want every day have to have a border and three pixels of spacing so I know AI made that this web page okay Markey tab Markey tab so that part you know like that part is cool I feel like for people who aren't like hey say I'm gonna like screw in maybe like there's some aspects where we're moving too fast You're screwing over the profession you guys are like putting out a lot of slop you're giving people the wrong Expectations whatever if you don't have those like preconceived notions for it That is like a nice tweet saying like hey guys. Thanks for helping us get here like we're excited for the future I got you know like for people who have a different background. I feel like that's how you would take it

57:49 If yeah, I mean it could be just a case of like addressing a specific audience at the expense of another audience right Just being fine with that right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean we're definitely the minority. Yeah, right There's way less people that have written code before AI that that will make some code artifact after AI exists like that's Probably already true just because like people try random stuff on the websites, but yeah, right I mean because it could just kind of spit out code so you would think right. Yeah, looks like that's the stand-up any blockers Your code that I look at every day true cats trash rhyme real life Yeah, how much of my code do you actually run into I'm actually like deep in your code wait which one

58:29 Oh, I'm doing like TTR stuff right now Well, that's not a good sign. That's not a good sign. I'm gonna rewrite it all Yeah, go for it. Please not I didn't I didn't design the current one that the TTR concept was mine How it works and loads like say for evolution and for mdp versus We can all that secrets right now. Uh, that is all that was that was a different person. I won't say his name, but that was a different person Good luck see any blockers Um, yeah, I don't want to talk about it Seems like you got to talk about it. You got you got something on your chest. Oh, it's the bad one. Yeah, let's get in the suit. I I think I've said on this podcast before Literally, I think I said it on this podcast, but I don't know maybe I maybe it was somewhere else

59:23 Uh, but I have said that the one time where I can relate to people who use AI is whenever I have to interact with like a Webstack of some kind that like right Because I'm just like yeah, I can totally understand why you just want to type in something like Figure out like, you know, whatever this random BS is that's like 50,000 text files of random config stuff, you know, half of which is ad hoc and uh, so I currently uh, I have to move a server from like an old server that was running like this little I wrote this little c program that just does our mailing list management for us But it has to hook up to a web server somewhere and like it was on a patchy And now it has to be on NGI and x For some reason and they don't support CGI bin. They only support fast CGI

1:00:20 So now I have to just go like relink the program with like a fast CGI library But of course, I've never looked at the fast CGI library before so like I don't love having co-chip that I haven't looked at and all this So that is currently what I get to do later this week for no reason. This is all useless work Right, that's why I say like I always relate to the people who like to use AI and that because I'm just like this is useless There's no there's no point to any of this. It doesn't accomplish anything It's literally just busy work to move something from one protocol to another with no value ad other than just that's what happens to be occurring on these servers Right I think you also said phrases such as CGI bin

1:00:58 That most people will have no idea what you what you're saying and the other people will shut her a little bit Yeah, so in the old old old days like wicked old days That was just how you got if you have a web server running and you wanted it to interface with like a C program that you'd compiled So you wanted to extend the behavior of the web server There was this protocol for like okay here is how we will invoke some executable on the drive And will you set environment variables to let it know what you know What the user had set up in the form that they were submitting to the CGI bin or whatever it was that you were doing right Um, and there's a lot of reasons why you wouldn't want to do that in like a serious scenario

1:01:42 The biggest one being that you're actually having to execute the you have to run the executable every time right So you know in other words there's a process that has to be started and so on So if you were thinking about trying to do something high bandwidth you wouldn't want to do this And so the way that they you know solved that problem for things that wanted to look like this is they created a thing called you know fast CGI Which was just like oh now we just run something and we'll just communicate With it by using like shared memory or something like this right you know we can Or packet passing or whatever you know we'll just have some way that we'll solve this problem So that the process stays running and so that's how you would do it today if you had if you have some program

1:02:22 That's like an external program But it's not it's not it's convenient because it's not really external anymore Right, it doesn't you now have to have that protocol baked in Um, it just sounds like a web server, but worse. It's just like hey here's a web server, but you need You don't even get HTTP just get like Oh Well, it's it's another way to look at it would be I Hey, you've got the you know, you want someone else to handle HTTPS for you because you don't want to re-implement TLS And you don't want to implement an ASN1 parser And you don't want to do that stuff right which is very understandable because that's a huge pain in the butt And it's constantly changing to they're like oh, you know

1:03:04 Like if you had done that back to TLS 11 and then they came out with one two and one three like now you're running back and upgrading your software to like The new cipher suites and all this other crap, right? So it's like it's a maintenance headache too So if you just wanted someone like NGNNGINX To do that for you But you would like to write the part of the code that does the rest Fast CGI is kind of a nice way to do it. You just go like all right I you know, but you could also do a plugin, you know NGNX has a plug-in architecture. You could use that. I don't know. I don't care about any of this stuff I'm just saying how it is. He's just blocked by it I just don't want to do it. I just don't like this kind of thing. It's annoying. Okay. Okay. Okay. TJ any blockers

1:03:47 Yeah, I'm about six months ago vegan bot promised be a funny edit of a video where There's a song where they interspersed goat screaming inside of a Taylor Swift song And I really my wife asked for that, but with a pan flute instead because that's Began's signature song for Her signature sound for as soon as songs and I'm still waiting for it I've been blocked on it literally for six months my wife regularly asks me about it And every time I'm on the phone with vegan she asks and he always says he's gonna get that to me soon tomorrow today I don't know he said but so I'm blocked on that so thanks if you're having trouble With your wife teege. I do think trash has a pretty good act he's been working on that should probably help with that result

1:04:35 All marital problems. Okay, because there won't be a marital If you worry No more problems of the marital variety I want to prime last week when I was at the office. I was like going through like Somehow I ended up on when your old PRs and it was you and Ben Mo And it was like some form anything you're like sorry. It's like you know Vim things you wouldn't get it and it just made me like crack up in the office just by myself I was like that's not exactly like prime Hey guys if you work at Netflix and you see trash make sure you say hello. He loves it. He does love it All right, also, hey, I have some lockers. I know I was gonna ask primates lockers primus blockers Yeah, yeah, yeah My blocker is that case. He needs to say edge and X correctly or

1:05:19 I don't lose the ginks for the rest of the day. I'm not gonna do it. NGNX. I'm not gonna say NGNX. I'm pretty sure it's pronounced nix That's what people are always talking. I'm saying the kinks. I'm not saying you it doesn't look like that to me I'd be like in ginks is like what I would actually say if I was to try and say it doesn't it doesn't look like you're saying every letter Huh NGNX. Yeah, NGNX. I guess it's not that terrible to say NGNX All right sounds more sophisticated like you say NGNX. It sounds like you're talking about some kind of like Municipal telephonic like telephone exchange or something like this, right? Like it's like. Oh, yeah NGNX like they started I call it and three new England areas telephone

1:05:58 service, right? Mine's n3x. That's what I like to call it game All right, well That's that Everybody get the hell out of here. Get to work. Okay. Don't buy good as we gotta get to work. Bye everyone Bye